Inside an Internal Family Systems (IFS) Therapy Session with Glennon & Richard C. Schwartz

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Speaker 1 That means you finally have one source of truth, real visibility, real control, and the power to make smarter decisions faster.

Speaker 1 With real-time data and forecasting, you're not just reacting to what already happened, you're planning for what's next.

Speaker 1 And whether your company is bringing in a few million or hundreds of millions, NetSuite scales with you.

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Speaker 2 Hi, everybody. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Speaker 2 In thinking about this episode, I want to say this. This episode is for anyone who thinks of themselves as a relatively intelligent person,

Speaker 2 but has things that they do in their life that they don't understand why they do them.

Speaker 1 I.e., every single one of us listening.

Speaker 2 Well, I don't know. Maybe some people understand themselves completely, but what I will say is I am a person who understood most of myself, but had a self-sabotaging, many self-sabotaging actions.

Speaker 2 So I'm talking about eating disorder stuff right now, but I know a lot of people who have parts of themselves that

Speaker 2 sabotage themselves, like shut down in relationships, like lash out. I mean, there's a million things that people do.
And at the end of the day, they say, why do I I do that? And how do I stop?

Speaker 2 And the person who's here today has helped me more than anyone else

Speaker 2 start to understand

Speaker 2 why I do the things I do

Speaker 2 that are harmful.

Speaker 2 Actually, that's it. That's as far as I've gotten.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 2 But that in itself has been a revolution. So

Speaker 2 Richard C. Schwartz, PhD, is the creator of Internal Family Systems, a freaking celebrity for our pod squatters.
Yes.

Speaker 2 A highly effective evidence-based therapeutic model that depathologizes the multi-part personality. His IFS Institute offers training for professionals and the general public.

Speaker 2 He is currently on the faculty of Harvard Medical School and has published five books, including No Bad Parts, Healing Trauma and Restoring Wholeness with the Internal Family Systems Model.

Speaker 2 Thank you for your work and thank you for being with us today. And what should I call you, Dr.
Schwartz?

Speaker 3 No, call me Dick.

Speaker 2 Okay, thank you, Dick. It's amazing to call you that after like your,

Speaker 2 I mean, your work has informed the people that help me, my therapist. So thank you.

Speaker 3 for what you've done. Thank you.
I had no idea that you have had so much experience. And I'm very honored to be invited on this.

Speaker 3 I didn't realize what a big deal it was until my wife told me, who is a huge fan and knows all of you very intimately. So yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, it's totally changed our marriage in ways and the way that we communicate with each other. I don't know.

Speaker 1 I just think that there's this personalization that we have with all the parts of ourselves.

Speaker 1 And when you can break yourself into or at least explain yourself through these parts, it manages to cut through the hurt feelings in a way because it makes it a little bit less personal.

Speaker 3 I don't know if I'm saying that right, but it's just been so helpful for both Glennon and I.

Speaker 1 So thank you.

Speaker 3 Well, again, I'm just honored to hear this. I didn't realize.

Speaker 2 When I was thinking about how I wanted the pod squad to hear you speak first, I kept thinking about the girl in treatment who was cutting.

Speaker 2 Can you tell that story? Your work started in eating disorder recovery, right?

Speaker 3 That's right. Yeah.
Yeah. this goes back.
This is our 40-year anniversary of the development of the model. So I'm very old and it's been a long journey.
And I started out as a family therapist.

Speaker 3 I have a PhD in that and

Speaker 3 was

Speaker 3 one of those obnoxious family therapists that at the time thought we'd found the holy grail.

Speaker 3 people that mucked around in the inner world were wasting their time because we could change all that by just reorganizing families

Speaker 3 and set out to prove that and and did an outcome study with bulimia.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 so gathered together 30 bulimic kids and their families.

Speaker 3 And I found I could reorganize the families just the way the book said to.

Speaker 3 And my clients didn't realize they'd been cured because they kept binging and purging despite all this great family therapy.

Speaker 3 And so I asked why, and they started talking this language of parts, which was foreign to me at the time.

Speaker 3 And they were talking about these parts as if they had a lot of autonomy and like you said in the intro could make them do things they they didn't want to do but they didn't know why like binge and purge and so

Speaker 3 at some point i got over my oh my god these people are really sick

Speaker 3 and started listening inside myself and oh my god i've got them too

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 then i started getting really curious and had a few clients that were extremely articulate about the whole phenomenon basically taught all this to me.

Speaker 3 But at first, I was treating these parts or thinking of them the way the field still does by and large, which is the binge is an out-of-control impulse. And then there's that nasty critic inside.

Speaker 3 And it's just an internalization of your father's voice or something. And

Speaker 3 so when you think of them that way, You don't have many alternatives in terms of how to help your client relate to them other than fight with the critic, control the binge.

Speaker 3 And it wasn't until the client you mentioned, because I tried doing that, my clients were getting worse as I tried to get them to do this, but I didn't know what else to do because that's the way I was thinking of it.

Speaker 3 And then I had the client you mentioned who cut herself in addition to the bulimia.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 so At one point, I decided I wasn't going to let her out of my obsession because it was driving me crazy to have her do this on my watch

Speaker 3 without that part agreeing not to do it to her that week. And so after a couple hours of just badgering the part, it finally said, I won't cut her, okay.

Speaker 3 And I opened the door to the next session and she had a big gash down the side of her face.

Speaker 3 And I totally emotionally collapsed at that point and said, I give up. I can't beat you at this.
And the part said, you know, I don't really want to beat you.

Speaker 3 So that was the turning point in the history of this model because then I just got curious, then why do you do this to her?

Speaker 3 And it proceeded to tell me the whole history of how when

Speaker 3 she was being abused as a child,

Speaker 3 it had to step in and distract her from that. And

Speaker 3 it turned out, you know, that was a heroic story. I could actually shift and have a huge appreciation.
for how it basically saved her life.

Speaker 3 And as I did that, the part broke into tears because everyone had demonized it and tried to get rid of it. And finally, somebody was understanding it and appreciating it.

Speaker 3 And from that, I just started trying that same approach to the other clients in the study and to their eating, their binging parts, and

Speaker 3 basically found the same thing, which was just amazing. that each of them had a kind of secret history of how they got into the role they were in.

Speaker 3 They didn't like the role they were in, but they didn't think they had a choice. They still thought the client was five years old often and was in a bad situation that they needed to protect them in.

Speaker 3 And they carried what I call burdens, which are these extreme beliefs and emotions that come into you during a trauma and sort of adhere to these parts almost like a virus and drive the way they operate.

Speaker 3 So as I got that, everything changed in terms of how I approached people and how I understood all kinds of psychiatric syndromes.

Speaker 2 Can you explain IFS, the theory, the idea of it, like you're explaining it to a third grader? Okay. Just in the simplest ways, so people who have not heard of this can kind of grasp it.

Speaker 3 Yeah, actually, young kids get this. much more quickly than adults actually because they haven't been socialized away from the phenomena.

Speaker 3 But I would say, you know, you have a a part that does this, right? They'll say, yeah, I do. Then there's this one and this one, this one, too.

Speaker 3 So the basic idea is that

Speaker 3 in contrast to the way most of us think of ourselves and our minds,

Speaker 3 we're actually multiple personalities, not in the sense that we have that disorder, but in the sense that we do have these autonomous little parts, I call them, other systems call them sub-personalities or other names like that, that they are little minds inside of us.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 they are what we call thinking usually. They're just arguing or talking or trying to give us advice all the time.

Speaker 3 And it turns out that there are no bad parts. That

Speaker 3 now after 40 years of doing this, I can safely say that I've never met a part that ultimately I didn't like. And I've worked with parts that have done horrible things.

Speaker 3 And even those parts, when you get your client to be curious curious about them, will share their secret history of how they had to do what they do at some point and they got stuck in that role.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 like kids in a family, though, they start out just innocent and pure and open and

Speaker 3 eager,

Speaker 3 inner children, really.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 traumas or

Speaker 3 I don't know if a 10-year-old would know what a trauma is, but bad parenting, all the kind of things that come to you as problems in your life, force them out of their naturally valuable roles into extreme roles that can be damaging,

Speaker 3 and also sort of freeze them in time during the time of the trauma.

Speaker 3 So that if I were working with you, Glennon, and I... would say ask this critic how old it thinks you are you'll usually get a single digit.

Speaker 3 It thinks you're still 10 years old and it still has to protect you the way it did back then.

Speaker 3 And then also, as I said, they accrue these extreme beliefs and emotions that then drive them that we call burdens. So that's parts.

Speaker 3 But the big deal about IFS, the biggest discovery from my point of view, is that in addition to these parts, and when they open space inside, there's a you that has these wonderful qualities, what I call the eight Cs of what I call self-leadership, that include calm, curiosity, confidence, compassion, creativity, courage,

Speaker 3 clarity,

Speaker 3 and connectedness, that that's who you are at your essence, and that that can't be damaged. which was amazing, just amazing to stumble into.

Speaker 3 And when you can access that, that you know how to relate to these parts in a healing way and knows how to relate to other people in a healing way.

Speaker 3 And you'll begin to relate to parts and people from those HC qualities.

Speaker 3 So that's the big discovery of IFS and that it's just beneath the surface of these parts so that when they open space, it pops out spontaneously.

Speaker 3 So when I'm working with someone, I'll access that place first and then in that state, have them begin to get to know whatever part we want to work with. Ah.

Speaker 2 So that's like the self, the capital S is the,

Speaker 2 I don't know where I started thinking of it this way. Somebody suggested it, but it feels like I'm like a big conference table.

Speaker 2 And there's all these parts of me that are at the table trying to make decisions.

Speaker 2 And then there's like the wise self at the head of the table, which is my capital S self who believes in and knows and is made of the C's. Can you say them again?

Speaker 3 So calm.

Speaker 3 So at the head of the table, you're feeling pretty calm. You also have a lot of confidence relative to the parts

Speaker 3 and you're very curious about them. You're not assuming things about them.
You're open to hearing from them.

Speaker 3 And you have compassion. You have a kind of built-in.
caring for them that they can sense

Speaker 3 and you see them clearly. So when you're blended with some of these protective parts, all you see are distorted images of these parts.

Speaker 3 When you're in self, you can see this is just a little kid. It's not a critic.

Speaker 3 And so that's clarity. And then you can be much more creative in how you relate to them.
So you have creativity and

Speaker 3 you feel a connection to them, so connectedness, and you want to connect with the ones you don't feel connected to. And you have courage.
You have the courage

Speaker 3 to actually

Speaker 3 go to the places in your psyche that otherwise you'd be really scared to go to.

Speaker 3 So that's one version of the eighth seas. And we actually do have a conference table technique, just like you're describing.
Oh, no way. Okay.

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Speaker 1 One thing I love about our listeners is how industrious all of you are. The stories we hear about you guys going off on your own and starting your own ventures like we did, it's truly inspiring.

Speaker 1 It's a big part of why NetSuite came to us as a sponsor. NetSuite offers real-time data and insights for so many business owners, and by that I mean over 42,000 businesses.

Speaker 1 NetSuite offers the number one AI-powered cloud ERP. Think of it as a central nervous system for your business.

Speaker 1 Instead of juggling separate tools for accounting here, HR there, inventory somewhere else, NetSuite pulls everything into one seamless platform.

Speaker 1 That means you finally have one source of truth, real visibility, real control, and the power to make smarter decisions faster.

Speaker 1 With real-time data and forecasting, you're not just reacting to what already happened. You're planning for what's next.

Speaker 1 And whether your company is bringing in a few million or hundreds of millions, NetSuite scales with you.

Speaker 1 It helps you tackle today's challenges and chase down tomorrow's opportunities without missing a beat.

Speaker 1 Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com/slash hard things.

Speaker 1 The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/slash hard things, netsuite.com/slash hard things.

Speaker 2 So now I can think of it as: there is a me that is at the head of the table.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 I have a part. So the bulimic eating disorder, it has changed over time.
It's been binging. It's been purging.
It's been anorexic. It's been bulimic.
It's been all the things. That is a part.

Speaker 2 I have spent my whole life thinking, why am I crazy? I am always trying to figure out, am I crazy or am I sane?

Speaker 2 Am I good or am I bad?

Speaker 2 And so this has helped me figure out I'm I'm not crazy or sane, I'm not good or bad. I just have all of these.

Speaker 2 Like, I have a part

Speaker 2 that,

Speaker 2 like the little girl who was cutting or the woman who was cutting,

Speaker 2 felt like when things get stressful,

Speaker 2 I protect Glennon.

Speaker 3 But,

Speaker 2 how would you describe like what that part is trying to do to help me?

Speaker 3 Have you asked yours?

Speaker 3 Oh, this is good. Let's go.

Speaker 2 I mean, I

Speaker 2 think a little bit

Speaker 2 I have asked.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 what does it say? Sure.

Speaker 2 Shut up, Abby.

Speaker 4 It's saying shut up, Abby, mostly.

Speaker 3 Do you want Abby to leave the room? No, no, I love her.

Speaker 2 No, no, she's a good part.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 If you want to, I do a a little piece with you. Okay.
Sure. Okay, great.
Oh my God.

Speaker 1 I love this.

Speaker 3 All right. So focus on the eating disorder part and find it in your body or around your body.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 Where do you find it?

Speaker 2 I feel it in my stomach right now. I'm just going to say whatever comes to my mind because I don't know.
I think so.

Speaker 1 You're not going to like fail at this.

Speaker 3 This is not a pass-fail situation. That's exactly right.
So whatever part worries about that, maybe it can relax back.

Speaker 3 got it so as you find it in your stomach there as you notice it there

Speaker 3 how do you feel toward it planet

Speaker 2 i feel very very very warm toward it good perfect so let it know that

Speaker 3 and just see how it reacts to your warmth your compassion

Speaker 2 It just feels like warm, like a melding of colors or something.

Speaker 3 Like,

Speaker 3 good. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Okay. And do you feel open to getting to know it too?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I do. I think that's what I've been trying to do for the last year.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 So ask what it wants you to know about itself and don't think of the answer. Just wait.
And if nothing comes, that's okay.

Speaker 3 But just see if something does come.

Speaker 2 Yeah, what came immediately was, I've always just tried to protect us.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 And how do you feel toward it hearing that?

Speaker 2 I feel

Speaker 3 love.

Speaker 3 So let it know.

Speaker 2 I love you.

Speaker 3 And maybe ask it

Speaker 3 what it's afraid would happen if it didn't do this

Speaker 3 or do it in the past. What was it afraid would happen?

Speaker 3 I think it was, well,

Speaker 3 okay, right.

Speaker 2 What it said,

Speaker 2 it's afraid we'll get big.

Speaker 3 Uh-huh.

Speaker 3 And what would happen? Ask it, what would happen if you got big?

Speaker 2 We wouldn't be lovable.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 Does that make sense to you, Glennon?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 So let it know that that makes sense. That it was trying to keep you small enough to be lovable.

Speaker 3 That makes sense.

Speaker 3 And see how it reacts to being understood better.

Speaker 2 I feel like it's really excited. Now I just feel fucking crazy.

Speaker 3 Why?

Speaker 3 I don't know.

Speaker 3 Now you're doing great.

Speaker 3 I think it's excited.

Speaker 3 It's excited to be heard, right?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like really excited.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 ask it now how old it thinks you are.

Speaker 3 I don't know.

Speaker 2 I don't know. I don't think it knows.

Speaker 3 You're not getting an answer? No. Okay.

Speaker 3 Okay, that's fine.

Speaker 2 To be fair, I never know how old I am either. So my parts.

Speaker 1 Yeah, numbers are not your specialty.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I just wanted you to reassure it that you're not a little kid anymore.

Speaker 3 Yeah. So maybe you could just do that, even though you didn't get a number.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I see.

Speaker 3 And see how it reacts.

Speaker 2 I think it feels

Speaker 2 like

Speaker 2 that is possible, but I don't, I don't think it feels sure yet.

Speaker 3 yeah okay

Speaker 3 so ask it more about that about it's not being sure

Speaker 3 that you're not a kid

Speaker 2 i think it feels like

Speaker 2 it's like a little part of me who feels

Speaker 2 hopeful that

Speaker 2 i'm becoming a responsible adult that can take care of things and protect it, but it's also

Speaker 2 unsure

Speaker 2 that it's not completely confident yet.

Speaker 2 So it's like, eh, okay.

Speaker 2 Are you sure you've got this?

Speaker 3 And what do you say?

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 am more confident than I've ever been

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 I am going to be able to

Speaker 2 lead us,

Speaker 2 but I understand its hesitancy to believe that because we've

Speaker 2 started and tried so many times.

Speaker 3 That's great. Yeah.
Let it know you have to keep earning its trust.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And you plan to do that.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 See how it reacts.

Speaker 2 Okay. I think it's like,

Speaker 3 all right.

Speaker 2 I think it's, it's really sweet and hopeful.

Speaker 3 And ask in the future or from here on

Speaker 3 if there's something it needs from you to earn its trust.

Speaker 3 Just ask that question. Don't think, Clennam.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it feels like.

Speaker 3 A couple of times you preface with I think. So just wait and see what comes.

Speaker 2 It feels as if,

Speaker 2 and I don't know what this is, but it keeps, it's like, well, then we'll know when we stop doing things that we shouldn't be doing.

Speaker 2 It feels like, why then do you put us in situations that make us afraid or

Speaker 2 it's too hard for us, but you keep doing it.

Speaker 3 So you know what it's talking about?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But sometimes I feel scared that what it's talking about is everything.

Speaker 3 So, ask it, ask it.

Speaker 3 Ask if that's everything or if it's just certain situations. Just ask and wait for the answer.

Speaker 3 I don't know. I don't know what it's saying.
Nothing's coming.

Speaker 2 I mean, some things are coming.

Speaker 3 The things that are coming,

Speaker 3 are they things that you can not do?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 So what do you say to the part about all that?

Speaker 2 I want to say that I will experiment with not doing any of the things that that part doesn't want to do. I don't know if we can adult and not do any of the things this part doesn't want to do.

Speaker 2 But I actually do.

Speaker 2 It wants me to do. It wants me to.
experiment with not doing any of the things that this part doesn't want to do.

Speaker 3 Okay, and what are you saying to it about that?

Speaker 2 I'm saying that we will take that request into consideration.

Speaker 3 Okay, so

Speaker 3 there are other parts that want to do these things and would have trouble giving them up.

Speaker 3 Is that right?

Speaker 3 Yeah, so that's what we call a polarization.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 maybe tell the part

Speaker 3 that you're going to work with these other parts that are so attached to doing these things.

Speaker 3 And we'll see if you can work out some kind of arrangement or some kind of deal

Speaker 3 with those parts and see how it reacts to that idea.

Speaker 2 It wants to be the most important.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 What do you say to it about that?

Speaker 2 I get it. I also want it to be the most important.
I'm obsessed with this little thing, whatever the fuck

Speaker 2 it is. I am obsessed with this part for the first time.

Speaker 2 I really want to do right by this part.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 How about this then?

Speaker 3 Would you be willing to commit to it for a period of time to not do these other things?

Speaker 3 And see how it goes.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 So do that and see how it reacts.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 Okay, I think that is good.

Speaker 3 Don't think, just ask it. Okay.
Wait for the answer.

Speaker 3 Just wait. Be patient.

Speaker 2 It feels

Speaker 2 happy and playful about that.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 And what's the time period?

Speaker 3 Just ask it what it could look like

Speaker 3 as a test.

Speaker 2 Six months.

Speaker 3 And how is that for you? For these other parts? Can they do that?

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 see if it can shorten the time.

Speaker 2 I think what this thing wants to do, and I'm thinking, okay, I'm not thinking.

Speaker 2 This part of me

Speaker 2 wants to not be in situations

Speaker 2 where it feels like it can't

Speaker 2 be itself.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 So this part wants to just say what it wants to say, wants to be how it wants to be, wants to not control itself or

Speaker 2 be scared.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 Sounds reasonable.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 But these other parts want to put you in those situations where you have to be somebody else.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 So we're not going to resolve it today, but this would be, if I were working with you, this would be a kind of ongoing negotiation.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 if we were to take a next step at this point,

Speaker 3 I would have you ask the part

Speaker 3 if it is stuck in the past somewhere that we need to get it out of.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 that's a little... often a little more emotional so we don't have to do that if you don't want but we could no we can

Speaker 3 okay

Speaker 3 So ask it

Speaker 3 where it might be stuck in the past. And don't think.
Just wait and see what comes.

Speaker 3 Because your thinking mind will get it wrong. So just wait and see if something comes now.

Speaker 2 I mean, what comes is that this part isn't stuck in the past. This part

Speaker 2 is

Speaker 2 presently joyful. And it's all the like parts that don't want me to do what that part wants me to do that is stuck in the past.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 That's good to know. Let it know you get that.

Speaker 2 It's like this part wants me to believe that we can just play and be

Speaker 2 happy. But the other parts are like, no, you can't.
You have to do the thing. You have to go, you have to be with those people.

Speaker 2 You have to

Speaker 2 do the work. You have to follow the schedule.
You have to do all these things.

Speaker 2 It's like those are the parts in the past this one is just

Speaker 2 I think she's right

Speaker 3 I do too so ask her if she'd like us to work with one of those other parts

Speaker 2 yes that's what she would like she wants to be left the fuck alone

Speaker 3 all right

Speaker 3 should we keep going yeah

Speaker 3 All right, so focus on that driven part that's always pushing and find it in your body around your body. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Where do you find it? It's like much higher, it's very chesty and shouldery and heady.

Speaker 3 How do you feel toward it?

Speaker 2 I feel uh tight,

Speaker 3 tight, like afraid of it, or tight, like it makes you feel tight.

Speaker 2 It makes me feel rigid.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but how do you feel toward it?

Speaker 2 Um, I feel a little bit

Speaker 2 uptight or scared or

Speaker 3 scared of it.

Speaker 2 What's the word? I don't feel scared of it. I feel

Speaker 2 bossed around by it. I feel like

Speaker 3 sort of

Speaker 3 controlled by it. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Which is what that part was complaining about. Yes.

Speaker 2 And like it doesn't have a lot of breath. Yeah.
It makes me feel like

Speaker 3 not a lot of breath. Yeah.

Speaker 3 but let's get all the parts that have an attitude about it to give us some space to just help it and get to know it oh so so you can just open your mind to it

Speaker 2 huh because that's not a bad part either no

Speaker 3 right it's it's trying to protect you for some reason we'll find out

Speaker 2 okay

Speaker 3 How do you feel toward it now?

Speaker 2 Curious.

Speaker 3 So let it know and just see what it wants you to know about itself and why it does this so much.

Speaker 3 What it's afraid would happen if it didn't.

Speaker 2 I feel like it's saying

Speaker 2 I'm scared for us.

Speaker 3 That's right. How do you feel toward it as you get that it's really just scared?

Speaker 2 Now it's just feeling like all of the people that are like kind of

Speaker 2 wild, like high energy, stressful in my life. Like I feel like it's just trying to

Speaker 2 keep us.

Speaker 2 I feel like I can see it from a bit of a distance when you say it that way.

Speaker 3 How much distance would you say in terms of feet away?

Speaker 2 Like not far, like one foot.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 Well, that's better than being totally blended with it.

Speaker 3 So.

Speaker 3 From that little bit of distance,

Speaker 3 again, ask it what it's afraid would happen because it said it's really afraid if it didn't push you this way.

Speaker 2 I hear you, you will be worthless.

Speaker 2 Everything will fall apart.

Speaker 3 Got it. Okay.

Speaker 3 So it really feels the responsibility of keeping you together and keeping you from feeling worthless. Is that right?

Speaker 2 It's worthless. Worth keeps coming in.
It's like, what will you be worth? Like,

Speaker 2 what will you be worth to your family? What will you you be worth to your sister what will you be worth to your the world what will you be worth you'll be worthless okay

Speaker 3 okay does that make sense that it would be pushing to make you valuable and

Speaker 2 yes

Speaker 3 okay so look now how do you feel toward it

Speaker 2 I mean, I understand it.

Speaker 3 So let it know that.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 So ask if it protects the part of you that does feel worthless.

Speaker 3 Oof.

Speaker 2 So when you say that, I feel the other part

Speaker 2 like glowing.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 2 Like it, it's,

Speaker 2 I don't think that I feel worthless anymore because of that other little glowing part. Okay.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 it may be that this driven part just needs to be updated.

Speaker 3 You follow me? Yeah.

Speaker 3 So let it know that that one has been healed and it doesn't feel worthless anymore and just see how it reacts to that info.

Speaker 2 It feels like it was very tornadoy

Speaker 2 and now it's like muting a little bit. The colors are muting a little bit.
It's like a little bit further away.

Speaker 3 Okay, that's great.

Speaker 3 And ask it if it could really trust that it didn't have to do this to make you feel valuable all the time. What might it like to do if it was freed up to do something else?

Speaker 3 Oh,

Speaker 2 it's like a blob.

Speaker 3 It wants to rest, I bet.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's like tornado to like blob.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 So let it know that's where you're headed. You're going to free it up so it can be a blob.
Oh,

Speaker 3 okay.

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2 Now we've got a gray blob and a glowing little hot

Speaker 3 orange

Speaker 2 part over here and a gray blob.

Speaker 3 And we'll finish in a minute, but let's go back to the glowing one.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 And just ask if it's aware of the piece piece of work you just did with the other one and how it feels about that.

Speaker 2 It's saying, like,

Speaker 2 you thought the energy was in the tornado, but the energy is in the glowing blob.

Speaker 2 That's not even the energy. Like, you think if you live over with that part,

Speaker 2 that's where the energy is, but it's not even, it's not, that's not it. It's in the glowing.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 What's it like to get all that?

Speaker 2 Well, Dick Schwartz, I feel like I want to paint.

Speaker 3 Great.

Speaker 3 Oh.

Speaker 3 Well, don't run off just yet. Okay, I'm not going anywhere.
I'm not going anywhere.

Speaker 2 That feels really

Speaker 2 understandable. The idea of understanding ourselves as a community of helpers

Speaker 2 makes so much more sense to me than my whole life where I've been, am I this or that? Am I this or that? Like, just we are,

Speaker 2 all of our pronouns should be we.

Speaker 3 It's true.

Speaker 2 And the idea that they're all just trying to help.

Speaker 3 Sorry.

Speaker 4 I have so much compassion towards your little glowy self because

Speaker 2 can you imagine?

Speaker 4 Like, I just identify a tiny bit because I feel like my primary role part, my loudest part is like protector.

Speaker 4 And I am very often seen as a real pain in the ass to everyone, but I feel like I'm just loving them through protecting them.

Speaker 4 And so, when your little glowing part who has just been working so hard to protect you your whole life and has your life force in it, but then has been continuously just villainized and shamed as if that's like the worst part of you, and everything's good about you except for this part that keeps doing these things.

Speaker 4 And if you could just eradicate that, you'd be a good person.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 2 it was just trying to do its best the whole time.

Speaker 3 That's right, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 2 i started in during this round of recovery i started

Speaker 2 understanding before i i understood all the language that you have given us that there was a part of me that did not feel heard And it was a very young part of me.

Speaker 2 And when I recovered from bulimia, because I thought I was recovered, but really I just replaced bulimia with anorexia, right? I just controlled that part.

Speaker 3 I just kept that part like banished. Exactly right.
Exactly right.

Speaker 2 And so I started going for these long walks in the morning and just said, okay,

Speaker 2 that part,

Speaker 2 you can have these walks.

Speaker 2 This is where we're going to spend time together and you're going to be able to say whatever you need to say.

Speaker 2 This part would just like rise up, and it was all in memories, and all taking me back to childhood. And all we

Speaker 2 started calling them the exile walks because it was like the part of myself that I had exiled.

Speaker 2 That was obviously after I got your language.

Speaker 2 And I just spent a lot of time with that part, and it really just had always wanted me to tell the truth.

Speaker 2 I had always just wanted us to

Speaker 2 not pretend it didn't exist.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I was talking to my therapist yesterday who is very

Speaker 2 knowledgeable and speaks in this language, in the IFS language. And we were talking about how I actually have been painting so much lately, which if you knew me, it's the weirdest thing.

Speaker 2 It's so unproductive. It's horrible and awful at it, but I do it for hours a day.
It's so fun. Like this fun thing is brand new.

Speaker 2 And she said, isn't it interesting that you like spent enough time with this part?

Speaker 3 That's right.

Speaker 2 And now

Speaker 2 it can play.

Speaker 3 That's right. Exactly right.

Speaker 2 It's so wild.

Speaker 1 Can you explain the exile?

Speaker 2 Yeah, tell us about the exiles.

Speaker 3 Yeah, as I was confronted with all these different parts from my clients,

Speaker 3 I'm a systems thinker, so I'm trying to make sense of the patterns.

Speaker 3 like I would with our family. That's what we learned to do with family therapy is track the sequences of interaction and create a map of the family patterns.

Speaker 3 So I'm just doing that with this internal system.

Speaker 3 And the big distinctions that leaped out immediately were between the parts we've been talking about, well, we've been talking about both, but what we call protectors

Speaker 3 who, you know, we just talk to the striver part, it's trying to protect you that way, and the eating disorder parts doing that way.

Speaker 3 And then

Speaker 3 the parts they protect. Because as I would talk to these protectors, they would point to these others that they can't change until that's been healed, because that's somewhere locked away and

Speaker 3 it just drives the whole system. And so it turned out that, yeah, there are what we call exiled parts that you tended to lock away.
for a variety of reasons.

Speaker 3 Sometimes they just don't fit in your family and your family doesn't like those parts of you. And so you have to sort of exile them inside in inner basements or abysses.

Speaker 3 And then sometimes it's the impact of trauma. So

Speaker 3 these are generally the younger parts. They're these inner children who before they get hurt, they have these wonderful qualities like creativity and playfulness and

Speaker 3 wanting to love people and be close and all of that.

Speaker 3 But because they're the most sensitive parts of us, they get hurt the most by the traumas and the rejections and the betrayals.

Speaker 3 And so they take on these burdens of emotional pain or terror or worthlessness also.

Speaker 3 And once they carry those burdens, we don't want to be around them because they can overwhelm us with those feelings and make us totally feel that way. And so we lock them away too.

Speaker 3 And so most of us have a lot of exiles.

Speaker 3 And when you have a lot of exiles, you feel more delicate and the world seems a lot more dangerous because so many things could trigger them.

Speaker 3 And if they get triggered, they explode out and overwhelm you and then you're in bed for a week.

Speaker 3 And so to keep them contained,

Speaker 3 you have all these protectors and

Speaker 3 Their job is to both control the outside world, like the managers, what we call manager type protectors, so that you don't get triggered or

Speaker 3 keep you from feeling much, keep you a little dissociated from your body. So even if you did, you didn't feel it much.

Speaker 3 Or, you know, there's a whole bunch of different what we call manager roles. So the critics are often big managers.
If they criticize you enough, you'll stay small, right?

Speaker 3 And you won't take risks and you won't get hurt. Or they're criticizing you to try and motivate you to strive harder and work harder and look better, look perfect all the time.

Speaker 3 Or there's caretaking managers that take care of everybody else, but don't let you take care of yourself, and so on and so on.

Speaker 3 So, we all have a bunch of managers,

Speaker 3 but

Speaker 3 if an exile gets triggered enough, it's kind of life-threatening, it feels like.

Speaker 3 And so, there's another set of parts who immediately go into action to get you away

Speaker 3 right now, get you out of your body, get you higher than the flames of emotion. Yes.

Speaker 3 Take you off in what seems to be out of control

Speaker 3 because you can't stop them. So they're very impulsive and reactive.
And damn the torpedoes. I don't care about the collateral damage to your body, to your relationships.

Speaker 3 I just have to save your life by doing this extreme thing right now. Yes.

Speaker 3 And so most of us have... a bunch of those also.

Speaker 3 They're not active all the time. Sometimes with some people they are, but most of us, they're just kind of standby.

Speaker 3 We call them firefighters because they're fighting the flames of exile devotion.

Speaker 3 And usually there's a hierarchy of them. So you've got these sort of low risk firefighters like binging on TV or, you know, work or whatever.
And then there's the higher risks like anorexia.

Speaker 3 And at the top of the hierarchy for most people is suicide. It's the ultimate firefighter.

Speaker 3 And so these lower level firefighters are literally saving your life a lot of the time. Wow.
So

Speaker 3 that's the map to the territory.

Speaker 3 And then there is self.

Speaker 3 And so when I was asking you the question, how do you feel toward these parts? I was checking to see how much of yourself was present.

Speaker 3 And I didn't have you interact with the part until you said, yeah, I can open my mind. I'm curious about it.
Or even I care about it. I feel a lot of love for it.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 the saving grace with all this is there is this self in there who can begin to depolarize, begin to get parts out of where they're stuck in the past, and begin to have them all start to trust you as the leader, which is where we started was.

Speaker 3 How can we get that part to trust you? And it was very clear. I'm not going to trust you until you stop putting me in these situations.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's like with anorexia or bulimia. I'm starting to figure out that I have a moment of dissociation before

Speaker 2 the eating behavior starts. I didn't even know that for the last 30 years.
I just thought I do these weird things and I don't know why.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 2 when we slow it down completely, we can see there's a moment that comes. that's like,

Speaker 2 this is a scary moment or something. That's right.
It feels too much.

Speaker 3 That's the exile that got triggered. Exactly.

Speaker 2 And then like

Speaker 2 15 minutes later, I'm

Speaker 2 in the toilet. I'm throwing up.
I'm, I don't even know what happened. Like, I'm just.

Speaker 3 It's exactly right.

Speaker 2 So is that, that's a part of me saying, I have to do something dramatic right now to protect you from this thing that's about to kill you, which are these big feelings.

Speaker 3 We are trying to avoid that. That's exactly right.

Speaker 2 So even if it feels crazy, I mean, I've had moments where I'm like, oh my God, like I'm a good mom. I'm a good mom.
Like, that's the one thing that I have been, I'm, whatever that means, I am it.

Speaker 2 And I have had moments where I'm like throwing up where my kids are outside the bathroom. And I'm like,

Speaker 2 oh my God, they could find me. They could.
And I think this,

Speaker 2 this part

Speaker 3 is so

Speaker 3 desperate. That's right.

Speaker 2 Nothing else matters. It actually thinks we're going to die because if it didn't, it wouldn't do this.

Speaker 3 That's right. That's exactly right.
Yeah. They don't care about the collateral damage.

Speaker 1 So is the goal then with these exiled parts that get triggered that then send your firefighters into action, is the goal to deal with these exiled parts, bring them up, have a relationship with them so that you can develop the skill set to deal with the emotions when those get triggered so as to not need to call upon the firefighters?

Speaker 1 Or is it possible to deal with these exiled parts in a way that you no longer get triggered?

Speaker 3 That is correct. Yes, that's the big goal of IFS is to heal these exiles so they don't carry these burdens anymore.
And they can just be like your glowing part really is a healed exile.

Speaker 3 And so we have to convince these others that they don't need to protect it. in the same way,

Speaker 3 but it doesn't need the protection it did. It won't get triggered in the same way because you've unburdened it somehow.
So that's the goal.

Speaker 3 And the challenge is, and what I learned the hard way with these internal systems is

Speaker 3 protectors are really, really scared to have you go to exiles.

Speaker 3 So generally we work with protectors first, not expecting them to change. So if I was working with your eating disorder part, I would say, no, I'm not here to make you change.

Speaker 3 We just want to get to know you. And we want to get permission to go to what you protect.

Speaker 3 And what are you afraid would happen if we went to that exile, if we went to that little one who's so hurt?

Speaker 3 And there's a common series of fears they have.

Speaker 3 They're afraid of the overwhelm. They're afraid of those emotions.
Like you said, they're afraid of being judged by me. There's a trauma set.

Speaker 3 And now we have ways to address each of their fears.

Speaker 3 We don't go to exiles without permission from the protectors.

Speaker 3 Because I learned that the hard way. Because if you go without permission, there's what we call protector backlash.
And you have some kind of big after reaction that's pretty severe sometimes.

Speaker 2 So is the eating disorder the protector or the exile?

Speaker 3 Eating disorder, so it's likely that we started by talking to the eating disorder.

Speaker 3 And then it showed the exile had been protecting, which is the blowy part now. I'm not sure.
You'd have to ask, but that would be my guess.

Speaker 3 It could be that that's the transformation of the eating disorder part.

Speaker 3 But my understanding, it's still active. So I doubt that.

Speaker 2 Interesting.

Speaker 4 Can you give us some common examples of exiles? If these are the most like extreme

Speaker 3 parts that

Speaker 4 we as people have decided we can't handle, they can't be part of our lives.

Speaker 4 What are some of those that you see a lot?

Speaker 3 Well,

Speaker 3 there are the vulnerable exiles that I mentioned earlier. So the parts of you that

Speaker 3 because when you got hurt, they took on the worthlessness. They assumed that you

Speaker 3 must have no value because your parents treated you a certain way, but they're young and they don't know any better.

Speaker 3 And because they can make you now feel that worthlessness, so you can't even function

Speaker 3 or you shrink away you can't have that in your life so then you lock them up so that would be one common example

Speaker 3 and the same is true for parts that carry a lot of terror that you can't function if you're feeling that terror all the time so you tend to lock them up

Speaker 4 So the actual exile, whatever it is, is kind of arbitrary. It's what we assigned to it.

Speaker 4 So if the shame is what's overwhelming or the sense of worthlessness, we take this arbitrary exile and we say, you are the one that I'm giving all the shame to and I'm putting you away so that I never have to face that shame.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I wouldn't put it exactly like that. Okay.
These are younger parts. So they're

Speaker 3 and they often are the ones that just believe what whoever hurt you said about you. Yeah.
So they take in that I'm not valuable message.

Speaker 3 Or because they're young, they're the ones that get scared the most by whatever trauma happened and so now they're just stuck in that they're frozen in that scene and they're just terrified

Speaker 3 or they feel the pain and the grief of the loss the most and you don't want to feel that all the time so you lock them up

Speaker 3 and you do it not thinking oh here's this valuable part of me that carries this so now i'm going to lock it up you do it because ours is a kind of rugged individualist culture culture where the way to handle trauma is to just move on

Speaker 3 and don't look back and just let the memories go and the emotions.

Speaker 3 And you do that thinking that's all you're doing, not realizing you're distancing from your most precious qualities, your most precious parts.

Speaker 3 Because as we find, when people get access to their exiles, they want to start to paint. They want to start to play.
They get access to these things that they have locked away all the time. Yes.

Speaker 3 Does that make sense, Samanda? Yes.

Speaker 2 The exile, it feels to me like my most precious part.

Speaker 3 Absolutely. Well, you don't want to say that to your kids.
You know, you don't want to say, you're my most precious kid.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you're partial to that part.

Speaker 3 Yeah. You are.
I am.

Speaker 2 You have my favorite child.

Speaker 3 It's great to welcome it, but

Speaker 3 you can say that secretly, but don't tell your other parts. That's my most precious part.

Speaker 1 That's good advice.

Speaker 2 Oh, we're going to stop there with Dick Schwartz, but don't worry because the next episode, we are going to come back. Sister is going to go through her parts.
Abby is going to go through her parts.

Speaker 2 And we are going to figure out with Dick Schwartz how you can start to know your parts and live more in this

Speaker 2 self.

Speaker 2 This capital S self that operates from curiosity, calm, confidence, compassion, creativity, and clarity, courage, and connectedness that we're all trying to live from.

Speaker 2 Come back next time. Bye.

Speaker 2 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

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Speaker 2 We Can Do Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. Also, by Allison Schott and Dina Cabana.

Speaker 2 I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle.

Speaker 3 I walked through fire. I came out the other side.

Speaker 3 I chased desire,

Speaker 3 I made sure I got what's mine.

Speaker 3 And I continue

Speaker 3 to believe

Speaker 3 that I'm the one for me.

Speaker 3 And because I'm mine,

Speaker 3 I walk the line.

Speaker 3 Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on the map

Speaker 3 A final destination

Speaker 3 lack We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 3 to places they've never been

Speaker 3 And to be loved, we need to be known

Speaker 3 We'll finally find

Speaker 3 our way back home.

Speaker 3 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 3 that our lives

Speaker 3 bring,

Speaker 3 we can do a hard game.

Speaker 3 I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

Speaker 3 I'm not the problem.

Speaker 3 Sometimes things fall apart.

Speaker 3 And I continue

Speaker 3 to believe

Speaker 3 the best

Speaker 3 people are free.

Speaker 3 And it took some time,

Speaker 3 but I'm finally fine.

Speaker 3 Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

Speaker 3 A final destination

Speaker 3 we lack.

Speaker 3 We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 3 to places they've never been.

Speaker 3 And to be loved, we need to rekn.

Speaker 3 We'll finally find our way back home.

Speaker 3 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 3 that our lives

Speaker 3 bring,

Speaker 3 we can do a hard game.

Speaker 3 Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

Speaker 3 We might get lost, but we're okay with that. We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 3 in some places

Speaker 3 they've never been.

Speaker 3 And to be loved, we need to belong.

Speaker 3 We'll finally find our way back on.

Speaker 3 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 3 that our lives bring,

Speaker 3 we can do hard

Speaker 3 things.

Speaker 3 Yeah, we can do hard things.

Speaker 3 Yeah, we

Speaker 3 can do hard

Speaker 3 things.