How to Survive Your 20s, Abby On Bonus Parenting & IS Anyone TRULY Toxic?

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Speaker 2 Well, hello friends. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Speaker 2 How are you two?

Speaker 3 I'm good.

Speaker 2 That was unconvincing.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 How are you, Sissy?

Speaker 3 I am,

Speaker 3 I think actually good.

Speaker 3 I mean, I don't know that I am good. I think things are going fine.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 I am excited because I have something that I want to talk about.

Speaker 2 Okay, wonderful. Since no one asked me how I am, I'll just tell you that

Speaker 2 I saw this meme the other day

Speaker 2 and it was this guinea pig driving a plastic pink convertible and it just said, the horrors persist, but so do I. And that is my new answer.
When someone says, how are you?

Speaker 2 I think that's a good answer. The horrors persist, but so do I.

Speaker 3 Yes. Also,

Speaker 2 one other idea. is that I saw on another meme that there is a word, no, a saying in Norway, when people say, How are you? You say

Speaker 2 standing and not crying.

Speaker 2 I actually was just, as I said that, I'm like, actually, that wouldn't work for me.

Speaker 3 I'm rarely standing and always crying and occasionally crying.

Speaker 3 Okay, wait, anyway. Wait, wait, we have to explain the other meme that you and Emma loved so much at dinner last night.
Oh my gosh. Okay.

Speaker 2 Pod squad, I'm just telling you that if we were on a group text with the whole pod squad,

Speaker 2 you would love what I sent.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 3 collect

Speaker 2 memes throughout the day that make me happy. Okay, there's this meme, and it has a picture of an island, and it's labeled island.

Speaker 2 And then there's the water next to the island, and it says is not land. Okay, so

Speaker 3 island? Island?

Speaker 2 Is not land.

Speaker 3 Is not land.

Speaker 3 This blew my mind.

Speaker 3 Wait, island is Island? Island. I'm writing it out to look.

Speaker 2 Island?

Speaker 2 Is not land.

Speaker 3 That's how it's spelled. I-S-L-A-N-D.

Speaker 3 I said it to everyone.

Speaker 2 I said it to Liz Gilbert.

Speaker 3 I was like, Island. Island.
Isn'tland.

Speaker 3 Oh my God. So it's like imagining the origin of that word.
It's like you're in a boat, you're going, you're days, it's weeks, it's months.

Speaker 3 And then you see something in the distance and they say, what is that? And they say, Island.

Speaker 2 And then I just need to show you one more thing. Okay, you know, my girl, Virginia Wolf, okay?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 2 Just feeling her always. All right.

Speaker 2 This is a note she sent to her friend Ethel Smith on the 10th of February, 1933.

Speaker 2 Sorry, I was so glum. I'm in a cursed mood and can't bear the human face.
So put off coming here, I advise you, as long as possible. Perhaps by the end of the week, I shall be thawed.
God knows.

Speaker 2 Virginia Wolf.

Speaker 2 Now that is how you answer a text that says, can I come over?

Speaker 3 I feel like we need a whole episode of like how to say no, how to decline things,

Speaker 3 how to just say it in a real way. And I feel like maybe we need to lead with that Virginia Wolf thing.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 3 It's so much better than coming up with some shitty excuse like, I'm so busy. I can't stand the human form.
That's a better way of doing it.

Speaker 2 Human form. I can't bear the human face.
I'm in a cursed mood.

Speaker 3 I feel like you two have just made me happier. Oh.

Speaker 3 Your joy has just made me a happier person. So thank you.

Speaker 3 Well, that's good because I want to talk about plane crashes.

Speaker 2 Oh, shit. Okay.

Speaker 3 Go ahead. Okay.
I mean, it happens to be about plane crashes, but it's really, I think, about how to not crash your plane. and your relationship and your family and probably your business too.

Speaker 2 Okay. So it's metaphorical, I'm hoping.

Speaker 3 Yeah, because if not, I literally just know you have to sit through the literal to get to the metaphorical because it's really something. So, I've been reading Malcolm Gladwell's book, Outliers,

Speaker 3 and there's this part in it where he talks about the anomaly of commercial airline crashes. And let me just tell you, real quick, you'll be able to get through it, Glenn.
It's not that bad.

Speaker 3 Okay, because I already don't like this.

Speaker 2 I'd rather be on an Island. And if it's going to crash, let's hope it crashes on an Island and not an Island.

Speaker 3 And not an is not land.

Speaker 3 Okay,

Speaker 3 listen. So in commercial airlines, they always have in the cockpit a pilot and a first officer, and they split the duties equally.
They're both qualified to do the plane, et cetera, et cetera. Okay.

Speaker 3 But they found out that crashes are much more likely to happen when

Speaker 3 the pilot

Speaker 3 not the first officer is flying the plane and much less likely to happen when the first officer is flying the plane.

Speaker 3 This means that flights are significantly safer if the least experienced person is operating the plane.

Speaker 3 Not the pilot, but the first officer.

Speaker 3 This is weird, right? Very weird. Okay, the reason.

Speaker 3 is because when they went back and listened to all the audio on all of these crashes, which used to be much more prevalent than it is now.

Speaker 3 The reason is because the less experienced, lower-ranking person

Speaker 3 is

Speaker 3 much less likely than the higher-ranking person to feel empowered to say what they observe and what they notice directly. So they listen to these black boxes and they hear over and over about how

Speaker 3 if the co-pilot is watching the pilot, the the higher-ranking pilot operate the plane and they see errors and they see problems and they see looming crises, they don't feel like they can say them.

Speaker 3 So they're just as likely to see the problems.

Speaker 3 So like, it's not the more experienced pilot sees the problems and tells the co-pilot to do it. They both see them, but it is their method of communicating them that is dramatically different.

Speaker 3 So whereas the pilots who were not operating the plane would state clearly clearly exactly what they saw. So, they'd be saying things like, too much ice, de-ice the plane before you take off.

Speaker 3 Direct, I see it, I'm naming it, I'm telling you what to do. The first officer would say things like,

Speaker 3 Looks like more ice than usual.

Speaker 3 Looks like, so, in the stress of those moments, in with everything going on, it was

Speaker 3 the culture of inability to say what you see

Speaker 3 to someone who is supposed to have a greater rank than you. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And that fear of naming that and the fear of offending. Wow.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 Wow. So this is now like rocking my world.

Speaker 3 And they now have,

Speaker 3 because this was so researched, now every major airline has this like standard procedures that they require junior officers to go through whenever they see a problem.

Speaker 3 So, it isn't up to like your comfort level. It isn't up to what, if you think that guy's going to be mad, if you think whatever.
So, they have to say their first level is captain, I'm concerned about.

Speaker 3 If they don't respond, it's captain, I'm uncomfortable with.

Speaker 3 Then it's captain, I believe the situation is unsafe. And then they are required to take over the plane if they escalate it through all of that and it doesn't work.

Speaker 3 And this protocol of being able to say what you see and name the problems that you see

Speaker 3 is what many experts believe more than any of the technological advances, what has contributed to the dramatic decline in crashes. Wow.

Speaker 3 Simple, freaking

Speaker 3 communication

Speaker 3 and ability to enter into a potentially conflict arising situation.

Speaker 3 So the person with less perceived power, having the confidence and clarity to say with authority what they see even in the midst of a power differential but it's a system that they feel safe inside yes so they're like the system is set up that they can say the things and there is a protocol and they have to yeah yes they have to it isn't up to their judgment and so this is like

Speaker 3 okay conflict avoidance is fatal, whether it is you're flying a plane or it is your family or your business culture.

Speaker 3 If folks are afraid to speak up and name the problems that they see, you will crash your plane and you will crash your family and you will crash your relationship because this is something like this happened between John and I.

Speaker 3 We were handling something with my son in a certain way and I started to be like, I don't know if this is right. I don't know.
And I was having all these second thoughts. And after like

Speaker 3 a week, I go and talk to him and I'm like, oh my God, I'm really stressed about this. I think we might be messing this up.
And he says to me, yes,

Speaker 3 I have known that for a long time. I have thought that for a long time.

Speaker 2 So stop there. That's like three quarters of the way through a flight.
The head pilot being like, damn, it feels like there's ice on these wings. And the co-pilot going, yeah, I did notice that.

Speaker 2 from the very beginning. Before we took off.
Before we took out, I was just scared to say anything.

Speaker 3 And I became so enraged. Like the level of betrayal upon hearing that, I was like, it was exactly right.
It was as if like a co-pilot was about to let me fly into the side of a mountain. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Knowing that and seeing that. But that's what it was.
That's what all of this is.

Speaker 3 It's like, if you have a culture where you feel like that person knows what they're doing, that person's going to do what they're going to do no matter what.

Speaker 3 That person is like the boss of this area life

Speaker 3 and the other person doesn't feel like they're in a position to be able to say something or even if they say something it will be responded to

Speaker 3 that's what happens

Speaker 2 it's crazy do you believe that your system inside of your family was set up in a way where like you as the pilot if he as the co-pilot in this situation had said something that you would have honored that or was the culture at that point such that

Speaker 2 you had also helped create the environment where he felt nervous to say what he saw?

Speaker 3 Yes, I think I absolutely contributed to that environment. And then I think it became a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Right.

Speaker 3 Because like the more I did it, the more it became my lane, the more I was like, no, that's not a good idea. We're going to do it this way.

Speaker 3 The more that became solidified in I am the captain of this area.

Speaker 3 You only speak up if

Speaker 3 it's very dire.

Speaker 3 That is truly how I felt. I was like, you would let us crash into a mountain without saying something.
And since then, me saying, no, I need you to say I am concerned about.

Speaker 3 I need you to say I'm uncomfortable with. I need you because I can't be flying this plane by myself.

Speaker 3 I need what you see. I can only see so much.

Speaker 3 You please see the things and say the things. It's so much better now.
But when I read that study, I was like, that's it. That's what we were, that's what was happening.

Speaker 3 But think about it, businesses where it's like the boss is about to do something really not good, but then these other people know it.

Speaker 3 If you've created a culture as a boss where the people that work for you actually can't work for you. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 Because they actually can't say the things that they need to say to prevent you from making a mistake, then you actually don't have people working for you.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Can I just say one thing, sister?

Speaker 3 I don't know how this has kind of gone in your marriage, but I think one thing that could probably be helpful for John, because it would be one thing if we were to tell this first officer, you have to say something, right?

Speaker 3 Like when all these planes were going down, but they didn't do it that way. They put in place these protocols of mechanisms that you then go to this.

Speaker 3 So maybe it would be good for you and John to create what that protocol looks like in the future as to how he can approach you. Because maybe it's working perfectly.

Speaker 3 I have no idea, but I bet that there's still some hesitancy inside of him.

Speaker 3 And so, if you guys can collectively create that one, two, three-step plan so that you're both actually flying the plane and he has to talk to you, and you have to talk to him, I think that that's probably a mechanism of crashing fewer planes.

Speaker 2 And a different leadership model.

Speaker 2 Truly, leadership, the best leadership is creating cultures of dissent.

Speaker 2 The best leadership is creating spaces where not that everyone's deferring,

Speaker 2 but that everyone feels completely empowered to constantly say what they see, even if it's going to rock the boat, because that's how you don't run into an iceberg.

Speaker 3 Well, the other way of saying that too is that everyone's equally responsible. Like I am responsible for the outcomes.

Speaker 3 I am not just responsible for doing what I'm told to do.

Speaker 3 If everyone in a culture, whether it's a business or a family or whatever, abdicates that responsibility and just thinks they're just supposed to quote unquote get their job done and do what the boss says, that is a very different thing than I'm responsible for the outcomes in this business, in this family, and whatever.

Speaker 3 And so I have to say whatever needs to be said to get the outcome that I believe is best.

Speaker 3 That's good.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that is true. And I think what Abby's saying is so important about creating the systems because there still is in every situation some sort of power imbalance.

Speaker 2 So you can feel as responsible as you want.

Speaker 2 But if you know that the culture of your family or your marriage or your friend group or your company is that if you say the thing, you're going to be shamed or you're going to be dismissed or you're going to be punished or you're going to be whatever.

Speaker 2 then you are also responsible for your own well-being inside of that system. So you're not going to feel as

Speaker 2 connected to the outcome responsibility.

Speaker 2 So I don't know. I think that's a way of getting the actual outcome to be the North Star as opposed to anybody's ego.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Well, I think with us, it just started with, I don't want to be doing this by myself. I don't want to be the only pilot on this thing.
Like I'm scared. Yep.

Speaker 3 Fucking it up. I don't see what I don't see.
You see things that I don't see. I need you in here a lot.

Speaker 3 And that was like news to him because I had just been flying and flying and flying it, you know? But I like the protocol.

Speaker 2 Are you always the pilot in parenting with him as the co-pilot? Because how do you figure that out too?

Speaker 3 In these structures, you don't actually need a pilot and co-pilot. Like you could have.

Speaker 3 two equal pilots that are equally responsible for identifying

Speaker 3 the problems when they are not behind the wheel.

Speaker 3 It's not predicated on that. And I think it just depends on the lane.
If it's something that John has a lot of similarities with the kids on, he will go in because he has a lived experience that

Speaker 3 he just has more insight into it than I do. And he'll take the lead on that.
And

Speaker 3 sports stuff a lot, things like that. But I like the model of what they use in the airlines.
The first one is I'm concerned about.

Speaker 3 It's never you're doing it wrong. Like, first is I'm concerned about, second, is I'm uncomfortable with.

Speaker 3 Third is, I believe the situation is unsafe. And then you take over, you take the reins.
And so, if you feel like something's happening in your family, you're concerned about and you're unheard.

Speaker 3 If you say you're uncomfortable with it and you're unheard, if you think it is unsafe, it is not a good environment for your kids or your family or whatever,

Speaker 3 then you just have to jump in and like

Speaker 3 save us from a poor decision. Yeah, that's good.
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Speaker 2 All right, you want to hear from some pot spotters?

Speaker 3 I do.

Speaker 2 Let's hear from sweet Emma.

Speaker 4 Hi, Glenn and Avian's sister. I'm Emma.
She, her.

Speaker 4 I'm 21. I'm a senior in college.
And my question is, number one, I love the pod. This has been an absolute lifeline.

Speaker 4 It's what me and my mom talk about and have the best conversations over and me and my friends. But my question for you guys is,

Speaker 4 how the fuck do you survive your 20s? Everyone tries to make it sound like this is supposed supposed to be the most carefree and joyous times of my life, but I'm just really scared.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 me and my friends sometimes remind ourselves, we're like, it's okay, Glennon was still an alcoholic right now. Like, do you have time?

Speaker 4 But I would love, love, love.

Speaker 4 You guys all were on such different paths during this time in your life, and I would love to hear about how you made it through and what you'd want to tell your 20-year-old self.

Speaker 4 And if you guys could do that on an episode, I would really appreciate you listening to that.

Speaker 4 And I think so would so many of of your younger listeners who are just trying to figure this out and love the warm, mothering energy of you guys. So, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Bye.

Speaker 4 I love you guys.

Speaker 2 Emma, I just want you to know before we get started answering your sweet question that the way that this question of yours was transcribed to me as I'm reading it right now, it says,

Speaker 2 Hi, Glenn and Abby and sister. I'm Emma.
I'm 21. I'm a senior in college, and my question's this: Number one, I love the pot.
This has been an absolute lifeline.

Speaker 2 So I thought that your whole question was about pot

Speaker 2 and how it's been a lifeline. And maybe is that okay in your 20s? And I mean, Glennon was an alcoholic.
So what's so wrong with the pot?

Speaker 2 And to that, before we get started answering you sincerely, I want you to know that I think it's just fine, Emma. if the pot is a lifeline for you in your 20s.
We do what we have to do in our 20s.

Speaker 2 Every time I go visit my kids' school or I'm on a college campus, which we're doing a lot more now for what's coming with our kids,

Speaker 2 all I do is look at 20 year olds and just feel so tired for them. That's how I feel.
I tell Abby this all the time. I look at them and I think, I feel so tired for you because it's so

Speaker 2 stressful. And the fact that anyone in their right mind would say to a 20-year-old, this is supposed to be the best time of your life.

Speaker 3 What a horrible, horrible thing to say.

Speaker 3 That is awful.

Speaker 2 No, thank you.

Speaker 2 The 20s.

Speaker 2 Also, Emma, I think one thing you might be doing that you don't have to be doing is thinking. Like the 20s aren't for worrying or like self-analyzing.

Speaker 2 The 20s are for just like making all the mistakes.

Speaker 2 so that you can later have something upon which to reflect, right?

Speaker 2 What What do you think, you guys, about sweet Emma?

Speaker 3 I am,

Speaker 3 she used the word carefree. I'm supposed to be carefree.
And I think that that is a word that people use. And I honestly, I'd like to know

Speaker 3 whether anyone, I have never been carefree a day in my life. Is that a thing that.

Speaker 2 Why would anyone want to be free of caring?

Speaker 3 I actually don't understand that word. I think that when people say,

Speaker 3 when people who are not 20

Speaker 3 are saying, looking back and saying,

Speaker 3 oh, my 20s were so carefree. I think what they are signaling is their nostalgia for a time when they could have been more self-centered, but probably weren't.

Speaker 3 You know, it's like a retroactive, I could have been that, but I don't think that anyone actually ever was.

Speaker 3 I think we've all just missed that part of our lives. And we're looking back and we're like, don't do what we did,

Speaker 3 which you can't do anyway.

Speaker 3 No one is carefree. I'll just speak for myself.
Never, not at the height of my responsibility or the lowest point of my responsibility was ever carefree. Yeah.
But I do think Emma

Speaker 3 could.

Speaker 3 And if I'm looking back, what I would have told myself in my 20s was

Speaker 3 to

Speaker 3 cultivate a life that is self-centered.

Speaker 3 And I think it's absolutely insane that self-centered is a derogatory term. I mean, on what else should we be centered? Like, it's, it's crazy, but it is the one time of your life, maybe before you

Speaker 3 have these other

Speaker 3 things that you opt into that make you mutually dependent,

Speaker 3 where you really can be self-centered. You can figure out what do I like and what do I not like? What brings me joy? What does it? What kills my life force? What invigorates my life force?

Speaker 3 And it doesn't mean things only for yourself. If you're doing things with your friends, should feel self-centered.
Yeah. Because it should be building you up and making you feel good.

Speaker 3 If it doesn't feel self-centered, then you need to look at those relationships.

Speaker 3 But it's just, I would have made my life self-centered during that time because at other times you have less opportunity to do that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you would have found like who the I is before the I makes all these commitments to other people. I sent this text, I'm going to find it right now, to my friend Alex yesterday.

Speaker 2 Alex texted and she said, I want to see you. I can come to you tomorrow or you can come to me if you need a change of scenery.

Speaker 2 She said, also, if you'd like a change of scenery, you're welcome to come here. I said, I'd actually really, really like a change of scenery, but I had kids before I thought life through well.

Speaker 2 So I have to take it.

Speaker 2 I mean, honestly, I was only half kidding about that. It's like, I'm so glad.
Everybody knows I'm so glad that they're here. Great.

Speaker 2 But holy shit, maybe I should have thought a few things through.

Speaker 3 Just take it slow.

Speaker 2 Like, I just feel like maybe no one should be allowed to get married married till they're after 40.

Speaker 2 Everyone should only be allowed to have children when they're 50.

Speaker 2 Just Emma, Emma. I have to take your time.

Speaker 3 I just have something to say.

Speaker 3 I think it is like the hardest to be 21 is such a weird and hard age because you're still in some ways attached to your family and you need them for maybe it's financial support or emotional support.

Speaker 3 I mean, the fact that you're listening to this podcast tells me something about you, Emma, that you are curious to go and you're capable of going into the hard and thinking about the hard.

Speaker 3 One thing I think that we can get into a better habit of, especially as older, 40, 50 year old women who have children, is we don't have to tell our kids that the 20s and 30s are the hardest times of our life

Speaker 3 just because they were the hardest times of our lives, just because we ran into difficult times during that time for us.

Speaker 3 It might be totally different for you, Emma. And having the mentality of accepting difficulty when it comes is beautiful.
But also in your 20s, I think it's really important that you aren't jaded yet.

Speaker 3 When you get older, you experience difficulties. And when they come and they show up, you will let that in and you will learn from those moments what you need to learn.
But you are new.

Speaker 3 Like you're like a fresh, like new horse that just stood up for the first time. And you're like trying to figure out the world.

Speaker 3 And it is not easy to figure out, but you don't have to figure it all out. No.
In your 20s. Or, cause guess what? I am still learning in my 40s what is happening here.
And the truth is nobody knows.

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 3 Nobody knows what's happening. So try to find the most amount of joy you can.

Speaker 2 Yes, that's good.

Speaker 3 That is good. Nobody knows what they're doing ever.
Yeah, what sister said is so true. I think it's so important that like, we get so focused on getting on the rat wheel.
The rat wheel.

Speaker 3 The hamster wheel. The rat race.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.
Sorry. The hamster wheel.

Speaker 2 The hamster race, I like.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I don't know. It's like you're just in this beautiful time where you can opt not to do that right now.
Because you don't have an expectation of a way you want to actually live because you have it.

Speaker 3 You've been stuck in a dorm for what, two, three, four years. Like get as many roommates as you possibly can.
I truly believe this.

Speaker 3 Get as many roommates as you possibly can.

Speaker 3 Live in a very small apartment, spend the least amount of money and work hard at figuring out what you like about yourself and about what you like about life and what you want to spend your time doing.

Speaker 3 Don't be so obsessed with figuring out a career path. I think it's fucking insane that we do this to our college students.

Speaker 3 Like, you need to have your life mission figured out by 21, 22. No, the world is so different now than it was 40 years ago.

Speaker 3 You get to decide and you get to change your mind more than you ever could before. So I don't know.

Speaker 3 I believe that you can choose to walk into every new decade of your life with optimism and curiosity rather than like dread.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
And I think if I could add something, it would be,

Speaker 2 I don't think that each decade there's anything that you're supposed to be doing.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 2 I think that the only thing that has maybe ruined some of my experiences of life is not the mistakes. It's not the tragedies even.
It's not the losses.

Speaker 2 It's the thinking that I should be doing something else. It's thinking that

Speaker 2 I'm supposed to be this or that or that.

Speaker 2 It's what we come back to over and over again in this pod, which is that the thing that ruins our experiences is the picture in our head of how things are supposed to be.

Speaker 2 This constant gap between what I'm experiencing right now and this idea of what it's supposed to be. So, Emma, I think the only thing

Speaker 2 that will mess up your 20s is no decision you make, no path you take or don't, but the idea that you're supposed to be somewhere else. Yeah.

Speaker 2 it you're what what's supposed to happen to you emma it's like that hafiz line which i will leave you with

Speaker 3 it's

Speaker 2 this place where you are

Speaker 2 god circled it on a map for you like right now where you are what you're doing if you're doing nothing if you're sitting on a couch and have nothing it's that emma where you are right now is not a mistake.

Speaker 2 It's where you are meant to be. And then where you are tomorrow will be that, and where you are in your 30s will be that, and where you are in your 40s will be that.

Speaker 2 Follow love, follow your curiosity, follow

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 knowing that leads you to the next right thing, and then just know that where you are is exactly where you're supposed to be, and there is no better life, there is just your life, Emma.

Speaker 3 So good.

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Speaker 2 All right, let's hear from Dominique.

Speaker 5 Hi, Gwennen, sister, and Abby. My name is Dominique.
This question is mostly for Abby. I've recently transitioned into a family with a 10-year-old and a 17-year-old, and I don't have any kids.

Speaker 5 And it's been so amazing and wonderful, but also really vulnerable and kind of scary. I'm finding myself a little nervous about leading and correcting the kids because I'm afraid of being mean.
And,

Speaker 5 you know, you are hardwired to have this love for your parents no matter what, but it's not there for a bonus parent.

Speaker 5 So I'm a little anxious about it and just losing their love, even if I guide them in the most gentle way I can.

Speaker 5 I'm also finding myself a bit jealous about hearing about their milestones growing up and the things I miss out on because I love them so much.

Speaker 5 And I don't want to just hear about the challenges, but also the joys too. So it's not all negative.

Speaker 5 I listen to you guys all the time and I feel like we're friends, even though you guys don't know me thank you so much for everything and i hope you guys have a beautiful day bye aww dominique

Speaker 3 i love this because so much of what you're feeling and the way you've described it is exactly how i felt when i walked into glennin's family

Speaker 3 now my family i remember getting that jolt, that pang in my stomach. And still to this day, this doesn't go away.

Speaker 3 Whenever they would talk about times when they were babies, I always ask what their birthdays were like, what happened at the hospital.

Speaker 3 And it always makes me feel like this kind of FOMO, sorrow, that I wasn't there to experience it. What I would say is early days, I honestly, I think I tried to buy their love at first.

Speaker 3 I mean, we were going through a Starbucks. drive-through and the kids pulling up to the drive-thru.
I said, what do you guys want? And they said, I want want a cake pop and i said oh okay

Speaker 3 great and so i turned to order and i said i would like a cake pop and the person on the other end said how many and i just said all of them

Speaker 2 and glennon looks at me she's like no like what do you know we don't do that like we don't even do cake pops i was like this is but well not ballsy julie fadi says boobsy

Speaker 2 this is boobsy of them to even be asking this they know we are in a transition time to be even asking for a cake pop and then abby says, all of them.

Speaker 3 But I learned then that you can't really buy love.

Speaker 3 And it's just time. It really does take time for them to understand that you aren't going anywhere, that you are capable of handling all of what they throw at you.

Speaker 3 Because sometimes it's not going to all be, you know, perfect and beautiful. Sometimes it's going to be hard.
Sometimes they're going to be mad at you. And you still have to carry and hold their love.

Speaker 3 And then eventually,

Speaker 3 what happens is that they realize that you are choosing to love them.

Speaker 3 Tish said to us one time, I mean, what was that question?

Speaker 2 We were playing a card game that had questions on it. And the question said, it was Tish and the rest of us.
And the question said, who is the person that's taught you most about love?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And oh, God, it makes me cry every time I think about it.

Speaker 3 Here she goes, you guys. Fuck.

Speaker 3 I mean, Tish goes goes into this whole story about, you know, her mom and dad, they have to love her.

Speaker 3 And I choose to love her. And it was like the most beautiful.
It was like the most touching thing ever.

Speaker 3 And then I'll leave you with this last story.

Speaker 3 Recently,

Speaker 3 and this will go back to like, just keep with it. You just got to don't.
don't leave stay because if you stay

Speaker 3 then their memories will have you in it. And so recently over the holidays, Tish was explaining some sort of memory that she had.

Speaker 3 And I mean, I almost like broke out into complete, I just almost fell apart because I was in her memories.

Speaker 3 I

Speaker 3 made it.

Speaker 3 And I know that As they get older, the memories that they probably will have been sharing all of these years from their really young memory life,

Speaker 3 that might fade away a little bit.

Speaker 3 But I just felt, I mean,

Speaker 3 memories are so much of what we have in the experience of our people. We're not spending 24 hours in a day with every person in our life, especially our kids.
And then they grow up and they leave.

Speaker 3 But for Tish to like,

Speaker 3 explain this time of her life and to also have me have been there. And then Abby said this, or I don't even remember the exact story.
Do you remember it?

Speaker 3 We have great memories. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 But I just like, I turned to Glenn and

Speaker 3 I had tears in my eyes. And I was just like, I'm in her memory bank now.
I'm a part of

Speaker 3 her past.

Speaker 3 So, Dominique, I don't have an answer to the hardship and also the beauty that you are entering in and you are choosing to be a part of. But I do think that one day

Speaker 3 the 10-year-old and the 17-year-old,

Speaker 3 what they will, especially at their age, what they will know is that you are there.

Speaker 3 You are a presence.

Speaker 3 And eventually that presence

Speaker 3 is a part of them.

Speaker 3 And the presence is a part of their memory. And I don't know, maybe those few stories could offer some sort of

Speaker 3 something.

Speaker 3 It's a beautiful bit. That's it.
Sorry.

Speaker 2 Don't ever be sorry.

Speaker 3 I just can't not cry when I think about it.

Speaker 3 Because you're part of somebody's memory.

Speaker 3 Do you have any idea how important that is? Like, I literally never thought about it till this moment. I know, because like both of your children that you birthed,

Speaker 3 you are the solar system of their memory.

Speaker 3 You were the first people they touched.

Speaker 3 And to have,

Speaker 3 it's like the greatest gift is to be a part of somebody's memory.

Speaker 3 It's like the permanent record. Yes.
It's like the permanent record. Yes.
And like, especially for somebody who joins into a family, there's a huge gap.

Speaker 3 And it takes so much time. And it's so hard.

Speaker 3 Like it's, It's hard to sit at the first Christmas family dinner and to hear about about all of the past Christmases because that's what you do in traditions.

Speaker 3 You talk about past Christmas and, oh, remember that one time?

Speaker 3 That is what kind of encapsulates so much of the conversation inside of families is the past.

Speaker 3 And it's hard to get to a place

Speaker 3 where you just kind of have to swallow all of the past and you not being in that record.

Speaker 3 You just have to stay long enough to become part of the record. Oh, God.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's not easy, but it's worth it because my God, when that child had me a part of her record, I just was,

Speaker 3 and I know that I am.

Speaker 3 Before this, I knew that I was a part of their record, but the first time she said it out loud, I was like, oh, I'm in there.

Speaker 3 I'm in.

Speaker 3 It reminds me of that Walt Whitman quote.

Speaker 3 I have it on a sign in my house and it says, We were together. I forget the rest.
Yes.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 2 And, you know,

Speaker 3 those are real tears.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Don't be annoyed with yourself.

Speaker 2 That's amazing. I'm not.
I'm annoyed with you

Speaker 3 for pointing that out.

Speaker 2 Also, Dominique, I would say there's probably one or the other that's harder.

Speaker 2 Usually the 10-year-old or the 17-year-old that's harder on you.

Speaker 2 And I would just say for the back of your mind, don't count out the hard ones

Speaker 2 because the hard ones, what they are doing, is they are struggling with some idea of loyalty that they can't figure out, and those are the ones who value loyalty.

Speaker 2 And the harder it is at the beginning, the harder those guys fall.

Speaker 2 Yes, Tish was the hard one, man. She would be okay with us saying that

Speaker 2 she was hard, and it was because of her fierce idea of right and wrong, and loyalty and love,

Speaker 3 really.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 when you are like water and you just continuously and gently show up, those ones are the ones who will be yours forever eventually.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 2 that's all I wanted to add.

Speaker 3 Yep.

Speaker 2 Why don't we end with a pod squatter?

Speaker 2 Let's do it.

Speaker 4 My name is Kim. I was calling to thank you guys.
The episode that wasn't was an opportunity for me to look at a dynamic in my life in my own workplace that was not healthy for me

Speaker 4 and allowed me to move away from language of, well, that's just toxic bullshit, blah, blah, blah, to it's toxic for me. And

Speaker 4 well, I found another job and I quit that job and I only have two weeks left. I got to get away from a boss that was not nice.

Speaker 4 And this job that I'm about to start is actually, I think, a better fit for me.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 gosh, it feels like you guys have just been with me all along the way. So I just want to say thank you.
And I love you.

Speaker 4 Oh, God. All right.
Bye.

Speaker 3 Thank you.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Oh, God.

Speaker 2 I feel that so much.

Speaker 3 Oh, God. Here I go again.

Speaker 3 Here I go again on my own.

Speaker 3 She is going on her own.

Speaker 3 I love that. She said, I moved from language that's just toxic bullshit, blah, blah, blah, to

Speaker 3 that's toxic for me. Oh, I love that.
That's so good because it's almost like we were talking about this in the Dr. Ford episode, like just because something

Speaker 3 is

Speaker 3 commonplace or normal

Speaker 3 doesn't mean it's okay.

Speaker 3 And there's so much toxic bullshit everywhere that it feels almost

Speaker 3 strange or audacious to do anything with it other than just to be like oh that's the same bullshit everywhere blah blah blah but to say like no it doesn't matter that that's normal or y'all think it's normal or it doesn't matter if i'm even odd for thinking that that is damaging but like that is toxic for me and that's all i need to know like that is damaging for me i don't No, thank you to that.

Speaker 2 And it's taking responsibility is what I love about it. Like we we were just talking about this the other night.
I was like, I need different language. Everybody calls everybody toxic now.

Speaker 2 Like that person's toxic, that person's toxic. And like, sure, I'm sure that's true.
But also,

Speaker 2 first of all, it's a very sweeping, we don't know what the hell that means most of the time, right?

Speaker 2 And also, it feels so kind of aggressive to

Speaker 2 label and dismiss an entire human being as one thing.

Speaker 2 For me, it's really important to get away from that. What the hell do I know? I don't want to say a person is toxic.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 2 I know that I want to have complete self-determination about

Speaker 2 what I experience as toxic.

Speaker 2 So it's not like you're toxic, I'm not.

Speaker 2 It's like there's some kind of chemical, like if toxicity is like a chemical, there's some kind of chemical reaction between the two of us right now

Speaker 2 that feels toxic. So I have to go.
It's likely not all you.

Speaker 2 It's not all me. There's just some kind of reaction between us that isn't feeding me.
It's not healthy for me right now. It doesn't make me feel free.

Speaker 2 It doesn't make me feel big and safe and capable, or whatever you need to feel. So it's a double thing.

Speaker 2 It's not dismissing another person as completely toxic and saying it's all you, but it is claiming the right, the power to label a a situation as toxic and saying, I'm out.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 And to see your role in it. It's like if everything is puzzle pieces, it's like, my little puzzle piece doesn't work with your little puzzle piece.
Exactly.

Speaker 3 And it's more honest, truly, because to everyone else in that company or to have to be fine.

Speaker 3 They might be like, I'm fine.

Speaker 2 And then you lose the desire afterwards to constantly be proving that that other person's toxic.

Speaker 3 To justify your decision.

Speaker 2 Yes, you go

Speaker 2 with the whole thing. I do it all the time.
Like every time I make a decision about a person or a situation, I can't just accept that I'm allowed to do that.

Speaker 2 So I have to like canvass the neighborhood and make sure everybody agrees with my decision by presenting the facts about that person. And instead, it's like, oh, no, guess what? We're grown-ups.

Speaker 2 We get to decide situationally. Maybe it's not you.
Maybe it's not me. Maybe it's us.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's good. So, Kim, thank you for helping us with that.
You can do hard

Speaker 3 Oh, God.

Speaker 3 Good luck.

Speaker 3 Oh, God.

Speaker 3 So exciting. We are still with you.
Let us know how the new job goes. That's so exciting.

Speaker 2 That's right. And we're going to do these.
We just love talking to you guys so much. You're so brilliant and wonderful.
And we love hearing from you. So, we will do some more QA's coming up.

Speaker 2 And in the meantime,

Speaker 2 Emma, Kim, Dominique, we love you, Pod Squad. We love you.
Go forth and do hard things softly. Easy.

Speaker 2 Bye.

Speaker 2 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us.

Speaker 2 If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things, first, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Speaker 2 Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 2 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

Speaker 2 This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

Speaker 2 We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wombach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. Also, by Allison Schott and Dina Cabana.