238. How to De-Stress: Relaxation Intervention for Amanda (and You)!

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Wow.

I am so excited to say welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

Welcome back back.

Welcome back.

You're always welcome back, but this is a backpack.

Yeah, because we took a little break for a few weeks.

We were on a break.

We were on a break.

We wanted to,

I don't know, just rest and take a breather.

We also didn't know that podcasts were supposed to have seasons.

So I think our first season was 250 episodes.

So

ish.

So here we are back with you.

I'm feeling really grateful.

And I'm also feeling grateful that we took the rest.

That felt good.

I'm feeling very, very grateful for the

tens of thousands of voicemails and emails and comments of suggesting guests and topics.

We have been culling through them.

Y'all have amazing ideas and insights.

And thank you for co-creating this podcast with us by giving us all of those.

We have been working on those during this break and we have really exciting things coming up thanks to your ideas.

So thank you so much.

Yeah, and you know what it makes me think when I read all the Pod Squatters ideas of what we need next and what we need to talk about next and who we need to have on?

It solidifies the idea for me that what we're doing with this podcast is kind of like journeying together.

Because if you all could see the list of suggestions that you have made to us on people and topics, compared to the list that we have internally brainstormed of people we need and topics we need, they are almost identical.

It's amazing.

Yeah, there's like an 85% overlap between what we have in process, the conversations we were already initiating and what was recommended.

It's wild.

It's like, oh, wait, we're aligned.

Yeah.

And it's like, it's like when you're journeying together, you all think of the same supplies that you need on the journey because you're all facing the same thing.

And so your lists are similar.

And so it's, it really made me feel like, oh my God, we are like all walking together this life.

So this season is going to be awesome.

And one of the things that we think about a lot is that we have topics we're all journeying together on.

But what has become clear to us is that because of this work we're doing, we are all three, Abby, me, and sister, sort of working on something different in our own personal life each month, each season.

We think of them as like tent poles, right?

So like last season for me, it was very much about eating disorder recovery and embodiment.

And I'm still there and working on that and what that means in my life.

And Abby, you talked about your kind of digging in more to like your shadow side.

Yeah, I mean, it's been really interesting because I've been way more vocal with you around

recently around when I'm feeling upset.

I know.

Yeah.

Good for you.

And how much into therapy are you right now?

I'm like, I guess four weeks in now.

But actually something happened the other day.

We were on a little family vacation and I'm like the person in our family that deals with the organization of the trips and getting us to where we need to go and kind of the logistical thing.

And so we were having this conversation.

And I have never really broken down in front of our kids before of like overwhelm.

I just handle it.

I have trained that.

I have trained overwhelm out of me.

Yeah, I bet you have.

And

this thing was happening where they were thinking about kind of re-adjusting the plans of what I had already spent lots of time doing and planning and spending money on.

And I just like put my hand in my, my, my face and my hand.

And Tish goes, Are you going to cry?

And I was like, no, but I started talking and my voice started cracking.

I was like,

I was like, you guys just don't understand how much effort and work goes into planning around this family.

And so switching plans is not easy.

And so she was like, I'm so sorry, you know, like right away.

And it was like, really cool that I was able to say it out loud.

I don't know.

It was amazing.

So beautiful and important.

I was wishing it for every pod squatter.

She was like, I will show you how I feel about this as a parent and how

hard it is.

And I will not act like it's not hard.

And

it was like every bit of entitlement sucked away from the table.

It was like, oh, my mom's a human being, too.

It was so important and so good.

And you never would have done it a year ago.

So, we're going to be exploring Abby's

delving into the uncomfortable feelings.

And for sister, we want to set up this episode today.

How would you do that?

What's your temp goal for the season?

My temp pole is

getting more in touch with my

trying

to

access

ease

and

in terms of not

being afraid of ease and peace as indicia of

not

hustling hard enough, but being important

parts of the human experience that I am lacking as opposed to, you know, like evidence of me killing it, not having those.

I'm trying to see not having those as evidence that I am depriving myself of the human

condition.

Yeah.

So to that end, Pod Squad, you should know that we gave sister an assignment.

But

what happened was he gave sister a relaxation assignment and she couldn't or didn't or refused to do it.

And that is what sets up today's episode.

We know you're going to have feelings about today.

So grateful for sister's vulnerability.

And maybe some of you are on this similar journey and we want to hear from you.

Let's go.

And to be loved, we need to belong.

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Today is going to be really interesting, Pod Squad, because we don't know what the hell is going to happen.

As opposed to all the other days where we know exactly what's right.

Right.

Well, we usually have more of an idea, but we need to tell you about a recent experiment gone.

Well, the word is awry.

I will tell you that for the last 30 years, I have been reading that word as owry

because I've never heard anyone say it out loud.

I just really thought in books, every time something went askew, it went owry.

And I just figured out that that word is actually awry.

You've never heard someone say something's gone awry?

I have.

And I thought that was a word.

And I also thought that there was a word that was ourri.

What's the other word that we've just recently come across that you've been pronouncing wrong in your head all these years?

Okay, so

sword.

Sword.

That's a weird one.

Sword.

I just feel like sword is a very commonplace word.

No.

She was reading to us the other day.

I'm crying.

And she just said, sword.

And our friend Alex, who's sitting with us, she interrupted her.

She said, I'm sorry.

Did you say sword?

Yes.

And she said, what?

And had no idea it was sword.

I love you so much.

Okay.

Just before we jump into this very important podcast, since you did that, I'm going to do this.

I'm doing it again.

I may have told the story in the beginning.

It's worth it to tell it again.

Yeah.

We're driving down the street with the girls in the back seat.

One of the girls says loudly, Oh my gosh, look at that cute red wheelbarrow.

And Abby bursts out laughing, like she's laughing right now.

And I'm like, What's so funny?

And she says,

Did you hear what she said?

She said, Wheelbarrow.

It is a funny word.

It is.

And I said,

why is that funny?

And she said, because it's wheelbarrow.

It's a wheelbarrow.

And then everybody proceeded to laugh out loud at me.

But in my defense.

Yes.

It makes your defense.

It makes way more sense to be a wheelbarrow.

Then a wheelbarrow.

You fill up a barrel and you wheel it away.

That's what are you going to do, right?

You fill up a barrel?

What's a barrel?

No barrow has ever been filled.

It's one of those ones that is correct, but at a deeper level, incorrect.

I know.

Yeah.

That's the difference between commonsensical people and smart people.

Well, it's also that story just kills me too, because it's like the proof of Abby's motherhood evolution, because the fact that she was hysterically laughing and mocking the child.

No, I mean, karma real quick just circled back because the girls were dying and they never let me forget it this is a common story that goes around the dinner table once a month yeah look at the wheelbarrow i still live and die by it it's wheelbarrow no i can't remember which one is it it's wheelbarrow it's wheelbarrow

okay it's barrow okay rhymes rhymes with sparrow all right so rhymes with sword

I just want to say, I like it, sword, because it makes me think of like words.

You can use words as any anyway okay uh sword feels like sexual or something sword it's like a provocation okay

it feels almost like what you do with a sword

swash buckling sword winnebago

all right oh that reminds me winnebago we got that wrong we did an episode

with

Michelle Zonner and she was talking about words that she loves apropos of maybe this discussion.

And she was talking about how sheetcake and Winnebago invoke this like visceral reaction in her.

Thank you to the pod squad who wrote into us and said that Winnebago is actually an indigenous word for a group of

Indigenous folks who are the Winnebago.

So we

did not know that and we failed to identify that.

So thank you for illuminating illuminating us.

Cool.

Okay.

Here's what we're going to do today.

Today, we have our second

episode that wasn't.

You might remember the first episode that wasn't.

It was episode 147, and we had brought a guest on, and the guest behaved like an asshole to someone on our team.

And so we canceled it.

in real time.

And then the internet tried to figure out who it was forever.

And they still are trying to figure out who it was.

Will we announce who it was?

We will not.

I can't imagine ever doing that.

We are not into publicly shaming people

usually.

Unless it's me, apparently.

Unless it's sister, because today is our second episode that wasn't.

Because Pod Squad, here's what happened.

A couple months ago, we decided that we wanted to do an episode about relaxation and Amanda.

Okay.

Abby came up with a bunch of ideas to

help sister relax.

And they were like assignments.

They were things such as

go for a walk.

Go for a walk without headphones.

One hour before going to sleep, figure out the next day's schedule.

When waking up, try and think about getting 30 minutes of activity in your day.

You're just going to omit the one where she told me to put my entire head into an ice bucket for as long as I can hold my back.

That one, you're like, go for a walk, plan your schedule, immerse yourself bodily in an iceberg.

Okay, well, she was trying to give you some different ideas.

And actually, that is really helpful.

All right.

So one of them was a bit of like a cold plungy situation, but just to put her head in your face.

Now, when you say it this way, it sounds weird, but yes.

Turn on two songs and dance to them.

We even picked songs for you.

We picked a energetic song like You Ought to Know by Alanis Morissette to get some rage out.

We picked Easy on Me by Adele to get some self-compassion in.

We thought that was great.

We scheduled a 30-minute relaxation time after lunch every day.

Abby said, you can sleep.

You can just lay there doing nothing, no scrolling, no email, do nothing.

And she said, if 30 minutes is too long, just do five minutes.

Then she suggested a short meditation, some short breath work.

Then she said, no working after dinner.

That was another idea.

Really,

she said afterwards, please note from this list, one thing that is important is that multitasking isn't real.

So you can't do these things while also doing something else.

Okay, she tried to protect you from yourself there.

Now, because she knows you, Also, she added another little thing at the end that said that you could score yourself each day on how well you relaxed because she knows that you like to have some feedback.

I mean, no, not feedback, like some goals.

Hold on, it wasn't about how well she did, it was how she felt.

So, that was okay.

That was my idea to be able to track in the couple of weeks that she does this if, in fact, this help is helpful or not.

Okay.

So, pod squad, in short,

Abby sent her a list of possible modes of relaxation.

I will tell you that the reason we did this is because a dynamic

in our

lives,

work, home,

relationship, is that Abby and I worry that sister is not relaxing enough.

Now, I, through much therapy, am taking responsibility for my feelings about it.

I'm not saying you don't relax enough.

I'm saying I tend to worry that you're not relaxing enough.

Okay.

So that doesn't mean that's your business.

That's my business.

Yeah, it really is.

Okay.

And also, I just want to side note,

all of the list of nine possible things that sister could do, I'd said, please choose three to four of these to incorporate into your day for two weeks.

Right.

And note, some of them were like, just do nothing for five minutes.

Like, okay, they are not

extreme

sport resting.

It's not like a seven-day silent retreat.

Like, go for a walk, go for whatever.

So, pod squad, today was the day we were to get together and discuss with you how it went.

Yeah, okay, today was the report on how it went.

So, yesterday, we come to the meeting where we prepare for what's going to happen today.

And sister says,

I didn't do any of it.

No, to be fair, I said, I have allotted today to do my relaxation homework.

Okay, oh my God,

you're going to cram it all in one day.

I fucking love you.

All right.

And by the way, I want to know how many things were on your list because that's bullshit.

I know you did not black out the whole day for relaxing.

I know you've never done that in your life.

So lies, lies, and more lies.

You sit on a third of lies.

Okay?

Now, Pod Squad, why this is interesting is because it is the first time.

maybe since second grade that sister has been unprepared.

So we ask questions.

We say, why?

Why?

Why did you refuse to do the homework?

Here we are, Clad Squad.

What I want you to know

is that today we are going to try to get to the thing beneath the thing.

Now you might say to yourself, well, you told her to do something that she didn't want to do.

No,

you would be incorrect.

When we proposed this idea,

Sister was very

open to it.

She thought that's a good idea.

Well, I will say you said that will be funny, and you are right.

It is funny.

Maybe this is what you meant.

Did you know you weren't going to do it?

I don't know.

I don't remember exactly the same level of engagement that you remember in my response to this idea.

I think maybe I was like, yeah, that would be funny.

And look.

All right.

So you didn't do it.

All right.

All right.

I have some questions for you.

Bet you do.

Okay.

Do you

feel as if

rest and relaxation, and we'll get to what the hell that means, because maybe our problem is semantics.

It might mean something different to everyone.

I think that's important.

Do you feel like it's something that is missing in your life

that

you want to make room for?

Or is this only a codependent problem that your sister and other sister are identifying?

I think I am missing a key piece of being a human.

So, yes, I think part of my other problems in life are stemming from my missing

a key piece of being a human, which is like

time

that is not

preallocated

to identified priorities.

What are the other problems you're talking about?

So I'm just thinking of something that happened last week.

I usually wait until it's

without a doubt, too much to be like, it's too much.

So I wait until I'm at a 20 to be like, oh, okay, too much.

And I don't build it in as a process to avoid that happening so i remember one time my therapist like 10 years ago was like if life is parallel lines right you are always operating

on

right up to the upper limit and right up to the lower limit like emotionally

capacity everything and so any little thing pushes you outside of the margins and just like having zero margin margin in.

And I think that I do do that.

I think I

maximize to the margins as part of my regular life.

And so I'm like, I can do that.

I can do that.

That puts me right within my margin, right up to the end.

And so anything

that is extra just spills over.

And so we had just hosted three events at our house in a row for like all the

Sunday night, then the Friday night, then the Saturday night.

And then Sunday,

the lacrosse girls party, the baseball party, the other baseball team party, the whatever.

So it was just two weekends that were not weekends.

And then the week is so crazy.

And so Sunday, I was like, oh, I can feel myself overextended right now.

And so we need to have a couple hours of nothingness.

And so I preserved that couple hours of nothingness.

And the four of us were just kind of hanging out for those two hours because I allocated it for that because I'm like, I need two hours of nothingness.

And we were just playing around

and it was so

nice.

And I felt like a little

humanity

and lightness in me.

And then later that night, I was like, you know what?

I feel like making out tonight.

It was so weird.

And then later, I was like, oh, that's got to be connected, right?

When I am not feeling like a human, why would I ever want to do something so deeply human

as that?

Really interesting.

So I'm just wondering,

even if not for just having the lightness, if having a little bit of the lightness opens up

desire or

capacity

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Just for also a little context, the list that I made you, Some of the stuff was trying to help to induce even more productivity in some ways.

So taking a five minute rest or a 30 minute rest, whatever you can do after lunch is actually supposed to create more productivity in the rest of your workday but

everything on here is i think that that's a really good way of saying it is to try to gain more humanness

i think that is beautiful let's stick with that for a minute because

i resist and reject the idea that

rest is something that I can I'm going to do so that I can get back to productivity.

That feels so miserable to me that I reject that version of rest.

Like, and that's not my need.

That's not what we're talking about.

I don't need a tool to be more productive.

Oh, you don't.

I need a tool to unlock the part of the pie chart of my life that I don't live in.

Yes.

And so that I understand deeply.

It's like, to me, it's getting back to

the creature self of yourself.

It's the

animal self, really.

It's the whatever

the

capitalist industrial hustle complex has created this robotic part of us.

And honestly, the things you're talking about are beautiful things, but even school things, all the parties, all the teams, all the whatever.

These are things that really

kind of pull us out.

of ourselves and there is something about returning to your creature humanity that has to do with

what you said rising inside of you.

It's like an aliveness,

electricity.

It's like this tingling that happens sometimes that busyness distracts you from.

That sometimes, I think the reason why so many of the things on the list have to do with stopping

is not just so your body isn't moving.

It's because when you're slower,

you tend to look inward.

There's like an inwardness that you can feel as opposed to being constantly distracted by what's going on in the outside.

Yeah, I guess to me, if there was something on a list

that could save me, I would have been saved.

And I think it's probably different from a lot of people.

I don't know, or maybe the same.

It's like, I live and die by a list and I make three different lists a day.

It's like the morning what I intend to get done.

Halfway through the day, I figure out what I haven't done and what I need to do.

Then I have my PMPs, which are PM priorities that I do after the kids go to sleep.

There's not a list that is going to deliver to me my humanity.

And maybe that's hubris.

Like maybe it's like, well, if I incorporated these things into my life,

but to me, it's a lot like the analogy of

working out and eating healthfully.

No one doesn't know that moving your body will help your body.

No one doesn't know that eating a box of Girl Scout cookies makes you feel like shit.

It's not a lack of knowledge that drives us to eat a box of Girl Scout cookies and to not move our bodies.

It's because something else inside of our lives

is pulling us or pushing us in a certain way.

I know I feel better when I move my body.

So the question isn't, well, have you put it on a fucking list?

So you do it.

The question is, what is going on in your life

and under your life?

Yes.

That is making no space for that.

And more importantly, making no desire for that.

Because when you desire something enough, you make space for it.

So

for me, it's like the cart and the horse.

When there is humanity in my life, and when there is like

almost a self-respect of centering my human experience within my own human life

then what will naturally flow from that right is doing the things that i've already known for decades or the things that make me feel better

it's not a lack of knowledge but like desire and habit have to be formed in a lot of ways.

In all of my training, there was never a single day that I wanted to go out and train so hard that I felt like my body was going to fall off.

Yeah.

And so I understand

that we want to get to a place in terms of our psychology and our humanness that the desire comes, but so often it just doesn't.

And I think so many of us live in this space that you're living in.

I mean, I do it every single day and I just do behavior activations because I know the outcome is going to make me feel better.

I don't want to go to the gym every day.

I don't.

Every single morning, I'm like, ugh.

And I just make myself do it.

And I feel better afterwards.

And I know that.

And so over time, the habit,

you can turn it into some sort of quote unquote desire.

I actually desire the outcome more than the actual beforehand dread.

Totally.

So you're arguing for the list.

The discipline leads to desire in a kind of cyclical way.

Yeah.

Because like then your, your body

desires that thing because it has experienced that thing.

When it doesn't experience the thing, it doesn't desire it.

Well, it's like food for me.

Yeah.

I was like, oh,

food isn't enjoyable for me.

But then I had to like discipline myself to eat three meals a day.

And now I'm like, oh my God, I love food.

I did not understand.

And that has made me more human.

When you said, if this were going to save me,

if more things on a list were going to save me, what is it that you're saying you need to be saved from?

From not being me.

I think that I am a playful,

silly,

funny, absurd person.

Yes.

And

over

the last like several years,

that playful, silly, funny

person has been inaccessible to me.

Wow.

And I'm almost like

the reverse of that.

Like I almost resent

when

it's playful and silly around me because I am like,

well, must be nice to be playful and silly.

And I'm probably triple like that because I'm like, I know that is actually my true self and I can't access it.

And so I'll be damned if you are able to access it around me.

And I think this is probably an experience that many, many,

particularly women, but probably others feel is like the sense of

loss

of

who we essentially are

because

of the requirements of what we do.

And so

I think a lot of people

were really funny.

And I think a lot of people were really silly.

And I think a lot of people were really playful.

And then you look back on who you were 20 years ago and you're like,

what happened?

And I think what happened is that we all took our responsibilities very seriously and good on us for doing that.

And

also,

that would be tragic if our whole lives were spent functioning

and not being, you know, and I think I've been

functioning really hard for a long time and not

being.

And I only remember that when I have like glimpses into that and it feels good.

And it's usually, honestly, obligations that force me into a situation where I have to be non-functional that remind me.

So like

summertime, the schedules are all off.

It's like, well, the kids are home for these two hours.

They're not normally home.

And I've decided I'm going to like greet them and be with them for that half an hour.

And it's even just like

that

pausing of the functioning to just be

has like a little spark of me come back, which then shows up later if I'm just being silly.

And I'm like, oh, that, that silliness at 6 p.m.

for 30 seconds.

I'm talking 30 seconds of I notice myself like being an idiot and dancing just to like horrify someone in my family was a result of

having to get up earlier in the day when i didn't want to

and do a thing that was unproductive

wow i'm trying to figure out at what point the

feeling that the doing

and responsibilities overcame the who you are.

Like, can you identify that?

Because you said just the last few years.

I'm trying to feel like if there's, for people for whom this is an issue, which I think is everyone, like we all know, I have different

similar but in different ways with the anorexia.

It's kind of like anorexia.

Is this

something that is just because of work and family life?

Or is it something inherent in you that would come out regardless of what responsibilities in particular that you had?

I think

the latter.

You think it's something in you that would make it.

And I think it's a slippery slope.

I think it's a slip for people

like me.

And I know there's a lot of you listening.

For people like me, it is a slippery slope and it starts a little bitty when you're like friends in high school are going out and you're like, I don't know, I'm going to, I got to study for this test or whatever it is.

And you get very practiced at negotiating yourself out of life.

Wow.

Negotiating yourself out of frivolous things

in order to

choose

the delayed gratification things.

Wow.

I think it has been just like a slow,

slippery slope to where it's again

at the margins and you're like, how did I fill all this shit up every day?

And for the next three months, there's no more places to add.

So, like, if you had one kid and you were like a meditation teacher,

do you think that you would fill to the margins your meditation classes?

And you're like, that's what you're saying.

It's not 100%.

Okay.

I would be the most miserable

if I had no kids and I was an unpaid flower picker.

I would be the most miserable, unpaid flower picker on the planet.

It has nothing to do with the obligations.

It has to do with no matter what I was doing,

it would be zero margin set up in that.

So no, it doesn't have anything to do.

I'm not like, oh, woe is me.

I have so many things.

If I had zero things,

I would be at 10.

What is the root of that?

What is at the root of that?

Because this is trauma behavior.

Tons of people do it.

It's very typical.

Yeah.

What do you believe is at the

root of your determination to be a miserable unpaid flower picker?

Well, I think the objective is not to be miserable.

The byproduct of my personality slash trauma slash makeup slash gifts is misery.

So I do not have, and maybe I do, but I do not believe I have a conscious

goal of being miserable to prove my worthiness.

I think that I'm a maximizer by nature.

I think that I look out and see possibilities.

I think I have a tremendously high self-efficacy, meaning my ability to

apply myself to the world of possibilities and make them so.

And

I do think I have a worthiness complex of being like,

oh,

this thing, look at what I can do.

And that

this is unequivocally worthy, my ability to do this thing.

And so I think it's like a perfect storm.

And I think you get a lot of praise for that in life.

And so it's a self-fulfilling deal.

I think it's largely

like I can do all this shit.

So why wouldn't I?

Self-efficacy

is a curse as well as a blessing.

I would be so upset if I thought I could do everything.

I really do not think I can do

a lot of things.

I mean, I know what I can do and I do them.

And there's a lot of things I know I can't can't do.

So I don't try, but really, you can do anything.

My therapist said to me in the beginning of recovery, she used to make me write it down.

Just because you can do something does not mean you should do that thing.

Just because you can do something does not mean that you can, just because that job is offered to you does not mean that money is for you.

No to possibility.

What do you want?

Because as people who love you

deeply,

I feel like this list,

like suddenly asking you to stick your head in an ice thing

feels like, although I will tell you what she was getting at that, okay?

There is like a jolt of feeling.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Some of these things can enliven that creature part of yourself that makes you feel like to remind you that you're human.

Why life is worth living?

Electroshock.

Yes.

You know, tune in, tune in.

You forgot you were human for a long time and we have to do some drastic measures to remind you you're human.

First of all, I take that entire thing as a love offering.

I love it and I'm not trying to shit on that parade at all.

I think had I not had these recent experiences of that little electricity, I would need that to remind me.

I think I just had the reminders recently, had the like,

ooh, that feels like something good.

And therefore, I'm reminded of the pie chart that's missing.

So I get that.

And I think that's a great strategy for if this conversation feels so foreign

to you, it might be because you have not been reminded of your humanity for so long

that this isn't even a place you can enter the conversation.

Right.

And then if so, go put your fucking head in an ice bucket.

But.

There's a part of this that's just like tired.

It's so boring to talk about how busy you are.

And it's so boring to be a fucking martyr.

What I want

is to have the dignity and take myself seriously enough

to know that if I can do anything, I have the self-efficacy to actualize my humanity in my own human life.

There isn't a like, oh, I'm so sorry for Amanda.

That's bullshit.

I can do all the things.

I am choosing, like the Girl Scout cookies, to not do this for a reason.

And that's all on me.

And so I'm thinking of

part of the self-efficacy

curse, crisis, blessing is like

that's so much individual driven.

And I think people who

get in that path like me

operate under the fiction fiction that you can do everything yourself

and then you do everything yourself,

including try to live your life yourself.

And

in the Ross Gay episode,

where he was talking about that the saddest, hardest times of his life was when he was operating under the delusion and the lie that we were disconnected.

And the joy and the delight comes from the recognition of the truth of the interconnectedness and that sounds very esoteric except that i do find

when i have these like

seedlings saplings

moments of connection whether they're silliness with my kids or whether it's an exchange with a human that was unexpected or

a sharing of something with a friend

that feels frivolous because it was not on my to-do list, but that is the like,

that is the seedling of connection that actually does

make me feel more human, even if it's little.

And that then opens up

my own humanness,

which then has me doing something silly later, which reminds me that I am not only a human, but I'm a very specific type of human

who is most myself

when I am acting like myself.

Yeah.

And that that is as much an important part of me and a part that needs to be expressed in this lifetime as

the thing that is as much about me, which is that I can get a lot of shit done.

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Do you see yourself as the kind of person that would want to incorporate,

like forget this list, want to incorporate more humanness in your life?

Knowing what you know in terms about the way your life operates, is it something that you crave?

Yeah, it is.

So, what would you have to believe to do that?

I would have to believe that I could live this entire life

and eventually die

without

frivolous moments

of joy and connection and delight

and rest and ease,

and that

I would die a really impressive human.

It scares me, my capacity to do that.

I much more have to consciously choose to not do that.

Yeah.

Like my default setting would be that that would be the story of my life.

Yeah.

So you would lay on your deathbed thinking.

I am so impressive.

Well, that's a yes, but also that's a understatement.

Like, it's not just about being impressive for you.

It's like, I was so worthwhile to so many other people's lives.

It's like the idea of worthiness is so interesting because you would have earned your worthiness so much with other people because you make other, everyone else's lives run smoothly, but you would never have experienced enough of what even makes your own life worthwhile.

What makes living worth it?

It's these joy, it's this connection, it's the peace or whatever those words are that describe

you getting to live as you and not hustling for worthiness.

I mean, I think that one of the things, again, like my son has been such a blessing to me over the past couple of years because I think that is an example of like, I almost missed him.

I was so focused on solving him

and preparing the path for him

with, you know, his ADHD and his challenges there

that I was

exerting my efficacy on his life

and I almost didn't know him.

And he is so fucking awesome.

I was managing him and I wasn't knowing him.

And

it is one of the greatest delights of my life is to be like, this person

is just such a puzzle of fascinating stuff that I almost

never knew it.

And I could do the exact same thing with my own life, like so busy managing it that I didn't get to know it.

Woof.

Geez.

So

you,

like me, are very good at understanding things in your head.

You know, my therapists in early recovery would be like, we would get on the Zoom and I would say everything.

You're like, I have recited the diagnostic behavioral chart.

And here's how I'm presenting.

And here's what I need to do.

And here's what all my trauma.

and here's why I do the things I do.

And everything was like neck up.

This

whole process for me has been about for the first time, like actually living

what I know or like letting it sink down into my body and my life.

Do you think you're going to do that?

And I really do

wonder because I, as

your sister and work

partner,

have

whatever the word for worry, tried to fix, tried to boss you about relaxing.

I'm sure I've done it a million wrong ways.

Have said, I'm going to quit this.

I read this book.

It's called like The Matrix by Lauren Groff, and it's about this badass nun who starts this convent, and then all of her friends join her, and she keeps having these great ideas.

So, then all of her friends work until they die on her great ideas.

And so, I was like, oh shit, is that what I'm doing to sister?

Like, I have had

truly

part of

my deep therapy is

not thinking that everything about Abby is my fault, not thinking that everything about you is my fault, because that's extremely narcissistic too.

And, like,

touch code about it.

But it, but

it's not uncomplicated to be

to be working together.

Sometimes I have wondered, should I just stop this whole thing?

Should we quit?

Because I'd rather not do any of this work than to run you into the ground.

And then I wonder, am I solving a problem doing that that isn't the problem?

Because if you're going to be a flower power,

right?

No, truly.

And then I think, then is there a way to

not solve for the wrong problem?

No, it's my problem.

That's right.

It's my problem.

And to the extent that our, my boundaries

that I would need to set affects our business, it would become your problem

to then solve because then that would be your problem.

But no part of this is your problem

because it's not yet.

I'm not saying it would never be.

I'm just saying it's not yet.

I think

that it's a mix of what Abby said.

Like, I really do think it is

a mix of like, if it is connections that I want and knowing that life doesn't set up the pockets of time for that and put them in your path, you have to make them, that there's a part of this that is kind of listy.

and structural setting that up to be like okay i want to go on a walk with a friend twice a week who's that going to be And what time is it going to be?

And then protecting that time and not letting it disappear.

If it's, I'm going to

like

the people that I'm best being playful with are my kids.

And not from the extent of like, you got to practice the piano, not the managing of them, but they're just, are we going to sit on the couch and we're going to look at Taylor Swift YouTube shorts and then we're going to like rank our top five songs, whatever it is, for a half an hour every day.

And then when I introduce that playfulness with them,

like a little shadow of playfulness comes out where I can be playful with John.

It's just like kind of a tired trope for me now.

I'm getting bored of my own self being like,

I'm so tired.

But that's okay.

That's okay.

That's what life is.

We're all just only circling around the one problem that we have that we've had since we were a kid.

Like,

I can't deal with food.

Like, it's a basic thing that we put in our mouth and chew.

And I've been talking about it since I was 10.

But that thing is about everything else.

So it's not tired.

It just takes what it takes.

And it's probably going to be the thing until you're dead.

But life does offer us these moments where we can

say,

I know all these things in my head and I'm actually going to do something about it but you only again the thing under the thing under the thing

is trust

the thing under the thing that lets me do the thing that gives me ease and playfulness is the trust

that if I do that

and not the 47 things that are already on my list

that life and our business

will not fall apart.

The trust that, like,

if I do my best,

that enough is enough.

And

that's the scariest thing of all

is to not continue to try to have a hyper hold on, like, I will know that I've done everything to protect my family and my business and my life and my people.

If I just keep doing and never stop doing, and if I have the audacity to stop doing for a second and something breaks bad,

will that be because I stopped doing for a second?

And so I think it's trust.

I think it's trust in the, that like, you know what?

I have worked my ass off today.

I have tried to prioritize the way I can.

I have done what I can do.

And tomorrow I will do what I can do again.

And not that it won't fall apart.

Because that's the illusion of ever having had control.

It's like Liz always says to me, when I say I'm letting go of control, she says, you're not letting go of control.

You've never had control.

You're letting go of your illusion that you ever had control.

Your trust cannot be in, it won't fall apart.

Like, oh, my kids won't fall apart.

My family won't, my marriage won't fall apart.

My business won't fall apart.

No wonder you don't stop if that's what you think you have to have trust in.

Like, it likely will fall apart.

Everything's going to fall apart over and over again.

So, it's like, when it falls apart, I guess we'll just do the next right thing together.

Like, I guess we'll figure it out tomorrow.

But, done enough.

I trust that I've done enough

so that I deserve to rest.

And when you don't know if you deserve to rest, and there is no

quantifiable thing that is ever enough, then you, by definition, have never done enough to deserve to rest.

Yeah.

Do you ever want to just stop all this?

No.

You don't want like an

experiment of

enough.

I'll tell you what, I'd take two-thirds of this.

Like, would you?

Like, of the whole bag.

I would, because I think I do.

I don't know if that's capacity.

Like, I don't know if it's hiring something else, someone else.

I don't know if it's like me just figuring out how to draw back a third.

I don't know if it's like.

Okay.

If you like two-thirds of this, would you want help from the team

to figure out how to get two-thirds of this?

Because one of the things I see with the people we would call over-functioners is that

sometimes I think it's not the two-thirds of the list that will ever happen.

It's like

taking

requirements for A-plus work to two-thirds of that.

Like

we're going to be okay with B pluses everywhere.

Because

If you're the filter through which everything goes, your family, your community, your team, your lacrosse team, your

work team, and you always have to make it an A, then there's never going to be any room for

enough.

Because it's always going to have to go through you.

For someone who loves someone like you, what I'm trying to say is, it is the tendency of us to want to fix things for you when you say, I want

two-thirds of this or you know when you've come to me and said this is going to make me sick if I keep doing this

it is the tendency of the person who loves you to want to okay let's sit down let's figure out how to take some of this away from you

but that feels threatening to you it feels like you don't want things taken away from you

and so then for the person on this side it feels like we've fucked it up Is that tracking?

Or does it feel like, well, that's just not going to even happen?

Like, is there a part of you that's like, okay, this is a really nice, fun game that you want to do?

But for the over functioner, if you take the thing and you're like, okay, we're going to take that from you and we're going to put it over here, then that person's still going to go back and grab this thing because they can do it a little bit better.

There

are a handful of people that I trust with every piece of this, and they're already on our team.

And every single other person we have tried to incorporate to offload shit to,

it has come back to me.

Except for the people on our team.

So what I'm just saying is theoretically awesome.

And we might be getting a little tangential here.

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I'm really trying to figure out if this is structural, if this is like a workload thing, or if this is below

that.

If this is something that

is not workload, but is internal response to the world.

When I say two-thirds, when you said, do you want to stop this?

And I'm like, unequivocally, no, I love this.

I love the whole thing, the whole business.

Like in a perfect world, is it like

a few less hours a day?

Yeah, that would be perfect for every member of our team.

All of it is awesome.

And it's all just a little too much awesome.

I just want to ask you: like, are you feeling okay about all that we're talking about?

Like, are you feeling like your feelings are starting to get hurt a little?

Well, I'm just feeling like, A,

I don't know if this is a practical exercise, but I feel like it's like kind of

like a theoretical enterprise.

And then

B, I feel like

what

I need to do is what I already identified I need to do, which is do my best

and

work really hard and then trust that it's enough

and build in slots of

time.

I don't think that it's ever realistic that I'm just going to lower my standards and be like, it's a B.

And I also don't think it's a failure of my

management of the thing

that it's the amount of work it is.

Our whole team works their asses off.

And it's just like we are not victims of this.

We're here because we are devoted to this and we're really good at it.

And

we are responsible for our own selves and our own lives

and making that work for us.

I just do feel like if we have a beautiful thing,

and

what's way more important to me than a successful podcast show is that we are all having the human experiences that we're supposed to be having.

Way more important.

So

let's just stop there

because this has just

been a lot.

It would have been easier if I put my head in a bucket.

For fuck's sake, that's why people do this shit instead of getting to the stuff below the stuff.

It's actually quite amazing.

I love you so much, and I feel very grateful for your vulnerability and honesty.

I don't think we really expected to go that deep.

So I'm really grateful that you did.

And I think we should plan a month from now

to have another chat.

And if it's exactly like this, that's fine.

Yeah, but I also think like, if you want to make your own list, because like this is the shit that works for me, you know, the stuff that I've implemented in my day.

And also, sister, I just want you to know, I understand what it's like to be a high achiever.

And I know how much self-esteem being good at shit brought me.

I really know that that's also so alluring and enticing.

And it's, it's hard to turn your back on that or at least like even like turn a quarter a ways away from that.

And so, like,

I don't want you to ever feel like in this conversation or the way that I think or the way that Glennon's, I don't think that there's anything fucking wrong with you.

But what I would love to see more of is that, is that frivolous, fun

situation you're talking about.

I would love more of that just because when you talk about it, you light up.

When you talk about that part of who you are, who you've been, you know, suppressing a little.

That gets me really excited.

I don't know.

I get really excited.

I appreciate that because to me, it's less of a zero sum.

It's less of a like,

well, you have got to stop focusing so much on being good at that shit you're doing because

then there's not enough

in this bucket over here.

And it's more like

you've got to focus that energy of being so good at shit.

Yes, and start being so good at being alive.

Yes.

So, like, it's not that you need to like

stamp out that part of you.

No, you need to kindle the shit out of that part of you and start using it to live.

That's right.

Too.

And that for me feels the most empowering version of it, which is like,

I know I can do that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's just a question of

just doing it.

Can you do me a favor?

When you feel the bubbly or the inside, you call it playful a lot.

When you feel that, will you write, just jot it down like when you felt it?

Yeah.

So maybe that's a good start instead of a list, just like a noticing.

Yeah.

Then an essayette.

An essayette

of

times when you noticed the joy or the whatever it is.

And then maybe that will help us know what we can call it proof of life.

Proof of life.

My God, Tish always says that.

Show me your proof of life.

And also, I don't want to do it in one month.

I want to do it in three months.

Oh, look at you.

Three months.

We'll chat in three months.

I love it.

No, I think that's, that is my thing.

If I do it in a month, then I'll be like, well, you know what?

I've got to get three things on the schedule for this week and the three things on the schedule for this week.

I'm not interested in that.

Is there anything that we can do to support, help in that way?

Like we can hands off for three months, or I can send, you know, a text every once in a while, like proof of life.

Like just tell us some ideas.

Please send proof of life.

What are some proofs of life that you have?

I will think about that, Abby.

Just let us know.

I just love you.

I want you to tell us what will work best for you in your mind.

Yeah.

And it's no small thing.

So, like, three months, if we figure this out, it will be a cultural breakthrough.

This is like an epidemic

of women.

What I'm saying is it's 45 years in the making and it's like, let's be back here in four weeks.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

Not you.

No, no, no.

I know.

I know.

I mean, like worldwide, bringing women back to life and allowing them to live as who they are.

We will give you three months to solve.

Yeah.

I mean, that may be, I think you're exactly right.

When we did, I don't don't even know what episode it was, but I was talking about some things like

I used to be funny and silly or something on one episode, probably a year ago.

And I was reading every single comment under

the Instagram post that

was driving to that episode.

And the number of people that I saw saying things like,

I

am a really funny person, and I always have been.

And I

just talk to my family about it and they're like, mom isn't funny.

I've never heard mom be funny.

Or I am

silly and I just realized I haven't been silly in 10 years.

We think we are these things,

but there's no evidence of that in our lives.

You got to be them.

And it's so sad.

It's like the stupid is a stupid does.

It's like, smart is a smart does silly is a silly does like we think

we is but we don't does but we is not we think we is but we don't does

we don't does we got a smart doesn't

is what it is

oh my god

yeah i read something allie wong said recently i don't just want equal pay i want equal pleasure

we love you pod squad for fuck's sake i don't know we'll see you next time Do you hear that?

Do you hear that ambulance going by my house?

Uh-oh.

It's like this is the emergency rent level.

They heard it and they're coming for me.

See, you're silly.

We love you.

We love you.

See you guys.

Bye,

Fold.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things, first, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

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I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlisle.

I walked through fire, I came out

the other side.

I chased desire,

I made sure I got what's mine

And I continue

to believe

that I'm the one for me

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on map A final destination

we lack

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been

And to be loved, we need to belong

We'll finally find

our way back home

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do a hard thing.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem.

Sometimes things fall apart

And I continue

to believe

the best

people are free

And it took some time

But I'm finally fine

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

A final destination

we lack.

We stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find

our way back home

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do a hard day.

We're adventurous and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay with that.

We've stopped asking directions

in some places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to belong.

We'll finally find

our way back on

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do hard things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do hard

things.