Tegan and Sara Ask: Did We Do Enough?

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Okay, loves.

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Just

I'm so delighted to tell you who we have with us today

get ready queries

finally

we have tegan and sarah with us today throughout their 20-year career tegan and sarah have built a multifaceted media empire that extends into tv books newsletters and public service always of course rooted in their incredible

soul-crushing and then reviving music.

With multiple Juno Award wins and numerous Grammy Glad and Polaris Prize Award nominations, Tegan and Sarah's crowning achievement is the Teigen and Sarah Foundation.

Teigen and Sarah are the authors of the New York Times best-selling memoir, High School, and their second book, Teigen and Sarah Crushed, will be released on October 1st, 2024.

That's really good news.

Tegan and Sarah, I just want to tell you a couple things.

Number one, I'm so glad to see your grown faces because because right now I'm three-quarters of the way through high school.

Your book.

It's just so much acid.

And I'm just,

the mom in me is so proud of you.

Okay, I'm older than you.

Much older.

Just a couple years.

I mean, by five years.

Oh, really?

They're age older.

They're my age.

You guys are 43, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

So I just, well, I do feel like maternal

it's always interesting for me to

think about people who are younger than me but whose life and how they've lived it made it easier for me to come out to be who i am in the world we have two queer kids their experiences coming out have been so different

And you and who you are and who you've always been and your fierce determination to be who you are and share it with others so they can be who they are has changed the world totally at large.

And that has affected my family.

So my life personally.

Yes.

So thank you.

Thank you, love folks.

That's really incredibly sweet.

And I really love how swinkly you went from our reckless acid use to just being complete gay heroes.

Like I really, I love to see it.

I think they're connected.

Okay.

I'm as impressed by that as your activism.

When I smoke pot, I have to tell people, not in previous times.

All right.

Everybody was.

When you smoked pot.

Right, right.

I used to have to tell people, please tell me if I've peed in my pants because I can't.

And you guys were at school.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

I know we really showed a lot of promise.

Yeah.

When we do things, we do it as best as we can.

We do it to the max for sure.

And we excelled at hiding.

our drug use.

I will say this when we put out our memoir, Sarah was the one who really championed us being really open about our experimentation.

Cause I do think there's this sort of, you know, masquerade that happens when you're a public figure where you only project the perfect positive parts of yourself.

And Sarah and I were really all about, this is sort of part of the Tegan and Sarah ethos is that we are degenerate dirtbags.

And our incredible career is a testament to the unbelievable village of people around us who constantly support us and hold us up.

But I think that part of what people connect to is that we're just kind of ourselves.

And we didn't want to gloss over our high school years where we really struggled with not just our sexuality, but where we fit in the world, what our path was going to be.

And it was Sarah who said, you know, we reward male rock stars for their shenanigans, their sexual escapades, their drug use, their drinking, all of that.

And women are just.

not allowed to do that.

And so we really leaned into that and embraced it.

And also we'll point out that it did really unlock a creative part of us.

So

major, major props to ACID, LSD.

Thanks so much for that.

We do not use drugs, have not used drugs since the 90s, but yeah.

And also thank you so much for having us on the podcast and thank you for that lovely introduction.

Absolutely.

I want to ask you too, I feel like in listening to your music, reading all of your interviews forever and reading your book,

I feel like you too have

because you've worked together for so long as sisters, you have gotten to a place that we are trying to get to, my sister and I.

This is my sister.

This is Amanda.

Hi.

And this is Abby.

It's so nice to meet you.

So nice to meet you all.

So good to meet you finally.

You've been playing in my ears for 20 years, it seems.

It's lovely to be here with all three of you.

Okay, so what I'm thinking about is how siblinghood

kind of shows us who we are, but then also demands us to be that thing forever.

Helps us individuate and then gets us stuck so much.

And then, so you two said this one thing in an interview.

This is not going to seem like the most profound thing you've ever said, but I had to stop reading and take a deep breath.

Okay.

Some interviewer was talking to you about one of your albums.

Teigen started talking about your experience with the album, and it was a strong opinion in one way.

Then Sarah says this.

Tegan feels differently about that than I do.

And then you gave your experience and opinion, and that was it.

it.

Now,

I was like, what?

That is not how we would do it.

We would just for a year try to decide who was right about it, who was wrong, and what we were going to believe.

Well, we do that too.

You do.

We're heavily media trained at this point.

I mean, we've been talking publicly for 25 years.

And when I say media trained, it's self-taught.

Like we just learned

not to say and do embarrassing.

Trial and error.

So I'm married to a twin.

She and I talk a lot about this idea that there's always one twin that's a little more independent, more heavily identified as like, I'm the individual twin.

I wasn't as drawn to twinness as like the other one or dependent or whatever word you want to use.

And I think that this idea with all siblings, but specifically with twins around like, we must have the same memory or we have to have the same emotion or feeling it's sort of baked into the twin idea and so if it's not coming from you internally it's definitely externally like the pressure is put on you like i can't believe you both don't feel this way or i can't believe you both don't think green is your favorite color there's this kind of like aggressive emphasis on oh you must be identical because you are identical i think to some degree just having that phrase you just used in our vocabulary, it's helped sort of take some pressure off of us because sometimes sometimes what I really want to say is Tegan's wrong or that's completely incorrect or I'm worried about your mental health and I think you need to get it checked because that's just you've fabricated that.

But it's just easier to say, I feel differently.

You know, my experience is different.

So, I mean, that's a huge thing between siblings.

And it's funny because I'm a new parent and I think we're only going to have one kid.

And so we're twins with one child.

And we walk around in like the state of projecting grief on him.

We're like, it's so sad.

It's so sad.

He's going to be alone.

And then on the other hand, sometimes I'm like, it's so sad that he's just a normal single, you know, because we think of ourselves as being somewhat special.

And now we're like, we have a less special child, you know?

Wait, who is the twin in your relationship that is the more

independent versus not?

Oh, I'll let Tegan answer that.

Well, I would say that I am totally fine with being a twin

have also at points felt that Sarah did not necessarily want to be a twin or like being a twin.

You know, she definitely individuated herself earlier than me.

She took off and we were graduated high school in the late 90s and then Sarah moved to Montreal in 2003 or 2002.

And that was the first time period that we like existed as independent people.

It's weird to say that because so much of our life was still so stitched together, you know, being in a band and spending 300 days a year together.

It's like an odd feeling.

Like, I don't know if you guys experience this working together, but it's odd.

People will come up and be like, I love your cats.

And I'll say, they're Sarah's cats, you know, because Sarah has these Scottish fold cats and she'll put them on our Instagram.

And I'm like, they're Sarah's cats.

And almost always people look confused, like, they're not both your cats.

And I'm like, do people really think we still like live together with our mom or something?

What is happening?

The common sense just poof, it flies out the window, you know, like when Sarah had a kid, everyone, I mean, we do take photos of us together with him.

And it is odd.

I was at my mom's the other day, and there's a photo in her front entryway of me and Sarah and Sid.

And I'm like, it is kind of weird.

It's like we're co-parenting together.

But so, anyway, I just, I feel like there's just an automatic assumption that we must be each other's best friend.

We must love the same things.

We must do all the same things.

We must still live in bunk beds in our mom's house.

So, I feel Sarah pushed against that further and harder and first, you know, which was really hard for me because I felt somewhat abandoned, you know, but now I really embrace it.

I think it's amazing.

It felt like there was a a bit of a rock bottom when you all

speaking of things that male rock stars get lauded for,

when you all started to get in like physical fights backstage, sister and I used to fight, fight.

Yeah.

Like draw blood.

Wow.

Amanda and I.

Yeah.

When we were little.

How old did you go?

to like doing that where was the line where it was like oh this is no longer appropriate and it's going to end in like police calls or something at least october

abby was like sit down ladies and not have a conversation do you still get into it no no no no we don't we don't i've been trying to figure this out i think i was in

early middle school yeah so that was you were too old middle school yeah that was yeah to be fighting with until you left probably for college do you think yeah one of the things that i find so interesting about your all's memoir is i cannot believe how much you you remember.

Oh.

For me, high school is just flash.

And by the, I was like deep in addiction, but just flashes.

But some of those flashes, I remember sitting in front of doors, just holding for my dear life, like you see in horror movies.

And my sister clawing like the shining to get to me and wondering, what is she going to do when she gets to me?

There is nothing more intense than teenage girls.

And I didn't feel, this is going to be a bit of a quick journey, but I never felt totally like a girl.

I didn't struggle with this idea that I was, you know, born in the wrong body or anything so definitive or like acute, but I did not feel like a girl.

And I remember that really intensifying in adolescence because teenage girls were nuts.

And I was like, get me out of here.

These are not my people.

What are they doing?

And also, this is sort of a more provocative kind of take on it, but I really wanted to be around girls when I was in adolescence because I was attracted to all the girls and they were so not attracted to each other, meaning like not sexually, but they were always mad at each other.

And I was like, can't we just all get along?

And hang out all the time and maybe make out.

Maybe make out or just

fighting so much, we could make out more.

Seriously, like I was like, it's such an interesting feeling to be a queer girl at that age, specifically identifying the way that I did internally and externally, where I just was like, it's so weird to want to be around girls who just do not, they're just like allergic to each other i didn't involve myself very much in the sort of fights that teenage girls were having at that time but it just was really really destabilizing and we talk about this in the memoir there was a in grade nine a group of french immersion girls came to our school and they were like a different species they were kind and generous and curious and

they liked us, which was like delightful.

And it's like a miracle, you know, that we found them because I was able to sort of engage, not just in queerness with many of them, but like, I

felt like, oh, this is the environment, this is the culture of girlhood that I wanted and was missing.

And in some weird way, that really drew attention to how Tegan and I had sort of adapted.

We were also fighting and knocking each other's doors down and really physical with each other.

And that group of French immersion girls was like, What's wrong with you guys?

And that was like really where the shame started for me, where I was like, Oh my God, what's wrong with us?

So I know boys have their own thing too, but man, I mean, teenage girls, that is, it's heavy.

It's heavy.

I wonder about that because the story we've always told each other about that time was that the intensity of our connection was always there.

And the outlet of the intensity came out in that kind of,

in some ways, violent ways.

But the intensity.

of it now comes out in different ways.

But I wonder if it's about girls.

This is interesting because you have a son now too, but I have a son and sometimes I hear them playing in the yard and I'm like, tell my husband he needs to go out there and like deal with whatever's happening because they'll just be screaming at each other while they're playing a game.

And he's like, looks at me like, I don't know what you're talking about.

There's no problem happening.

Oh,

they are playing a game.

Right.

The sounds you're hearing is a game being played.

Girls.

aren't given that latitude

to have their aggression in the normal state of things.

So I feel like it just gets piled up and then springs out.

I actually find that so interesting because in our career, and I mean, it's lovely that you guys stopped kicking the crap out of each other in middle school.

We were still doing it in our early 20s, but we were alone a lot because we were on tour.

We just privately abused each other.

So it was bad.

Yeah.

But I was going to say that it's actually, it's so interesting to hear you say that about the difference between kids, girls, and boys, because I feel like in our career, that's really been a theme.

I feel that there's almost like an unjust judgment on us.

Like if we have any sort of tension or disagreement, and Sarah and I, we like every couple of years, we top up and go to therapy together and work on communication and work on our relationship with each other because we spend so much time together and our whole life is intertwined.

And it is absurd.

Our latest sort of therapist slash work coach, after a few months of working with us, was like.

It is absurd.

It isn't easy for you to unravel your lives, you know, in addition to being twins and queer.

There's just so much about your life.

You go to each other first, and that's different.

Like when you're family building, it just is really complicated.

I think there's been sort of this judgment on Sarah and I.

Like, if any tension comes up, any friction comes up, the way that our band and crew and management and even our audience reacts to that, it has created enormous shame in us.

And, you know, we had a really amazing therapist who worked with us during the making of our fourth album, which was in 2004.

And his whole strategy with us was to get us to undo that and to stop feeling shamed and to start asking permission to just say to people,

we are going to have an argument.

We make thousands of decisions together a month and we have left our family, our friends, our comforts behind and we're on the road in a foreign country with the weight of this responsibility of the band and all of your lives and our livelihoods on our shoulders.

We are going to have tension.

Yes.

And it's healthy and it's normal and it's fine.

And I think at that point, Sarah and I started to to realize like, okay, we can have that tension, we can have those disagreements and arguments, but there needs to be boundaries and rules.

And now it's evolved to the point where we have a code of conduct, which you know.

We don't follow it.

You follow it.

You don't follow it.

But it exists.

It's there for us to rely on from time to time.

But it's like, I think we've gotten to a place where it's like, yes, tension, friction.

aggression, these arguments, it is normal.

I mean, the first thing people say to us when they meet us are things like, I cannot imagine being in a band with my sibling.

I cannot imagine traveling with my sibling.

I don't think the concept of there being tension with family is that foreign, but I think that there's this automatic assumption we're going to be able to put all that aside and just get along.

And it's like, no, I want to fucking murder her a lot of the time.

You know, we have an album called Love You to Death, and I think nothing sums us up better.

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It's so interesting about the,

yeah, it's okay.

It's just okay.

And then we just keep going and we just keep coming back, which is what men do.

Yes.

I was an elementary school teacher and I would see this happen.

Like the boys were allowed to, wherever they were, whenever they were, hash it out.

Hash it out without anybody freaking out.

But when girls started to do it, there was just this panic in everybody, like, get along, be nice.

And so it has to come out sideways.

I think that's why women's sports are so interesting because it's like a container where women can be fully human.

But it makes sense that we would only do it in private places with small groups of friends, with each other in the house, with whatever, because we're not allowed to do it in the world.

So we have to get it out in these small private places.

Right.

Yeah.

Well, I think it's interesting that you bring up the sports analogy because I do feel there is something about men in all those worlds.

Like, yeah, it's like we can go out on the field and we can get into conflict with each other and have these issues, but then we can go back to the locker room and we can get along.

And it's wonderful that women have that space to do it too.

I think men have that space to do it in rock and roll, too, in the music industry.

I mean, I watched men.

over the last two decades in our organization argue with each other, get into conflict, and then move on and have a beer later.

But I can tell you every single time I've had a conflict with men in our organization, it has never gotten better.

And it always feels like it's my fault.

It's like, well, you raised your voice or you were emotional.

And I've had what seemed like very reasonable, normal conflict with people about not doing their job, pointing it out in a really, really, really, really professional way.

And then later on had that man come to me and been like, you really hurt my feelings and I need a hug, you know, and it's like, no,

no.

Would you go to our guitar player and get a hug after he gave you feedback, like about you're in your mix?

No.

But it's just, we have this really unbelievable expectation on women to be nice, to resolve things, to make things good, to make everything smooth for everybody.

Okay, just because we've been sort of bouncing between the two, but thinking again about kids, because I have like a big child.

He's going to be a bodyguard size child and he

is so gentle.

He's very tentative.

He's really verbal.

He's really smart.

And the other day we were at the library and this little girl just walked right up to him and just dumped two hands on the chest, just pushed him, like just walked over to him and just pushed him.

And I wanted to pick up that child.

Of course you did.

Of course.

Remove them from the library.

And I was just like, not just from the library, the planet, maybe.

Yeah.

I just was like, holy shit.

Like my instinct to protect him was so intense.

And then it filled me with dread because I was like, he's so sweet right now.

And I don't want him to become the thing, you know, whatever.

But anyways, all of which to say, then I read this, that in Canada, they just put out this big report, like Canadian pediatricians, and they were talking about like, I'm paraphrasing, they were essentially saying in the nicest way, like your kids are wimps.

Stop protecting them.

Let them beat on each other in the parks.

They need to climb and fall out of trees.

They really sort of like draw a link between this increased anxiety in kids and the fact that they never get to hurt themselves or like be alone or like ref house with each other.

And they don't distinguish obviously between sex because it's like back in the olden days they would have but now they're kind of like whatever your kid identifies as whatever they're doing out in the world let them do it they need to push boundaries they need to be out of your sights they literally recommend letting your kids climb trees and do things that are marginally dangerous because they're not getting any chance to like discharge any of this natural that comes up in you when you're a kid and you're figuring out how to do all this stuff it's interesting like how i'm already feeling that with having a son where i'm like i don't want him to be aggressive but now I'm like, is he already too wimpy?

So like now I'm like, again, you got to wrestle with him and throw him around a little bit more.

I don't know how to do this.

I have so much more empathy now for people.

It's really hard not to raise up somebody who's like just bonkers.

It's really hard.

It's so hard.

You're already doing so many things wrong.

And he's only like not even two.

Because you've spent your life trying to figure out how to be a full human, badass, free woman.

And then the universe is like, good job.

Here's a boy.

The fuck are we supposed to do that?

Even if it was a girl.

We don't know.

I know that we'd feel more stressed even if it was a girl.

Yeah.

My whole thing, too, is that I think there's lower expectations for boys.

And I really see that now.

Totally.

And, you know, I have a lot of friends with girls, and I'm like, man, that it actually looks harder to me to raise the girl because it's like, you want to protect them and you want to make sure that they're strong.

It's stressful out here.

We feel you.

It's hard.

Yeah, we're at the stage where we're, as parents, we're trying to figure out: A, did we do a good enough job?

Because they're leaving.

And like the process by which to to detach.

That is, for me, it's the hardest thing.

I'm struggling big time with it.

My instincts are like opposite game.

I have to like override myself.

I'm not detaching.

Is that your goal?

I'm not, that's not my goal.

Well, no, it's the only word I could think of of just like they're individuating.

Okay, well, just take it easy.

I feel you, though, because don't worry, they'll write a memoir.

Listen, they'll write a memoir as my mom.

If karma exists, if karma exists, they will be writing memoirs.

Yeah.

I know, because like that's the other thing, too, is that we are all roughly around the same age.

And I just feel like our parents were really young.

My parents were 39, turning 40 the year that we graduated high school.

So, you know, I'm 43 and I've got a 20-month-old.

And I'm like, I never want him to leave.

I can literally bring myself to tears thinking about our life when he leaves.

And it's like, it's over.

I used to laugh at my friends when they were like, I'm going to move wherever my kid goes to college.

And I'm like, I say this to Stacey and my wife all the time i'm like we're gonna have to go live near him wherever he goes especially if he thinks he's getting an inheritance it's gonna be all negotiable unless he lets us be in his life

that sounds healthy i don't know that sounds healthy i know it's super unhealthy but i'm like oh i had you to fill the rest of my life i didn't have you so i could send you out into the world and let you go yeah that's why i had you when i was an old lady yeah you're not going anywhere and that is what the parenting experts tell us that we should tell them we had you to fulfill us

right and so i'm going to need you to make all of your decisions based on what's best for me

who's he going to meet better than us actually in your case

in your case i think that's fair i think that's fair

tean is shaking her head like god help us

nothing seems harder to me than being a parent it's been awesome to watch sarah go through it and so many people that we love so much have gone through it you know and we we're lucky to have amazing parents and there's so much focus and time and attention put on kids and i really get it you're You're responsible for raising a human being who's going to go out into the world.

And yeah, it's really huge.

But there's also part of me that's like, you know, it's easy to say it as a person who's not a parent, but it's like your kids are just going to be who they're going to be.

You know, you can try as hard as you want.

You can be as good as you want, but kids are just going to be kids.

My parents, I think, did a phenomenal job considering all of the things that they had against them, you know, and how young they were.

And our lives started sort of in poverty.

And, you know, they did the best they could with trying to work full-time and take care of us, but we still took a lot of drugs, we still ended up being musicians, even though my mom had gone back to school and encouraged us to go right into university.

We decided not to go into university.

You know, you still make mistakes, you still lie, you still cheat and steal and do shitty stuff, you know, like you're a human being.

And like, I agree, sort of, with this concept of like, you kind of just got to let kids fall and figure it out.

And I'm really grateful that we had those kinds of parents.

I love your parents.

I think they did a great job.

Do you know that their first guitar they found, and it was their stepdad, Bruce's?

She gave our kid her first guitar.

Oh, and she's like,

how do you feel about your doing things?

Not only do you have a teenager entering the world, you have a teenager who's entering the music business.

Like, how, how are you feeling about that?

Yeah, I kind of feel like, I mean, what could go wrong?

This one is great.

This one,

I'm

very stressing.

I feel exactly the way Sarah felt when that little girl pushed Sarah right.

Oh, my God.

Oh my god.

Like my biggest thing is she's taking a gap year, but probably will be a gap life.

And the problem I have, and this is all me projecting, is that she's such an incredible student and gets amazing grades and actually like cares about learning.

Whereas I didn't, I was a good candidate to probably skip college and just go straight into whatever it was.

You did skip college.

I mean, you went, but you skipped

three and a half years, but I really didn't go.

But like, Tish to me feels like she's a perfect candidate and would love the college experience etc

and she also has this like crazy fucking gift that and I don't know anything about the music industry and I also have like my old school ways of like when you get an offer you fucking take it and you run with it and she's of a different mind thank god she's of a different mind because it's a different time And she's gen, whatever she is, right?

Gen Z.

Yeah.

So she's like, wants to think about her boundaries and her limits.

And we're like, what?

I know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I really appreciate that you see her as such a great candidate for academics.

Are you fearful that she's going to miss out on the college experience?

Are you fearful about her entering the music business?

Are you just fearful at her being critiqued by the public, which can be so horrible?

Like, is there, or is it all those things?

Thanks, Tegan.

Yeah, no, my all those things.

I just was building my fear.

What are her scary fear inspiration board?

Yeah.

Are you afraid of her failing?

No.

I'm afraid that I'm making a bad parenting choice by

allowing her to do this.

She thinks that we had a choice.

Yeah.

Like this child, we've never had a choice.

Tish reminds me of them.

Yeah.

She just is non-dramatically going about what she's going to do all the time.

Yeah.

So either we get on board or we don't, but she's

like this fierce.

I was like, I have to be a soccer player.

And it was like everything in my life revolved around that.

And Tish, she's not like that.

Yes, her music is the most important thing in her life.

And she has like a really really healthy relationship with all the other parts of her life.

It's very weird.

And it just, to me, it feels confusing because I didn't do it that way.

And so it's all about me.

We just were texting yesterday that like, I'm projecting onto Tish and I need to like get regulated before I even talk to Glennon about it because I can fire her up.

And then it just starts this whole like negative cycle, which we don't need.

It's just fear.

It's not

still fighting until like we got on this interview.

We weren't.

We were kind of fighting.

We were passive aggressively fighting i was fighting with you in my mud yeah well it's good that we got a chance to pick it up though it feels pretty on point for the conversation you know

look i want to just say i mean not that you're soliciting any sort of advice we are we are but i'll give it to you anyway because that's how i work i I'll say I think it's just like so inspiring when someone knows what they want to be.

It's such, what a gift.

Like, you know what I mean?

Like to be good at something and to love it and want to do it, especially at that age.

Like what a gift for you.

I know for Sarah and I, that's so much of what we talk about in our memoirs, that we were so aimless and lost.

And part of that was the fog of queerness and just not yet being able to articulate that and like see ourselves, because at that point, I mean, obviously we weren't equal citizens under the law.

We didn't see ourselves, you know, in the mainstream.

So it was really hard to imagine college.

It was hard to imagine a career.

Like we just, you know, had such a difficult time and music just became this incredible vehicle to put all of those feelings in to kind of push us forward.

And I don't know that we even were thinking about having a career in music or thinking about fame or fortune or what our lives would look like.

It's just there was this one thing that made us feel good.

And we just had to, well, we also liked girls, but, you know, that was too big, like hidden, you know.

So two things we liked, but one that we could do openly.

We also just asked for a year off and it turned into, this is our 26th year.

Brace yourself, Abby.

Yeah.

And the first couple of years were really hard, you know, making it in music, especially as queer people.

I mean, it's still incredibly difficult, you know, especially as you get into your 30s and 40s where nobody wants you anymore because they want 18 year olds.

And it's not an easy industry and it's changed so much.

And you guys all know this from being public people.

It's really tough.

But,

you know, that feeling of loving something, you know, that is often the most important thing is just if you can find something you love.

So many people go through life never having a thing that they love and that they want to do.

And I just think

leaning into that, you can't make a mistake because she can always go to college.

She can always, always, always, always go to college.

That's right.

And that's the other thing.

One of the things that our dad really focused on when we were trying to figure out what we were going to do and how to not convince my mom, but my mom was so upset that we had decided not to go to college or university.

That really had been her goal.

And she had done it the unfun way.

Like she did it as a adult single parent with kids, you know, student loans, arguably the hardest, least attractive way to go to school.

And Tegan and I, while we saw her as a total hero, it wasn't like the American dream college experience.

Like, I wasn't like, boy, I want to be like my mom.

I was like, that looks so hard.

That looks so complicated.

And to find our music career and be able to sort of like build the road as we went was really exciting to us.

And I remember my dad saying, like, he's really dark, but he was like, look, you have a job and then you have to do it till you're like 65 and then you die.

That was essentially his big speech to us.

He was like, so like, if you're going to have to do this job forever, definitely find something you want to do.

And I remember thinking like, yeah, I don't want to just go like aimlessly to college and hope I figure it out.

i really felt like i had something but then in the back of my mind i was always like if this doesn't work out with music abby what you were just saying i also felt like i was a good candidate for school i felt like i was a good candidate for these things and you never stop being a good candidate for those things like if she's curious and interested in education and learning and continuing to learn, she'll always be that.

So that's the thing that is actually often missing in people.

They're going to school because they have to or they're supposed to.

But if you're like such a good candidate and you're like a sponge and you want to learn, that thing will always be there.

Music, Tegan's right.

I hate to like, I don't know, feed this stereotype, but like music is for the young.

The music industry is for the young.

Sorry, I was so shocked there for a second because I don't think I've ever heard Sarah say

Tegan's right.

So I'm just, I'm just going to write down

time.

Yeah, yeah, I'm just going to write down the time so that I can play that before bed.

I've said you were right before.

I've said you were right like four times.

Specifically, you were specifically right when we got offered to open for the killers in 2004.

And they had just put out their album, Hot Fuss.

I was the artist that was happy to continue to struggle and be obscure and have nobody know us.

And Tegan was like, we have to be the biggest band in the world.

And so we sort of like always had this push and pull.

I was living in Montreal and I was very, very into like a very niche sort of like music scene and queer music.

And the only thing I'd ever heard was that killer song about, I don't know, whatever that big single was that seemed vaguely queer baiting.

And I remember being like, I don't like them.

And Tegan was like, we have to go open for this band.

They're about to be the biggest band in the world and i disagreed and we went out and we toured with them we were in theaters and they were already selling their next tour which was going to be sold out arenas and like every night at every show it was like the who's who of the music industry bono showed up to a show david bowie showed up to a show like it was crazy they were like the about to be literally the biggest band in the world and tegan and i were opening for them

well i was like whoa tegan was

good i was like this is a really good show for us because a lot of times when you support bands that are already really established, people are like, we just want to see the band that we're here to see.

But there was this like really fresh, excited energy of just young people coming out to see a concert and not necessarily fully being into the band yet.

I also want to add, I didn't know that they were going to be a huge band.

I just, for me, I was so self-conscious when we chose not to go to college that I was like, we have to take our career so seriously.

So for me, I was like, we must pour all of ourselves in.

Like, nothing else matters.

When Sarah kind of was happy to sort of meander and at times languish in more of the indie underground because that sort of was more of her pedigree was to be intellectual about music.

I was purely like, we must succeed so everyone in our life doesn't think we're losers.

Yeah.

Like thirsty, sweaty.

Tegan was so sweaty in the beginning of our career.

She was like, we got to be famous.

I didn't care about fame.

You know, we'd been given a shot.

Yeah.

And I still feel that way.

I'm 43 and I'm still like, I hope people.

aren't disappointed that we didn't become a bigger band.

You know, we've never been nominated for a Grammy.

Like we've never played SNL.

It's weird.

I'm not disappointed for myself.

I just am so worried that other people are like, they didn't do it.

They didn't succeed.

Like we set them up to succeed and they didn't make it.

And it's like, that's so silly because we've been, we've done lots of cool things, so many more things than I thought we would ever do.

But I worry that we've let people down, you know?

Who do you see, Tegan?

What faces do you see when you like the people will be disappointed?

Are they family people?

Are they fans people?

Or is it just like the gray cloud of people?

It's a good question.

I suppose I haven't put a face to them.

It's probably a mix.

I think sometimes I'm very self-conscious when people will talk about our legacy because I'm like, we don't deserve that.

In Canada, our Grammys are called the Junos and we're getting a humanitarian award for our work in the LGBTQ community.

And it's like, I just am like, but do we deserve that?

You know, in your wonderful intro, Glenn, and like you saying that we've changed the world, I'm so hesitant to accept that that's possible because to me, there's so much we didn't accomplish.

There's so much we didn't get.

There's so much success that escaped us, you know, that just wasn't available to us.

And I

have definitely shifted my focus to not worry about that, like to remember that legacy is not how many records you sell or how much you stream or how many tickets you sell.

It's like how people feel about you, your family, your friends, you know, people you come into contact with.

Like that's so much more important.

And Sarah and I's focus the last couple years is about building a fuller life, not a bigger life.

You know, we don't have to climb.

It's so significant that Sarah had a kid.

It's so significant that we've been able to take time off and be creative in other ways.

So, yeah, I don't know what the person I'm worried I let down looks like exactly, but I guess I'm worried it might just be everyone around us going, you did so great.

You did so great.

But inside, they're like, ah, it's too bad they missed.

you know, these other things.

And that's probably just insecurity, you know?

I think

just looking at the next crop of young, amazing artists that are coming up, many of whom are queer and I'm so proud of them and so excited for them, but like a lot of them are achieving things we couldn't have dreamed of.

Okay, hold on, stop.

That's like you.

Are you going to talk about you?

Yes.

Okay, good.

Cause I was going to do that.

I can't wait.

Okay.

So first of all, I hear you and I.

can very much empathize with every single thing that you said.

So on the U.S.

women's national team, and you guys probably know a lot more because the Canadian women's national team has had a lot of success recently.

They won the most recent Olympic gold medal, Christine Sinclair.

Amazing.

I lived pretty much what I felt like was a big ish life.

I was very concerned with my legacy and how was I going to change the world.

And I retired.

And then a few years later, the team was able to secure equal pay with our men's national team.

And

quite honestly, I felt and still feel like so jealous and like I didn't do enough myself to help make that happen when it was my time.

But unfortunately, progress is fucking slow as hell.

And so it took longer.

And my impact on the players who were able to get it done.

and on the world at large was really important.

I am certain about that.

And I'm also certain that you two went through and played through probably arguably some of like the most difficult times to be an out queer person.

I mean, it was the Indigo Girls and you two that I saw myself in.

And because of people like you, I was able to stand in my industry in women's sports.

as a queer person.

I mean, I didn't cut my hair short until 2010 because I was afraid I wasn't going to get any marketing deals or any contracts doing commercials.

I still had a long ponytail.

I mean, it's ridiculous, but there you were

as like this beacon of hope.

And unfortunately, it's the folks who pave the path who often don't get the kind of financial reward and the fame recognition.

I understand.

And I have to imagine that you know that you were a bigger part of the bigger picture in the United States and in Canada and worldwide as it relates to the coming up artists.

I mean, my queer daughter, she's able to do that because of you all.

I appreciate that.

I can totally understand the comparison for sure.

And no doubt that you were integral in paving that way for what came after you retired.

I appreciate that.

And I do, I want to be clear that I really have felt it in the last couple of years that like so many artists have come to us and said, thank you so much for being out and thank you for so much for riding those years where it was not cool and hip to be out.

It was really meaningful.

It still really gets me very emotional because I just didn't realize we were having that effect.

And it sounds so naive, but remember that half of our career happened before social media.

And so no one could reach out.

Like the first 12 years of our career was a vacuum.

Like it was just Sarah and I.

We met Ani DeFranco over Zoom last year.

What?

We were in the industry with no peers.

We were so young and it was just a different time.

And now it's so meaningful.

I I mean, I tell people this all the time.

Reach out to people you love.

Reach out and say you appreciate people.

And don't be afraid.

I meet people and it's, I'm sure Sarah's so embarrassed because she's so polite and shy and introverted.

But I just, I'll walk up to anyone and be like, thank you so much for your contribution to our industry, to our life.

Like you've been so meaningful.

Like I don't care about being cool.

To me,

I just was a lonely place for a long time because we just didn't realize we knew the impact with our audience.

We saw that.

Like that's why we built built such an intense connection to them.

It's why we eight years ago started the Tegan and Sarah Foundation was because we literally understood that through our most popular time, that our queer audience stuck with us, that they supported us, and that rather than seeing it as us abandoning them, they saw it as us braving more of the mainstream space for them to say, like, you belong here.

It's okay if you want to be here.

It's totally fine.

There's no reason why there shouldn't be queer women on radio.

So we'll go out there and we'll fight to try to get out on radio.

And they stuck with us.

And it meant so much to Sarah and I because it it was like, oh, okay, these people really

care, you know, year after year after year to hear the impact on these people's lives that they felt like they belonged and existed and were relevant and deserved a good life.

It's still a weird thing that you're just, but there were so many things we could have done.

And maybe we should tour more and maybe we should have done that.

And why didn't we campaign for this?

And like, why don't we,

you know, you just ask those questions.

I mean, and that's just who Sarah and I are.

I mean, we're just always questioning it.

I would also add that, you know, our motivation, and I'm only speaking sort of like from the queer perspective.

I don't know.

I honestly don't know if straight people have this.

Maybe they do.

But my desire to be a musician and like to be seen, but also to be kind of invisible, you know, had a lot to do with my own internalized homophobia.

My acceptance.

It was so much harder for me to put myself out there because I think I actually was so much more vulnerable and so much more sensitive to the rejection, you know, culturally, socially.

And so it was easier for me to sort of stay in my world because I was afraid.

I was so certain that the internalized homophobia that I felt was representative of the homophobia and misogyny that I saw everywhere.

And, you know, Teigen had such a, and I learned this when we wrote our memoir, because when she sent me the draft of her side of the book, I was like, where

in all these pages is Teigen's homophobia?

Because she didn't have any.

And I was like, this is bullshit.

She's lying.

Like there's no way that she didn't fucking despise herself as much as I did.

Like there's just no way.

How is that possible?

Through my own sort of therapy, especially around that time.

And I've like gone to therapy so many times over the last 25 years, couples therapy, all these things.

But one of the most sort of like helpful times for me was when we were writing the memoir, because what I realized is that that little like injured person who you know, lives inside of me, that's the person who's like been driving my career car.

I I just have been like, ah, let's stay on the back roads.

I'm so afraid of the highway, you know, like I just,

that's like the thing that has been so omnipresent.

And Tegan was like, you know, in a like hot red Ferrari on the freeway, being like, get over here, bitch.

She was so confident that we deserve to be there and seemed so, you know, was injured when we would be rejected or we would face homophobia.

But her outrage was coming from a place of like, I absolutely do not deserve this.

This is wrong.

You're wrong.

Whereas I was like, I knew it.

I knew we would be treated this way or whatever.

And I think that that sort of like made the early part of our career really, really complicated.

But it's also that healing that I did like through the process of our career and really around the time of the memoir, it's also made me feel so differently about this like legacy and this conversation about like what we got or what we didn't get.

I have found that.

in sort of like loving little Sarah from before, like when she was all like freaked out and scared and, you know, hiding her queerness or whatever, I've let all of that go.

And I don't long for the kind of accolades and acceptance that I used to.

And I find myself much more sort of like at peace with what we are, what we were, what we will be.

And I feel like it's been so interesting for me.

Tegan has been so much more hyper-focused on.

our legacy.

And I feel like she's having a harder time accepting all of this than I am.

I'm like, if you want to call us humanitarians, because we just had really gay haircuts and donated money to LGBTQ organizations, like, sure, okay, I'll take it.

My hair was really gay.

Like, I'll do it.

You know, like, I feel like I'm like, if this is what the people have determined, I will accept my crown.

You know, like, I'm fine with it now.

Whereas before, I would have been like, no way, self-hating, gay, you know, and now I'm like, fine, I can accept this.

I think to have grace for that is really hard.

And Tegan and I, too, as like Canadians, it's really hard for us.

We live in this perpetual state of self-flagellation and like humility.

Like, no, we don't deserve this.

We're so bad, you know, and it's like, we do deserve it.

Let's just accept it and let's move on.

You know, like, that's how I sort of feel.

And I don't think I would get that from SNL, but I do get that from, like Tegan said, younger queer bands saying, I'm so glad you existed.

You know, that made me feel like I could cut my hair or I could be gay or I could write songs about my girlfriend.

It really, I let that get in the muscle now.

I really accept it.

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It makes so much sense to me, like if your roles, and I know we started this talking about like roles and how you get in them and you stick in them for better or worse.

Yeah.

If Tegan, your role was like, I am the one, I am the like accountability department that is going to make sure that we push ourselves as far as we go and we get that Ferrari going to its max, you know, miles an hour or kilometers or whatever the hell you guys have.

So like, it would make sense then if you were carrying that, that then you would be the one to say, like, was it enough?

Did I push enough?

I was the one who said we could do this.

Did I get us there?

Yeah.

Are you still carrying that?

Well, it's interesting you're saying that.

Like, I guess in a way, yes.

It's weird.

Like, I'm split down the middle because I do feel really proud.

Like, don't get me wrong.

I'm so proud of you.

Well, you sure as hell should.

Yeah.

Like, I feel proud and excited.

And the last 26 years has been amazing.

And by the way, I mean, it's not like we're retired.

I mean, we still put out music.

We're still working.

You know, we still have other projects.

But I think the part of our career where we're climbing and pushing and, and you know obsessed with that campaigning that so many artists have to do at a certain part of their career like that part of us is over we just don't have the time and energy or interest but um

yeah i think there is part of me that absolutely feels like the responsibility of where our band went and what we accomplished was oftentimes driven by me and in a culture that's obsessed with listing accolades and doing that, it's less that we did.

For myself, I don't really care that we didn't accomplish those things.

But when i see people accomplishing those things so easily and i it's pure projection so easily i just mean so early yeah i guess in their career i'm like yeah i have moments where i'm like oh did we give up too soon like in trying to get those things like will we be disappointed that we never went to the grammys is that a weird thing to hold on to maybe

but We decided eight years ago to start to diversify our field, to be creative in other new interesting ways.

We decided to start our foundation.

We decided to start thinking about what family building would look like.

We made a really committed, focused change in our lives to think differently about what success is and would mean.

And I'm still 100% behind that.

But yeah, I have moments where I'm like,

did we give up?

Was it us going, oh, well, we don't belong there anymore.

We don't belong in the mainstream.

So we'll back off.

Maybe a little bit of Sarah creeped in where I was like, back roads.

I mean, I like back roads now.

Now I want to be a farmer.

So the irony of all of this is that Tegan doesn't have a driver's license.

And

I'm not sure why I'm using all of these automobile analogies, but I drive now, not bragging, but Tegan does not.

And so maybe it's just age, like Sarah pointed out, you start to have big questions.

You don't have to have kids leaving home to start reflecting on like, what's the next part of your life going to look like?

We're all in the second part of our lives.

You know what I mean?

The second half.

And that second half, it looks different, I think, for a lot of us than the first half of our life.

I spent my 20s and 30s with a really different focus than I have now.

We're also surrounded by young people who are like using all the language of therapy and trauma.

And it's like they seem so free with it, you know, and then we're still like, I have internalized homophobia, you know, like what's so hard for us.

Can't remember anything.

God damn, go away for a week.

The whole news cycle is different and new language and new ideas.

And no, our artists, musicians now being like, I got to get off the road to protect my mental health.

And I'm like, are you joking?

I toured with whooping cough.

Do you understand that?

We get vaccinated for whooping cough.

No one gets whooping cough since like 1920, but I somehow got it and toured through it.

Just drank a bottle of cough syrup.

The show must go on.

That was our mentality, our whole career was like, go until you break.

And then when you're broken, just prop her up on a mic stand and the other one will take care of it.

You know what I mean?

And now kids are like two months into their record cycle and they're like, I got to take a break.

And I'm like, are you kidding me?

That's amazing.

But it's

very confusing.

Yeah, you feel a little bitter.

It's like you were part of creating these monsters.

And then you're like, who the fuck do you think you are?

I know.

And then you're like, but you're right, but I'm bitter.

You're right.

Because you are right.

You are right.

But like, the other day I was having no, they are.

There's no but.

It is actually truly like, you should take care of yourself.

But you know what the problem is?

Here's my butt.

My butt is that the problem is not the music industry.

The problem is capitalism.

And so when I hear people being like,

my mental health, I'm like, well, we have to, everybody has to put their phones away.

Goodbye, electrical grid.

Which farming thing do you want to learn how to do?

Do you know what I mean?

Like, I go that extreme.

Yes, we do.

I'm like the parent that's like, you think you're tired.

Well, when I was in the music industry with one shoe, you know, carrying Tegan and a guitar and with an antiquated illness, like respiratory, you think COVID's scary?

I'll tell you scary.

Your twin sister getting whooping cough in 2003.

All right.

We couldn't even look up what whooping cough was on the internet.

We just, it just passed around like a rumor, you know, like we think

talked to my aunt Julie in Atlanta and she talked to my uncle in Saskatchewan and they decided that her doctor knew what well, I don't know.

And I think also too, Tegan and I are business owners.

You work your way up and then you have finally control and power and you create these infrastructures.

And then the young people are like, this is an unhealthy work environment and this is not right.

And you're wrong.

And you're like, oh, now I'm the problem.

I'm the problem.

Like, this is what I get.

i worked my way up to the top and now i'm the problem and i'm creating the unhealthy work environment

it's hard it's hard it's really tough but we're so grateful but we're so grateful yeah we're so grateful we're very grateful

everyone

and put that at the end of everything yeah to be clear very grateful and we're having no conflict just having no conflict

so lucky i also think that there is a period of time we're kind of coming into because of

yes i do think that there's a space that everybody needs to learn how to take care of themselves, but it's also opening up a door for like anyone who really wants to fucking hustle and go for it

might actually anyone who's not interested in taking care of themselves is going to really fucking scoring.

They really might.

Because you're up against a lot of like

folks who are meditating and taking a nap.

Yes.

You know?

And taking care of themselves.

And so

that's the, that's the kind of thing that I'm like, yeah, but Tish, you could just sound like old white men Republicans.

That's right.

We're like,

you know what?

If someone's got a little dick to it, they can really get done.

Well, all these

snowflakes are snowflake and we're going to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps.

I know.

It's terrible.

Maybe there's an in-between.

Maybe what I'm getting at is that Tish's generation.

They're going to take better care of themselves, which is awesome.

And that is a product of learning that from us, like our generation.

But also,

we got to get out there in the world.

I joked about this the other day with some friends who have teenagers where I was like, It's hard because even as an adult, I feel it.

You look at social media and you see everyone getting everything, but of course, they're not getting everything, right?

We're only seeing what they're curating, we're only seeing this sort of very varnished, one-dimensional look at their lives.

But it makes you think you can get anything, it makes you feel really entitled and that everything is accessible to you.

And that's tough because it's not.

When we were coming up, there there literally was no model.

As queer people, we could look at like a Katie Lang, Melissa Etheridge, Indigo Girls, Tracy Chapman.

There was a handful of iconic artists, but these were some of the biggest artists in the world.

When Sarah and I were looking for something to compare ourselves to at 19, there was no one, but that was good because we made our own path.

We made our own future.

We literally constructed our career out of just what felt right and good and aspirational and we could actually accomplish.

Nowadays, you compare yourself to everything.

And that's hard to be a young artist or a young person now starting out in the world to think I'm supposed to have this because everyone on the internet has that.

That's tough.

It's a really hard thing for all of us to resist the temptation to compare ourselves.

So true.

I just want to say one thing about kids.

As someone who's now raising a child, as an older person, when we were growing up, we were told 18, we started paying rent.

Our parents were like, you can do anything.

We were operating like power tools in elementary school.

Like we were really, really capable.

And we're not good caregivers.

Our generation is not good at caregiving because we were sort of told, care for yourself, get out there, motivating, you know, like aspirational, you know, like try a million things.

We're entrepreneurial because of that.

We're like, whatever, but we're not good caregivers.

My child is going to be an amazing caregiver because this guy, he's getting love around the clock.

This generation of kids who care about their mental health and their physical health and determining like having a life for themselves that is not as intense as the one that we had, I think it's making them more caring.

They care more about themselves.

They care more about their communities and they care more about the environment.

That's what I'm telling myself.

That's the view I want to see.

Do you guys feel that way?

I hope so.

I agree.

I hope so.

But if they can't answer emails past five o'clock, they are going to find motherhood a very toxic work environment.

I was trying to end on a good note.

I was just trying to like say something nice so that people were like, oh, they get it.

Yeah, exactly.

Everybody's a thumbnail asshole.

It's fine.

Well, I think we have a theme here, which is that it is okay

to know

that there are people

who are benefiting from some things you didn't get to benefit from.

Yeah.

Whether it's in music, whether it's in queerness, whether it's just feminism in general, when I deal with younger people sometimes and they annoy me with all of their

I don't know self-sovereignty

I think

the reason I'm annoyed with you is because you are doing something and being something that I wish I could have been earlier totally of course

so

we all want to haze and we wouldn't call it that but we want to haze people to be as miserable as we are that's right

yeah They're cutting the line.

Right.

And I just want to say that the people that I love and respect the most,

I'm thinking of people right now in my head, but it's just there are people who

forge who they are.

And by their dogged determination to be who they are and be brilliant and be generous with their gifts, they create these communities of people who are so fucking grateful for it that it's truly life-saving.

And then they sort of just spend their life

serving that community in a million different ways.

I feel that way about this community, about the pod squad, and I feel so grateful for it.

And then I get on Instagram and I see the latest list and the latest party and the latest whatever.

And I immediately feel like shit.

Like I just,

it's like I go from gratitude to scarcity in four seconds.

But I think there's a way of success that looks like a ladder.

And like, if you're not on the right rung of the ladder, you can feel unsuccessful.

But what I envision with you guys is there's the ladder, but there's also, if you looked out at the whole landscape of the earth, there's like 40,000,

I'm not good at numbers, million gazillion like little light bulbs that are lit up that are like your success because you have affected people's lives in a way that nobody on that ladder

could ever wish to.

And people are reverse engineering this.

Brandy Carlisle is one of our dearest friends, and she is bound and determined to turn back and lift up every single person.

This is what she's going to be doing for the rest of her life, who didn't get

the ladder shit

because of the world's resistance to queer artists and female artists and whatever.

So I think you were going to see a reckoning

in the next decade,

and you two will be reckoned.

I like the visual.

Just so it's very, very, very clear here that it felt like a choice that Sarah and I stepped away from some of the ladder climbing.

Especially after we'd seen some of the.

Well, yeah, that's the thing.

It's like, I felt like we had a very incredible few years there in the mainstream and it was really amazing and I wouldn't change it for the world.

And I was really excited that we were able to do what we did and accomplish what we did.

But.

But yeah, I think at that point we signaled to ourselves that there was something more that we could do and there was more meaningful work that we put our time into.

And that for a long time was the truth and still is the truth.

But I also, yeah, like in this conversation can admit that there's also part of me that's like, I hope we didn't let anyone down.

Like, I hope it doesn't feel like we gave up.

And I hope that people realize that even though we didn't hit some of those markers or those benchmarks or those goalposts or whatever,

that.

Yeah, maybe when you look down and you look around, there's more significance in some of the other stuff we focused on, from more traditional things like having children to more philanthropic stuff like starting our foundation.

We threw ourselves into a broader spectrum of experiences so that we could feel the impact in a different way.

But you're also talking about looking outward because a lot of times too, the things we're talking about, not to project on you, Abby, but like I always think of like athletes as having to be, you have to have like unbelievable determination.

You have to be so self-focused on your body, on your team, on this thing.

And music is really similar.

You become so obsessed with yourself and your brand and what it looks like.

Yeah.

And I think in some ways, too, there's a freedom in sort of like expanding your world to look outward, working in the LGBTQ community and being more intentional about our philanthropic efforts.

It forced us to stop thinking so much about ourselves.

It forced us to think about the community at large, not just what our like place in it is, like our legacy in it is.

It's actually like, what is our role?

What can we continue to do?

How can we continue to serve and be helpful?

And how can we advocate and pay it back?

You know, like that community lifted us up.

So like now we're, okay, we're up.

So how do we help?

That's always the balance that I use when people are becoming too obsessed with social media or feeling bad or getting that ick feeling about the world out there.

I'm like, are you actually in the world out there?

Because being in the world out there is like getting out there, like, you know, talking to like normal folks and going to do normal things.

And I think sometimes when we're in social media land, we think that that's the real world and it just, it just isn't.

And I know that for us, the work with the foundation foundation and sort of like our knowledge expanding to like, what's the community at large?

What are their needs?

What's happening in Alabama?

What's happening in California?

What's happening in Saskatchewan?

What's happening?

Starting to like understand the sort of network better allowed me to realize our world of like, we're Tegan and Sarah and we're gay and we're doing these things.

I just felt like that just like shattered.

You know, it was like, oh, there's, there's so much we can be doing that isn't going to be determined by if we sell records or get on SNL.

We can do more for our community.

We try to like bring attention to the needs in the community.

And that feels like good work, feels like things that we're doing that don't necessarily have to be highlighted or like public, but it's a way to sort of remind ourselves that we're just like those light bulbs all over the world.

Like we're just all a bunch of people out here trying to live good lives.

That's right.

That's right.

You too.

As the token non-famous person on this call,

we have to do this to stay relatable.

That's why that's my role here.

Yeah.

I am just grateful for your generosity and sharing about that.

When you get to a point, whether you have a big, shiny career like y'all have had, or whether you're a person at this stage of life, no matter if your career has been in a mill, if your career has been at the newspaper, if your career, whatever it is, there's a certain point where you look at it and you say, is it enough?

Sure.

Is it big enough?

Is it good enough?

I'm now like where there was an endless road ahead, there isn't anymore.

And you kind of have to look at it and decide whether you're going to keep striving and pushing or and just get honest with yourself about it.

And so I really appreciate you sharing that because I think it resonates with

anyone who's honestly thinking about their lives.

And I love that whole not

necessarily a big life, but a full life.

That's so beautiful.

I mean, anyone who is evaluating any of your lives would say that is big and full and beautiful and incredible and beyond my wildest dreams.

But each of us can have a full life.

And sometimes maybe

only if we stop striving so hard to make it big.

Exactly.

Because it's like more power, more.

It's like, okay, I know we're stopping, but it's just like.

That's what I want to do.

This is the vibe to me.

Do I just spend my whole life trying to figure out if I have enough power?

Like, did I get enough?

Do I have too much?

Do I have not enough?

Am I important enough?

Am I not important?

And then just being like, instead of trying to spend the rest of my life just gathering power, how do I just use the power that I have?

Yeah.

Oh, God.

Yeah.

That's it.

And also, this is like woo-woo because we're using the word power and like thinking about the internet and whatever, but this is going to sound really woo-woo.

But I have asked myself, starting with COVID, I would think about this a lot.

Does my life work?

Does my life feel good?

without electricity?

Meaning, like, if I'm not on the internet, if I don't have social media, if I can't project outward, and if I'm not taking something in from that, what does my life look like?

And I think the pandemic for me, anyways, like it made me realize.

And again, this is really niche.

I understand.

I know everyone is on the internet.

Like, all people are on the internet.

I admit the public people who make their careers on the internet, this is hard to get away from because I understand there's a real deep connection between the internet and how we market our band and how we connect with fans.

But when everything stopped, I realized like, I like my life.

I don't need my career.

I don't need social media.

I don't need likes.

I love my wife.

I have a child.

I have a great family.

I like taking walks.

I don't know.

Like, I just,

I can be okay with all of that.

Like, I really can.

And I think if you stand in that for a moment and you ask yourself, do I need Facebook and TikTok?

And do I need a fancy career?

And do I need a Wikipedia page that's updated with all my current, you know, updated things?

Forget all of that noise for a second.

And I would say that about people with their kids.

If your kid makes the wrong choice and doesn't go to the top school and and doesn't become an astronaut, are you okay with that?

Like, when you are at the end of your life, do you feel like you raised a kid that you love and who can accept love and give love?

And are you a good person?

And did you mostly do good stuff?

You know, like that's the thing.

You know, it sounds so stupid and woo-woo, but it's like, it's the truth.

It's just the truth.

That's the stuff that's going to matter.

And, you know, Tegan even said this to me recently.

We were having a conflict at work with someone else, not each other.

And she said, we're going to get to the end of our lives.

And the thing that we are going to be known for, that's always been important to us, is that we were good to our family that we were good to our friends that we were good to our community that we were good to each other some of the time and so i think that stuff is so important especially as we get into this age where we are looking back and i think it's like yeah does your life work without electricity that's that's my new motto let's leave it at that god damn you guys are so wise and good

we're gonna come see you you're like two hours from our house so me and tish and abby are gonna come see you

very very excited we just you're talking about to a show right you're not like inviting yourselves to their houses you could

two hours away from us we're coming come on over leave the door open well we'd love that let's make sure that we get connected offline so that we can um host you

great thank you guys thanks for who you are yeah thanks for who you are we love it thank you for you guys being who you are and i feel like we could talk for hours so really appreciate it yeah we definitely went over so sorry yeah sorry sorry we took too much of your time actually we really have never done that before.

You're too irresistible.

This is literally the first time we've gone over.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My fault.

Sorry.

No, again, see, that's a nice accolade.

It was really lovely.

It was honestly a really lovely conversation.

And almost every single time we end up doing an interview, it's so funny afterwards because people will be like, oh my God, they talk so much.

I needed more time.

And at first, I remember in our early part of our career, I was like, we should be more succinct, but we can't.

We don't know how to.

We just kind of ramble.

So thanks for letting us ramble at you guys.

You're perfect.

You should change nothing about yourselves.

Okay.

Go off to your day.

The end.

The end.

The end.

Bye, pod.

See you next time.

Yeah, bye, pod squad.

Bye, everyone.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

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We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wombach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LeGrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.