182. Glennon Update: Lessons from Therapy

Speaker 1 One thing I love about our listeners is how industrious all of you are. The stories we hear about you guys going off on your own and starting your own ventures like we did, it's truly inspiring.

Speaker 1 It's a big part of why NetSuite came to us as a sponsor. NetSuite offers real-time data and insights for so many business owners, and by that I mean over 42,000 businesses.

Speaker 1 NetSuite offers the number one AI-powered cloud ERP. Think of it as a central nervous system for your business.

Speaker 1 Instead of juggling separate tools for accounting here, HR there, inventory somewhere else, NetSuite pulls everything into one seamless platform.

Speaker 1 That means you finally have one source of truth, real visibility, real control, and the power to make smarter decisions faster.

Speaker 1 With real-time data and forecasting, you're not just reacting to what already happened, you're planning for what's next.

Speaker 1 And whether your company is bringing in a few million or hundreds of millions, NetSuite scales with you.

Speaker 1 It helps you tackle today's challenges and chase down tomorrow's opportunities without missing a beat.

Speaker 1 Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com/slash hard things.

Speaker 1 The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/slash hard things.

Speaker 1 Netsuite.com/slash hard things.

Speaker 2 I walked through fire, I came out

Speaker 2 the other side.

Speaker 1 Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. We're just always amazed that you come back.
And I think Lennon's probably going to talk a lot in this episode. And we're going to be here with you.

Speaker 1 And that's why I wanted to start this podcast so I could get a word in edge-wise.

Speaker 2 So are you done now talking? That's all. That's all I had.
So

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 decided that it might be good to, every once in a while, while come on and talk about what is going on with my recovery and my process in recovery. And here's why

Speaker 2 I'm planning to do this:

Speaker 2 I have been through different sorts of recoveries in my life, and

Speaker 2 it is amazing. It is

Speaker 2 very hard and uncomfortable, but it kind of is just like how to be a human.

Speaker 2 And with all of our adulting in the world, we forget, I think, just the basics of how to be a tender, vulnerable human on the planet.

Speaker 2 And it is a magical, wonderful thing to kind of start over with beginner's mind, which is kind of what recovery is.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it just feels like becoming a little bit more human. I don't know.
And there are many things that I'm doing in recovery that are just personal to me.

Speaker 2 But as always, there's also a lot that is about everyone.

Speaker 2 So that's what I try to always do in my work, whether it's on the page or the podcast is like, okay, how is this thing about me about all of us?

Speaker 2 And what kind of

Speaker 2 freedom can I get talking about it and service can I provide talking about it?

Speaker 2 So that's what I'm going to try to do do with these few kind of update episodes. Just what am I learning and what parts of it am I desperate to tell all of you about?

Speaker 2 Because I think that it might serve all of us. And then you all are just going to have to tell me when it gets really boring because I have no concept of like, I'm in it.
Okay. I'm in it.

Speaker 2 This is what I'm living, breathing, sleeping. And so you'll just have to tell me when it and if it goes off the rails.
Can I ask you a question? Yes, ma'am.

Speaker 1 What

Speaker 1 is it serving you by telling the people?

Speaker 2 That's

Speaker 2 a great question. So number one, it helps me organize it a little bit.
It can feel like a bunch of fleeting ideas that I'm not,

Speaker 2 I'm learning each day and I'm thinking about and then they're gone and I can't get them back and like I'm grasping for them again. I'm a teacher.
I'm a third grade teacher at heart.

Speaker 2 That's how I know things is I figure out how would I teach this? That's how I learned about the solar system and continents. It's like, how do I teach this to my babies?

Speaker 2 They always say, you don't really know something until you can explain it.

Speaker 1 Teach what you wish to know.

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. It feels like I'm.
Somebody said that, not me.

Speaker 2 When I'm figuring out how to share it, it feels like I'm really, I really can learn it and know it.

Speaker 1 That makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 3 It's reporting from the front lines. Yeah.
It's like you're a war correspondent.

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 From the continent of recovery.

Speaker 3 And like everything you report back intersects with our humanity because you're just up closer to it. We can all feel it, but we're just maybe a little farther away when we're not in that stage.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And y'all have real jobs.
You have other jobs. This is my job.
Like, let me do this for us.

Speaker 2 You carry on with your lives and do all the things you need to do with adulting. I'll do this part and report back to you.

Speaker 2 And just so all of you know, I'm trying to do these not where I am right now, which is interesting. This is me, what I was thinking about three weeks ago.

Speaker 2 Because that's another thing I have to do is,

Speaker 3 I don't know, I don't know how to explain that, but well, yeah, you have to figure out what it means and process through it enough to be able to explain it.

Speaker 2 That makes sense. Yeah.
When I'm in the middle of recovery, every single day, I have no idea what the fuck's going on. I'm like, wait, what is happening? Nothing's working.

Speaker 3 I'm sad and scared like i don't see any theme or growth until it's a little bit in the back window in retrospect i'm like oh that's what last week was about also trigger warning i just want to say it yeah just yeah if eating if speaking about eating disorders and recovery is something that makes your recovery harder then check back in on next episode if it's something that makes your life easier and feel more human with other humans, then keep listening.

Speaker 2 Right. Yeah.
And I'm just so grateful for the space. I can't even tell you all, you know, sister.
After the,

Speaker 2 when I talked about the diagnosis on the podcast, all of these people are, all these magazines are like, come talk to us about it. And it's so wonderful to be like, no, thank you.

Speaker 2 I have my family meeting where I talk about these things.

Speaker 2 It's just wonderful.

Speaker 2 So I decided early on in my recovery that I needed to get back to walks. Okay.
Now, going for a couple of walks a day sounds very, very simple,

Speaker 2 but it is, I think, one of the most important times and spiritual practices of my life is walking. I don't put anything in my ears.
I don't listen to anything. I just,

Speaker 2 I actually live fairly close to the ocean now. So I walk down to the ocean and it's been freezing cold.

Speaker 2 So I get on like my scarf and my hat and my big puffy coat and I'm the only one on the beach and the sun's not even risen yet. And I just walk, walk, walk, walk, walk.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 So in my visions of this walk, of what it would be in my early recovery, I thought that I would have amazing spiritual revelations on these walks.

Speaker 2 I thought that my mind would be thinking very highfalutin thoughts. Falutin.
Yes.

Speaker 2 Now, one of the things that's interesting about

Speaker 2 focus time

Speaker 2 where you're not allowing yourself any other distractions is that you

Speaker 2 can notice what your mind does.

Speaker 3 That's precisely why we have so many distractions.

Speaker 2 That's why we don't identify. Right.
So the way that I want to explain that is like suddenly

Speaker 2 you aren't your thoughts. Like all day you're walking around and you just think you are that thing.

Speaker 2 And then when you're in a quiet space and you're walking and you're like watching your mind go and it's like being on a walk with your most annoying, ridiculous friend who won't shut the fuck up, but it's you.

Speaker 2 You're like, I'm out here for a spiritual experience. And this woman will not shut the fuck up.
That's okay,

Speaker 2 ruining my beach walk.

Speaker 2 And here's what I started realizing is what my mind is thinking about is humiliating.

Speaker 2 At this time that I'm talking about right now, this window of my recovery, I had a little bit stopped obsessing about food

Speaker 2 and my body.

Speaker 2 And so, what my mind did was to now start obsessing about something else, which was the next thing I needed to buy.

Speaker 2 All

Speaker 2 I thought about while I was out there trying to think about my recovery, trying to think about my childhood, trying to think about Together Rising.

Speaker 2 Nope, let's think about that scarf that just came through your Instagram feed. That if you bought, you would be so amazing.
This scarf I obsessed about. Then, Dennis, Abby, do you remember the hat?

Speaker 2 Oh my gosh. I obsessed about this hat that I saw in a store.
Am I a hat person? No. But I just needed this hat for a week.
I needed this scarf for a week. I needed this new sweater.

Speaker 2 It was just like one thing after another,

Speaker 2 a thing. It was driving me

Speaker 2 utterly

Speaker 2 crazy. Like Like I couldn't stop the obsession.
And so

Speaker 2 that is a really important, interesting thing to notice about yourself.

Speaker 3 Did you buy the hat and the scarf and that sweater?

Speaker 2 Or did you just obsess? Did not. No, I did not.
Because I started to think about, okay,

Speaker 2 this is the hamster wheel that I could be on my entire life and have been at periods of time. This is not something that's unique to me.

Speaker 2 This is something that is how capitalism runs, how consumer culture runs. It's just whenever I get the scarf,

Speaker 2 I will be pleased for four minutes. And then there will be something else that jumps in the space of scarf.
And then I will obsess about that until I get that thing.

Speaker 2 And then when that's done, it's just a forever, you know, because we can't ever get enough of what we don't really need. So I just kept thinking, oh, I'm so happy to be seeing this.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't want to spend my life doing this. I do not want my entire life to just be

Speaker 2 one thing after another that I am trying to consume.

Speaker 2 So then I started thinking about,

Speaker 2 okay,

Speaker 2 we've talked about this before. What is the want? beneath the want

Speaker 2 okay clearly it's not just a freaking scarf or sweater I think this is an interesting exercise to do. It's like

Speaker 2 what marketers do is they just identify a human need, a human longing, and then they just attach a product to it. So that when we look at something, we're like, oh, that candle.

Speaker 2 Oh my God, I want like quiet time. I want peace.
I want a minute to breathe. I want people to leave me alone.
But the closest I can get is that $38 candle.

Speaker 2 So I started thinking about the things that I was obsessing about, sweaters, scarves, things to wrap around myself. Like I was like, am I freaking cold? Like, am I just freezing?

Speaker 2 But then I started thinking about covering, right? Covering the neck. Scarves cover the most vulnerable place.
Warmth. Warmth.
Like, what does that

Speaker 2 signify? I don't know.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 1 It's like going from

Speaker 1 your past to your future, you know, like you've talked about and your body is like you wanted to become steel, like steel is cold.

Speaker 1 It's like maybe this desire to want to move into a more warmth of body.

Speaker 2 Yeah, maybe, or exposure, like being exposed and wanting to like cult. Yeah, obviously, I don't, I don't know for sure.

Speaker 1 That would be my guess.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but then I started thinking, okay, this is all bullshit too, because this is just thinking about thinking.

Speaker 2 Like, I know, now I'm like, I think I want this other, it's just the same consciousness that, that's, causes a problem, doesn't solve the problem.

Speaker 2 So i'm my mind is wild and keeps wanting things and now i'm like trying to think about my thinking

Speaker 1 you know what we don't talk enough about sleep i mean we spend a third of our lives doing it and it literally impacts everything your mood focus workouts even how you show up for the people you love but here's the thing not all sleep is good sleep.

Speaker 1 That's why I'm obsessed with my Coop Sleep Goods and my Coupe Adjustable Pillow. It is revolutionary because it's an adjustable pillow where you can remove or add fill to fit your sleep needs.

Speaker 1 Back sleeper, side sleeper, stomach sleeper, this pillow actually adapts to you, not the other way around.

Speaker 1 I got two of these king-size original adjustable pillows after I completed the short sleep quiz, which I highly recommend everyone do. You can ensure you're buying the exact right pillow for you.

Speaker 2 I love it.

Speaker 1 I love being able to take out the fill until it was perfectly adjusted to my neck and spine. You can feel the difference, and I want all of our listeners to try this pillow.

Speaker 1 Upgrade your sleep, visit coopsleepgoods.com/slash hard things to get 20% off your first order. That's COOP sleepgoods.com/slash hard things.

Speaker 2 So, here's what I end, I started thinking about, which is,

Speaker 2 I think the problem for me is adding anything after the word like I want.

Speaker 2 Like, I think I just want.

Speaker 2 I think

Speaker 2 that I just

Speaker 2 am a longing, wanting,

Speaker 2 needing

Speaker 2 person.

Speaker 2 And the problem comes when I attach something or anything after that word, want.

Speaker 2 It's kind of like that could be one definition of addiction. You know, like love addiction is like, I love,

Speaker 2 and then we just attach Johnny.

Speaker 2 And it's like, we think that's going to quell who we actually are, which is this yearning, right? Or like alcoholism, I need a beer. No, it's just, you just need, Like, you're just an

Speaker 2 open wound of longing and wanting. And so

Speaker 2 I started thinking, like, maybe the problem is not the actual loving or the needing or the wanting, but the attaching one liquid or one person or one scarf to that wanting or longing and needing.

Speaker 2 What if that thing never eases that longing? And so I want a scarf becomes I just want.

Speaker 2 And there's no way to solve that. So you just have to be

Speaker 2 in that wanting.

Speaker 3 What does it look like to be a person

Speaker 3 who deeply wants

Speaker 3 and doesn't attach

Speaker 3 something to it? Like doesn't take the bait from the world, which is going to give you a lot of bait about things you should want.

Speaker 3 How does that look from a day-to-day just to be a wanting person and to come to terms with it without trying to fix it with a thousand things?

Speaker 2 I think that's the key of my recovery right now. I can tell you, it's not going swimmingly so far.

Speaker 2 Like it's, it's always trying to attach something to the thing, whether it's food or alcohol or shopping or this is not a problem that's like me.

Speaker 2 We are all grabbing for something to attach to because it's, it's easier to get that little relief, even if it's eight minutes from the longing.

Speaker 2 It's like when you press the button on the cart and for a second, you're like, oh,

Speaker 2 I mean, it comes right back and then you're out of money or whatever, you know, the fact is that we are wanting, longing people.

Speaker 2 And the world runs by attaching things to that longing and then convincing us that we will solve it with their product or their thing.

Speaker 2 So then for a week, I was like, okay, with I'm a wanting, yearning people person, what that looks like is like feeling a lot and being okay with that and making art out of it, writing poems, like, I don't know what it is for everybody, but not trying to fix it.

Speaker 2 And then a friend was over.

Speaker 2 She had just come from a recovery meeting and she said, Well, you know, whatever you think about the most is your highest power. This is like a saying from recovery.
That is so fascinating to me.

Speaker 2 Whatever you think about the most is your higher power. So don't give me, I'm not a religious person.
I don't have faith. I don't, whatever.
Everybody has a higher power.

Speaker 2 Everybody has something they're bowing to. One idea is that whatever you think about the most is your higher power.

Speaker 2 So if you're on your beach walk, you obsessed about your mother who never loved you well, your broken mother is your higher power.

Speaker 2 Whatever the thing is that you ruminate on over and over again is your higher power. So when I thought about that, I thought, okay, right now,

Speaker 2 I don't, I'm not pleased about this, but my higher power would be

Speaker 2 consumerism,

Speaker 2 longing, beauty, thinness, buying shit. So then,

Speaker 2 if you think about what your higher power is and you being a disciple of that thing,

Speaker 2 the idea is, how do I undisciple myself from this? How do I quit this church? How do I stop allowing this thing to be my higher power?

Speaker 2 So here's where

Speaker 2 the things get weird. What I usually decide is, oh, I just need a bunch of new rules for myself.

Speaker 2 The way that I stop this discipleship, the way that I stop this thing being the higher power of me is that I make a bunch of rules for myself.

Speaker 2 That is what I ding, ding, ding, fingered out on the beach. Oh my God, I am addicted to beauty culture.
I am addicted to thinness and control. I am addicted to consumer culture.

Speaker 2 So I am going to make a bunch of rules now to protect myself from those things. So I came home to you, made a big announcement.

Speaker 2 I wrote down this whole thing. You, Glennon, you are addicted to these things.
No more. This is what I said.
No more dying your hair. No more makeup.
No more Botox. No more social media.

Speaker 2 No more buying anything. I have made myself a mission statement.
I told my kids. I texted my hairdresser.

Speaker 2 Said, get behind me, Satan.

Speaker 2 No more of this.

Speaker 2 And I just thought, that's it. This is the answer.
I am not going to be a disciple of that shit anymore.

Speaker 2 I pictured myself, you know, just like this gray goddess with proof of wrinkles and proof of life all over my face and my ass, and felt like other women and my girls would be able to look at me.

Speaker 2 And I would just be like one version of a human being that was not fucking telling them that them in their natural state wasn't good enough to exist, just as they were.

Speaker 2 I was going going to do this for me, for my kid, for all of us. Do you remember that time?

Speaker 1 I do.

Speaker 2 Do you remember anything in particular about that time? Do you have any thoughts or feelings about it? Did I tell you, sister? Oh, I did tell you.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I was just really quiet when you made me read your list.

Speaker 2 I was like, huh.

Speaker 1 This has been an interesting process for me because

Speaker 1 I've had to remove myself from being a part of your healing in a way.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 my input doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 And I think that I've really

Speaker 2 tried.

Speaker 1 I'm not 100% successful with this, but I thought, well, she's going to figure that out.

Speaker 1 She's going to figure this out at some point. And I can't be the one that figures it out for her.

Speaker 2 But you did have a flash of, whoa, she's doing the rules thing again. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I was like, oh, this is old Gluddon.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's so interesting. I did not know that.

Speaker 1 It was like you, it was like you got like a step outside the house and you were like, nope, too hot or too cold. And you wanted to come back in where it was safe and cozy and warm.

Speaker 1 The way that I think about it is you've created all of these neural pathways of thinking, of operating, and you're starting to rearrange and maybe rewire some of them or even just consider to rewire some of them.

Speaker 1 And it's hard to make those new grooves in your in the in the neuroplasticity of your brain. So to me, it just felt like, oh, she needs to do this for some reason.

Speaker 2 To me, it doesn't feel like new pathways.

Speaker 3 You said before that in the first episode that anorexia was like a religion, a worldview. And it feels like you just took a different religion and filled in the same pathways.

Speaker 3 Because in anorexia, you're like, this is dangerous. This is scary.
I have to make myself a thousand rules to make myself safe. So there are foods that are forbidden.

Speaker 3 There are things that are dangerous. And so if I just follow these rules, I'll be okay.
But then you're trying to get out of that and you're like, this is scary. I don't know how to navigate this.

Speaker 3 So I will make all these rules. There are procedures that are dangerous for me.
There are

Speaker 3 hair colorings that are forbidden. It's the same exact pathway with a different religion.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, that's good.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 my daughter figured this out. So my 16-year-old daughter, this is, this is where the moment, the moment where the madness is interrupted.
Okay. So I make it like a couple months with this.

Speaker 2 I mean, thank God I'd just gotten Botox. So I didn't have to like deal with anything.
Just the concept of one day not renewing. Okay.
But my hair was getting gray.

Speaker 2 I was feeling okay about it for a while. And then I started to feel scared.
But I wasn't sharing any of my fear on the outside because I already said it. I already said the rules.

Speaker 3 Now, if I go back, well, you're not going to be safe. Like, not to make light of it.
You had decided that in this brave new world that you're entering

Speaker 3 with uncharted territory, you needed things to keep you safe. You can't just walk out there and willy-nilly decide as you go.
That's terrifying. Right.
So it's a map. And you make yourself a map.

Speaker 3 And then what happens?

Speaker 2 And it's like, I mean, Abby said later, it was almost like I was trying to prove my freedom with a bunch of rules. Like, look at me, how free I am with all of my wild gray hair.

Speaker 2 And my, I am so free, but I had to make a bunch of cages around myself to be free. My daughter sits down in my bathroom one night and she says, mom, I'm thinking about something.

Speaker 2 And I said, what's up? And she she said, do you think

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 it's a good idea to have all of these extreme new rules that you're living by right as you're trying to recover?

Speaker 2 And I looked at her on the bathroom floor and this is a true thing. I had my phone next to me at the counter.
I looked at her on the bathroom floor and my heart just,

Speaker 2 I felt so many things. I felt like so grateful for her.
I felt sad that she had to think about that in terms of her mom. I felt like amazed by her wisdom.

Speaker 2 I felt like she was so brave to even be thinking about this or say it to me. And then I also felt really excited to text my hairdresser.

Speaker 2 You're like, dear Satan, get in front of me.

Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 So I said to her, hold on one second

Speaker 2 before I responded to her. And I picked up my phone and I texted my hairdresser and I said, I just need you to get me in as soon as possible.

Speaker 2 And she, of course, said, of course, I've been waiting for this to be stayed. Okay.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 as I was talking to Tish about this, I remembered something that

Speaker 2 my doctor had said to me when I announced my rules to her.

Speaker 2 Now, interestingly enough, I had not thought about this until Tish said this because I am amazing at hearing what I need to hear and not hearing what doesn't fit into my plan. Okay.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 my doctor said, when I announced all of these amazing new feminist rules for myself, she

Speaker 2 looked less excited than I thought she would.

Speaker 3 You thought you were going to get a sticker for me.

Speaker 2 I did.

Speaker 2 I really did. And she said,

Speaker 2 let's just keep an eye on that because sometimes people who do not have an internal locus of control make external rules to keep themselves safe.

Speaker 2 People who do not have a center, an inner self that they trust to guide them, make a bunch of structures on the outside to control, protect them because they don't feel safe or guided in their own bodies.

Speaker 2 Suddenly, it all started to make sense about

Speaker 2 replacing. I felt like I was getting a god of rules, a set of things that had always kept me safe taken away from me.

Speaker 2 And so it makes sense then that I would replace it with another, like the old God has mean new rules. I'll replace it with the new God who has mean new rules, but they all have to do with deprivation.

Speaker 2 They all have to do with not trusting myself. They all have, so it must be right.

Speaker 3 And they're also not tested. That's a thing.
Like before you did any of it, you decided it was bad for you. Whereas if you just

Speaker 3 were going through your recovery and you went to your regular hair things and then

Speaker 3 it started to seem a little off and like it wasn't working for you and felt afflicted, then you would notice that and respond to it as opposed to proactively, just somewhat arbitrarily making up all these rules that you thought would work for you.

Speaker 2 Right. Someone who knows how to live in their body and pay attention to how they feel moment by moment would know how to do that.
Trust the process.

Speaker 2 Someone like me, who has been completely divorced from their body and from their knowing forever

Speaker 2 might not trust that that's going to happen because I have not practiced that.

Speaker 2 So it might be much easier.

Speaker 3 This show is brought to you by Alma. I want to start with a truth I've learned the hard way.
Taking care of your mental health isn't a one-time decision. It's a daily practice.

Speaker 3 And even when you know you want support, the hardest part is often often just figuring out where to start. For me, finding the right therapist changed everything.

Speaker 3 But getting there was kind of overwhelming. Endless searches, phone calls, dead ends.
It's wild that the thing that's supposed to help you can feel so hard to reach. And that's why I love Alma.

Speaker 3 Alma, A-L-M-A, takes all that chaos out of the process. It's a simple, easy-to-use platform where you can search for licensed, in-network therapists who actually feel like the right fit.

Speaker 3 You don't even need an account to browse and you can filter by what matters most to you, their background, specialty, therapy style, and more. And here's the part that really matters.

Speaker 3 This isn't just about checking a box. It's about real connection.
97% of people who found a therapist through Alma say they felt seen and heard. And that's the heart of good therapy.

Speaker 3 Someone who gets you, not just your symptoms. Better with people, better with Alma.
Visit hello alma.com slash we can to schedule a free consultation today that's hello a lma dot com slash w-e-c-a-n

Speaker 2 now here's where this weird micro thing that happened to me

Speaker 2 I believe is about all of us.

Speaker 2 Where did I get this idea

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 whatever's happening inside of my body, that my truest nature, that my self is not a good enough guide, will not keep me safe, that I have to have outer structures protecting me from myself, protecting other people from me.

Speaker 2 I want to talk about white lady culture for a minute. I think we don't do that enough.
We assume that white lady culture is the default. White women assume that.

Speaker 2 We don't talk a lot about how we are a culture and how we are indoctrinated in a lot of different ways.

Speaker 2 And there are a million different socioeconomic groups. And when I say white people, I'm talking about mine in particular.

Speaker 2 There is nothing about myself

Speaker 2 that was not told to me at some point, I needed an outer structure to protect me from. The minute I was born, I was born into a culture that said, you cannot trust your appetite.

Speaker 2 Here's diet culture for you. Here's a list of rules.
Here's a list of guidelines on every single magazine. You just don't listen to yourself.

Speaker 2 You listen to this and that will keep you safe and desirable. I was born into a culture that did not honor a faith, a wild faith inside of me.
It gave me religion. Here is an outer structure.

Speaker 2 that will guide you, control your, your wild faith, and this will keep you safe, get you to heaven, follow these rules. So appetite is controlled, faith is controlled, sexuality is controlled.

Speaker 2 Here's your heteronormative,

Speaker 2 all the rules that women have about sex. Stay in the rules of all of these.

Speaker 3 Here's the confines and rules around sex that is safe. And by safe, meaning acceptable.
And here's all the kinds that is not.

Speaker 3 And if you so much as want any of those other kinds, then that is further evidence that you can't be trusted because you want this thing that we've all decided is a very bad thing, like any sex before marriage, like any sex with someone who isn't the opposite sex, any of that.

Speaker 3 So, that just doubles down on you, like, well, I guess I don't know what's best for me.

Speaker 2 Don't listen to yourself, listen to this, you'll be safe. Match yourself to this set of rules.
Femininity, everything is a rule. Here's what you wear.
Here's what you don't wear.

Speaker 2 Here's how you be a girl. Here's how you flirt.
Here's the million ways you can keep yourself safe at night. Don't wear headphones at night.
Don't

Speaker 2 drink. All of these rules about being a girl in the world that will keep us safe.

Speaker 2 I believe

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 me, and I'm not saying this is true for everyone. I'm saying this is true for me.
That me breaking out of my fundamentalist religion was me stepping outside of spiritual anorexia.

Speaker 2 That me honoring my desire inside of myself and my sexuality and getting out of a heteronormative marriage and with you was breaking free from sexual anorexia.

Speaker 2 We even look at the way the world talks to women about money. It's financial anorexia.
It has nothing to do with power.

Speaker 2 It has nothing to do with using your financial energy to serve and change status quo. It's deprivation.
It's you just don't get a latte.

Speaker 2 You just keep saving. You just don't buy.

Speaker 2 I think that one way, not the way, not the one way to look at

Speaker 2 the way that my particular generation, my particular culture was raised is is that

Speaker 2 we were raised with a bunch of outer rules and structures imposed upon us to keep us safe,

Speaker 2 which, by the way, none of it was really to keep us safe.

Speaker 2 It was to keep white men in our lives in power and unchallenged.

Speaker 2 And that is why

Speaker 2 we are compliant, caged, and fucking angry.

Speaker 2 And I think that that is where one place

Speaker 2 where this whole Karendom

Speaker 2 comes from.

Speaker 2 I actually saw this idea discussed on Twitter by Imani Gandhi at Angry Black Lady, who was pointing to somebody on TikTok who suggested, why on earth are we calling these angry white women Karens?

Speaker 2 Why don't we just call them angry white women? Like we've been labeled.

Speaker 3 Yeah, because that whole phenomenon undergirds the whole idea of white exceptionalism. Exactly.

Speaker 2 It's just a communal problem.

Speaker 3 This isn't the whole lot of us. There's a couple bad apples.
Notice how we don't do the couple bad apples for every other race. No.
They don't get that courtesy.

Speaker 2 No, it's angry black women.

Speaker 2 You're an angry black woman. I think that when you look at all of these isolated incidents of white women freaking out

Speaker 2 and calling the police or calling in the troops, it's always when

Speaker 2 women of color are showing us too much freedom. It's when they are laughing too loudly.

Speaker 2 It's when their children are selling lemonade. It's when black men are bird watching.
It's when black families are being full of life and freedom. It's when people are dancing too loudly.

Speaker 2 It's freedom that pisses us off. And it's also, God forbid, anybody who's in power, any black woman who's in power,

Speaker 2 that we can't take it. Anybody who is a woman with freedom or power

Speaker 2 makes us crazy because we want those things and we are caged and we don't understand any of it because our culture is anorexia.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 All of the shit that we see, that we want, the envy we have, what it brings out in us is this white, angry woman that is just pissed because our whole lives, we've been following the appetite, the spirituality, the sexuality, the gender, and the financial fucking rules of the world.

Speaker 2 And we know we can't take it out on the people who are doing it to us. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Or not that we can't, we just don't. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And so we turn on everybody else.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I think

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 this is

Speaker 2 part of my recovery that

Speaker 2 I'm hoping

Speaker 2 people can find themselves somewhere in. And P.S.,

Speaker 2 stay tuned because

Speaker 2 I just keep replacing things with other things. I haven't found the thing

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 will replace, that will help me find this inner locus that all these people keep talking about. But what I do know is that it's not an outer set of rules,

Speaker 2 that it's got to be inside of me? And I will say this, I think the not wanting to dye my hair, I want to not want that. Yeah.
Okay. I just don't yet.
I just don't yet. Like I

Speaker 2 am onto something. When I picture my 60-year-old self, when I picture my 55, like I am that person.

Speaker 2 But it's not because I disciplined myself, I overrode myself, I made myself do it.

Speaker 2 It's because one day I woke up and I was so full of life and joy that I decided, why the hell would I I want to go sit in a chair for three hours and cover my head? Like, I won't want to.

Speaker 2 It will be a gift to myself to free myself from the thing. It won't be a rule that I have to follow to discipline myself to do it.
Yes.

Speaker 2 I want to want it, but I'm not going to make myself do it until I really do want it. That

Speaker 3 makes so much sense to me.

Speaker 2 Every year,

Speaker 3 I tell myself I'm going to live in the moment during the holidays. And then I blink and it's over.

Speaker 3 The wrapping paper's gone, the tree is shedding, and if I want to relive any parts of it, I have to go through the photo app of my phone. That's why I love Aura Frames.

Speaker 3 They make those moments live on without adding another project to your life.

Speaker 3 I just upload photos of unwrapping gifts, cookie decorating, all of the best parts of the holiday, and now they pop up on the frame all year long.

Speaker 3 Setting it up was ridiculously easy. You just download the aura app, connect to Wi-Fi, and add unlimited photos and videos.
You can even preload pictures before it ships.

Speaker 3 And so, when someone opens it, it's already full of love. And it comes in this beautiful gift box.
No wrapping, no stress. They nailed it over there.
You know what I'm talking about, right?

Speaker 3 It's like a frame that looks like it's just like got a picture in it, except all of your pictures rotate through it all year long without you even like making a fancy album.

Speaker 3 For a limited time, visit auraframes.com and get $45 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames, named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code hardthings at checkout.

Speaker 3 That's A-U-R-A Frames.com promo code hard things.

Speaker 3 This exclusive Black Friday Cyber Monday deal is their best of the year. So order now before it ends.
Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

Speaker 3 It's the idea that

Speaker 3 deprivation

Speaker 3 is just as much of a cage as wanting. You know, if you tell yourself, I still want this thing, I'm not going to let myself have it.

Speaker 3 There's not no freedom in there, just like there's no freedom in wanting and wanting and wanting and never being able to satiate

Speaker 3 that desire. Like both of them are terrible ways to live.

Speaker 3 And it made me think when you were talking about the wanting, when you were saying, I'm just a wanting, wanting person.

Speaker 3 I think it might go to the locust issue, like to the center of you issue where you're directing yourself.

Speaker 3 Because I'm thinking right now of this book, Woman at Point Zero, this woman, Nawal El Sarui, wrote, and she has this part of it where she says,

Speaker 3 I hope for nothing, I want for nothing, I fear nothing, I am free.

Speaker 3 And it's like what you said, when you get to the point where you don't want

Speaker 3 to dye your hair,

Speaker 3 and you don't want those 10 things in your closet that are gonna satisfy you for 10 seconds is the idea

Speaker 3 that you already have everything you need. So, why would you?

Speaker 2 Maybe, or it's the dependence upon the trust that when my inner self needs something, she'll let me know.

Speaker 2 I think that not wanting, not needing, not longing, that's very Buddhist. And I mean, listen, I was on the beach going, the Lord's my shepherd, I shall not want.

Speaker 2 He makes me lie down in green pastures. Like I was trying not to want.
Maybe that's part of this.

Speaker 2 like that's it's also why i want to track this recovery because my hope and dream is that a year from now i will look back on a transcript from the beginning and be like oh

Speaker 3 we're not we figured that part out right yeah exactly and i think there's a difference between responding to yourself when you are learning to hear your voice

Speaker 1 about a want

Speaker 3 versus living in the state of want. Yes, those are two very different things.

Speaker 3 If you're living in a state of deprivation, very different than deciding that what your body needs is to pass on something right now. Yes.

Speaker 3 Living in a state of want is very different than sitting with yourself and hearing yourself enough to say, like, actually,

Speaker 3 I don't want this job and I want that one.

Speaker 3 That's a very different

Speaker 2 way of doing life.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, it is.

Speaker 1 Well, it's coming from more of a grounded place in the early recovery days.

Speaker 1 it's like okay i'm not obsessing about food so i'm just gonna find something else to curb this this desire and i think over time you'll you'll become more grounded in it so it's like oh what do i actually want that maybe maybe not yeah it's just really interesting

Speaker 2 because what i don't think is that that is what most people do i think that most people just live in a state of attaching something and then hamster wheeling their their whole life.

Speaker 2 Like, what I'm saying is, I think that recovery is a gift that leaves people in a better spiritual place than most of the world who thinks that they never had a mental problem to start with.

Speaker 2 Because when I'm doing this work, I'm not thinking I'm so fucking weird.

Speaker 2 I'm thinking, we are all so fucking weird.

Speaker 2 How

Speaker 2 am I going to use this time to not do what everybody does,

Speaker 2 to not waste my life, to not,

Speaker 2 you know, be on my deathbed and be like, well, I sure did collect a hell of a lot of scarves.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, and listen, we're all weird and we're all a collection of chemicals.

Speaker 3 We think we're motivated by all this shit, right?

Speaker 2 We are motivated by dopamine

Speaker 3 and all the other chemicals in our brain that give us positive responses when we do certain things.

Speaker 3 So, when we are getting those,

Speaker 3 as long as that pathway is going, it's going to continue. And it's almost like you have to live into something

Speaker 3 before you believe it, because you have to make that pathway work. You have to be like, whoa, I just got a shot of something joyful in my head when I listened to myself and gave it to myself.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 What are you going to do next time? That's the thing you're going to want instead of the scarf.

Speaker 2 Yeah. That's what I think.
I've casted a vision for who I will be, but that's not where I am now. So I have to live in to becoming that thing.

Speaker 2 And it's not going to be through deprivation.

Speaker 2 So thanks for listening

Speaker 2 to that.

Speaker 3 That was beautiful.

Speaker 1 It's been really something about. Yeah, it's been really something watching you go through this process.
A lot for me has definitely come up.

Speaker 1 So I think that this is not only important for anybody who sits in your seat,

Speaker 1 having some of the stuff that you're going through, but for me to be your partner, it's been really interesting.

Speaker 1 It's like confronted my own self, like with my own worthiness and how we kind of operate and you getting more embodied and me not needing to take care of some of the things, the physical things that I normally would.

Speaker 1 It's been really good for everybody.

Speaker 1 And because it's pushing us, it's like, it's.

Speaker 2 It changes the dance between us when I'm changing the dance inside my head.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and you are just doing the work and you're doing it in a way that I feel like you deserve like already gold medals.

Speaker 2 Oh, babe.

Speaker 1 No, it's just it's really something you really are beautiful. And it's not peaches and cream every day.

Speaker 2 No, it's not. I want to stop now because I just feel like that's enough, but I did keep one of the rules.
It's not a rule. It's like one of the things that has felt like a gift.

Speaker 2 And I am keeping that one, but I'll talk about that in a different hour.

Speaker 2 Pod squad, thank you for taking this journey with me and for listening when I'm weird and for just being there because it's really helpful for me when I'm processing all of this to even be thinking about

Speaker 2 how I describe it.

Speaker 2 It's making it less lowly. So thank you.
You're not weird. We can do hard things and we'll catch you next time.
Bye. Bye.

Speaker 2 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things.

Speaker 2 First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 2 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

Speaker 2 This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

Speaker 2 We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. I give you Tish Milton and Brandy Carlisle.

Speaker 2 I walked through fire, I came out the other side.

Speaker 2 I chased desire,

Speaker 2 I made sure I got what's mine,

Speaker 2 and I continue to believe

Speaker 2 that I'm I'm the one for me.

Speaker 2 And because I'm mine,

Speaker 2 I walk the line.

Speaker 2 Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are map.

Speaker 2 A final destination.

Speaker 2 We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 2 to places they've never been.

Speaker 2 And to be loved, we need to be known.

Speaker 2 We'll finally find

Speaker 2 our way back home.

Speaker 2 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 2 that our lives

Speaker 2 bring,

Speaker 2 we can do a heart again.

Speaker 2 I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

Speaker 2 I'm not the problem,

Speaker 2 sometimes things fall apart.

Speaker 2 And I continue

Speaker 2 to believe

Speaker 2 the best

Speaker 2 people are free,

Speaker 2 and it took some time,

Speaker 2 but I'm finally fine.

Speaker 2 Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are map.

Speaker 2 A final destination

Speaker 2 we lack.

Speaker 2 We stopped asking directions

Speaker 2 to places they've never been.

Speaker 2 And to be loved, we need to be known.

Speaker 2 We'll finally find our way back home.

Speaker 2 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 2 that our lives bring,

Speaker 2 we can do a heart again.

Speaker 2 We're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

Speaker 2 We might get lost, but we're okay with that. We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 2 in some places places they've never been.

Speaker 2 And to be loved, we need to belong.

Speaker 2 We'll finally find our way back home.

Speaker 2 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 2 that our lives bring,

Speaker 2 we can do hard

Speaker 2 things.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we can do hard things.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we

Speaker 2 can do

Speaker 2 hard

Speaker 2 things