259. The Cure for Emotional Isolation

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Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things at the end of last episode,

beautiful episode, where Abby shared with us her journey into knowing and expressing hard emotions and the other half of herself.

Y'all, please just go back and listen to that episode.

It was so beautiful.

I was so proud of my wife.

At the end of that episode, Abby said, but what

is the way?

How do we find our way to self-love?

And so in this episode, we will find the way.

You are 50 minutes

from knowing the secret of life.

No, that's not going to happen.

We never have any answers, but we could not let last episode go without digging in even deeper to this

unbelievably important journey, which is figuring out how to be able to bring our full selves to our relationships, even the icky stuff, you know, the uncomfortable stuff, anger, fear, shame, our needs, our desires, our boundaries, how do we bring all of that to other people and trust that they will still want us?

And how do we allow our people to bring their full selves, even the hard stuff, and not get so threatened by it that we shut them down?

Because I think maybe that is the kernel.

That's where we stop stop loving ourselves.

Is when we bring in our early life, when we begin to experiment with bringing

our hard things to other people and we see them shut down.

Can I just add one thing?

Yes, always.

I think one of the

important things that I'm

because of my codependency

issues,

I am trying

hard to be okay

within myself

no matter what is happening out there.

So, yes, relationships are important.

Work is important.

Family is important to me, clearly.

But I am trying to become so solid and trying to love myself so much that no matter what

happens out here, this stays true.

Wow.

So you're in relationship with yourself.

Yes.

You're trying to get to the point where it doesn't even matter if someone else is shutting down or if they leave.

Yes.

When the anger, shame, fear, uncomfort, any of it comes up inside of you.

Yes.

You are saying to yourself, that's okay.

I love all of me.

Yeah.

It doesn't even matter what the outside world is doing.

Exactly.

That's some gold metal shit, Abby Wamba.

She's going for her third, people.

She's in it to win it.

This is in stark contrast to my fear of abandonment.

Yes.

And this is why this has been such a difficult journey for me, because I think

if I'm right,

I will be surprised with the outcome that nobody will leave me.

I think that my big fear is if I do show up, if I do really love myself, if I do show all of my parts to the people in my life, my fear is that they will all leave.

Right.

And I think I will be surprised that nobody does, right?

I think you're right.

So is that related, Abby?

Is that from whence the abandonment issues come?

Because if you don't have a solidity of love towards yourself and fidelity to yourself, then the other person owns it.

Yes.

Because they're the ones giving you the love and approval.

And if they leave, you are left with nothing.

That's right.

I want to be in a place that no matter what happens out there, that I know I've got me, that I know that I love me and that I am lovable.

And that if people want to leave, I mean, it's like how we talk to our kids.

Like if people don't want to be around you, perfect.

Yeah.

But it's easier said than done, right?

Like when you're in a relationship with people, when you have built a life with somebody, you want that to last.

But if I start showing you myself, I want to be in a place that you don't like, that you don't approve of, that you don't like this anger side of Abby, and you want that to change.

I want to be in a place to still stand in myself and say, no, this is who I am.

Yes.

Take it or leave it.

Yes.

But also, I'm really scared.

So I just said that.

Now I want to like take it back.

I hear, no, you're not going to be able to do that.

No, that was beautiful.

That was beautiful.

And if you, I think we need to just stick with this for a moment about like what self-abandonment is, because we're always throwing that word out there.

But actually, if you think of yourself, you think of of your insides and you think you're alone in a room when anger visits, when sadness visits, when fear visits, and you

feel that, the beginnings of that, and you just shut that down.

Nope, get out.

Nope, nope.

That is self-abandonment.

Yeah.

That's as literal.

You're teaching yourself

that

We don't do that here.

That is not acceptable.

Get it out.

I'm abandoning myself for these feelings.

So of course everybody else

will.

You haven't even learned yourself that it's okay.

So, you know, this is why we teach little ones like

sadness is just visiting.

It's okay.

Let it stay.

It has something to teach you.

Anger is just visiting.

It feels a little uncomfortable.

It's like not the best guessed, you know, it kind of like takes up a lot of space and is loud and whatever, but like it's here to teach you something.

Just let it stay till it goes.

When we teach people those lessons, that is about not self-abandoning, not rejecting half of yourself.

Because then you find yourself only bringing half of yourself to relationships, which means you are never in a relationship.

That's right.

You're not in a relationship.

That's right.

If you, if you bring, if you finally bring your full self to a relationship by saying, this thing makes me angry, I need this.

I'm really sad.

And they leave,

you never had them in the first place.

A half fake version of yourself had them.

You don't lose anyone.

You don't lose a real relationship by bringing yourself to it.

You lose a fake relationship.

And this is something that I really do feel like I learned in my first marriage and I have definitely improved upon.

So

those who are listening, don't think that I have never shown Glennon any kind of anger or disappointment or that we haven't gotten to conflict.

We conflict plenty.

And I think it's maybe the only relationship I conflict in,

literally.

And it's the relationship I feel most, A, proud of.

It's the relationship I feel most secure in.

It's the relationship that

I feel most like myself in.

And it's because I think of being able to show up and be able to conflict and be able to go through some of these things that shows you my full self.

Yeah.

And that you haven't left, you know.

It's weird to watch someone else go through this that's so close to you.

Yeah.

Because you don't see it right away.

And then suddenly you see all these changes and you're like, wait, wait, what's going on?

So

I think it's interesting when one person in a relationship starts to go through

deep, I mean, honestly, recovery.

Like we're all, we're in recovery of like some earlier self or the world.

Yeah.

And it feels like a leveling up and a sturdying, a steadying.

It is a beautiful thing.

It's hard and it messes things up in dynamics for a while.

And I know you felt fear because you were getting a lot of your identity about caring for me.

And so when I started caring for myself, that left you with some stuff identity stuff and some extra time to look at yourself, right?

I was looking in the mirror a little bit, yes.

Which is so interesting.

So then

my

recovery

gave you the steadiness and time to get into recovery.

Yeah.

I will tell you that from what I have seen, it has not just been

that you're doing conflict with me.

I have seen you tell the truth for the first time

in business meetings.

I've seen you tell the truth for the first time in your family of origin.

Have you seen, because our friend Megan, Megan Valley, who we

the pod squad knows,

she texted you and said, okay, I'm a bright sider too, but like, I just think I'm going to stay here.

Like, I don't,

she said, Can you just like let me know if anything amazing happens?

Cause it feels

a postcard from the dark side.

Yeah,

she's like, I kind of like this about me and it feels good.

And, like, I, and by the way, she's like the smartest person in the world.

So she's like, she's like, no, no, this is my true take.

She's like, as much fun as like exploring your anger and sadness and woe and shame sounds,

I think I'm cool.

But like, if anything amazing happens, let me know.

So

at this point,

what amazing things have happened that you would let Megan know?

Yeah.

I have a kind of,

I don't know how to explain this,

but I feel like my spine is sturdier.

Like I am

standing a little bit more certain.

Not that I know more about the world, but that I'm capable of seeing how I feel

and let that feeling be the thing

rather than

staying quiet or

assimilating to what everybody else thinks.

And I've had difficult conversations around it and I'm standing up for myself.

Like, and the way I kind of think about it is like,

I'm on the recess.

I'm like on the playground at recess and I'm like, that's not okay.

Like literally, that's basically what I've said in a couple conversations that I've had.

Like, that's it's not okay to me,

period.

Not what I would have done before.

Like, I understand, you know, from your perspective, blah, blah, blah.

It's just like that, that thing that happened is not okay.

That's self-love.

Like, that's not abandoning yourself.

I know.

And it feels,

it feels

different.

Like, I got off the phone or I got off the Zoom one time, and I was like, oh,

cool.

I felt stronger emotionally.

Yeah.

I have spent a whole lifetime building a physical strength.

Yeah.

I'm strong.

I can lift a lot of weight.

But I've never really worked on the strength of my emotional resilience in the shadow side of myself.

Like

feeling anger and then expressing anger.

It has to go somewhere.

Yeah.

And I have a long way to go.

I know this.

But I feel like this is just like a couple months of talking about it, thinking about it, and then putting it into practice.

I'm learning about nonviolent communication skills where it's like observing, feeling needs and requests.

We should do an episode on that.

Yeah, I think it's really, it's fascinating.

And

because that's kind of more in line with who I am anyway.

I'm not like a blow it up kind of person.

Yeah.

Like, fuck you.

I'm not going to do that.

That's, that will never be me.

And so nonviolent communication skills, I think, fall in line with more of my integrity and the way that I want to operate in the world.

And

saying what I need

with love and compassion and understanding and

empathy

for all sides, for my side and their side.

I hate the word empowering because I feel like it just undervalues what it is I'm doing.

I don't know.

Ever since I retired from playing soccer, I always felt like a half of a person and I'm filling up.

Yeah.

Filling the gaps.

Yeah.

And I don't know if that's the way to self-love or not, but I feel like it might be.

I feel like it's the direct, and it's hard.

It's like a really,

I get anxious about having these conversations.

I get nervous.

But when you do it, it's like a muscle.

And I'm, I don't know.

Yeah.

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Can I ask a question about process?

Yeah.

First of all, when you say I'm not never going to be like, fuck you, that doesn't

feel

or smell like sturdiness to me.

No.

That is like someone who is being threatened and is like, I mean, I know because it's what I do.

I like to,

but it doesn't come up from a place of sturdiness.

It comes from a place of defensiveness, which is very different.

So when you are talking about just saying what you need, that feels sturdy because you're just saying what you need.

And I'm wondering what in process in these early days, would you identify like, okay, I'm feeling something.

I'm going to go into that meeting, or I'm going to say this on the phone.

Did you have to like plan it out and get yourself emotionally prepared for that?

And if so, what were you afraid was going to happen?

Or are you at the point where you can actually just do that in the moment?

That's interesting.

It just happened.

No planning, no planning.

We were on a business call and I expressed feelings of disappointment.

I remember I was like, oh oh my, of

disappointment, of anger, frustration.

It's usually Glennon and you, sister, who are the ones that are expressing those emotions.

I was on a call with my father a couple of weeks ago, and I was able to say some really true, honest things

that

I haven't been able, nor, nor do I think anybody in my family has ever been able to do with my dad

that were really important.

And a couple other brothers were on the call.

They heard me doing this.

And that I think was kind of big for them.

You know, my dad, I know in

family systems, fathers are seen as untouchable.

And in my family, that's the way it is.

My dad does things the way he does things.

And I just said,

you know, I got to be really honest.

And that's how it starts for me.

I have to be really honest.

And that's true.

You know, and I think when I got off those calls,

kind of processing it all with Glennon, it's just like, wow, I feel like I'm really, it's like happening in real time, not like, I'm not like pre-planning these conversations.

I'm not like going over them in my head.

It literally starts with, I have to be honest.

And then it comes out.

It's like the precursor of telling how you feel.

You just say, I have to be honest.

Like, what a beautiful

guide into how to start this process for yourself.

If you find yourself really struggling to express the way you feel, because don't we all just have to be honest?

And it adds a vulnerability to what you're doing.

Like, I have learned in my recovery that when you're preparing for the moment, that there's an element of like

untruth to it.

It's like inauthenticity.

Yeah, because when you're in bed or in the shower, like planning the thing you're going to say, you're actually not in the moment with the person.

You're not hearing their full humanity.

And you're kind of doing the like preparing for takedown or preparing to protect yourself, but you're not preparing to actually communicate.

Yeah.

And so the beauty of doing that in the moment, and Pad Squad, I want you to think about like the thing in your family of origin that nobody says.

Everybody's got one.

You know, there's the thing or there's the way of being or there's the whatever that you can be with your, you could talk for 16 hours and nobody's going to say the thing.

Abby said the thing.

It was the hardest thing.

I was stunned.

And

even that thing

came in a moment because you were fully embodied.

And what happened in that moment is you had some anger and some sadness and some confusion come up in your body and you said the words, I have to be honest, I feel blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then

three days later, you find yourself this morning on like a call that's dealing with the truth of things.

Yep.

That the whole family is dealing with the truth of things for the first time.

That's the power of honest embodiment.

It can't be argued with.

No, and I think that that's where we get so stuck is we get stuck in the secrets, we get stuck in the non-saying of things, and then nobody ever gets to the truth of the matter.

And

it feels like I'm in a process that feels warm to me.

And

also,

it's hard.

Yeah.

I,

it's against nature, my nature,

or against the nature that I've built upon myself.

Like, I think my real nature is, is this way.

my true nature, but I think that I have built a life around

myself that has created like different doors that I need to go through that have complicated my life in a lot of ways.

Yeah, it's not against who you are.

This is who you are, but it is against what you've been taught.

Yes.

It's against what you've been taught because you've been taught, like so many of us, to not rock the boat, to just assimilate, to make everybody else feel comfortable, to choose inner conflict over outer conflict.

So you're going against what

you're training and your conditioning.

And so we have talked about that feeling as a growing pain.

It's the right kind of heart.

Yeah.

Right.

It says, you're not going against who you are.

You're creating new pathways in your brain to fight your conditioning and return to who you are.

I'm trying so hard

to like erase those prior paths that I have drudged, those like ski slopes in my brain of the way that I respond to things, the way that I think about things.

And it is not easy.

Yeah.

I feel like I've run out of the eraser and I need a new pencil.

The thing about therapy that I think a lot of people relate to is like, I just want to be fixed.

I just, I have to accept that that isn't the goal.

No, it sucks.

It sucks so bad.

Yeah.

And I feel tired.

I've actually asked my therapist, I want an ROI on the marginal improvements.

Like I'm talking like, if we keep doing that, this, can I make like a 60% improvement?

I am in, but if we're going to do all this and it's just going to be like a 5%, I'm not real sure that I'm in this way.

How many times have you, have you gone into therapy asking them to tell you things?

That's the thing that I'm like most frustrated because I ask questions

and they just send me more questions.

Okay.

I think we should do an episode on how to find a therapist, how to know if your therapist's good,

what we should be doing in therapy.

Like, we know something's happening there, but I don't feel like we have enough information.

Yeah, is the ROI 5% or is

therapy 50%?

I've had bad, it's dangerous because you get in there and you got to just trust that what they're saying to you.

I don't know.

Don't you think we should do an episode?

And then you end up being like, well, if I think all my therapists are bad, is that just evidence that I need more therapy than your average pair?

Like, we don't know.

It's really circular.

We don't know.

I think something is so interesting what you just said, Abby, about

the power of those words to you when you say, I need to be honest.

It reminds me of the lying episode we did that said that the one thing that they have identified that actually increases the likelihood that other people will be honest with you is if you say, I need you to say to me that you are going to be honest to me.

And then you have them repeat it back because it creates this kind of social contract.

And you are creating a social contract with yourself.

You are affirming to yourself with your words, with your spoken words, I just need to be honest.

And it's like triggering this response to you where you're like,

that means now I say my honest truth after that.

Yes.

Yeah.

And it probably helps the other person that's listening because I bet on some kind of subconscious level, it makes the person think, oh, okay, because this isn't about me.

This is like her practice.

This is what she does to take care of herself, which is true.

Yeah, which is true.

You don't need the other person to actually change anything.

You just, in order to stay into your own integrity, have to say the thing.

You have to not swallow it.

You have to get it out.

And in fact, if you believe that the other person is going to have any kind of reaction, sane or constructive or reasonable in response to your honesty, then you are setting yourself up for disaster.

Right.

The only thing you can control is your ability to be in integrity with the social contract with yourself.

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We had some follow-ups.

Let's go to some voicemails.

Let's hear from Katie.

Hi, Glennon, Abby, and sister.

This is Katie.

And I'm wondering if you guys could talk about

toxic positivity.

I want to know your thoughts on it.

I want you to agree with me that you're over it.

Because I'm sick of everyone telling me to just be positive.

Let's think about this positively.

No, I'm angry and mad, and I want to be angry and mad.

Or I'm sad or I'm overwhelmed.

Don't try and make me positive.

Toxic positivity.

What are your thoughts on it?

Well, Katie, you are my people.

I feel you.

I understand you.

I just love this question in context to all we've been talking about.

Because

you know, toxic positivity is, it's like the bullying by happy people but i think that's what we think of it but i don't think that's what it is i think it's fear-based i think it's like people who have to when you tell them something sad or something hard and they immediately tell you to look on the bright side or to reframe or to whatever i think it kind of reveals a fear of discomfort like kind of what you would have had abby what you described in the last episode of your fear that if conflict or sadness exists that that is a threat yeah that i'm not okay.

And that's annoying to me.

I agree with Katie.

Like, I really don't like to be bright-sided.

It makes me feel unheard and unseen and controlled.

I want to get to the bright side myself.

I feel like hope and positivity should be in the person's power who is reporting the problem.

I'll get there.

As long as I get some room, like I'll get there, but I don't want to be shoved towards it by someone else.

I do want to describe an interesting situation that I have seen play out with Abby and me because in our relationship, I would be the Debbie Downer and Abby would be the positive Patty.

That's the dynamic we have.

I come with like the challenge or the problem or the fear or the anger or the sadness or the worry or the stress.

And Abby comes in with the.

It's okay.

Have you thought of it this way?

No, that person's actually just doing this.

It's all going to be fine.

They're just doing their best.

You know, that thing.

Recently, something happened since Abby's been in therapy and has been working on her anger and her allowing in her body

and coming out of her mouth sadness and stress and anger and worry, admitting she has it and living with it and surviving it.

I will tell you that we had a situation with one of our kids that was

hard.

And

Abby became so upset about it and angry about it and not at our kid, but at the world and

that I

felt

peaceful.

I was like, wait, why am I okay?

Like I felt,

I heard myself saying,

y'all, the words were coming out of my mouth like,

I think it's going to be okay.

And I was like, wait, who the fuck just said that?

Like, what?

I think it's going to be okay.

I don't think that that was meant that way.

The point is I found myself feeling peaceful.

A couple of weeks later, we were in a business meeting where an upsetting thing happened.

And before I could respond and stand up for our team, Abby jumped in

and said, I don't like, I'm making this up, but said something like, I don't trust what you just said, I don't feel seen, just started saying all of these things.

And I

found myself,

whereas I had just, you know, felt so much fear and anger and protection.

I felt myself in my body, not making it up, not cerebral, nothing.

I felt myself feeling positively about the situation.

I felt myself feeling like, actually,

like, I'm so glad Abby said that.

And I'm so glad that we're having the situation, but I can suddenly see the other person's side.

What I'm saying is, I think that sometimes when we're in a relationship or a dynamic with someone, we extreme ourselves.

Polarization.

We polarize.

So I know that Abby's always going to bright side.

So I have to be on guard.

So I have to be upset.

So I have to care.

I have to bring the anger to the family.

I have to be, because I'm going to be the only one that's carrying it.

But when I feel my partner

be worried, when I feel my partner be angry, when I feel my partner be protective, then I experience that as, oh,

my partner's carrying half of this.

So I get to have the other half of the experience too.

I get to have some of the peace.

I get to have some of the positivity.

I get to have, and that feels amazing.

Yeah.

And it feels beautiful and it feels comforting and light.

And like

that's what partnership should be: that we're both having the full human experience and talking about it back and forth.

Not that one of us is carrying one side and the other is carrying the other side.

I'll just say this from the perspective that I sit in,

talking about the kid drama,

it allowed me to

be more of a

main character in the life of our family.

Yes, yes, because I was harboring the heartbreak or disappointment with my kid.

And I think that that is a really important element when you are in partnership with somebody, when you do have these polarizing ways and roles of being in your family, that limits that one person from experiencing

the true life of the family and the ecosystem.

And I think that that has been complete.

I have now

in my mind,

it's bizarre.

I don't know why this happened

or how this is happening in my body, but now I feel more attached to my kid

because I was able to, with you,

express my anger about it because it's a vulnerability to be angry.

You were suffering suffering with them.

Yes.

And that's like, oh, shit, I'm fucking all in.

Like, all of my chips are on the table here.

And I don't mean to generalize.

I just think it might be very true for a lot of men and fathers in the world that they

want to bright side things because they don't want the drama.

And then their kids get into some and then they don't get upset about it because somebody's got to level that playing field inside the dynamic of the mother-father partner relationship.

Or because fear is vulnerable.

So they can't, they're not allowed to to express fear exactly.

But, like, what I was able to do, like, and my kid knows how invested I am in them.

Yes,

that's a bonding experience, yes, that I didn't realize would happen from showcasing my anger around a certain situation.

The bright sider doesn't have the depth of relationship with people.

That's interesting,

and also, a polarized partnership,

I believe, does not

have

emotional intimacy.

Because if you are the one bringing the angst, which is really a reflection of your deep fears and yearnings

and desires in the world that you are afraid are going to get crushed out in the world, so

whatever those anxieties, worries, fears are, and you continuously bring them, and what you get, which is the natural reaction, is the other person's

calm, collected assurances that none of that is going to happen, then you experience yourself as the

not having a meeting place

for those

deep emotions

because you are the only one in the relationship that is having them, that is expressing them, when in fact, that's usually not the case.

But because you're so polarized, you're no longer able to meet in a space where you can exchange

those emotions.

There's no meeting place.

There's no meeting place.

The price that both people are paying, there's the price of the caring of it all,

the heaviness of carrying it all of the negative one.

And then there's the disconnect, the untetheredness, the unbeing there.

It's lonely.

But it's lonely as shit.

That's what I'm saying.

Lonely for both.

The price that both pay

is that they're both lonely because they're both.

I mean, think of a seesaw.

Think of a seesaw.

When you go up, I go down.

When you go up, I go down.

We are never on the same plane.

And if we're never on the same plane, I am always on this plane alone.

And you will never meet me here and I will never be able to meet you there.

Right.

And I feel like

what I felt most when you started entering those situations with some intensity

was

I can feel it in my body how I like looked at you when you were responding about the kid thing or even in that meeting.

Like I felt unlonely.

I felt like, oh my God, there's like some realm of love because this is all love.

Like the intensity of, oh my God, like it's love.

Like

I could see in your face and in your voice that you were visiting that place

that I live in.

And that made me feel so unlonely.

It's so ironic, y'all, because here you have this fear that if you express anger, I'm going to leave.

And I'm watching you express your intense emotions for the first time.

And I have never felt less lonely.

I have never felt

like

I had a real partner before in my entire life.

than I have felt in the last few months.

It's the opposite of what you feared would happen has been happening.

And it's a beautiful thing because I went into therapy for my recovery because I wanted to feel more joy,

got the negativity down, right?

Like I wanted to feel more lightness.

I wanted to feel more ease.

I wanted to feel this other half of being human.

And then I started feeling that part.

And then you decided that you wanted to feel the dark part,

the heaviness part.

And then it's like now we're both getting to have the full human experience as two full human beings.

And that's why we feel in full partnership for the first time.

Yeah.

Shit.

I think that I know more than anyone on this entire planet that having the right therapist to talk to can make a life-changing difference.

That's why I think ALMA is so cool.

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You can use their directory to search for someone who specializes in the areas that matter most to you, whether that's anxiety, relationships, or anything else.

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You know, I love that.

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That's hello A L M A dot com/slash hard things.

I'm I'm just feeling

desperate to hear from a pod squatter.

Let's hear from Deanna.

This is Deanna, and I'm really nervous, and I don't know why.

I wanted to share a little story with you.

I'm 52 and have just become an empty nester.

I have a 22, 20, and 18-year-old.

My 18-year-old just left for college.

And this happened a couple weeks ago when I had to drop them off.

And I woke up on a Sunday and I'm trying to just do my hard thing

and I thought okay I'm just gonna go to Trader Joe's and try to resume my normal routine and I get in my Trader Joe's and I'm going down the aisle and I'm looking at all of the groceries that I have bought this kit of mine for years

and I am just devastated so I'm trying to hold it together and I'm going through each aisle and as I go down each aisle it's getting heavier this cart is getting heavier to push and I'm just really trying to hold it together but i'm just devastated because i'm looking at these little cereal bars and i'm looking at his hash grounds and his lemonade oh just killed me so i get to the check stand

and this poor checker she looks at me and she says hi ma'am how are you and i just broke down i just completely broke down totally started crying this poor woman she looks at me and she's like do you need a hug

and i proceed to tell her that no i just dropped off my last kid and I'm all alone, and I'm so sad.

And she just started talking to me, and I couldn't stop crying.

I was so embarrassed.

And I'm not a crier, but I just couldn't.

I don't know.

I just couldn't stop crying.

And so we get toward the end.

And she looks at me and she goes,

you're a goddamn Tawanda.

And I looked at her and went, oh my God, we can do hard things.

And we high-fived each other.

At that moment,

I felt so seen.

I felt so connected.

I immediately stopped crying.

She looks at me and she's like, You're feeling better.

And I was like, I actually am because I'm a goddamn cheetah and I'm going to get through this.

So thank you.

Love you guys so much.

Listen to you guys like all the time.

I relate to everything you guys talk about.

Thank you so much for doing everything you do.

It takes so much courage and vulnerability to share what you share.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Hope you guys have a good day.

Deanna.

Deanna, oh my God.

She just,

she just, Deanna, it's like the first episode that we did with Abby.

Deanna was at the cash register search.

She was like, I just got to be honest.

I just got to be honest.

It's been tough.

For folks who don't know, you have to go back and listen to the Tawanda episode that we did, which was clearly a shorthand exchange

between those two people who had that moment together.

And then they had the we can do hard things.

That was the Tig and Stephanie episode.

And she said, she's a goddamn cheetah.

And I really do think about like that metaphor from Untamed and, you know, this idea of.

these cages that we put ourselves in.

One cage being that we don't get to feel the full range of human emotion.

The cage is positivity.

The cage is smile, be grateful, be, you know,

don't express your needs, don't express your anger.

And that is taming.

That is taming.

And so in that moment, Deanna was actually

untaming herself.

She was allowing the expression of something other than robotic happiness.

And that led to a beautiful moment of connection for all of us, for now, for millions of people.

Oh, man.

I

don't even want to think about what it's going to be like when they all go to college or go away.

Here she goes, y'all.

We better stop now because I'm going to feel some feelings again.

I just got here with them.

I know.

Fuck.

I know.

But you know what?

I recently saw somebody say we're not calling it empty nesters.

Like, I trained them to fly.

Like, now I was a flying trainer.

A flight instructor?

Yeah.

I was like, I completed the flight instructions.

Well, that's what I don't understand

about

positivity as like

a concept.

It just feels so incredibly arbitrary.

Do people mean cheerful?

Because

what is more positive in terms of like life-affirming and real

than to acknowledge a life's work of raising someone up and the associations of that human and your caregiving with the cereal bars and the recognition that they're in a different chapter and so are you.

What is not positive about that?

I mean, that is a grand, gorgeous, huge emotion.

that of course is accompanied by massive emotional response, but it doesn't strike me as not positive.

I feel like sometimes when people say positive,

when what they mean is non-disruptive.

Yeah.

I feel like what they think that's mean is non-disruptive.

It doesn't non-confronting of me and myself.

By the way, or just non-confrontive of like the robotic existence that we're all supposed to.

So we none of us touch the ache too high.

This is all fine.

Whatever's happening here is all fine.

It's not positivity because if I bound through the grocery store with Tigger-like joy,

because I'm on drugs, I'm so happy.

I am so full of bouncy ecstasy.

I am a whirling dervish of joy.

I'm going to get as many bad looks as I would have were I a

depressed Deanna, right?

Yeah.

People don't mean be positive.

They mean don't make me feel anything right now.

I am just trying to survive and stay in the robotic world where I don't know we're all gonna die and we're all gonna lose each other we love and we're on a planet that's spinning through the cosmos and none of us knows what the fuck is going on.

That's what they mean.

They mean be practical.

We're just trying to get through the day.

We don't have time for extraneous emotions in either direction.

That's what people mean.

They don't mean be positive.

They mean be neutral.

Right.

Right.

And with that,

we promise you, Pod Squad, we will never be neutral.

We will see you back here next time.

Love you.

Bye.

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