233. What’s Next for We Can Do Hard Things

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Welcome to the last episode of this season of We Can Can Do Hard Things.

We just

discovered that there are seasons.

People

who do podcasts

can have seasons where they stop and start again.

We've just been going and going and going forever and relentlessly.

Narrow week off.

To use some of Abby's Victorian language.

Narrow week off.

I'm excited because I actually do think and live in

seasons.

And for me, I always think of the end of the year

as

August, and the beginning of the year is September because that's my teacher brain.

Oh, yeah.

I always think of September as the beginning of the year.

So

we are going to take a pause after this episode, you're hearing

in your earballs.

We are going to take a pause

and

a little breather.

And then we're going to come back fresh in September to do

another season with you of life.

It's very exciting.

Yeah.

And so we've all three, in preparation for this episode,

we have been trying to think about what this season, which for us started in January, right?

I mean, really, it started too early.

No, this season started in May of 2021 is when the season started.

Okay.

I am curious about how this episode will shape up because it feels like kind of a big deal because this episode is going to be the last episode of our season.

So when I say season, I mean we started this season in January.

That's how I'm thinking of it.

We're ending now.

We're going to take a.

Okay, so what I call is a Sela, a Sela.

That's one of my favorite words, S-E-L-A-H.

It's like a holy pause.

It's a breather.

What is it, two weeks?

Yeah, a two-week Sela where we just kind of let everything soak in

that we've learned and talked about and

wrestled with this season.

And then we're going to start again fresh with our pod squad in September.

So today we're going to talk about what this season has meant to us.

And we're going to ask you at the end of the episode to help us use this next few two weeks to shape the next season by calling in writing in the number is 747-200-5307 or if you're more of a writer and less of a caller you could write to wcdhtpod at gmail.com

And just let us know who do you want to hear from?

What conversations do you want to

hear what is going on in your life that you are either struggling with or growing from that you want to share with the pod squad and have us all do together because that's what i feel like we're doing we're just doing life together one week at a time

it truly is a co-created podcast yeah we

read every single review we read

every single comment listen to every single voicemail i mean there is

something

really magical

about

us

sharing our thoughts with you, you

telling us

the next step, the way you feel about it.

It's one conversation leading to another conversation.

And I think that's a really unique thing about what we're doing here.

And that's why it has been so magnificent.

And so please keep sharing your thoughts with us because it's definitely a co-created

journey that we're on.

That's right.

And so

today,

each of us is going to talk about what this season meant to us and what the journey has been for us.

It's so amazing

for us three to have this podcast because

it is like the ultimate, for me, I should say, it feels like the ultimate accountability group.

Some people have accountability groups that are like one person or three.

And I feel like our accountability group is the millions of pod squatters.

Because when I think about,

for me, the first episode of this season was the episode 165 when I talked about my diagnosis.

I think it was called Glennon's Diagnosis and What's Next in January.

And

I actually,

in preparation for today, went on a walk and listened from beginning to end to that episode.

And why that is a big deal, Pod Squad, is that I have never listened to a single one of these podcasts.

Well, first, I'll tell you my experience.

I was walking, walking, walking on a sunny day and listening to this

emotional, very emotional.

I mean, this episode was.

I revealed my anorexia diagnosis and where I was with all of it.

And it's one of the most listened-to episodes we've ever had, which is so,

I think, scary to me when I listen to something that is so deeply personal.

And then I have this other consciousness of thinking about how many people listen to it.

That's why I don't listen because I'm afraid it will scare me too much and then I won't do it again.

And I feel like it's what I'm supposed to be doing on the earth.

That makes sense.

Is living things out loud.

And my job is to make sure.

And I think everybody's job is to

figure out what their gifts, purpose, life is about, and then slowly try to eliminate all the things that threaten that thing from happening.

And who cares what those are?

Like, if those are things that other people can do, but you can't do,

because it might throw you off what your purpose is, then you just don't have to do them.

And that's just

the deal.

So I feel a little bit like when I'm listening listening to myself,

that I'm being haunted.

I feel like I'm being haunted by some old version of myself that is still existing in the present for other people.

Imagine, pod squatters, if there were just little teeny versions of yourself, like in high school and college and four weeks ago, just running around the earth that anybody could encounter at any time.

It's weird.

So what was it like when you were on the walk listening to it?

It was amazing.

Really?

Yeah.

Really?

Because you don't listen because there is something deeply unsettling to you about listening to your own voice, listening to these conversations.

Even when we have to

look at something, you look at the words and the transcript.

You don't listen ever.

Right.

Okay.

Here's two things

that I discovered.

Number one,

I don't hate my voice anymore.

Well, that's something.

Wow.

I know.

I feel like

when I was listening to that diagnosis episode, I was like,

you sound

calm.

I felt all right

about

the way that I sounded.

I also felt, you know what?

I felt proud.

I felt like wow that was a lot sweetheart like and i could i could sense the dooziness of like the confusion and the shock

in my voice but i felt like good job honey could you feel how much growth has happened for you since you recorded the episode no

i think this is why these things are confusing to me.

And so I let myself off the hook of this being some sort of, and then there was the journey of the season and that's who I was and this is who I am as some sort of linear situation, because that's what I was trying to do.

I was like, okay, I have to, this episode has to be one where I like reflect on who I was and now who I am and I have to show progress.

And I kept not working and I kept not knowing what to do for this.

So then I said, no, no, no, this is just another snapshot.

It's not proof of anything.

It's not like I have to be different.

I don't have to show progress.

I just have to reveal who I am today.

And that's all I have to do forever.

But when you listened to it the other day, did you notice a distance from that person you were in the snapshot of when you recorded it to the person you were when you were re-listening to it?

No, I just felt like, oh, she has been shocked awake and I'm still awake.

That's it.

And then the other thing I noticed was how freaking beautiful you two are.

I felt like, oh my God, I think sometimes when you're doing this, I mean, we probably get as real as you can in terms of a thing where you know you're being listened to because you are aware of that in the moment.

I think sometimes you can miss how gorgeous the experience is of telling your things and sharing yourself and then having two of the most loving, brilliant,

connected

people on earth listening to it.

And it felt very like, wow, this is special.

And I'm lucky listening back.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

And then I listened to Tisha's song after, which

sometimes I don't listen to that.

So I have a very hard time.

Sometimes I'll walk upstairs and Abby's playing Tish's music and I'm like, no, shut it down.

Yeah.

You can't just spring that on.

You can't just spring that on someone, you know?

So I just allowed myself to be exposed to the whole thing, and it was really, really beautiful.

And so, I don't want to do like a big progress report on the season because that doesn't feel true to me.

But I just want to tell a little story that I feel like is

the truest I can come to the change in anorexia recovery for me.

Okay, it has nothing to do with food, actually.

So, little of this, it turns out, has to do with food.

It's about thinking and being

everything else.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Including food.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, there has been progress in terms of that.

Yeah.

My body is different.

I've gained a significant amount of weight.

I have slowly carried every single piece of clothing out of my life because none of it fits anymore.

I have all of those things to report.

But

here's the story I want to tell.

So

several months ago, we had an anniversary party for our parents.

Okay, so the three of us planned a lovely 50th wedding anniversary surprise party for my mom and dad.

It was at the restaurant where they had their reception 50 years ago.

It was lovely, beautiful.

I think there was like how many people were there?

Like 30 people, like just their best friends and our families.

And

this interesting thing happened happened in approaching the day.

Pod Squad, the thing about our family is that

the way, one of the ways, one of the major ways we show love is through

large productions of things.

Some sort of major toast, some sort of huge presentation, some sort of big offering.

that has required a lot of preparation.

And then we offer it to each other.

And it's a beautiful fucking thing.

It's the thing that my friends have always been like, wow.

And it's why it makes me want to jump out of my skin and roll under a bus every time someone stands up and is like, at the wedding reception, I'm just going to speak from the heart.

You're an asshole.

Right.

Because it's built into us as, I mean, more Irish, the lineage is long with the like,

I shall commemorate

this

moment

with an

oration

that I have worked on and prepared and represents

what this moment means in the full context of our ecosystem and your life.

And here it is, and it's beautiful.

And that's a lot.

And that happens like when my kids finish a basketball season.

There will be something like that that happens with my parents.

Or when there's an anniversary, it's every occasion is appropriately marked or else it didn't happen.

Right.

Exactly.

That's right.

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So this interesting thing happened on the way up to the party, which was that I wasn't doing that.

I wasn't writing anything.

I wasn't preparing anything.

And I was like, oh, this is weird.

I guess I'm going to do it on the plane.

You know, I wasn't like making my kids prepare something, which was like, wait, what?

What the hell?

What am I doing?

I'm, this is crazy.

It's a free-for-all.

This is a free-for-all.

This is how we got to this 50 years and now we're throwing it away.

Right.

So then I get on the plane and like, I'm sitting on the plane and Abby pulls out her computer and she's going to watch a movie.

And I'm like, I want to watch that movie with her.

And I'm just, I guess I'm watching a movie now.

And so I snuggle up and watch a movie with Abby.

And then the movie's over.

And I'm like, I just, I feel like I just want to read my book.

And I keep not writing anything.

And I'm like, what is going to happen?

Like, I am crazy.

This is crazy.

So then I get to the party and it's a small party and it's in this beautiful old room.

It's like where George Washington lived or something.

I don't know.

It's called the Gatsby's Tavern.

It's in Old Town, Alexandria.

And it is one of the oldest taverns in America.

It's where they got married and where also John and I got married.

Right, right.

So

we get changed in a little bathroom at Gatsby's Tavern because our family has flown in and gone directly to the thing.

And I'm like, oh, I just don't have anything.

This is me not having anything prepared.

And so.

People start coming and they're my mom and dad's oldest friends or my Aunt Peggy, my Aunt Stephanie and my Uncle Keith and all these people have been in our books.

So I'm mentioning them, my cousin Beth, like all of their best friends.

And I'm like,

just hugging all of them and

being there.

And then we go into the room and

I'm like, I guess I have to say something.

And so I just stand up and say something welcoming, like, hi, everybody.

It's amazing that you're here.

We love you so much.

I think I say something beautiful, like enough about my mom and dad.

And and then i sit down

and

i feel a little bit bad

i felt a little bit like oh god maybe that wasn't like honoring enough or maybe that wasn't good enough and

and then we go through the evening and the rest is just beautiful and everyone's having such a wonderful time and I go up to my cousin Beth at the end and we finally get a moment together and my cousin Beth, she helped raise us.

I mean, we love her so much and

she has known me since I was a baby.

And she said, I just, I don't know, I've never seen you look so good and so calm and so peaceful.

And I was like,

huh.

And then,

okay, this birthday party was a surprise party.

Okay, so my parents did.

It was not actually a birthday party at all.

Oh, oh, it was not a birthday party.

It was an anniversary party.

Well, which is the birth of their marriage.

Okay,

so then

my dad stands up, Bubba, at the end, and he gives a toast.

And what I realize is something feels very different about the toast than what he usually does.

And his toasts are usually the best thing in the world.

They're beautiful.

He's an incredible writer and good performer, all the things.

But his toast feels different.

I realize, oh my God, he's in the moment.

He's very vulnerable.

His words are less clever, but more

real.

He's with us.

He's a little bit emotional.

He's responding.

Everybody's performing.

Everybody's emotional.

He seems so with us and tender.

And it touched me deeply.

It touched me too.

I've never seen my dad like that in my entire life and delivering words to anyone.

And I realized, oh my God, it's because this was a surprise.

He couldn't prepare anything.

So he couldn't perform anything.

So he had to be here with us.

And because he was

here with us, he wasn't in his mind for the whole previous two hours preparing this thing that he was going to deliver to us.

So he was with us.

And

after that night,

all I could think about on the plane home is I

was not amazing

at that

on that evening.

I did not nail anything.

I did not perform anything.

I did not deliver anything.

And I was so happy.

And I was so with the people who were there.

And those people who were there, they noticed that,

that I was so with them.

And my dad that night was so with us.

And what I realized is the shadow side of this feeling like you have to perform

your love

is that you are not with.

There's all the beautiful parts of that, and I'm not discounting any of it.

There's an end to that, which has to do with worthiness.

Like the idea that I was worth just being in that space as I was, and not performing anything, and not delivering anything, and just being,

and that that was enough and perhaps the best thing, that that was the gift, my relaxed presence

is for me the opposite of anorexia.

And that's

what I am trying to

undo in my life is the idea that I am not enough

just as I show up,

and that I have to perform or be or prepare something else to

be worthy enough of the space I'm in.

And that I have to, that love is not something to just drop into and be with

the other, that love is something to perform.

I think it's interesting because the way the world works is we all get

trophies and awards and money for the performance of stuff.

And then we all feel,

why do I feel like I'm not really connecting with people?

And so it's harder work.

And it's in some ways unnoticeable, except the way that you feel when you leave.

Yeah.

And then moments that you have.

I just think, I wonder how many times I've been in situations where I've nailed something and people are like, she's good.

But like, I wasn't there a lot.

Well, it's like you said, an untamed.

You can be

shiny

and admired, or you can be real and loved.

Yeah.

Those speeches, those like, damn, I mean, those are gifts too, right?

Because if you have the ability to formulate in words what other people

also want to express, but don't have access to, there is a virtue and a gift in that.

But it also comes at a cost.

The analogy is so strong.

If you prepare something in advance,

then you necessarily already know

or you've told yourself you know what that situation calls for.

You've told yourself, this is the script.

This is what I'm going to say.

So therefore, the time that you're in

and the people that are there and what's happening in the moment have zero relevance

to what you're going to say.

And not only that, but they can become a hindrance.

The amount of times where I have felt like everyone has to be controlled and quiet and paying attention because I am delivering love to you.

The people there can be a stumbling block to you performing your love for them.

And it affects the substance in that way.

That's one of the most profound family moments I've ever experienced in our family because it has always been shiny and impressive.

Always.

And both my weddings, people are like, damn, those are the best wedding speeches by a dad I've ever heard, you you know?

And yet, like him in that moment, he would not have said

what he said in that moment had he prepared it.

Nope.

And what he said, he was talking about his relationship with my mom over 50 years.

And he was talking about growing up and how his best friend, Uncle Tony, who was also there, who we didn't know wasn't our actual uncle until we were like nine, because we called him Uncle Tony our whole lives and then pieced it together.

Like, wait, who is he?

Whose kid is he?

And anyway, he's my dad's best friend.

He was talking about how my mom was like,

I want

us to be best friends.

And how, for a solid like decade, he had no fucking idea what she was talking about.

He was like, I have my friends.

My friends are Tony.

I don't understand the words you're using to talk to me about this.

And how just in the past like 10 years,

he understood what it was to be

in partnership with my mom as his best friend.

And he was talking about her in that way in a really beautiful way.

And people

started clapping.

And he

held up his hand and was like, No,

don't clap.

The point is, I was late.

I was late,

but not too late.

And it was so beautiful and she said so honest and she said and she said not too late she said back to him and that

for me is so true and so real and had he prepared it he would have prepared like a beautiful you know

gorgeous thing about my mom and all her virtues but like what was the truest thing

about

them

is that they were true to each other and they fought through it and they worked it out.

And it was late.

Yeah.

And it was not too late.

And both.

That's the best part.

We're all going to be late.

We're all late.

I am so late on so many things.

And my only

prayer is that I won't be too late.

Yeah.

That I'll get to the place where I'm like, I get it.

I get it.

And I can be settled enough in myself to see it.

And I think that goes back to actually being there, totally

being in it.

Yeah.

What I felt after that night was, but that's too good to be true.

I can't just,

it's too good to be true to just be there with my own non-amazing

normal self.

What if that were true?

What if that's all I had to do?

What if that's all my people had ever wanted from me?

And I believe believe that that is the case.

It's true.

It's always been true since you were born.

But that's not what I'm shown.

We can all be forgiven for like thinking that that's not what the world wants from us.

You know, what I listened to in that episode 165 in the beginning of this season was

that

discipline was my God.

control was my God, that I was in a religion of anorexia that had to do with food, but also has to do with everything else, the way that I love, the way that I live, the way that I work out, the way that I work, all the things.

And it had to do with the idea that if discipline is your

religion, then what is your God?

What are you a disciple of?

What are you trying to be with all this discipline?

And I guess that that would have been some level of amazing.

or perfect, the discipline of perfection or our culture's idea of whatever that is, success, all the shit, beauty, thinness, everything that the culture ever told me was

success.

And so then I was thinking, okay, what would

I be a disciple of now?

Like, what would I be trying to go for?

And I told my therapist that the kids these days on the TikTok and in our house have this word called mid.

My dinners are usually mid.

Yeah.

To my family.

It's mid.

It's not great.

It's not great.

It's mid.

It's, it's not going to get you arrested.

But it's not bad.

It's not bad,

but it's not great.

Mid is just like maybe even a hair below middle.

And I told my therapist, I think that's what I'm going for now.

I think I don't believe in the shooting for, and I don't mean bad.

I'm not going to be bad.

Listen, that party.

It's not not doing anything.

It's not not caring.

We planned that thing.

We got our asses on planes across the the country to get to that thing.

We did the thing.

My discipline is not fuck it,

but it's

mid, which means just in the middle and just okay and just showing up, but it also means midst.

In the midst.

When you are not performing, you are in the midst of people and life.

And it is a gift to you because you don't have to do anything else.

That's why it feels too good to be true.

Well, it's being, it's a new definition of responsible.

I mean, it's what we talked about a couple of episodes ago.

The word response sub-bull is able to respond.

If you already know what you're going to do, because you already perfected it six weeks ago in this moment.

then you are not responsible because you are not able to respond because you are pre-committed to whatever you're going to do in the moment.

And that's why

with responsible, you are able to respond.

You have done the groundwork.

You couldn't have been responsible in that moment had you just woken up on their 50th anniversary and said, I'm going to call and see what comes to me.

Like you had done the work to prepare the party so that you could show up and be responsive.

in the moment that was called for.

So it is an and both.

It's in this squishy middle.

If you're being responsive in every moment, then the moment you're in is prepared for you.

Right?

I think so.

I think that's right.

And I think that there is a way of living that I've been trying out these last few months that

I think if you are

honest.

with your days in yourself, which means you're just like facing life for what it is and facing yourself,

You

are ready.

I think if you're doing the work on yourself,

you kind of do come to each moment with this bit of

respect

for the other human being

and gratitude for the experience that makes you prepared.

It's just a different version of being prepared.

I can see it with people now.

I can see the old version of being prepared.

I can see it on the podcast.

I can see me

a year ago.

I can see the people that come and are like,

come hell or high water.

These are the 10 things I'm saying.

And I get that.

I still do that.

Like, I get it.

That is the same idea as coming to a conversation with your spouse and your partner.

And you're like, this is my argument.

And this is what I need you to know.

And this is, and you think that's preparedness.

And that's not preparedness.

That's control, right?

Preparedness is being prepared or being available or being responsible is being so present that it's a new moment you're in.

And you can respond based on what is the universe is requiring of you in that moment, not what you are requiring of the universe in that moment.

Interesting that you're kind of putting in this context.

I've never thought this

way before, but overly preparing is almost a turning away from yourself, not being able to actually trust yourself

and be confident with

and the worthiness, but it's like also you're preparing because you're just like, I don't know, I don't know if just me showing up is going to be enough.

Yeah.

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Is that what this whole like, I am enough enough thing?

I honestly, I don't really understand that whole like, I am enough, I am enough.

Everyone's screaming, I am enough.

I believe them.

I don't know what the fuck they're referring to.

Is the is the I am enough, like, if I have trust in myself and what I'm trying to do, that whatever I'm bringing to this moment is enough.

I am enough right now.

to rise to what the situation calls for or to,

you know, sink into what this moment calls for or whatever the hell.

Like, is that what they're saying?

I think maybe

I just saw a meme the other day that had a picture of an I am enough at one of those home goods and it says, here, here's how you can prove to the world that you're having a nervous breakdown for only $12.

I am enough.

I think we all know that feeling of like,

it's not, it's not enough.

Whatever I just did, that wasn't it.

That's the only feeling I've ever known.

Right.

That is a person who, and I've told this story before, when I'm in New York and I'm about to go to a meeting and I'm scared shitless because I'm meeting a new person and they're going to decide whether I'm like good enough for this job or that job.

And the agent says to me, Are you okay?

And I say, No, I'm scared.

And she says, It's going to be fine.

Just be yourself.

And I say to her, I don't know how much longer I can keep that up.

That is what that is.

I wonder if that circles back to

not hating the sound of your own voice.

Because I wonder if what we hate

is to hear ourself pretending.

I wonder if what we hate is to hear ourselves one degree off key from authenticity.

Yes, that is it.

I just used to think she's so scared.

I don't like the performance of me.

I think that's why I had to get off stages for this year.

I haven't been on a stage for eight months.

I haven't done a speaking event in eight months.

I am starting to see

a light at the end of this beautiful tunnel of being able to do things again from a different energy.

It wasn't the thing

that was the problem.

It was the me performing

that was the problem.

I feel like

that is a new discipline for me is MID.

I am a disciple of MID and I

think that that's an interesting thing.

It is a very interesting thing to be a professional speaker and a podcaster, and then to be like, I'm not performing anymore because one could believe if they were me, that my job is to perform the rest of my life and be amazing and be whatever I need to be.

And I'm actually not going to do it anymore.

I'm just going to show up.

And my version of preparedness is going to be that I'm doing my work and I respect so deeply the people that we're inviting on here.

And I have some curiosities and questions.

And I am going to try to bring a version of myself that's just

a calm nervous system and not panic that I'm not enough and not a performance.

We have an episode that we just recorded will be coming to you in September.

with Adrienne Marie Brown that we just did.

And this wild thing happened, which is Adrienne,

who we respect so deeply, came on.

And

she was so

present.

And I don't know how to explain this other than from the first moment I saw her on the screen,

she

doesn't have to be prepared because she is

prepared.

How does that make you feel when you're when you're talking to her?

Well, I started crying for the first time on a podcast.

I started crying.

It wasn't because of what she was saying,

it was because of the clarity that I could see that she

believed and knew with every ounce of herself that she was fully prepared for this moment in every moment.

And it wasn't because she was remembering some script or she was delivering some lines.

It was because

you could see in her presence

what her life is like.

She

honors herself.

She has amazing conversations.

She reads.

She writes.

She's so in touch with her.

You could just, I don't know.

You could just sense

who she believes herself to be and who she believes other people.

She had set this major compassion and kindness.

And

it just made me cry.

But that is related also to your revelation of this year, which has changed so much for me, which is that

every moment is the most important moment.

That is inextricably linked to that because

she

was deeply attached to whatever was happening in that second that we were talking without

the kind of underlying anxiety of,

oh, but we're going to get over here to my work about X.

Exactly.

This moment's nice and everything, but, but we're going to get to Y and Z.

I'm gonna be moving this over here to this thing.

That is that trust.

That is that

being responsible.

This moment is so important and I am attached to this moment like it's the most important thing in the world

without needing to manipulate it

to be

A.

And without sitting here thinking, oh, God, this is so stupid.

I should be doing B.

At least for me, those are my two of my strongest compulsions are, okay, this is all nice and good.

And I'll give this about 45 more seconds before we get to A, which is what we need to be doing.

Or let's get through this because I have B, C, and D that I need to be doing.

And those are way more important than this.

Yeah.

And the dignity of that.

is related to I have a trust that this moment that I'm in is the moment i should be in and not a means to any other moment right

and that means that people do not become means to any other thing

and what's unique about her is that it's like she's beyond the practicing of that as a discipline which i still am i'm like okay double down this is the most important moment and i'm saying that to myself in order to ground myself in that moment but i actually don't believe it yet the same way i'm like entertaining this idea of like is it possible to show up and be just believe I'm prepared enough?

Like, I'm entertaining that theoretically, but I don't yet believe it.

And so, I think that she believes that.

And so, it's coming out of her that she's like, I want to talk about Abby's soccer.

This is great.

Let's keep talking about this.

I know.

And we were texting all through the soccer games afterwards.

I think that what's so interesting is like, we're getting to like the crux of as we get older to just like surrender to what is and like the vibration and like trying to enter into the vibration of the universe that we are all just kind of down here it's weird and when you are trying to control everything

it feels so constricting yes and then when you kind of give up that control and you open your hands and you get curious and you start to find yourself in the flow of life you'll bump into shit, but it's less severe.

Yeah, and that I want that to be my version of love.

That's, that's the the kind of love I was made for is just being here and being present.

I have tried to be the version of love that is delivering something awesome for people.

And it has made me very sick

and very unpresent and very scared all the time and

trying to control the very people that I'm trying to love.

so that they can fucking accept this version of love I'm trying to shove down their throats.

Like I

don't want to do that to anybody else or to myself anymore.

I actually want to live my days

in this ridiculously luxurious idea

that I can just show up

and enjoy other people.

You're doing it too.

Like, enjoy the moment, enjoy other people.

Whatever that is, is to me the opposite of

anorexia.

And slowly throughout this podcast season, all of the people that we have been interviewing and the conversations that we've been having, my personal agenda in all of those conversations has been to get towards this idea.

You know, whether it's Ross Gay with the delights or Sonia Renee Taylor, all of these conversations have been an undoing of the performance and the control and an honoring of what is within myself and with other people.

And I guess what it feels like is

it feels like more magic.

It feels like more awe.

It feels like more peace.

None of it's perfect.

At first it was a little anxious for you too.

It was hard.

I remember early days.

Letting go of control is terrifying.

It was really hard.

Especially like the addiction part of it.

Like you're looking for any kind of

sign that that way of living was correct.

And the way that you're doing now is worse and you're getting whatever metrics you're using.

right?

And so, you had to be really patient with yourself.

And having that front row seat has been really fun to watch because you are getting reaffirmed in the way that you feel rather than the outside world telling you what's right or wrong.

Yes.

Yeah.

The world is not going to tell a woman who's relaxing that she's great, except for the people who love her, except for the only people who matter.

Those people are going to finally meet her

and be like, Hi,

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What about you, sis?

What do you think about when you think about this

journey of this past year and the pod and all that?

I feel like there's a few things.

I have one thing that I think

has shifted a little bit.

And that is,

I feel like when we started this a couple of years ago, I was in the place where

I wanted to want

things that were going to feel good.

It's like a little kid being stuck in a house and being like, you're not allowed to go outside.

And, but I didn't even want to go outside.

I was like, I wish I wanted to go outside and play.

Nothing's stopping me from that.

Also, no one's telling me not to go outside.

I just don't even want to go outside, even though I know that would be good for me.

And I feel like I'm just starting to catch glimpses of,

oh, I actually want to go outside and play.

And so even in those cases where I either let myself or don't let myself,

it's nice

to want that.

You know, because before I was just like, I guess I'm missing that, that like even that desire

to

feed that part of me, it doesn't even exist in me.

And so now

it's kind of delightful when I want that.

And sometimes I'm like, fuck it, I'll go do it.

And sometimes I'm like, no, I won't.

But even to have that to grapple with is a nice thing.

Because before I was just grappling with the shame and the kind of

you're totally fucked up because you don't even want those things.

So that's good.

I think something that I'm

dealing with right now is just the very humbling

reality

that you touched on before about

the myth of linear progress, that I feel like I'm circling around a lot of things.

Like I'm circling around that kind of

what it means to be human and to be alive and to desire play.

And can I cultivate that?

And you know, my marriage and stuff in parenting and just kind of general peace.

And so

I'll get to this place where I'm like, oh my gosh, look, I can look behind me and see it looks different than where I am right now.

And then

suddenly I make the turn and I'm just moving around the spiral staircase and the same shit over and over and over again.

And so that can be disheartening because you're like, I thought it was going to be, I keep trekking up this mountain and then I'm at the top.

But really, it's just a spiral around the mountain and you're seeing the same shit over and over and you're just an inch higher.

And so it looks exactly the same, and it's very frustrating.

But I think,

even just like,

oh, okay, responding to that, like, this is what is to be expected.

This doesn't mean that it's all for not.

You're just coming around the bend again, coming around.

Come on,

she comes.

So, I'm coming around the mountain and coming around the mountain and coming around the mountain again.

So there's that.

Thank you for saying that.

We were supposed to record this last week and I was like, oh, we can't.

I can't.

I'm fucked.

Last week I was fucked.

You're like progress report.

Bad.

Nothing report.

Bad.

Not mid.

Bad.

Very bad.

So thank you.

I was coming around the mountain last week.

And that's why I think it's good just to be honest about that too, because it's like, fuck, you can do all this and think you're cruising, man.

And then, ooh, it doesn't mean you're not cruising.

Just means that cruising looks a little different than you thought it might look.

And sometimes you're definitely not cruising.

And that's fine too.

Again, like responding to your moment, being like, this is where I am.

Okay.

Again, what needs to happen right now?

Not given where I thought I should be, or, but like, where I am right now.

What should I do with this?

My own particular mess.

And how long it takes.

How long?

I mean, I was thinking about what would my 15-year-old self who was going into the mental hospital for eating disorder, dreaming of her future life, what would she have thought of someone with her?

She'll be fine by the time she graduates.

Man, I'm so glad we made this two-week investment.

The good news is 15-year-old.

When you're 47, you're going to start learning about this shit.

Just keep going around that mountain for 35 years.

You'll get there.

Yeah.

Again, we're all late.

We're late, but not too late.

That's all, right?

It's all.

And that's one of the ways that I've been newly appreciating marriage.

It's like Suzanne Stabile says that the worst things about us are the best things about us, and the best things about us are the worst things about us.

I've been thinking about marriage and thinking about like,

God damn, it's interminable.

And then I'm like,

hallelujah, it's interminable.

Like, I need a really,

really long runway to figure my shit out.

And if the expectation was that we were going to like button this up real quick,

it wouldn't happen for me.

I'm built with a long runway.

And so

in a way, that's really frustrating that you're like we've been at this for decade plus what the hell but then it's like we've had a decade plus and we're still not there and we're still

working

like that's such a relief it's like i get to have the luxury of years to figure this out

And that is nice.

It's not like you're going to get fired after your second email

because the needs improvement column hasn't adjusted.

So that's nice on the Coming Around the Mountain theme.

And then

I'm really psyched.

I'm psyched out of my mind about this

to throw in an elf

reference

for

when we come back in September.

I really want to

dive into this concept of tension versus conflict

because I don't think I understood that correctly for a very long time.

And I'm starting to have these ideas.

I was just reading this business book that my friend Bonzo recommended.

And because music has too many feelings, I just listen to business books, but it sounds awful.

Yeah, it's well, better than feelings.

It's called the five dysfunctions of a team.

And it is talking about tension

versus conflict and about

when there isn't a

baseline of trust, meaning that the other person on the team or the other people on the team trust

that

you believe that they are capable of great things and that any of the conflict that you bring is brought in the interest of the team and isn't a personal attack

that if you don't have that level of trust then no one will bring up conflict but

the absence of conflict means there is tension yes because you either have

no issues

or you have conflict or you have tension.

There's no such thing as

issues without conflict and without tension.

You have to choose your own adventure.

And also, isn't there no such thing as no issues?

Well, in my experience, yes.

Yeah.

I mean, right.

I mean, I was willing to keep people

for the I am enough people that maybe they have no issues.

People, issues.

Yes.

In my experience.

There has never been a lack of issues.

And so the idea of reimagining conflict as

that

is the work required to grow.

Yes.

That's all conflict is.

The work required to grow.

And in order to have conflict that works,

you need to have trust that I can bring anything to you and say, Glenn, and that thing we did last week, that was fucked because whatever.

And you're going to be like, hmm, okay, yeah.

All right.

Yeah.

She believes in me.

She loves me.

She knows I do amazing work.

And so she must be talking talking about the how we need to address something on the team great perfect

if you don't have that then you're just going to exist in an evitable sea of tension and tension is the unwillingness

to go to the work that makes

relationships work which is conflict and it just comes out and it exists and it pervades everything.

And so I really want to talk about that next season because I think that I have recognized that I have lived in a lot more tension

than I knew.

And that I have misdiagnosed

things as other things that were in fact just like a swimming sea of tension.

It's cool.

It's like you have to have that basis of trust to be able to feel the safety in any kind of conflict.

I also think that we just need to come up with a whole new word.

Me too.

Conflict is just too, it's too scary.

It's too negative.

We need a whole new word.

And the trust piece, because I mean, this totally rings true with every team I've ever played on.

We were so good at saying and giving feedback and getting feedback because we all just knew.

that we all had one goal in mind and we trusted that that was the most important thing.

And it was like, whatever means to be able to get to that bigger goal is necessary.

And you have to trust each other.

It's that stability that allows the conflict to flourish.

And in friendships and in partnerships, it's all that, right?

Like if you don't have the trust, then you intuitively know you can't handle the conflict.

That's right.

So you don't bring up the conflict.

And then you think, okay,

well, we don't have the conflict.

So that's good.

But you're not recognizing that you have

a stew that your entire relationship is marinating in tension.

That's right.

Yeah.

Because you can't just avoid the conflict and avoid the tension.

That's right.

No, tension is just conflict that's all holding its breath.

Tension is internalized conflict that no one is externalizing, which then that tension completely undermines whatever trust you were trying to build so you could have the conflict.

Totally.

Because that comes out in passive, aggressive, fucked up ways, right?

The tension does, because it won't just cease to exist.

And so then it's this cyclical nightmare where you're never even going to develop the trust that allows you to have the conflict.

Exactly.

Because tension to me is louder than conflict.

Like,

I can feel tension.

Conflict to me is talking and tension is screaming.

Neither of these things are hiding.

Like they're all present.

You can feel all of them.

If you're lucky.

I mean, I think you have developed a healthy relationship with conflict, which is why tension feels toxic to you.

I think the vast majority of us

are so normalized in tension

that

the worst case scenario is it doesn't feel like shit to you.

The worst case scenario is it feels normal and typical and like this is just what life is.

That's right.

That's how I grew up.

And honestly, I don't think I've ever been in a relationship before in my life that I trusted like you.

And so I'm able to actually have conflict with you.

I'm able to bring up conflict with you.

And it's because of that trust factor.

But in almost every other one of my relationships, I'm just tense.

I'm just eating it.

Yeah.

Wow.

I love that.

That's a doozy of a thing for I love.

I'm excited to get into it.

I think it relates to everything too.

It does.

It relates to like it responsiveness.

If you're actually being in the moment, then you're like, ooh, I sense this thing.

I'm responding to it.

And it's not like I didn't have a preconceived idea coming in and saying, I'm going to perform this thing or I'm going to get this done.

It's like, oh, wait, we have a thing here.

Yeah.

I'm going to say the thing.

Yes.

What can I, you know, it all goes back to that same idea.

Yeah.

All right, babe.

What do you feel about this?

season of the podcast of we can do our things and in your life.

I think what's so beautiful is to watch how much it's changed the three of us.

And this year, specifically for me,

you know, I loved our Tracy Ellis Ross episode.

And then one of the more recent ones that's been really like kind of digging into my bones and my DNA is episode 226, July 11th, the Enneagram, Why You Are the Way You Are with Suzanne Stabile.

All of our conversations, they leave impacts and they leave marks on us.

And watching you go through this year, I've been able to

see up close.

And in some ways, it's like a mirror for me of how I have been responding to you over the years.

You know, I've noticed and I've really realized, you know, the first couple of years of our marriage, we were so in love.

And at the time, I really believed that we were meant spiritually, soul to be together.

And I still believe that.

But at the time, I thought that you were my like other half, that you were like fixing me, that you fixed my issues.

And this year has made me perfectly aware that we found each other so that we can help each other heal our issues and become more fully human.

So watching you kind of go through your therapy and talking about it.

I'm usually like a couple of months behind you doing things because I like to have somebody else like guinea pig for me in some way.

Sorry to compare you to a guinea pig.

But

I don't know.

I just remember early on in our marriage, I was so attentive and I was a part of your anorexia and your anxiety and the way that you worked in the world.

And I was trying to

cushion you from the world in some way.

So when your anxiety would come up, I was right there to fix it.

And I'm good at that.

It's like something that I feel like good about myself for being able to help people and fix some of their issues.

But what I didn't know was I was kind of

enabling you to not get well in some ways.

And I think that your step towards healing

and the trust and the foundation that we've built over the years,

it made me start to really look at myself and maybe some of the things, some of my shadow sides, like in the Enneagram episode of Suzanne,

anger is something that sevens don't really have a relationship with.

And that couldn't have hit me more squarely in the face if she had tried.

It's one of the most true things somebody has said to me in a long time.

I'm always silverlining everything.

And I think

one of the reasons I feel like, and I've found this year, that we have found each other is because

we both need to fall more deep in love with our own selves.

We found the person, we built the foundation of a marriage, we have the trust to create not just not like a separation, but to create a space for each other to develop a deeper love for ourselves and a deeper understanding for ourselves.

And so, after the Suzanne episode, I decided: okay,

I'm going to get into therapy and figure out some of the shadow sides that I like to not explore.

I've been in therapy before in my life, and it's like meditation for me.

I do it and then I don't do it.

And I'm committed to doing some therapy

on

trying to become a really full human.

I feel lucky.

I have a beautiful life.

And

there is a part of my

personality and my existence

that I don't tap into.

I don't tap into my anger ever.

I did it on the soccer field.

Yeah.

I really did it on the soccer field.

I could make up a story of what that other team was thinking and get pissed about the story that I thought that they were thinking.

I do that every day.

I'm like, oh, that's a crazy idea.

You know, that's my whole schedule.

Every time I drive past someone.

And for some reason,

I haven't been able to develop that in the real world since retiring.

And I think that that

eventually it can come out sideways.

Well, I wonder if that was your channel, Abby.

I wonder if that was like, you didn't have to feel anger in any other parts of your life because you just funneled it all over here in soccer, where it was very effective

and

useful to you in that way.

And you're able to expel all of that from your body.

Yeah, for sure.

Just maybe not at the source.

Like those poor people who received it.

But

then you just let go of that whole

expulsion area.

Yep.

And you were just left.

It's not like the anger went away.

For sure.

I just think that like this podcast has changed my life in so many ways.

Like thinking about the way that I think about things, thinking about the information we hear from all of the guests, I feel like bit by bit, it's changing me in this really beautiful way.

And it's the way that I kind of think about

athletics, the way that I just like, I did it bit by bit, you know, every single day.

And I think that that is something that even if you're not implementing anything that you are listening to, it's getting in in here.

It is getting in here in my DNA and it's giving me other ideas and other options around

the way I might want to be in the world.

Just like even stuff that's happening with our kids, I notice the way that I respond is different than I would have five years ago.

I would have been a lot more

reactive rather than contemplative and then have a proper response.

I just think you two are my favorite people for sure.

And to be able to do this is such a gift.

But honestly, we've had so many brilliant people on this podcast that are changing my life and hopefully those who are listening.

And I feel an immense amount of gratitude and I feel really excited.

I have therapy today.

Ooh, really?

You starting today?

Well, I started last week and

it's very exciting.

She asked me on friday how would the people in your life describe you

she was asking me so many cool questions and and now we'll be able to kind of get into like the the meat of of my life and

i'm not like in crisis i'm not like ah something's wrong help

i'm like just coming around the mountain yeah i'm just i'm coming around the mountain and i'm just trying to figure out if there's something i'm missing that could make me live more content life.

We love you, Pod Squad.

We really do.

We really feel so grateful.

Your time

is so precious and that you choose to spend these hours with us every week is not something we will ever take for granted.

We will continue to bring our full selves.

Mid, our full mid-self.

Our full mid-self, right?

If you promise that,

I plan to bring my excellent self.

Oh, dear god

you too i don't buy it i can't give a mid

when she says it i'm like something in me is like no i can't okay well that's what we're we'll circle around

there you're just i'm not saying you're wrong this is my problem i think that you're right okay i like i said a few minutes ago i'm a few months behind you okay all right give me a few months and i'm so excited this is where i thrive because my teacher self gets to plan the next season so please help.

Tell us who you want to hear from.

Tell us what you want to talk about.

Talk to us.

We are at 747-200-5307 or wcdhtpod at gmail.com.

And for the next two weeks, we have four podcasts that profoundly impacted us personally.

We are explaining why those podcasts impacted us so much and then re-airing them after that explanation.

So, for the next two weeks, come back and listen to the four podcasts that just whoa, whoa, whoaed us.

And then, after those two weeks, we will be back on September 5th with our brand spanky, hanky, spanky new season.

We love you.

We'll see you next season.

And until we come back,

don't forget that we can do hard things.

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Bye.

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