282. Your “Stuff” Personality Type: What Being a Keeper or Clearer Says About You

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Go ahead, Abby.

You welcome us.

No, I was just messing with you guys.

I was pretending to be frozen.

We didn't notice.

That was all.

That's exactly like when Abby plays hide and seek in the house, but doesn't tell anyone she's hiding.

And so suddenly comes out of somewhere annoyed.

And no one knew she was gone.

No one knew she was hiding.

But

there she is asking why no one has found her.

Well, because sometimes there's movement happening in the house.

And I'm like, oh, this is perfect time.

Like nobody will will ever figure it out.

And they never do.

And they don't.

You're correct about that.

So I go hide somewhere.

And then because nobody's seeking me, I feel sad.

And I feel like I'm missing out on everything else.

Okay, but do you understand that you have to tell people when you're going to hide if you want them to participate?

This reminds me of, I just want to tell a quick story before we jump in.

It's one of my favorite stories.

So a while ago, our youngest was playing on a soccer team and there was a keeper, a goalie, who was just adorably eccentric.

Okay.

And I don't think she'd ever really played soccer before.

So at one point during the game, and Amma was a captain on the team, so she was always trying to rally all the people and stuff.

At one point during the game, we were watching.

And how do you say our team was not good?

Okay.

You say it like that.

And suddenly the goalie starts running all the way down the field.

Just, she just leaves the goal and she just runs.

All right.

It's like she's being chased by wasps.

Okay.

We don't really know what's happening.

Nothing seems to be.

Well, she's just trying to indicate the fervor and the intensity of her running.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was intense.

It was unexpected.

It was confusing.

She runs across whatever she thought was going to happen doesn't happen.

So she just walks back to the goal and stands there.

And Amma goes and talks to her.

Later I say, babe, what did you say to the goalie and what happened?

What was that weirdness?

And Amma goes, well, I'm going to make up her name.

We'll call her Josie.

I go up to Josie and I say, hey, Josie, what happened?

What was that about?

What with the wasps and everything?

Yeah.

And Josie said, oh, yeah,

it was a trick play.

And Amma says, oh, okay.

So

the thing about trick plays is your team is supposed to know about it.

Like

it's not supposed to be a trick on us.

And Josie goes, oh,

okay.

She said, trick on the other team.

Okay.

Anyway, that I think of that story once a day.

That story is my Roman Empire.

It was a trick play.

I love Josie so much.

What are we talking about today?

I'm so excited.

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

This is an episode I've wanted to do

for low,

so many months.

This episode, we're talking about

stuff.

What kind of stuff?

You know what I'm talking about.

Stuff that you have in piles all over your house.

The stuff that's in your attic, the stuff that's in boxes,

the stuff that you swear you're gonna use at some point

but you just never have

the stuff

you find yourself

buying

why do you do it the stuff

that you have just in case

are you a discarder of stuff are you a keeper of stuff

what

does all of this say

about

us and our approach to life?

Oh, love it.

So, what does our approach to stuff

say about who we are, what we believe, and how we operate in the world?

Love.

Yes.

What is

stuff standing in for as an indicator to us?

What is it?

Is it about security?

Is it about safety?

Is it about scarcity or abundance?

Is it about what is happening with stuff?

And I've noticed this because we have very different approaches to stuff.

Yes, we do.

And I want to understand it.

Should we start by talking about?

What is your relationship to stuff, Glennon and sister and me?

I mean, I would love to hear sisters, if you could do this for me.

I think we all know sisters approach to stuff.

Maybe the people out there at the pod squad.

Oh, but we do.

Okay.

So would you mind talking about your approach to stuff?

And then would you reflect back your understanding understanding of my approach to stuff?

Because

yes.

Okay, great.

So

I

have

an appreciation

for stuff.

That's a nice way of saying it.

I

like

to treasure hunt old stuff.

I like to go into thrift stores and

resurrect

stuff.

I see the promise in stuff.

I am from the generation of go-go gadget and boxcar children, where I think that there

might be one thing that this situation definitely calls for, and I might have that in a box somewhere and be able to bring it forth.

I have clothes from high school.

I

wow.

Oh, she has tons of clothes from high school.

I

have a lot of things.

I

would contrast that with y'all's approach to stuff,

which is

seems to me to be

if you haven't worn something or used something or it doesn't bring you a great amount of joy, regardless of the theoretical utility of that item,

you

will

cleanse it out of your lives.

I feel like, you know, how sometimes people meet people and they're like, oh,

but he could be such a good guy.

He could be.

Yeah, you see the potential.

You see the potential and stuff.

It's the potential.

It's like, I believe in the potential of things and hold on to it for the potential future value.

And you just look at what the actual value is giving right now

and you

evaluate it according to that.

And so you will move things out of your home.

Yes.

Whereas I have a lot harder time moving things out of my home.

Okay.

So I value space, empty space more than stuff.

Yes.

Like I need space.

I need to look at my brain.

I would rather see an empty shelf than a shelf with some stuff I might need one day on it.

Yes.

So, what do you believe in your

thinking about stuff?

What would you call yourself?

You're a collector, a keeper.

I think collector is too strong because nothing

sets.

There's no sets.

There's, yeah, collector suggests some value that feels disingenuous in this context.

Let's give an example.

Just what I want you to think about is Pad Squad, think back to the time I tried to tell you about what my sister's closet.

She has a closet upstairs that I opened up to try to get a towel.

Okay.

This is the time when I tried to tell you that if there's ever like some sort of roving, I don't know, civil war of Smurfs, the Smurfs could stop at my sister's house and they could be shampooed and conditioned and lotioned for the entire Smurfs battalion of life because she has an entire closet that is full of every single small shampoo, small conditioner, and small lotion from every hotel that has a lot of people.

Oh, yeah, one of these.

I opened it and it felt to me like that moment in sleeping with the enemy where all of the cans are in a line.

Like I thought, oh my God, what is going to happen here?

I think sometimes you have to take one piece to really see.

So, what is that about?

Keeping 400,000.

Well,

right?

Yeah, it's not about the keeping.

I actually want to go to the moment when you're at the hotel.

Because our dad does this.

Our dad has cabinets full of the tiny creamers

from 7-Eleven because he cannot believe that they give that shit for free.

So he just sneaks a few every single day.

So if the Smurfs could go from your house after they shampoo to my dad's house for drinks

and take the little cuts.

Shots of creamers.

Yes.

Well, okay.

So this is the question.

I obviously haven't worked it out yet.

Right, right, right.

But I mean, what is our tendency,

the tendency for me to do that?

What is that about?

And then I've started thinking of it in a more realistic way because I think I started thinking of it as

like, first of all, my house isn't a mess.

Like I have, it's not like piles and piles on things.

Like I need things to be orderly, but I also have an attic full of a lot of bins

of things.

So many bins.

And so

if I'm like, hey, does someone need a wig to go with that flapper outfit on whatever?

Don't worry.

I have three.

Yeah.

We can

look at my collection, as you said.

So I think I've started to think of it as there's a a nervousness

in getting rid of things.

What is that about?

Like I go through your piles of stuff before you give it away

and I will pull things out of it because it makes me too nervous that you're giving certain things away.

And I would say that that is true.

It makes you nervous

when we give stuff away.

So what does it say to you?

Why does it make you so nervous when we are giving stuff away?

And I'm only, I'm not saying that in a judgmental way because it makes me nervous when you keep all the things.

So I know it's like a right.

I know.

Yeah.

This is what I'm trying to figure out.

I want to get to the bottom of this.

And I don't know if we can figure it all out, but I think there's some element of morality to it, some element of there is stuff that is of use,

and it feels

crazy and morally bankrupt to dispose of things that could be useful

to

anyone.

There is that kind of like

old school mentality.

Dad used to like take the nails out of boards and hammer them flat so he could reuse them.

There's that sense of that piece of it.

There's also, I feel like,

an industriousness where it's like, with a little thought, we could figure out how to matchmaker this up.

Like, occasionally, when I go through your bins, I'll make boxes and think of who could use those things and ship them off to people.

There's just like it feels is that how Dina and Allison get some of our stuff?

Sometimes I look at a person we know and they're wearing Abby's shit.

Is this how that happens?

Yes, you send our boxes.

I guess I mail other people.

You mail our shit to other people.

This is also some sort of dissemination of trauma.

I like that part of it.

I think that that part of it's really admirable because

it does take extra time and energy and thought to think through those things.

And that's something that I'm grateful that you do

because I feel a little bit like, oh, we're just like, we're going to take this to.

goodwill or wherever.

And I think that you're that way is interesting to me.

Do you think it it also has to do with your Enneagram?

Like you keep saying things that make me think what you're saying is you like to be useful.

Like somebody might need a wig and I can come and say, I have that thing.

Do you think that that's a value underneath it that you like to be useful and say I have something for this moment?

Probably, yes.

And I also don't like

waste.

Like it feels, it is so ironic, the waste, because I get that also having an attic full of shit is very clearly wasteful and moving that shit and organizing it and reallocating it and always knowing it's taking up the mental space in your head

is wasteful for the potential time that like once a year where one of those things becomes useful.

But I think the threat of waste makes me nervous.

The way you live feels more liberatory liberatory to me.

It just feels reckless.

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

But do you think, okay, so you would rather feel

responsible and industrious and

prepared for anything?

I don't know that I'd rather feel that way.

I think that's the way I'm built.

Okay, but like, we're just making choices.

I don't think you came out of the womb and was like, here's an industrious one.

And it was like, here's a reckless one.

I think we kind of make choices, right?

That then become.

So here's something.

I feel haunted by shit.

If I had an attic full of shit, okay, I started writing again recently.

And one of the things that happens when I start writing and like pulling stuff out of my subconscious and putting it on paper is that I can do that for a couple hours in the morning.

And then I start.

going through shit in our house in the afternoons like a mad person and

getting rid of things and organizing things.

And I used to point to this and say, oh, this is what writers do to avoid writing because I would rather do anything than write.

But I no longer think that that is the case because I did it this time even when I was enjoying writing, even when I was getting up and not trying to avoid it.

And so this is what I think it is.

I do not like when there is a corner in my house, a dark corner, that has stuff in it that I don't know what that stuff is.

It makes me feel haunted, just like I don't like a bunch of clutter in my subconscious that is weighing on me, is influencing my decisions and I don't even know it is subconscious clutter that if I don't pull it out, look right at it and sort it,

will affect me throughout the day.

That's what I do in writing.

I sit down and then shit comes out of my subconscious where I'm like, oh my God, that is

why I do this.

That is why I do this.

And so

I would rather decluttering.

Yes, like I would rather feel a little wasteful

and like have to buy that wig in a couple years if I need a costume than have it be haunting my subconscious.

And that is wasteful sometimes.

Like our planet, I mean, your way.

maybe is more responsible to the planet than

purging, purging, getting rid of, well, by the way, purging is an interesting word, right?

Like my therapist said to me, how is one in one of our first sessions, this round of recovery, how is how you relate to food the same as how you relate to people, to stuff, to whatever?

So it's very interesting that I cannot handle fullness

of the house, of a shelf, of a space or whatever, and feel an immediate need to purge stuff so my house doesn't feel,

I don't know,

too heavy full yeah I think it's absolutely a spiritual thing I started thinking about this like six months ago I'm trying to understand what's at the root of it and what it is

spiritually about me

which costs I count and which costs I don't count

because that moment of glee that moment where you find the thing or you have the thing I count that as like a beautiful moment where you're like, yeah,

I mean, there's videos on the internet about this where like, yes, you've saved like dad, it's usually old white men.

Yes, like, they've saved that one little

weird random piece for this one moment 20 years later.

And it's like the most joyful moment.

And so like, I don't want to take that away from you either.

I just think that there might be like some sort of middle ground.

Yes, this is the problem with it.

It's just enough to keep you going, right?

So you have once every two years, it's like, wait, you need an antique key to add to the way, give me five minutes.

And I can like run up and get the thing and bring it down.

And then that feels like it justifies the 14 other boxes that I have to move around to get that

every time my kid needs to find their winter coat.

Is any of your stuff organized up there in the attic?

Well, increasingly so, but for a long time, it did feel like a burden.

Like, for me, the analogy is packing for a trip.

You can figure out what kind of stuff person you are,

even if you know you don't have an attic full of stuff or whatever.

Is like how you're packing for a trip.

There are people who pack light,

and then they might not have everything they need.

That's me.

The weather might turn, you might not have brought that whole extra set of stuff, You might not have the pack of cards for the delay.

You might not have, you know, whatever it is, but you are carrying around

less weight.

You are lugging around less.

You are traveling lighter.

Then there's people who

pack real heavy.

And it's like any eventuality, I am prepared for.

I am set for any permutation of events that might happen, but that is not without a cost.

Like I am lugging this shit around on my back for the entirety of the trip.

It affects the entire trip.

That's right.

And that's how I feel

about stuff recently with my life.

I am lugging around this shit, whether it's mentally, spiritually, physically,

it is all here with me.

And yes, I'm prepared, but is that cost

correctly being calculated and if you're prepared because you're lugging around so much stuff so you're ready for anything that you have decided you might need

is the act of carrying around all that stuff make you less open Less ready for what?

Less able to respond to whatever's supposed to happen on that trip?

Is there an element of control versus faith, of scarcity versus abundance, of like, I don't even need to know what this trip's going to bring me.

I will decide.

I have everything right here.

So I'm going,

but

I'm already decided and it's already heavy and I'm pulling it so much.

And

is there an element of less

presence?

and wide-eyed awe and what will happen.

And then also, are people like me?

And this is literal for me, I just please don't make me check a bag.

Like, I just can we please just carry on the thing and just carry on, warrior.

Let's just do and let's not wait at that thing and let's not make it heavy.

But then, people like me often depend on somebody like you.

That's right, yeah.

Because, also, if we need some cards, it's not like my sister's back there a mile back with her six bags isn't gonna have it.

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I mean, sister, is this something about you that you want to change?

I'm very interested in it.

I want to find the middle ground that makes sense.

I'm just mostly interested in it.

Do I believe I don't have enough or I won't have enough?

Do you believe that?

Do you think you believe that?

Do you think it's scarcity?

Because I do sometimes feel like you have a, people say, people, people have an old soul, your soul experienced the depression, right?

Like

you behave as if somebody who has seen some shit and y'all can go off and have your empty attics, but I have seen some shit.

And I know it could all go to shit and I'm going to be ready.

Does it come down to not believing that the universe will provide or that you will be able to create what you need or that you will be able to have what you need?

Is it scarcity?

Because if it's fear-based and scarcity, then it is something to work with, perhaps.

That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Yeah.

That's what I really think part of it is I like old funky things.

I always think I'm going to have time

to

take those old brass.

lamps and get them rewired because they're 200 years old and I'm obsessed with them.

And also I'm, that's been 12 years.

Like, I'm not doing that.

There's a cool part about my personality.

Yes.

And then there's also the like, but then if I let go of these things, it's gone forever.

And then if I need them or want them again, I won't have them.

Can we play a little game?

Yes.

In your mind, let's just like, there's a brand new house six minute drive away in your little town.

It's completely furnished.

It's like your dream house.

You're moving in.

All you can bring is a few of the clothes that you have in your current closet, but you got to leave everything else behind.

What does it feel like to start new in a new house in a new

way?

You've got to get rid of the other stuff.

I think that actually sounds awesome.

Interesting.

There would be a a couple of things like that my dad made that I'd wanted.

Sure.

You get to bring a few sentimental items.

But

that's what makes me suspicious about it.

It's like, do I have shit or does shit have me?

That's right.

That's right.

My life force

being allocated to

the care and maintenance of my stuff or is my stuff allocated to the care and maintenance of me?

Exactly.

And to what extent does holding on to things is our attempt to make life different than it is, which is

the truth of life is that we keep moving forward, that it is always now,

that time, we can look forward to it, we can move with it, but we can't go backwards.

I sometimes feel like the attempt to hold on to old shit because of sentimentality, because of memory

is our desperate attempt to

make time so that we can go back

when we're keeping all of the stuff from our kids' childhood.

When you think about,

because I've gone through this recently, but if we're very, very lucky and we're old women and we're very lucky and our kids have grown up, and then what?

We spend a week where we're saying, and here's the attic full of shit that I saved from every single bit of your childhood.

Like

they're not going to want that.

There's like a burden of it, an untrusting of our own bodies to hold memory.

Like we have those memories.

They are inside of us.

Every single thing that our children have ever done or we have shown them or said to them or been to them is in their bodies as like body memory, good or bad.

Right.

So we keep one bin.

Would you believe that?

Yes.

I can't remember anything already.

You get the vibe.

We keep one bin of memories that has all the kids stuff in it so each each kid each kid so it takes up a little bit of real estate in the house and we know we're gonna have to go through that and we're probably gonna go through that for real one time with our kids sitting there going oh do you remember this oh do you remember this do you want this and they're gonna be like i don't want any of that

yeah yeah it's interesting they did a study of what they called keepers and discarders.

They actually didn't use the word perjures for that exact reason.

But the keepers are the people who struggle to get rid of, obviously, their kids' stuffs.

And the discarters did get rid of the stuff.

But interestingly, both

of them had the same level of guilt about their decision.

Oh.

Because

the keepers felt the cultural pressure to be organized and felt like they were failing at that.

And then the discarders felt like they had failed in their expectation to protect and preserve their kids' identities through this stuff.

So both sides were like,

I feel like shit about what I did.

And this is a distinctly probably female situation.

There's probably not a lot of men who are agonizing over whether they're keepers or discarders of their children's legacies, right?

Right.

Anyway, I think that that is a really important point to make because I also feel bad often that I haven't, I don't have scrapbooks.

I don't like do all that shit.

I do understand that.

Yeah, there's guilt either way.

I mean, I just think it's deep and I don't think people talk about it enough.

Like I was thinking about it in terms of people's

relationship to their stuff feels like it has a very spiritual, a very core

connection to them.

And it almost feels like attachment theory-ish to me.

You know how when little kids have objects, whether they're like a blankie or a stuffy or whatever, they actually call them an attachment object

because it is like the item that is used to provide comfort

to them in the absence of

their attachment connection.

And I'm like, are we

just having all of these

things and stuff and objects around us?

Why is that comforting to have that there?

I mean, it's not comforting for everybody.

Like, that's not comforting to me.

Right.

But the people who have it, but your comfort is the absence of it, which is interesting too.

You're like, get that stuff away from me.

Yeah.

Which is also

a fiction too.

You think you're safe because you don't have shit around you, which is a lie.

I think I'm safe because I have shit around me, which is also a lie.

Not like we're both faking ourselves out.

Yeah, I think that's an interesting take in terms of, I think that

my house is a little bit of an unembodied, it can be a little anorexic.

Like, I, okay, stick with me here for a minute, but I do think that there is an element of control and a purity and thinking generationally.

My house is very, you would probably say it's kind of minimalist.

There's not a lot of clutter, which is funny with these books behind us, but Abby would have it even more minimalist.

I think books is the one thing that you suck at getting rid of.

I won't do it.

They're the worst.

Right.

And I do love to be surrounded by the book.

Look at books.

Look at this.

Every room is like this, too.

But with books.

But like, it's minimalist, right?

And I think that that is

tidy and it makes my brain feel calm.

And I can't go to bed without it being like that.

And I don't want any extra stuff anywhere.

No.

I think that that makes like a good house, like an environment where everyone's going to be happy.

Our kids

don't think that's cool.

If our generation is minimalist and believes that a good environment is ordered and

a little bit rigid,

they want maximalism.

They want

plants and freaking crocheted shit everywhere and like just, you know, bottles that are old bottle vintage bottles.

Like they want the space to look like there's proof of life in it.

And

proof of life makes me nervous.

Like, oh no,

the house is supposed to look like nobody's ever been here.

Like, it's supposed to look like there's no proof of life, which I find interesting generationally in terms of control, in terms of perfection and rigidity, and perhaps Gen Z's

mistrust of our theory that we can control and perfect our way to safety.

They are

watching the planet crumble around us and watching their moms put Cheerios in plastic bins.

It's like we are

rearranging

plastic bins on the Titanic.

And the kids are like, the fucking Titanic's sinking.

So I'm glad that all of your protein bars are organized into,

you know, it's like Gen Z has looked at the world and been like, okay,

that's not working.

That's fake.

It's like the individual wellness thing.

It's like pursuit of perfection and organization and rigidity in a single body or in a single home.

Oh no, I've got my shit together.

I'm safe.

I've got every single thing organized.

I've got it all, blah, blah, blah.

As opposed to, I will work on collective liberation, as opposed to I will leave my house and see beautification and purity and all those things as a collective project as opposed to my own house.

I hear that frame of thinking.

I understand it.

And I also just want to push back a little bit in that I think that 20-something year-olds and young teenagers, I don't think that they know what they want or what they like.

And when you don't have anything that is something that you've solidly earned your money for, that you

pay the mortgage and the insurance.

Like when something is not yours, the things in your life, your stuff becomes really important to you.

And then the collecting of it feels really important.

I remember being young and I rented my first apartment and I felt like, oh my gosh, I went to rooms to go and I got an entire apartment full of rooms to go stuff.

And I felt so excited.

And I felt excited about filling it up with life, right?

And so then it became very cluttered.

And as I've grown up, I have then created a preference of living.

You might think of it as anorexic, but I think of it as preferential.

I prefer there to be less clutter.

Yeah.

Because I tried it.

I had a very cluttered existence at times.

And then by virtue of like my job for the 20 years that I played soccer, I moved so many times that my understanding of stuff became effort and work.

Yeah.

Like you look at stuff and you think that will be onerous to me.

Yes.

I think that will in the future when I have that to 10 times.

Yes.

And so there were times where I'd go and I'd be living in Buffalo, New York playing in a season and I would never put a single thing on the wall because in my mind, I'm like, oh my gosh, then I'm going to have to like.

drywall those little nail holes and then I'm going to have to paint over it.

I think a little bit more through the whole of it based on my life experience.

Whereas a younger generation, I get it's cool to be, but we also thought when we were young, like tapestries were like awesome art walls.

Lava lamps.

Like every generation has the thing, but I think the relationship with stuff does evolve over time

as you

have more relationship with your stuff.

Yeah.

But even the moving is interesting because I feel that way.

I don't want stuff.

It's like my body needs to know that it could go anytime.

Yeah.

And that's a real thing.

I know.

And I don't think that's good.

Yeah.

When you have an attic full of shit, there is a greater barrier to exit

when you have all this stuff that you would have to deal with.

If you know, oh, you give me 72 hours.

I could know where everything important to me is and have it in boxes.

It's a very different

way of traveling through the world than if you're like, oh, God, I'd need nine months to get myself out of here.

But there's beauty in that.

Like, I like to move.

I really like to move.

I like fresh new energy and all of that.

And so it is important to me.

I've probably moved every three years of my adult life.

We'll probably do the same.

Yeah.

Forever.

I don't know what it is about it.

It makes me be forced in the present.

I don't know.

So the idea of having, oh, it would take me a month or two months to go through everything everything to move makes me

feel anxious.

But how beautiful to also be so rooted in a place that you aren't thinking that way.

I mean, you're the same way with community, by the way.

Here's kind of a sad thing.

I could also move

like this, and I'm not rooted into community enough.

that it would take me that long to untangle.

That's purposeful.

I hope I'm not like that forever.

I'm working on that.

But like, you are that way with community too.

Like you are rooted into your community in like messy, tangly, real ways,

just like you are in that house.

And I think that the kids, our kids,

your kids always want what you didn't do, right?

Yeah, of course.

They love that idea.

They love the idea of

rootedness.

I also think stuff has a lot to do.

Like you have to figure this out, because this is something that I think about about a lot.

My

collecting of stuff over the years was also due to my laziness with wanting to go through it and get rid of it.

Totally.

Both of those things were very close together.

So just trying to figure out what it was.

And then now in my sobriety, I've got like a lot more time and energy.

And I like to be organized.

It's something that I do.

And having an organized home makes me feel sober, at peace.

Yeah, me too.

So trying to determine when i was going through all that cluttered time of my life a lot of it was just like i don't have the time you know and we're also talking about a very privileged conversation because so many people are like i need every single bit of the stuff that i have for various reasons so i just want to acknowledge that as well the average american house has 300 000 items in it what

300,000 items in the average American house.

We are not talking about like, this:

we're from tchotchkes and candles and towels and everything.

Wow.

A ton of people don't have what they need.

And I think the vast majority of people have a bunch of shit they also don't need.

Yeah.

We are choosing that for ourselves.

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If there is a truth to this like spiritual versus stuff thing

and you have kept a lot of stuff and you have it all stored.

Do you feel that way about

your subconscious and your past also?

Do you feel like you have a bunch of stuff stored in your memory or in yourself that you have not looked directly at and sorted?

Yes.

And does it feel kind of like a haunted attic full of bins that are up there?

I mean,

I don't know that I would say haunted,

but there is a lot that I'm like,

when am I going to put that to use or take it out?

Or look directly at it.

Yeah, I'm not scared to look directly at it.

I don't know

how it fits.

And so I think that's a very

good point.

And I think the fantasy

of there will be an era when there's time to like unbox that and look through it

emotionally, psychologically, like all the eras of our lives

and have all of this make sense

and the era when I'm really definitely going to like refinish that

bin of drifted things.

Yeah.

I mean, you sent a picture to me last month

of my $60 wedding dress that I wore when I married Craig 25 years ago.

And you were pregnant in it.

I was pregnant in it.

It was from Hex or something.

What's Hex?

It was like some old department store.

I don't know.

I was already showing.

We went to a few wedding dress shops like David's or whatever, those places.

And I looked like a pregnant version of the little thing they put on top of the cake.

It just was awful, all these dresses.

So we found this little one.

The point being,

she kept it for 25 years.

And then she texted me a picture and said, do you want this?

And I wrote back and said, no.

And then

she wrote again an hour later and said, do you think the kids are going to want this?

And I said,

okay,

but like, this is one of those, I need you to make it practical.

I need you before you ask me that to be thinking of me.

sitting with my 20, what, seven-year-old son who's and saying, sweetheart, in your little apartment with your partner, are you sure you don't want this wedding dress that I married your dad in when I was pregnant with you accidentally?

And then I divorced your dad, but do you want this wedding dress?

We just have to figure out like, what are

I know that you love me?

And we have pictures of that day.

And I know you love Craig.

And this dress means none of those things.

Right?

I know, but once it goes, there's no coming back.

And I don't think anyone wanted the dress, but I was thinking someone might want to make a pillow.

Right, right.

But, but, like, who?

Because whoever wants to make a pillow is going to be the person that goes to the thrift store and sees that thing and is like, oh, it's, do you think it's going to be me?

Do you think I'm going to make a pillow?

Do you think Chase is going to make a pillow?

I know, but this is, I know, I know.

You're right.

Because you're right.

She's just checking.

She's just checking and then done what I'm doing.

I did.

I carried that.

I carried your old two weddings ago wedding dress.

Yes.

Around what, I don't know, four moves.

Yep.

That's amazing.

And my sentimentality is so little.

Just so you know, do you know what happened to my wedding dress that I wore with Abby?

The one that I wore at the reception.

That was Amma's angel devil costume.

It's covered with fake blood.

You know, like,

but also,

one thing I will say is how we deal with stuff reflects who we are and our beliefs about the world, but it also reflects the cultural zeitgeist we're living in.

And one of the things that I think is really cool about the Gen Z maximalist vibe is that it makes sense to me.

Because when I think about why do I need the space this way, why do I need, I always say things to myself like, this is how I think best.

This is how I, whatever, I can't wake up in the morning and do my day with any clutter.

It's a lot about productivity.

And I like that Gen Z isn't thinking of their home space as the most important thing about it, is it is a perfect launching pad for productivity.

Like that idea that we should exist to be as productive as possible, they're not buying it.

So the cool thing about them is why so much crocheted shit.

Oh, I know why, because crocheting, I don't know exactly what it is, but macrame, whatever the thing is, is proof of somebody who has sat in a place and made something beautiful.

But those sorts of things, those pieces of art, those things that they love to be around are proof of someone who has not bought in to existence as productivity optimization.

Yeah.

And I think that's beautiful.

They don't think they exist

for purposes of functionality.

Yes.

They don't think their spaces should exist for purposes of being maximally functional.

They want to actually live instead of function.

And clutter as a collection of lived experiences represents a greater life force than something that can just really function really well.

I just completely disagree.

I completely, wholeheartedly just don't buy it.

I

I think it's great, but I do think

for me,

clutter makes me feel anxious.

And I actually had to learn how to be this way.

It was forced upon me.

Minimalism was forced upon me.

You guys know this story.

I don't think I've told it on the pod, though.

So

in 2004, we...

were going to play in the Olympics in Athens, Greece.

So

I was living in DC at the time and I had to move out of my apartment.

So I was like, I'm going to move my stuff into an apartment, all of the rooms to go stuff that I just mentioned a little bit ago.

I put all this stuff into a storage unit and went off to the Olympics, played, we won a gold medal, yay.

And I had already planned on moving to Los Angeles after the Olympics.

That was what I was going to do.

Pretty excited.

So

I don't know.

It's probably like six or seven months later.

My brother calls me and says, Hey, I bought a house.

You know, I didn't know like if you had any extra stuff.

I don't have a house full of stuff yet.

And I was like, oh my gosh, I'm moving to California.

All you need to do is fly down to DC,

grab whatever you want out of the storage unit.

I've got two bedroom full apartment of stuff.

I was not moving it all the way to California.

I was like starting new.

He's like, great.

So he flies in.

I fly in.

He gets a moving truck.

He's going to get all this stuff and drive it back to Rochester, New York.

Backs a truck up into the loading dock.

I'll never forget it.

And it's like one of those air-conditioned temperature-controlled places where you got to like, you put your code in to take you to the floor or whatever.

And my code isn't working.

And I'm like, this is so bizarre.

So we go to the front desk.

And I'm like, my code's not working.

I got to go, you know, where I'm in this storage unit to get my stuff.

And they're like, yeah, that's so bad timing.

We sold your unit.

I was like, What do you know?

You're going to have to find it.

It's here.

I didn't know, A, that that was a thing that could happen to begin with.

You've never seen Storage Wars?

Well, this is prior to Storage Wars.

This is 2004.

I think that maybe my storage unit probably kicked off the show.

Yeah, they were like, we found four gold medals.

Yeah.

We found.

So, sure enough, they had sold my storage unit for $85.

No.

Yes.

So evidently, what happens is they have these auctions and then they bid on these storage.

You get to look inside for one second and then you bid for whatever's in there.

$85.

My entire life that I had up until this point.

All of my journals, all of my yearbooks, all of the pictures that I had, my third place medal from the World Cup in 2003.

No.

like bikes, couches, beds, clothes, everything.

It was just gone.

And I was so,

I was just like, so devastated for myself, even though I wasn't going to even use most of the stuff because my brother was going to get the furniture part of it.

But it was like plates and silverware and random shit that I had like collected to my 24th year of life.

I was so upset

and I felt so embarrassed because I had to fly my brother home.

Like, we had to like return the truck.

Like, it was so embarrassing.

He had to now go into a little bit of debt to be able to afford some furniture for his new house.

Long story short,

it ended up being the best thing for me because

to me, and everybody has their own relationship with stuff, to me, stuff

is

heavy.

It weighs me down.

Yep.

and so i just like moved to california and of course the stuff that is important to me is actually just sentimental stuff yeah i got in touch with the person somehow 20 years ago to give me back my like pictures and they sent me wait you found the person who bought

the person and they kept four pictures but that's weird why did they keep your pictures because it was like in the bottom of a bin that they still had what they do is like at the storage unit they just toss everything right there so anything did they throw away your medals yeah

everything was gone well i bet they sold it on ebay i just also do not like that line of work to go through people's stuff that they couldn't pay for their storage unit and then to go sell it all it's so can i tell you guys a secret yeah so i do watch storage wars okay for the sole purpose that like one of these storage pickers and buyers Because a lot of these guys are like pawn shop owners.

Yeah.

And so they buy the stuff at the storage units and then they sell it at their pawn shops and i'm just like hoping one of these days i'm going to see it in their pawn shop like my metal from 2003 we won't know that if that was from them or if sister just sent it to them

i do have the abby woman bach national archives in my attic for sure literally 14 bins of cleats and shorts and everything that i have taken from your giveaway piles yeah because i'm ready to get rid of it i want to say this that i really do believe I truly believe in my bones

that every single thing that has ever been said to us or that we've experienced or every word or every touch of love, all of it is in us.

I think it becomes part of us.

Tish and I were talking the other day about how

even though she doesn't remember, oh, I know what.

She said, I can't remember a single Christmas before two years ago.

Some shit that made me want to go on a freaking rampage because of the amount of time I've put into their Christmases, right?

Yep.

And she said, well, it doesn't matter that it's an act of memory because all of that is who I am.

She said that to me.

She's like, every moment you put into those is who I am now.

It's in my actions.

It's in my things.

It's all in there.

It's not in a bin.

It's not in an album.

It's not, and those things are nice, but we don't have to necessarily keep it in stuff because it is in us.

That's good.

In them.

And that's why, like, when people lose all their shit,

it doesn't change who they are.

Right.

Because it's, we take it with us for better or worse.

That's why for me, it's so important to empty out the corners.

Because we don't.

Because I know it's all in me.

Yeah.

That's why I want to like go into the deep corners and be like, Leno, let's get it out.

Let's look at it and sort it.

and get rid of what we don't want.

That's good.

Yes.

Sorted.

I love you and I have loved this conversation.

And also, Pod Squatters, if you have thoughts about this, if you have ideas about how your approaches to stuff reflects your spirituality or our culture, I want to hear from you.

I want to learn about how people deal with stuff and what they think of it and what it means to them.

Do you have names for it?

Talk to us.

Yes.

The phone number is 747-200-5307.

All right.

So call us and tell us what's your take on stuff.

Just get rid of it, you guys.

It's the best thing that will ever happen to you.

We love you, Pods Glad.

See you next time.

Bye.

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I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle.

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