131. How to Raise Untamed Kids with Dr. Becky Kennedy

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Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

I am so excited because we have Dr.

Becky back here who is solving our lives.

And

we're going to answer some of the Pod Squatters' questions today about parenting kids, but also about just reparenting ourselves and how to human differently and with a little less shame and

more

compassion and joy.

Sister, you were talking about something pretty cool that you wanted to ask Dr.

Becky about to start us off with.

Yes, I am fascinated, Dr.

Becky, by your

complete reframe on consequences and punishment and

the way that you talk about

actions being moments and consequences versus skills.

Can you just walk us through that?

Because it was, it was mind-bending to me.

Yeah.

So

let's take a situation like

my kids, I don't know, jumping on the couch.

And maybe it's like a couch in my house that I wouldn't let them jump on.

I actually don't have that couch, but many people have nice couches.

So they're jumping on the couch.

And I'm like, get off the couch.

Or maybe I say it nicely.

I'm like, hey, can you get off the couch?

I'm laughing, thinking about the Will Farrell skid of saying, get off the shed.

I don't know if any of you

can you please get off the shed or that, can you please get off the couch?

And they don't, right?

So my four-year-old like, even looks at me, you know, the way a four-year-old will look at you and then go back to like, yes.

Like, I double dare you.

Yes.

Exactly.

And they keep going.

Great.

So, what would consequence punishment would be something like,

you don't get dessert tonight?

That's it.

You don't get dessert tonight, right?

Something like kind of random that I'm taking away.

Right?

Which also I'm going to regret later because now I've been dealing with the meltdown about dessert, right?

Exactly.

Or I'll be like, does this count as dessert?

Maybe it doesn't.

Fine, you get this, but it's not really dessert because I said no to this.

You get a watchful dessert.

It's such a mess.

Or we're always taking away screen time, which, by the way, is the only good time.

100%.

Sometimes you're the best parent when your kids are watching screen time.

It's your best parenting moment you're taking away.

That would be consequence punishment for quote bad behavior.

There's so many problems with this.

Number one, I feel like there's just a logical problem that people haven't thought about in like the space-time continuum.

Something led to my kid jumping on the couch and then led to them doing it even after I said stop.

Something, there was an antecedent.

Okay.

I believe that by adding something after, like a consequence, that that's going to be the most effective way of changing the behavior.

Next time I kid, my four-year-old is going to be like, wait, the last time I didn't listen, I did get dessert taken away and get a waffle instead.

So, as such, I am not going to smack my sister in the arm.

It doesn't make any sense.

Like, forget how you treat humans, which I is actually the thing that drives me.

Just logically, I'm like, that's not how behavior change works.

We don't change behavior by inserting a different behavior after.

We change change behavior by changing the process that would happen before.

Like, don't we want to focus on the before?

And that doesn't make sense by focusing on the after.

So that's the biggest thing.

So what would help?

Well, I wonder what my kid, my good kid, would need to not jump on the couch after I asked.

If I assume he's a good kid having a hard time, not a bad kid doing that, bad things.

I might also relate to myself.

Well, what would stop me?

Because there's a lot of times I'm like, I shouldn't have chocolate before dinner.

I know that.

My husband might even say, I'm making a nice dinner, trying not to eat chocolate before dinner.

I might still do it, but not because I don't respect my husband, because it's hard to want something and not have it.

It's just a hard state.

So I wonder what it's like for my son to want to jump on the couch and not be able.

Well, like, that's probably pretty hard as a four-year-old to like get off the couch instead of jump.

So if I take consequences and punishments and to be like, number one, it's probably not effective beyond layering shame and adding the message of you're a bad kid, which only makes change harder because you're further identifying in the role you want your kid to move away from.

So that doesn't make sense either.

But instead of that, I might number one, embody my authority.

So many times with parents who give consequences and punishments, the real issue is we're asking kids to do the job we should be doing.

My four-year-old, if he's dropping on the couch and I say, please get off and he doesn't.

It is my job to go over and say, look, I'm only going to say this one last time.

And as soon as I'm done talking, if you don't do the thing I say, I am going to pick you up because if you can't get off the couch, you're showing me you're having a really hard time.

I will pick you up and take you off the couch and show you the areas you can jump.

Like, that's my job.

My kid is showing me he can't put up a boundary, right?

We would never watch a kid run toward the street and just say, if you run at traffic, you're going to lose dessert tonight.

Like, we would just pick them up.

Like, I can't imagine that as effective parenting technique, right?

We'd just be like, I'm just going to grab them.

Not because they're a bad bad kid, but because they can't inhibit the urge, because the urge is greater than their ability to manage that urge.

So what would I do then in a calm moment?

I'd probably in a calm moment say, hey, I have a funny idea.

You know how sometimes you want to do things that I say you can't do.

I know I want to do things that people tell me I can't do too.

That's so tricky.

We're going to practice because anything we want to learn, we have to practice.

So this is weird.

I'm going to have you get on the couch.

Like I know, I always tell you to get off.

I'm going to have you get on the couch, get on the couch.

And I'm going to say,

hey, can you please get off the couch?

And then you can jump off the couch.

And I want to see if you can do five ridiculous, silly jumps, funnier than my jumps on the floor, right?

My kid's going to do this because it's a game, because it's fun.

Now maybe I do jumps with him and I fall and now it's funny, right?

I'm teaching them a skill.

When you can't do one thing, you probably could do another thing.

I'm practicing that skill.

I'm actually infusing connection into a moment that usually feels full of shame and aloneness.

The next time it comes, could I guarantee my kid's going to get off?

No, but I also know if they don't right away, I'm going to do it myself.

But I guarantee the likelihood is higher because I've actually worked on the skill that they've needed instead of layering on aloneness and shame and distance and punishment, which actually freezes a child.

That's what a shame response is.

It's a freeze animal response.

Freezing doesn't lead to change.

Right.

So

it reminds me of grown-up stuff.

It reminds me of people who are trying to get sober or why we drink or why we binge or whatever.

So what happens is we're at the end of a long day and then we're trying to not drink or trying to not binge and then we do.

And then afterwards we're just freaking

berate ourselves and are so full of shame and so full of self-loathing and often give ourselves consequences.

I will never, I won't eat for eight days.

I will not do whatever.

But really what we have to do is look at the before.

Instead of being mad at ourselves afterwards, we have to be 10 times kinder to ourselves beforehand.

Instead of being like, I'm a bad person who binged, like I'm a good person who binged.

So why did I binge?

Because this day I did not take care of myself.

Yes.

I, Dr.

Becky, need like a lot of

tender self-care all the time.

And it's taken me a long time to be like not ashamed of that.

Because you can get to the place where you're like, well, it's not normal to need that much tenderness and self-care.

So I'm just not going to do it to be like everybody else.

And then why do I keep binging?

So it's like the looking beforehand to what led to that thing that I didn't want to do and shoring up all the antecedents with like more tenderness, more love, more rest, more what I want to do, more fresh air, whatever, is true all the way through for grown up, for whenever we do something that we don't think we want to be doing.

A hundred percent.

And I think for any kid's behavior, and if everyone here is thinking about a behavior in their kid or behavior in themselves, start with yourself.

Like, what is a behavior that I want to stop and I'm struggling to stop?

I think a question we often skip, even though it's the most important question, is what is this thing I'm doing that's not working for me anymore?

What is it doing for me?

It's serving a function.

I'm an animal.

I'm oriented by evolution.

My body would never be trying to work against itself.

So what am I looking for?

So that kid jumping on the couch, maybe they have an urge they can't inhibit, or maybe they're looking to feel independent.

Kids feel controlled all the time.

So a kid will jump on the couch when you say no to prove, going back to realness, also like, I'm my own person.

I'm my own person.

So so often with my kids, when they're in that stage, I might say something like, I don't even know why I'm telling you this.

If you say ugly, woggly, bugly, like five times, like it literally drives me crazy.

Like there's nothing I hate more than that.

Please don't ever say that.

Like I'll give them something proactively that I quote, hate.

That's kind of funny.

And guess what?

The next time I ask them to do something they don't want to do, they're more likely to do it because if that behavior, rejecting me, was really serving the need of feeling like their own person and feeling independent.

Well, if you get that need met elsewhere, then you're going to be less attached to that behavior because the need has already been filled.

So, with kids and with us, it's recognizing and regulating our emotions.

validating our emotions and making a plan.

That's how we help ourselves.

And that's how you just said to help the kid.

And if it seems weird, your swimming example is like the perfect crystallization.

We wouldn't say, okay, our kids need to learn that there are consequences for not knowing how to swim.

So I'm just going to yell at my kid.

You have to swim.

If you don't swim, oh, you're going to get in so much trouble.

You would never do that.

You would say, let me teach you how to swim.

We don't scream at them for not knowing how to swim.

We just say, here's how you swim.

Exactly.

Right.

I think that's exactly right.

And like the swim example, I think does crystallize it.

We feel like people are judging us.

And maybe parents judge other parents, but I think it's more in our head than anything else because we're like, oh, if I don't punish my kid who's having a meltdown at the party, every parent is going to think I'm, I don't know, whatever.

But again, like if you were teaching your kid how to swim and they didn't know how to swim, or now you were in harder waters and they couldn't swim carefully there.

And you didn't punish your kid.

Like if a parent came up to you and is like, you know, you're really reinforcing this whole not swimming thing by the way you're responding to their inability to swim, you would just be like, you're not someone who makes sense and we're not going to be friends.

That doesn't make sense.

And so looking at kids' struggles, looking at our own struggles as like, this is a sign of a skill I need to build.

This is a sign also, like you were saying, Glennon, earlier, like,

what state do I need to be in?

to access my skills, right?

They're both really relevant.

That's what our kids need.

And I think so many approaches to parenting really have looked at kids as like, it's like animal training.

Yeah.

Right.

Like rather than like kids are closer to us than they are to, you know, other animal species.

What we need, you know?

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All right, we're going to get to some amazing questions from the pod squad.

Let's just hear from the first one.

Hey, y'all, I have a question about listening to your inner guide and parenting and obedience because I feel like I was raised with like a very typical kind of second-wave feminist mom who was like, Yeah, be strong, be yourself, but then also really expected me to do everything she said.

And then I got a lot of trouble listening to other people and doing what they said.

I was in a very abusive relationship, and because I just thought following the rules was so important.

So, I guess, how do you, as parents, balance, you know, your

getting your child to listen to their own voice and doing their own thing versus the needs of like having to get them out the door so that they can get on the bus in the morning?

I'd really love your advice on threading this obedience parenting needle.

So thank y'all so much.

You're amazing.

Bye.

That's an awesome question.

I think these things can come together more easily than we think, not from the place of obedience, because we usually obey someone we're fearful of or someone who has control over us.

I think kids end up listening to parents for two reasons.

Either they feel very connected to them and very kind of close to them, or they feel very fearful of them.

And like you were saying, there are consequences to wiring fear next to love.

Like there are.

I could probably think about it.

There's a lot of consequences to that early on.

Like, what?

And,

like, the people we end up being attracted to later on are the people who evoke that earliest attachment.

And so, being fearful of someone, having someone having control over us, someone dictating who we are and what we want, our body's like, oh, I know how to do this.

This is what love is.

Yep.

Yeah, that one, that consequence.

Just that one, then.

Just

small one or something.

Always, always able to be rewired and reworked, as I think so so many people know.

And it's hard work, you know?

So

why else do kids listen?

The same reasons we listen.

If my husband asked me for a glass of water when we were both sitting on the couch, you know, and that day we felt really close and he listened to me.

And I don't know, he didn't have his phone out when we were talking.

I'd probably be like, sure, I'll do that, even though I don't want to.

And if the opposite was true, I'd probably be like, get your own water.

And if then he said to me, you don't respect me and you're not a good listener, I'd be like, that's really not what's happening.

Like our relationship is, you know, not feeling as close as it could be.

And the manifestation of that is not listening when you want me to listen to you.

So

how can we manage that with our kids?

First of all, I think we just want to differentiate, again, like a behavior from validating what's happening to a kid.

So saying to a kid, hey, we got to put our shoes on and, you know, go out to school.

Like works so much better at first you say, oh man, are you playing with those blocks?

Oh, that looks really fun.

Oh, putting away blocks to go go to school.

Oh, I remember being four.

That's so tricky.

Or even with a teenager, same thing.

Hey, look, we're going to have to leave in a minute.

And I know you're in the middle of blank, whatever they're doing.

I know it's going to be annoying to finish blank and go do this thing I'm asking.

Just want to let you know.

I know that's going to be a, you know, annoying moment in your day, period.

Then when I go back to their room and a minute later and say, hey, now's that time.

We really got to go so we can get to X on time.

They're going to be so much more likely to do it, not because they're obeying you, but because they feel seen by you, because they feel close to you.

Now, having said that, just as a pragmatist, there are always moments,

especially I'm thinking with my age kids, where I, where I do all these things, or I think I do these things, maybe I don't.

And still, it's like, we got to get out the door and get to school.

And I might say to my five-year-old, Hey, look, it's really hard for you to listen right now.

I really don't want to do this, but I'm going to have to.

I'm going to pick you up and strap you in the car.

And it's not going to feel good to you or me.

And you're just kind of telling me we have to figure this out in a different way next time.

Okay, here I go.

And then I might do that.

Naming again for my kid, oh, you don't, you're not liking this.

You didn't want this to happen.

This doesn't feel good.

Even in that moment where I'm kind of, again, embodying my authority, I am still validating their experience.

And then it's a flag to me.

Like I get through that drop off.

I'm like, oh, God, that was, that was horrible.

I call a friend.

And I'm like, okay, what was going on here?

Is my kid anxious about going to school?

It's my teenagers.

My kid anxious about going to school.

Do I not know about the test they have?

Could peer stuff be going on?

Is this their way of showing me I'm an independent person?

How could I work on that in other places?

Maybe I'd say to them when they get home, hey, this morning, this morning was a shit show, and like we don't want it to go that way, either of us.

I'm sure you have ideas about how the morning could go more smoothly.

Let's work on this as a team.

What could I do better?

Your kid's going to be more likely to cooperate when they feel connected to and real and part of this and

part of decision-making.

So, you see

not listening not as a sign of disrespect, disrespect, but a sign of not enough connection.

I think it's not a person problem.

It's like a relationship problem.

And that doesn't mean it's a parent's problem either.

I don't think the parent caused it.

But I think if it's a relationship struggle,

again, just like as parents, we're the leaders.

Like it's just, you know, you would never tell a CEO, hey, go to your associates and have them.

change the company culture.

You'd be like, no, your leadership team has to change the culture.

Okay.

I would assume this kid is a gays inward type.

How do you help those kids gaze outward?

And how do you help kids who are constantly gaze inwards to gaze up?

Gaze outwards.

Gaze outwards to gaze inward.

Because a lot of kids, we want both, right?

I mean, we want them to gaze inward first, as you said.

What are some strategies we can do to help kids start trusting their inner guides?

Like quick ways, how do you do that and vice versa?

Which one do you want to start with?

The kid who's more, a little more self-focused or other-focused?

Yeah, which one?

Let's just do self-focus.

Okay.

So, this is the kid who it seems like empathy, like they don't have it.

You know what I mean?

Like, they're always focused on themselves.

I think the place we have to start with those kids, which is always a hard pill to swallow, is we have to tolerate their distress for a lot longer than we do.

Because with those kids, when we want them to do things they don't want to do,

they put up a fight or they just complain, you know, or they ask over and over.

And then we often invoke, why can't you just do the thing your sister wants?

As opposed to saying, look, we talked about it.

Your sister's picking the movie tonight.

Your choices are to watch or you could go read in your room.

Those are your only choices.

And then my kid has to learn to tolerate the distress of other people kind of getting what they want before my kid is able to have empathy for other people around what they want.

right you have to i always say regulation precedes empathy it's always a prerequisite you have to regulate your distress before you have empathy for someone else we know this whenever we're super overwhelmed with a feeling none of us have any empathy for anyone in those moments because we're dysregulated right

so i think we skip that step with those kids a lot i think we we skip it because it's a pain in the and because they're scary those kids are scary and they always have such big feelings and then the whole family starts to just accommodate for them they're family hostage takers those are the family hostages yes and i I think that's where, again, that authority, and again,

some kids, and I think about the word entitlement around this, right?

Because, like, there's this entitlement to think.

Yeah.

Like, I should get to pick the movie.

Or I think about a family who came to me years ago and it was, they were horrified.

They're a very wealthy family.

And they're like, we got to this, we got to the airport.

And my kid found out.

I guess we can tell them we weren't flying first class, my 16-year-old.

And yeah, like it was a scene.

Oh, for

fuck's sake.

What the hell did you say to those people?

Hashtag relatable.

Hashtag Jesus.

So that kid's a good kid having a hard time.

And here's why.

Like that kid

is so fearful of their own frustration.

That kid has probably had frustration taken from them as soon as it appears for 16 years of their life.

Math is hard.

Here's the tutor right away.

This is hard.

We'll get a private.

This doesn't happen.

We'll get your own nanny.

Like they do, right?

It's just like, and let's just say money can buy your way out of frustration.

And if you have a 16-year-old who's never really tolerated tolerated not getting what they want, then they're going to have a tantrum just the same way a kid would in a store when they're not getting a toy they want at age two.

It's no different,

right?

So we're really talking with kids of how do we teach kids, especially those who gaze in, maybe also in a way, if there's an extra layer of having means,

how do we teach kids to tolerate frustration?

We have to tolerate feelings in our kids

before they learn to tolerate them.

in ourselves.

So those hostage takers, they need a little bit of strength.

And if it's not natural, I always say to people, like, say it into a voice recorder and play it back to you.

And if it doesn't, and like ask people around you, like, does this sound sturdy?

Okay, I'm going to up it again.

Like, like, actually, like, play around with it.

Like, they need to say, look, you don't want to watch the movie.

I'm only saying this one more time.

You don't have to watch the movie.

Your feelings about the movie are important and they're not going to dictate what our family does.

It's important in life to not get the things you want and learn how to deal with it.

This is one of those moments.

Let me know if you want to be in your room reading or watch the movie because we're about to start.

Like, those kids need that.

Okay.

and

we're going to just record what she just said so you can just play in your living room for your kids.

Yeah, I'm going to use that once a week for sure.

Well, I think it's important too, because when there's so many different dynamics in a family, that oftentimes one of these kinds of kids in a family will dictate what the other kids are like, yes.

And I think that that becomes problematic as TV nights become an issue, as

opinions about what we're going to go do or eat or listen to for music in the car ride, like these things all

really matter.

And if that's that, that's right.

Then those kids also, they need a little like prep.

So it might be before the car ride, look, I know you often have the loudest voice about what music we listen to.

And actually, most of us tend to like the music you listen to.

I get that.

Here's the thing.

It's really important, whatever it is, for your brother, for your sister, to also have a time where they're able to get the things they want.

And that's going to happen side by side to you being really annoyed and frustrated.

And I just want to let you know on this car ride, we're going to do something different.

I'm going to let your sister choose.

And even if she says, oh, actually, I don't really care, he can choose.

I'm actually going to make her choose.

Just like you need help tolerating frustration, she needs help speaking up and actually watching herself get what she wants.

So this car ride is going to be a lot of that.

And then prepare yourself for a not fun car ride.

It's going to pay off down the road.

No one's going to be happy.

So this is, but this is building resilience instead of happiness.

That's good.

Yes.

Right?

Dr.

Becky, I did pay attention to that part.

That the goal is not happiness for these kids.

Resilience.

The goal is resilience, which is defined by you as.

I think just like our ability to tolerate distress.

When I think about resilience, it's like I'm able to feel like me in a very wide range of emotions, in a very wide range of experiences.

I can kind of find myself.

I don't just find myself in happy.

I don't just find myself in getting what I want.

I also don't just find myself in making people happy and helping other people get what they want, right?

And that comes from being able to tolerate distress.

And I think, again, the biggest paradox is the more we help kids feel resilient and tolerate a wide range of emotions, that's actually what allows for the emergence of happiness.

Versus, I think we all know searching for happy.

Where's the happy, where's the happy?

That only is a lifetime of anxiety.

It doesn't bring any happiness.

That's right.

Right.

And so it's the idea is that

there's the resilience, but it's not alone.

We're doing it with them.

They're not feeling all of these scary and sad and all the feelings by themselves because we haven't abandoned them by telling them those things aren't real.

So we are constantly saying, how you feel is real.

I believe you.

And I believe you.

And we're together on it.

And the thing still stands, which, by the way, feels very familiar to the we can do hard things idea because it's like accountability,

but connection also.

100%.

I think resilience as we get older, it really comes from

having felt like someone else, probably your earliest caregivers, but other people too, were really there for you in your hard moments.

I feel like how a feeling ends up feeling in our body is the feeling plus how alone or not alone.

historically we felt in that feeling.

Wow.

That's really what it is.

And so every time we essentially say to our kid, I'm adding presence, right?

And I feel like I'm a big metaphor person.

So if you picture like your kid wandering around a garden that has like hundreds of benches, millions, right?

And the garden is life and they're wandering around and every bench is just an experience or a feeling.

I was left out.

I wasn't invited.

I didn't make the soccer team.

I was valedictorian.

Happy ones too, right?

Our kids come to us like kind of, we find them on a bench.

Maybe it was, I wasn't invited to this person's birthday party.

Can you believe I'm the only girl in our group of friends who wasn't invited?

Okay, they're on the, I was left out.

I wasn't included bench.

Guess what?

They're going to be on that bench a lot, like in life, right?

We all are on that bench.

And then I often think like resilience building is you as their parent sitting next to them.

Like that's actually what it is.

It's not, I think our instinct is either to kind of tell them their bench isn't their bench.

It's not that big of a deal.

You were invited last year.

It's one night.

Or our instinct is to yank them off the bench and bring them to like some sunnier, happier bench.

Oh, well, we'll have our own supper party that night with all the other friends, you know, whatever it is.

Right.

So, and then what we're really doing is the next time our kid's on that bench, they're like, oh, let me get off.

Like, this is like, I'm not like my mom wouldn't even sit on this.

She is so scared.

It's just like

she's so scared of this bench.

And to make it concrete, there's three lines that like, are like the.

concretization of like being on a bench when your kid is upset.

Number one is just saying, I'm so glad you're talking to me about this.

This is so important.

Period.

It's like an opening to a door.

I think that's an attachment language.

Our body feels this part of me is attachable to my parent.

Period.

Hard stop.

I wasn't invited to this party.

I'm the only one.

I'm so glad you're talking to me about this.

This is really important stuff.

And then often what happens after you open that door is kids do say, like, I'm so embarrassed.

They're going to be all over social media.

I'm like, everyone's going to know also.

Like, maybe I'm not friends with them.

Oh, like, I believe you.

Or I think another version of I believe you is, you really know you feel that way.

You're really sad.

You really know you feel that way.

And then the third line is just, tell me more.

Yeah.

Hell, that's it.

And then I think what happens, I'm going to cry, think about this.

Like, I feel like then what ends up happening is your kid gets off the bench before you.

They're going to move on when they're ready.

And then you'll find them, you know, at the next spot they need you.

And then what their body remembers the next time they feel left out.

They're whatever age and they have their first kid and they see like all the moms at the preschool had coffee, and they see them there.

Like, no one invited me to that coffee.

They're not going to feel happy, of course not.

That sucks, but their body next to that feeling is going to remember the warmth of your presence.

And because of that, it will be survivable and it will be hard, but not spiraling.

Oh my God.

Can you say this again?

Thank you so much for telling me.

I'm so glad we're talking about this.

It's so important.

Then after that, some version of I believe you or you really know you feel that way.

Yeah, I love that.

And then tell me more.

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Okay, let's hear from Emily.

My name is Emily, and there's so much great information about parenting nowadays, about how to break cycles, but I feel like there's not enough talk about how we're still going to screw them up.

Like, I feel like my generation of parents is going to get to the phase when their kid's in their 20s and the kids are going to say, hey, look, you still, you did this, this, this, and this screwed me up.

And I just feel like we're not going to be ready for that.

And I feel like we need to hear more often about this, just the natural process of learning and unlearning that we all have to do, no matter.

what great parent you were, how it's not really about being a good or bad parent.

But I feel like we all need to be ready to have that conversation one day with our kids and not take it personal.

Let's talk about how we're not going to be perfect and how we are going to fail our kids.

And let's just all be ready to hear how we screw them up one day.

That's so poignant and so important.

So yes, yes, yes, yes.

And also, I just like hear myself talking in this podcast.

I'm like, oh no, I feel like people think I like say these things to my kids all the time.

I hope they don't think I like actually say these things to my own kids all the time.

I definitely say like, you're making a big deal out of nothing.

This is a work in progress for all of us.

Like Dr.

Becky is not the parent of my kids, nor should she be.

Like having someone who's perfectly attuned to your needs sets you up to be looking for a partner who is always perfectly attuned to your needs.

Like that's not a good setup.

Right.

So

actually, I think that speaks to what you're saying here, which is the process of like misattunement and repair.

Like, oh, you got that wrong about me and that didn't feel good.

Or you did this thing and I didn't like it.

Repair, I actually think is like the single most important parenting strategy.

Like, I always think it's like the thing we should get really good at, which is both hearing from our kids about the things they're mad about and proactively saying some version of, I'm sorry, and that was me, not you, for the things we know we kind of were reactive around.

The point of working on parenting and things like that is obviously for our kids.

And we know the way we interact with them matters.

I think, though, that doesn't mean that the goal is to like create perfect kids or like do it perfectly.

And I think the goal is like the more and more we learn about ourselves in the process, the more we grow, we just feel like sturdier people in the world, which ironically makes us much more capable of at any point hearing, mom, I really didn't like that you did that way.

And then when we feel sturdier, right?

Again, when we feel our identity isn't as much attached to any single moment or behavior, we're actually able to see that with our kids as, wow, this is like a moment of like really deepened connection.

My kids letting me know something that's important to them.

It kind of makes me think those same lines apply, right?

Like they always do.

They always do.

I'm so glad you're talking to me about this.

That's really important.

Oh, that didn't feel good to you.

You really know you feel that way.

Tell me more about that.

And so I think the goal with our kids is not to have perfection in parenting.

That is like a creepy, creepy goal.

It's,

you know, just to feel sturdier ourselves, to feel like we're interacting more often, not all the time, in a way that actually feels grounded and in line with our own values.

And then, yes, to be ready for those moments to hear where things were off and to offer curiosity and compassion and openness, because that's actually part of that pathway of deepening our connection with our kids.

Yes, it's like preparing ourselves, like doing the personal work on ourselves now so that in 10, 20 years, when our kids come to us with the inevitable issues that we've caused,

we will be able to handle it and hold it.

and be with curiosity about it and say, tell me more.

I love that.

The sturdiness is such a good word because I do.

Glenn and I were talking about this the other day.

It feels like there's this like parental fragility where this idea that if you bring anything to your parents that you wish were different, it's like the whole house of cards tumbles and it was like doomed.

Whereas that doesn't make any damn sense.

And I feel like we perpetuate it too by not admitting when we made a mistake.

It's like, if we can just never admit we made a mistake, then we can preserve this kind of infalluble image for our kids, which is utter horseshit it's that same fragility and yeah so much of what we try to do is break a cycle and then breaking cycles is so hard that we inevitably screw it up and then we feel like damn it well i can apologize for that but i'm still not breaking the cycle but you say that when you are repairing you are cycle breaking yeah repair is everything like repair is everything right because again our bodies register everything that happened when we yell at our kids, when I yelled at my daughter this morning, her body felt that.

And I don't, it's just how the body works.

It registered that experience, right?

So either my options, whether she brings it up or not, either my options are that kind of somatic memory lives floating around her body as kind of the end to some chapter, or I get to go back to that moment.

Like I actually get to go back to that chapter.

I reopen the book to that moment in the chapter and I actually get to write a different ending.

Like that's so empowering.

We don't even realize like repair is not a sign of like being a bad parent.

Repair is like this amazing opportunity to add in all the elements that were missing in the first place, right?

So when I say, hey, I was, I was distracted this morning, I was stressed about something at work, I ended up yelling at you.

I'm sorry, it's never your fault when I yell.

And one of the things I'm going to work on is the few hours you have before you go to camp.

I really can put my phone away so I can be more present and calmer and there for you.

I'm going to really work on that.

Her body then feels that, right?

And that's a huge opportunity, whether I do it today or repairing for things even years ago, right?

Like if you have a teenager or an adult child or you're disconnected from and you look back and you're like, you know what?

Like, yeah, I did yell at them a lot.

I definitely don't think I did all this like, oh, your feelings are a real thing.

Like, okay, like still a good person inside, didn't do that.

What would it be like if I called up my 25-year-old?

And I was just like, hey, I've been thinking.

I don't even know all the specifics, but like, I just know time after time, I probably engage with you in a way that felt really bad to you.

And like, you probably felt misunderstood or like, I was never trying to understand you.

And I think you were right to feel that way.

And I'm not sure exactly where we go from here, but I'm thinking about it and it matters.

And I think I could actually hear about that from you if you ever are willing to talk about that with me.

Like, who wouldn't be moved by that?

Like, talk about reopening of a book.

Like, it just repair, it always matters.

And it's what starts that rewiring process.

Yes, because you say that when you going back to your kids and repairing and saying, what I did was not acceptable, you are teaching them to expect that love looks like when they are treated poorly, love looks like circling back to repair that.

That is an inherent, invaluable part of love.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Right.

That love isn't perfect.

It's not the absence of misattune.

It's not the absence of conflict.

But also when we don't repair with our kids, and this is always what also like like spurns me.

I'm like, I got to go to my kids' room and own it.

Because again, if that experience registers in a kid's body, they're like, oh, wow, I got yelled at.

That was scary.

Whatever it was.

If I don't repair, kids really only have two ways of explaining distress to themselves when they don't have a narrative, kind of a coherent narrative from a parent.

And it's self-doubt and self-blame, right?

Self-doubt is, I don't, I don't, maybe I overreacted that.

That wasn't a big deal.

If that really happened, someone would have talked to me.

Like, and then that looks as an adult, like, am I overreacting?

would someone else have reacted this way would all my friends would they like it's just that self-doubt and self-blame is if i was only a better kid that would never have happened it's my fault something's wrong with me i'm too much i'm not enough and if we wonder why adults like are you know such prevalence wiring for self-blame and self-doubt it's because in those moments that's what we were left with and we can you know we can really help our kids you know and we can help ourselves in those moments too i always think the first step to repair is repairing with yourself right before you go say to your kid i'm sorry for yelling you have to say to yourself, I'm a good parent who yelled there, right?

Like, I'm a good parent who yelled.

That does not define me.

In fact, I have an opportunity as soon as my body calms a little bit and I feel a little bit of a release and I find that goodness inside me.

I'm going to go to my kid and I'm going to do something.

And the macro of that is

pod squatters.

So there's this moment where if you have raised children who feel a connection to you and who have

been doing work on themselves and have evolving, have been evolving past as they should be into a future that you were not from because you raised your kids in a different time.

They are going to come to you and talk to you.

If you're lucky, this is already happening to us.

They are going to have some epiphanies about the way you raise them.

And they are going to come to you in different ways and tell you those things.

If you're lucky.

What I'm seeing through some of my friends, through my parents, through whatever, is that

there is a reaction to that, which is freeze it out.

Do not go back there.

Do not explore.

And we have to get past that.

That's what sister and I have labeled

parental fragility, because it reminds me so much of white people and race.

It's like, I'm not racist.

I'm not racist.

Let's be quiet.

Don't ask me those questions.

Don't bring it up.

If I just keep saying it, if I deny it, then I'm not racist.

It's like

this idea that we are so afraid afraid that we weren't good parents that that fear of not being good parents keeps us from being good parents because good connection and parenting in that moment is

i think is like holy shit tell me more like

i believe you tell me more i believe you tell me more tell me more it's like our oldest has told us some things that i'm just like wow

I am a good parent.

I can't believe that I did that shit.

And the kind of reparenting that it actually has created in me, Glennon told me years ago, I made a mistake.

She said, why don't you just talk to Emma about it?

Apologize.

It was the first time I've ever heard somebody tell me that a parent apologizes to a child.

I was 40 years old

and I did it.

And it made me have like this this experience of being able to reparent the little kid in me

that never got apologized to for many mistakes.

And so I think that there's this beautiful healing that can happen to our own selves through this process.

When you're older, you stop feeling like you're walking on a tightwire.

You're just being human.

And then when you mess up, you get to talk about it and grow more connected.

And in terms of grow more connected, I think, you know, for anyone, like everyone who's listening and thinking like of their older kids, like, Our relationship with anyone strengthens the more parts of them we get to know.

Yes.

So when your kid kid brings forward a part that's surprising to you, it, you know, first of all, you can always say, like, this is important.

I need a moment so I can be there for you, right?

You can say that to a kid if you're like noticing defensiveness or you notice you want to say, like, you're accusing me of being a bad parent, whatever it is.

But if you think about being a good parent as defined by

my job is to learn more and more about my kid.

My job is to learn as much as I can.

And so all data is good data.

Yes.

All data is good data.

Rather than when my kid does something, seeing it as a reflection of my goodness.

They're totally different interpretations.

That's why parents get so fragile.

That's why anyone gets fragile is because they think their goodness is under attack.

And when our goodness is under attack, our body shuts down from an evolutionary animal defense state.

Okay, I'm a good parent whose kid is sharing new information, right?

And if you know your kid's going to come, okay, I'm a good parent.

And actually, I have such a good parent moment here.

My kid's going to share the information and my only job is to learn.

I'm like a naive scientist, just learn, learn, learn.

And that really, I think, redefines how I can feel good as a parent, right?

In a almost like complete 180 type of way.

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Okay, let's hear from Liz.

Hi, my name is Liz, and my wife and I are raising three fabulous, amazing, awkward children that we adore.

Our daughter is nine years old.

She recently at school has been having some issues with kids using inappropriate or what we would deem inappropriate language at school directed at the girls.

She spoke up and she had told them that this is inappropriate and it makes her feel uncomfortable.

She came home and told us and we then went to the school with the issues, but the problem continued.

She was then kind of moved and therefore because she was the one being moved, she took that as her being the problem.

So my question is

how

in this world are we supposed to raise a brave and courageous child in a world that seems like it's teaching her the opposite?

It's a great question.

And I feel like there's so many extensions of this.

So my first reaction is this.

When our kids come to us with something that's really upsetting in their environment,

we often look to change their environment instead of centering their experience.

It's a really different reaction.

Centering a kid's experience is some version of, wait, so where were you when that happened?

Oh, you're in the lunchroom.

Tell me more.

What happened after?

Oh, okay.

And then what?

Wait, these people all did that and you said this.

i'm focusing on zeroing in their experience i wow my kid's like yeah it was horrible yeah i believe you that sounds so bad i wish i was there with you right i wish i could have changed that situation for you that sounds awful i'm really centering their experience centering changing their environment looks like i'm gonna call the principal i'm gonna call the principal i gotta change this and we don't have to choose one or the other obviously.

And there are situations, of course, where we have to work on, you know, shifting something that's not safe in a kid's environment.

But But I would argue that first we have to center their experience and we often skip that.

And it's often what kids need first.

And then when we just change their environment, they're very alone with their experience.

So your bigger question was like, how do we raise brave, grounded, bold children in a world that feels really bad?

I think brave, bold children like have a lot of self-trust.

And self-trust really comes from having your experience having been seen as real and important,

not

from having your experience be made to be better, right?

That's where I would really, really start.

And I'll share a little more details.

Like, there's something when my kids have a hard time away from me that I do that I feel like is, is, it almost seems like counterintuitive, like, why would it be helpful?

But if you picture your kid, let's say it's in the lunchroom, they're in a playground, these words are happening, or maybe for someone else, it's like they were on the bench at recess, like having no one to play with.

Infusing your presence into that memory is the single best building strategy, I think.

So like, and you can do that by asking like really specific questions.

Like,

oh, so you were on that bench, which the one on the top of the hill?

Oh, the one on the bottom.

Who was around you?

Oh, oh, so you're on the slide.

Huh, did you stay on the bench?

Oh, no, I got up.

Oh, where did you go?

If you actually think about what's happening in your child's body, you're now like walking with them.

Like if you go back to that idea of aloneness is the enemy, you've now infused your supportive presence into this experience that was hard because of what happened, but it was also hard because they felt alone.

And you can't change the hard, but you actually can even retrospectively change the alone.

Oh, that's so good.

And then also there's this whole other idea that like institutions are fucked up.

Sister, I remember when we were, you were calling me after the Roe decision came up and you were so overturning Roe and we were just, you know, in shock.

And you said, Alice is going to be raised in a world where she believes she's a second-class citizen.

And then we got to the point in that conversation where we were like, no, Alice is going to live in a world where she knows she's not a second-class citizen, but she knows that her government

treats her like a second-class citizen and they are wrong.

Yeah.

Which is different.

It's inherently different.

I'm married to a woman.

I'm, I have a queer son.

He's living in a country that is wrong.

Yeah.

He's not wrong.

So there is an element of this question that's like, that's that, right?

Like when you're, when, when a student, when a girl speaks up and then she gets punished for it in class, how do you explain to her, no, no, no, they punished you, but you did the right thing?

How do we

instill in these kids that sometimes

authority

will be wrong?

I think that starts with like that centering on their experience.

Because if you want your kid to also be like, wait, I spoke up and I got this reaction and the teacher let the boy call out and not me, let's say it's that.

Well, you actually first have to start with the fact that, okay, so your kid called out or whatever it was.

Okay, your kid was upset about how the teacher reacted.

You have to actually help your kid hone in on the fact that that was that experience, or else it's just like an intellectualized experience, which is actually not what helps kids day to day.

They have to embody those feelings.

And then I think think you can go to, wait, so now that we've gone through that, totally get why you felt that way.

Okay.

So this happened in class with this boy and you're also noticing that over here.

Like, what is that?

That is fucked up, isn't that?

Yes, we are right to notice that.

Telling my kids, you're right to notice that is another one of my favorite lines.

You're right to notice that.

Yep.

Yes, you are.

And then what are we going to do about it?

Or whatever else you might say to activate.

But I think we have to start with a kid's experience, then go to what they're noticing around them, and then go to, okay, some version of what are we going to do about it.

Yeah.

Our last question is Emily.

Hi, Glenn and Abby and Amanda.

My name is Emily.

I want to ask if you have any advice for raising children from a young age with a strong sense of self-worth and self-knowing.

I really struggled with these things for most of my life, and it contributed to a divorce at a young age and a less than ideal career choice.

My son is six months old, and I would really like to help foster a sense of self-worth and self-knowing in him as soon as I can.

Thank you.

My first reaction, Emily, is like, you're obviously on that pathway, just by the way you articulated what's really important to you.

So knowing what really matters to you

is going to be infused into all of your decisions.

So I would just take a moment and say, okay, I'm probably further along in getting to that outcome than I might have given myself credit for.

Next, self-trust and self-knowing.

Right.

To me, that is what confidence is.

It's not feeling good about ourselves.

It's self-trust.

It's trusting that we really are a good feeler of our feelings.

Like that's what I want my kids also to have when they get older.

Naming or wondering about how a kid's feeling, assuming that there's a story underneath what you see on the surface.

is what really allows kids from the start to develop circuitry that's essentially saying the things inside me are real and important.

And that allows for self-trust and self-knowing.

So even as a baby, when they're crying, oh, you're hungry, or oh, you're trying to crawl, or something I said a lot when I didn't know is, I know you know why you're upset, and I just can't figure it out.

You know, and you're really saying to a baby from the start, you know yourself.

The things inside you are real, even if other people don't understand them.

Right.

That's something I think we all could use to believe.

As kids get older, I think finding any opportunity to almost name and celebrate the ways they are different from you is hugely important.

So, like, I remember doing this in tiny ways to my daughter.

I'd be like, wait, isn't that kind of interesting?

Like, I'm having yogurt for breakfast.

You see me having yogurt and you just told me you want a bagel.

I kind of love that you see me doing one thing and you know you want another thing.

Now, my child is going to be like, mom, like, I don't even know, what are you talking about?

Give me that bagel, you know?

But that doesn't mean it's not really sinking in.

So, I think validating a kid's internal story, or even there's all these things I think we can say to a kid, even when we're not sure what's going on for them.

You know why you're upset or just, there's something about this that really doesn't feel good to you.

I believe you.

I always think we can validate before we understand.

There's something about this, right?

There's something about this that really doesn't feel good.

You know that.

Really kind of in some ways celebrating their differentiation, right?

Oh, we're going to a party.

I told you, you know, everyone's wearing dresses and you wanted to wear sports shorts.

How cool.

You know what you want to wear.

I hope you always know what you want to wear and always throw out the things I say that don't feel right to you, right?

I think, again, you're really encouraging a kid to gaze in

first and get grounded in themselves.

Oh,

Dr.

Becky, people are always asking me,

because untamed is, you know, about like undoing all of the messages.

One follow-up question to that was always, so how do we raise kids who don't have to untame?

Because it's exhausting.

Like, wouldn't it be great if we had kids who never needed to be untamed because they weren't tamed in the first place?

And I am telling you, I just, for the next right thing, I just feel like for people who are trying to figure out that, that out with their kids or for people who are trying to figure it out for themselves now,

that your work is that.

It's, that's the next right thing.

Go follow Dr.

Becky on social media.

Get good inside the book.

If you're not parenting or you're done with parenting or whatever, I'm telling you, it helped me with my relationship with myself and all of the people around me.

You're doing such important work.

If all of our self-critical, self-doubtful voices come from the beginning and come from what we were hiding from our parents, who were less evolved than people are now and will continue to be so.

If we keep doing this work and parents start

not shutting down

the humanity in their children, we're not really just talking about better parenting.

We're talking about an evolved human race.

Will we not have those voices?

Will we not hide parts of ourselves if we don't learn that in the beginning?

I don't think everything comes from one thing, but I've never felt so like optimistic and hopeful.

It feels very grandiose to be like, we're changing the world.

I even hear myself say that.

I'm like, oh, I want to take that back.

And yet, like on a minute level, there's obviously such massive sociological change, political change, all that.

So important to have the right environment and structures and leadership in the world.

And if people within their homes are really doing work to feel sturdier themselves and more healed and, you know, more confident themselves, and then are able to give not all of that, some of that in a different way to their kids.

I feel really optimistic and hopeful about the massive implications.

So, yeah.

It's good stuff, Dr.

Becky.

We can love hard things.

I love you too.

Me too.

She's the best.

She's so smart.

I know.

We will catch you back here next time on We Can Do Hard Things.

Pod Squad, we believe you.

Tell us more.

Bye.

I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlisle.

I walked through fire.

I came out

the other side.

I chased desire, I made sure

I got what's mine

And I continue

to believe

That I'm the one for me

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on map A final destination

we lack

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been

And to be loved, we need to be known

We'll finally find

a way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do a heart pain.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem.

Sometimes things fall apart.

And I continue to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took some time,

but I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that

A final destination

we lack

We stopped asking directions

to places they've never been

And to be loved we need to be known

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a hard thing

Adventures and heartbreaks on the map.

We might get lost, but we're okay with that.

We've stopped asking directions

in some places

they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do hard

things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do

hard

things.

We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.

Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it.

If you didn't, don't worry about it.

It's fine.