Jealousy: Glennon & Abby Share It All

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Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

Hi.

Hi, it's just you and me, babe, today.

I know.

It's just you and me.

It's just you and me.

You and me, babe.

What we're going to talk about today

is

something that we have talked about oh low so many times by ourselves.

Can you tell me

you and sisters say oh low so many a lot?

I don't know what that means.

You're probably just jealous because it's kind of like old-fashioned Victorian term, which is more in your lane because you are a Victorian on the inside.

Yeah, okay.

So what is my jealousy about?

Oh, here we are.

Okay, so this episode, y'all, is about jealousy.

Okay.

And we thought we had one question

from a pod squatter about jealousy, and we thought we would just answer it in 10 minutes and move on.

We ended up talking about the depths of the jealousy in our relationship and what it means and what it doesn't.

And we have come to many, low, so many conclusions during this conversation.

And it's been so helpful.

I know.

I actually am so grateful that we, because in marriage, you, whether you're in couples counseling, like we process so much, but we've never done it in a way that we knew that this stuff would go out into the world.

And so

to me, it was extraordinarily helpful because we were very conscientious of our words, which is really good for therapy, really good for communication in marriage, number one.

And number two, we hadn't talked about this in a long time.

It's like the undertone, the knowing, like the, and I wouldn't say an elephant, but this thing in our relationship

that we've never really kind of broken down into the details of what we really think and feel about it.

And so to me, I'm grateful.

I feel like I learned a lot today.

Yeah.

And it feels like pod squad, listen, you tell us what you think.

But for me,

what it came down to

is trust,

not just of each other, but of ourselves.

And what I realized at the end of this conversation is I am really starting to trust the pod squad.

Whoa.

I think that that has, as always, boundaries helps trust.

And I think I have gotten us a little bit off of social media.

And so the pod squad feels safe and real to me

because I know that most people don't hate listening to podcasts.

Hate listen.

But they do hate follow.

So.

I don't know.

It's kind of a beautiful thing.

I realized, oh my God, I'm saying things that I don't normally say out loud.

And I think it's because I actually trust this community.

But that's also because I have self-trust enough to be like, actually, this social media thing is no good for me.

Yeah.

So you got you.

I got me.

Okay, we can't go into the whole thing.

Okay, okay, they have to listen.

Y'all, just listen.

Tell us what you think.

We love you.

I don't know where this next one's gonna go, but I'm very curious to hear what you have to say, Abby.

Let's hear from Sarah.

Okay.

My name is Sarah, and I am calling because I have not heard the episode on jealousy yet, though I have heard you touch on it a little bit throughout other episodes.

And I would love to hear your experience with jealousy, how you manage it, what you do, what comes up, what are your major issues with jealousy.

Also, extension question for Glennon and Abby.

I would like to know how you handle friendships with other women as a queer couple.

I'm also queer.

And I've noticed in the heterosexual cisgender world, there's a little bit of a clearer line.

Like, I'm a guy, I hang out with guys, I'm a girl, I hang out with girls, and maybe a guy taking out a woman to dinner who's not his wife would be a cause for concern.

But in queer relationships and a lesbian relationship, how do you navigate who is a friend and a safe person, and who

is someone you might feel threatened by, given given that you're hanging out with mostly women.

Thank you.

I love your show so much.

Oh no.

Sarah, if you could see us

processing our emotions in real time right now.

Abby is squirming.

We are stretching.

We are moving.

We are sweating.

I would like to say that I wish that my answers would be different.

So you're going to tell the truth.

Yeah.

But you you have a okay.

Okay, but that's interesting.

So you have an ideal self.

Yeah.

And you have an actual self.

Yeah.

I don't even know where to start with this.

We have jealousy issues, Sarah.

I feel like they're getting less and less.

Yeah.

As we get what?

Older, we trust each other more.

I don't know what.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, a little context, though, our jealousy issues are kind of fair.

because of where we came from.

Okay, yeah.

So here's the deal, Sarah.

I have never,

I'm just going to give you my trauma first as an excuse for my jealousy because

context.

And then I will also.

Okay.

I have been like a kind of serial monogamist my whole life.

You too.

But whenever I've been in a monogamous relationship, I have been the only monogamous one.

It's been very mono.

Okay.

It's just me.

So you've been cheated on in every relationship.

Single.

I have never,

ever.

since high school.

And I've probably been in about like seven or six or or seven long-term relationships right i mean long-term meaning some of them are high school like i was in 10th grade and right yeah i mean i would say you probably had three or four but no

i think it's been about five okay okay great five we were we will land on five and talk about it later okay great

i feel jealous because i feel like i don't think that math adds up and my jealousy is like okay let's

talk about okay thank you we've got when i was in okay well i want to start early then When I was in eighth grade, I was very in love with someone named Adam.

Okay.

He cheated on me.

Okay.

How long were you in that relationship for?

Who knows?

It felt like a very serious relationship to me.

It might have been a week.

Okay.

Okay.

Then I dated a person named, should I change their names?

I'm going to start with the first letter that's right and then change it.

Sorry, Adam, I already did you.

There was a Joe.

Okay.

And I was a sophomore.

Okay.

That was like a year long.

Okay.

Two years, maybe?

I don't know.

Yeah.

And we will will never know because sister would be good with the facts right here because she would know all of these dates.

And then there was, we'll call him Bill.

Okay, so that's three.

Right.

And then there was,

well, Craig, and everyone knows Craig.

Okay, so you're right.

It's four.

I knew it.

Okay, so

there wasn't a secret one in there.

The point is, that I thought in all of those relationships that I was in a exclusive relationship.

And it wasn't just my feeling like that had been discussed.

And not a one of them ended up being exclusive.

All of them were

cheating on me in one way or another.

Now,

I'm not here to judge them or myself at this moment because I have done lots of judging privately over the last whatever.

It's interesting.

I do see that there's one common denominator in all of those relationships and it's me.

So I assume there's something there.

But I present all this to say that when I entered the relationship with Abby, I was absolutely certain, even though I don't think I would have known this, but my body was certain that I was going to be cheated on again.

So I was.

preparing myself because I knew I couldn't control the cheating because I never had been able to before, but I felt like I could control my vulnerability to it.

Like I could control whether I was stunned and wiped out again by it.

No, that's not true.

You can't really control that, but that's what I told myself.

So the way that I protected myself was to just be ready.

And often to search for evidence of it.

Because it's better to be the detective that discovers it.

than to have a detective knock on your door and say, we have discovered this thing about your life.

Is that true?

That's what I

thought.

That was my old way.

Got it.

Got it.

I've told the story before, but I mean, it got to the point where Abby, I think you walked out of the shower once and I was going through your phone.

And this is very early on.

Like, there were no signs that anything.

I just was

protecting myself.

And I used to be so crazy jealous.

Oh my God.

I think something that is interesting about the jealousy between the two of us is that I am,

and still, still,

I get jealous when you have any

apparent connection to someone who,

quote, looks like me.

Apparent connection?

Apparent, like something that I can see.

Oh, not a space parent.

No, apparent, like clear.

A clear.

Like clear connection.

Like even if it's just you like them or you're friends with them or they like you or whatever.

I feel alarmed

when it feels like that person is in my femme lane.

You

tell the people, let's just get me out of the hot seat and move to you.

Yeah.

Tell us your jealousy origin story.

My jealousy origin story, basically, I, I was in a lot of relationships with bisexual women, which

many of whom

left to go be with their

husbands.

Not that they were with the husbands, but we would split up and then they would end up being with men.

And,

you know, I've had partners who emotionally and physically have cheated on me before, and

it left me feeling like I was the problem.

Yes.

And that there was something that I was unaware of.

that I was doing in the relationships that was causing this behavior, that I wasn't good enough, that I wasn't lovable, all this stuff.

So knowing knowing all that, when we first got into, there's this tug, like push-pull where like we have incredible connection that I am terrified that anybody else will come into our lives and

even a millimeter separate us.

And so I have been

very vocal with you about some of the people that have come into our lives

that I have an insecurity about, that I feel insecure.

And early on in our marriage, I think I would say something like, be careful with that one.

It would be so passive aggressive.

Be careful with that one.

And I'd put all the onus back on you rather than honoring my insecurity and owning my own insecurity.

And that's unfair.

But

We all have our trauma.

And like when trauma rises, like it's hard to know how to navigate that.

So we have had a couple of people that have come into our lives that I feel really uncomfortable and insecure.

Maybe I have not said the word insecure because that feels less cool and strong.

So I would say I feel uncomfortable in some way around it.

And many of these folks are still in our lives.

We just had to work through it.

Yeah, that's interesting.

Sometimes you've been right.

Yeah.

Where the person actually eventually did cross a line that we were uncomfortable with, but oftentimes that wasn't true at all.

Yeah.

The thing that works for you and me is like true transparency.

Like, I feel 100% confident to come to you and you not freak out.

In my past, I would come to the person with a fear or an insecurity, and I would feel like I'd be gaslit.

And that's something that you don't do.

You're like, oh, wow, okay.

And you really think through it and hear me and see it from my perspective.

And then also the way that you handle,

because when I come to you with an insecurity, you then have a choice.

You get to either continue that relationship with no difference, or you can kind of come at that relationship with a little bit of difference so that it makes me feel more comfortable and more secure.

And you are really good at doing that.

And so, I don't know.

I just think that that's really been helpful because it's given our relationship and the relationship with another person space to be what it's supposed to be rather than my imagination of what it could be worst case scenario.

You know, and I do think when we're watching a show and somebody who presents more masculine, a woman who presents more masculine and wears the clothes that I wear, and you're like, oh my gosh, you said one time, that is a beautiful human.

My feelings got hurt.

Yeah.

Do you remember who that was?

No, I would never, even if I did, I would not say it out loud.

Right.

I remember that moment.

And then you just looked at me like I had just stabbed you in the heart.

Yeah, because it was a non-binary person.

I thought that that lane was kind of solely, like my attraction was like so that, and that lane was like me and only me.

Oh, wait a minute.

Okay.

So is it when I allude to something like that,

Is it

that you suddenly feel like my attraction to you is less individual.

It's like, oh no, she just has a sexuality that is this type.

Yeah.

And that's not what we are telling ourselves.

We are telling ourselves like early days when I said on to a freaking magazine reporter when they were asking me, What are you?

What are you?

And I said, I'm Abisexual.

Like, I can't, first of all, believe that I said that.

That's so cheesy.

But you like that vibe.

I do.

It makes me feel safe and good.

And also,

I will be totally honest right now.

This is going to make me feel like a little bit icky and cringy for my own self.

Okay.

I actually feel that way about you.

I know that I have claimed myself to be lesbian and I have been in many lesbian relationships, but the way that my brain and my heart work,

because of my extraordinary monogamy,

I like literally have no eyes

other

people.

Doesn't matter what they are.

Okay.

So let's say you watch a show.

Your truest, honest self here, pretend this chair will shock you if it's not totally true.

Okay.

Okay.

So you're watching a show and there's someone who is beautiful.

You don't think that person is beautiful?

Oh, no, I do.

I think they're beautiful, but I don't, it's not on the same neural pathway that makes me go, oh, I want to have sex with them.

Like their kind of beauty is a kind of beauty I would want to sleep with.

That's not something that I have ever thought since meeting you about another person.

So you notice the beauty, but it's like noticing a beautiful flower or something.

You can appreciate the beauty, but there's no desire attached to it.

Yeah, and there's no meaning to it for me.

It's just like an open, like, oh, a factual thing.

And maybe your attraction for other people is different than mine.

No, I get that.

Kind of attraction, but I don't associate it with

what

maybe other people do when talking about attraction.

Like, oh, I'm attracted to that person.

I want to be with that person.

I want to see them naked and I want to sleep with that person.

Like, I know that's generalization on attraction here, but I'm like, oh, interesting.

That's it.

It like never goes a step further.

Yeah.

I always think it's so interesting when we're hanging out with a couple and they are freely expressing their appreciation for other people's beauty or in the relationship.

And we are so

I feel that that is a very, whenever I am around it, I feel like that is a very evolved way to be.

Yeah, we're not there yet.

We're not evolved about this.

No, we're not there yet.

The other day, I think I said,

I said something.

And as soon as it came out of my mouth, I felt bad about it because I thought that maybe it made you feel bad.

Oh, it was Craig's sister.

I was like, she's so beautiful.

And that was like real for me.

Then I thought about it through your eyes and I didn't want you to have any feelings about it.

And so I think I probably stumbled my words after that.

But it was just like a factual statement leading and having no other meaning.

I think you probably read my energy in that moment and I did stiffen a little bit, but the reason I stiffened is because,

and this is not correct.

Okay.

Don't be like this, people.

But the kids were there and in my head, I was doing mental gymnastics about, I don't like.

Oh, for them.

Yeah, for them.

I just don't like

beauty standards confirmed by us in front of the kids.

I don't know how to explain it.

I just don't like

when we define what is beautiful and it matches what culture has defined as beautiful.

And then we

say that to the kids.

I don't know how to explain that in a way, but that's what was going on in my body in that moment.

I get it.

And that sounds right.

Really?

Yep.

You're right.

It's like if you see, like, a

someone who's like a,

you know, six foot two, blonde, big, boobed, whatever, like, whoever's like the standard.

Six foot two blonde.

What?

I don't know.

Whatever's the standard.

I don't know.

No, it's not.

Like the standard of white supremacy.

Giant.

Okay, whatever.

I don't know height.

I'm very

all of us tall girls, tall girls around

are like clapping so hard because none of us six foot two blonde, big boobed.

And maybe maybe I'm wrong but I think that a lot of us tall girls don't like our tallness

because yeah we just don't like whatever we have yeah but my point is

I feel like there's something that Yabba talks about that always makes me like

Dr.

Yaba Blight like unfurl inside like I'm like oh that's true I like when beauty is something that we because beauty should be something that's so idiosyncratic you know it's like something inside of us sees something that lights us up from the inside.

And so beauty is so personal.

And so I love it when people notice something that's beautiful to them, that it feels personal.

It doesn't feel like, oh, yeah, the culture has taught her that that's beautiful.

So she says that's beautiful.

I don't know.

Do you know how?

Yeah, I mean, it really makes sense.

And especially in front of the kids.

Okay, here's what I mean.

This one time we were in Hawaii

and we were on a family vacation and we had just gotten done with a day on the beach, and we were all together as a family.

We stopped by this, like, pokey

stand on the side of the road, and we were just all sitting there, and we were all like salty.

And Tish looked at me across, or maybe it was Emma, I don't remember, across the table and said, Mom, you're beautiful.

And I felt it.

I felt like she looked at me and she saw something

that made her unfurl from the inside that was true to her, I could accept that.

Like I felt it.

When I am

dolled up, hair bleached,

and by the way, I don't do this anymore, but the decades I spent with my anorexic self, hair bleached, lashes on,

spanks on,

walking out into the world, and somebody would say to me, You're so pretty.

I

ever felt that as personal to me.

What I felt like they were saying is they were looking at me and they were thinking, Wow,

you did a good job matching yourself to the cultural expectation in our white supremacist world

of beauty standards.

Yeah.

You must have worked your ass off for that.

Good job looking outside yourself, gathering a bunch of data about what this world

decides it has worth and and painstakingly molding yourself to that model.

Like when people said, you're so pretty at that time, I heard, you're a good soldier.

You're a good soldier.

It had nothing to do with beauty, like true beauty, how I feel about it.

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So I think we've digressed a little bit.

Yes, but, but I liked that digression.

No, I know, but I do want to get a little bit to more of the question that Sarah asked because I think it's important.

How do we discuss our jealousy?

How do we get through our jealousy?

What is jealousy?

Yeah.

What is jealousy?

I think it's the belief, the fallacy that we

own somebody else and nobody else is allowed to be a part of that ownership.

Yes, I get that.

I think that's right.

Because I do also, I do believe that I own you and I don't want anyone else thinking that they can even rent you.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

Damn it.

And it's not healthy for sure.

And I think that we have some work to do around this.

I do too.

Because I do think it's taken us both a long time

because of our backgrounds.

Like first couple of years, it was so love and everything, but we were both kind of like still side-eyeing each other to see any break, look for any kind of

chink in the armor.

Yes.

And I think that we've gotten far, here we are, like seven years later or eight years later.

And I think that we're just now starting to believe, I truly think that this is true, that this is it, that I actually am starting to trust you.

Like, I did a therapy session and I couldn't say it out loud.

I couldn't say I trust Glennon because it was too terrifying.

It was too terrifying.

And then I forced myself to come to say it to you.

I want you to know that I trust you.

And what I meant was like, don't fuck this up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I know.

You said, I trust you, like it was a threat.

It was.

It is a threat.

And that's an uninvolved way of explaining.

Maybe it's not even a true way of saying, I trust you, because I'm threatening.

It's like with narrow eyes, I trust you, motherfucker.

Yeah, exactly.

And so like, I want to get to the place where it's like, no, I trust her with every relationship she will ever have for the rest of her life.

It's so terrifying, though, because it's like, true trust is like, here, I give you the power to annihilate me.

Yep.

But that is true anyway.

And that's just true.

That's love.

That is the definition of love.

Is it when you get into a relationship with anybody and you love them and you truly love them,

giving them access to truly annihilating you, I think that is the risk we all take.

Yeah.

And you just have to do it over and over again.

Because if you don't do it, even if you've been cheated on in every relationship of your life like me.

Not this one.

Right.

If you don't give over the power of annihilation, you're already annihilated.

That's exactly right.

Then you're not fully there.

Then you're always waiting for the shoe to drop.

Then you're always looking for evidence.

Then you're always even keeping your eye open.

I just wanted to say also that Sarah called out how tricky

friendships this is in

queer relationships, but

it should be this tricky in all relationships.

It's just that in heterosexual relationships, it's easier to be like, that's a guy, so no, you can't hang out with him.

That's a girl, so no, you can't.

It's a fake power control that's right right it's a fake safety mechanism it's like the manifestation of the bullshit christian rule like i don't hang out with women for more than 10 minutes which is really just a complete denial of everyone's full humanity and like the goal i think for us as we keep going through our marriage is to

when insecurity arises try to handle that so we don't even have to go to the other person and to completely trust.

Yeah.

And like over these last seven or eight years, I have learned to really trust you.

And so the more we keep going, I think that the less the jealousy will happen because the more certain, I guess I don't even know if certainty is the right goal to look for.

Safe, the more safe I will feel and the more healed the wounds inside of me.

Yes.

get.

But for now, it's a beautiful thing that we are protecting each other's trauma.

Yeah, that is exactly right.

If somebody was attacked by a tiger

and then they got into a marriage, it would be okay

for the other partner to be like, I know it's weird to never go

to the zoo, but I'm going to choose that because it's your particular trauma.

Yeah.

That was something that was really important in our vows, that we were never going to use the deepest wounds against each other.

Yeah, because it's like the should of it all can really fuck you up.

Like, we should be able to do this.

We should be able to do this.

Well, the thing will always remain that we are human beings and should helps us not at all.

I also think that there is a way that

jealousy has actually, if you're a jealous person, in some ways, it has actually nothing to do with your relationship.

And it's stuff that you can help in your own individual work.

Because for me,

letting go of trying to control other people's brains is part of this.

Yeah.

And what I mean by that is, okay, I'm just going to give a total random example, but let's say you're at an event and there's a bunch of femme women just like me?

Yes.

Okay.

I'm annoyed even talking about it, but just like gagaing over you.

Yeah.

You know?

What I'm saying to the pod squad, because I love you and I'm going to be vulnerable with you, is

I know Abby's not going to cheat on me with those women.

I just don't even want them thinking

that they have a chance, that they have

in, that they might if they tried hard enough.

I don't want them to even think it.

That is my jealousy.

Now listen to how insane that is.

What I would like to do to solve my jealousy is to just control millions of women's brains.

If I could just control your brain, don't even think it.

Yeah.

So, what I'm trying to connect that with is

my

work

has largely been to understand and accept that I cannot control other people's thinking.

That's right.

I cannot control other people's narratives.

I am not responsible

for

changing or controlling the narrative of anyone except for my own.

So I have to allow

everyone to think whatever they want.

That

is insanity to me.

I have to let

everyone

think

whatever they want, want whatever they want, imagine whatever they want.

Wow.

I need to tell you something more embarrassing.

Okay.

And I don't know if you can relate to this.

I think that you can, but,

and this is so unhealthy, and I know it,

but I kind of love when you get a little jealous, it makes me feel like you love me.

I love when you get jealous because it makes me feel less crazy because I'm always the jealous one.

You're more jealous than me outwardly.

Oh, it's because I tell you the truth when I feel vulnerable.

Yeah, that's not fair for you not to.

No, I know, I know.

I

go through a process of insecurity

that I

think through and I'm like, you're fucking crazy.

Sometimes I go through my process of insecurity and I come out the other side and I talk to you about it.

Recently, I had to have a conversation with you about something.

Yes.

And the fact that we can come to each other with this jealousy is everything

because it's going to happen.

We're human beings for whatever reasons, for whatever our backgrounds are.

The way that we hold space and hold each other's jealousy when it shows up, that's why I think it works is because you don't fly off the handle.

I wasn't when you first were looking at your phone, I wasn't, give me my fucking phone back.

Like, what are you doing?

I was like, Oh,

what else do you need to see?

I mean, Pod Squad, if you have not heard that story before, when she caught me with her phone in my hand going through her texts,

she looked at me and said, Oh, honey, what else do you need?

Do you want my email password?

What else do you need?

which

i don't even know what to say about that that was really i i understand that for some people that's an invasion of privacy i totally get it but based on your wounds based on me knowing your wounds based on my wounds that felt like such an easy thing to do that felt like the easiest thing to do the thing that i think that most partners would really

benefit from by just really being like, oh, what do you want to know?

Is jealousy like a deferred trend?

Like, what I do think is interesting is

while I am working on trusting you, which I do now,

what I trust most and forevermore is myself.

And I think one of the things that infidelity does

is it's not just about breaking trust with the other person.

It's not just that that you go around not trusting other people your whole life.

What's so fucked up about it is that it makes you not trust yourself.

Yeah, you're gaslighting your own self.

Because you have been allowing yourself to gaslight yourself.

Or I have had relationships where I kind of suspected the other person was cheating, but then they told me so many times and then I talked myself out of it over and over again.

I have had that experience.

I have had the experience where I was completely and totally blindsided by it and I didn't have any suspicion.

The cruelty of it is that it makes you think that you can't trust yourself to know other people or make decisions about yourself.

Because there were probably so many different signs and intuitive or instinctive feelings that you had prior to the telling of it, prior to the truth coming out.

And those moments, I think, are where the wounds are created.

Because those moments, you have this instinct, whether it's fear or jealousy or whatever, something is happening.

Some part in you is coming up.

Yes.

And when you get gaslit or lied to for a considerable amount of time,

you start to not trust your own instinct or your own feelings that arise.

And so then when the house of cards falls down and they come to you with the information, the actual truth, or even half of the truth, or a tenth of the truth, or a little bit of the truth, or, oh, no, it was just an emotional affair.

Those things

make you feel not only devastated by the actual trauma, by the betrayal,

but it makes to me, it was more devastating because I knew it.

Yes.

And I lied to myself and I pretended not to know it.

And then because of all of those circumstances, then I don't really trust myself anymore or the feelings that arise.

And so you end up keeping people so far away, not just because you don't trust other people, but because you don't trust yourself.

You think, I have to keep keep you so far away because I don't even trust that if I start feeling suspicious, I'll handle my business.

That's exactly right.

I will be totally annihilated.

That's exactly right.

I will gaslight myself.

I will get to the point of ruin again.

Yeah.

But I think there's an and both here.

I think that my work has been,

okay, there's enough evidence here with you that is not just outside, but inside my body, that I can trust you.

And

one of the reasons that I can trust you and let you close is is that I know that I have my own back.

That the second I start to feel

something is off, I am going to honor that.

It's not going to be a slippery slope anymore.

I am going to not gaslight myself.

If I'm in a relationship where somebody betrays me or my trust in whatever way, I'm going to get my ass out.

Right.

So it's like

sometimes the only people who can actually trust other people are the people who deeply trust themselves.

It's a very big act of power

to trust another person and let them in because it implies I've got my own back here.

I can let you in because I can get you the fuck out anytime I want to.

For me, that's probably too belligerent, but that's like where I am now.

That rings true.

That rings really true.

And also, I'm sure everything that we have been saying is couched.

And I just want to say this, like it's couched all in our own idea

and our own experience with the traumas that we experience throughout our life.

And so, it's very personal to you and me.

Yeah.

So, I just want to make sure that we're not claiming this is the way jealousy is.

Oh, God, I hope not.

I hope not everybody is thinking this.

I hope there's more healthy versions of it out there.

This is just kind of how we run through it, and it's not a perfect circle.

It's like some days it just shows up.

And I think that we have found a way to communicate that isn't scary.

I think we have also,

when in doubt, we have prioritized each other's comfort over what is normal.

That's sane.

That's right.

And that is right.

That is what we might be moving towards like.

In a lot of ways in our life.

I think that's kind of how we've built trust.

We've had situations where you tell me, I don't like that.

I don't know why.

I don't like that blossoming friendship.

And I have, well, forever, I didn't trust my own Gator or whatever about this because

no one has worse Gator than me.

I didn't know I was gay.

I didn't know my kids were gay.

I never knew anyone's gay.

Because I think that we, yeah, yep, you're right.

But it's so confusing.

I've had situations where I have looked at that blossoming friendship or that whatever and thought, oh,

I really like this person.

I really like

this

friendship.

I think this would be a good thing for me.

And I have thought really carefully about,

and truthfully, I'm thinking I don't want to hurt that other person's feelings.

I'm thinking that person

needs me, or

I don't know.

Maybe I like being needed in that way.

I'm not sure.

It's usually somebody who needs something from me, right?

It's a random new person who showed up in your life that they have some sort of crisis or problem, that you're the person they've selected.

That is how I always start my friendship.

I know.

And so then,

because it's starting in such an intense way,

that also feels

out of balance to me.

It's like intimacy skipping.

We haven't even met.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, we, we don't even know each other.

And here you are, like diving into the most intense shit of their personal lives.

And that is hard for me because there is a way that you interact with folks in this way that is so beautiful and so loving.

And

it reminds me of the way that you parent our children, that you are just like so much love and it's so beautiful.

And if I were on the other end of that,

I wonder.

if any of it could be confusing to them.

I think that

it is simpler for me and easier and more controllable and safer has been over time.

I'm always like the EMT friend.

Like I am the person who you should come to when you have a crisis.

Yeah.

I will get in it with you.

It won't even make sense.

Like I will get in it with you in a way your best friend won't.

Yes.

I will show up for you.

You will be the best.

Who the hell is this person coming in like a tornado, helping me with my shit?

But then you must know that you will never hear from me again.

Yeah, no, it's true.

But that's not normal.

No, I know, but I just want you to know that there are people that fall in love with the EMTs that save their lives.

Yeah, I hear that.

And I think it's not totally healthy.

It's like, I don't know how to slowly and deliberately and sanely build friendship.

I don't know how to do that.

It feels stressful to me.

It feels like.

It's going to take too long.

It's going to take too long.

What is it called when people fall in love with their therapists?

Trauma bonding?

No, it's mirroring or some sort of...

Anyway,

I

understand

why that would cause...

Is that jealousy on your part?

Because you're also trying to control that other person's narrative.

You don't want them to think that I love them.

Yeah.

I'm scared that

some of the ways in which you communicate with these very new friends that are in a crisis could be perceived from their perspective as

little drops of real feelings.

Okay.

Are you worried about me getting wrapped up in that and also feeling little seeds growing with that other person?

No, I'm worried about the other person feeling feelings for you because you're amazing and you're beautiful.

And if anybody in the whole world understands that, it is this guy.

This guy.

like i am the one who understands

how

especially when you're in a crisis how wonderful you are and how loving you are and how

if i'm them that's the thing if i am those people

i'm falling in love with you

because i did and so that's part of the thing that i get a little confused about is i don't want anybody to fall in love with you but then i'm also like how is not everybody falling in love with you you?

I think we're both trying to control other people's brains then.

Totally.

I don't want to do that.

Of course, in my like capital S self, I can't do that.

I know that.

But then again, I also feel like if we really want to keep protecting the marriage, our connection, our love, there are times where I've called marriage and I'm like,

I don't feel good about it.

And you're like, okay,

great.

I don't know why.

I can't locate why.

Well, because that's the moment you know it's trauma.

Yeah.

And you just say, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that's also because you're not trying to control me.

That is something that some couples could use against each other is just constantly say it's trauma.

Yeah.

But no, we don't do it often.

It's like once every three or four years that something or someone comes into our life that I'm like, I don't, this feels off.

Like it just feels a little bit too much.

And so you

change because the other thing of it too is like

valuing this non-friendship with somebody else more than our marriage.

It doesn't make sense to compare the two in a way because we would always choose our marriage more than anything.

But I think that's too simplifying it.

So if I were like, look, value our marriage.

Don't go to those places where all those femme women are falling all over you.

value our marriage.

That's oversimplifying it because no, what you're doing is your work out in the world.

And for me, I think it's not about the friendship.

Clearly, I'm never going to talk to this person after I get help them through the crisis.

It's for me, it's about my self-worth in the world.

It's like, oh, this is how I know how to do this,

even if it's not healthy, which I, as I'm hearing myself talk, I don't think it's the most healthy form of service or connection, maybe.

But it is what I know.

It's like how I know how to be important.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

Okay.

What we can say, Sarah.

Sarah, if your point was to call in and be more confused after you heard the response than you were.

You're welcome.

You're welcome.

You are welcome.

But what I do think is true is that jealousy, we put it in this teeny little category, like it's just one thing we have to worry about.

And

the reason why it's complicated is because it's about everything.

It's not one little thing.

It's about trust.

It's about self-trust.

It's about love.

It's about communication.

It's about connection.

It's about being annihilated.

It's about friendship.

It's everything.

Transference is the word.

Our producer just texted it.

Transference is the word that happens when you are like in therapy and you fall in love with your therapist.

Well, if it's true that people fall in love with the person that swept into their life, helped them with the crisis and left, there are so many people in love with me out there.

I know.

That's my problem is I do think that there are a lot of people that might think

they know you, that might think that they have real feelings for you.

Well, as a public person, it's just a thing.

I know that that's true for me.

Exactly.

That people think that they know me and they think that they actually have real feelings for me, but it's just, it's not true.

And I also want to thank you for honoring my trauma through all of this.

Oh, same.

Because I really don't think that I could be in a position to even start thinking about really trusting you.

Yeah, it's like people think that what will help people out of their trauma to more normalcy is if they just keep telling them that's not how they should be.

Yeah.

Like you could have, when I was looking through your phone, the more logical response would have been, why do you need that?

What are you doing?

And instead, for you to take the approach of,

what else do you need?

You didn't think, why the hell did you need that, you loser?

You thought, thought, oh, it's so

sad, but also precious that you need that.

And what else can I give you that you need?

Yeah.

That will help build trust.

Yeah.

Which is quite a beautiful thing.

And I will say this.

I trust you.

I've really,

no

aggressive, passive, aggressive threat.

I trust you too.

I think you're the first person in my whole life that I have ever truly trusted with

my sincere happiness and with my sincerest, like the love that I have.

Like you protect me and you hold the love that you have for me precious.

And I do think that jealousy is real and a human.

And

I think that we're going to keep working on this forever, you know, and keep talking about it.

And I'm sure it will evolve and morph into different things.

But more than anything, I feel

stunned that I could trust somebody.

And you've gone through it.

You've gone through it all.

And you've proven to me more times than are required.

And it's like the relentlessness to continue to prove it is what makes me know.

It's not like a one-time thing where you're like, oh, no, now I, because I told you you could look through my phone, now you must trust me.

It's like, no, it's constant.

Yeah.

And because we're lesbians who work together and are together 24/7,

I know that I'm constantly

codependent and enmeshed in ways that my work too is to not try to manage and worry so much about any kind of disconnection for fear that it could threaten the relationship, right?

And that's ultimately, I think, what jealousy is, too.

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I also think there's just letting the world love your person is okay.

Like when I think about what little moments that I get jealous, like when someone comes up to us and they, this is

annoying of me, but like when someone comes up to us and I can see that they're not seeing me at all.

Yeah.

And they're only seeing you and the eyes are locked in and they are like, I love you.

I need a picture.

I need a whatever.

And I'm like, oh, my God.

I think what's happening in my body is I'm like,

they're not seeing us as a unit.

I don't even exist.

They're just seeing Abby.

They only know Abby without Glennon.

Right.

And I think I'm getting closer to the point where I'm like, oh, my God, that's so beautiful.

Yeah.

But there's always a part of me that feels like.

I'm going to disappear.

That makes a lot of sense.

Like, oh my God, am I visible?

Like, do I exist?

And when we first met,

that was more profound.

I think now the tides have shifted a little where it actually happens the reverse, where people come straight up to you.

And because I have had this established fame-ish thing that people know me for what I did on the soccer field, I have not had that insecurity of becoming invisible.

And so when people come up to us now and they're like, Glennon, and then ultimately always is like, Oh, and Abby, it's this thing: like, I love being your wife, particularly

yours.

And

I can imagine what it must feel like to feel that people don't see you.

And so, I don't know how to help in those moments.

I mean, maybe yesterday felt really good for you at Target.

Oh my God, let us end with this gem.

Yesterday at target i

went in for

something candy for the kids so 380 later oh my gosh it was 190.

okay whatever we just

you don't even stand by the cash i can't i can't look she goes away i cannot look i and the cash register so upset by how much we spend there we pull in line and the cash register is kind of giving me the

looking at me looking back to the stuff looking at me looking back to the products scanning the items.

Why?

Because you thought, because he was recognizing you.

Recognizing me.

And I'm like, okay, here it comes.

Right.

And he was like mentioning, you didn't happen to play soccer.

And I said, I did.

And he said, are you?

And I said, I'm Abby.

And he's like, oh, my gosh.

And so he then goes into the, you know, his history and he was a coach, et cetera, et cetera.

And then

I walk back up because I'm trying to miss the total.

So I make myself busy and then I come back after the total is done.

It's not good.

It's a sleeping beauty approach to finances.

I know that.

Okay.

It's bad.

I know.

I'm working on it.

Maybe.

I'm thinking about working on it.

Yeah, there you go.

And then the man looks at me, then he looks back at Abby and he says, No, no, hold on.

He doesn't say.

He looks at you, looks back at me, and then he motions with his hand back to Glenn

as if,

who's this?

Right.

But then he says,

oh, is that your?

Is that your?

And what he was going to say, which was very apparent to both of us, what he meant was, is that your child?

This man at Target thought, and I did have overalls.

I did look, I don't know.

Anyway, he thought

was Abby's child.

Yeah.

And so I try to put this guy out of his misery because I knew it was going to end badly for him.

And he kept doing this waving motion with his hands.

Is that your, is that your.

And he did not mean wife, just saying it was very obvious.

And I go, that's my wife.

And he was like, oh, oh.

And then he started to kind of, oh, well, oh, oh.

And right at that point, the receipt comes right out and he hands me the receipt and I said, I hope you have a good day.

Yeah.

And like, there was no malice.

There was no, for sure he,

his mind couldn't compute that we would be married.

So it went to child, but he was a sweetheart.

Lovely.

No,

pod squad, if you knew, what's the first thing I did?

Before we were out of Target, I was texting the family chain saying, you all,

the Target man just thought I was Abby's child.

Like Craig was laughing so hard.

He's like, what did you say?

I said, I love you.

That is what I said to that man.

I love you.

And then I said, if I had a nickel for every time somebody thought I was Abby's child, I would have five cents.

Oh, you guys.

Okay, let's end this very strange but episode that I loved, babe.

I love this conversation.

Yeah.

Let's hear from a pod squatter of the week.

Hi, my name is Abby, and I live in Minnesota.

And when I just heard Abby talk about how she moved behind the bowl in your daughter's game,

it memory instantly came back to me where I was playing hockey when I was like 10 years old and it was overtime.

And I split the defense and I scored top shelf.

And I remember just looking up above the net and seeing my dad there.

And all he did was just nod once and give me a grin.

And I will never forget that moment.

And now I'm wondering

how often my dad moved to that goal net just like Abby did and wondering if he knew what he was doing because I always thought he was trying to get away from the caddy mom.

But now I'm thinking,

holy crap, I was gravitating towards him and we had this moment of just like pure joy and proudness.

And oh, I can relate so much.

Thanks for sharing that.

Yeah.

That makes me emotional.

I don't think,

I don't know if I mentioned this, but I do.

Can you tell the story though, so that everyone who didn't listen to that episode knows?

Yeah.

Okay.

So the episode that I'm talking about is episode 289, the sports, the kind of embarrassing psychology of winning and losing.

Check it out.

So oftentimes during Amma's game,

her soccer games, I

basically,

if it's just kind of like a stale period of time throughout the game, I will get up and move my seat for a few reasons.

One, because as an athlete, I remember

how conscious I was of where my mom was

and

that being

kind of a stability, a stabling force, and also a security blanket.

And

I think during Amazon games, I get an intuition is really what I get.

And I believe kind of what you just said, that if I move closer to the goal, I believe that my energy that moves closer to the goal that we're trying to score on

will help

Amma and her team score a goal.

Now, I know how weird that sounds.

I don't think it's weird.

I just think that there's more to sports than just like tactics and technique and physicality.

I think that energy plays a big role.

And so, yeah, that's kind of what I've done.

And sometimes it doesn't work, P.S.

Of course.

But when you think about, first of all, the beauty of Abby revisiting those memories and realizing that her dad was there because he knew that she would come towards him like a magnet energetically is so beautiful.

Like it makes me get the chills when I think about your dad.

Actually, when I think about you remembering that, Abby, and like seeing your dad's little smile and realizing what was behind it is so beautiful.

But it's also the most beautiful metaphor for parenting.

Yep.

There are parents who just stand on the sideline and scream at their children to run towards the goal.

Just tell them what to do.

And there are parents who move and go where they want their kids to go.

Because our kids

will go where we are.

And so.

The parenting approach of stopping telling them what to do all the time

and instead just being who we want them to be, just calmly going where we want them to go, knowing that they will end up where we are and who we are and what we model.

Well, they will end up where they should be and they will end up who they should be.

I don't believe that any of my movement is to tell Emma that I'm the magnet here.

And if you just follow me over here, then you will become me.

I want her to learn the lessons of individuating individuating and also the lessons of deeply trusting herself and her own intuition.

And yes, energetically, I'm like hoping to pull her along, but not to become me or to be next to me, but to become herself and to prove to herself over and over again that she's got herself.

Because the parents who are standing on the sidelines yelling, come on, go, go.

That has, unfortunately, its place in sport.

But the parent who's silent on the sidelines, who might move their body so that their kids can energetically

become themselves,

it's like,

I don't know how to say this, but I think it's an important element in watching our kids play sports.

We want our kids to play sports so that they can figure out who they are.

Yeah.

And when somebody's just screaming at them incessantly, they're not discovering their inner voice no they're scared of yours no i mean if you are screaming it just needs to be positive like good job i see you how about good idea or good hustle those are the two i alternate because

or good effort somebody's already oh i don't say effort that feels too sportsy for me but

i feel like someone's always hustling so if you yell good hustle could always be true to any team could be to anybody it's just a general support of what is happening yeah in the sports field yeah good idea.

I'm not even actually sure what that means, but I think it's a nice thing to yell.

It means that you tried to do something that might not have worked out, but the idea itself was great.

But then do you think that's not a thing we should yell at them?

Because then does that just show that whatever they tried didn't work?

Depends on your kid.

Right.

Emma does not like good idea.

No.

Kish liked it because especially too, based on the position in soccer, a lot of central midfielders will have to try new things,

play balls into passing channels that are tight, that get closed down, that get picked off.

And if you just say, oh,

bad,

no,

that's not good because you're now training that player to not pass and try that ball again.

So are you seeing their thinking?

It's like when I was teaching, when I was teaching and somebody would do a long, long division pro, I never was like, this is right or wrong.

That's right.

Because you don't always end up with the right thing.

But if you're showing your work and I can see that you get the process, that you just mixed up a little number at the end.

That's right.

But I can see you're thinking that you are truly starting to understand division.

That's right.

You should get almost all the points.

That's how I felt as a teacher.

That's right.

And as Amma progresses throughout her life, I think that what she will understand is a good idea is a real compliment.

Yes, because it means good soccer thinking.

I can see you're developing.

Yes.

And it also means keep trying.

Yeah, do that again.

We would rather you keep trying that and not get a goal than stop trying.

It's an exercise.

Yeah, it's an exercise in failure.

Yes.

I say brava to both Abbies, you and to this Abby.

Pod squad, I had so much fun just doing this with you today.

I missed sister, but I feel like it was great.

I loved it.

I actually feel like we

don't go into the depth.

I mean, we have, but we haven't haven't gone into the depths of our marriage

about some of this stuff.

And it's helpful.

It makes me feel like we're making progress, babe.

And look, I do think we've got a long way to go

with the jealousy piece and other things.

However, I actually really appreciate talking about this stuff with you

in this forum.

It might help if sister were here.

I don't know.

Maybe not.

Maybe sister can listen to this and display some facts and fact check us.

I'm feelings checking us.

Sister's always fact-checking us.

Pod squad, we love you.

We want to hear your thoughts about jealousy.

Actually, I think it's a fascinating topic.

I could talk about it all day.

So, I did too.

If you all have thoughts after this, which I know you always do, call them in.

If you can, keep your voicemails less than a minute just because it becomes impossible for us to use.

And again, it's 747-200-5307.

747-200-5307.

I really, really

love you.

I really love you.

And I really, really trust you.

It's like somebody handing you their very, very, very delicate, fragile China heart.

And you're like, oh, God.

But it's actually responsible.

It's like the, what's the Japanese art that when the vase breaks, they recreate it?

Yeah, it starts with the K.

Yeah.

And they put the gold in it.

Yes.

The gold, like they connect the shards together to refill.

Like, that's, that's what my heart looks like.

Well, I feel like we are each other's gold filling.

We can't make it so it was never broken.

That's right.

But we can just keep, oh my God, our producers are Lauren and Allison are right about it.

Kinsugi.

Kinsugi.

Kinsugi.

Kensugi.

Is the art of Japanese like repair of pottery?

But the way they repair it is that they don't try to minimize the cracks like most repairing of things does.

They accentuate the cracks with gold filling

which

is counterintuitive because we think you're supposed to hide the cracks and things this

illuminates the cracks and things making the cracks gold and shiny and the actual most beautiful part of the pot meaning all of our trauma

when loved well,

can actually become even more beautiful than had we never been broken.

Yeah, you lit up my cracks with gold.

Which could be taken out of context in so many ways.

And with that,

we love you, Pod Squad.

See you next time.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow.

This is the most important thing for the pod.

While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

We appreciate you very much.

We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and this show is produced by Lauren Lograso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.

I give you Tish Milton and Brandy Carlisle.

I walked through fire, I came out

the other side.

I chased desire,

I made sure

I got what's mine

and I continue

to believe

that I'm the one for me.

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks our map A final destination

we lack

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been

And to be loved, we need to be known

We'll finally find our

back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a heart pain.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem.

Sometimes things fall apart.

And I continue to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took some time,

but I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

A final destination

at lack.

We stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do a hard thing.

We're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay with that.

We've stopped asking directions

in some places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find

our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do hard things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do

hard

things.