288. Alanis Morissette On Highly Sensitive People & Empaths

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I chased desire.

I made sure I got what's mine.

I had

no choice

but to hear you.

You stayed in your case

time and again.

I thought

about

it.

You already won me over

in spite of me.

And don't be alarmed if I fall

head over feet.

And don't be surprised if I love you for all that you are.

I couldn't help it.

It's all your fault.

We did not plan that.

Honestly, I think there are like two

musicians in the world that I remember the songs to, and Alanis is one of them.

Okay.

Now, since no one is listening anymore and everyone has turned off our

cutting that, but I don't think we are.

I do not think we are.

I'm so embarrassed.

Today, when we can do hard things,

we have

the

Alanis Morissette.

Elanis Morissette is one of the most influential singer, songwriter, musicians, and artists in

the world.

Her deeply expressive music and performances have earned multiple awards, including seven Grammy Awards.

And she has sold over 75 million albums worldwide and was inducted into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame and the Canadian Songwriter Hall of Fame.

Her debut album, Jagged Little Pill, was followed by nine more eclectic and critically acclaimed albums.

Her artistic impact can also be seen via the two-time Tony Award-winning Jagged Little Pill, the Musical, which our family has seen twice or thrice.

I've seen twice.

I think I've seen it thrice.

No,

I've seen it once.

You saw it in Europe and then you saw it in Europe.

Which continues to tour globally.

This summer, Alanis will be on the triple moon tour.

So exciting with special guests, guests, Joan Jett.

That's why I hate my cell phone.

Loving you.

Such a disservice we're doing them.

And Morgan Wade.

Joan Jett and the Blackhearts.

Oh, right, right.

Uh-uh.

Joan Jett and the Morgan Wade.

And the Blackhearts and Morgan Wade.

And Glennon.

Get more info at Atlantis.com slash events.

Hello, sweet Atlantis.

How are you?

Are you too?

Hi.

Oh, my God.

I'm so excited to finally meet you.

How are you?

So nice to see you both.

I'm really well, actually.

Oh, good.

I can safely say, how are you?

Good.

I think we're wellish, too.

Do you think?

Very well, yeah.

I think we're wellish.

I'm feeling wellish.

Yeah, yeah.

And I'm feeling wellisher than usual because,

first of all, we've been huge fans just for absolutely ever, like the rest of the world.

Not just of the music of everything, of the meditation album, of the musical.

We've seen it it twice with our family.

Oh, wow.

But beside all of that, I have to tell you that I, in preparation for this interview, I started

rabbit holing.

She went down.

I'm sorry, and you're welcome.

Yes.

I feel like I've been on your path of healing.

And

I kind of thought you were like an incredible student of

people in the world.

And then

you turned into this teacher.

And I just,

I feel like you have done so much work down so many rabbit holes of your own.

Yes.

That

I have a simple goal for this next 50 minutes with you, which is to synthesize the human experience.

No, no pressure.

That's very kind.

And I think pithifying is a thing, right?

Yeah.

My main intention behind it, though, is that not everybody wants to read

as much as some of us do, us biblio peeps.

But we're all experiencing the human condition, which includes despair and suffering.

So if there can be some alleviating of that through distilling and just taking all the knowledge and the millions of models and having created some of my own over the last while, it's a service, you know, just showing up and you do it every day, you two.

It's an ethos, it's an orientation, it's a worldview.

I think of us as filters, you know, there's the course of the animating force that runs through all of us.

And I think at varying speeds, some some of us, it's coursing through really quickly, and we have to be semi-responsible for that.

And then some of us, it moves more slowly.

So, in my case, it definitely moves quickly.

And I just have to

be aware of that and take responsibility for it.

Process enough, you know, have enough people around me to process with bandy things about with.

Yeah.

God bless community.

If there is a

community of highly sensitive people,

They are our people, like everyone listening right now, right?

Yes.

Oh, good.

If you have lasted this long with this podcast, you are likely.

People ask, you know, who comes to your shows?

You know, who are my people?

And it sounds like there's an overlap in temperament, proclivity.

Our brains work highly sensitive.

A lot of empaths.

So 20 or 30% are highly sensitive.

Of that 20, 30%,

4%

statistically are empaths as well.

I did not know that.

Can you talk to us about that whole thing you just said?

Like, what is a highly sensitive person?

What was your life like before you knew that's what you were?

And just take us down this road for people who don't know what this is.

Yeah.

So I always felt something was wrong with me.

We live in a world that basically praises, as you both know already, praises extroversion, basically.

And I would look at these people who seem to let everything slide off their back, you know, just think, what do they have?

What do they know that I don't?

Because I feel everything so intensely.

And I've now been able to sort of organize it a little bit in categories.

Like there's the macro sense of what's happening in the world that is felt in my body and those of us who are empaths.

There's the immediate microcosmic interaction with spouse, family, friends, colleagues.

And then there's this whole energetic and here, all these parts that, you know,

they want my attention a lot.

So, yeah, just kind of fielding all of that and then realizing, you know, there's people like Rose Rose Tree.

There's some beautiful books that are being written about being an empath now.

And the distinctions weren't really clear for a while because I think in the neurobiology communities, the psychotherapeutic community, they poo-pooed temperament.

They didn't even want to bring it into any conversations.

And I kept going, but how could it not be taken into consideration with education for kids, with programs for adults?

How could it not be taken into consideration?

It's a big part of the epicenter of of our filter.

So I think it's becoming more normalized now.

And I've even heard in television shows, people say, well, I'm an HSP.

So yeah, I'm a four on the Enneagram.

All the self-knowledge tools that are out there in the world, I think they're so powerful for us to embrace, not just for entertainment, although it can be wildly entertaining and hilarious, but

for the self-knowledge that we know where to put ourselves.

We know how to live our purpose in a way that is sustainable for our bodies and our well-being.

Although I'm careful with the use of well-being these days, because it can be another term that we use to beat ourselves up.

So I think about wholeness, you know, I'm on the wholeness journey.

I'm not on the wellness journey, although sometimes it looks like a wellness journey.

You know, the perfectionism comes in and wants to just co-opt the whole wellness journey sometimes.

So I'm like, let's maybe not use that word.

Yeah, it sure does.

Yeah.

Okay.

So the.

You just thought something was wrong with you.

And then did you find a book about being an HSP?

Was it Elaine Aaron's?

Did she sweep into your life and say, okay, here's the four characteristics of a highly sensitive person?

And you were like, no, no, I'm not sure.

You had me at the acronym.

Someone gave me the book, the highly sensitive person book.

And when I first got it, I,

you know, I was seeing still through the lens of patriarchy and, you know, extroversion centricity.

And I didn't actually want to read it.

And then a few years later, there it was.

And I read it

in its entirety.

And I was just weeping the whole way through out of recognition.

And just thought, oh, this explains a lot.

Then I just talked about rabbit holes.

I just wanted to go more deeply and deeply and deeply.

And a lot of times I would think, well, I'm an extrovert because I love humans.

I love conversations.

I love listening.

And I've come to see that introverts and highly sensitives and empaths, we light up.

when we're around like-mindeds.

When we're not around like-mindeds, we can often be pause to check or just more observing, more sort of people watching.

So it depends on context as always.

So for those listening, the four characteristics of a highly sensitive person are the depth of processing, which means when Abby and I walk into a room and then we leave and I'm like, do you not notice the 12,000 things that just happened in that room?

And she's okay.

Abby, are you a non-HSP?

Do you identify as non-HSP?

I do.

Yeah.

Okay.

But I'm married to an HSP.

So that has been.

There's that.

Yeah.

I mean, but it's like, I think that that's really important for this conversation is because so many people listening, you may be an HSP and you may not, or you might be married to one, or you might have a child who is an HSP.

This is so important because this helps me be a better partner.

Yeah.

Beautiful.

And Elaine talks about.

you know, the pros and cons of all couplings.

And she's married to a non-HSP.

So, and I'm married to a non-HSP.

She actually mentioned, I think in the highly sensitive book, that the, or maybe the highly sensitive person in love,

she mentioned that the highest level of satisfaction, all in quotes, is two HSPs.

But my running joke about that is that two HSPs will never leave the house,

get out of their cozy clothes, or they won't stop ruminating.

You know, it's like, good luck getting out of the house with two HSPs.

I can think of worse problems, by the way.

I mean, I think an HSP with a non-HSP and a lesbian marriage.

That might be like the middle ground.

Yeah.

Because

you're both what?

Woman bodies?

We're pop processors.

We like

you're thinking women.

Yes.

Yeah.

We say it's not enough to understand each other.

We have to overstand each other.

We have to like.

Well, when people say over-communicating or overstayed, I always just think, oh, you mean communicating?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

We've normalized under-communicating so much.

But the idea too of HSP, not HSP, I think of examples like

if my husband and I are going to pick up food somewhere, you know, it's implied that he's going to go in and get the food with tons of people.

I'm going to wait in the car.

I mean, it's implied, but because you were mentioning a second ago, Glennon, so

a non-highly sensitive, not to say insensitive, no, a non-highly sensitive temperament person will walk into a room and get 50 pieces of information.

A highly sensitive person will walk into a room, especially if they're empath compounded, will walk into a room and get 500 pieces of information.

Wow.

So it goes without saying the acronym that you started laying out

that we can get flooded more easily, more quickly.

And it's not that we're overly fragile, although I love fragility.

It's that there's so much information.

And I actually have sought a lot of help around how do I calibrate the incoming influx of non-stop stimulation.

And I even share with my kids who are all HSBs.

I share with them.

When they feel flooded and I'm noticing it, I just go, wow, it's a lot of information, huh?

Because it's sensual information.

It's auditory, visual.

There's a lot of claire element that can come into empath.

Like, you know, my kids hear people a block away, you know, and so really going into the senses a lot is a big deal.

And in America, we focus on academia intellectualism and we focus on action.

We don't always focus on the senses and we don't always focus on the feelings, especially the angry, sad.

scared.

Those three

just get such a bad rep.

Like they're gorgeous.

They move worlds.

One of the interesting things to me is that when we wonder why, why is this, that 20% of people are like this, and then we find out that historically the highly sensitive person's job was to pay such close attention

that they would help the community avoid tragedy.

Everything.

Everything.

That's right.

Yeah.

Can you talk to us?

Because I actually don't know at all the difference between

we've got 20% that's highly sensitive.

I'm saying almost 30 now.

I think a lot of us are coming out of the closet.

We're coming out of the closet.

Then, how do you know if you're an empath within the HSP?

Are all empaths HSPs?

All empaths are HSPs.

Not all HSPs are empaths.

Right.

Okay, so how do you know if you're an empath?

It's a pretty good chance you know because of the level of somatic overtaking.

Like, I am somatically overcome when I I see animals, when I feel a room that is unaddressed trauma.

You know, and so much of this is none of my business, right?

So for me, the maturation process is about tuning into something.

And I come up with tricks.

Rose Rose Tree,

she's sort of one of the OG empath women.

She's got all kinds of cool tricks about some of it is just, it looks like straight how to not be codependent, you know, but really it's, it's how to be an empath and navigate so that it's a sustainable way of living where you can notice, but not be debilitated physically by it.

For me, it's the begged question that can really elucidate it for me is: whose is this?

So now we know we got our generational trauma and we've got our current traumas, we've got our planetary traumas.

And so, for me, when I'm feeling debilitated or I feel depression or a rage, I can't explain, often I'll the first question that I start with is, whose is this?

Is this my mom's?

Is this my husband's?

Is this the school's?

You know, and then just sort of rendering distinct what's going on helps.

And then also the I notice, you know, so a lot of ways that you can tell that you're in an empath merge.

It's actually called an unskilled empath merge.

And I was in it all the time where I would see someone and I would almost like teleport into their experience to the point where I'd get home at night and I couldn't even move.

One example to kind of get out of that mode is to close your eyes because staring is an indication.

So Abby, if you see Glennon super staring,

a little snip-snip, like, hey, what's going on?

How are we doing?

How do you feel?

What's going on in your body?

You know, the orientation helps visually.

What's happening in the body?

What do I notice?

Oh, I notice I'm hungry.

I notice that I'm itchy on my shoulder.

That brings us back into ourselves versus

being outwardly oriented.

That helps.

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Is it an empath thing

to actually get physically sick

about

anything?

Yes.

You go down hard when something, especially in the world macro, as you talk about, when

stuff goes off in the world macro wise yeah glennon will be in bed for three days take you out for three days yeah or you're faking when you're out of bed because you really want to be in bed and you can imagine for all of you love bugs right now who and we're going to get into this more this season hsps don't worry empaths all of this but you can imagine if you're a kid who's an hsp and you don't know you're freaking hsp and you don't know this is a whole way of being and you all you know is you are constantly overstimulated you think something's wrong with you you are always dysregulated you're looking for comfort and to self-soothe this way of being that no one

addicts what might you become yeah

an addict of everything we're seeking relief yes from the onslaught of incoming information talk to us about your experience with this because it's not a coincidence that so many of us who start out with just these tender, big, wide open hearts and eyes.

I have so many addict friends.

I mean, I'm an artist and activist, so all my friends are addicts.

And like,

they all,

they get to the point where their families and their friends, everybody finds them so insensitive because they're behaving badly.

Right.

But when you're fleshed,

yeah, but you start out as the most sensitive.

Well, self-absorption can really kind of steal all the pros of our temperaments and everything, right?

And self-absorption is the great metaphor that I I think of is when someone steps on your toe and it really hurts.

We're animals.

Our first instinct isn't to go, are you okay, person who stepped on my toe?

Our immediate instinct, animalistically, is, ah, fuck ow, right?

Get off me.

And then, oh my God.

You know, so our self-absorption is from being in pain and it not having been addressed.

And for me, one of my questions to my therapist and people I work with is,

with all this incoming information, I've had a really hard time feeling like I catch up to real time because there seems to be this unaddressed energies over here, the future vision of what's possible, the macrocosmic felt sense of what's happening in the world, the immediate stuff with my relationships.

It's too much.

And I just think, is there an end to this?

And one of the sweet pieces of information I got just this week is that when one part is dialogued with and there's some healing happening, it affects all these other other parts too, because they often come in clusters.

So these parts, they're in pain, there's some wisdom they have for us if we have that interiority muscle to dialogue with them.

It's basically the ability to kind of create space because I just kept thinking, is there going to be an arrival point where I'm not flooded?

Where I don't feel like I have to catch up?

And the answer is.

No, if I'm going with amounts of parts that want my attention.

No, because I want to be in the world.

I'm going to be exposed to all the incoming pieces of information.

It's about organizing it.

So I'm in this mode of attempting to organize it internally.

Because if I am aware of all the energies, I'm just flooded and I kind of shut down.

So to put even categorically, like I'm going to put these energies in the past.

I'll still deal with them, but they're in the past.

They're over here.

There's some disidentification, some stepping away, some space gotten rather than being completely blended and overtaken by it.

And then there's the stuff from the future.

And then in the present, there's this real

stillness and spaciousness

that allows me to function and not wait for both of these to be cleared up so that I can start living, if that makes any sense.

It does.

And you're talking a lot about like internal family systems.

It sounds like you're talking about the parts.

Yeah.

We talk a lot about that on this podcast.

And actually, I was just talking with my therapist the other day about it.

And she said something really beautiful to me.

She said, so what we're trying to do in this work, Abby, is to turn the volume down on some of the parts of you that have been screaming and that have been serving you.

So I love that visual, like just to turn that, like the volume down.

But that's interesting that you talked about your parts as in past and in future.

Yeah, because I'm trying to organize it in some way.

IFS isn't necessarily about relegating.

It's about dialoguing and embracing.

And Debbie Ford, whom I was very close with for a long time before she passed, it was, you know, for her, it was about connecting with what piece of wisdom do you have for me?

What action can I take on your behalf?

What do you need?

Is there anything else?

You know, and so it was a great sort of trailhead, to use an IFS term, a great trailhead in to loving these parts.

You know, they're trying to protect, they're trying to seek relief, they're trying to manage the unmanageable, trying to keep everything in homeostasis.

So even the ones that are super violent and cruel in there,

they're doing it for a reason.

So if we can get to that nucleus,

it can shift and make it a little more friendly in here.

And I used to just view these cruel voices as, you know, that's just part of being a human being.

But when I've moved toward them by dialoguing with them and journaling or whatever it is,

there's a deep wisdom in there and such goodwill.

You know, these parts are just doing their best to keep it together for all of us.

They're trying to make this system manageable.

And sometimes they're doing it, as you said, you know, little wildly high volume.

And Neil Donald Walsh used to say that too in the 90s.

He'd be like,

he's like, you know, I have this incredible quality, but when it's on 11, everyone hates me.

When it's on eight, everyone likes me.

It's just like, nice.

Well, and you can't turn the volume down on them until they're heard.

Like they can't, you can't turn the volume down on them.

I mean, and if you're listening and you're like, what the fuck are they talking about?

It's like you have these parts.

And just very quickly and horribly, if you're listening to this podcast, you know that I had a part of me that did not want me to eat that my anorexic self.

That I'm in just a year into recovery for now.

Nice.

And

thank you.

And well, also 35 years of recovery.

Yeah, I mean,

this is the freshest version.

Okay.

This is

the current iteration.

Yeah.

And so you wonder, like, what is this part doing?

Like, why is it telling me not to eat?

Why, why, why, why?

Turn it down, turn it down, turn it down.

No, six months in, it's saying, Glennon, your house wasn't a safe place to to indulge your appetite.

Perish.

Yeah.

Like you,

I was keeping us small and safe.

Like, that's what I'm trying to do.

I'm trying to keep you small and safe.

Like, I'm a good, I'm protecting you.

And so it's like, you have these parts that did their best job, actually did a really good job.

Like amazing job.

You survived.

Amazing job.

Like, oh my God.

Good.

Like, well done.

Thank you.

Like now we're in a different place with different rules.

The rules here are no longer that we can't grow.

So we have to slowly encourage this little precious protector to like take some risks now or like relax a little bit.

But not until, Atlantis, I spent six months, and Abby knows this, just walking by myself.

It was just a gentle walk.

I was calling it an exile walk.

And I had to like hear these voices.

Like I had to hear, let these, these voices rise and talk that were trying to protect me.

Yes.

So these are the parts.

They're all good.

There's no bad parts.

They just might be maladjusted now.

That's a good way of saying.

Okay.

Can you talk to us though?

Because we have so many that the Venn diagram of

sensitive humans and people who are in addiction or are recovering from addiction.

When you talk about the human condition, we are sensitive.

We are overstimulated.

We are noticing everything and we want to turn the volume down.

So we find, talk about protectors, talk about things that we grab.

Oh, yeah.

The managers are very, very crafty.

Yeah.

In the best way, like they'll find ways to create relief.

There's so many beautiful words for managers and I call them relief-seeking creatures.

Basically, when what is relief?

Regulation.

Right.

Exactly.

Anything that puts the eye on the prize of regulation, co-regulation, regulating is adults, doing it with our kids, doing it with our puppies, doing it with our parts.

How did you feel when you were dysregulated?

I want to talk about what we go towards when we are doing our best to regulate, but we don't have all these skills yet.

Because there's a lot of people out there who are grabbing the booze, filling the carts, doing the, who are just love bugs trying to regulate their nervous systems.

How do you feel when you're dysregulated?

And talk to us about your addiction journey.

Well,

the best thing about

drugs, alcohol, shopping, work addiction, love addiction, love addiction is gnarly.

Yeah.

Withdrawal is gnarly.

Is that it feels really, really good for the first 20 minutes and then it kills you dead.

So for me, those 20 minutes were such relief that I didn't care about dying until I became a parent.

And I was like, oh, I have to stick around.

Same.

Yeah.

I want to actually be, I'd like to live to 127 now, whereas in the past, I didn't even care.

Yeah.

So,

but in terms of the relief that it offers, it really does.

I mean, alcohol, as Byron Cady says, alcohol does its job.

It's a neutral thing, you know, shopping, fashion, beauty, glamorizing, all of it.

It's, it's all neutral in and of itself.

And how we use it becomes.

the more pointed relief-seeking measure.

And it does.

It offers relief for the first little bit, and then it ruins your life and ruins your relationships.

So when my eye goes goes on relief-seeking measures that is more relational,

you know, and some would say, Well, tequila is relational.

I'm my best self.

No, you're turning into an extrovert.

I mean, a lot of times I would drink tequila so that I could be another temperament.

And I miss her sometimes because I don't drink anymore, but I'm like, oh, she was fun.

Yeah.

But we'll find other ways to be fun.

The definition of fun changes as we get older.

That's right.

But basically, we get into a mode,

we're chasing dopamine we're chasing oxytocin we're chasing serotonin we're chasing the feel-good because there it is a birthright for us to have some semblance of joy

in our bodies you know so so we're chasing it understandably

um but these external means of satisfying something that can't be satisfied through external means, it's just a temporary blip.

But we get a glimpse of it.

We get a glimpse of what it feels like to feel feel joy or to have the serotonin go up.

So some of us who are empaths and HSPs also have a tendency to be depressed and anxious because we're not only exposed to this, all these energies, but there is a sensitivity to how the amygdala works in our brains, in our biochemistry and physiology.

I often use the metaphor that I'm a shaky poodle inside a black stallion body.

just and and they're constantly pedal break, pedal break because I have the high novelty-seeking.

I want to jump off that cliff, I want to paraglide, I have motorcycles, let's do this.

And then, also, this part that's like tremoring and shaking after I ride my motorcycle, where I have to calm down for 45 minutes.

So, wow, that I'm a shaky poodle inside of a shaky poodle.

I like, I always want to hold you and regulate.

Regulate on the outside of poodle and on the inside of the inside bubble.

Well, that makes it really easy.

No one misunderstands you and says.

No, cliff diving.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's so interesting, though, because you do have that.

I mean, my God, how do you be that dichotomy, that badass, sweaty Atlantis Morris set on stage, and then you're a shaky poodle?

You know,

therein lies the inquiry, a lifelong inquiry.

And, you know, there's some Gemini stuff going on.

There's some four on the Enneagram thing where i just i love variety i love newness i novelty seek all the time you know but then the poodle part needs the constancy predictability commitment you know in my case monogamy like there's certain things that create safety for this

and so it's up to me to make sure that i carve that out in my life to the degree that it can be done What's the hardest part about being you and parenting?

The first thing that popped to my mind was how protective I am because there's so many considerations around being in the public eye that I have to take into account and that are just so normalized for me now.

Whereas I see my kids processing certain things and my eldest son will say, you know, mom, in some ways it's cool to be your son and in other ways it's just terrible.

And I say, yeah,

that's true.

And I'm so sorry.

for the times where you're othered because of me, you know.

But then there's pros too.

There's people who come talk to you who ordinarily might not.

But for him to navigate it at a young age is really, it breaks my heart a little bit because these are sophisticated considerations.

The idea of fame and the effect it has on your life,

that's an adult process.

So for kids to be subject to it.

I just leave the door completely open for them to vent or say, well, that's cool.

Or, you know, we'll be on the road and they don't want to come to the show and people around us will be like, they just kind of skip shows.

I'm like, yes, this is very normal.

For God's sake.

Of course they skip shows.

Yes.

And I bet they're different.

I mean, we have one who wants nothing to do with anything, is very private.

And we have another who's like, went to

a soccer game when Abby couldn't go, a national team game when Abby wasn't there with her friend.

And she held up, she made and held up a huge poster that said, I am Abby Wombach's daughter so that she could get special attention.

So they're different.

The kids handle it all differently.

But temperamentally, probably quite different.

Yes, and there's no right way to do it.

You just have to feel your way through it.

Yeah.

And just process anything that comes up and stuff comes up.

You probably deal with it every day.

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What are your best

non-maladaptive strategies now for thriving as a highly sensitive person?

I'll just kind of point form it with you.

Tons of breaks.

And Elaine Aaron, that's one of the first things she recommends too, just breaks.

And for me, the breaks have to include a door click.

there's something about pin drop silence and solitude that is instantly rejuvenative that's a bit of an introvert thing the theory being that how we recharge our batteries is solitude and how an extrovert recharges their batteries is through interaction and social interaction so

for me if i could have breaks throughout the day where i can take a deep breath and just be quiet that helps sustainability body stuff anything somatic so my value system is number one is the triadic connection.

So, connection with source, other, in here, those three.

Number two is self-expression.

It could be picking an orange t-shirt.

It could be writing an email.

It could be writing a chapter, whatever it is.

And number three is body, somatic embodiment stuff.

So, I've been disassociated most of my life and mired in fantasy.

It's been a great survival strategy.

It also helps art.

But to come back in here has been a big deal.

And that's one way that I

make being an HSP empath work.

Like, okay, I can attune proprioceptively to raising my third toe, you know, and I just play with that.

I play with sensation.

I play with musculature, the skeleton, all of it, like just being able to use my imagination instead of for fantasy, use it for imagining parts of bodies and muscles that I want to have, you know.

activate this movement or so a lot of body stuff has been incredibly helpful somatic experiencing all of the juicy stuff,

silence, recharge moments,

processing.

You know, I'm not always around people who are up for processing nonstop all the time.

But when I am, it is pure joy.

Yeah.

So processing anything, you know, my son and I are both pretty intensely HSPs.

And when a movie's finished, we'll sit there.

obsessively watching the credits while all my non-HSP friends are ready to go.

They're like, get out of here.

You know, so just in moments of just letting myself slow down to move fast is a big one, too.

Because this lifestyle can really have a lot of hurry in it.

Yeah, you just said something that really brought something really big to the top for me.

And as a non-HSP person who is married to an HSP,

I'm often put in positions where I have to take some solitude because Glennon requires it.

And what I have realized is that maybe I'm not so non-HSP as I thought

because the solitude that I take, I'm now choosing to do it for myself.

And the world that we live in, it, you know, it celebrates extroversion and noise.

And noise.

And the extravagation is incessant.

And I think it's important for people who might not necessarily relate.

to all the HSP things that we've said that if you would identify as a non-HSP to

give yourself some of that solitude to see in fact, because maybe I'm just like wearing a big ass costume.

Yeah, you know, because I do feel like I am sensitive, but I don't think that I'm as highly sensitive as you.

I just had that thought and I'm like, what if I've been faking it all these years?

Because that's what was affirmed in me and how to become successful in the way that I.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And by the way, there's a lot of HSPs who don't consider themselves to be HSPs because it's not culturally allowed.

Right.

Yeah.

So that could be interesting.

I think that I've learned so much from Glennon and the way that she needs to regulate that even though I don't need to regulate in the same ways, I still need to regulate because I still get dysregulated.

Like even if you're, if you're not an HSP, we're all getting dysregulated every day.

Your kid walks in from school and they tell you a bullying story and like, I'm like.

Activation, activation.

Exactly.

So all of these things are still so applicable to even those of us that wouldn't necessarily consider themselves HSPs.

I couldn't agree more.

And my husband would be fist bumping you right now

because

you still have a nervous system.

You are still subject to dysregulation.

And so all it really means to me is that HSPs and empaths, their dysregulation, the felt sense is so fudging intense.

But Abby, what you just said is is so true because nervous systems are nervous systems.

So one might have a felt sense of hyper intensity to the point where it's debilitating.

And another might be super dysregulated on the verge of a panic attack, but they're sort of okay to some degree.

Right.

Yeah.

You consider yourself a recovering love addict and work addict.

And a few others.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

But most of them, actually.

I love that.

Yeah.

And you've had food and body stuff, right?

Yep.

I have a lot of them too.

And alcohol was hard to beat, but then easier to keep because it's like so easy to just not do it.

I mean, after 27 years of sobriety, there are things you can just cut out.

Right.

Food, love, work, trickier.

Yeah.

How do you manage recovery from love, addiction, and being married and in love?

And how do you handle being a work addict and being such a creatively and big worker?

Yes.

How, how?

I can always tell when I've jumped the shark.

So I'll be working, clickety clickety, super inspired.

And then I can feel where it shifts into like not a full-blown mania, but a white knuckle.

And so in those moments, I'll pause and go, am I done?

I've been working on this for a couple hours.

Am I, do I need a break?

Am I finished?

Versus just forget breaks and work addiction.

So Brian Robinson has been huge support.

The food conversation.

Every time I meet someone with an eating disorder, I always feel like they're the smartest people with regards to nutrients.

And, you know, it's almost like there's an extra steeliness for those of us looking at food stuff because we have to eat.

And, you know, you could avoid alcohol, not to downplay how challenging it is to stop drinking alcohol, but with food, it is part of your day-to-day.

Karen Koenig, a bunch of people who really basically saved my life, but it's an ongoing thing.

This isn't like, oh, I worked on my eating disorder for six years.

I'm good.

You know, it still comes up.

Yeah.

And I can tell with food, with work,

I can tell when I've the camera has a Dutch angle and it starts turning into something that is fear-based, that is hungry, that is angry, as opposed to just inspired.

Yeah.

I can feel it in my body.

So there's the somatic indication.

And then how to be a recovering love addict in relationship.

I mean, There's no better way to recover from love addiction than to be in a relationship where there's enough functionality and enough support from couples therapy or otherwise.

I love IFIO.

It's basically IFS

mixed in.

There's enough safety to begin with provided often by a therapist in a triangle that it can be explored in real time versus the pain of love addiction, which is the cycle keeps happening and the abandonment keeps happening.

So it's just compounding.

You got your past trauma, then you got your current ones because you're repeating the pattern.

And PM Elody just knocks it out of the park with love addiction recovery.

I mean, she's just got the seminal model and I've been following it for years and bow down to her because she gets it from the inside out.

And then eating disorder, Richard Schwartz's wife is writing an IFS informed eating disorder recovery book.

I don't, I can't remember the title right now, but very excited about that because it's its own eating food, anorexia, bulumia, recovery from it.

It's its own world.

It's hard to describe.

And there's some beautiful books out there.

I think there's one called Talking to Eating Disorders.

There's some books that can really help elucidate what it's like for someone who's on the outside watching someone with an eating disorder.

But with postpartum depression, depression in general, love addiction, and food addiction, it's a tough one to articulate unless you've experienced it.

I will always try.

I'll chase it.

I'll try to articulate it.

But

that one is, if you've been inside of this, there's a knowing

empathy i think that work addiction and love addiction are going to be the next big things that people start to identify in their lives

i think it's going to have a moment because they're like there's the things that are so celebrated the praised addiction it's called right you know because i i think about it too like

If I were staying up till four in the morning doing crystal meth or heroin, everyone would go, oh, we should maybe rally around her and check her out.

But if I said, oh, I my 19th day in a row working till 4 a.m., I would get probably some high fives.

Good work, Alanis.

So you're praised.

Yeah.

And you're dying.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're still dying.

And that's another thing that maybe helped you in childhood that maybe now doesn't anymore.

Yes.

Yes.

And also depending on our age and when how we were influenced culturally and societally at the time, I mean, the 90s, being children of the 70s, you know, that was a white-knuckle culture.

You feel scared, keep going.

You feel tired, keep going.

You feel sad, I don't care.

It was this very needless, autonomous imperative that we were all indoctrinated with.

So we're just taking that off now, too.

Wait, say more about that.

So, like, this might be, say, you were raised by a football coach who would say, you can rest when you're dead, Glennon.

Okay.

Exactly.

Okay.

Okay.

So

a white knuckle generation.

So you believe we were raised by a generation where that was the evil.

A needless.

Oh,

okay.

A needless and feminine hating.

That's still happening.

So patriarchy basically is hatred of the feminine.

You know, and the feminine is what's going to bring us all to salvation because we know how to use all these multitasking capacities and come up with solutions.

In days of old, they used to go up to women who were pre-menstrual in the villages and ask her opinion about the system or society because they knew that the woman wouldn't mince words and she'd bring a profound wisdom a profound intellect profound vision that would positively influence the villages that were going to these women for these opinions that's an example of of making the feminine and making our biochemistry and our hormones work for us you know as opposed to sort of downplaying and and

vilifying the female experience, holding it up.

Yeah.

And also also when you're saying the feminine, you're not just saying women, right?

You're saying like the energy that's inside of all of us.

What do you mean when you say the feminine?

The feminine is all the feminine qualities, feeling, intuiting,

visioning, receptivity.

So if you're going to channel some profound wisdom, you're in your feminine because you have to listen for it, listen and maybe heed.

So the action part is the beautiful masculine in all of us, which I live for, empowered masculine.

So I think of it in terms of empowered feminine, disempowered feminine, empowered masculine, disempowered masculine.

And that's also, you know, the term toxic masculinity, all of it.

It's a disempowered masculine because an empowered masculine wants to provide, serve, uphold, protect, care for, offer.

generosity, you know, and then the empowered feminine is all of those things.

Plus, you know, basically the empowered feminine

is profound leadership, taking everyone to account, not stopping until there's win-win.

There's no deal to be made here until we're done.

And I laugh with my family because I'm.

I really think the power of negotiating in any context is a powerful, it's a very feminine one because the feminine waits until everybody's winning before she moves forward.

So, so the idea, even in our living room, of, you know, you want Mexican, you want Italian, you just want a peanut butter sandwich.

Okay, so let's take that extra three minutes, which could feel like three years for some of them, to find out what the win-win is.

And we always get there.

But the feminine leadership is the leadership that takes everyone into account.

And those are the leaders I want to follow or be next to.

That's right.

How is your recovery?

Are you a 12-stepper?

I love 12-step, but I am, I mean, not on like religion and psychotherapeutic models.

And I...

I just say yes.

Like, how do you feel about this model?

Yeah, I'm definitely the toolkit woman.

Like everything's in my back pocket, everything I know anyway.

And I pull it out.

It's just an ongoing journey.

I remember asking Galoir Mate, I was like, does this end?

Is there a seminal moment where the healing is like, check, and now we party?

I think he gave me a couple different answers, probably depending on the level of humor in our interaction.

But

I think eventually he said yes.

I think what it is, it's not that we don't get dysregulated.

It's that we now have ways of managing it.

And my spiritual practice and my body practice are inextricably linked.

So, you know, things like heat, hot mat, strength training, all of that.

They're all linked in with the spiritual practice.

And so for me, to the degree that they can all be integrated, that is part of the recovery.

And the 12 steps to me is just a profoundly soulful invitation.

You know, if you go through every step, it's just a, it's a connective model.

Yeah.

Everybody.

So I'm all about that.

And what is it that we're recovering?

When you're like, when does it end?

Because look, I don't know what the hell I'm doing.

I just know I'm doing something.

And it is a lot of fucking work.

But like, I'm not sure what I'm doing, but I'm doing something

that is, it's working.

It's helping.

Yeah.

It's.

And what are you noticing?

Like, when you do the work, how do you know it's helping?

Like, what do you see?

What is going on?

Okay.

My, so one of the things that I've been so fascinated with with this past year of eating disorder recovery

is that I think what I'm recovering is like the person that I

was meant to be.

Like who you actually have.

Who I actually am.

Yeah.

And by the way, that's the best part of getting older as a woman too.

It's like, oh, I'm actually just returning.

Just returning to what was always here the whole time.

And I was chopping it off or I was denying it or I was told to hide it or I was told to have shame around it.

You know, it's like, just they're all coming home.

Yeah.

It just just feels like an emerging of, and it's something that, like, if someone said, How's your eating going?

I could tell you that, you know, this is how much weight I've gained.

And that's all, yay, great.

But

it shows up in my relationships.

Like, it shows up in how I act

without thinking.

Like, I'm just different.

And can you give me some words?

Like, like, I'm there's more space or there's more.

Yeah.

Um, I'm calmer.

Calmer.

So so more grounded yeah i trust my judgment more

i've spent my whole life being like oh i can't possibly know that i don't know how that works i don't know how that works i don't know how that i'm i'm creative so like anything else i don't i can't right and now i'm like i know i'm actually good at things i actually can understand you have access spreadsheet i can understand i can do basic math i can figure out like i can do shit i'm actually pretty good at it just give me four days.

I got this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

Slow down.

Technology.

But I'm just.

That's a quick text to somebody.

So spaciousness, groundedness, calm.

Agency.

Agency is great, Juicy.

Yeah.

Trust, self-trust.

Like I feel unafraid.

I think it's hard to be present in a moment.

or a day or a relationship if you don't know who you are and don't trust that you've got yourself.

That there's some response ability, you know, that I can actually respond and that I have access to.

And there is some spaciousness, some slowing down so that I can actually tune in to my yes or my no and all of those.

That, because it's like, I will not go, I'm not going anywhere.

I'm not going to be friends with anybody.

I'm not, I made my life so small because I don't think I understood that I could do whatever I wanted at any moment.

I'll give you an example.

I'm going to go to a get-together.

Like I said, I'm talking to my friend Liz.

She's helped me through my recovery in different ways.

I'm going to go to a thing.

She's like, what?

I'm like, I'm going to go.

I got invited to a thing.

I'm going to go to it.

Okay.

So, this is like,

I like you.

Like, whoa.

Okay.

And I say to her, so, like, what do I do if I, like, what if I'm there and I hate it?

And she's like, Glenn, you have a driver's license and a credit card.

Like, you are not stuck anywhere for the rest of your life.

You are never stuck

anywhere,

which means like if I can trust myself to decide what I want to do, when I want to do it, how I feel, how I look.

Yeah.

Then I can try things.

If I can trust myself to know that this new person that I'm meeting three days in, I'm actually not digging this person and I'm out of there.

That means I can go to coffee the first time.

I don't have to cut every experience off before I have it because I can trust myself to make decisions as I go through it.

You'll be able to respond.

Yes.

It's the ability to respond versus just be triggered, which, by the way, triggered is

understandable.

But I think the degree of healing can also be measured by the lessening of reactivity or the lessening of triggers.

It's just informational.

Not that there's anything wrong with those.

They all make sense.

But less trigger, more contemplation, more taking the information and sitting with it.

Because, you know, the tyranny of immediacy is pretty intense in culture.

Like,

you know, we need this in 60 seconds.

It's like, really, do you?

Yeah, do you need it in 60 seconds?

That too.

That too.

I think one of the most impressive things that I've witnessed from the outside

is

the growing of trust of self that you've been exploring is

so

unbelievably

seen now more in our children.

Like

this mom is now trusting herself to do shit that she wasn't normally doing, you know, for the first 10 years of some of their lives.

And now the three of them are learning how to look towards themselves to figure shit out.

Granted, it's still a work in progress, but I think that it's been one of the most revolutionary things for our children to watch you grow and the trust that you are developing inside of yourself, being of agency and having them them watch and witness you do that.

So they're like, oh, I guess I'll do this thing on my own.

And it's like, just unbelievable to watch that.

They're like, oh, she's good.

We're good.

Yes.

They're like going to do shit.

What they've decided to do in the last year.

And it can't be a coincidence.

Yeah.

One went to Berlin.

One

going to be a rock star.

What could go wrong?

The third is

the third is like doing her stuff.

Anyway, we're going to come see you on tour.

It's so exciting.

It's so exciting.

Before we got on with you, I sang an Alana song.

Is that your warm-up then?

And a Joan Jett song.

So don't worry.

We're ready for the tour.

We love you.

We're going to be listening to everything that you do.

Thank you for all of the healing work that you do to just bring it to everybody, bring all of these brilliant things to the world.

And you're just.

You're just a love.

Not just a rock star.

You are so much more than that.

And all the work you're doing is just proof.

And you do the work and it's totally obvious.

And we're just so grateful for all that you've been doing.

Thanks, Abby and Glenn.

And oh my God, I want to thank you both for just being huge avatars in the world.

I just, I just don't feel alone.

So just knowing that you two exist in the world and you're doing, you know, your profound service everywhere you show up.

Thank you both.

It's such an honor to be here chatting with you both.

We hope we get to give you a hug someday.

And love to you and your beautiful family.

Thank you.

You too.

Sending love to you each.

Thank you for having me.

Bye-bye, pod squad.

We'll see you next time, but it won't be with anybody as cool as Atlantis.

Ah, you're coming back anyway.

Yay!

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I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlisle.

I walked through fire, I came out the other side.

I chased desire,

I made sure

I got what's mine,

and I continue

to believe

that I'm the one for me.

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line

because we're adventurers, and heartbreaks don't map

a final destination,

we lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to belong.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a hard pain.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem,

sometimes

things fall apart.

And I continue to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took some time,

but I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are map.

A final destination

we lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do a hard day

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that

We might get lost, but we're okay with that.

We've stopped asking directions

in some places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives brings

We can do hard things

Yeah, we can do hard things

Yeah, we

can do hard

things