289. The Sports: The Kind of Embarrassing Psychology of Winning & Losing

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Hello!

Welcome to We Can Hard.

We can hard do things.

We can hardly do things.

We can hard do things.

We can hardly do things.

We can hardly do things.

Oh my God.

That is so much writer.

That's so good.

Welcome to We Can Hardly Do Things.

And

that's what next season is going to be called.

And I am very, very excited to hear today from this precious pod squatter named Naomi.

Let's hear from you, Naomi.

Hi, I'm Naomi.

I need y'all's help.

I really need you to help me with the emotions of sports.

Like, how do you handle it?

How do you get over it?

I was never a sports person, and a couple years ago, I was like, oh, this will be a nice, life, fun thing to help me unwind and bond with my family.

Yeah, not light.

Not light.

49 is in my team.

I am way more devastated than I feel comfortable being about a ball game in an organization called the NFL, which is really, actually really very screwed up.

And I'm a therapist, so I can handle a lot of emotions and I can't handle these.

I can't handle these.

A lot of other, way more important things going on, and I am so devastated.

Please, please help.

I saw the Instagram post of Lenin after I think it was Japan lost in the World Cup, and I feel that way.

Please help me.

Bye.

Naomi.

What did she say?

I'm way more devastated than I'm comfortable with.

Yeah.

What did she say?

Oh, my God.

We can ruin the sports, can't we?

People like that.

I'm way more devastated than I feel comfortable being about a ball game.

Yeah.

That's what she said.

What's your take, y'all?

I mean,

obviously sports is my jam.

And Naomi, I can relate to.

feeling the utter devastation.

And I like how you worded it, that you aren't as comfortable being about an actual game.

One of the things that I think is so fascinating about sports, and it's really why people come to watch sports, I think, deep down,

is we don't know what's going to happen.

We just don't, when we're watching television shows and we can kind of see the story arc and we have an idea and it's safe, right?

But with sports, it's all up in the air.

You just never really truly know.

And that's why we come to it, because it's something that could surprise you.

I mean, you're surprised by this devastation, Naomi.

One of the things that I learned throughout the course of my life as an athlete

is

the devastation is super telling.

I'm the kind of person

that hated losing more than than I liked winning.

For like a five-year-old, my competitiveness was probably too much

for a five-year-old, but

it kind of laid the groundwork for me doing what I did for my job for so long.

And being devastated

by the 49ers loss, it makes sense to me.

for so many reasons because you know the way women often also watch games it's just it's not always about the winning and losing it's like you grow attached to these players the story i mean brock purdy give me a break with that guy you know like everybody wanted him to win because he was like making the least amount on the field it's interesting why does sports make us feel

so

many different things.

That's it.

It's not just devastation.

It's also like, we're sad that the season is over.

We're sad that this culmination, this big game, the Super Bowl happened.

And there's like a little bit of a letdown.

Like now, what do we do with ourselves and our energy?

And there's also one of the things that I think is really amazing about the sports is that

I think it's wonderful to have a reason.

to just sit on your couch all day, but be doing something.

But be

doing something.

And not only are you doing something,

you are

attached to a collective.

So you're sitting your lazy ass on the couch,

but you are

part of a movement

of like move minds.

With no movement.

Yes.

Is what I'm talking about.

And I'm not saying that in a judgmental way.

I feel that.

It is a very different feeling to sit down in the middle of a Sunday and turn on a movie.

That's like, oh, we've given up.

We are really, we have given up.

Nope.

Is there any football on?

Is there any whatever on?

Now I am

contributing

in an important way.

I am connected.

I am part of a whole.

I think there are those of us who are invited into the sports.

by partners, by friends, by people we love.

And those people have practiced longer turning it it on and off.

This is what's upsetting to me.

Like, you invited me into this world.

Okay.

So I sit with Abby and she's like, here's the World Cup.

Here's the things.

Here's the people.

She's talking to me about the players.

She's da-da-da.

Then

everyone tries their hardest.

We are watching people lay every bit of themselves on the line, which we do not see ever.

No.

No.

That's why concerts move us.

That's why it's somebody being so vulnerable that they are trying their hardest.

That's not something we see all the time.

And we resonate with it.

And when people who are trying their hardest then lose and are laid out on the field, and then our partners go, all right, so what's for lunch?

Click.

And we're like, good night.

That's the worst.

I'm like, good night.

I'm not sleeping for four hours.

Like, yes.

Where's the debrief?

Where's the

support group for afterwards?

No resolution.

No resolution.

We're not going to process anything.

We're just going to turn the channel.

We feel abandoned.

Yeah, I think that what you were just saying, though, I think that that's the key.

And I've talked to you a little bit about this because I think it's the real reason why people like watching sport is because you are seeing a bunch of people

caring the most

about what is happening.

Them opening themselves up.

It's like they've ripped their hearts open.

They're like,

they have a big sign on their heart that says, I care about this the most and I'm going to do everything I possibly can to have the best outcome that I can.

Now, Naomi, I think that what you're feeling is also the same.

You're feeling a little bit of like a vulnerability hangover because you were saying,

I care the most about the 49ers winning this game.

And when they don't, you feel a little embarrassed.

You feel a little

vulnerable.

No, I listen, Andrea.

Like, totally.

This is the way that I felt when I was on the field playing, showing the world that I cared the most.

And then when we lost, I was like the most embarrassed because I was like, I care the most.

I believe we can do this.

Please come watch me.

I swear we're going to win.

Yeah.

Awkward.

And then it's like, just kidding.

I care the most.

And also, I didn't follow through.

but why because it's i'll tell you why okay can you because i want to know why why does a smart person like naomi or me

or any of us actually care that's what's embarrassing there's stuff going on in the news that if we all got behind and cared the most about

But like, why is this thing what we all show up for in the stands and bleed burgundy and gold?

Like, is it tribalism?

Sort of.

I want you to explain to to me, sister, because I know you've done probably some research about this.

What I'm going to admit to the pod squad right now is that

I go see my daughter play the soccer.

Okay.

Oh, God.

What?

I'm okay with winning and losing now.

I'm cool.

I have done my breathing exercises.

I understand that this is a game that we're playing.

When someone knocks down my daughter

the other day in the stands.

Yeah.

Now, please understand that in the stands of our small school,

I'm still Glennon.

Abby's still Abby.

So Abby is an Olympian soccer player.

This is her wife.

Like, we are about love and understanding, and we can do hard things, et cetera, et cetera.

I stood up in the stands the other day and started screaming as loud as I could at the referee who was another mother.

No.

Yes, because this child was knocking my child over and no one was doing anything about it.

So I had to say things that I've heard other people say like, wake up, ref.

But I'm screaming that.

No one's yelling around me.

This is a dignified group of people.

And Abby, was it embarrassing?

Yes.

Like it should have been called?

I mean, look, like, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter.

Emma got knocked over and Glennon stands up like the most mama bear moment in the world I mean Amma's in high school she's not like 10 you know she's almost 16 these are high schoolers she understands that she's going to get knocked down in the games yeah it's part of the game right and glennon stands up and she's just like hey

that's a foul

What are you looking at, Ref?

Standing up, screaming and I'm running back and forth.

I'm like pulling Glennon's clothes and I'm like, sit down.

What are you doing?

This is embarrassing to all of us, not just Amma, but me and yourself.

Right.

You are off-branded right now.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

And you can imagine how well that went.

Sit down.

You're embarrassing me.

Well, now I've got a double down, triple down.

Whatever I'm doing, I can't admit that this is wrong now.

Yeah.

What I'm saying is we can lose ourselves.

We can lose ourselves.

Also, people who have never been in a sport, it is very hard for me to understand bodies getting stream around as if it's okay.

Whatever my reptilian brain is just sees my daughter being thrown to the ground.

And the amygdala or whatever is not quick enough to say, this is okay.

This is what we signed up for.

All I know is I have to fight for my daughter.

Danger, fire, danger.

Yes.

It's really something.

So that I feel like is a slightly different

conversation.

I think think that has to do with like survival, maternal instinct, and general bad manners.

Okay, okay.

Got it.

But

Abby, it's funny when you were talking about how like we don't know

what's going to happen.

And Glenda, you were like, why do we all sit around and just watch this?

What is the deal?

Why this thing of all things?

It's called the.

optimal level of chaos.

Watching sports is the perfect blend of predictability and chance.

And that's what we crave.

Because if it was totally predictable, if it was just like, well,

these players have these stats and they are better.

And these players have these stats and they are less good.

And then it would be too predictable that this team would always win, we would never watch.

But the predictability is important because that's what keeps us invested.

That's what keeps the players working hard.

That's what keeps it sexy and interesting.

But there's always the chance piece that you never know what's going to happen.

And so that is for our minds.

We love that the most.

So that makes me forgive us.

That makes me forgive us.

That's why we can't put the same amount of energy behind like things happening on the news because that's too outside the box of optimal.

It's too risky.

It's too unknown.

This is like a little box of safety where we can.

pour ourselves out because no matter what, probably no one's going to die.

The risk is low, the stakes are lower.

Well, I don't know anything about that.

I just know that we crave that mix of predictability and chance.

Like that, that's why March Madness people are obsessed with.

There's always going to, there's the chance of the Cinderella story.

Like, we want our minds and hearts want that.

But it's also a major belonging thing.

So, they did studies and they found out that for fans, being identified with a favorite team is more important than being identified with their work, with their social group, and is as or more important to them than being identified with their religion.

Wow.

For these superfan people and in this culture where they scientists call them like totems.

If you are like, I am a Bears fan, I am a Cowboys fan, I'm whatever.

These are totems, which are signified points of connection for communities.

And it's ritual, right?

It's the pre-game, it's the Sunday.

This is what we do.

It's replacing what religion served for so long in cultures where religiosity continues to decline.

It's when you think of those markers: we belong, we are connected, we have this ritualized process that we go through and is predictable and come together on, and we belong

to each other.

It's really crazy.

So that's what's bringing us.

But like the upset thing,

I just feel Naomi so much on that because it doesn't feel like it makes sense.

If you're a new to a sport, like, why do you care?

And it feels kind of embarrassing, honestly, to care that.

And I feel this way with my kids' games.

I know like there's a million things I want them to learn in sports.

And at least half of them require them to lose in order to learn those things.

I want them to know how to climb back when everyone's counted them out.

I want them to learn how to keep their heart in it, even when they're definitely not going to win.

I want them to tune out the world and tune into themselves.

I want them to lose gracefully.

I want them to be happy for their friends, even when they're sad for themselves.

All of these things that require them to lose.

And I'm still so sad every time they lose.

So they did these studies and I find these absolutely hilarious.

So when your team loses, testosterone drops, your brain produces cortisol.

When you lose, meaning like the team that you wanted to win, you're just a fan, okay?

Your own testosterone drops, your own cortisol increases, and you produce less serotonin,

which can lead to anger and depression.

It's like a mini depression.

It's real.

But when you win, you release dopamine.

And listen to this.

They did studies of fans.

So they like had fans watch a game and then they studied the fan losers and the fan winners.

And

the fans who saw their team win believed they could do much better on totally unrelated tasks, like solving puzzles and shooting darts.

Fans who saw their team lose believed that they would do crappy on solving puzzles and shooting darts.

And this is even better.

They did a study of the same losing and winning and they found that,

so this was about whether a desirable person would want to go out with them.

The losing fans said the person was unlikely to want to go out with them, and the winning fans thought the person would absolutely go out with them.

Oh, that is amazing, just based on whether their team won or lost.

It's like we are attributing to ourselves

the glory

or the defeat of the team.

And we're like, we are either a real shitbag right now, now, me and myself, or I am so good looking and so good at darts just because my team won.

It's wild.

It's a real thing.

And can be taken to dangerous levels.

I mean, I believe in England, they have like a much higher rate of violence in the home after losses

because men feel those things.

They feel.

that power has been taken from them.

I mean, there's darkness to this, too.

On the other side, it makes me feel a little bit like if we are wired for this thing where we desperately need a shared purpose and we desperately need community.

We know that.

People need purpose.

They need community.

Maybe sports isn't that bad of a thing that we can get those things from because it's better than religion when you think about the Eagles coaches aren't going to go, okay, you guys, for real, we need to invade this other place in the name of our tribalism and religion.

Like religion can get us in a lot of violence and trouble, right?

So maybe this is a good way, a less dangerous way to indulge our need for shared purpose and community than other versions of tribalism.

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We've always had theater.

We've always had arts, right?

And Brian Phillips, who's a sports writer, says that sport is like music or fiction or film in that for a predetermined duration, it asks you to give control over your emotions to feel what it makes you feel.

Which is

that is the vulnerability, right?

Like, I don't know how I'm going to feel.

I'm sitting down reading this book, watching this play, or watching a game, and I am giving over whatever I'm going to feel to whatever happens right here.

Interesting.

It's a surrender.

It's an exercise in that, which is,

it must be part of the human condition to require that.

Or else, why would we have had

art and theater and all of that for so long?

Is that like a cleansing that we do where we're like, we will be vulnerable and submit to this thing?

I would say.

Inside of two hours, but that's it.

Yeah, but I would say that sports is like the personification of the arts.

And okay, say more about that.

Yeah, like one time somebody said to me, you're an entertainer.

Cause I was just like, oh, no, I'm an athlete.

They're like, no, you're an entertainer.

Like you go out and people choose to leave their jobs.

to leave their families or bring their families or spend their resources on coming to watch you.

That is the crux of it.

Like you are out there to entertain them.

And so you are creating, you are an artist out there, creating an environment where people are entertained.

And that changed my mindset.

This is like midway through my career.

And I was like, whoa, for me, it's not just about the functionality of a play, of a technique, of a goal.

It's like, we're actually all here creating something out of literally nothing.

Cool.

And

there is an energy component to it all.

There's a woo-woo-ness

to it all that I don't think gets talked enough about in sport watching and participating and viewing sports.

Because as an athlete, This is when I started to really tap into it, like midway through my career, really tapping into this idea

that there was something way bigger than the actual game itself happening.

Because when that many people are putting their eyes on you,

watching you do this thing, and then it builds up, like the pressure and the intensity builds up throughout the course of a game.

There are certain people, I would argue, that I tapped into this different dimension of an energy that it was like,

A, I am going to rip my chest open and be the most vulnerable I possibly could and play with all of my emotion, my rage, my joy, my love, whatever.

And then when the intensity got so high, there were some players that could tap into this other energy that it was like, we were all willing this moment to be born out of nothing.

And that is what.

I think people are in to watching sports for, is that feeling, feeling, that moment, that energy, and then watching somebody, what somebody would say is like doing a superhuman thing.

Like when I scored that goal that Megan crossed against Brazil in the waning seconds,

I was not doing that.

I am clear that yes, my body was a vehicle for it, but there was way more shit going on in that moment than I can understand.

I mean, in fact, I don't remember the ball going in the goal.

It was like this moment, blackout.

And it's like all too much, but it was like so much muchness,

and everybody was a part of it.

So that is what I think brings people in.

And I think that is what that organized chaos.

People are hoping for one of those moments.

And it doesn't happen in every sports game or match or whatever you're watching.

But when the stakes are higher in a very big match, like a Super Bowl or a World Cup final or or whatever,

everybody's intensity and the energy that they bring watching raises.

And so the level of intensity and the amount of that muchness is truer and it's more palpable and it's more possible that these big, crazy moments happen.

There's a scientific thing for that, Abby.

As you're talking, I'm like, oh, that's what mirror neurons are.

So there are these things in our brain called mirror neurons.

And basically their purpose is to allow us to understand points of view outside of our own.

And so when people are watching sports that they are invested in, we put ourselves through our mirror neurons

into

the players on the field.

Like we believe that we are experiencing what the folks on the field are experiencing.

And it shows up in our bodies.

When they test people's bodies, the fans who are watching, they are releasing adrenaline.

Their heart rates, even though they're sitting there, are

rates that are associated with rigorous exercise.

Because they're so connected with these players on the field, we are them, we feel them, our bodies react as if we are them.

And so that, I wonder if that energy, you're like, okay, there's X number of us on the field, but in this place,

there's thousands of us having the energetic force, like willingness to happen.

Millions, millions of people.

That makes so much sense to me.

I mean, even when I'm like, when I've been running on a treadmill watching a sporting event, I actually almost fall off the treadmill because I am on the treadmill pretending I'm like the person doing the sport move on the court or on the field.

That is for sure what happens.

And that is exactly what I feel or what I felt when I was performing, when I was playing.

Is that why you actually feel like

there's, there's usually a moment in our kids games where if it's not going the way that abby thinks it should be going

like this just happened last week she stands up and she starts moving to different places in the stands it feels very serious like it's not a joke and like my my friend lindsay was sitting with us and she's like where does abby keep going and i said she has to change the energy but like that doesn't make

a superstition thing like how john won't if the red socks are winning I will just have to pee my pants.

I can't get up and go to the bathroom because that's moving a position while things are going well.

Is it the superstition or is it like you think you can shake up the energy?

Okay, so or is that the same thing?

I don't know.

Exactly.

You don't, who knows what to call it, but it's like something needs to change.

Some energy needs to change on the field.

You need to do your part.

And that includes moving around.

I'm telling you, because as an athlete, I knew I was very aware of all all of my surroundings i think a lot of athletes are really good at like walking into a room and being able to get a imprint of what's happening and not be able to vocalize it and so i always move towards the goal that amma's trying to score on i move closer to that goal

and i know you're like over here yes and i know deep down Amma looks over

because this is what I did throughout my career.

I was always conscious, very, very aware of where my people were sitting.

And if anything changed, I'd have to figure out, oh, wait, what's happening?

And so, like, it's just something that I do.

And that's the weirdest shit happens, is like Amma's team scores within the next

10 minutes.

It always works.

I don't know how to explain it, but we're just going to let it keep happening.

So, why don't you just stand by the goal like the whole time?

Because this is fucking weird.

And so, woo-woo, there is always a need for some sort of energy change.

And you can't start somewhere.

You have to induce the change with your own personal energy that's coming off of you, with your own personal idea of what power means, with your own wishing and willing something to happen.

You know, I will say that if you're not relating to this sports-wise,

when I go to a musical,

like a theater situation,

I am

unable to control my emotion.

I feel like I am the people on the stage.

I am every single person who goes up to sing.

I cannot believe how brave they are.

And I also am, I mean, I am keenly aware that I have a job in the audience.

Yes.

I mean,

I feel like watching every sport.

I'm like, I better do my part.

Okay.

Sending all my energy.

I'm exhausted at the end.

And sometimes I look around the audience and I'm like, did your parents not raise you right?

Like, do you understand that we are here, that this is a collective job, that every person who comes on that stage, I am going to beam at them as if I have Christ consciousness, whatever the fuck that is.

That is right.

I am.

That is right.

Every people passively just viewing something, I'm like, what are you even doing here?

No, we have a job in life.

You're contributing nothing.

You're just taking, taking, taking.

So whatever those mirror neurons are.

And then after a play, I just burst out crying.

Oh, after a theater play, yeah.

I can't, it's just so much.

I've been so brave.

I've been, I've worked your ass off.

I've worked my ass off.

We experienced the human tragedy of life together.

We did hard things.

We were so connected.

I just cry and cry.

I'm so tired.

I've been through so much.

So maybe that is something that is the same as the sports.

It is.

People who are watching the sports.

And maybe that is your, your science-y version of that, the mirror neurons.

That's why it's so exhausting.

And Naomi, it is a thing.

I remember being little and listening to the football games in my van with my dad.

He was a football coach, but he would be listening to the professional games.

And there was like this little song that always said, The thrill of victory, the agony of defeat.

Agony of defeat.

And I was little, but I remember thinking, agony?

Isn't that a little dramatic?

Really?

Agony?

Yes, Naomi.

Apparently it's agony.

I know.

It's embarrassing, but it feels, it feels that bad.

Oh my God.

Also, they did the same studies with the winners and the losers.

The

people who, after they won, their team won a game the next day, they ate healthfully.

Yeah.

And the people who lost the next day, they had all sugars and fats.

100%.

Wow, that's hilarious.

It affects what you crave.

It affects what you, it's amazing.

It's just a real thing.

So I think, Naomi, like you're probably just in great mental and physical health.

And this is the logical response.

And the fact that you're empathic,

the fact that you're so into your emotions, maybe

it impacts you more because like you're firing on all cylinders.

And here's what I want to say to all the Naomis.

If you think for one second that

the boys playing the sports make you emotional, Naomi, I'm going to need you to turn on the WNBA.

I'm going to need you to turn on the NWSL.

If you think that a bunch of men getting together and doing this slays you, oh, Naomi, you don't even know.

Okay.

when you watch women there's something about the sports that is frees us from all the gender cages so

i think that's why men like to watch the football too because they can be emotional yeah they're they're allowed to care they're allowed to cry they're allowed to cheer they're allowed to hugging each other

yes they're free from all of the rules why do you think they're always patting each other on the ass i think that that's probably why naomi is struggling with this so much and she even said it it's like she cares so much about this thing that's so commonly patriarchal, male-dominated.

Oh, okay.

I know it's weird, right?

It is real.

So take your feelings,

take them to the WNBA, forget it.

Like the WNBA and the NWSL make me cry almost like a musical because when you watch a bunch of women using their bodies for collective purpose and not to be viewed in like the lens that we're used to.

There's just something

that, I mean, I think that's why you are such an icon, Abby, because watching a woman

just embody

full-on

strength, vulnerability,

trying the hardest, taking it so seriously, like it's life or death, the way the men are allowed to do, Naomi, just trust me.

I mean, when we go to Angel City City games,

when there is also a purpose of

that side of it, when you're all gathered together to watch women who have been sidelined for so long,

then you don't even have to be embarrassed about your passion.

Yeah.

I mean, the other thing about sports that I find really fascinating is that there's an impermanence to it.

It's this little snapshot, this little fleeting moment that that like comes and then it goes.

And so I think probably what the devastation too is, is this longing for that snapshot to stay and last.

But this is, I think it's one of the greatest teachers for me, especially because life is so impermanent.

It's so fast.

It happens and then it's over.

And I don't know.

in this weird bizarre way it's like helping me get comfortable with dying oh it matches life and death interesting because it's such a quick thing.

And it's like, oh, we have to be really present in the moment.

And,

you know, losing the presence of that intensity and not having that intensity anymore is sad.

Oh, wow.

So we miss, it's not just about the football or it's not just about the sports or it's not just about the musical.

We miss the presence it brought out in us, the focus.

Yeah, I get that.

Huh.

Naomi, if it makes you feel any better, you may be temporarily down in the proverbial dumps, which Alice is with you.

She cried so hard when the 49ers lost and

took a lot of comforting.

Yes.

Why did she like the Niners?

It is unclear.

I'm surprised.

I would think she'd be on the Travis Kelsey train.

No, she was all Niners all day, and it was very, very sad.

She stayed up the entire game.

Wow.

And just bald.

Yeah.

So

you're in good company.

And also,

the good news is, is you're going to net out better because fans who identify strongly with a team are less likely to feel lonely or alienated and they have a higher self-esteem than people who do not identify strongly with the team.

So

get through your, you know, momentary in the dumps and just know you're probably netting out better with your 49ers love than if you didn't care.

Oh, that's great.

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All right, let's wrap this up with a pod squatter of the week.

We haven't had one for so long.

I love the pod squad.

I really do.

I just want to say that.

I love you guys so much.

And we see you guys out in the world, in the wild, and we just,

we couldn't do this without you, literally.

I have to tell one thing.

So

I have this little place where I go to paint because it's

because my family doesn't live there.

It's a little studio.

Yeah.

And there's this big window.

And I have my easel set up in front of this big window.

And it's very close to where people walk by all day.

Every single day that I'm painting there,

somebody stops on the walkway, looks at me.

and does like heart hands or shows me like that they're doing a paintbrush like they see I'm painting These two women stopped the other day and they made gestures so I could understand they were saying, We see you painting.

We see you painting.

Okay.

It was like a, what is that game you play with your family?

Rhymes with.

Yeah, charades.

Charades, it was.

It was a game of charades between us, me in the window, them there.

They were pod squatters for sure.

I don't even have to like, I know.

You just know.

And it's just so beautiful.

And sometimes I'll see a woman walking by, just dripping in babies and pushing a stroller and we'll make eye contact and it's this beautiful moment of like yes that

keep pushing the stroller but soon

paintbrush soon be pushing a brush instead of a double suit

we don't say anything because we're so far from each other but it's this moment So anyway, yes, we love you, Pod Squad.

Okay, let's hear from Emily.

Hey, Dean, this is Emily.

And I just had to call in and tell you that I am just back from a week with my family, and I implemented the thing that Adrienne Marie Brown and her sister were talking about, the sister check-in, as a way of sort of connecting and then protecting against conflict.

I did it with my brother and sister.

I was like, listen, we're doing this.

We're peeling off.

It's just three of us.

We're chatting for a little bit.

We're checking in about important things that have happened to us since we last saw each other, and I explained why.

And we did it, and it was great, and it worked.

And there was no conflict with my brother and sister, which is maybe unprecedented.

So, I just wanted to let everyone know that it works.

Thank you to the Brown sisters for the amazing idea.

I think we'll be doing it moving forward.

So, thank you for always giving us deep conversations and practical advice.

Okay, Okay, love you all.

Emily.

So it's Autumn Brown.

Autumn Brown is Adrienne Marie Brown's sister.

They are just forever giving the most beautiful advice.

We love them so much.

Yeah, Emily's talking about episode 266, How to Love Family When You're Divided on Beliefs.

And that was Adrienne Marie Brown and Autumn Brown.

who were talking about how they used to have a lot of conflict at

any family gathering because it would have been so long.

And then all three sisters would come and have kind of this preemptive resentment that each other didn't know what was going on in each other's lives and weren't asking them about it or weren't aware of kind of their sensitivities and triggers because of what happened throughout the year.

So they decided to meet.

You'll have to listen to the whole episode because they give a lot more context, but they would meet at the beginning of the get-together, have their private time together, say, what are the three most important things that have happened to you this year?

Tell us about it and go around.

And that they noted

made the rest of the time together

work

a lot better because they knew what was going on in each other's lives and they had the sensitivities to be aware of things.

But listen to 266 because they had a lot more good advice too.

Yeah, it's just such a beautiful way of approaching each other because especially in families, all we are is a bunch of stories to each other, old stories.

And so when you can figure out a way to apply beginner's mind to your people,

I think it can be the most beautiful thing because what I know for sure

is the things that we stare at

the most are the things we do not see.

Like The people that I think I have pegged, that I think I know the best, that I am staring at every day are the people I am least likely to see in their freshest, newest iteration.

So it is a way,

it is a way of approaching every single person in your family with just fresh beginner's mind every time, because no one is the same

day to day,

certainly not year to year.

Right.

So like, my God, if we could approach our friends and families in a way that we were like, oh, I'm going to start over every time.

Who are you?

How are you?

What are you?

And see each other freshly.

It releases like this pressure.

It's like releasing a pressure valve on how this relationship ought to be or what I should know about you.

And coming to it with this beginner's mind just makes it more like, I don't know, it's like.

when you're kids.

You're like, oh, you're a person.

Cool.

Like, what happened?

Yeah.

Pretend you don't know each other.

Pretend you don't know each other.

It's like Andrea Gibson.

I think it was the episode with their partner, Megan Falley, where they were talking about

the highest form of love is actually, I don't know you.

Yes.

Oh, man.

How the presumption and the kind of

reduction of someone to

I know you, I know everything about you, is supposed to indicate an intimacy.

But in fact, it is actually diminishing that person because it's like, you are a magical unicorn of mystery that is always changing.

Like when I come to you with the idea that I don't know you,

I am now curious and interested and want to hear it.

And when I come to you with I know you, judgment.

I'm, yeah.

It's a wall.

It's why they talk about beginner's beginner's mind so much.

If you look at a tree,

your mind goes tree,

and then there's no awe left.

The label of the thing

erases the miracle of the thing every time.

The language, the word, the story.

Yeah.

If you look at a tree and you don't allow yourself to go tree and you actually look at it, you could start crying.

Yeah.

And that's how people are.

It's like, if we could approach each other without the story, we would cry of awe in each other's presence.

So good.

So thank you for that, Emily.

Thank you, Autumn and Adrian, for just always reminding us of that.

Go forth, pod squad.

See each other without when you say go forth, do you feel like a priest?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Every time you say it, I think, She thinks she's a priest.

It's so good.

Go forth and be well.

The high priestess of Hard Things.

Thank you.

Go forth and think hard before multiplying.

See you next time, Pod Squad.

Bye.

Bye.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

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I give you Tish Milton and Brandi Carlisle.

I chased desire.

I made sure I got what's mine

and I continue to believe

that I'm the one for me.

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line

because we're adventurers and heartbreaks are map.

A final destination

lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do a hard pain.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem,

sometimes things fall apart apart

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people are free

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A final destination

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And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

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We'll finally find

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that our lives bring,

We can do hard

things

Yeah, we can do hard things

Yeah, we

can do

hard

things