133. Indigo Girls: Sexuality, Sobriety, Faith & Freedom

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Okay, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

We're just gonna just begin because Abby and I just got in a huge fight.

Abby.

Wait, are you serious?

Yeah.

No, we didn't get into a huge fight, but she's been a little bit on edge this morning.

She literally shished me a little bit ago because I came back from workout and oftentimes my volume is a little higher.

Anyway, and so just recently, as we sat down, I said, are you upset with me?

And she said, no.

What did you say?

I said, no, I'm not upset with you.

I'm freaking the fuck out.

I'm having a nervous breakdown because we're about to interview Amy and Emily and I can't stop thinking about it.

I have dressed up as if I'm going to a ball.

Like

I haven't dressed up for two years.

Like, what is wrong with me?

I said, we have to just start this.

We have to start it because I'm, so I don't run away.

Okay.

Why are you nervous?

Yeah.

Oh, well, that's a good place to start.

I don't know.

I'm nervous because

if there

are two people in the entire world who have meant more to me artistically,

there aren't any more people who aren't me.

See, I'm doing great.

I'm crushing it and completing sentences.

So when I was getting sober,

I was 25 and I had just decided that my feelings were too much to feel.

So I just numbed myself out forever.

And then I found out I was pregnant.

So I had to figure out how to human.

And I still thought I couldn't feel my feelings or I would die.

So I was freshly sober.

And when I got sober, I was almost dead.

I was like in a very bad place.

And

I used to practice being human.

I would start one of your songs.

I would allow myself like the four minutes of one Indigo Girl song.

And I would lay on my bed and allow myself to feel feelings for those four minutes.

And for the first month, two months of sobriety, that's, I would say, you don't have to feel any other time, just those four minutes.

And do you think that I have spent a single day of our lives, like since I got sober for 20 years without listening to you all?

Not one.

Every day of my life.

Wow.

You both are the background in our life and our children's life.

So do you think we should tell the people who we're talking to and about?

Yes.

Today we are talking to and having a double date with the most important duo of Abby and I's lives.

Yep.

Emily Saylors and Amy Rae, the Indigo Girls.

who together make the most important music of our lifetime.

One of the most successful folk duos in history, Amy Ray and Emily Saylor's, aka The Indigo Girls, has recorded 16 albums and sold over 15 million records.

That sounds impressive, but I bought 14 million of that.

Committed and uncompromising activists.

They work on issues like immigration reform, LGBTQ advocacy, education, and death penalty reform.

They are co-founders of Honor the Earth, a nonprofit dedicated to the survival of sustainable Native communities, Indigenous environmental justice, and green energy solutions.

Their latest record, Look Long Love, is a stirring and eclectic collection of songs that finds the Indigo Girls reunited in the studio with their strongest backing band to date.

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Amy and Emily, thank you for saving our lives and being here today.

Oh, man, it's an honor.

It really is for us.

Yeah, totally such an honor.

And wow, what a story.

Yeah.

I was going to say, Glennon, like,

if you were trying to have an introductory course into feeling feelings, I would have picked like Barry Manilow instead of the Indigo girls because we're like so intense, you know, and emotional.

And

Barry Manelow is so intense.

Well, I mean.

It just would have been like a

gentler introduction into real feelings.

That's curious to me.

Because I feel like at that time, I had never heard

uh music that honored the complication of being a woman

like

you were really honoring the complication of life

listening to light stuff or reading light stuff makes me feel worse because i feel like oh i guess everyone else is fine and not swirly

right and i think what probably was bringing you into the depths of your addiction was this

cover or the costumes that you had to keep putting on and glennon talks a lot about going to her first meeting and finally listening to people telling the truth for the first time.

And I bet, because they speak so much truth in their music.

And I bet that that was such an attraction to you.

Well, and then when I told Craig that I was in love with a woman, the first words he said to me, I was married.

The first words he said to me was,

is this what all the indigo girls have been about?

Oh my God.

is that a compliment or a snow i don't know

but it was right i was like i think it is holy

all those husbands all those husbands and boyfriends yeah poor guys poor guys so how did you find music in each other we knew each other when we were young like 10 11

a year apart in elementary school.

But I think the way we really found music in each other is high school chorus, right, Emily?

Yeah.

And then we decided that we would get together.

We became became friends with like a group of friends that were like cross grades and all had the commonality of chorus.

And we were going to do like a talent show.

We got together in my mom's basement and we started learning cover songs.

And I, for me,

that harmony was,

you know, kind of blew my mind.

And I didn't know how to sing harmony yet.

I was in the choir at church, but I just would just do exactly what my choir director told me.

I didn't understand, like, how do you write the part, you know?

Um, so Emily was already doing that, and

her family was already singing in harmony with each other.

I found it in the harmony, like in the ability, like in Emily's keen sense of harmony and then just the naturalness of how it just comes out.

I was like, oh, wow, that's the magic of music

of this thing.

Which was, you know, for a high schooler,

16, 15 years old, it was intense.

Wow.

This is a completely random question, but you know how when you're in elementary school or high school, you always feel like people that are the year older than you are cooler your whole life?

Like, if I meet somebody right now, I'm 46, and they were a senior when I was a sophomore, so they're 48.

I automatically think they're cooler.

So, like, do you still think Emily's cooler than you?

Because she's older than you.

Oh, God, don't ask her that question.

I do.

I think she, like, I think you always have the

dynamic that you set when you're young together.

So Emily's always like a year older,

better at this, better at that, all that stuff.

Bigger hit songs, whatever.

We have to promise to be like completely transparent in this interview because I am such a dork and Amy

is so cool, you know, like, so that's like.

Wow.

But there is that.

There is the tier system in school where you just like, if you even get to hang out at the lunchroom with someone in an older,

you're flying, you're high, you know, because it's like, look at me with an older kid in the upper grade.

Yeah.

But we,

we're pretty close in age, though.

Like Amy almost catches up to me, but not quite.

And then I've always had a respect for her wisdom and her vision for things, how to make things happen.

And

also,

if you see me crying, and I may cry emotionally, but I just tried false false eyelashes.

No, you did not.

Yes, I did.

Look at my eyeball.

Okay.

What in this world is?

This makes me feel good for some reason.

This is the best thing.

Emily, tell us the story right now.

Okay.

It's a pace she's in.

She's doing false lashes and fractal guitar effects.

And my eye is.

Yeah, it's true.

And we'll get to the fractal later.

It's like a new level for indigo girls.

Did you do this yourself?

Did you go?

Did you?

No, I went.

went, I'm going to tell you, I went to a professional and who advised me where to go was none other than Carrie, Amy's life partner.

Oh.

And actually, she's really great, but you know, I'm a redhead and I'm compromised and I'm sensitive.

And I don't know.

I don't know what happened, but

so I have blonde eyelashes, you know, right.

And I like to wear a mascara.

This is so, should we talk a bit about this?

I think it's the best thing.

It's just the best thing that's ever happened.

It's so dimensional.

Yeah.

Okay.

So, yeah, this is me dimensional.

Uh-huh.

She's always been the femme.

All things being relative, that's probably true.

But

yeah, so I like to wear a mascara.

I don't like my eyelashes to be invisible, but putting on mascaras a drag.

Yep.

And then I started to watch, I watch a lot of women's college basketball.

And I started to notice that all those young women

are wearing false eyelashes.

Yes.

Like, but those gals can carry them like an inch long.

Yeah.

So I was like, right.

I was like, I can't do that.

But that's cool.

That looks good to me.

So I went and Carrie gave me this recommendation.

And at first, I got the mascara look,

which is very natural you know, they have to place single eyelashes on each lash.

I know this one.

Well, Emily, I've lived this life.

I have lived this life.

We'll talk about you later, though.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I looked at it.

So anyway, this next time I was like, I said to her, let's just up the game a little.

What can you offer that's not like the basketball players, but that's a little bit fuller?

And now I...

My eye is killing me and I just cry all the time out of my left eye.

I'm just going to send you an email after this with all the answers to this.

Okay, okay, good.

So you two were born a year before we even had the word transgender, five years before the Stonewall riots, 10 years before any out-queer person ever held political office.

You came of age during the HIV-AIDS epidemic, which they were then calling the gay plague.

The world you came out in is so different than the world that I came out in.

And that difference was created in part by you, which is so wild.

How are people who came out when you did different than people who come out now?

Like, what is the difference that you feel and see?

That's a good question.

There's some things that are similar.

I'll say like kids that are in certain areas of the country or live in certain families or go to certain churches really still have the roughest time ever.

So that's a similarity.

But the difference would be, I feel like access to language,

for one thing, we didn't know what the the word gay meant, really, when we were kids.

We were like, is that bestiality?

Like, what, you know, because we were in suburban south.

Now, when you come out, you understand that there's sexuality and there's gender and that's different.

And you understand,

you have the grasp of all these things about gender dysphoria, gender fluidity.

bisexuality, trans issues are in the forefront, which they should be.

And so for me, I think for the most important difference, the thing that helped me the most when I got older was all of a sudden having all this language to talk about where I was at.

You know, and I also think you can reach out through the

internet and find some mentors.

I mean, when you're suffering, you don't have anybody to turn to, you know, where you live.

Yeah.

You don't have any role models.

There's so many role models and there's so much information.

Emily's probably got some.

I agree with everything you've said.

And because through the internet or through community groups that can focus on queer community,

it's, I think maybe

people who are coming out don't have to deal so much with the self-hatred and self-homophobia.

that I'll speak for my own self that I still deal with, you know, because I think the more you have a community out there, especially if you have access, and I'm not talking about kids in a rural or any, you know, super evangelical Christian or any kind of household that makes it as difficult as it ever was.

But for kids who have, like where I live, it's pretty progressive and there's, you know, queer alliances and even kids who are,

you know, lean more towards heteronormative are belong to these groups.

And so there's more of a sense of I have a place where I can be.

When I was coming up, all I heard was, you're different.

you'll never be validated.

What are we going to do with this ban when we got signed?

We can't, like, you know, sell their sexuality as women and all these things.

And,

you know, I still am unraveling that.

So I think that's a difference too.

Like, some of the young people I know who come out are just, they're so overjoyed and happy, and they didn't have to fight this dark internal battle.

I have that with Glennon.

I have like a lot of internalized homophobia that still lives in me today.

And Glennon grew up with straight privilege and has always been fighting for

gay rights for the longest time.

She was marching at gay pride parades before I was.

And I just think that that's so interesting.

Like I look at her and sometimes I think.

Not fuck you, because I would never say that, but like, really?

Like, you just got here and you feel free.

And I've been, I've been keeping myself in this homophobic cage for so long.

I don't know.

I just think it's really interesting.

And, you know, you, you both have said that you were a little scared of your own gayness, which is different than being scared of homophobia.

Yes.

What does it mean to be scared of your own gayness?

Well, it's internalized homophobia.

It means you're...

scared of what you really are.

And sometimes you don't want to face it.

And I think when you're young, you don't really know what it means

and how to talk about it and all that.

But I would say, I would say,

Abby, that we may have that self-hate thing.

But Lennon, one of the things about you is that you went through this very compacted experience of like

falling in love, you know, getting sober, falling in love and having to really fight for what you really wanted to be.

And I often think that people who have those intense fights feel a sort of freedom, that you don't feel the same way when you have this graduated experience like we've had

over the years of like

trying to unravel everything,

knowing we were gay, not, and it not being this compacted experience when all of a sudden you have this relief of like, oh my God, I'm finally free.

I didn't realize I'm celebrating who I am, you know?

And for us, it's kind of like we were just not able to celebrate for so long,

you know, that we got conditioned to that.

Like that's just,

we were taught that you don't celebrate it for, I mean, year.

I mean, just

even if our parents didn't teach us that, like Emily's parents didn't teach her that she shouldn't celebrate that, you know, they were progressive.

And my parents were.

not happy with it at first, but they're awesome.

They were awesome later in my life.

But like, you just get the sense from something you're just conditioned.

You know, everybody knows that society is like,

you know, trying to tamp you down all the time, no matter what you are.

It's interesting that what you said,

Abby, about, you know, talking to Glennon about this and straight privilege.

I have a crystallized fear deep in me because my wife does not identify as a lesbian.

And she never had a girlfriend.

And it's terrifying to me that she would go back to a man, even though we're married and committed and everything, you know, but those fears are so primal.

And that fear comes from not feeling good enough as a gay person,

you know, and she respects the fact that she's had straight privilege, but she will, you know, she identifies as queer, but not lesbian.

And so, you know, she would love whomever she loved.

And it's, I can't get out of that fear yet.

You know, I don't have much time left.

I feel like sometimes to get, get out of that fear.

That's how deep they are you know you could take them to your grave what do you think do you feel that way about me not

no because i know how you feel about men in general yeah she knows for sure i'm not going back to a man i might be alone for the rest of my life but i think that you have been in a cage for so many

seconds of your life

that

It doesn't matter to me.

I know that we are

going to be together forever.

And of course, I just, I have that fear in general because of my own unworthiness complex that I've built over the course of my life.

But I do think

that there, for you, you need to have the freedom to not put yourself into another box.

Right, because then I'd have to get out of it if sometime, like, it feels like painting myself into a corner.

Well, it's the same with gender, too.

Like, you're

very gender either.

It's very confusing.

Yeah.

But my thought experiment, you all, is like when we try to figure out like, well, what are you?

We still have these conversations.

It's like, okay, if I had to be on the bachelorette

and they were like, you got to pick your people that are going to be here.

Sorry.

Like, you got to pick your people.

I would choose, say, okay, women can be there and non-binary people can be there.

That's who I would choose.

So that is something, right?

That is something.

i mean we were watching um hacks a couple of weeks ago and this non-binary person came on the screen and she said

that is a beautiful person and i looked at her and it was like it was the first time that i was like wait a second that's my lane

you're not allowed to talk about other people who are my lane like what the

she looked at me and she's she's like she saw my like sincere concern she's like what oh no i don't no no i you know and was trying to back out of it.

Yeah.

But

what are you, wow, wow, wow.

Yeah.

Still figuring it out.

Still figuring it out.

Because I do.

Glennon,

has any of it, do you, can you trace back in your life and see where this might have been blossoming in you early on?

Or do you feel like

because of your negative experiences with men, that sort of shaped your vision towards loving women in a deeper way?

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So a couple things.

This is a complicated conversation.

All right.

Sometimes when I get on

the interwebs and start talking about like fluidity and choice and whatever, usually someone calls, like Brandy calls me and says, slow down.

You're not allowed to talk like that.

Well, actually, in reality, she just called and said, let's talk this through.

Tell me what you're thinking and I'll tell you what I think.

And her points were very well, you know, she, there are people in the, in, in churches and in places where when you start talking about maybe I don't identify with born this way, maybe there is a fluidity and maybe there's choice involved, then the people who are sending their kids to conversion therapy use that as an excuse.

Like, it's like the people from the Bible Belt need the excuse that God made you this way in order to allow their children to be who they are.

So, I get all of that.

But,

yeah, but you, that's,

there's anything and everything that can be used in bad ways.

Like, don't worry about that.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, here's- You just got to speak your truth to power.

I've never told anyone this before, including Abby, but since Amy and Emily are here, I'm going to tell you.

This is exciting.

So I'm sweating again.

So I

remember being very, very young, like 12, 13, maybe younger, and finding Playboys

and being like.

Wow.

Okay.

I know.

I'm so happy.

Okay.

Well, I don't know what it means.

Well, wait, what do you mean by wow?

Just being like,

I understand

why people like this magazine.

This is very

interesting and beautiful.

I wonder, because this might have been

around the time that you started to delve into bulimia.

Yeah, I mean, so then I shut down all of my sexuality and body and almost killed myself and married a bunch of men.

And then,

but yeah, it's interesting, right?

You just married one man.

Yeah, it felt like so many.

Oh, wait, are you cats?

A bunch of men.

I was, yes, I was.

Okay, so you can't discount the influence of the church.

Yeah.

You know, the greatest woman that ever lived was a virgin.

And then you carry on from there.

I was named after her.

Yeah.

Did you know that the original meaning of the word virgin had nothing to do with sex?

And the original meaning was to belong to oneself.

Ooh.

So that changes.

I didn't know that.

So that changes that.

I love that.

Yeah.

But is these

the influence, the power

of these systemic like structures that affect us, the church, social norms, binary thinking,

fear about,

you know, fluidity in so many ways.

You take a step back and look at the power of those forces on us.

It's very, very, very, that's why we need community because together,

you know, together we can navigate that, tackle that, and affirm

our validity as human beings, our dignity.

So that's why we need community.

I loved church.

When I was three, I knew all of the church songs.

I stood on the pews with my hands on the back of the pew in front of me.

I was loud.

I was into it.

And then over time, as soon as I started to like feel my sexuality coming to the surface, I fucking hated myself.

You know, like I felt that shame and I, and I embodied it in my cells and like the molecular makeup of who I am, you know, and then I get to be 16 years old.

And I, this is actually the first time I ever acknowledged outwardly.

not with words, but with action to my mom.

We were in a store and y'all's CD was at the checkout line.

And I picked up your CD and my sister Laura, who's a little bit older than me, she's 10 years older than me and she's gay.

I came out first, but she listened to you all.

And I grabbed the CD and I said to my mom, can I buy this?

Can you buy this for me?

And she said, yeah.

And that was like.

That was like one of the most important moments of my life.

It was like me taking ownership of myself.

So you were trying to tell her something.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, I didn't come out to her for like six years after that, but still, it was, it was like one of the most important moments of my life.

And y'all were a big part of it.

Do you all think there's room for the conversation of choice and fluidity?

Do you feel like there are forces in the world?

Adrian Rich used to say, I'm a lesbian for political reasons.

Or, you know, the second wave of feminism, what they said, they used to say that,

oh, God, liberation is the goal and lesbianism is the way, or something.

Like

that, there have been times where being a lesbian by choice, not in a way that it was like, I would be different if I could, but I was born this way.

Cause there's some sort of apologetic, like

vibe.

It's not like I would be different, but I'm getting like, no, this is the best life.

This is the best choice.

This is on purpose, kind of.

Do you

feel that that's dangerous to the conversation?

Or do you

believe that?

I guess it's the but you know, in the context of the second wave, it was a political statement like separatism was, you know, like

we need a safe space.

Men are doing a lot of harm, and politically, we need to be liberated from that power in order to be ourselves, actualize who we really are.

And I think lesbianism was used as a term

equated with separatism, right?

So, I think it's like totally like maybe a different context than like

now.

I don't know what the science is, but I know that

I feel like you

can be born in many different ways on the spectrum of who you're attracted to, right?

So, if you're born kind of in the middle,

your nurturing can might push you one way or the other, maybe, or you can be taught that it's not cool to be in the middle and that's a sin sin too

or your gender can be forced on you when you don't feel that gender there's like so many circumstances

i guess i feel like things are more fluid than we know

you know but

but i think the political movements are like second wave i think they were making a point you know

which is so different from now yeah i think it's still relevant don't you think emily i don't know yeah I mean, I think, you know, there was a time when identity politics became very, very important, you know, as a way to separate from the powers that be.

And I also think that,

and this is just my opinion, but in order to enter a sexual relationship, it's not really a choice.

Like you, if somebody of the same sex makes you feel good, or anybody makes you feel good, or you have a connection through your body, you don't really go, okay, now I'm going to like this you know i think the choice is more if you decide to enter into a committed relationship or

can anybody elaborate on i know because being open to it at all like because you the choice is to shut down you could shut it down i shut it down for a long time so the choice is to shut it down or not that makes sense but i also think it's a weird sort of thought process but i think like when you come up with Like I came up with feeling at some point the bubble was burst and I was like feeling self-hatred about having being so masculine, right?

Completely separate from who I was attracted to, right?

And I became unfree because I was like, oh, now I hate myself.

Great.

You know, just physically hate my body, right?

It has nothing to do with who I want to go out with.

And then I became attracted to women, but the self-hate.

You know, I could be, it's a weird, I don't even know how you unwind it, you know, in our generation, but we had so much self-loathing that when you

found this safety with a woman and you found this love and you're in love and you're sexually attracted too.

But also for me, I was attracted to men as well, but I felt completely unworthy of that.

You see what I'm saying?

Like the self-hate of my body and the self-hate of me not being a good enough woman

and but wanting also to kind of be a guy, that kind of fluidity did not go hand in hand with having a boyfriend right

so i so i think there's some unraveling to be to be done for the total freedom that you might want to feel like you can be completely attracted to the opposite sex you can be attracted to the same sex you can be attracted to people that are gender queer

whatever you want There should be nothing limiting you that has to do with you not liking yourself and thinking that you're unworthy.

That's right.

And for our generation,

it's so different from the young generation now.

Like my nephew's bisexual.

He's just like, I love who I love.

You know what I'm saying?

And he's a six foot, you know,

like big guy, you know, like actor, big guy, Renfair, stage fighting.

And he's just like, men are beautiful.

You know, and I'm like, oh my God, I love you.

Like you, that's what I wanted to be.

And I had a boyfriend for a while who,

who I really loved after I had a girlfriend, but I didn't want to marry him.

So I had to just tell him that.

And I loved him so much, but I knew that it was not where I wanted to be, right?

With him

and everything.

But I felt so, I just didn't feel like I was also worthy, you know, even though he didn't, he was like, I love the way you are.

You know, I love lesbians, whatever, you know, whatever he meant.

I love masculine women is what he meant, right?

Yeah.

And I didn't love masculine women.

Right.

Wow.

But then I have friends where the couple is like a masculine woman and a femini guy, right?

A femi guy.

And some of my friends will be like, oh, they should just be gay.

And I'm like, no, they're, they actually like, can't you open your mind?

Yeah.

Like they're in love with each other.

It's not, they're not covering up being gay.

Right.

They actually love, this is who they want to be with.

And I think we, even, even us as gay people get stuck in that place of like, well, if you're this way and that way, you must just be in the closet, you know?

And it's like, no, actually, there's feminine straight men, you know, and masculine and straight women.

Yes,

I remember when Ani

came out as bisexual or whatever she would term it now, and like the lesbian community just lost their shit because it's like

that we only have so many of us and we've lost one of our own.

You know, I remember that, you know, I didn't feel that way, of course, but I understand that that fear.

And so identity, I don't, we're so wrapped up in identity.

And I think it's probably a primal thing, like knowing your place in the tribe.

And are you going to go out and pick the berries?

Or are you going to like draw on the cave wall?

Or what, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

You have to be able to recognize your place in your tribe or else you're, you're fucked.

So I think a lot of this like

focus on It's not all because the more I say this and think about it as I say it, but there is a lot to do with where do I belong in a tribe.

And it's very, very compromising and fear-inducing to think that you either you don't belong or you've lost someone who you thought belonged, you know, goes way, way back in that part of your brain.

And my goodness, Amy, what you just said, I'm more masculine.

I have more masculine tendencies.

And so, of course, no straight man who would want to be with woman would ever want me.

So it felt like this is

the way you articulated that was like the most most true thing that I have heard about my own gender and sexuality and how they are in relationship to each other.

That it's like, well, I can't be that.

Nobody will want me over here.

So of course then I'll just, I have to be gay.

Interesting.

And it's not, yeah, but to say, and it's like when we say that, people say, oh,

you're just, you know, that's dangerous to say that because.

Then it's like saying you really want to be straight.

And if you just felt better about yourself, you could, but that's not not the point.

No, it's not the point.

It's like, I want to be everything if I want to be everything.

You know, like I have had sex with dudes and it wasn't like the worst experience of my life.

We think that I'm gayer than she is because I was like, well, actually, it was the worst experience of my life.

Every time I tried.

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So, Amy, do you identify as a woman?

Because you've said in the past you're half and half, which by the way, just makes sense to me.

I don't identify as a, I mean, my pronoun is she, but

I don't.

But that's just because I fought so hard to honor the woman inside me.

I identify as a masculine female probably is the closest thing to it, but I really, but when I see my inner self, it's very much a guy, you know, like I know, but I've,

but I know society has influenced that for so long as I was coming up that I

have this benefit of the doubt that I give to the fact that I probably have misogyny drilled into me at an early age, right?

And so I'm

just trying to welcome that feminine, right?

And just be identify as a she.

But I can theoretically see the idea of like transitioning to a guy and what that would mean, but it doesn't work for me for some reason.

I've thought about it.

It doesn't work for me.

And I think it's because I could not really feel completely a guy either.

And so I don't want to go through all that just to get on the other side of it and be like, wow, shit, I don't really feel like a guy either.

That's right.

Here's another costume.

I mean,

I just think it's all so mixed up inside me that I have to just be like, no, no, this is just who I am.

Like, this is what you get.

Yeah.

And I got to just learn to love that.

Yeah.

You know,

and I have friends that have transitioned and they're so completely who they are, you know, that I'm like, yes, that's, that's like the prime example of like what what when it works, you know, and when you become the true being reflected on the outside that you feel in the inside, right?

Yeah.

And it's amazing to see that and it's joyful and I celebrate it, but I don't think I could get there.

Do you love or hate the fluidity of that for you?

Well, theoretically, I love it, but

the

12-year-old in me hates it, you know, or the 14-year-old, I guess.

And Chris, we all want to belong somewhere.

That's why people want.

to know your identity who do you belong to

but then who do you belong to automatically creates an enemy it's It's like if you're in something, the only reason to be in something is to know who's not in that something.

Right.

Well, you can look at it differently, though, because true tribal thought from an Indigenous perspective doesn't have to be that, you know?

Like we, I think that's a white perspective of what tribal is, honestly.

And I think you just have to look at tribe as this is my community of people that work together to create something and help each other.

And there are other communities over here that do the same thing.

And sometimes we get together and have a party and try to achieve something even bigger.

It's just functional.

Like you have to have these tribes that are, you know, situated in some way that's convenient to really help each other out and really be there for each other and build something and create your life and have a journey.

And then these other tribes are just as worthy and it's not us and them.

That's so beautiful.

You're so right.

That's just all whiteness.

That's good.

So, Emily, you're sober, right?

Yes, sober.

god yeah

tell us about how you got sober did you have a rock bottom like what was that decision and process for you like

well i have alcoholism on both sides of my family both sets of grandparents i mean my grandmother on my dad's side died when he was five so i don't know but all the other grandparents were alcoholics and so i was sort of aware of that like my parents were very moderate with alcohol um growing up there was no like alcohol is evil and you should never have it or anything like that.

So

I always had that in the back of my mind, but that was destined to be alcoholic and I didn't know it.

And but like when we played bars and stuff and we did shots from the stage, this is like when we were, I don't know, babies.

And drinking was such a social part of what we did for work, you know, and then I had a very social life.

I thought I was an extrovert.

I was really just an alcoholic.

I was not an extrovert.

I said that might be me, too.

Oh my God.

I was just like, I thought I was so funny and so charming and so attractive, but I was just drunk.

You know, I did have a rock bottom.

And the truth is that Amy, she, she knew I was alcoholic and she came to me, I think, at least two times and maybe three.

And I, this is funny, but I always liken it to the way Peter denied Jesus like three times.

It's like, when I look back on it, it's very deep that I lied to Amy.

Those, I don't have a problem.

I really, I mean, I love to drink, but I, it's classic.

I was a liar.

All alcoholics are liars.

Yes.

And then my body broke down.

And

I would say that I was pretty close to death very shortly.

Both my mother.

and my little sister who had addiction and eating disorder.

She died when she was 29 or 30, and they were both dead.

And towards the end of my drinking, I started dreaming about them every night.

And they were like, you know, come, come on.

And I got to the point where I was like, oh, I might die.

Okay, that's cool, you know, or that's fine, whatever.

And

so.

Amy can attest to how terrible it was when I was drinking, all the excuses I made, my irresponsibility, not showing up.

But I was terrified.

I think all alcoholics are terrified to admit that they're alcoholics.

Like, I had a friend who went into the program way, way before I did.

And she gave me my first blue book.

And she was like, and I don't really want to talk about the program because that's, you know,

anyway, she gave me that book and it was like on fire.

I wouldn't touch it.

It sat there on a little altar.

And it was.

And then, and I was like, oh, well, I'm not like that.

It's classic.

And then I started reading the stories because I just could not.

It's like going to see personal best.

You can't stay away from it.

You know,

got to read the stories eventually.

And then I was like, yeah, I can't relate to that.

But then at the end, like everybody knew I was just fucked up and dying.

And Amy was going to quit the band.

And,

you know, everything was falling apart for me.

And I tried to hide it so much.

And you just can't.

And then in the end, there was an intervention.

And actually,

Amy wasn't at that intervention

because

I think that

my wife knew that I wouldn't be able to be honest.

I was so vulnerable to Amy and to my best friend who was not at the intervention.

And I know that that, I believe that that hurt you, Amy, because you had a lot to testify to and to

and

but I don't think in that moment I had the courage, strength.

I was so bitterly rageful and angry.

And, but I had an intervention in there.

I thought I was going to get on a plane and go to some shows.

We had shows booked.

I had my bags packed.

All of a sudden, there's a knock on the door.

It's my dad, and my sister, and our manager, and the

leader, and a friend of mine who I was trying to get sober with,

who was just

an incredible like sobriety angel to me and then

I was like okay well okay well this is great but I got to get on a plane and they're like no there's no plane you're gonna go to this hospital and they're gonna check out your body to make sure you're okay and then you're gonna go to rehab but prior to this I knew I was alcoholic I was I would go over to like my sister's house and go I'm an alcoholic so I have to drink okay and then I would like make them pour me a bourbon I have to drink.

I'm an alcoholic, but that was my way of like slowly admitting.

And then this intervention happened.

And

then I, because prior to that, I had called this rehab center and I had talked to this guy.

He was like a brother in the

Catholic community.

And I was always drunk when I called him.

Like, okay, yeah, what's it like?

And what do you do?

And I'm sure he dealt with people like me all the time.

And I decided I would go outpatient for 30 days.

That's what I would do.

But then the intervention happened.

They take me off to the hospital.

I'm okay.

I don't have any other addictions.

And

then I'm off to rehab and I stayed there for three months and I couldn't have gotten sober without it.

I tried, but I had such privilege and such access and such

false pride and shame.

I didn't know the shame I had until I got sober and I couldn't bear to tell anybody that I was an alcoholic.

Yeah.

So the change that happens between finally admitting it and getting help, because I truly believe I couldn't have gotten sober without rehab.

And now the fact that I can talk about it openly is just, it's kind of miraculous to me.

And then Amy and I went to therapy after that.

Oh, together.

Amy could.

Yeah.

So they just worked through your anger

once or twice.

Once or twice.

How did I do that?

Well, I did.

Yeah, I think twice.

Twice.

So Amy, you can talk about that experience, but I can tell you that in sobriety, well, it's the hardest fucking thing I've ever done.

I shouldn't have pride about it, but I'm kind of proud I've stuck to something this long and done the work.

It's so hard sometimes.

You just want to, you just want to get out,

you know, quickly.

And you can't anymore.

And you have to sit through a lot of discomfort.

And the other thing I'm learning now is I lost a whole chunk of my development, intellectual development, my evolution as a human being.

I just deprived myself of that in that time that I was drinking so hard.

So now I'm, I feel a lot of catching up and I feel a lot of like unworthiness because I'm behind and things like that.

So that's now, but to be sober, to wake up feeling good, to know that you're not self-destructing, to know that you can be like, now I'm accountable to Amy, responsible to us and to all the people and to my family.

I never would have had my wife.

She would have left me.

She was going to, or my child, and all the most beautiful things in life have come from sobriety.

And Amy,

was it hard for you?

Because this is like

your best friend, your business.

What was it like going through that from your perspective?

I mean, it was super rough.

But, you know, I have to say to start out with, it is a huge achievement to get sober, I think.

And

huge.

Everyone that gets sober like that should be proud of it.

I know you're taught, you know,

humility and all that stuff.

But,

and I had stopped drinking when I was about 30.

And I didn't do a program or anything.

I mean, people that I went to Al-Anon with are always saying, you should have gone to AA.

But I stopped drinking because everybody I knew was dying and too drunk.

And Emily was drunk all the time.

And I just needed to differentiate, you know, and I had moved to the mountains and was drinking alone every night.

And

my best friend Tanner, she just, she said, well, we're both going to just stop drinking at the same time.

So we made this pact.

And, you know, and I think I just never.

I just, I have alcoholism in my family, but I don't think I have the, I mean, I'm addictive to some, in some degree, but it was just easier for me.

I understand the monumental task of getting sober that Emily was up against.

And I think it's a miracle, honestly, because I saw her before that.

And I, and I had that vision of like,

I'd rather die than not be able to drink is what, is what I heard from her over and over again, you know, in action, in word, in everything.

And so for me,

towards the end, it was just like chaos.

And,

you know,

I was afraid every morning that I'd wake up and hear that she had died in the middle of the night.

Like, you know, just

the tour bus was crazy because Emily would fall out of her bunk or, you know, things would happen that were just unmanageable and crazy.

And I went to Al-Anon, actually, to help me just stay in the band, you know, for a couple of years.

But I think the thing that was the hardest thing for me about all of this was that I would talk to my manager.

I would talk to Emily's friends.

No one believed me.

For years, no one believed me.

So I think that's the only thing that bothered me about the intervention because I was like, wait a minute, I'm the only one that has been talking about this.

And all of a sudden you guys have a wake-up call.

Like, we, this should have been done three years ago.

Like, what is, and everybody was fighting me on it.

Even our manager, who I was like, Russell, I swear to God, You're not out here, but you need to be.

This is, we, this, she is not going to survive this.

and you are enabling it by just letting us carry on and you're making money off of us like you need to stop

he was like in full denial right and i was like no one would listen to me right and so that was the hardest thing because i thought i was crazy and instead people be like ah you know you you don't drink so you don't understand you know you know we know you're not a partier so you just can't like deal with it and i'm like I'm not a partier because I can't deal with that.

There's a reason I'm not.

And someone's got to keep it in the control.

I mean, I really just was like,

when Emily gets sober, I'll start drinking again because then, you know, I don't need to be like in control of the situation anymore.

Because I think I felt like, wow, someone needs to be sober right now because it is like a mess.

You know, and I think our audience, you know, was never really aware of it.

But it's like

stuff was just going downhill and our music was, the shows weren't as good.

And

after the shows was always like a potential scene outside the tour bus you know and so i was just like oh my god no one understands what's going on but me it just felt like not even the people in our crew you know because everybody was just partying right yeah and so for me it just felt like uh i felt a little crazy you know and insane but i also knew

after learning you know going to aladon and stuff and doing my own work that i was like part of the problem too because i'm just i just kept being confrontational right instead of like letting emily find her own answers in her own way i was like judgmental judgmental judgmental all the time right which is kind of my def it's like my go-to anyway because like the way i was raised was by people who were judgmental some people um

So I contributed in so many ways to that shame and that constant thing because I would just be like, well, I'm going to be in the band anyway, but I'm going to be judgy all the time.

When what I should have just done is like walk away.

You know, I should have just walked away from it because it's like, it doesn't help to just make someone feel shame over and over again, you know?

And so

we were all in our own little system of like

bad stuff.

Family.

Yeah.

Family.

It was family.

And I didn't want to leave it, but at some point I had decided.

And I was like, I'm just going to, I can't do this anymore because it's just enabling this whole system is being enabled by me.

continuing to play in the band because it's just like, it means that everything can just feel normal all the time.

We're making a lot of money.

We're, you know, know, you can sleep all day and then sing your gig and then get drunk and then sleep all day and, you know, all that stuff.

And at the time, I also had like,

oh my God, I had just gotten through this terrible bout with endometriosis and I had, you know, weighed 20 pounds less and couldn't eat anything and had, and that, you know, that's endometriosis.

Stress is like a contributor to that, you know, I was losing organs, you know, so that'll do it.

You know, it was, it was a crazy time that feels crazier when both of us are just inside this time and we both know it's going crazy, but no one else on the outside does, right?

So we're just kind of in our own little world trying to like muscle through.

Everybody's making money off the indigo girls

and we are too, you know, and it's all, it all becomes like that absurd to me, you know, like that absurd.

Like we're not playing music for joy right now.

We're playing music because.

It's all we know how to do to survive, you know, in every way, spiritually, you know, your soul and all that stuff.

But I think that's just what we all do.

We all get in denial about different things and it had to happen the way it happened, I think, or it wouldn't have been such a great recovery.

That's right.

You know, because

now it's like,

you know, we fought and Emily fought really super hard.

People that I know that have gotten through it, I'm just blown away by their.

by their strength, you know, like people I know that were addicts and heroin addict or, you know, meth addicts or whatever.

And I see them recover and I'm just like, oh my God, that's so hard.

It's a miracle.

Like, how did you do that?

You know, I can't even stop eating chocolate.

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I want to hear about y'all's experience too, if you don't mind.

Oh, with sobriety?

Yeah, with alcohol and sobriety.

Yeah.

You know how you're constantly looking back on your life and like, I feel like everything's just an episode of like, I see dead people.

Like, somebody changes perspective.

I look back on my life and I'm like, wait,

I need to write another memoir.

So I don't know.

I feel like I was probably

suppressing sexuality.

That's what I

became bulimic when I was 10.

And that just morphed into alcoholism.

And

I got sober when I was 25.

And

it was a miracle too.

I mean, when I hear you guys talking, it reminds me of me and my sister, although Amy would be my sister and I would be Emily.

And it is, it was so bad that every day feels like a miracle now.

It's like,

it's like when a winter is so freaking dark and then spring comes and you're like, I feel grateful for it because it reminds me of what you were talking talking about before, Amy, when there's like a intense fight for something.

Like my intense fight for being free sexually and then feeling so empowered by it all the time.

That's how sobriety felt to me.

Because I fought so hard for mental health.

I walk around most days like, holy shit, I am vertical.

Everybody else, everybody else needs other things.

I know.

And it's so cool.

And I'm like, we're vertical.

It's so cool because she got sober 20 years ago.

We're not on the lamb.

She still feels this way.

This is a 20 years ago.

No, it's a resting day.

Like, if I get, I'm not going to jail again.

Like, most likely.

I know.

Blue lights.

Exactly.

I'm like, I'm sober.

Act sober.

Act sober, Glenn.

And I'm like, no, I am sober.

I don't think I'm sober.

How do sober people act?

But I want to just talk about spirituality a little bit because you brought up.

spirituality, Amy.

And in one of my favorite songs, which I mean, I spent the week trying to figure that out, it's impossible to decide.

In Second Time Around, you talk about being God-fearing lesbians,

which is like, I don't know why, just that hits.

Okay.

So,

from your lives right now, from your perspectives right now, who is this God?

Do you still believe in a God?

Who is this God for each of you?

And are you still afraid of her?

Great.

You go first, Emily.

Emily.

Oh, my God.

Okay.

I don't like the word God.

I don't like any type of language that tries to describe what this thing is that's beyond human

comprehension,

any of that.

So there's not really a word for what I believe, but I believe in, it's more like of, it's more like a Holy Spirit.

And it's, I believe in science, and I believe in

the presence of something that is not of the physical world, that's in relationship to the physical world and to all of us.

I believe in regeneration

and,

you know, energy isn't lost.

And I just feel like there's an incomprehensible relationship between energy, spirituality, and the physical world, which is so awesome.

And I know that I got help outside of myself, not only my community and people, to get sober and to any struggle I have in my life.

I know that when I engage in the relationship with this spirit,

I'm able to get help.

I'm able to get wisdom.

And I have almost an unshakable belief, except if I'm sick, if I get COVID or something, or what happens in the world, or if children are shot in schools, then I'm like, I don't know if I really believe this.

And then I just have to get back centered.

But so that's my belief.

There is something.

It is more powerful, wise, incomprehensible than any of us can know.

And it's not because I have to believe it.

It's because it has shown itself to me in my life and in other people's lives.

Gorgeous.

Amy?

I don't really mind if people say God or whatever word they want to use.

It doesn't bother me.

Because I think we all have constructs that we need to live, you know, Joseph Campbell, the myth, and all that stuff.

But I agree with Emily that I don't,

it's so limitless.

It's a great mystery.

I think the light, you know, is within all of us, as the Quakers say.

And

we all have it.

So

whatever you call God is within us.

But my friend Katie Pruitt, the songwriter, was asking, she's a recovering Catholic, and she was like,

you know, where do you find the divine?

And I was like

in in nature in science as emily does i mean i think science is like

a freaking miracle um

i find it in awesome looking in the stars you know and nasa and looking at like the jet propulsion lab and jpl women that do all that research and i just i find it in Krista Tippett

and people that have that, that are in touch.

I find it, you know, there.

But nature is my main thing.

I was raised Methodist, though.

And so I have this construct that I still adhere to quite a bit and cling to.

I mean, I still have a relationship with my Jesus, you know, who is,

I guess, non-binary, maybe, and just called Jesus.

I don't know.

I just, I have a southern built-in filter.

that's like a southern thing where you go to church three days a week, but all the time you're interpreting it your own way in order to gather what you need to be strong.

You know, I loved, as Abby, I loved, I loved youth group.

I love Friday night skating.

I love Bible school.

I love Wednesday night supper.

It's all like, I love it.

I never don't love it, but I was taught some pretty bad things as well.

But the good stuff has stayed with me equally.

So I'm still kind of a churchy person sometimes.

And I hope the Methodists can get their shit together and start welcoming gay people into the true Methodist church.

I think curiosity is a divine thing.

You know, I think, I think our spirit, I think our great mystery and our God,

whoever that is, whatever that is, what energy it is, reveals itself in our curiosity.

So that's the beautiful thing that we have in common with animals too.

Like dogs are curious, people are curious.

you know, ants are curious, whatever.

Curiosity binds us together.

And then, you know, my partner, Carrie, she always, whenever things really bad happen or someone's having a really hard time, she always, she says like something that's really comforting.

I don't know if it's true, but it's comforting.

She always says, remember they have their higher power.

You know, everyone has their higher power.

Those kids that died, they have their higher power.

power.

You know, in other words, we see what's in front of us in our little umfeldt world, you know, what we only have, but we don't see this bigger thing of the souls of those kids or all this stuff.

And it's not comforting when you lose somebody, but it's the wisdom of like that, as Emily says, you know, the long view and like just letting that comfort you sometimes, you know, is okay, even in the face of like really hard stuff.

You know, so

you too.

I mean, I think the themes of this hour and the themes of my life, which have been freedom in faith, freedom in sexuality, freedom in sobriety,

You too have been

my community

in freeing myself in all three of those areas.

And I know that you

don't know me as well as I know you,

but you've walked me to freedom in all three of those areas.

And I'm, I will be grateful for you forever.

I will continue to listen to you every single day of my life.

And

we love you.

We love you very much.

You've brought so much love and joy into our lives.

You're the best.

I feel the same way about y'all.

Feel the same exact way.

Just, you're just like your lights in the world and you're so human, your fallibilities, and your vulnerabilities.

But you just keep shining y'all's lights.

And it's moving to me.

It's not my false eyelashes.

I feel moved, you know, it's like, thank you for that.

Yeah.

Thanks for all the work y'all do.

I mean, y'all are,

y'all are mentors to a lot of people, and you do a lot of great work.

And it's,

I'm thankful for it.

I really am.

Me too.

Thank you both.

And I just forgot that we also have a pod squad listening.

So also thank you, pod squad.

I literally forgot that.

Yeah, we need to wrap it up.

Okay, okay.

Bye.

We'll be back next time.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.

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