167. Tracee Ellis Ross: How to Make Peace in Your Own Head

Speaker 1 One thing I love about our listeners is how industrious all of you are. The stories we hear about you guys going off on your own and starting your own ventures like we did, it's truly inspiring.

Speaker 1 It's a big part of why NetSuite came to us as a sponsor. NetSuite offers real-time data and insights for so many business owners, and by that I mean over 42,000 businesses.

Speaker 1 NetSuite offers the number one AI-powered cloud ERP. Think of it as a central nervous system for your business.

Speaker 1 Instead of juggling separate tools for accounting here, HR there, inventory somewhere else, NetSuite pulls everything into one seamless platform.

Speaker 1 That means you finally have one source of truth, real visibility, real control, and the power to make smarter decisions faster.

Speaker 1 With real-time data and forecasting, you're not just reacting to what already happened, you're planning for what's next.

Speaker 1 And whether your company is bringing in a few million or hundreds of millions, NetSuite scales with you.

Speaker 1 It helps you tackle today's challenges and chase down tomorrow's opportunities without missing a beat.

Speaker 1 Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com/slash hardthings. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/slash hard things.

Speaker 1 Netsuite.com/slash hard things.

Speaker 2 And I continue to believe

Speaker 2 that I'm the one for me.

Speaker 2 Hi.

Speaker 3 Hi, Tracy Ellis Ross. You all welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.
I'm going to really rush through the intro because

Speaker 3 today

Speaker 3 we have one of my favorite people. Is that not true? It is very true.
On this entire planet.

Speaker 3 Tracy Ellis Ross is an award-winning actress and producer best known for her roles in ABC's award-winning comedy series Blackish and Girlfriends for her role as Rainbow Johnson in Blackish as a comedic leading actress.

Speaker 3 Ross won the Golden Globe Award in 2017 as well as nine NAACP Image Awards. She was nominated for five Emmys and two Critics Choice Awards.

Speaker 3 Ross is the CEO and founder of Pattern,

Speaker 3 a hair care brand for the curly, coily, and tight-textured masses.

Speaker 3 Ross recently executive produced and narrates Who Lose the Hair Tales, amazing, a docuseries about black women beauty and identity through the distinctive lens of black hair upcoming ross will be producing a 10 episode podcast i am america which aims to break through the noise during this divided time in our country did you know that i did not in an in a

Speaker 4 country can't wait to show i can't wait yeah i can't i honestly can't wait for you to hear it oh my god yeah this is it's so funny lizzy

Speaker 4 You know what's funny about it? It's funny to listen to a friend read your stuff

Speaker 4 because it has nothing to do with our connection.

Speaker 4 And so it's funny. It was like at my birthday when my friends had the microphone.
I was so tickled.

Speaker 3 That's what we want to talk about.

Speaker 3 First of all, we decided we're going to do this interview differently than we ever do interviews because we don't want it to be like a this is your life thing.

Speaker 3 Because what I told my sister and Abby is that. I just thought of this category of person, but you are my, I'll have what she's having.
Yes.

Speaker 3 When you look at someone and you're with them and you spend time with them and you see who they are in the world and you're just like,

Speaker 2 I will have what she's having. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I just truly find you to be one of the most unique and wise and magnificent women I know. And my God, how kind.
Well, most people are like one thing or another thing.

Speaker 3 You just kind of like pick something and go with it. But you are so raw and real and also glamorous.
Yes. You're so powerful and poised, but also very transparent and tender.

Speaker 3 It's just all the things at once. And so now I get to have you for an hour and do what I've always wanted to do, which is I need you to tell me everything you know.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 4 And you're so kind of did that. We kind of did that in my old house.

Speaker 2 I think I was. I know.
I know.

Speaker 4 Amanda, I'm so happy to meet you as well. It's like crazy.

Speaker 4 Your voice is like a part of my world.

Speaker 2 I haven't like had time with you.

Speaker 4 Yeah. so it's lovely to meet you.

Speaker 3 This is fun.

Speaker 4 First of all, what you just said about me, it's so interesting

Speaker 4 to have mirrored back a version of yourself that is actually the version you want to be, you know, and to get to a place in an age where it's happened a couple, there's a couple of different times in my life, and I go, oh, okay, like despite what it feels like sometimes in this dangerous neighborhood that is my mind, sometimes it's a great place and sometimes like, don't go in there alone.

Speaker 4 Despite sort of some of that inner dialogue and that really bad story that happens in my head, every once in a while, I catch glimpses of the way I'm actually

Speaker 4 presenting out in the world. And it's a nice moment of validation and encouragement of like, okay, you're doing okay.
You're moving in the right direction.

Speaker 3 I think so, Tracy. You are.
If you're not, we're all fucked.

Speaker 2 If you're not,

Speaker 3 we're going to stop trying. So

Speaker 3 can you explain to my sister, and because I've already talked to Abby about this ad nauseum, but what you talked to me about, cauldron sisters.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Talk to me about what the cauldron is.

Speaker 4 I have this theory that souls are made in bunches. And

Speaker 4 I don't know, mother nature, someone's somewhere.

Speaker 4 beautiful gathering of people. They have these big cauldrons that they make people in,

Speaker 4 that they make souls in. And it's souls, honestly, not people.
And, you know, they're like, okay, what's this?

Speaker 4 This one's going to have, I don't know, a little bit of a little bit of heartbreak, but like a lot of joy. I don't know.
And these are going to be people who have really open hearts and whatever.

Speaker 4 And then they go when they're cooked, when the little veggies are cooked in there, the souls, they like sprinkle them out through time.

Speaker 4 And some of them are like, you know, they were back in 1816 and one goes in a dog and one goes in a lizard and one goes in a Abbey and one goes in a Glennon and one goes in an Amanda and they're like all over the place.

Speaker 4 And then you don't know when or how or what's going to bring you to another cauldron, fellow, sister, or whatever, whomever. But you meet someone and you're like, oh, we're from the same soup.

Speaker 1 Oh my God, this is exactly correct.

Speaker 4 Right? Like, it's one of those things where you're just like, I don't know what it is. Like, why do I feel like I've known you forever? It's like, oh, we have the same map.

Speaker 4 We have the same ingredients.

Speaker 4 And although the time period we're from or the town we're from, or whatever, like there was nothing that you would think would make our lives match.

Speaker 4 Somehow we come from the same ingredients.

Speaker 3 Yes. Do you know what those things are?

Speaker 4 That's interesting. I really find that I am from the same soup of people who, because I say this, there's some people where there's a lot of matches on the external things.

Speaker 4 And then there's the people that it's just like the inner roadmap is just similar. The things that soothe and comfort and the willingness to have

Speaker 2 the

Speaker 4 inside conversation

Speaker 4 on the outside, the deep conversation, the transparency. And the thing that's interesting is sometimes, like, I mean, you know,

Speaker 4 we don't see each other all the time.

Speaker 4 But I've called you in tangly moments and I've run into you on planes.

Speaker 4 And somehow there's a connection that is beyond beyond the circumstances of our life. And so maybe the people from my cauldron.

Speaker 4 Also, I do think back in the day, I would have been certainly burned at the stake. Totally.
Definitely a witchy lady. I know.

Speaker 2 I kind of think our cauldron is literal. I think it's a literal.

Speaker 4 It might be. Yeah.
It really might be. We might actually be out of a steaming cauldron.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Oh, I'd love so much. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I always say that when you hear those old stories about the women that were burned at the stake because of their beliefs and their feelings and their instincts and their intuition and their deep soul calling.

Speaker 4 I read their description and I'm like, huh, that sounds like a really great lady.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 3 Every damn time.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I'm like, hmm, that sounds like someone I would really want to be friends with.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Every time you hear of a witch, you think, Cauldron sister.

Speaker 4 I think that's my sis.

Speaker 3 Speaking of, so Abby and I were freaking lucky enough to be at your recent 50th birthday celebration

Speaker 3 of life. It was so freaking beautiful.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 3 It was a cauldron of your people.

Speaker 2 It was.

Speaker 4 And I really appreciate you guys coming out of the house because I know for me and for you, that's not an easy thing.

Speaker 3 Well, I would do anything for love, Tracy.

Speaker 2 I literally would even do that.

Speaker 4 I'm one of those people that I'm like, yeah, I would love to go, but do I really want to leave the house?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 I'm always thinking, oh, I wish I wanted to go.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's the best. That's exactly right.

Speaker 4 That's exactly right.

Speaker 3 So I have to tell you, we were there for maybe 10 minutes when maybe six people had come up to us and introduced themselves to us as your best friend. Yep.
Okay. I just started.
Now that's what I do.

Speaker 3 I do an interviews. I just say, I'm Glenn Doyle.
I'm Tracy Ellis Ross's best friend. But it was amazing how many people were so,

Speaker 3 you're just beloved to people. One woman told us that you were the only person who was in her delivery room delivering her twins.
And she told us this next to her husband.

Speaker 3 I kept thinking, oh.

Speaker 4 He was on a business trip.

Speaker 2 She was, that's right.

Speaker 4 She was, yeah, she was on hospital rest with her twins. She had to be in the hospital hooked up to things.

Speaker 4 And he happened to go like for a 24 hour, like he literally had to go somewhere for a work trip. And so I was on call and I got the call.
Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 4 I was

Speaker 4 right there. And then

Speaker 4 I switched off. And then when he arrived, I, but I was the first one to hold them.

Speaker 4 Philly and Clover. And it was really magical.
I have to say, the doctor actually said, because you knew they put the little curtain up and the doctor was like, you can actually sit down.

Speaker 4 You don't have to watch. I was like, no, I'm fine.

Speaker 4 actually can you scoot over a little bit yeah it's like

Speaker 4 yeah you're blocking my view on this life

Speaker 3 it was amazing yeah you have described yourself as a barnacle on your good friends lives i just love that image so much that you insist upon and allow yourself to be a barnacle. Talk to us about that.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you know, there's a really interesting thing. I am single.
I have been single. I've been single for a very long time.

Speaker 4 I have had many wonderful ins and outs of things, but no one stuck to the pan.

Speaker 4 And as a result,

Speaker 4 I get to curate my family, my chosen family around me. And I don't think I realized the gift of that until I've started to get older.
But my friend Samira,

Speaker 4 she's the one that coined that barnacle phrase.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 she did a toast.

Speaker 3 She did that.

Speaker 2 She did the toast.

Speaker 4 Yeah. So Samira, I met when I was 22 at Mirabelle Magazine when I went to work as an intern in the fashion department there.
And she was also an intern.

Speaker 4 She is now the editor-in-chief of Harper's Bazaar.

Speaker 4 Yeah, we've been through all these journeys together.

Speaker 4 And really, it's just the best metaphor because it's like you think of a barnacle like, you know, I keep thinking of those people that are like chored with.

Speaker 4 scraping the barnacles off the bottom of the boat that like just don't want to go and they've like made home there and then they like shackle to other barnacles and they're like attached to the boat and making a life on a thing that's not really where they're supposed to be because it's supposed to be on a rock not a boat you know and

Speaker 4 and that's what i feel like i feel like i'm like on the back of samira's butt just like i got i got you girl you can't there's you can't even reach me if you try and scrape me off like

Speaker 4 I remember someone saying once, I tried to get rid of that relationship, but it was like gum on your shoe. There's always like residue of it somewhere, you know?

Speaker 4 And it's the best residue.

Speaker 4 I mean, you know, the history that occurs over so monica and samira were the two that gave uh that back and forth speech together and um monica and i met in college i was 17 eight 17 we were both 17.

Speaker 4 our boyfriends were best friends

Speaker 4 and they're long gone

Speaker 2 wow

Speaker 4 they are long gone they were not barnacles no they were not barnacles swimming they were like they were like the people with the brush and you're good luck with that good luck with that buddy yeah so monica uh 17 samira

Speaker 4 when i graduated from college and was interning i met her at 22.

Speaker 4 i'm 50 now so these are long run situations and monica is an only child so i'm i'm the sister i remember her son uh we were together somewhere and there's a video of it it's fantastic i'm sitting on monica's lap or she's sitting on my lap

Speaker 4 And he was like, what are you guys doing? That's weird.

Speaker 4 And Monica said, this is what people do. They love each other.

Speaker 4 This is what it looks like, kid. Get used to it because this is it.

Speaker 2 And yeah.

Speaker 4 So barnacle, I'll be there. I'll be there on there.
What was that friend song?

Speaker 2 I'll be there for you.

Speaker 3 I only hear it six times a day. So

Speaker 3 I just love that. idea of it being okay to be stubbornly stuck to someone because I think so many of us are afraid of being a burden.
And I love the claiming of that.

Speaker 4 okay i'm i absolutely am afraid of being a burden i think one of the things i can't remember who said this to me that um not one friend or one person has to be all things to you at all times which is really helpful um

Speaker 4 because I come from some wiring and information that might have told me something a little bit confused.

Speaker 3 Not me. So my messages were very clear.

Speaker 4 Yeah, really clear.

Speaker 2 I'm not unpacking any of this as an adult.

Speaker 3 No. No, no.

Speaker 4 Patriarchy didn't teach me nothing.

Speaker 3 No. So, what do you mean?

Speaker 4 Well, so we go back to this model that you're sold, that we not only are we sold it, but we are fed it and we have to drink it. And it's everywhere.

Speaker 4 And if you're not careful, you actually think it's true. And it's the only bit of news for you, which is that my job as a woman is to

Speaker 4 learn to be choosable,

Speaker 4 having nothing to do with who I am, what makes my heart sing, floats my boat, makes me feel safe, makes me feel comfortable, makes me feel good, makes me feel powerful, makes me feel smart, any of those things, but really is more about how I might be seen so that I might be chosen, so that my life could mean something as a chosen woman who then gets to have a child and then be a mother and do that for a child.

Speaker 4 So our culture sells us this. And there's nothing wrong with that journey, but if it's a chosen journey, as opposed to the one that you think is going to make you worth anything.

Speaker 4 And then everything starts to fall into that messaging. And then if you're a black woman, there's like a whole other blah, blah, blah.
There's so many different versions of that.

Speaker 4 But that's like that overarching thing as a woman. And then your friendships fall into that hole too.

Speaker 4 So if you haven't been chosen for a guy, then you're going to fill all that God-size hole and all those different things with a friend. And then you become the best friend.

Speaker 4 And then it just, you know, all, it just gets all real tangled and real confusing.

Speaker 4 I've been

Speaker 4 grateful enough to have found

Speaker 4 places where there are eons of tools and different ways to unpack that crazy messaging, make sense of it in a way that actually gives me a shot at genuine happiness and a robust life that's actually mine.

Speaker 4 And it's like a daily reprieve. Some days are better than others.
Some days the old messaging comes in and sweeps in.

Speaker 4 And I've got a really nice matching story that goes with it of my unlovability and that narrative that just kind of travels along with it.

Speaker 4 And if I'm not careful and go into, you know, that thinking alone, I get stuck there.

Speaker 4 And then, you know, you come out. But did that, that was a long-winded way of saying, you know, it was a lot.

Speaker 5 This show is brought to you by Alma. I want to start with a truth I've learned the hard way.
Taking care of your mental health isn't a one-time decision. It's a daily practice.

Speaker 5 And even when you know you want support, the hardest part is often just figuring out where to start. For me, finding the right therapist changed everything.

Speaker 5 But getting there was kind of overwhelming. Endless searches, phone calls, dead ends.
It's wild that the thing that's supposed to help you can feel so hard to reach. And that's why I love Alma.

Speaker 5 Alma, A-L-M-A, takes all that chaos out of the process. It's a simple, easy-to-use platform where you can search for licensed in-network therapists who actually feel like the right fit.

Speaker 5 You don't even need an account to browse and you can filter by what matters most to you: their background, specialty, therapy style, and more.

Speaker 5 And here's the part that really matters: this isn't just about checking a box, it's about real connection. 97% of people who found a therapist through Alma say they felt seen and heard.

Speaker 5 And that's the heart of good therapy: someone who gets you, not just your symptoms. Better with people, better with alma.
Visit helloalma.com/slash we can to schedule a free consultation today.

Speaker 5 That's hello A L M A dot com slash W E C A N.

Speaker 2 I want to follow up really quick.

Speaker 1 How do you not go into your own mind or thinking alone?

Speaker 2 What are your strategies?

Speaker 4 Friendships.

Speaker 4 I have practices of healing and support that I lean towards, therapy,

Speaker 4 some of which I keep sacred and private. Some of those you know, but I don't share them necessarily publicly.

Speaker 4 But friendship has been the biggest and the willingness to be completely transparent and to be able to

Speaker 4 call people when I am on the floor,

Speaker 4 whether it's metaphorically or physically on the floor. But when in my mind, I have been

Speaker 4 floored, which happens often. I can't remember the

Speaker 4 I think it's friendship, um, the tools that tether me. This is actually something I got from you, tether me to what I like best about my life, which is the basic things.
Yes.

Speaker 4 Like my favorite part of my life is my life. I love all the stuff, but like I really like my making my bed in the morning or doing laundry or making my food or

Speaker 4 taking the garbage out, like just the basics that really tether me to my own humanity and my own sense of self and being able to show up and be of service and

Speaker 4 all of those things. I have so many different tools

Speaker 4 that keep me out of my,

Speaker 4 it's honestly like the, the, my mind is a wonderful place.

Speaker 4 It gets dangerous when I get connected to the really bad horror story that I have been stishing together since I was young, you know, and somehow if I get, if I fall back into that groove, it is so dangerous up there.

Speaker 4 And then everything's colored by the wrong information.

Speaker 2 Everything. Yeah.

Speaker 3 It's like

Speaker 3 our minds are such, I mean, yours especially, like magical creep, things come out of it that are unbelievable, not of this world.

Speaker 3 And then when you're in charge of it, when you give it a job, yes. When it gives you a job, like when you haven't directed it, no good.

Speaker 4 You know, is it when I haven't directed it?

Speaker 4 That's an interesting distinction.

Speaker 4 I don't know. Sometimes I don't know what it is that starts it.

Speaker 4 Because sometimes it's not connected the way I think it is. It could be like two days ago, I was with somebody who started me being afraid about something.

Speaker 4 And then somehow that fear like starts to snowball.

Speaker 4 And then it starts reaching into other areas.

Speaker 4 Like once I start getting afraid, it could just start with a little anxiety. Once it, you know, and, and I think I've shared this with you.

Speaker 4 I'm one of these people that I don't know what, I don't know how this happened, but I don't get scared of stuff until after.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Like I'm a girl that like jumps off a cliff, right? I'm like, oh my God, let's do it. This is the scariest thing in the world.

Speaker 2 I'm going to do it. I'm going to get organized.
I'm going to do this.

Speaker 4 I'm going to make this list. I'm going to do my research.
I'm going to make sure I'm rehearsed. I'm going to make sure I know what I'm wearing, how I'm doing it, who's going to be there.

Speaker 4 And then I go,

Speaker 4 and I jump off the cliff and I'm up there.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, I'm flying.

Speaker 4 I'm flying off the cliff. I'm flying.
And it's so good. It's everything I wanted it to be.
This is the best cliff I've ever been.

Speaker 2 Oh my God. Oh my God.
Oh my God.

Speaker 4 And then I land. And then I'm like, what?

Speaker 2 Fuck did I just say that?

Speaker 4 Who would do that? Why would you do that? Oh my God, you're so dumb. This is actually evidence.
Put that in the fire of unlovability. That shit is going to roar.

Speaker 4 We're going to make sure that we go back through every single thing that you did with a fine-tooth coma and we're going to prove to you that you are exactly the most unlovable, stupid, humiliating person in the world.

Speaker 4 How could you ever? You are filled with shame. You are riddled with it.
And then that's what happens on the next day. Like it's out of control.
It's like out of control.

Speaker 2 Risk hangover. Wow.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 It's a risk hangover. And then what's crazy is like.

Speaker 4 In that state, someone could say, oh my God, that was so amazing. They could say one thing and I can hear that they were covering.
They were telling me the part they liked.

Speaker 4 But then it's my job to figure out all the things that I did wrong that they didn't like.

Speaker 4 And, and the truth is, some of that is an ace in my deck, right? Because I'm not going to make a mistake twice.

Speaker 2 I'll tell you that.

Speaker 4 Some of it's an ace in my deck. But when left unchecked without compassion and tenderness and kindness, and when I'm alone with it, is a no bueno.

Speaker 4 Gentle, gentle, gentle, gentle. That's one of my favorites.
Like, give it twice. And then I have another friend who always says to me, give yourself a thousand breaks.

Speaker 4 And when those are done, give yourself a thousand more.

Speaker 4 And I'm much better at that as I've gotten older. One of the things I learned from Pima Chodron that was the most, not that I know her,

Speaker 2 just from her, from her books and her materials.

Speaker 5 But she's walking around going, hi, I'm Pima Chodron. I'm Tracy Ellis Ross's best friend.

Speaker 2 Listen, that's exactly the way I feel.

Speaker 4 By the way, Glenn and Abby, when people found out that you, they were like, wait, you're friends with them?

Speaker 4 It was amazing. I was like, yeah, that's where they're, yeah, we're best friends.

Speaker 4 What? You didn't, yeah, I don't, I don't talk about, you know, my, but yeah, we're friends. So, um, but one of the things I learned from my dear friend, Pima, um,

Speaker 4 was

Speaker 4 if I can't take the

Speaker 4 information in, like there's times when it's not the time. for me to look back

Speaker 4 and I can wait until I can actually look back constructively and not in a way that's going to create another wound that's good and more wound and i'm learning as i've gotten older to be deliberate about my aftercare so like i had a plan the day after my birthday

Speaker 3 what was it

Speaker 4 um it involved going somewhere where i could have proper support and um be

Speaker 4 a part of a community that supports me in that way.

Speaker 4 And I gave myself the day, I left for Cabo the next day. So I had all day

Speaker 4 to

Speaker 4 look through and make sure I felt okay about it. I have to like see it back for myself to hold it in a way that it actually remains.

Speaker 4 And one of the things I do with my therapist is before something, we now ask the question, how do you want to feel after?

Speaker 4 And what do I need to put in place to support myself in the after. And I'm such an independent person.

Speaker 4 One of the things I really am not good at is I think I'm good and I need to better plan being not alone because I'm always, I like to go places alone, but I need the

Speaker 4 partnership in it.

Speaker 4 And so it's really interesting.

Speaker 1 You just gave us a

Speaker 1 to-do list on how to support people who have events or situations that might be a big deal and to work through how it was and also to take care of yourself post, because going out of the house is a thing.

Speaker 4 It's a thing. And it's more of a thing now post-pandemic.
A lot of that stuff got kicked back up for me.

Speaker 2 Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Did you feel like the birthday would be so, would be vulnerable because so many people were there that you loved? How did you decided you want to feel after it?

Speaker 4 One of the things, my mom loves a celebration. She just, since we were, my mom loves Christmas.
So I'm a child that came from celebration.

Speaker 4 Celebration for the birthday, like birthdays were just, it was magic what my mom would do. She would draw on all the mirrors.
There were balloons.

Speaker 4 So like you would look in the mirror and it would say, mommy loves you. Happy birthday.
It was just the most glorious, like she just loved celebration.

Speaker 4 I am honestly, it's taken me a long time to realize I'm not that person.

Speaker 4 I don't decorate for Christmas.

Speaker 2 You got to take it down then. That's exactly right.
That's exactly how I

Speaker 4 don't wear a mascara.

Speaker 2 Yeah, take it off.

Speaker 2 Aftercare.

Speaker 2 Like, no, thank you.

Speaker 4 You know, like, if I'm not doing it for work, you've got to be kidding me. So

Speaker 4 I celebrate in different ways. It's like different for me.
So I made some conscious choices because it was 50

Speaker 4 about what I wanted to do. Last year, I had the most perfect birthday ever.
It was six people. at dinner, a restaurant I always go to.
I order the same things I order. And we were just talking.

Speaker 4 It was just a regular dinner. It's all it was.
It was fantastic. this felt important for me um

Speaker 4 it is an honor to turn 50.

Speaker 4 yes there are people particularly after what we went through with covid so many people lost their lives people don't make it into this age and i feel honored yeah even the things that i'm really challenged by like really challenged by but i feel like thank you like look where like this is evidence of my life and my history and my legacy and like my laughter and my things you know and so I really wanted to market with that and so I had to ask myself what would make it feel like a celebration for me

Speaker 4 some of those things were I wanted costume changes oh god

Speaker 4 just wait because we have so many clothing clothing really it just dressing up is just it it's I don't know people might think it's it's I love it When I am having a bad day, one of my favorite things to do is go in the closet and play dress up.

Speaker 4 I woke up this morning, I bought a new sweater and I woke up this morning at 6.30 and I was like, ooh, I have the outfit.

Speaker 4 And I, in my glasses, my hair everywhere, stripped down and went in the closet and made the look with the new sweater and literally looked in the mirror and was like, yeah, you got it.

Speaker 2 You got it. You got it.

Speaker 4 That's what I'm talking about, Tracy. I have no idea where I'm going to wear that outfit.
I never leave the house, but I was like, that's what I'm talking about.

Speaker 3 And that's Tracy.

Speaker 4 All right. Now I'm going to brush my teeth.

Speaker 2 I need you to ask a question about it. Okay.

Speaker 3 And this might be totally, I'm just,

Speaker 3 you have said about fashion, it's not look at me. It's this is me.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 This is me.

Speaker 3 Okay. Yeah.
I need you to explain to me what the hell that means.

Speaker 2 I understand like a chef.

Speaker 3 can be like, here is my heart and mind and soul on a plate. Tracy Ellis Ross can be like, here is my mind and my heart and my soul in a sweater.
I'm amazed by it.

Speaker 4 Okay, so when I was young, I've always loved beautiful things. I used to trail after my mom and pick up the beads that fell off of her dress on stage after the curtain went down.

Speaker 4 You could hear them crunching under her high heels, and I would get those little

Speaker 4 35 millimeter like canister things and I would collect them and then I would separate them by color into the different beads. And so I've always loved the artistry of clothing.

Speaker 4 I saw a woman, my mother, use clothing and glamour as a way to transform herself into a different version of herself, but still herself and a woman with agency. It was about her.

Speaker 4 It wasn't about pleasing someone else. It was sort of adorning herself

Speaker 4 with

Speaker 4 all of the baubles that she felt were a version of this part of her life. And so.
That was always my relationship to clothing and glamour and sparkle. And then I started to use clothing as armor.

Speaker 4 And now looking back, I can define there were two ways that I fought racism without realizing that's what it was.

Speaker 4 But I came from a wealthy world and I was living on Fifth Avenue, but I was still one of very few black people in many environments in stores and different places.

Speaker 4 And I didn't know that what was coming at me sometimes was microaggression and micro racism and all those kinds of things coming at me in these different ways.

Speaker 4 And so the way I presented myself was part of my armor. I was going to play the role of somebody who couldn't be fucked with.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 so I did it in grade school, high school. Like I just, there was a way that I would, it was, it was just, it was my armor.
And then it sort of transformed itself and

Speaker 4 transmuted itself out of armor and into a form of creative expression for me. And it's one of the ways I wear my insides on my outside.
And so I dress in all different kinds of ways.

Speaker 4 And back to what you said when you described me at the beginning, like all these different.

Speaker 4 parts of me that seem to match or don't match or whatever, like I, I let my clothing be that. So sometimes I want to feel really sexy and then sometimes I don't want to feel sexy.

Speaker 4 So it just depends on like what I'm covering up and what I'm wanting to share and all of that. And I worked in fashion and was a stylist for a while.

Speaker 4 So there's a language to clothing that I really speak. It's like sometimes I watch dancers and I think, my God, the language of their bodies.
Like they're literally speaking a language.

Speaker 4 And for me, style as opposed to fashion, but style is an expression the same way a loke defines beauty in a way that it's the imprint of your soul.

Speaker 4 And it's beauty is something that blossoms. And I feel for me, clothing is a version of that.
I really wish everyone would adopt that understanding of beauty, by the way. It just blows my mind.

Speaker 3 I think it's wild that you just mentioned a local because that's what I was thinking of when you were talking.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 As the air turns crisp and the holidays draw near, comfort becomes the best gift of all. That's why I love quints.
They deliver layers that last.

Speaker 5 Think sweaters, outerwear, and everyday essentials that feel luxurious, look timeless, and make holiday dressing and gifting effortless.

Speaker 5 Right now, I'm obsessed with their camel double-faced merino wool trench coat. It looks straight out of a designer showroom, but costs a fraction of the price.
The quality is honestly incredible.

Speaker 5 Warm, structured, and so elegant, it instantly feels like you are wearing something very much on purpose.

Speaker 5 I have so many items from Quince layered underneath, like button-ups and sweaters, but the coat is my current fave. And Quince really does have it all.

Speaker 5 100% organic cotton cardigans for under 50 bucks, oversized blazers, classic denim, silk tops, and fleece hoodies, down outerwear, everything to make you look chic, and most importantly, be cozy this fall and winter.

Speaker 5 Step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished, and last from Quince. Perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself.

Speaker 5 Go to quince.com slash hardthings for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada too.
That's q-u-i-n-ce-e.com slash hardthings to get free shipping and 365-day returns.

Speaker 5 Quince.com slash hardthings.

Speaker 3 Your costume changes that night. I get what you're doing.
I can see the language you're speaking. I'm like, oh, there's the majesty that's inside of Tracy is now outside of Tracy.

Speaker 3 Oh, the sexiness that's inside of Tracy is outside. The like ancient spirit that is inside of Tracy was in that first costume.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that first outfit was genuinely like some futuristic, like

Speaker 4 time. I don't know.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Alien or Roman.

Speaker 3 Or I don't know if we were going backwards or forwards or upwards to heaven or downwards.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 We were outside of time.

Speaker 4 And then the dream to wear one of my mother's dresses.

Speaker 3 There's the love, tradition, honor of the lineage, that outside of Tracy.

Speaker 4 Can I tell you a cute part of that?

Speaker 4 So I sent my mom a picture of a black version of that dress. And I was like, so where's this? Where's this? She was like, oh, we can go to, we can go to the storage and we can find it.

Speaker 4 And then she said, but there's a red one. And I was like, great.
So the red one was even better. But so I went to my mom's house.
And

Speaker 4 I have spent much time in her quick change booth when I was younger,

Speaker 4 learning how to get her in and out of a dress in three minutes.

Speaker 4 And there's a way you like hold the waist, you butterfly a dress on the floor, so you step right to the floor, and then the dress comes up because those weigh like 30 pounds, those dresses.

Speaker 4 Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 And so you,

Speaker 4 yeah, so you hold my mom's waist so she's steady as she reaches down to pull the dress up.

Speaker 4 And then you switch once she's got it up enough, you switch and her arms go in, and then you can zip up, right? And so I've done that many a time and all through the years.

Speaker 4 And so this time I went to her house, and there I was totally naked

Speaker 4 with my mom holding my waist. And I said, Mom, I'm so sorry because I took my underwear off.
I'm like, I'm so sorry, mom. And she was like, I know, I know that thing.

Speaker 4 And I was like, I know, but you haven't seen it in a long time. You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 It's like, get a little bit out of your reach now, you know?

Speaker 2 She's like, I made that thing.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 4 And as I always say, which really drives her crazy, I'm like, I know I came out of your vagina.

Speaker 2 Which makes her crazy.

Speaker 2 She's like,

Speaker 4 so inappropriate.

Speaker 4 So she's there. I'm naked and she's zipping me into her dress and then taking the pictures of me.
And it was, it was really moving for me and very, because so much of my life,

Speaker 4 Diana Ross aside, but I saw my mother. I saw this incredible woman in a sparkly dress on a stage.
and what it meant to me about being a woman in charge of your life.

Speaker 4 The example, a woman that was saying, this is me, not look at me. A woman that was in her full glory and freedom with her arms up, her heart open in her sensuality and sexuality.

Speaker 4 And so it was a lighthouse that I've been walking towards. So then at my 50th birthday, to actually be in one of those dresses and to strangely out of nowhere, grab the microphone

Speaker 4 and unrehearsed sing her song, It's My Turn, and change that that line to 50, I'm 50, and I'm free.

Speaker 4 That was just kind of magical.

Speaker 1 And in the cauldron of my loved ones, I mean, and also the same beads that you were picking up as a child.

Speaker 3 Everybody was jaws open, just like, how are we witnessing this? Yeah, it was.

Speaker 4 It was a really unplanned and

Speaker 4 unbelievably special moment. It was so interesting because after my birthday, which is what I'm in now,

Speaker 4 it feels like I had a New Year's Eve.

Speaker 4 You know, and I'm on the other side. And I'm the dust has settled from blackish, and I was tethered to that for so many years where everything was around it.
I'm out also going through perimenopause.

Speaker 4 So I have for my entire life been tethered to a very routine cycle.

Speaker 4 And I'm very connected to my body. So I would know I'm ovulating.
You know, I would have all the feelings of knowing that. And all of that is out the window.

Speaker 4 And I turned 50 and here I am in this open space now, sort of

Speaker 2 allowing the

Speaker 4 bubbling up of whatever might be here because I'm really specific about my life and I'm somebody who doesn't just go where the tide is taking me. I really, I manifest quickly.

Speaker 4 So I language deliberately.

Speaker 4 because otherwise I go places I didn't mean to go. And so it's a really interesting and open, special moment.

Speaker 4 I know.

Speaker 5 You're so fucking cool.

Speaker 3 Sissy, did you want to say something?

Speaker 4 I want to say so many things.

Speaker 4 Say things.

Speaker 2 Are you crying?

Speaker 5 Is anyone not crying?

Speaker 3 I got the first.

Speaker 3 Sister, cried.

Speaker 3 That doesn't happen in our family, Tracy.

Speaker 5 I'm just sitting kind of

Speaker 2 in awe

Speaker 2 of

Speaker 5 the life that you have built built with such intention and how utterly uncompromising you've been in terms of being

Speaker 5 yourself and like all of the passions and agency and choices that that means. What do you attribute that to?

Speaker 3 Like, what do you attribute your kind of

Speaker 2 ability?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Well, what she does, Tracy doesn't abandon herself.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, you know, it's interesting.

Speaker 4 I've really learned how to do that because I think that I have abandoned myself way too many times.

Speaker 4 Way too many times.

Speaker 4 But each time in the aftermath of the hurt,

Speaker 4 I do ask myself the question of how do I not end up here again? And what I have discovered is I will end up here again.

Speaker 1 Oh, God, it's true.

Speaker 4 Damn it.

Speaker 1 Why do we have to keep learning those same same lessons over and over?

Speaker 4 I just think that's it though. It's funny.
I just, I have been nursing another

Speaker 4 just deep disappointment. And

Speaker 4 my little inner child was, she was just

Speaker 4 crying, just crying so hard. And for the first time,

Speaker 4 I was able to sit with her. And I was like, here's the thing, my love.

Speaker 4 I'm not going anywhere.

Speaker 4 I'm not going anywhere.

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 4 I don't know how to be anybody else. I just don't.

Speaker 4 But what I know how to do is to be me and to just hold that space with as much compassion and curiosity and gentleness as possible and to find all the things, even if it's a bag of freaking funions.

Speaker 4 Like, what is it? What is it that we need today?

Speaker 4 to just try and hold that space of love. I think that's the thing we're sold that's wrong.
I don't don't know that life is supposed to be a thing that just feels good all the time. That's right.

Speaker 4 But how can we hold the spaces and the days and the periods when it just doesn't feel good?

Speaker 4 And I just feel so unlovable. And like, how can I have the hurt without deciding it means I'm unlovable? How do you not give meaning to it?

Speaker 4 And that's where the work is, like in that little space, right?

Speaker 4 Because I tell you, I mean,

Speaker 4 I mean, this is, I'm on the floor half the time. One of your questions, what was the question? Like, how often do you feel bad? What is I saw?

Speaker 3 Yeah, how often are you down?

Speaker 2 Oh,

Speaker 2 a lot.

Speaker 2 Lots of times. Like three last year?

Speaker 4 Three last year? I'm joking.

Speaker 2 I'm like, do you mean yep? Do you mean

Speaker 2 like, what?

Speaker 4 I don't remember last year. I am bogged down by this year.
Thank you. I'm bogged down by this week.
And the thing that's crazy to me is like, you're just sailing along.

Speaker 2 It's like a good one.

Speaker 4 I'm like, feeling good. You got your sweater.
And then like, and like, where does it come? I'm like, oh, I did not know I was going to get sideswiped by that.

Speaker 4 And why am I two days later still in a hangover? Why is it a week later? And also, I've learned that two both things, two things can be true at the same time.

Speaker 4 I can be really productive and doing really well, and also like heartbroken.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Something you just said:

Speaker 5 I don't know how to be anything but me.

Speaker 5 To me, that is

Speaker 5 so incredible because I know how to be

Speaker 2 anything.

Speaker 3 Like I

Speaker 5 almost anything but me.

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 5 And so there is an equal amount of pain and loneliness in being able to be everything other than you.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 5 And so like

Speaker 5 that thing, how did you get to the place where you

Speaker 5 could A be you and identify it? Like this is Tracy. I can see it.
I can smell it, I can put it in a sweater. And then, how did you get to the place where you just couldn't be anything other than that?

Speaker 4 Well, I actually think that's the question is actually how the entrance into it was

Speaker 4 making friends with the loneliness and the hurt that comes on either side

Speaker 4 because I was other than me forever.

Speaker 2 And I still have days where I'm like, why the fuck did I just say that?

Speaker 4 I don't, I didn't believe what it, what, who was that person that was so weird?

Speaker 2 Like, why did I do that? Like,

Speaker 4 you get home and you're like, Oh my God, that person thinks I'm a person who doesn't.

Speaker 2 I don't do that. Yeah, yeah, no worries, I'll just move.

Speaker 4 Like, yeah, like, God, that's what, that's what I think every time a bug comes in my house.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 good for you.

Speaker 4 This is your lovely new home.

Speaker 4 Um, also, you know, I don't have kids, I don't have, I haven't had a partner. So I have been forced to go like,

Speaker 2 well, I don't know. What do I want then?

Speaker 4 There's so many things I don't do because there's only so many things you can do alone. And I do a lot of the things alone that most people are like, I can't believe you do that alone.

Speaker 4 I go on vacations alone. I go to dinner alone on a Friday night at seven or eight o'clock.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 Like, I do all those things, but there's certain things that like, I'm not going to do alone. I'm just not.

Speaker 4 And so

Speaker 4 I've been forced to kind of figure out that going in my closet and making an outfit like really makes me happy. You know what I mean? Like I get jazzed up and I'm like, that was good.

Speaker 2 Now I'm going to go watch the crown. Good night.
Yay!

Speaker 4 Like, woo, this day was good.

Speaker 2 You know, I'm going to eat a whole jar of olives all by myself.

Speaker 4 Even though my sister said, I smell like olives when I spy.

Speaker 2 I like olives. I'm going to eat the whole jar.

Speaker 4 Like now I just, I literally, people bag, you know, open a bag of potato chips. I take a jar of olives and I pour the liquid out and then I dump it into a bowl and I eat the bowl of olives.

Speaker 3 It sounds like heaven.

Speaker 4 It's heaven to me. But so I think it's more the other thing.
Cause I think we all suffer with, am I this or am I that?

Speaker 4 But like, how do we tend to, how do we hold really lovingly and gently the aftermath that comes up? Yeah.

Speaker 4 The shame, the all those things that you should be doing something different, living a different way, should have done it differently, said it differently, or whatever.

Speaker 4 Like, how do you hold that part of you? Because that's the thing I think that holds us back from actually having a life that we want to live. But I struggle with all

Speaker 4 I mean, there's, I'm just bumbling along over here. Don't compare your insides to other people's outsides.
You know what I mean? That's right. Like it always looks like it's easier over there.

Speaker 3 But it's also knowing that losing somebody hurts. And then the losing yourself hurts more.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah. It's I love you, but I love me more.
Yeah. You know, and that, that's a really hard one

Speaker 4 that doesn't work every day.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It doesn't work every day.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I love you, but I love you more. So fuck it.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 Today you win, buddy.

Speaker 2 Right. Today, I said, today

Speaker 4 I have thrown me out the window, my dear friend.

Speaker 2 You know, I got this Twitter and I'm going out.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And tomorrow I will, I will deal with the aftermath.

Speaker 2 That's right.

Speaker 4 You will call the therapist and the squad of friends and we will try and put me back together because I obviously threw me out into a whole bunch of pieces.

Speaker 4 I also used to be a person, I swear to God, I would run the things by everybody, like go to like put 20 on the gas tank number 12.

Speaker 4 and let me ask you a question so there was this there was this guy that said and so he called and then i called should i do i call him back or i don't i mean i just i know oh yes on 12 number 12 i guess but do you have any experience with this because of your objective and i know you don't know me so i just want to run this by you is there anything you could tell me about your choice when it comes to the calling him back do i went two days like you know what i'm saying i do i do i mean i tried to do i'm gonna try everybody you know what i mean or the my life is mine speech like that was all my favorite line in that was

Speaker 4 i asked my ex-boyfriend

Speaker 4 like tell tell us get out of here get out of here tracy like come on like you have not been with this person in how long what you doing girl i know You don't need his permission, but it still comes up, you know?

Speaker 2 And I also

Speaker 5 six people who haven't listened to that glitter

Speaker 5 speech,

Speaker 5 it was the realization that Tracy came to after she found herself stewing over the need to tell her very ex boyfriend that she was

Speaker 5 interested in seeing other people.

Speaker 4 If you're listening, you couldn't see. I rolled my eyes so hard that I thought they might get stuck behind my head at the thought of myself doing that.

Speaker 4 This is the thing. I have a friend who also says, you know, we know better.
We don't always do better.

Speaker 3 That's amen. And sometimes we know we're not doing better and we choose it anyway.

Speaker 4 And we choose it anyway. That's right.
And so what? And that's the same person who says, hey, babe, why don't you give yourselves 1,000 breaks?

Speaker 2 And then we're going to do it.

Speaker 3 Can I have that friend's number also?

Speaker 2 You do.

Speaker 2 She's not on the podcast.

Speaker 3 She might be my actual best friend.

Speaker 4 Because it's crazy. Like, you just, yeah, you don't know.
And she always says to me, it's not always what you're doing. It's the questions you're asking.
Just ask the right questions, you know.

Speaker 1 I don't know about you, but mornings in our house can feel like a marathon before 9 a.m.

Speaker 1 And I am just used to powering right on through, which always left me dragging by mid-morning. Cachava has completely changed that for me.

Speaker 1 It's a plant-based superfood meal shake that actually feels like real nourishment, not some chalky health drink.

Speaker 1 With over 85 superfoods, nutrients, and plant-based ingredients, cachava is a whole-body meal that supports your strength, energy, digestion, metabolism, cognition, and immunity.

Speaker 1 And best of all, it's the taste. They really understand that we need to be motivated by actual flavor here.

Speaker 1 I have more steady energy, fewer crashes, and I am not rummaging through the pantry at 10 a.m. for snacks.

Speaker 1 It's become this little anchor in my day, something easy and good I can do for myself, even on the most chaotic mornings.

Speaker 1 If you've seen me recently, I'm probably sipping on their new strawberry flavor. They use real freeze-dried strawberries, and you can really actually taste the difference.

Speaker 1 You've never tasted strawberry like this. Go to cachava.com and use code WeCandoHardThings for 15% off your next order.
That's cachava, k-a-c-h-a-v-a.com. Code we can do hard things for 15%

Speaker 1 off.

Speaker 3 you know what's interesting to me is while you're talking and you're talking about how you talk to yourself and i know how you've talked to other people in real life and i was thinking about how you've mentioned twice that well i don't have kids but and i was thinking that the people i have three people in my life who i consider to be the best mothers like

Speaker 3 you know what i'm going to say right now

Speaker 2 who

Speaker 3 just have the most

Speaker 3 pristine mothering energy

Speaker 3 And it's you. And these are the people in my life.
You, Liz Gilbert, and Alex Heddison. And what's, what do they all three have in common? They don't fucking have kids.
Yep.

Speaker 2 Yeah. They're all very

Speaker 3 they're the, oh, they're also all gorgeous. Yeah.

Speaker 3 They're the best mothers that I know.

Speaker 4 I will say I say this to people all the time. I'm a wonderful mother.

Speaker 2 Wonderful.

Speaker 4 And I'm very mothering. And

Speaker 4 it's been hard for me to claim that

Speaker 4 in a world where I don't have the thing that says, I mean, what was I just writing as I'm trying to, let me see, hold on.

Speaker 4 I can feel my body's ability. This was journal entry from like three or four days ago.
I can feel my body's ability to make a child draining out of me.

Speaker 4 Sometimes I find it hilarious and as if there's a fire sale going on in my uterus and someone's in there screaming, all things must go. And then I look down and blah, blah, blah, skip that.

Speaker 4 And then this is what's interesting to me.

Speaker 4 As my body becomes a foreign place to me that doesn't really feel safe or like home, and I don't know how to manage or control or fight the external binary narrative of the patriarchy that has hunted me and haunted me most of my adult life.

Speaker 4 Is it my fertility that is leaving me? Is it my womanhood? Or is it really neither?

Speaker 4 But I have to fight to hold my truth because I have been programmed so successfully by the water we all swim in, by the water we all are served.

Speaker 4 And I feel fertile with creativity, full of power, more and more a woman than I've ever been.

Speaker 4 And yet that power that I was told I must use was not used. A power,

Speaker 4 yeah, I mean, just trying to figure out sort of what that means, like because my ability to have a child is leaving me, but like, I don't, I don't agree that that's what fertile means.

Speaker 4 I don't agree that that's what woman means,

Speaker 4 which is why the freedom that the expansion around gender has offered me

Speaker 4 and the knowledge that is being shared with us by the trans community is like, oh my God, thank you.

Speaker 4 Like, thank you for finally unpacking something that like I had no ability to unpack because of what was handed to me in a culture that like thought of it in such a limited way.

Speaker 4 And so trying to make sense of that at this age with my own limited point of view

Speaker 4 is really fun, honestly.

Speaker 3 Thank you for sharing that. Yeah.

Speaker 4 It was gorgeous.

Speaker 5 And what if that idea of fertility from so young,

Speaker 5 if it was handed to us and saying, what are you going to do with this fertility that you have?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 5 one minute aspect of that might be that you choose to reproduce.

Speaker 2 If that's your fertility

Speaker 5 is this big. And then we would realize, God, how many generations and generations of fallow ground because we were never

Speaker 5 presented with our own creative,

Speaker 5 forward-thinking, beautiful fertility.

Speaker 3 And then all the women who just have kids who everyone looks at them and says, well, you should be freaking happy. You did the thing.
You did the one fertile thing.

Speaker 3 And no, they maybe had a wide vast of what their fertility could have birthed into the world.

Speaker 4 Now, it really, it's heartbreaking.

Speaker 4 It's a heartbreaking thought. It's heartbreaking.
And I'm grateful to be able

Speaker 4 to look at it with curiosity instead of heartbreak.

Speaker 4 And the heartbreak does come up.

Speaker 4 And I get to hold that gently and lovingly and then say, remind myself, like, I woke up every morning of my life and I've tried to do my best. So I must be where I'm supposed to be.

Speaker 1 Well, thank you for speaking up too on behalf of the trans community. I've never thought of it that way.

Speaker 4 And being a person who won't have my own biological children, you just kind of gave me a little bit of a roadmap of work I need to do.

Speaker 1 And I just, I'm really grateful for all that you just said. That was unreal.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 3 She's something, Miss Lynn.

Speaker 3 She's something.

Speaker 4 It's so hard for me to take any of that in, but it is

Speaker 4 an unbelievable

Speaker 4 injustice

Speaker 4 that is laid on all of us as human beings

Speaker 4 that there is one

Speaker 4 pathway

Speaker 4 that is

Speaker 4 informed by this

Speaker 4 random construct that somebody came up with around gender.

Speaker 4 When I pull back from it, I'm like, that's like a joke.

Speaker 2 Who did that?

Speaker 2 You know what I mean? Like, I'm just like, who, who did that?

Speaker 4 That's, that's not, that's so silly.

Speaker 4 You've just limited so much, so much life. You've limited so much life.

Speaker 5 And so it's almost like that was the point.

Speaker 2 Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 4 It's almost like that was the point, you know, really. Like, it's like terrifying when you think about it.
You're just like, oh my gosh. So, yeah, I ponder these things a lot.

Speaker 4 And then every once in a while, I hear something and I'm just like, right. Like, what, why did I, why,

Speaker 4 why did I?

Speaker 4 and then I have to forgive. We all have to forgive ourselves because we come by it honestly.
It's what we've been served.

Speaker 2 It's what we've been given.

Speaker 4 And the courage of those that

Speaker 4 give us a different roadmap that shares something that opens up and unlocks a space that we had locked down unconsciously is always such a gift.

Speaker 3 When your sister Rhonda, who I love so much, when she gave the toast.

Speaker 4 You know, she's the wise one, by the way. Like I'm chopped, like I'm chopped liver in my family.
Like my siblings are like

Speaker 4 the shizness, all your siblings, just like they're just magical, they take care of me, you know what I mean? They love you.

Speaker 1 The love you have for each other is just the love is so palpable.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that was one of my favorite things about the night is just watching your siblings watch you.

Speaker 3 Anyway, glowing, all glowing. Okay.

Speaker 2 Um, I forgot what I was gonna say.

Speaker 3 Rhonda. Rhonda.
Okay. And then she said,

Speaker 3 she quoted you back to you when she said, my life is mine. And then you sang a song that was your mom's song.
And then, as you said in the beginning, you were saying, I'm 50 and free. I'm 50 and free.

Speaker 2 What

Speaker 3 are you free from? When you were saying that, what were you thinking?

Speaker 3 And maybe freeing from, like, maybe we're never free from anything.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't know that I'll ever be free from some of these things. I've actually read little things I wrote when I was like 15 and 12.

Speaker 4 And I'm like, wow, I've been chomping on this stuff forever.

Speaker 3 Almost, almost done.

Speaker 5 In another 50 years, you're going to have it nailed, Drace.

Speaker 4 I am going to have this stuff nailed.

Speaker 2 I would tell you. Think of the costumes.

Speaker 4 Think of the costumes.

Speaker 4 I remember this moment.

Speaker 4 I was crying so hard to this particular friend.

Speaker 2 And I was like, I just, I don't, I don't think, I just don't think like, I just, I'm not right. Like, I just, the people I'm just not lovable.
Like, I do it all wrong and she was like oh

Speaker 2 hold on hold on you know maybe you're just not everyone's cup of tea and I was like but I want to be everybody's cup of tea like I want everybody to do this like I want to be everybody's cup of tea

Speaker 4 okay but maybe you're not and I was like okay

Speaker 4 And she said, why don't you do this? Why don't you make a list of all of the things that you like about yourself? And I was like, that seems crazy.

Speaker 4 And I made this list and I realized that so many of the things that I like about myself are the things that I do think are difficult for people, but they're the things that I like about myself.

Speaker 4 That I'm not afraid to say when I don't think something feels right.

Speaker 4 That I'm not afraid to say when something doesn't feel right for me, no matter how far and deeply into that thing I am.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 4 That I have a really loud laugh. Like all these different things, right? That make me me maybe not everyone's cup of tea.

Speaker 4 And that like totally changed my relationship to those aspects of me that I think I was trying to hide in order to be chosen, to be lovable, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 4 So I don't know that my discomfort with not being everyone's cup of tea or

Speaker 4 the

Speaker 4 unlovability and self-loathing that comes up. I don't know that those are ever going to go away.

Speaker 4 I think that what I am free from or that I have a different relationship to them. And the same way you say we can do hard things, which I use all the time and is just such a good guiding force.

Speaker 4 Like, I can do hard things. I can also be uncomfortable.
I could also be comfortable when I'm uncomfortable.

Speaker 4 I can also

Speaker 4 be happy even if I don't like how everything's going.

Speaker 4 I don't know if it's what I'm free from, but I have a larger container now

Speaker 4 to hold myself.

Speaker 4 And I know myself really well.

Speaker 4 And it's taken a lot of time to have the courage to actually live my life as that person.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 I have a lot of experience chewing on ground glass and sort of not really.

Speaker 4 and sort of sitting with the discomfort of I might have ruined that thing. You know, my big

Speaker 4 fear was, am I going to ruin the course of my destiny if I make the wrong choice? And my spiritual awakening in life has been, I'm okay.

Speaker 4 You can't ruin it, babe.

Speaker 4 You're okay. That's it.
There was no burning bush. It was just, you're okay.
And sometimes enough is enough. I don't have to make it better.
It's just fine. It's just fine.
You're fine, sweetie.

Speaker 2 It's fine.

Speaker 4 You don't have everything you want. It's fine.

Speaker 2 I love your laugh.

Speaker 2 My laugh. Think about how weak you have

Speaker 3 to be everyone's cup of tea. You'd have to be the weakest ass tea.

Speaker 4 You'd have to be the weakest ass tea. You'd have to be water.
No, you'd have to be water.

Speaker 2 And you can't even be warm water.

Speaker 5 You're going to be like lukewarm.

Speaker 2 And by the way, even people don't like water.

Speaker 3 That's right.

Speaker 2 Some people don't people hate water.

Speaker 4 It's not possible. No.
That's right.

Speaker 3 It's not possible. And the more flavorful you are, the narrow your tea audience might be.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it might be a narrow tea audience. Yeah.

Speaker 3 You know, I do think that your audience is pretty damn wide, though, Tracy. I'll do it.

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 4 I think I bug the hell out of a lot of people.

Speaker 2 I think you're the right ones. I think they're the right ones.
Okay, maybe.

Speaker 3 Maybe. They're a different cauldron.
Then we are going to let you go because

Speaker 4 we could talk forever, but how long have we been talking? Has this been like seven hours?

Speaker 3 It's been an hour. It's been an hour.
And it's been one of my favorite hours of this entire show. Seriously.

Speaker 3 And once again, you have shown up with all of your power and vulnerability, and somehow they're the exact same thing.

Speaker 3 And once again, I just, I just really love you.

Speaker 4 I feel the same way. I just want to say to the three A Yas

Speaker 4 that I'm so grateful. I'm grateful to

Speaker 4 Amanda to know you,

Speaker 4 but to also

Speaker 4 have the honor of being a Cauldron sister with you.

Speaker 4 and to live in a world where we can have conversations that are this gentle and

Speaker 4 and quiet and loud and that you have these conversations with lots of people. Like, what a blessing.
And you have them publicly and then you also have them privately.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 That's a really special thing that I don't think exists everywhere. It's a special thing that you're bringing it into the world and I'm happy to be a part of it.

Speaker 2 You're a remarkable human.

Speaker 3 We give you Tracy Ellis Ross. I'm not going to promise that it's ever going to get better than that.
So just re-listen, okay?

Speaker 5 For every other episode, enough is enough.

Speaker 2 Downhill from here. It's enough.
It's enough.

Speaker 3 And when life gets hard this week, you're going to remind yourself: it's okay, sweetie.

Speaker 2 It's okay. It's okay.
Gentle, gentle, gentle, gentle.

Speaker 4 I'm right here. Right here.
Not going anywhere.

Speaker 3 Bye.

Speaker 4 Bye.

Speaker 3 I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle.

Speaker 2 I walked through fire, I came out the other side.

Speaker 2 I chased desire,

Speaker 2 I made sure

Speaker 2 I got what's mine.

Speaker 2 And I continue

Speaker 2 to believe

Speaker 2 that I'm the one for me.

Speaker 2 And because I'm mine,

Speaker 2 I walk the line.

Speaker 2 Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are back.

Speaker 2 A final destination

Speaker 2 we lack.

Speaker 2 We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 2 to places they've never been.

Speaker 2 And to be loved, we need to belong.

Speaker 2 We'll finally find our way back home.

Speaker 2 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 2 that our lives bring,

Speaker 2 we can do a heart gain.

Speaker 2 I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

Speaker 2 I'm not the problem,

Speaker 2 sometimes

Speaker 2 things fall apart.

Speaker 2 And I continue to believe

Speaker 2 the best

Speaker 2 people are free.

Speaker 2 And it took some time,

Speaker 2 but I'm finally fine.

Speaker 2 Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are map.

Speaker 2 A final destination

Speaker 2 lack.

Speaker 2 We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 2 to places they've never been.

Speaker 2 And to be loved, we need to belong.

Speaker 2 We'll finally find our way back home.

Speaker 2 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 2 that our lives

Speaker 2 bring,

Speaker 2 we can do a heart today.

Speaker 2 We're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

Speaker 2 We might get lost, but we're okay with that. We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 2 in to places they've never been.

Speaker 2 And to be loved, we need to belong.

Speaker 2 We'll finally find

Speaker 2 our way back home.

Speaker 2 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 2 that our lives bring,

Speaker 2 we can do hard things.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we can do hard things.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we

Speaker 2 can do hard

Speaker 2 things.

Speaker 3 We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 3 Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it.
It's fine.