214. Insecurity, Anger, ADHD & Abby’s Retirement

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They've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things, people.

Thank you, love.

Hi, everybody.

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

I already said it.

I know you did.

It was really lovely.

How are you two doing?

You first,

babe, how are you feeling this morning?

I'm actually feeling good.

For whatever reason, I feel like the last month, I've been kind of like, uh, like teetering on not good,

but not bad.

Okay.

And now I've rose into the good stage.

Oh, to what do you attribute it?

We went on a little short trip last week.

Yes.

A little vacation, just you and me.

You mean the vacation during which we found ourselves rock climbing?

Yes, you opted into that.

So I just have to remind you.

She opted in, folks.

And

we were wearing harnesses and carabiners.

And

you were a better rock climber than me.

I was like a mountain goat.

You were.

Yep, I was.

Really?

Yes.

Yeah.

No offense to the mountain goats out there.

Yeah.

When I got really up on that rock, I thought,

Glenn and Doyle, you're only hope.

There's no going back.

No one can help you.

So you just have to concentrate and you have to make it through this.

At which time I started focusing very hard on survival.

I used my little carabiner.

I carabined myself to the wire.

I stayed very, very focused.

What would you say about the presence that was required of you during that time

it was good wasn't it like it was it was a force it was strong to fairly strong like my portfolio but it's like a forced presence that's what I feel about like surfing and any kind of thing that has any danger element you are forced to be in the present you can't be thinking about anything else other than what you are doing.

It's like a moving meditation.

Okay, I definitely didn't feel like meditating.

As you were approaching Highway to the Danger Zone, were you

like with every step, like, just son of a bitch, son of a bitch?

Because there's a certain quality where you can either be like, I'm enjoying this or I shouldn't be doing this.

I'm pissed.

I'm doing this.

And now that I'm doing it, I need to be in survival mode.

Well, this is what I'm doing.

First of all, Abby and I, when we got married, we realized we had very different ideas of what a vacation is.

Okay.

What I thought of vacation was very

like, I'm going to go read a book.

It's going to be quiet.

I'm going to be horizontal a lot.

Like

Abby's

idea of a vacation is always involving some kind of carabiner or harness outfit or

centric.

Yeah.

Very vertical centric.

We're vertical, not even vertical, like flying through the air.

We're in trees.

We've been, we've climbed trees and walked across bridges and

we have we have gotten in in a balloon and and been carried behind a boat in the air while our legs stay parasailing parasailing it's not a

yeah a balloon above us we haven't done hot air balloon flying yet that's fun we have bundled ourselves in layers and layers of clothing, even when the inside is warm.

And then we have gotten on machines that push us to the top of a mountain.

And then we have jumped off the machine.

And then we have hurtled ourselves down a mountain.

And we have paid more for all these things.

What machine is this?

I don't know what you're talking about.

Skiing.

Oh, the ski lift, which by the way, it's not even the terrifying part, the ski lift part, right?

That's just getting to the terrifying part.

It's the getting off the ski lift.

That's really the doom.

Oh, my.

God.

It's like when you get on an escalator and you're like,

step, step, step, step, step, step.

I'm doing it.

I'm going.

I'm going.

Yes.

Yes.

And then no one teaches you.

I took one little like bunny slope thing and they were teaching me how to pizza and like do your little

rowing, your paddles.

What is it?

Your skis.

Your ski poles.

Okay.

So you're pizzaing them so you don't go too fast or whatever.

Well, let me tell you what they didn't teach me.

Rowing.

What to do when you fall down.

So i kid you not four different times the one time we went skiing and i'll never do it again the little emergency patrol people ski patrol yes i would wait for them i would lay fall down and then i would just pull my phone out of my little ski pants and just lay there staring at the sky and play with my phone until a ski patrol came in

because there was no freaking way i was getting up

So I would just be on Instagram, just laying there on my ass.

So, so, in fact, a very horizontal vacation.

Yeah, very horizontal.

I can make anything horizontal.

I'm very creative.

But here's the thing.

I'm going to bring this back to my therapy because that's what I do.

All right.

I think that one of my challenges

is that I don't have a lot of agency in my body.

I do not trust that I'm going to be able to do shit.

physical things.

And so then when I try them, I don't know what I'm doing and I feel vulnerable and embarrassed.

And so then I just quit and shut down.

So, like, even if Abby wants to play catch, because

people want to play fucking catch when they're 40 years old,

something to do.

I don't want to play catch.

I don't know how to catch the ball.

I feel stupid.

All right.

Apparently, everyone else has been in catching class for 20 years.

I don't know how to catch the ball.

I don't know how to throw the ball.

So, the point is, when we approached this rock mountain, rock climbing situation, I thought of it as: here's an opportunity for for me to practice agency in my body and to try to just look stupid and feel scared and just like do it anyway and

see if I can trust my body to do something hard.

And I did do it.

How did it go?

Yeah.

Yeah, it went really well.

And I did well.

What I don't really still understand is the point.

Really?

Are you serious?

Yeah, we climb the mountain.

It's very scary.

I'm doing it.

I'm doing it.

I'm not dying.

And And then I get to the top and I'm like, well, I did that thing and I didn't die.

And that was good.

And this view is nice.

But honestly, I was on the ground before, you know, before I started this,

before this whole rigma roll that cost me several hundred dollars.

Yeah, but you're not doing it just to be done with it.

Like you really got nothing out of it.

The fact that you are working on embodiment, the fact that you went up there, because, you know, a couple of years ago when we went skiing, this is pre-therapy

so

now you are kind of in your body and you were able to do this thing i didn't see for one second you were like flailing or embarrassing did you feel yeah i did feel embarrassed several times because i when i feel vulnerable when i couldn't find a toe hold or i couldn't i would get angry i get angry inside and frustrated

and that is a a cycle for me when i'm scared i get scary when i'm vulnerable I get mad because I think, what the fuck am I doing on this rock?

I shouldn't be on this rock.

No one should be on this rock.

You put me on this rock.

Yes, yes.

Whose fault is it that I'm on this rock?

So working through that and staying with the vulnerability and just being like, actually, I just have to find a toe hold right now.

And I can take my time and I can look stupid, but I can do it was really, it was helpful for me.

And a couple things.

that I did learn that I felt like were good and helpful is that when we were crossing this one terrifying bridge, it was called a suspension bridge or something.

and it was very rickety and bouncy.

And I was terrified.

And the dude who was crossing it turned back and yelled, Don't worry, there's only as much bounce as you create.

And I thought, well, if that's not true, I've been fucking Tigger my whole life, just bouncing, bouncing, bouncing, wondering why everything's so bouncy.

Right.

So you know what I'm saying?

There's sometimes there's only as much anxiety as we create in our bodies.

Yeah.

Right.

So you didn't feel when you got done with that, like, I did that.

Good job, Glennon.

I mean, I did feel like I did that.

But like, if I were had been laying at the pool reading, I would have been like, I'm doing this.

I think there's probably things that are soaking in over time that I'm not like seeing yet.

I was excited to have a vulnerable, different experience with you.

I was excited to learn about the plants.

Lots of metaphors there.

But yeah, so that's that.

Sissy, how are you doing?

Wow.

Well, I just realized something

that

is a real takeaway for me.

Wow.

In your conversation, you said, what I still don't understand

is the point.

And I think what I'm going to commission, you know how people have like live, laugh, love,

kitchen.

the wood signs all over their house.

I'm going to get one that says that.

What I still don't understand.

What I still don't understand is the point.

I think that's universally applicable to really everything.

I can do it.

I just don't understand what the point is.

Also,

I think what you were talking about with the catching the ball or whatever, or doing any of these physical things, I feel like something we do is we preempt

our

anxiety or embarrassment by becoming a kind of caricature of someone who can't do the thing.

Like,

I can't catch this ball.

I can't.

And if I present that caricature, then it's funny and I don't look like someone who is actually trying and maybe struggling to catch the ball.

And so I think it's kind of like a pretense in some ways that we do that.

It just made a connection to me with the sex episodes where we're talking about like, what is it so

where you feel so frozen, like you can't talk.

And then you have this like baby voice.

It's like the same idea.

It's like, it's so vulnerable to show that I'm trying or that I might be actually meaning to do this thing that I'm doing that I have to just be like, I can't do it.

I can't talk during sex.

I can't.

It's like a connection.

That is the conversation we had after.

She was like, why is it so weird for you to do those things?

Like

try this physical thing or play, try to play catch or like try to play pickleball with the family.

They're all very athletic.

It's because I can either do that caricature

or I can actually

try really hard and trying really hard anything is so vulnerable.

This is me trying.

This is me trying is so vulnerable.

I feel like that with the podcast sometimes.

Anything I'm doing, I'm like, oh my God, this is so embarrassing.

I'm trying so hard.

And I feel like, what is that Taylor Swift line?

Like, I've never been a natural.

All I do is try, try, try.

Like

I'm flailing about trying so often in my life that what now I'm going to go do it on the fucking pickleball court too.

And it's so obvious because my, my limbs are literally flailing and other people look like they can do it easier.

I just think it's the ultimate like uncool is looking like you're trying so hard, which is obviously what makes it so cool.

Oh my gosh, I couldn't disagree more.

I think like the most cool thing is people trying.

Me too, but it's like the belief system is.

No, I know.

And I know that the whole caricature thing is a thing, especially for people who are trying something very new.

I guess my philosophy in life is like to try your best every thing you do, like to try to become an expert at it.

Yeah.

I wonder if there's some like gender stuff in there because you were always physical and you weren't a sideline person.

I was a sideline person.

I was like the girl who would watch her boyfriend play video games.

I know we've talked about that before.

Like even if someone was playing a video game, I wouldn't play it.

I just was like used to being the person on the side and I didn't get a lot of practice.

Yeah, I guess it's about what you think you're good at, right?

Like school was never something that I was confident in.

And so that's definitely something that I probably joked with that I like or like reading.

Yeah, like I'm a shitty student.

I'm like a bad reader, slow.

And so I'm just like, oh, yeah, like that's, and so I probably make jokes around that.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Right.

Because if you're like, my

defense against feeling embarrassed or being bad at something is making a joke about how shitty I am at it.

Totally.

Then you don't try it.

It's not necessarily true that you're bad at those things.

You're bad at them because you don't engage in them.

That's right.

But you don't engage with them because you're scared to engage with them.

And then it becomes this just like snowballs.

And that's how women end up not knowing what they like.

That's right.

They don't try shit that

feels like they could be embarrassed doing it.

Yeah.

And that's why keeping girls in sports is so

important.

Your thing would be like schooly, brainy reading,

academia.

My thing would be physical things.

It's so funny.

And it's like we're polar opposites.

Of course.

Which is so interesting.

What do you think is the thing for you that you aren't super comfortable with?

So you don't try

as much as might be beneficial for you to have a full human experience.

I think it's the exploring sexual stuff.

I feel like there is so much potential to be like hugely embarrassed in exploring sexuality.

It's one of the only areas where I feel like I am

unexplored terrain in terms of being like,

what about that?

What about this?

Have I ever thought about what I wanted?

I'm pretty clear on what I want in every other part of my life.

I just haven't thought.

I haven't really thought about it.

When I I think about it, I'm like, yikes, McBikes.

Yikes, McBikes.

Very cool.

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All right, well, we're going to get to some pod squad questions today.

Very thrilled about that.

We haven't done anything.

These are some of my favorite days.

Yeah, y'all, the inbox of our answering machine.

Is that what they still call them?

Okay.

Is just a treasure trove of the most beautiful questions, most beautiful stories.

Someday we're going to figure out how to use all of this gold that the pod squad just sends into us every single day.

But for today, we're just going to grab some and see.

We never have any answers, We just have a lot of responses

and thoughts and ideas.

Oh, get it?

Call and response.

Call and they'll get a response.

Very good.

And we respond.

Very good.

Sometimes I think things are so clever in my head.

And when I say them, I'm like, that wasn't that clever.

Let's hear our first one.

Hi, Gwennen.

My question is, when you knew

that you needed to get a divorce in order to have space so that you could love Craig again

or

maybe not again but you know when that was all happening but before

you guys were able to have separation and space and you were still feeling so angry like what did you do with that anger like I'm so angry

and there's a end date coming up but it's still months away I still have to be in close proximity with this person, and

I don't want to feel this way.

I know that you're supposed to feel your feelings, but

it fucking sucks

being so angry.

Just wondering if you

had some advice, and thank you so much.

I don't know exactly where to start with this one because I've been on such

an anger journey with this literal situation that she's discussing i mean i have some different thoughts about anger the first thing i think about is

we have a joke with sister that

you know that thing where you can't tell a certain person in your life certain things that other people have done to you or that you're mad about because

You know that

your fury at them might pass, but you have that one person who so has your back there's that meme that's like i would like to take you back but i already told my sister what you did

you can't really disclose until you're ready to really release that person from yeah because it's over or hear or hear about it every day for the rest of your life yeah and so

sometimes when i talk about that about

Just that phenomenon of having someone who has your back so totally that they will create a wall of fury to protect you from something that might hurt you.

People feel jealous of that, right?

God, I wish I had a sister that would do that.

I wish I had a best friend that would do that.

I wish I had, and that is true.

It is a very lucky, wonderful thing.

But I also think that it is true that we all have that

fierce protector inside of ourselves.

It's like

this person

who has been hurt so badly by this other person,

by her soon-to-be ex, has that sister protector inside of her.

And that

is her anger.

So her anger is

the part of her

that knows

that her boundaries have been crossed, that her field of honor has been stepped on, that she has been hurt, and that now the boundary needs to change.

So, until the boundary changes,

that part of her is going to rage

to protect her.

To ensure that what needs to be done is done.

That's right.

To reestablish that boundary.

Yeah.

And until then, is a fucking guard dog.

It's like, no, like, I'm protecting you.

I'm protecting you.

I'm protecting you.

And so

that anger that she is feeling when she comes into what is too close of proximity to feel comfortable for her guard dog inside

is correct.

That is an

protection, right?

That is a signal that's saying, a part of her that's saying, we're not safe, we're not safe, we're not safe, we're not safe.

There's a part of me that wants to say to her, just like turn to that part of you and say, thank you.

Like, we've got this, we've got this.

And sometimes I feel like with women, especially,

and I only say this because I've had this specific conversation with several women that I trust deeply recently.

It is not sometimes the actual anger that feels

too painful to bear.

It's the feeling that we're not supposed to have that anger.

So we're resisting that anger.

So we're trying to push it away.

So we're trying to fix it.

So we're trying to shame ourselves for feeling it that becomes two forces like pushing against each other.

That's what becomes insufferable.

Because actually, like I've been taught to, when you, so this woman's in the kitchen with her partner and and and this woman feels the anger come up and she turns toward it and like loosens up and is like okay so what is that?

Oh, usually it feels like it really is an emotion.

So it's like energy and motion in your body.

What does it feel like?

It feels like my chest is clenching up a little bit.

I'm having thoughts because I'm remembering that I'm pissed about this.

I'm pissed about this.

I'm pissed about this.

My hands are sweating a little bit.

And that's it.

That's it.

That's all that anger feels like.

Unless, of course, then there's another voice saying, don't feel angry.

Why do you feel angry?

Of course, you know why you feel angry because you have an internal protective self that knows you've been hurt by this person and is not going to calm down and is not going to feel peace until you have

established a new boundary to keep yourself safe enough for that part of you to relax.

So, actually, you do not want that anger to be shamed away or to repress.

That's a part of you that is activated

to keep you safe,

right?

To give you important information.

I wonder if, because I'm just thinking as you're talking that

the phenomenon of

activated anger and what that part is playing in our lives.

So for example, if you have a group of friends and you get in a fight with one of them,

you

often

feel the need to voice that anger, get it out there because you're basically like defending your position and you need need it to be known and you want others to see you when really at the end of the day, the original deed has been done.

It's like that person wronged me.

I have a new boundary with that person.

And now I have that information and I'm establishing that to take care of myself.

But all the rest of the stuff is like trying to justify yourself, trying to like get people to understand.

And so I wonder if you're in this position where it's two of you.

I wonder if there's some of that that dynamics going on where, you know, are people from the outside being like, you should forgive him?

Or like, what is that anger operating against?

Is it the internal conflict that you just talked about where I should be more gracious, I should be more forgiving, or is it coming from other places?

Because I feel like if you can turn to your anger and say, thank you for protecting me, you are an amazing guard dog.

And I promise you that we are not equivocating here.

I promise you that whether you choose to rage and bark for the next three months or whether you wish to be just still and resolute inside of me, I'm going to get us out of here.

So like you don't need to bark anymore at me to remind me I've got you and we're getting out.

A guard dog barks because they need you to be aware that something's happening and do something about it.

But if there's a way that you can assure yourself that you're not going to go back on it,

then maybe you can have more peace because sometimes it's internal, like,

I need to rage because I'm worried I'm going to go back against myself.

Yes, I think that that's real.

I can say for me, my anger didn't stop until my internal like

rage

did not abate.

I don't think anger knows there's a plan.

That's all I know.

Like, I don't think that internal anger can, like a dog wouldn't understand if you were like, it would keep, it would keep keep barking.

Went down and removed the person.

I think it would help.

Like, I think that helps, but I think there's still something that is just like animal-like inside you that doesn't intellectualize.

So, it can't understand that you're in three weeks, you're going to be moving out or whatever.

Because I didn't feel

it really settle, it really like

calm down, stop barking until Craig and I signed our divorce papers.

Like on the elevator down from, we were together and we were in the elevator and we were good, like we were cool, we were whatever.

But I didn't feel like tender

again

until

after it was signed.

I think that there is something really positive to look at when we talk about anger.

Anger is like the clue.

It's like, it's like the rocket ship to what we're trying to get to, which is acceptance.

Sadness will come along the way, and being able to move on.

And so, when we are angry, right?

I know that people get angry in relationships, and this is not the kind of anger we're talking about.

We're talking about like the betrayal, detective anger, the kind of anger that is forcing you to make a change in your life, right?

And anger is like fuel that allows you to get to different places along the path of healing.

So good.

Right.

And like, I believe deeply because I don't get angry often.

But when I do, I try to get straight to the sadness as fast as I can.

And the only way I've ever learned to be able to do that is by accepting what has happened

as fast as possible.

And that's not easy.

Reestablishing boundaries, I totally believe all of what you were just saying.

But in order to really get into the rocket ship and get and move through this,

having to accept what has happened, that's been the hardest thing for me to do.

That's true.

So, the rethinking about it and the rumination over and over, and every time you see the person, it triggers you.

Like, all of that stuff is to me

just a lack of acceptance.

And you might not be able to accept the situation by still being inside of it.

And maybe it's what you're saying is making me so like anger has energy.

Yes.

Sadness,

like in order to get out of a relationship, like this woman is trying to do, it takes such incredible energy.

It's like, it's so hard.

It's damn near impossible.

Rearranging your life, rearranging your finances, trying to figure out how you're going to get forward, dealing with you have kids, your family, your friends, the amount of energy it takes.

If you were only left with sadness or depression during that time, you would not have the fire that is required to begin again, to have another big bang, like to begin another universe.

So could we look at anger anger too as not only a protector, a guard dog, but the fuel that like is given to us in order to make change?

Because if not, we'd just lay down and cry.

That's right.

Yeah.

Just give up.

Yeah.

The specific question is, what did I do with it beforehand?

And I would just end by saying the truth of the matter is that I tried so hard to not be angry.

that

I would be angry at myself for being angry at Craig.

My mind was a cluster fuck fuck about it, like layers of inception, shame, and anger.

But what my body would never do is listen to my brain.

So,

what would happen is that Craig would reach out to me and my body, I would recoil.

My body was not letting me out of it, is all that I can say.

Like, my body was like, I don't know how you're going to try to rationalize this in your brain, but good luck getting me on board.

The truth that I did not feel safe,

it didn't matter how many therapists, how many stories, how many justifications, how much religious shame about forgiveness.

None of it mattered.

At the end of the day, my body was saying, we are not safe.

We need a new boundary, and we're not going to relax until you get it for us.

I think we just make friends with and respect the anger.

And we know that no matter what we say to it, it is not going to go away until we've done what it needs us to do for it yep

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Okay, let's do Kathy.

My name is Kathy, and I'm raising two beautiful boys who are both neuroatypical.

My youngest has ADHD, and my oldest is being tested soon for a high-functioning autism spectrum disorder.

And he is a teenager going into high school, so he's very high-functioning, but struggles socially.

And particularly, my question is around him.

I am a recovering codependent and trying to parent a teenager who can't really sense certain social situations the way that a neurotypical teenager would be able to.

So I feel like I have to have some pretty tight reins on him, you know, like on his phone and on his relationships and trying to be involved, but I'm also painfully aware of the fact that I'm codependent and

that those things might just be challenging for me anyway, even if he was completely neurotypical.

So I'm just wondering how you balance control, how to know whether you're holding the reins too tight when it comes to raising kids, especially kids that need a little extra help.

I hope that makes sense.

Thank you so much.

Those are big questions.

The big questions.

And I think they probably

apply

to

every kid.

I will say that I do not have

direct experience having a kid with autism, but I do, as Kathy is going through right now, do have the experience of testing for it and having it be within the ecosystem of possibility.

And we do have

neuroatypicality in our home.

And it sounds like they both have diagnosed ADHD.

I have found that the hardest part about this is that

we are given this message, okay, your child has a disability.

Your child needs help and needs support and may need medication.

And we need to build in structures to support them.

And so every alarm is going off in your head that they need a lot of help.

And we talk about this specifically in the context of school a lot.

And down the road from school is career, right?

So we're,

what is the 504?

What is the IEP?

What are all of the supports and structures we can build in to make things okay for them?

And we never talk about it outside of that ecosystem in terms of the

social supports, the role it plays in a family unit.

It's like it starts and ends at school and none of the rest is talked about.

And so first, I would just like to

mention the school piece of it.

I am of the belief that, yes, those supports are necessary.

And I know that it's a disability.

And I know that there's a lot that is wonderful about naming things a disability and getting the services you need.

I also know that a very large percentage of the world is diagnosed with ADHD and that there are people that are absolutely thriving who have ADHD.

They may not thrive in school.

I have had to make adjustments that

they may not get the test scores and the grades that match up to

what were my previous expectations or their capabilities, that their

level of intellect will not be reflected in their school scores and that's a hard pill to swallow.

But once you do, I think it becomes easier.

And

I've just tried to accept that if they can understand who they are and if they can live in who they are without self-medicating, then they will be absolutely fine in the long run.

If you think about the people that have ADHD, that have found their way into their passion, you've got Shannon Watts, who credits her ADHD with being able to hyper-focus to the extent of taking on the NRA and virtually taking them down with mom's demand demand action.

Emma Watson, Simone Biles, Lisa Ling, Justin Timberlake, he has OCD, NADD.

Dave Pilkey started writing his

incredibly successful dogman books while he was in detention at school, because that's where he was put because they didn't know what to do with him.

Bill Gates said he was always having difficulty concentrating and learning things in school.

I mean, it's all right.

Just get through school and have your kid understand how their brain works and they will be fine.

Outside of school,

it's really hard because it's like you need to let them struggle to learn their own competencies.

Like they need to learn natural consequences of what happens, but they also need more support, which sometimes comes really close to looking like you're saving them.

from their natural consequences.

When my kid leaves for baseball, it's like, you're 10 years old.

You've got to learn to know that you have all your stuff.

But I'm like, is that reasonable for someone with ADHD?

Where is the line between where you're kind of coddling them and saving them from learning and also

being like, but this is, this is what you're dealing with in life.

Whether it's fair or not, you're going to have to be able to make this work for you at some point.

I don't think there's an easy answer and it's really freaking hard.

And the only thing that I have learned that

helps is that

what I found I was doing so much is being so scared for the natural consequences that I was being in a relationship with my son's behaviors and struggles and not in a relationship with him.

That every time something would happen, I would say, well, what did they say?

Are they mad?

Are you in trouble?

What?

And so I was constantly responding to that instead of responding to him as a human and trying to

make a relationship with him as a human.

And we talked about this in episode 166 that was about

my change from trying to use my love to help him

and instead using my love to love him.

And the thing that

we know about kids with ADHD is they often feel like they're letting others down and they often feel like they're doing things wrong and they often feel like they are not quote unquote good.

And so if you are just having a relationship with struggles and behaviors, you are feeding into that idea that they are not good, even though everything in your body is trying to make them be okay and good.

They can believe that they are not.

The thing that has worked really well in our family is that

something I didn't know before the diagnoses is that if your kid has ADHD, there's a 40% chance at least that you or the other parent will have ADHD.

And

will have it or have it.

Well,

has it, whether it's diagnosed.

And that number is probably higher because so many of us growing up in a different era, we're not diagnosed.

So I haven't gone through the process yet.

I'm going to, but my husband

has and he has ADHD.

And so I think that's a gift you can give your kid if you're willing to go through and find out the way you work, that we are able to say

to Bobby, your brain works the way your dad's brain works in this way.

And he doesn't feel othered and he doesn't feel like there's something wrong with him that he's not going to be able to figure out life because he looks at his dad and he's like, you figured out life.

And I think that helps the whole family, you know, like

John takes his medicine, Bobby takes his medicine.

It's not like he's the person that there's something wrong with.

Which incidentally, if you are someone in the family who does not have ADHD and you have a child with ADHD,

there is a high percentage that your partner will have ADHD.

And it's something that's not talked about a lot.

But when you are the singular parent who does not have it,

it is a huge struggle because what kids with ADHD need is they need consistency, they need schedules, they need structure, and it becomes overwhelming.

And so

we actually concurrently with Bobby's medication, John got back on his, which he hadn't been in since college.

And that has been a giant gift to me because I feel like he can more actively participate in the consistency when he couldn't before.

I think it's a real setup and a lot of extent because it's like, they have a disability.

They need tons of help and they need to learn to deal with what they've got.

And you can't be saving them from everything.

And it's not an answer other than to say it's really fucking hard, Kathy.

And

I think the key thing is just making sure they know

that your fear

for what their life is going to look like doesn't become their fear for what their life is going to look like.

And that whatever is happening with them

is going to be what's happening with them forever.

So you can't save them from that.

You can only help them cope and navigate and not believe that they are bad.

Because if they believe that they are bad or if they believe that whatever's happening in their life is

wrong,

then they are going to start self-medicating.

And then the ADHD is going to be the least of our problems.

If our culture is based upon good kids are the ones who sit for eight hours, are the ones who raise their hand, are the ones who are listening constantly, are the ones who are on time, are the ones who are not talking back.

We have a very particular cultural idea about what a good kid is.

If these neurological differences keep a kid from even being

it being possible for them to match the culture's idea of what goodness is.

How does a family, how do you

still create the idea of goodness, what a family then defines as goodness?

How do you redefine it?

How do you say to a kid, I know that you're going to get every because it's not that they're not getting those messages, that they're just like pulling them out of thin air.

They are getting those messages.

I was a teacher.

I know those are the kids who have to go to the principal's office, who people kids roll their eyes at, who are disruptive in air quotes, right?

Like,

besides the fact that no kids should be having to sit for eight hours, but that's a different story.

How does a family then, it almost feels that it would be necessary to actually name that in a family whose kids can't match that and say, we have a different standard

for goodness and success and love.

Because in that world out there, of course, I think about the queer kids, whoever in a home is not going to be affirmed out there,

how do you create a,

you know, like Michelle Obama says, go out in the world, go ahead, but come here.

Here's where we like you.

Yeah.

What do we do to create that?

And what have you seen work in your home?

I think in some ways it really does start with the blessing of this being hereditary is that your kids know and believe that you are good.

Yeah.

And when you can make a parallel

to say,

our only goal is to understand you.

And our only goal is to help you align

yourself with your own values.

So what are the values I see in you are these?

And

you look at your dad.

See how he does.

See how he can look at anyone's baseball swing.

And no one else can do this.

But within looking at a baseball swing for 20 seconds he can diagnose down to the twitch of a fingernail the way that that child needs to adjust their swing to be successful that's because of the way his brain works and your brain works like that too you know how you can remember every single baseball statistic that of every game you've ever played in that's the way your brain works i can't do that it's seeing them love that and not just seeing the part that that gives you grief it's seeing the way their brains work and seeing the gifts.

It's talking about Shannon Watts.

See how much you care about violence in schools.

See how deeply it affects you.

That's the beauty of your brain.

And you're going to be able to do whatever you want because of that.

And also, let me show you the other parts of the way your brain works.

Let me show you why things happen at school that you don't want to happen.

It's because impulsivity is a thing for you.

So let's talk about what works for you in that and what doesn't.

And I I know you care about being a good teammate.

I know that you want nothing more than to be a good teammate to your friends.

And also

when something bad happens on the field, you will sometimes react in a way that is inconsistent with your values

to be a good friend.

So what can we practice to help you align your behavior with your values?

I love it.

And also, like when, honestly,

it's horrible for me to say, but when I was in a relationship with his behaviors and his struggles

there was less for me to see to

love and adore and protect of course but when i put down that mantle of having to be in a relationship with his struggles and his challenges it opened my eyes to everything that is so beautiful that i want to protect in him as opposed to protecting

from him yes

oh god Sissy, you are such a beautiful mother.

I know.

I just learned a lot

about a person, a mother that I want to be.

Yeah, because it's like everything.

It's not like some people have things that are bad and some people have things that are good.

We all have things.

And there's ways that that thing is challenging.

And there's ways that that thing is beautiful.

And it's like this thing that you have in your life.

It is going to make life hard.

And it could also be the thing that makes your life extraordinary.

And here's all that shit on either side.

And we talk about that too from my, the way my brain works.

Guess what I was very, very, very

good at school.

I did all the shit you were supposed to do.

I never got in trouble.

And guess what?

The tricky side of that equation is you're so focused on performing.

that you're not really sure what is of you and what is expected of you.

Anyone who doesn't think there is a flip side of every gift or challenge is fooling themselves.

And every freaking thing that our kids happen to our kids is like just a sledgehammer of every

worldview, everything we've ever had for ourselves.

So just being someone who has created such an identity on being good and staying within the lines and then having children who are constantly coloring outside of the lines, How has that changed your

perception of

worthiness in the world?

Like how to walk on the earth?

Because I imagine that they have been little teachers for you.

Also, do you find yourself

coloring outside of the lines more or being like, fuck you, world, I actually don't care about your ideas of goodness anymore?

It was really, really, really hard.

I mean, I'm not trying to rose color it for the first

two years.

It was pretty devastating to me because

I was like, what does this mean he won't be able to do?

How will his choices be limited?

Will he not be able to go to the schools that I went to?

It's all of that just like off the table.

But I think in a roundabout way,

it liberated me early

from

the fiction that others maybe are able to carry for longer, which is that

your kids,

the good things that they do are a reflection of you.

The bad things that they do are a reflection of you.

Who they become is about you.

And

in this beautiful way,

I was disabused of that

quite early because I'm like, this is a whole ass human being

that is who they are.

And and how limiting that would be to be like, oh, that part is me.

Oh, this is here.

Here we go down this path.

It worked for me.

You can't love them.

At least you have a chance to love your children because you cannot love something that you believe is a reflection of you.

Yes.

And I'm coming at it with a real, genuine ass curiosity

because beginner's mind, every damn beginner's mind.

Because I'm like, what I don't understand is the point.

They're going to be okay.

Yeah.

I firmly believe that they're going to be okay.

Yeah.

Firmly.

And I think if you just believe that, then you can just put that aside.

They're going to be okay.

Okay.

Bill Gates is okay.

Once you just decide that they're going to be okay, it takes the weight off of the rest of it.

Now your job is to just love them and help them navigate, which by the way, incidentally, is the job of every parent.

Yeah.

And just to see them as separate entities that you do not completely understand.

Yeah.

And that you're not superior to.

Like I, there's things that they can do that I could never do.

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Okay, let's hear from Chris.

Hi, sister and Abby and Glennon.

This is Chris.

My question for Abby is, is, I have always wondered, Abby went from, you know,

superstar athlete, the world watching her in all of those high-powered soccer games, and then she retired.

And then her identity, I think, had to shift and change.

Certainly, now she's a mom and all these other things and an advocate.

And I'm interested in, you know, a month after retirement, what did it feel like for Abby?

You know,

was she on the struggle bus?

Was it tough?

Was it, did she know it was coming and so it was easier?

Just kind of interested in that whole identity shift thing.

I have to believe it was huge.

Love you guys.

Talk to you later.

Bye.

Chris.

What a good question.

Well,

a month after my retirement, I was

basically drinking myself to death.

Struggle bus.

Struggle bus.

Super check.

Super easy time there.

I was terrified of retiring.

I didn't know

what kind of a life that I wanted to live.

And I was also going through a divorce.

Nobody talks about that transition enough.

I think that

we all just assume we're going to like sail off into the retirement sunset.

But I was 35 years old and I hadn't made enough money.

So I had to like have it find a new career, a job.

And I actually don't know if I have ever been so

untethered in my life.

And I think that that was a big reason why I was turning to alcohol and struggling to figure out what I wanted because for so long it was so clear.

It was so easy.

I had this road that I traveled down and I was like a feminist and I was a sports star and I was just doing everything that I had dreamt of doing.

How do you top that?

Like really?

That was a big concern of mine.

I will never do something that will give me this much joy, which is why it was so terrifying.

It's like, is the rest of my life just a decline?

That's it.

Is this as good as it gets?

That's a horrific thought.

Luckily, I got sober a couple of months after my retirement.

And that for me changed everything.

It allowed me to deal with the feelings of terror, to deal with the confusion, to just let myself be a little untethered for a while.

And then we meet, I become kind of an insta-mom.

And I was able to kind of jump into a new life because of my soriety.

I could start fresh.

It was like the Etcha sketch where I just shook, shook the thing up and it was clean slate.

And I actually feel like, and this is, this is, I don't know how, if this is just special to me, how my brain works, but I decided, okay, I'm going to become the best parent in the world.

Gold medal parent.

Yeah.

I know that that's a not possible and so ridiculous thing to think or say, but that's just how I, my brain works.

And so, you know, I got into like the car line and chit-chatting with the parents at the school.

And

she was like, I'm Glennon's wife.

They were like, who's Glennon?

Yeah.

They were like, she's never come to chit chat before.

Yeah, but I do think that it took me about two years to settle into this new identity.

In fact, both of you came down to Florida where we were living at the time to do the Abbey Summit.

Do you remember the summit?

Oh, yeah.

And I had to like, I had to like figure out how to be a person.

I didn't know how to like do

adulting.

Like, what's a calendar?

What's a schedule?

Like, it was literally like very kind of how to make a list.

And then we had a to-do list.

And we put a plan together around what are the things that I enjoyed doing.

What did I love?

What was I good at?

Now, fast forward to right now today, I did not have podcaster on my list of things that I thought would be my life.

But I think that that's what's so beautiful around the time of transition that I was in.

I was able to kind of go and create, rather than be sad about what I left,

I've been able to step into and co-create a totally different life

and

one that I think I was more meant for than a soccer player life.

That was a very unique kind of path.

And I think very few people are capable of doing it, not because they're not good enough at it, but because it requires a different kind of personality, a different kind of mindset to be able to travel and be on the road for 300 days a year and not have stability and not have security and a job.

I felt like my body

and my heart and my soul came home in a way that I had never really felt before.

So yes, it was terrifying, that transition.

Yes, it was very scary.

But I was able to find people around me that could support me through that walk home to myself in a way.

I don't know.

That was kind of boring.

Are you kidding?

It's so beautiful.

Why do you think that what you say is boring?

Is this like you're, you feel vulnerable like when you're rock climbing?

This is your caricature?

Is this when you're rocking, this is your caricature?

This is, you feel like you're rock climbing.

Okay.

So I have to say this.

Oh, God.

You two

are like the best podcasters in the world to me.

Okay.

The way that you craft your responses and you have all of these analogies and amazing answers.

I just like talk from my heart.

And so there are times that when I start going, I realize I have made no sense.

It's just been super honest from where I'm at.

And so I do get a moment where I feel like this isn't as good as their answers.

Babe,

I feel certain

that if we

pulled the pod squad

and said, who is it on this pod that makes your heart open the most that you adore?

I think they'd probably try to say it in a way that didn't hurt our feelings because that's how they are.

But I believe that you are the heart,

that you are.

But some people aren't coming for the heart, right?

And I respect that.

Like, I think that all three of us appeal to different parts of people as they're listening.

You're everyone's favorite.

You're everyone's favorite.

I don't want to talk about it anymore.

But I have like, I do.

I have like an actual, you know, insecurity around it at times.

And I think that it comes out when I have to answer some of these things.

Well, now you know how I feel when I'm wearing a carabiner and how sister feels when she's trying to be naked in bed and have sex.

We all have our challenges.

Okay.

I love you.

I love you too.

We can do hard things.

Cecy, I love you.

I love doing this.

I love you so much, Abby.

I love you, G-Bird.

I love you, Pod Squad.

Can't believe we get to do this.

Bye.

See you next time.

Bye, Cycle.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us.

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I give you Tish Milton and Brandy Carlisle.

I walked through fire, I came out the other side.

I chased desire,

I made sure I got what's mine,

and I continue

to believe

that I'm the one for me.

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line.

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on map.

A final destination

we lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do a heart gain.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem,

sometimes things fall apart.

And I continue to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took some time,

but I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

A final destination

we lack.

We stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to belong.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a hard pain.

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay with that.

Stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do hard things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do

hard

things.