Why We Can’t Sleep & How to Fix It with Dr. Shelby Harris

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They've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

Hey, Glennon, why were you late?

Because

I don't know if I can say this.

It's so gross.

The children have stolen all of my underwear so i am wearing a bathing suit under my clothes right now

look at this i'm wearing a bathing suit because it was either this or commando

so that's my life all my underwear is gone i'm also wearing a bra from college like maybe we could buy ourselves new bras one day

let's just record

okay but i am you guys wearing a bathing suit Like this is all real.

What happened to me this morning?

Bathing suits are uncomfortable.

Hi, hi everybody welcome to we can do hard things today is going to be a challenge of whether we can in fact do hard things because the hard thing we're talking about today is sleep yes abby's so excited i am

trepidacious

sleep is a word that brings up a lot of feelings for me because

It's been a challenge.

The word sleep even makes me feel a little bit.

I think it's like an achy loneliness because

because oh god when i am trying to sleep and i can't sleep and everyone's asleep

and i feel so

anyway i'm gonna stay here we are going to nail this we're gonna figure out how the hell to sleep today we have dr shelby harris who is a psychologist and sleep specialist who treats a wide variety of sleep anxiety and depression issues oh girl you are in the right place she is a columnist for the New York Times.

She is author of the book The Women's Guide to Overcoming Insomnia.

Dr.

Harris can be found on Instagram at sleep.Shelby, where she provides evidence-based information.

Oh, that's nice.

About sleep wellness and sleep disorders.

Welcome, Dr.

Shelby.

Oh, thank you for having me.

It is such a pleasure to be here.

Thank you.

Your work is focused on, quote, realistic wellness, which I just like that already.

I just like adding the realistic in there.

My first question to you is, how much sleep wellness is realistic for women?

Is it not much?

This is going to be a short episode, y'all.

That is a wonderful question.

And I think the problem in the field is that for years, we were very focused in sleep medicine on sleep disorders.

So people would come to us when they had issues with chronic insomnia, sleep apnea, narcolepsy, whatever it might be, that it was really making a big problem in their lives.

And then we still do the sleep disorder stuff.

It has taken the shift in the past like five to eight years towards this wellness idea.

And I think it's almost overshot the mark too much, where it's giving people this idea of perfection.

And

I mean, there are some people out there who are giving these sleep tips.

Their wake up times must be, their like routines must be two hours long.

And I'm thinking, who the heck has time to do this, to view the light at certain ways and certain times and to do all these things that is just not realistic for many people.

So it's about doing certain things to help where you feel well rested and refreshed most of the day, as often as you can, and trying to make little gains wherever you can so that you can then kind of work towards improving your sleep longer term.

Do you see being a woman as a preexisting condition

for not getting enough sleep?

I I mean, I'm just going to start this by telling you, and I'm not talking shit about Craig.

We laugh about this story all the time, but I'll never forget being at a little neighborhood thing when the kids were very little.

I was just like dripping with them.

They were probably five, three, and one.

And I was listening to Craig talk to our neighbors.

And one of the neighbors said,

How are you guys sleeping?

And Craig said, Well, you know what?

I'm just really lucky because Glennon just doesn't need that much sleep.

Oh my gosh.

Oh,

that's what they think.

Yeah.

Okay.

But it's interesting, you know, actually, when we look at research with women, women actually need a little bit more sleep.

And we're not talking hours more, but they need a little bit more sleep than men.

And the sleep they get when they do actually sleep, because then we have insomnia and all this stuff on top of it, it's actually deeper than men.

So this idea of women don't need as much.

No, it's just because we're functioning on all different levels all throughout the night, 24, seven.

And you said it was being a woman a preexisting condition in a way, and it kind of is.

So there's hormone changes.

And we see for in kids, the rates of insomnia, especially or trouble sleeping for boys and girls is exactly the same until they hit puberty.

Okay,

then it starts to become an issue.

And so it can be around your period.

Some women will start noticing that they're either having trouble with sleep or they're excessively sleepy.

The opposite can happen.

Then we talk about

pregnancy, trying to get pregnant.

There are a lot of people who are taking various hormones for fertility issues.

That can impact sleep.

Then once you're pregnant, there can be sleep issues.

Then the baby comes.

And then if you're breastfeeding, there can be issues.

Then we didn't even talk about perimenopause and menopause.

So at various stages throughout the life for women, we do notice there are a lot of sleep issues.

And then you throw on top of that two other big factors.

So one is that we do notice there's more anxiety and depression in some women.

And then finally, there's social and psychological stress or social stresses more so.

So women are often having kids later in life and they're working more than they had before.

So there's work, they're having kids later.

So they're taking care of little kids.

And then there's aging parents and family that they're taking care of.

So it's a nonstop kind of firestorm of hormonal, psychological, and social issues that really do factor in for women.

Yeah.

And I've noticed, I want you to take us away from this, sister, because I promise I'm not just going to complain this whole time.

But I, Dr.

Shelby, now that I have you here,

I've also recently noticed that I've always had sleep issues and we'll get to that, but the little kid time, you don't sleep for 10 years.

But then I've been unpleasantly surprised by the fact that then when they become teenagers, I didn't realize then they just stay up so late or stay out so late.

So then you're still up half the night.

We just got married seven years ago.

So she stays up now with them because I'm like, you missed the early years.

So now this is your time to shine.

And actually, I think it's, it's really interesting because I think Glennon has lack of sleep PTSD from the time that she was, you know, dripping with kids when they were really, really young.

So she becomes

an angry elf

in in the middle of the night times.

If in fact she does wake up, because I think she has so much anxiety around sleep because she missed it so much.

I don't know if that's something that you found.

Totally a thing.

It's not an actual diagnostic term, but we, I would say it's more like a sleep anxiety.

And I see this because I work with women so frequently that there's a almost like, I don't want to go back to where I was.

And I want to go back to that.

And so they almost become super, I mean, not saying you are, but some women start become hyper-focused on their wind-down routines, very rigid about I have to have my arm in a certain way, the pillows have to be a certain way, all these things.

And then if they wake up in the middle of the night, you know, you're breathing too loud.

Why do you do these things?

And then it's this focus on anything that could be a potential threat to their sleep.

So it's almost too rigid for some people.

Yep.

Do you have a fix for that?

Okay, we'll get to that.

Susie, go for it.

We promise not to use this as marriage therapy.

Go ahead, Susie.

Well, all of that is basically like a survival instinct, right?

If you are deprived, then you are like, this is a threat to my health and survival.

I would love to dig into that because I think a lot of us think sleep is about not being tired when you're awake and that sleep is for the purpose of not being tired.

But Evolution doesn't give a shit about us being tired.

Evolution cares about our body's restoration and preservation because all of those things you just discussed about like hormones, okay?

So when we're 11, we get our period.

Suddenly, first surprise, you're fucked up now.

Same with pregnancy, same with babies, same with perimenopause and menopause.

So we're just on this hamster wheel of constantly being screwed up.

And we learn to live with that.

But we really need to take account of it's not just about us being miserable and tired.

Can you say the things that happen during sleep

about

keeping us well and alive

and the bad things that happen to our health when we don't get it because it's bigger than not being tired.

Yeah.

And I think what you were just saying about sleep being a function to help us be not tired and not being sleepy during the day is such an important thing.

And I have patients that are taking all these sleep aids.

Not that that's a necessarily bad thing if you have tried other things, it's not working, but I have patients taking things and they're so sleepy during the day because of these sedating medications.

They're like, well, what's the point?

You're sleeping at night just so you turn your brain off, but if it's not helping to improve the quality of your life, is it really doing that much at this time?

Do you think they're using it just to avoid the scared loneliness?

Potentially.

Some people do.

They just

almost rather put myself out and skip over that scary, lonely part of trying to fall asleep and feel like shit all the time than deal with that.

So you don't have to be with the thoughts or whatever it is, that additional feeling that it brings you back to.

But sleep is that thing that I always say, we talk a lot about the pillars of health in our society, diet, exercise, sleep being one of them.

I argue that sleep is the bedrock for health, more so than being another pillar.

Because what we find is when it comes to all the areas of functioning, really, sleep is the thing that keeps things going.

So when we think about our memory, our mood, our quality of life overall, we think about cardiovascular risk, we think about diabetes, metabolic syndrome, how we heal from exercise, from the daily stresses of life.

For kids, it's super important for cognition, cognition, mental growth, and physical growth.

It really does inform so many things that we're doing in our lives.

And if you're just focusing on, say, diet and exercise to kind of live a healthier life and you're not focusing on sleep or at least trying to improve whatever sleep you have, then you're missing out on a big component of that because it's definitely going to impact all these other things.

And even things like

sleep gets missed a lot when people are in treatment, let's say for depression and anxiety, or even any medical issues.

If you're not sleeping well, we know when when it comes to outcomes for depression and anxiety treatment, especially that sleep helps to bolster those other treatments.

So I argue for some people that if you're feeling depression and anxiety and you're having trouble with your sleep, let's work on your sleep first because it might actually give you better benefits with some of the other treatments that you're doing in your life.

That's interesting.

I just think it's so important because we live in such a hyper productive, in order to value anything,

I have to know how I'm going to net out on it.

And I think just understanding our bodies of like, when you are sleeping in certain types of sleep, your body is actually mending the cells.

Yes.

Like you are repairing yourself.

It's like putting your computer to sleep and it runs the updates.

Like that is time that is productive and necessary for yourself to be asleep.

And also there's like this huge correlation with people who don't get enough sleep do not have the same level of those like super cancer fighting

things in our body as people who do get sleep.

It is doing a thing, y'all.

You need it.

So, it's always a fine line, right?

Because we don't want to fear monger either.

Because

I'm so scared now.

I'm like, oh, my little commands, cancer-fighting things.

Right.

So, it's, you know, I think sleep is an important thing, but we have to also think about: are we taking some of these things that we're finding and we're making it so broad and generalized?

Like, to say, you're going to to get cancer because you're not sleeping or you're definitely going to get alzheimer's which is one of the things yes there are they definitely put us at greater risk but it doesn't necessarily mean that other things you're not doing in life or doing aren't going to you know it all kind of mixes together but there are things like your immunity to certain things we do find that people who are sleep deprived even after one night might have more of a risk of getting a cold or might end up longer term developing certain kinds of cancer.

So for example, people who work shift work aren't getting enough sleep.

Some people who work shifts really struggle with that.

We know that there's higher rates, for example, of breast cancer, and we see those rates, but it's not all cancers.

So you have to be careful with that.

But there are things that not getting enough sleep definitely impacts.

So when you were talking about sleep staging, there's another thing.

So when you go to sleep at night, we cycle through different stages of sleep.

You have deep sleep, light sleep, and then you awaken.

And the different stages are, we call it stage three, which is this deep sleep.

And then there's this middle level, stage two, that happens for a good 65% of the night or so.

And then we cycle with REM sleep throughout the night too.

So a lot of people will say, I've got to get that deep sleep all night long.

But the reality is you should actually have different percentages of the different stages throughout the night.

So REM sleep is really important for emotion processing.

We find that, for example, teenagers talking about teens in that late night, when they have to get up really early to go to school,

you're cutting off a lot of that REM sleep.

So a lot of that emotion processing that teens really need just to get through and to develop, that's being cut off with early school start times for some of these districts.

We should let our kids sleep.

We should let our teenagers

sleep.

Next time your kids are being an asshole, just send them back to bed.

Yes.

To bed.

You need to get more REM.

And then the other thing is like that deep sleep.

That's when you are repairing your muscles from exercise.

That's when kids tend to grow more.

So it's really, it's a smattering of different stages throughout the night as opposed to being focused on you have to get more REM sleep or deep sleep or whatever it might be.

It feels like such a beautiful focus that you're doing this.

It just feels like, thank you.

In the world of women's health and wellness, why is there no, not a lot of focus here, but all of our focus on diet and exercise?

It's because those things are tied to how a woman appears.

Yes.

They're tied to our worth and shit she can buy.

Right.

And sleep is about how we are, actually, how we are, which the world cares a lot less about.

Yeah.

for women.

It's there's the idea of you know, you have to just kind of fake it for years on end.

And then at some point, kids or whatever will be, will be grown, and then you'll have time and you'll make it up later.

But, you know, I also hear people say, well, you'll sleep when you're dead.

And I'll say that.

Oh, my daddy said that might happen sooner if you're going to sleep deprive yourself for years on end.

But then, like I was saying at the beginning, there's this kind of overshooting the mark of you have to be perfect with it seven nights a week.

And I think for some people, that actually makes their sleep anxiety worse, that they're now actually getting less sleep because they're so worried about, you know, the perfection's the enemy of good, essentially.

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Can we talk about that sleep anxiety?

Because this is something I had never heard you talk about how the gold standard, like all the research shows that cognitive behavioral therapy is the gold standard for treating insomnia.

Yes.

Which is fascinating to me because

the way you speak about it makes it seem to me like it's a lot mental.

That insomnia is basically

sleep problems that are caused by anxiety about sleep problems in some ways.

I know that's a crazy oversimplification, but can you talk us through that?

Is all of this

or a portion of all of these problems that we face, are they essentially

an oversimplified anxiety disorder?

Like in in a way, because if cognitive behavioral therapy is going to help you with it, it suggests it's not a purely physiological thing that is arbitrarily assigned to you.

Right.

It's a little multifaceted.

And when we talk about cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia, CBT, I, for the insomnia part, currently, as we're recording this now, there's a big uproar in Europe right now and England because the new standards for menopause care have come out.

And one of the recommendations they have in there is CBT.

And people are saying, well, then you're saying all of menopause issues are all in their head and that therapy is going to fix it all.

And I think there's a big misnomer there.

So when it comes to insomnia treatment with CBT, there's a piece of it that we might, the cognitive part, we might work with some people on that perfection, that anxiety.

Like if I'm only going to bed for seven hours, I have to fall asleep fast because I need to get those seven hours.

Otherwise, XYZ won't happen or will happen tomorrow and I won't be able to function.

That's a piece of it for some people.

But for other people, there are learned behaviors.

I'll sometimes say it becomes an issue of common sense where they're going to bed either too early or they're trying to sleep in.

A lot of parents aren't able to sleep in, but if they can or get the ability to or they take a nap, and then some people start using alcohol or they'll use certain over-the-counter medications or prescription meds or, I don't know, THC, whatever it might be to help them sleep that some of those behaviors or what they're doing in bed in the middle of the night, maybe on their phones, those are all things that are actually worsening it.

So sometimes it can be more of an anxiety issue.

For some people, it's literally just no matter how hard I try, I can't sleep more than four hours a night.

So it's changing some of the bedtimes and wake times and some of the behaviors they're doing where it's really not as much cognitively focused.

Okay, that's helpful.

So it is the dovetailing of the cognitive.

with the behavioral is where the magic happens.

Exactly.

That cognitive piece, I feel like happens in people.

Like, I don't suffer from insomnia.

Thank you, baby Jesus.

But I still have that thing where if I'm not falling asleep, I do that in my head.

I'm like, okay.

Yeah.

So seven hours has now become six.

Oh, God.

Now it's five.

Oh, God, now it's four.

Now I'm up for the rest of the night because I'm counting down and I'm so fixated on what I'm not doing.

Yes.

That it's like gone now.

Mental math.

Mental math at night, the clock is just not good.

I always tell people, get rid of your clock or at least least have it for an alarm, but turn it around because looking at the clock just adds an extra level of kind of someone's watching me and I've got extra pressure.

And it's not going to make the time pass any different.

It's not going to change the outcome of the night.

All it can do is really make you put more pressure on yourself.

And when you put more pressure on yourself, you get more tense.

And that actually is what can worsen sleep for a lot of people.

So it's some of the behavioral stuff.

And then it's also looking at, you know, have you ever noticed that if you have a bad night, it's not always a disaster the next day?

Yeah.

I've noticed that.

And then sometimes when you have a good night, you still feel crummy the next day.

So it's not always a perfect prediction of what's going to happen either.

But we automatically go to the worst possible outcome at two in the morning, which doesn't help.

Yeah.

Were there any other surprising findings to you in that new study that just came out?

About well, it's not, it's just the recommendations are all pretty good.

I mean, they're pretty along the lines of what we have here in North America.

And it was just a draft.

It hasn't even been finalized yet.

But the outcry of so many very well-known menopause physicians saying therapy shouldn't be one of the recommendations.

And I don't understand.

Hormones work for a lot of people, but they don't work for everyone.

So why not give another evidence-based that we have actually good data on evidence-based option to help people sleep better and help with their mood.

But people are just, you know, it's all in your head.

And then there's the stigma of going to therapy, right?

And I don't, for insomnia stuff, I see people typically two to eight sessions.

That's generally what I do.

And it's not even weekly.

So people often think too, when they hear therapy or CBT, they think this is going to be something that's months, if not years on end.

When you think of therapy, it's a very, very short-term thing.

So what do you do that's most helpful?

Like if someone's listening right now and they can't get to CBT therapy for many reasons, what is most helpful for somebody who's suffering from insomnia?

Besides the get rid of your phone, I need something besides get rid of your phone and caffeine and boots.

I don't just, just something else.

So, okay.

So that's actually a really good point, Glennon, that you're bringing up is that that sleep hygiene.

So one of my colleagues, Rachel Mamber,

always talks about sleep hygiene, which I love.

She says it's like dental hygiene.

So you're going to brush and floss every single day and that will help prevent a cavity, but it doesn't.

Are you, Dr.

Shelby?

Are you going to floss every day?

I try.

I try.

I try.

But the idea is that it helps prevent insomnia.

If you do like limiting the caffeine, limiting screens, all that sort of stuff.

But once you get a cavity, A, you're not going to stop brushing, but you can't really brush a cavity away, correct?

Right.

Like, you can't.

Same thing with sleep hygiene.

So you want to limit alcohol, limit the caffeine close to bed.

Like all that stuff is good, they're good sleep habits.

But once it now tips from once in a while a bad night to routinely having bad nights,

no amount of like limiting screens is going to necessarily help fix that problem.

And that's the thing that gets put out there more often than not in the media and in books.

A lot of people are like, well, you have to limit this and do this and that's actually not evidence-based care for insomnia so when you're asking what do we do so sleep hygiene is important but it's not going to solve the problem like if you're drinking a two liter bottle of soda before bed that's got caffeine good luck i mean you got to fix those things but one of the biggest things i usually say to people is limit the time in bed and come up with a more consistent sleep wake time.

It's not perfect, but do it as often as you can five nights a week.

If you're only sleeping, let's just be generous here.

You're sleeping six and a half hours a night, but you're in bed for eight hours.

Maybe limit yourself to about seven hours.

It's more about quality over quantity because we get very fixated on that you have to get seven or eight hours a night or else all these things are going to happen.

I'd rather someone at first start getting six hours where they're falling asleep a little faster and fall back asleep faster than in bed for eight hours with kind of chunks throughout the night.

So limit and then kind of try and be a little bit more consistent with the bed and wake time.

And sometimes it's kind of weird, but sometimes it goes if you're someone who tends to have a very busy brain.

if you spend a little less time in bed, you might fall asleep a little faster because you're going to bed later.

And you might fall back asleep faster because your body is learning that it has less time in bed so that you actually get into a deeper sleep once you fall back asleep.

Whenever I hear the sleep thing and people are just like, just stop drinking caffeine, it makes me feel like.

this it's it's equivalent to you know people giving women financial advice where they're like just stop having your latte it's like no matter what a woman's problem is the answer is to stop drinking coffee.

Like, it's the one thing that we live for that keeps us going.

It's like when I was in elementary school, I would come to the clinic and be like, my stomach hurts.

And they'd be like, here's your ice pack.

It's like, stop drinking coffee is the like, here's your ice pack for women, you know?

But really, when I have historically been laying in bed, it's because I feel like I have the weight of the world in my brain.

Like everyone, it feels like other people could sleep because they're not spinning the mental load of the entire world.

Is there some parts of this like sleep problem

that is about gender inequality?

Oh, a huge piece of it.

A huge piece.

And I think that's also what's getting missed as well in the kind of discussion.

I think there are a lot of men out there who are writing about sleep who don't necessarily have the same perspective.

Not to say that it's not a valid perspective on their end, but it doesn't speak to a lot of people and it doesn't speak to a lot of the patients that I work with.

And I think the spinning brain and the that kind of mental load that a lot of women take on, it's very hard to let go of in the middle of the night.

And there are things that we try to do, meditation being one thing, not in the middle of the night.

I actually have people meditate during the day to help get.

a little bit better at recognizing when because sometimes people get so deep in the hole of doing it in the middle of the night it's hard for them to recognize that they started going in the hole that if you can just kind of start to be a little bit better at saying nope not now that's for tomorrow.

And by doing daytime meditation can make it a little bit easier to softly kind of change the focus.

It's just finding five minutes during the day for some people can be really a challenge.

If I were a psychologist, if I was a marriage therapist, I know everyone's trying to figure out how do we actually transfer the mental load.

Like people have finally figured out that, you know, it's not fair in a couple for one person to be carrying all the mental load.

But everyone's trying to figure out then how do we actually pass half of it over?

I would suggest that every time the person who carries the mental load is trying to fall asleep and they're thinking of all the things that they just constantly wake up the other person and then they go, also this.

And then the other person's like, oh, that's our mental.

And then they keep going, also this, just like all night forever until the mental load is evenly distributed.

That would work, correct?

I think that's part of it.

It feels so overwhelming to carry it and then 2x overwhelming to get it out of your head and to make the invisible visible.

And so I think that's a really good strategy, actually.

I do too.

Glenn, it doesn't just have to be at night.

I think

any time putting in the extra work at the beginning to make that invisible visible, I mean, if you have a whiteboard in your house,

you have a piece of paper on the refrigerator.

And every time that something comes to you, you're writing it down.

You can create a shared reminder and notes app on your phones that you literally have a talent tech of shit you hit shit.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head.

It's the best.

I haven't done it with Glennant yet.

I've just started to do the reminder app myself.

I just scream things from the basement.

And also, don't forget.

But that's a big thing.

I'm a huge fan of just to-do lists or things that have to get done.

And I love the shared app too.

I like, we'll use various different apps for that sort of thing with families and with couples.

because it helps to share that load.

But also a to-do list in general can be something like what has to get done tomorrow, because these are other things that we're thinking about prioritizing, right?

What has to get done tomorrow?

What would we like to get done tomorrow?

What do others want us to do tomorrow?

Like to really think about it and really get a little bit granular with it so that it's not just spinning and, oh, well, but just share it a bit.

I wouldn't recommend waking up the other person, which you need to recommend because then you're both going to suffer with insomnia and then that's.

not going to be good.

Unless they're non-compliant.

Yes.

If they're non-compliant, that's what they get.

All right.

There you go.

You're spinning with me, me, brother.

This is what I'm saying.

That it gives it a home.

It doesn't have to swirl in my head because now it lives on that list that will exist tomorrow.

Yes.

And similarly, like the reason the meditation is happening during the day, you say, is to build that muscle.

Yeah.

Yep.

So that when it comes up at night and you can remind it, it's okay, love.

You're doing such a great job carrying all the things.

Thank you for that.

And also that thing you just said, it exists already in that list.

Thank you for reminding.

Now I'm going to write it down on that list.

And now you can go in the cloud bubble and float away.

I get that.

That makes sense to me because that is a skill that has to be practiced.

Like

I buy because during the day when I'm meditating, I am learning how everything can be ridiculous.

And there can be so many things going on to do.

And I still am able to put that aside for this time.

That is a skill that is required for sleep that you can practice in meditation.

Because more so with women, but not always.

Some people come to me and they just say, I can't turn the volume down on my brain.

It's just out of a, you know, to a 10, it feels like it's an 11.

So it's just, they can't turn it down.

And that's where meditation really is useful.

And a lot of people use meditation.

They'll use like these apps and they'll listen to someone that's talking very quietly and then they'll try to fall asleep to it.

And that's.

fine for some people, but you're not actually meditating.

That's you're not getting the skill.

It's like going to the gym and doing like a a bench press and falling asleep in the middle of it.

You're not getting the work out of it.

So doing that work during the day will make it easier to soften in the middle of the night because the stakes are just, they feel so much higher in the middle of the night.

So do it in a lower pressure environment during the day.

And it can actually really, really help.

But it's the sort of thing where, you know, some people will be like, limit caffeine.

Okay, stop.

You might notice a difference after two days.

Meditation, unfortunately, doesn't work that fast.

So you have to be patient with it to put the work in.

Is it four days?

Yes.

Four days i would

no but seriously how long i usually tell people when it comes to the sleep stuff i usually tell them to really commit to it for a good month at least okay it's okay it's a skill and you know and the thing too is that some people i i have so many patients that just want to learn meditation from the the apps that are out there and they're like 10 minutes long and i'm like why are you doing 10 minutes like and the goal is not to focus the whole time the goal is recognizing when your brain's wandering yes and saying back on track yeah back on track so do a minute, but don't do 10 and then slowly build yourself up to whatever you have time for.

You know, people say, what's the ideal amount of time to meditate for?

It's whatever you have the ability to do because it shouldn't be adding extra stress to your life.

But I would argue if you cannot find five minutes in your day to meditate and to just sit and even be with your breath, then we need to really think about where you're losing that time in other parts during your day.

Meditation is like a sleep workout.

Yeah.

So I'm a huge proponent of sleep.

I have all the gadgets and gizmos of money

and I've tracked my sleep.

I've been doing it for years and I find it to be like super helpful

because I've been tracking so much of my bodily heart rates, et cetera, for 20 years.

And what's interesting for you, every day that you meditate, you have a good night's sleep.

I hate to freaking admit that that is probably right, but I'm sure that's probably.

But it's interesting because like you're kind of opposed.

And I don't think that the sleep tracking devices are for everybody.

Yeah.

And I totally agree and understand that.

But I kind of track your sleep.

I know you do.

I don't want to know the scores, though, because I feel like I'm too impressionable.

So if my score says you're not ready for the world, I'll be like, oh.

I'm out.

Yeah.

But I think what my, I guess my question is,

especially talking about insomnia and some sort of sleep anxiety,

would you recommend sleep devices or AIDS in this way to those kinds of folks?

Because I do think that the world is trying to sell us.

I buy into it.

It really helps me personally and the personality that I am.

But would you recommend that to like patients that come in that you see?

No.

So there is some research

by my colleague, Kayla Glacier-Baron, who coined the term orthosomnia a few years ago.

It's like a legit thing that I see in my practice all the time.

It's like people will, I, when someone's coming to see me, I am old school.

Like I have a paper sleep diary that I've been using for over 20 years now in my practice.

And I just want someone not to look at the clock, just to guesstimate.

That's all I want.

So how do you think you slept?

How many hours do you think you were up for last night?

And some people will not even pay attention to that and just send me their like ring or watch data.

That's it.

And I said, no, no, no, I don't want that because then like you were saying, Glenning, you're very impressionable.

So even if you think you slept okay, if some watch tells you you didn't or you didn't get a certain stage of sleep, which we even know that those trackers are good for amount of sleep, but not so great for staging as we'd like in comparison to a sleep study, it still can make you then put extra stress on you.

But that being said, I think the trackers are wonderful for people who just have a curiosity or

the flip side who just don't make sleep a priority.

They could sleep fine or sleep more, but they're burning the candle at both ends or they're up watching TV all night or they're having a lot of alcohol.

And they just kind of want to see what the actual data says, where they might be able to make changes.

But a lot of times the changes that it's recommending for someone with insomnia aren't things that aren't going to help it typically for a lot of people.

So it just makes the focus on it worse.

So I would actually say, get a paper sleep diary.

I have one on my website.

You can get them consensus sleep diary.

You can get them anywhere online.

I have one in my book.

Just paper and pencil.

right?

I love it.

Try to meditate during the day and then wake up in the morning and say, how do I think I slept last night?

And that can be your data.

It doesn't have to be.

And it feels human.

It feels human.

I would like to keep this thing that I'm wanting to make my life to be more human.

I would like to keep that human.

I would like to avoid finding myself in a sleep cult.

Yeah.

And like, once again, looking at numbers and buying things and like waking up and now I'm in sleep rehab because I'm addicted to sleep, whatever.

Like,

I mean, I'm kind of joking, but not really.

Like when you say wellness can be just another freaking fundamentalist religion.

Yeah, agreed.

And I think, you know, there's something to be said for

the fact that we were able to sleep for many years before any of these trackers existed.

Right.

I'm curious, though, just by listening to you, knowing that women are having harder times sleeping than men for all of these reasons, it feels like there has to be some underlying issue or something that we haven't researched yet.

Is there more research being done now that that will uncover, I don't know, silver bullet sort of fix for what issues we see with women sleeping?

Insomnia is one of those things where it really can vary based on the person.

So with women specifically, talk about right, women and like taking on too much.

I was nine months pregnant when I signed my book deal because I was like, oh, I'll have time to write it on maternity.

It's my second.

I know what I'm doing.

Stupid.

So like

sleep when the baby sleeps.

You're just going to write when the baby writes.

I mean, it's just ridiculous.

We all do these things, right?

I should have known better, but I didn't.

So I think when I was writing the book in 2015,

there was not that much research being done on women in sleep.

There were a few studies out looking at CBT for insomnia as one treatment for women who were going through perimenopause and some modifications for women who had just had babies or during pregnancy, but there really wasn't much.

So they're starting to research it more, look at different ways whether there's been more research coming out with kind of a mindfulness-based approach to insomnia.

So kind of building on the CBT stuff, but using more mindfulness.

There's been more stuff now looking at hormones for women.

It's various stages.

It's just been an area where looking at sex differences hasn't been something that they've done very much, unfortunately.

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We're also looking at a lot of couples sleep too.

There's some really great researchers out there who are looking at when should you sleep together versus when should you actually just say, we've done everything we can.

Should we just sleep apart at this point to kind of value?

This is the sleep divorce situation.

Can you tell us about sleep divorce?

And I'll tell you, to set you up that this is a very personal thing for us, is that we are really struggling with this.

Like, I think that sleep is probably our biggest

challenge.

We just, I just want to tell you what we do.

We have a bed.

We have a bed.

All right.

On my side, so far, so good.

Good.

And like,

every night I have a fan that is like blasting in my face for the noise and the whatever.

I have earplugs that I put in my ear.

I have

eye mask that I put over my, I feel like I'm like a robot that's like shutting herself down, like one sense at a time.

Abby on her side has this white noise that is so loud that it, so we have two white noises going.

We zigzag, which means every night we're like, are you zigzagging or am I?

My head is at the foot of the bed or

we keep our foots, our heads at different sides of the bed.

Zigzag.

Yeah.

Well, wait, why do you do that?

Yeah.

Because then the snoring will be further from my head.

Okay.

It's very emotional.

Like we don't want to be in separate beds because that feels so scary.

That feels like the beginning of something or like it's a slippery slope.

And Abby feels really strongly about not.

Yeah.

But

it's very hard.

Like every night for someone who already has a hard time going to sleep, worrying about snoring, the actual snoring, the worrying about the snoring being probably worse than the actual snoring.

Yes.

I have a lazy tongue, so I'm trying to sort that out.

I'm working out my tongue.

She literally does.

It's like my own therapy and stuff.

Yeah.

I mean, one night she had tape over her mouth.

Like, she's tried every TikTok answer.

She's taped her mouth shut.

So I'm like, good night, honey.

She's like, good night.

Just for folks who think that Glennon is like.

instituting abuse with the tape over the mouth, this is like a thing of mouth breathing versus the nose breathing.

Nose breathing is way preferable to the mouth breathing.

This is not.

Yeah, the tape wasn't my idea.

Glennon hasn't come up with any of this.

I'm doing a bunch of things.

So where do I start?

So the mouth taping thing, I don't use like in sleep medicine, medicine, more standard care, we don't recommend it right off the bat because unless you have been fully evaluated, because a lot of people are doing that and they have sleep apnea or some sort of like sub-threshold or upper airway resistance issue, they're actually not helping the problem and could be making it even worse.

So, we always say you have to get evaluated, potentially do a sleep study, which can be at home a lot of times.

It doesn't have to be in a lab.

So, people often think they have to get wired up right off the bat.

They don't.

So, we always try to do that first.

But, like, if someone's snoring a lot at night, I want to make sure that that person has been evaluated and they're doing everything that they can to try and help with the snoring that's, that's going to help, not hurt.

But then the other side of it is also sometimes like you were saying, Glenn, is that sometimes you might be more sensitive to the idea of it being an actual issue than it actually is an issue.

So sometimes there's more of an underlying insomnia that if we just get you sleeping a little bit deeper and having fewer awakenings in the middle of the night, sometimes working on that person's insomnia can make them sleep through those issues a little bit more.

And then if you've both worked on those issues and you've really done as much as you can, that's when that idea of sleep divorce.

So my colleague Wendy Troxel has done a lot of research over the past 10, 15 years in this area.

And it really, what we do find is that when people are making a, she calls it, and I love this term, a sleep alliance because that sleep divorce.

I hate the term sleep divorce.

It feels better.

So much better.

Oh, it's terrible sleep divorce because it just has that connotation that it's going to ruin your marriage.

When in research, we actually find in just working with patients, it actually brings them closer together because you're valuing one another's health.

And if you allow for fair and separate sleep environments, so it's not like one person's getting relegated to the couch and has a hard night of sleep.

You have separate areas that you sleep in where you're comfortable, but you spend time having intimacy.

You do whatever you want to do to cuddle or whatever, have sex before bed.

That's the time that's really key.

And then when it's actually time to roll over and go to sleep, you go to your separate environments.

And some people, it's not even just the snoring or moving a lot at night or whatever it might be.

Some people have just different sleep schedules that they like.

Some people are a night owl and the other is an early bird.

And it can cause more resentment in the relationship.

So if you make an alliance and a plan together, it can really actually help people in the long run.

But I always encourage people, you know, to try various things first.

And it can also be, I would, I would, if you haven't done it, see about in your house sleeping apart a few days here and there.

And right, do you still sleep as well?

Glennon, do you still wake up and listen for me?

I sleep.

No.

Like when we do,

when we do sleep in different places, we sleep really well.

She sleeps so much better because she's so the most thoughtful person on earth.

So she's constantly worried about me and like she's waking up herself up.

Constantly jamming a pillow under my jaws to close my mouth.

Yeah.

it's, I like the sleep alliance phraseology.

I'm, I'm like such a fear of abandonment person.

And so it feels like such a scary process to even begin with.

But just listening to her talk makes me feel like maybe you're just a sleep alone kind of person.

100%.

I'm a sleep alone kind of person.

Some people are.

Some people are.

And then another, another

way that some people, instead of making this hard and fast rule that we're going to sleep separate or we'll sleep together, it could be just a few days a week.

Like you could have a schedule.

So you know that this might be a little bit of an easier night for me versus another night, but then you feel like you've kind of met in the middle a little bit.

But it really,

come up with a plan together can really make it a lot more freeing and let go of some of the resentment that some couples feel.

This is very interesting.

When she's talking and saying the sleep alliance thing, and I can feel in my body, like you listening to her and shifting your thoughts about it, the relief relief it's bringing me

is so real.

Wow.

When we watch the crown

and Queen Elizabeth goes to her own bed,

and then she just tucks herself in at night, and then the king leaves.

I'm like, so jealous of Queen Elizabeth.

It's that idea, you know, I mean, I love that show, but it's the idea of like sleeping together is the benchmark of a relationship in some weird way.

And it was, we didn't always sleep together either, right?

There were many

new.

It's a new

phenomenon.

It's a new phenomenon.

And people slept together often because of just limited resources or for because of heat, right?

When you're thinking about many hundreds of years ago, and then it was considered to be almost something that people who had a lot of wealth would sleep apart because they had the extra rooms, they had the extra space, and they would do that.

And then sleeping together has now become this thing again of, you know, that's the the benchmark of where you are in relationship but there are plenty of couples that are not happy that are sleeping together and there are plenty of couples that are super happy that are sleeping apart and i think there's also this idea in psychology that's not necessarily always practicing evidence-based medicine where we just say you have to sleep together like i've had debates with old supervisors in graduate training who said you have to have your your couple sleep together and i would say why based on what?

And what, like I was saying earlier, we know from the research that if you make an alliance and you choose to sleep apart on whatever that means, a few nights a week, whatever, it actually can bring people closer together.

I would say this.

I am happy to explore this route.

But one thing that

would feel important to me is to, for me not to be the one that always left.

Totally.

Like that I got to sleep in bed a couple of nights.

That's funny.

I don't even picture it that way.

When I picture it, not that I've ever pictured it, Dr.

Shelby, but if I were to have pictured it, I always picture myself not being in there that's weird i know maybe because i always feel like i'm the one who would need it so i would but i don't just so you know i don't picture it that way yeah we also have a french bulldog which is also very snorry so me and honey get i didn't bring her up to dr shelby because i don't want anyone telling us not to sleep with honey and i know that's the first most obvious option well you know the pet thing is a mixed bag like i grew up with dogs like it's if your pet if you love it your pet and your pet is not not causing any issues for you in the middle of the night and you're not bothered by it, fine.

But bulldogs, bulldogs, sleep apnea, and snoring, bulldogs.

If it's causing an issue for you and you really want to do something about it, then you got to think about it.

She's only going to be alive for like five more years.

So I'm just like, this is like my little baby years.

Have you tried taping her mouth?

I actually have to put my finger in her mouth to like move her tongue around a little bit.

Oh, you both have lazy tongues.

We do.

i don't want to not talk about revenge scrolling because this is something my sister does i don't know do you still do this sissy is this a thing for you revenge bedtime no what is revenge i have changed my habits it's revenge nighttime procrastination where you're stealing your day back out of resentment that you have no part of your day that is just yours and using it to scroll at night for several hours and feel really shitty about yourself after yeah is that what a lot of us are doing is that what a lot of us are doing that right we feel like it's the only time we have to talk about the crown right Like I, you know, they gave us what, three episodes.

So generous.

It was very hard for me to like stop watching those three episodes and go to bed because I got sucked into it.

So revenge bedtime procrastination is, it's a newer term for an age-old problem.

Like I wrote about it in my book.

I called it momsomnia because it was a women's kind of book, but it's an issue that we've had for years.

And the idea is that you're so busy during the day that you just want to steal back some time for yourself before before going to bed.

And it's a hard thing for some people to overcome.

But I do, we do know that if you're really sleep depriving yourself more times than not, then you're spinning the wheels more often during the day.

And you're actually less effective at doing the things you need to do during the day, that then you feel like you need to steal back even more time at night.

So I encourage people, one of the simplest tips that I encourage people to do is if you're watching shows like I did and I hadn't turned it off on my phone yet.

It's like on Netflix or any of the auto stream or the streaming services, they usually have like autoplay.

So if you turn off that function, it makes you make a conscious decision as to whether you're going to then go into the next episode of the crown or you're just going to let it automatically start for you.

Because then once it's already started, you're sucked in.

So some- So who am I to stop this?

Who am I?

I mean, right.

So something simple like that to just give you that little pause to say, okay.

do i am i choosing sleep or am i choosing to actually just watch another show that i really like and the thing is, like once in a while doing these things is fine.

If you've had a really hard day and you're up really late, you're doing a million things like right now with all the activities for my kids.

Like a lot of us are just sucked into all that stuff that once in a while it's nice to get home and to just catch up on something and just kind of decompress.

Just don't make it, make it the exception, not the norm.

But people, it's also think about what are you consuming.

Like some people are just like.

doom scrolling on their phone all night long.

That's not helpful.

So putting like an alarm on your phone, there are even apps for some people who really struggle with it.

There are apps that will shut everything off on your phone.

And that can be really effective for some people.

So you really have to be thoughtful about how you're consuming the media.

I like that.

Just something that shuts it all down after your bedtime.

Like you, you have lost your privileges to make decisions about this.

But I do caution because some of that stuff will use a password and then I'll have like someone give the password that they don't know to like a significant other.

And then it creates this tension where like you have, you know, you're the one who can unlock my phone.

And don't do that.

Don't go down that road.

Yeah.

Do you know my solution to that, which I found very helpful is because I agree with you.

It's not just the amount of minutes or hours you're doing it.

It's the substance of what you're consuming.

It's like, if I'm, and then I've seen three horrendous crises that have happened and people, and now I'm thinking about those people who have been.

And it's so what I have switched it to, but I like my little treat.

Allison and our team would call it a TR.

I really like a little TR at the night that's just for me.

And so I have switched it to now, I do the New York Times game section

at the end of every night.

But I intentionally don't subscribe to the you can have as many games as you want, because then I'd be doing 15 wordles.

So now I just do, there's like, you know, the little mini daily cross crossword, the wordle thing, the connections and

the

whatever the one where you make the words in the box and that takes me like i don't know however many minutes that takes me and i'm like well it's all gone now good night moon that's amazing it feels like a little

you finished your sunday great how long does it take you how long does it take you i know that's only on sundays or is that every day every day oh that's so great i don't know it's like amazing

i did not know that about you good at games really good at games that it takes me just a couple minutes see for me, I would get more frustrated.

So

it's a little trial and error too.

People always ask, like, what's the ideal wind down time?

Where the thing that I should be doing is like, it vigories based on every single person.

So if games and puzzles do it for you and you don't get sucked into it and you can have a nice limit for yourself, all for it.

Yeah.

It's find what works for you.

To me, that sounds like, let me just real quick, give myself five more problems before I go to bed.

Yeah.

And, you know,

so is social media.

That's giving you 27,000 more problems because now you worry about her size.

my kitchen looked like shit and hers looks like and why are those people dying and what can we do about it?

And what is the, you know, it's all problems.

But I think what we're talking about here too, not even just revenge bedtime stuff, but it's really about too, like people villainize the blue light.

It's not great, but it's not as bad of an issue as everyone makes it sound like.

So you want to try and stay away from your phones and your screens within like ideally an hour before bed.

But I mean, the reality is that I want to go on my phone once in a while.

And so you have to be thoughtful about what you're consuming.

I stay away from social media.

I stay away from like when all these things are, I mean, there's always bad stuff going on in the world, but I try to be thoughtful about saying, okay, is this going to change what I'm learning about right now?

Or is it still going to be an issue in the morning that I can learn about?

Yeah.

So try to be thoughtful.

Like, I have all these 20-year-olds that want to watch The Office right now, right before bed, or friends.

Those two shows they just want to watch.

Yeah.

Shit,

Shitz Creek.

No, it's not going to upset you.

It's not going to show a baking show.

I love a baking show.

You guys, what do you guys look at on social media?

My social media is lovely.

She just has pictures of

videos.

I've got like that's the real answer.

That's the real answer, folks, to all of our life problems.

You asked about the silver bullet.

What is the algorithm?

What is the algorithm feeding you?

Yeah.

Exactly.

Like, I'm watching like these inspiring stories.

That's because you're a genius.

It's the rich get richer and the anxious get more anxious because of algorithms.

Like if you are an anxious person, you are looking at things that bring you anxiety and then your entire algorithm is things that make you if you're folks.

Look, seek and you shall find.

I seek good.

I know.

You seek fainting goats and shit.

I love the fainting goats.

Oh my God.

Go yoga.

Those are my faves.

Or puppy yoga.

Get out of here.

Okay.

I need to start looking at that so that I can feed the algorithm.

Yeah, just look at like one, one or two of those videos early on in your session, like three times in a row.

And then it just sets you up for success.

I mean, like we were saying, compounding interest on fainting goats.

Yeah, and comes between like sleep stuff, insomnia, and whatever all their sleep stuff, and like Great British Bake Off kind of videos.

Yeah,

it just goes back and forth.

So, but be thoughtful about like, if your feed is not giving you that stuff, it's probably not.

And the problem with social media is it's meant to be addictive.

So, it's just scrolling endlessly.

So, it's not actually giving you like a stop point because it wants you on there longer.

So, you have to be thoughtful about that too.

Yeah.

Everybody who has a phone right now, just speak into it.

Highland mini cows.

Oh my God, you guys, the cows.

Highland mini cows.

If we had one extra room in this house, we would own a Highland mini cow.

The cutest animal alive.

Mini cows.

To see what we have.

How would help you with your sleep to have a wild animal in your house?

Oh my God.

I want to farm.

I would love to.

get to some super practical things for people in the last period here where obviously, if you have insomnia,

you are aware of it.

There is no getting around this.

But, what are like the three ways that people would

be able

to notice signs in their lives if you're just not getting enough sleep?

Yeah.

Like, how would you notice it in your life?

So, is it enough, not getting enough sleep because of a sleep disorder?

And then, one other thing we didn't even mention is like sleep apnea and women gets underdiagnosed and misdiagnosed so often and things like restless legs during pregnancy and perimenopause.

I have that horribly myself.

Like these things just get missed because there's this idea that you have to be this older man who's overweight and, you know, it's snoring really loud.

And women, it's not usually snoring really loud that's happening.

So there's a lot of these things that can really influence sleep.

So if you're not getting enough sleep, is it because of you burning the candle and not getting enough?

Or is it something else that's getting in the way?

So that's always the first thing that I like people to try and figure out.

If you're doing everything you can, and it's just not working, that's when you want to go see a sleep specialist for sure.

There's other things that could be signs that you're not getting enough sleep and you're just not making time for it or you're not making it a priority.

And that could be one of the biggest things is like, how fast do you fall asleep at night?

And this is something that usually surprises most people, but it should take you at least five minutes or so to fall asleep.

I can't believe people can fall asleep in five minutes.

That's insanity.

That's absolutely jealous.

She's saying at least five minutes.

At least five minutes.

So a lot of people I work with will say, well, my significant other, the minute that my bed partner hits, their head hits the pillow, they're out cold.

That actually is not always a great thing.

It should take a few minutes to fall asleep because that would suggest they're not getting enough sleep or the quality of it's not great.

Are you always sleeping in more than two hours on the days off that you can or on the weekends?

If you're doing that, then that suggests that you probably need more sleep.

So those are two of the bigger signs that I like to have people kind of point to.

Yeah.

Amazing.

My sleep latency, that's the word for the time that it takes you to fall asleep.

Sometimes it's 30 minutes.

You believe, like you're like, you can tell when I go into my sleep breath.

I actually give Glennon like a 45-minute head start.

So she goes to sleep and I sit on my phone for 45 minutes.

She watches cow videos.

Highland cow baby videos.

And then I'll go to sleep.

Sometimes she hasn't even fallen asleep yet, but it sometimes takes me 30 minutes.

So it's like, I think you also have like sleep jealousy.

I do.

Yeah.

I have sleep bitterness, sleep jealousy, sleep anxiety.

What about menopause?

Like the night sweats, what the hell is that?

Like, and also, did you just say restless leg syndrome is part of perimenopause?

Because my legs are not a mental health.

It can happen more.

Yeah.

During that time, I, we see it a lot during pregnancy and we see it a lot more during just hormonal changes in women.

So that is something.

And I've noticed like I'm, as I've gotten deeper into perimenopause, my legs are just on fire some nights and it can make it harder for you to fall asleep.

And it doesn't have to be the name can be a misnomer.

So it doesn't have to be just your legs.

It can be your limbs.

So it can be your arms.

Like some people just feel like trunks, like they're just restless.

And the only way you feel better is by getting up and moving around.

Sometimes it's as simple as just an iron deficiency and getting tested for that can really help.

And then you can take supplements if your doctor is okay with it.

And then sometimes there are other treatments that we'll do, but it's, it gets missed a lot in women.

And women, I think, often just are told, you're just anxious.

No, of course.

That's your problem.

You're just hormonal.

Don't worry about it.

But there are actually legit issues that can be treated.

So what were you asking about paramenopause in general?

Well, when they go to their doctors.

Yeah.

Okay.

So right now they've listened to this hour.

They

feel like there's something that should be done or could be done about their sleep issues.

What do they say to their doctors so that they're not just dismissed as anxious women?

You're the expert on yourself.

You know if there is a change or if it just doesn't feel as if your sleep doesn't feel restorative if you're feeling like you're just not getting enough sleep and you're dragging through the day, you are the person who knows yourself best.

And if your doctor doesn't ask you simple questions like, well, what time are you going to bed?

What time are you waking up?

What happens in the middle of the night?

Do you snore?

If they're not asking you any of those questions and they're just quick to say it's anxiety or just write you a prescription, I would urge you to find a different doctor who's going to take it seriously.

Because we have so many wonderful treatments for sleep disorders, whether it's behavioral, medication, psychiatric, when it comes to anxiety.

There are so many areas, hormone treatments.

there are so many areas that we have that you should not suffer in silence.

And that's what I think a lot of women are doing.

It's starting to change, but you shouldn't have to fight to get a sleep study if you think you're snoring or you're having any pauses in your breathing throughout the night and you're falling asleep.

In terms of blood work or genetic methylation tests, like do you recommend any kind of testing for anybody who's having any sleep disorder issues?

When it comes to like some of the genetic tests, there's not so much that we would do with it that would be any different than if we know that you have a a sleep disorder.

So the kind of gold standard for most people is if you feel like something is off, you would go and see a sleep specialist.

And if it's say if they suspect any sort of apnea or thrashing in the middle of the night, then they're going to do a sleep study.

A sleep study will usually give us most of the information that we need based on, it can be other things.

There can be like REM behavior disorder, people acting out their dreams in the middle of the night and not even knowing it.

So a sleep study.

is usually the thing that will tell us.

And like I was saying, there are, depending upon the issue that you're presenting with, sometimes it can can be a simple home sleep study.

I mean, people are really scared to go to a sleep center, but some of the sleep centers, like here in New York, there's a few sleep centers that use something called a watch pad, which is wonderful.

It's literally a watch with a pulse ox on it.

And that's the general sleep study.

It's looking more at your breathing.

But if we think that there's more going on, then you might have to sleep in a lab that has like an EEG on it and other stuff.

So we can look at it on a more holistic scale.

I have a question, and it is:

you've mentioned how like this eight-hour thing gets drilled into us so much that it gives us anxiety.

Is it true that each person has their sleep need that is specific to them?

That is it true that some people, their optimal amount of sleep for their function is five hours and other people, it's 11 hours.

And if that's true, how do we find out?

What that number is.

What the number?

What I need.

Yeah.

So yes, I can't remember what colleague of mine says this, but they say it's like sleep need is like shoe size.

So everyone has a different shoe size, but we all tend to vary or kind of congregate around similar kind of areas.

That's where that seven to nine comes from.

That's why people say eight.

It's because it's literally in between seven to nine.

Most people

between seven to nine.

But that being said, there's some people that do a little bit better with less.

There are some people who do better and need more.

Like I actually am closer to eight and a half, sometimes even nine hours.

And my husband needs less than I do to really feel he can't even sleep more if he tries.

Now, to figure out what that number is, there's two different ways that I recommend people to do it.

One is a little bit easier than the other.

But one way that's really great is if you have a week off and you don't have to get up for any reason, you don't have, like you can go on a vacation or do whatever in your house, go to bed at your usual time.

And this is where a paper sleep tracker is great.

So you go to bed at your usual time and then you go to sleep and you just record the time that you naturally wake up without an alarm clock in the morning and do that for ideally a week.

And then look at days four, five, six, seven and see what you were naturally getting on those days.

The first few days we usually use as a throwaway because you're probably a little sleep deprived that you're catching up.

So average it out four, five, six, seven.

Those days, that's probably if you felt well, rested and refreshed most of the day, you have a dip here and there, that's probably your sleep need.

The other way to do it is to kind of come up with your routine that you're already doing.

And then every

few days, increase either your wake time or your bedtime by about five, 10 minutes.

And And then when you start to notice things fall apart, that's probably where you got a little too greedy.

You kind of go back to whatever the number was, and that's probably your sleep need.

Cool.

So I was listening to my friend Adrienne Marie Brown talking on her podcast recently.

And she was talking about her sister.

And she said that whenever she thinks about her sister or any of the women in her life that she loves so much, her blessing or wish from them is always just let her rest, just

more sleep, just let her sleep, let her sleep.

And I actually turned it off and just like sat with that for a minute because that is so true.

Like, that's what we want for each other.

It means so much.

It's literal.

It's a metaphor.

It's everything.

So much.

But that is my wish for everyone listening to the podcast right now.

All of you, I just wish you more sleep and more rest.

And I thank you, Dr.

Shelby, for being part of the sleep revolution for people and women.

Thank you for this hour.

You can do hard things.

And we'll see you back here next time.

Bye.

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We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wombach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

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I give you Tish Milton and Brandy Carlisle.

I chased desire,

I made sure

I got what's mine,

And I continue

to believe

That I'm the one for me

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on map

A final destination

you're lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

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We'll finally find our way back home.

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I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem,

sometimes

things fall apart.

and I continue to believe

the best

people are free

and it took some time,

but I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are map.

A final destination

they lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to belong.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

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bring,

we can do a hard day.

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We might get lost, but we're okay with that.

We've stopped asking directions

in some places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do hard things.

Yeah, we can do hard things,

yeah, we

can do hard

things.