151. WTF with The Five Love Languages?

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Speaker 2 Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. This is take two.
Sweet Pod Squad, you should know we just did this entire introduction to you. And somehow in the first 45 seconds, Abby and I got in a huge fight.

Speaker 2 I just ruined it. I was trying to be fun and then you thought it was serious and I wasn't.
And so we got in a fight, an argument, and the energy is so weird. Isn't this recording?

Speaker 3 I think we should just clear the energy. I love you.

Speaker 2 I love you so much. I feel like the energy is totally fine because, again, I was actually totally kidding.
Okay. The whole way through.

Speaker 3 Well, you both are going to get a thank you note in the mail from me because you really just teed up this pod we're doing today on love languages just perfectly. Because, I mean,

Speaker 3 can I just say that? What's better than a misunderstanding? What's better than that?

Speaker 2 I would say that one of my communication pet peeves

Speaker 2 is when someone says something

Speaker 2 and then they, and you feel it and you want to respond.

Speaker 2 And it was a big deal or it was something that, you know, was hurtful or whatever. And then the person says, oh, it's okay.
I was just kidding. But I was just kidding.

Speaker 2 But if you're kidding, there's still truth in the thing. No, you said.
No, there is no truth in it. I was just trying to be funny.
Okay.

Speaker 3 And just to put the pod squad out of your what the hell just happened misery, the whole thing was Glennon asked me how I was doing

Speaker 3 and I answered. And then she started to talk and then she came back and said, oh, hun, I'm sorry.
How How are you doing?

Speaker 3 And then Abby said, oh, it's always all about sister. How's she doing?

Speaker 2 Not about me. Okay.

Speaker 3 That,

Speaker 3 that was the seismic argument

Speaker 3 that we had. And then Glennon tried to dig in and say, oh my gosh, what is this about? Abby said she was kidding.
Glennon refused to believe she was kidding. Abby said she was kidding again.

Speaker 3 Glennon again refused to believe she was kidding. Okay, so that is the entirety of what you missed.

Speaker 2 So, you have just witnessed an alert-level red lesbian argument.

Speaker 3 Okay, in my relationship, let's just say that would not have registered on the Richter. But here we are, and it is big fix-ins for Glendon and Abby.

Speaker 2 Okay, so we're all right. Take that to our therapist later.
But today, I'm sweating, that's so good. Isn't it ironic? We are discussing love languages: how

Speaker 2 we offer love, and how we receive love best. And how sometimes someone could be offering us love, but if it's in a language we don't understand, we don't necessarily receive it as love.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 let's hear from our pod squad about their love languages.

Speaker 4 This is Lisa, and my love language is yes, and.

Speaker 4 If I say, let's go to dinner, I hear yes, and it should be Mexican food, or yes, and I want it to be fun, or yes, and let's get a babysitter and leave the kids at home. This is Kara.

Speaker 4 My love language is being home alone all day.

Speaker 4 Maybe the dog can stay, but an empty ass house

Speaker 4 and some garbage television.

Speaker 4 I don't get that on a semi-regular basis.

Speaker 4 I'm just depleted.

Speaker 4 I feel guilty about it, but it's the truth. An empty asshouse.

Speaker 4 Hi, I am Kira. My love language is remembering things about people's schedules and days and upcoming things and having people do the same for me.

Speaker 2 This is Kaylee.

Speaker 4 I'm 20 in college and my love language is,

Speaker 4 okay, it's going to sound weird, but my feet are always cold. So I love to shove them under people's legs.

Speaker 4 So if people make room for my feet under their legs when they're sitting or they cover my feet,

Speaker 2 that's my love language.

Speaker 4 My name's Gina, and if my husband offers to go to the grocery store,

Speaker 4 God forbid, Costco,

Speaker 4 I mean, that is as hot as things can get around here. I mean, it's amazing.
My name is Kate. So mine includes when people will have a dance party with me, when

Speaker 4 a loved one will eat ice cream with me, or let me give them a full recap of BruPaul's drag race. If you just let me go off on that or one of my other like favorite things.

Speaker 4 Also, when my cat just rubs her face on me because she wants to be pet and attention. I don't know if that counts, but I'm counting it because that is one of the ways I feel most loved.

Speaker 3 I really appreciate make room for my feet under their legs.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Just that little dig, you're a little, you're on the couch. And that's a level of intimacy that is underrated.

Speaker 3 Like I'm going to take the liberty to squeeze my little chicksies right under your leg where they're going to reside for the remainder of the movie. But that's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 2 I wonder,

Speaker 2 would they feel this way if the person who is sticking their feet under the leg had restless foot syndrome. Oh, I do.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Where they just move their feet constantly.
Yeah, that is a real thing. That's tough.

Speaker 2 Well, you may have noticed that this episode about love languages will not necessarily be framed completely around where we originated this language, which was from Gary Chapman's book.

Speaker 2 What was it called? The five love languages or something. Yep.

Speaker 3 It was 1992 book. And his idea is that everyone has preferences about how they would like to give and receive love.

Speaker 3 So there's a preferred language that everyone speaks, and it's either gifts, quality time, words of affirmation, physical touch, or acts of service.

Speaker 3 And the point is that that's how they express their love and that good partners, successful partners, will take the time to figure out how to express their love in a way that translates to their partner's language.

Speaker 3 That is the gist.

Speaker 2 We have scruples.

Speaker 3 We have scruples, but it has no doubt been a worldwide phenomenon. It sold like 12 million copies.

Speaker 2 It's so interesting when one of these books

Speaker 2 by a conservative fundamentalist type Christian pastor, which is what this man is, kind of leaks out into the

Speaker 2 general population, right? It happens every once in a while. Purpose-driven life did it with Rick Warren.

Speaker 2 Oh, my mom gave me that book. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Thank you, mom. I gave her the book that Ellen.
You gave her Ellen's biography. She gave me purpose-driven life.

Speaker 2 Battle of the ideology. Yeah, correlation.

Speaker 2 Battle of the ideologies. So I would like to speak to this phenomenon a little bit because I myself was in this world, this.

Speaker 2 Christian world where there is certain media that you're encouraged to consume. It's almost like propaganda, sort of.

Speaker 2 It's like how to keep you on the straight and narrow of the Christian faith, this brand of it. You have your own Christian bookstores.

Speaker 2 Just as an aside, my books, of course, stopped being carried in Christian bookstores.

Speaker 2 But when Carry On Were came out, they said, we'll sell it, but we put a big stick around it that says, read with discernment. Get out of here.
Do you see what that's saying about all the other books?

Speaker 2 What does discernment mean? It means be,

Speaker 2 think hard when you read it. Okay.
So it's hilarious because basically what they're saying is all these other books, don't think while you're reading them.

Speaker 3 The rest of these, just please mainline them in your system and commit them to memory. But this one, you should have to think, which is by its nature, automatically a dangerous proposition.

Speaker 2 And that's the whole purpose of reading. is to think while you're reading, but not in these necessarily in these places.
Truly, one of the goals

Speaker 2 is to put out this kind of information to keep people in the institutions that make the larger institution run.

Speaker 2 The larger institution being this, the Christian church, the smaller institution being marriage in this case. So Gary Chapman was not a therapist.

Speaker 2 He was a pastor who, because of his pastoring job, started seeing married married couples, men and women, because that would have been the only only kind of couple that was allowed in this church,

Speaker 2 and then just decided to make up these love languages to what he would say help these couples connect.

Speaker 2 What I would suggest possibly is that the goal was not necessarily to know each other deeply, but to keep people in Christian marriage.

Speaker 2 For example, there's a lot of majorly problematic ideas in these five love languages, which were problematic just in the book, but also the way they were disseminated by all the other pastors.

Speaker 2 First of all, that it was so heteronormative, but also, well, if your husband,

Speaker 2 if the way that he needs love is by physical touch, you just do it.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And let's back up for a minute to talk about what you're saying. This guy's a Christian minister.
He has no formal training as a counselor or a researcher.

Speaker 3 The whole five love languages is not rooted in any psychological research. Nope.
In fact, it's never been able to be empirically

Speaker 3 validated in subsequent research that came out after

Speaker 3 this became just a worldwide phenomenon. So his book is absolutely rooted in Christian doctrine and heteronormativity and in these binary gender roles that are weaved throughout the entire book.

Speaker 3 And subsequently, thanks to

Speaker 3 A lot of great research that was done by Slate and LA Times and Scary Mommy.

Speaker 3 Several of these things have been uncovered, including homophobic material that was published on his site. So for example, in

Speaker 3 2013, a mom wrote in to him based on her son Cummings and saying that he was gay. And he wrote back, quote, men and women are made for each other in God's design.

Speaker 3 Anything other than that is outside of that primary design of God. And he advised her to, quote, express your disappointment and or lack of understanding.

Speaker 3 End quote. So, so my dude who is words of affirmation, et cetera, is suggesting that the best way to love your kid is to express your disappointment.

Speaker 2 When they show you who they are. And I just want to emphasize that that's what I mean, that there is no true know each other, complicated, messy, meeting each other.

Speaker 2 It's no, keep everybody in their role. I don't want this conversation to feel like I'm like, oh, those people, how could they think that way?

Speaker 2 Because I used to think that way, not with the homophobic shit, but I used to read mainline this stuff. I was so afraid.
I felt like I loved my family so much.

Speaker 2 And I was indoctrinated in these places that told me that the only way that you will keep your family safe is if you follow these rules.

Speaker 2 I remember sitting in on my porch and reading these books. There were these books, Prayers for Your Kid.
And the idea was, you will keep your kid safe if you pray these prayers.

Speaker 2 And I used to just like sit on my porch and just like write them all down and say them over and over and over again.

Speaker 2 Because I don't know. I was, I was,

Speaker 2 it's so tempting, this, this idea of they tell you that you need to be scared. You know, who was it? It was like somebody that said that the churches are like the mafia.

Speaker 2 Like you don't even know you have a problem. They come to your door.
They're like, You're going to hell, and you're like, Now I have a problem, and they're like, Okay, but here's the solution,

Speaker 2 right? And so, the solution is all of these things that really actually seem more like superstition than faith because they're all these things you have to say and do.

Speaker 2 But the goal is not to free yourself and free your people and live in this messy humanity together and take care of each other. The goal is to keep everybody in their little bottle so that the system

Speaker 2 can continue on the way it always has.

Speaker 3 This has obviously been a worldwide phenomenon for very good reasons. People aren't coming to this because they want to uphold the institution of heteronormative Christian marriage.

Speaker 3 They're coming to this because it is a

Speaker 3 possibility of solving their deep personal needs. But the motivation matters as to why it was created and what it intends to uphold.

Speaker 3 So physical touch element, where that was defined as a love language in the book. And there was a woman who

Speaker 3 in one chapter, her relationship has turned toxic and arguably even borderline abusive. And he counsels her in this

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 she needs to offer herself sexually to her husband regularly for six months, even within the confines of that toxic relationship. And then he,

Speaker 3 you know, ties it up together with in the next six months, and he saw a tremendous change in Glenn's attitude and treatment of her.

Speaker 3 As if your treatment depends on you checking this box, even if it doesn't feel safe or like it's meeting your needs. And if you do that, you'll start getting treated better.

Speaker 3 So there's a lot of ways that this not only has been a superficial approach to love, but also

Speaker 3 actually damaging

Speaker 3 people.

Speaker 2 I spent my whole life not necessarily

Speaker 2 researching everything that I read and/or figured out where it started and the origin of it, like you two. You guys are much more

Speaker 2 intentional and discerning. Discerning.

Speaker 2 I have to just say this because I came across this book years and years ago

Speaker 2 and it was really helpful for me, even though I knew that it was super gaudy, like it still kind of gave me some parameters for me to start the process of thinking about how to

Speaker 2 relationship. Yeah.
How to relate it. You know, and so same.
Yeah. I still want to pull out the goodness of it.

Speaker 2 And I think that that's kind of what. what we're talking about here.
We want to take the goodness of this, make it applicable to more people and everybody and how we really do receive it. Yes.

Speaker 2 offer love and meet each other and know each other because none of this is about knowing each other this is about like words we say things we do on the outside it's very like acting that these love languages it's very like say these things do these actions but it's not about like really getting inside and and knowing each other it's like relationship 101 it's like the very basics like well i don't even know if it's that i don't even think it's 101 i think it's deeper than that but it is a behavioral plan as opposed to an emotional plan.

Speaker 3 And so it's a lot like Dr. Becky was talking about with you can, you know, memorize the words, say X, Y, Z to your kids, and they will do one, two, three, but it isn't getting to the

Speaker 3 under that, which is the relationship on which that exchange is based. So I think that I'm exactly the same as you, Abby.
I read it like it was a revelation. It was really, really helpful to me.

Speaker 3 And I think I've been thinking a lot about this. And I think that the re, I think there's three

Speaker 3 reasons why that book has had such a seismic cultural shift. And I think the first one is that it

Speaker 3 very

Speaker 3 strategically kind of reduces this untameable mystery of love

Speaker 3 into a formula,

Speaker 3 which is very, a very, very compelling promise.

Speaker 2 Love that formula.

Speaker 3 And so that's tempting, especially people who are desperate for connection. It's like, oh, you mean I can just perfect.

Speaker 2 It's math.

Speaker 3 It's math. I add your love language in, you add mine.
Perfect. It's done.
But the second thing, and I think that the next two things that it did are really

Speaker 3 pointing towards

Speaker 2 what

Speaker 3 is

Speaker 3 a

Speaker 3 super helpful thing in relationships. And that that I think maybe if you come in for five love languages, stay for attachment.

Speaker 3 Because the second thing it does is it kind of offers this simple shared language, acknowledging that there's something happening under the thing that's happening in your daily lives. Right.

Speaker 3 Other than just incompatibility. Like you're looking at your lives.
You're like, this isn't working. And the way that

Speaker 3 he comes in and says, oh, there's something under that. It's that you're not speaking the same language.
That is just a helpful way to start to understand that there's always a thing under the thing

Speaker 3 and to have a language about it.

Speaker 3 And then the third thing is, I think it provides this kind of schema for

Speaker 3 how you can have a fundamental misalignment

Speaker 3 in how each partner gives and receives love

Speaker 3 so that you can both be loving each other the same amount and with with equal ferocity, but you are utterly missing each other.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 3 And that at the end of the day is, I think, where people need to get

Speaker 3 where I have found the most actual relief in relationships is to be like, wait, so I'm rushing toward conflict because that's how I love you.

Speaker 3 And I want to benefit our relationship by like entering into that conflict. You,

Speaker 3 because you love me and want to benefit this relationship, are sprinting as far away from conflict as possible. So, we are doing the opposite thing and trying desperately to love each other.

Speaker 3 And I think that's like the path that people should go on

Speaker 3 from this very simplistic situation.

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Speaker 2 There is this thing that this book does that that reminds me so much of what religion can do, which is like there's this messy wild thing, whether it's faith or whether it's love.

Speaker 2 And it's so powerful in our lives and we don't understand it and we want to be able to control it. And they're uncontrollable forces.
So we're all terrified of it.

Speaker 2 And so there are these people that are like, we've figured it out.

Speaker 3 It's just a formula.

Speaker 2 We have simplified it. Follow these rules and you'll be safe.
It's what I wanted for my family.

Speaker 2 I was so scared of fucking it up. I wanted someone to promise me if I do A, then B

Speaker 2 will happen. And that's what this feels like.

Speaker 2 It's all external because if you can give your partner sex, but there's nothing in this that talks about what if when you're giving your partner sex, because that's what they want, you feel dead inside.

Speaker 2 You feel that it's not real. You feel that it's not really connection.
Doesn't matter. Just do the thing.
And then the other person does the dishes. And then there's nothing, there's no like,

Speaker 2 you know, acknowledgement of what's happening on the inside. There's nothing that's integrated about it.

Speaker 3 I think what you're saying is so important. And I think that the way to understand

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 in how it plays out, it's a behavior plan. I do the dishes.

Speaker 3 You make yourself available sexually, but it doesn't acknowledge like this underlying fear or story we're telling ourselves that makes that behavior feel desperately needed.

Speaker 3 And it doesn't acknowledge the giver's underlying issues that are preventing you from wanting to make yourself available for sexually. And so it's just not an emotionally based approach.

Speaker 3 It's a behavior-based approach. And if you're just addressing behaviors, if you're just addressing symptoms, then you are never going to get to the underlying emotional stability

Speaker 3 that won't require this constant influx of behaviors to keep the fear at bay. So if you're in a relationship that is

Speaker 3 that is not as strong as it could be, it's like everybody has a headache. Okay.
And the prescription is you keep feeding each other pain meds, but like no one's getting to the why you have a headache.

Speaker 3 So you just have to feed the beast over and over

Speaker 3 in order to keep the headache at bay. Whereas if you just went in and were like, why do you need X? Why do you, why are you so desperate for words of affirmation? Is it because you don't feel seen?

Speaker 3 Is it because you have a fear of your whole life going through and never be really seen or known? Why do you have such a desperate need for sex?

Speaker 3 Is it because it's the only place in this relationship where you get reassurance and comfort and closeness?

Speaker 3 Okay, well, then if you just address those underlying things,

Speaker 3 then

Speaker 3 the behaviors will either take care of themselves or they won't be so desperately needed.

Speaker 2 I like that. I also think it's interesting that the physical touch is the one kind of love offering and receiving that doesn't require language, language, language.

Speaker 2 Women are more conditioned to communicate that way.

Speaker 2 And it's interesting that what you said, maybe the one place I feel love, the one place I don't feel incapable, the one place I don't feel like I can't keep up with you,

Speaker 2 right? Is this place that doesn't require me to have all of this language to express to you my love and receive love?

Speaker 3 It's also this snowballing problem because if I don't, if I don't get to the place where I truly understand the thing underneath your desire for sex,

Speaker 3 then not only am I just checking a box, no pun intended, to

Speaker 3 like show up for that, but I also am doubling down on my resentment and estrangement to you because all I can think about is

Speaker 3 we have no closeness and intimacy in our relationship, and yet you want this thing. Yeah.
So therefore, intimacy with me is not even required for us to have sex.

Speaker 3 If a partner comes and says, my love language is physical touch, therefore I need more sex.

Speaker 3 As opposed to a partner coming and saying, our relationship

Speaker 3 is so devoid of intimacy and all of these levels that when we have sex, it's the only time I can feel assured that you are not going to leave me.

Speaker 3 It's the only time where I can feel assured that we can

Speaker 3 reconnect in a real way. And therefore, my need for it feels very high.
You're going to go into that situation with a totally different perspective.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Of that is that person's desire to be intimate with you, not that is just a

Speaker 3 outside of me

Speaker 3 random need for sexual contact.

Speaker 2 It's like the wrapping paper instead of the gift. It's like, do I want to do acts of service for you? Do I want to make out with you?

Speaker 2 Because we have constantly worked on this thing where we desperately know each other. We feel connected to each other.

Speaker 2 So those things are just natural outpourings of this internal knowing that is love. And I'm just doing those things, hoping the other thing follows.
Or

Speaker 2 the way that I've seen it's done so much in the church, which is just do those things.

Speaker 2 And it doesn't matter if the real love connection deep thing ever happens because the goal is just to keep this institution moving, not ever to get to the depths of each other.

Speaker 3 And it might not be automatic because, like, the research that has happened

Speaker 3 after this became a phenomenon does show that the love languages, you know, what is described in there of quality time. First of all, every relationship needs quality time.

Speaker 2 Bare minimum.

Speaker 2 Situation.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 words of affirmation, et cetera, that those do reflect behaviors that

Speaker 3 are vital to relationship maintenance. So, but there is no correlation between any relational quality.
So how you feel your relationship is going to your being aligned at love languages.

Speaker 2 None.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 words of affirmation may not come naturally to me. It's important for me to be reminded of that because so I can expand my repertoire of showing my love.

Speaker 2 Okay. Words of affirmation don't matter unless the words I'm saying reflect that I know you deeply.
I just walk into, I love you, honey.

Speaker 2 That means nothing to me because I know you're just saying this thing.

Speaker 2 Words of affirmation are meaningful when they reflect that you know me so deeply that the words you are saying are ringing in my soul.

Speaker 2 Physical touch, just having sex means nothing unless what we are doing in the bedroom or wherever we are reflects that you know my body and you love me and you are, we are knowing each other through this whatever, right?

Speaker 2 Quality time.

Speaker 2 What does that mean unless the person who is with you knows you so well and you know them that you know exactly how you want to spend that time, where you want to spend that time, what your acts of service.

Speaker 2 If you're just doing the basics, what acts of service if those categories don't reflect knowing and caring and curiosity then all of those things are mean nothing it's what this act of service is where the quality of time is how the physical touches and what the words of affirmation are i'd love when you get fired up so much i agree with you from where you sit that is you and this can help out of a place of desperation because first of all there is not a truth in that we have one love language.

Speaker 3 We have a place that we have desperation

Speaker 3 the most.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 So we all

Speaker 3 give and receive love in myriad ways. There may be one way that we are self-reporting as highest.

Speaker 3 And by the way, they have had research that shows that what we report is not even necessarily true of us.

Speaker 2 That's so,

Speaker 2 I totally, I totally believe that. We don't know anything about ourselves.

Speaker 3 Right. And it's not immutable.
It changes over time, but it is possible that in this, in this situation, in this year, in this particular relationship, I am most desperate for X.

Speaker 3 But why are we most desperate? We are most desperate because we all have an underlying deep fear.

Speaker 3 That we are just really, really hoping that

Speaker 3 the showing of love will help quell that fear. Am I fearful that I will never be known? Am I fearful that I will never be safe? Am I fearful that I will always be deeply alone?

Speaker 3 It matters what your underlying fear is. Yes, yes.
It does, because then

Speaker 3 the things that people do for you

Speaker 3 have to be in reaction to that fear.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 They can't just be random. That doesn't mean as much.
And to push back a little bit on the sex thing, I think there's a lot of people that

Speaker 3 depending where you are in the severity of crisis in your relationship, it isn't necessarily that like you need to know every little thing about that person.

Speaker 3 Some people are so desperate to know that they still have a modicum of connection with their person.

Speaker 3 that the having of the sex will quell that fear for as long as I need it till we get to the next time.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, I get that.

Speaker 3 And I think that it all goes back to

Speaker 3 that it isn't as simple, that it is, it depends on the person and what they need and what they want. And so, reducing to just those five doesn't really do justice to the complexity of people.

Speaker 3 And kind of, if you stop there, you're not getting any further. So, this is why it was so cool to hear everybody's very idiosyncratic love languages because getting to know those

Speaker 3 are important.

Speaker 2 We are multilingual. We are multilingual.

Speaker 2 Multi-faceted. It's not just five love languages.

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Speaker 2 Let's hear from our Pie Squatters. This is Judith and my love language are concerts, specifically Brandy Carlisle concerts.

Speaker 4 This is Lisa and I would call my love language transparency and feeling loved when someone's words match up with their actions and when they do exactly what they say say they're gonna do at all times or they don't ever say anything that they don't intend to do.

Speaker 4 My name is Lori and I want to tell you that my love language is to plan something for me.

Speaker 4 Plan, don't ask me to decide anything. Just plan where we're going, what we're doing.
You don't have to pay for me. Just plan it all out and pick me up and let's go

Speaker 4 hi it's abby my love language is coffee

Speaker 2 nothing

Speaker 4 nothing brings me more joy than coffee being brought to me or being prepared for me and i know that's like it all falls in the acts of service love language thing but it's specific but it's specific i don't want toast i didn't ask for i always want coffee this is melanie My love language is sharing and listening to music that is very, very close to my heart and just doing it in silence and feeling the same emotions at the same time from the same song and talking and sharing about it afterwards.

Speaker 4 My name is Katie and my love language is making travel plans and also

Speaker 4 saying yes to one more episode of Ted Lasso even though it's late and we should really be going to bed.

Speaker 4 This is Caitlin and my love language is surprises so whether it's breakfast in bed or a surprise trip or even just like a slice of cheesecake or anything but the bottom line is anything I don't have to plan myself.

Speaker 4 This is Shannon. My love language? Oh, it's short and sweet.
Just somebody clean the fucking house besides me. And then I know you love me.

Speaker 3 Hi, my name is Noah. My love language is warm towels right out of the dryer, what I've gotten out of the shower in the winter.

Speaker 2 The breakfast and bed thing, here's what I mean, okay? Acts of service. Yes, breakfast and bed.

Speaker 2 It's the act of service matched with the knowing of the person that makes the act of service a love language, right? Yeah. One of your things would not be surprises.

Speaker 2 Right. You don't like surprises.
I don't really like surprises. I like control.
I know this because every time somebody talks about, I'm a surprise lover. I love surprises.
I love to do surprises.

Speaker 2 I love to get surprised.

Speaker 2 You don't. And so I have so much envy when I hear surprise love language and just like show up and don't make plan.
I, you know, like

Speaker 2 I like a surprise. I just want to help plan it.

Speaker 3 I like a surprise.

Speaker 2 I just want to help plan it.

Speaker 3 I

Speaker 3 really, with the one more episode of Ted Lasso, when it's ridiculously late and we should be going to sleep, I mean, I think that when it's like 1230 and we've been binge watching something and it's like, one more song, one more song.

Speaker 3 And I just look over and I'm like,

Speaker 3 should I can we, I want to watch another one.

Speaker 3 That's as vulnerable as I get.

Speaker 3 If he's like, actually, it's, it's 12.30, we should go to sleep now. And he's 100% correct.
And I'm like, I'm basically a girl standing in front of you, just asking to know

Speaker 3 if I can be myself and still be loved. And you just said, we need to turn off Ted Lazo.

Speaker 2 Yes, it's an abandoning. And that's an abandoning.
It's an abandoning.

Speaker 3 And I came up for like two weeks.

Speaker 2 It's an abandoning. I feel the same way when I, Abby and I have like a nightly tea ritual where we just, it's not fancy, we just drink tea

Speaker 2 at night. And it goes something like this.
Honey, do you want tea? Yeah. And when every once in a while, Abby will be like, no, I don't want tea.

Speaker 2 I receive it as an abandonment because the tea means we're going to stay up another 20 minutes. We're going to like drink this whole tea.

Speaker 2 I don't want tea means I'm going to bed right now, which makes me feel very abandoned in the scary, scary night. Yep.
I love the listening to music quietly.

Speaker 3 And I just wanted to shout out that love language.

Speaker 2 I have learned that love language is with my teenagers. So

Speaker 2 teenagers sometimes I have heard,

Speaker 2 don't talk to you as much. Okay.

Speaker 2 And so they become very mysterious and it doesn't work anymore to be like, I would like to sit down and have you talk to me about who you are and your feelings and such.

Speaker 2 But our teenagers in particular, from the time they were like, you know,

Speaker 2 preteens until now, forever, they are obsessed with music. And they love love lyrics and they love artists.
And so, I have learned that if I will sit and listen to their favorite song with them,

Speaker 2 it's a way of communicating. Yeah.
So, I have come up with some of my love languages that I would add if I were writing a book about love languages for myself. Okay, here's one:

Speaker 2 I feel passionate about solitude. A love language for me is someone who understands

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 solitude is

Speaker 2 a magical, important part of life.

Speaker 2 So if I'm reading or I'm, you know, by myself and the kids come up and you're like, mom's outside, don't bother her.

Speaker 2 I'm like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. The respect of solitude is very, very important to me.
And also,

Speaker 2 I like a person who is not afraid to be alone.

Speaker 2 Also, that's so funny.

Speaker 2 And that's just my stuff, but I always feel like good stuff happens when you're alone you're that means you're okay with being with your thoughts and your feelings and you come back with something that's original to you and not just a regurgitation of culture like i like someone who respects my solitude and someone who respects their own solitude i feel really proud of myself i never expected i when we first met

Speaker 2 I never thought we could have this conversation and be like, yeah, I actually feel fine about being alone and I feel fine about you having solitude.

Speaker 2 Like 10 years ago, Abby was like afraid to be alone and like needed to be completely enmeshed with my partner. Right.
It is. We've come to the end.
Good job, Abby.

Speaker 3 I wonder if, because I'm thinking of all of these languages and values, I'm thinking of the counterpoint of the fear under them, because I think there is the behavior and then the motivation of the behavior.

Speaker 3 Could the fear under your need for solitude be, I'm afraid of losing myself

Speaker 3 in a relationship?

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, our friend Esther Perel,

Speaker 2 she told me once that in a relationship, there's two kinds, there's two people. One is afraid of losing the other person and one is afraid of losing themselves.

Speaker 2 And I'm sure that's an oversimplification too. But

Speaker 2 there is probably that. like that that the fear of losing the individuality.

Speaker 2 But also, you know, part of sobriety is being okay with who you are in your own skin. Do you have one that you have identified as your own?

Speaker 3 There's been a couple of folks that have come up with new ways of innovating around love languages. I haven't done a deep dive into either of these folks, but Ann Hoddership

Speaker 3 talks about modern love languages and she

Speaker 3 has her new rubric. And then Molly Owens, who's founder of Truity, she has a new

Speaker 3 analysis that has seven. And I really like one of Hotter Ship's ones.
She talks about shared beliefs as a love language. She said, it's not just a love language, it's a sense of safety.

Speaker 3 I feel like my body can actually sit and melt into whatever surface is under my butt at the moment because we are on the same page about some important things regarding other people's humanity, for example, what matters in the world and what doesn't.

Speaker 3 There is an actual visceral bodily response to being in the presence of shared values for me. Yes.

Speaker 3 And I think that that

Speaker 3 encapsulates what actually,

Speaker 3 when we're doing this language correct, when we experience

Speaker 3 an a visceral bodily response to being in the presence of something we need,

Speaker 3 that that is

Speaker 3 what the heart of it is. It isn't like, you said you love me six times, therefore check.
It's I can feel in my body safe and I feel safe in this relationship. And the safety comes from a deeper place

Speaker 3 than

Speaker 3 the checklist of behaviors comes from.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I think that's why so many people struggled so much during and now with the divide in politics in a single home.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's like when you realize that your vision of the truest, most beautiful world is completely different than your partner's vision of the truest, most beautiful world.

Speaker 2 That is certainly one of my love languages. It's like the only thing that

Speaker 2 causes what looks like a tectonic platelet shift when I have questions about the world. that that go against every because of the way I was conditioned.

Speaker 2 And I i ask questions and i'm trying to process and you're like what the ever is wrong with you yeah i get really freaked out it's like this complete misalignment that's really scary that's so true i think it's the same way it's a fear it's a fear you're like am

Speaker 3 because my

Speaker 3 my quantum fear

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 pervades all of my behaviors and all of my needs is am i alone yes am i alone to face this thing am Am I alone in carrying this? And so

Speaker 3 when that happens, when there is a misalignment or even a threat of misalignment of deep core beliefs, it's,

Speaker 3 I'm on my own with this.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 3 We are not together in this. We will not equally, you know, wave this flag.
I am alone. I am responsible.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 And I think that is part of my oversimplification of like, are you for me or against me?

Speaker 2 And so if if anything is the world seems so chaotic and I'm like, in this house, as for me and my family, we will be for this and against this, for this and against this.

Speaker 2 And so when anything questions that,

Speaker 2 it makes me have a sleeping with the enemy moment where like I open the top cabinet and all

Speaker 2 it feels like all the cans are out of in line. And I'm like, whoa.
It's happened twice in our marriage that it scares you.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, well, no, I need to, I need to understand where I'm coming from. And it's hard for you to actually hear

Speaker 2 anything else that I'm saying around it because you just open the cabinets and you're like, whoa,

Speaker 2 I'm being, something's very wrong here. Yeah.

Speaker 3 It's a visceral reaction.

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Speaker 2 I have another one.

Speaker 2 It's moment alignment. Okay.
It's. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 So I'm in my living room and my youngest says something that is like so ridiculous and adorable or I don't know, just a moment that reflects something I've been thinking about. And I know.

Speaker 2 that when I look over at Abby, she's going to be looking at me because she's paying such close attention to our family and to all the things we're working out with each kid.

Speaker 2 And she has such a connection to each of their insides and such a connection to my insides that inside of a moment, we are experiencing the same magic.

Speaker 2 When something incredible happens

Speaker 2 and I look and the person's not experiencing it, I think this gets back to like the, the, why aren't I not in the picture episode? Exactly right. Yep.
But I feel left alone.

Speaker 2 Like I feel like, oh my God, they're missing the most important thing of, in the world, and I am, I'm alone. I'm alone.
I'm alone.

Speaker 2 So I wonder if that's your quantum fear, like sister just called it. Yeah.
I mean, am I alone is probably, you know, attachment theory just every, everything's just about, are you there with me?

Speaker 2 Am I real? Am I alone? Am I real? Are you there with me? Is all of these,

Speaker 2 all of our fears. And I think one of the things to talk about too, which I've been thinking about this whole episode and haven't said, is these all apply to friends too.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's not just romantic relationships that a lot of this applies to. When I think about the new friends I'm making, a lot of these apply

Speaker 2 to.

Speaker 2 And another one for me is conflict care. Tell me more.

Speaker 2 Not being afraid of conflict and having skill around conflict, because conflict for me is a way that I like work out things and grow and think and learn. And

Speaker 2 I need people who are not afraid to say the thing, who don't just avoid it,

Speaker 2 who tell me the truth about how they feel so we can work it out, who,

Speaker 2 when I, when I say the thing, know that that's an act of love for me and not an act of hateness.

Speaker 2 And I like people who understand conflict for conflict's sake. Like, don't just think that the goal of every conflict is to end it and hug and kiss.

Speaker 2 I don't know how to explain that, but like every once in a while, we'll be in the middle of a conflict. That's like good stuff.
We're getting at something.

Speaker 2 And you'll be like, okay, let's just remember we love each other, we're in this together. And I'm like, no, okay, yes, for sure.
That goes without saying.

Speaker 2 But, like, sometimes the goal is to really work something out.

Speaker 3 Gee, if I had to say, is that your

Speaker 3 attachment to conflict has to do with

Speaker 3 proving again and again to yourself

Speaker 3 that this relationship and connection and mutual understanding can survive the throes

Speaker 2 of any

Speaker 3 interrogation of a conflict.

Speaker 3 So, Abby's effort to say,

Speaker 3 okay, we're good. Let's love each other and hug, is to your eyes, a retreat from

Speaker 3 continuing through the gauntlet of the conflict, which you need

Speaker 3 as

Speaker 3 a point of

Speaker 3 demonstrating

Speaker 3 the strength and also

Speaker 3 even closer bond you'll have once you've run that gauntlet.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 And evolution.

Speaker 2 Like

Speaker 2 evolution. Like the idea of a relationship not being just to be smushy lovey govey govey like lovey dovey.
That's not it. That's not it for me.
Like it's not just that.

Speaker 2 It's also to have a partner in life that's helping you evolve to bigger and better and truer ideas and identities and ways of being.

Speaker 2 It's definitely one of my love languages to know that like, yes, a relationship, it's a port in a storm,

Speaker 2 but it's also the partner you walk through the storm with. Everything's not just a retreat into a comfort.
It's a comfort and a challenge. The like

Speaker 2 enthusiasm for evolving.

Speaker 2 I could never, ever be with somebody who didn't want that, who didn't love that, who didn't like have a commitment to learning and challenging and having spiritual adventures, which are internal.

Speaker 2 It's like inner scuba diving, you know, doing the treasure hunt that's internal and being okay with the discomfort of that.

Speaker 3 And I think the comfort and the challenge is a great way to

Speaker 3 pull together all of this on the love languages, because truly

Speaker 3 we're not

Speaker 3 here to bash the love languages. We're here to say the blessing and the curse of as

Speaker 3 you know, commonly understood of Chapman's five love languages is its simplicity.

Speaker 3 So it is a great way

Speaker 3 to

Speaker 3 begin to have

Speaker 3 shared language into a highly complex situation. But the catch 22

Speaker 3 of his formulation is that it's too simple.

Speaker 3 And so it, the good thing, it gives you access through simplicity, but the bad thing is if it's followed too far,

Speaker 3 it is so reductive

Speaker 3 of human potential and complexity and the

Speaker 3 vast mystery of love

Speaker 3 that it reduces the beauty and complexity of the possibilities of your love. And so

Speaker 3 It's it's take that idea and know that that love language is going to be as intricate and interesting and ever changing

Speaker 3 and ever changing as any partner is.

Speaker 3 Not one size fits all. Like dive in and figure it out and also dive into yourself and figure it out for yourself of how

Speaker 3 you receive and then have that conversation with your partner because it does not, we repeat, does not have to be these five.

Speaker 2 No, and you don't need the book. Just dive into a conversation about how you receive love and what fear or how you need love and what fear is beneath.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And this is why everybody loves the Indigo Girl song, Closer to Fine. It's like whenever anybody's like, I went to the doctor, I went to the preacher, I went to college.

Speaker 2 Every time we go somewhere to try to get all the answers,

Speaker 2 it feels good for a second because of that tempting, oh my God, I'm about to nail it, I'm about to simplify it, and it's always wrong.

Speaker 2 And love is too big and too wild to stuff into any dogma or five anything.

Speaker 3 Love it.

Speaker 2 Love it.

Speaker 3 Should we end by hearing from our last crew of love languages?

Speaker 4 This is Courtney. My love language is memes and reels.
Send me a meme or a reel. My name is Heather.
My love language is to bring me snacks, especially snacks in bed.

Speaker 4 My name is Shan. My love language is sending cards to people in the mail.
I send thinking of you cards, I love you cards, how are you doing cards, birthday cards. I just send a lot of mail to people.

Speaker 4 This also is someone named Abby calling in re-love languages. My love language is please leave me alone, but also

Speaker 4 do everything for me, even without me asking. And most importantly, read my mind.

Speaker 4 My name is Sam. I have a love language thing to share that I think might be unusual, but it is very much a love language between my husband and I.

Speaker 4 We are both fly anglers, and I guide, and he does some guiding, but we're very active in the fly fishing world. And he ties a lot of flies.

Speaker 4 He ties the most beautiful, perfect fly, and he hands it to me and says, this one is for you to use for your box.

Speaker 4 And he hands it to me and it is the most perfect thing. It feels like a love letter.

Speaker 4 And I just melt. My name is Chloe.
Interestingly enough, my love language is directly linked to bedtime and sleep time.

Speaker 4 My need for a partner and my want for a partner to be like close in proximity to me, either tucking me in, cuddling me, lying by me, speaking to me, but specifically as I prepare to sleep.

Speaker 4 And I wonder if that's something that other people share as well. Maybe it's because sleep is like a vulnerable state, but that has always been the case for me.

Speaker 2 I love that. That's a good one to end on.
Sleep is a vulnerable state, and so is life.

Speaker 3 And so is life. And so is love.

Speaker 2 And we just need somebody to be

Speaker 2 tucking us in we got through

Speaker 2 in this conversation yeah we got into an argument at the beginning yeah maybe poked a little bear and at the end there yeah got some things to talk about yeah don't we always are you still just you're absolutely furious with each other totally were you okay all right no one i mean i hope we'll be back next week folks but who knows i think that we're getting to the place in our marriage where if something reaches like a level of needing to discuss what we do i don't know about you.

Speaker 2 We're like letting go of a lot of stuff. Yeah, I feel totally let go.
Do you know?

Speaker 2 Okay. Oh, you don't.
We love you, Pod Squad.

Speaker 2 Carry on.

Speaker 2 We love you. See you next time.
Bye. Bye.

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