123. Find Your Towanda with Tig Notaro & Stephanie Allynne

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Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

This is a really exciting day because we have a double date happening today.

So exciting.

And that double date is with Stephanie Allen and Tig Notaro.

For real, that's happening.

Stephanie is a writer, actor, producer, and director.

Her acting credits include The L-Word, Generation Q, One Mississippi, Room 104, Dreamcore LLC, Love and Twin Peaks.

She also starred in the Sundance hits People, Places, Things, and Lake Bell's in a World.

Lots happened because of that one.

Stephanie is currently set to write and direct the feature film Time and Space that will star Tig Nataro.

Well, I wonder how she got that role.

She will produce alongside Notaro and Judd Apatow.

Tig Notaro is an Emmy and Grammy nominated stand-up comedian, writer, and actor.

Rolling Stone named her one of the 50 best stand-up comics of all time.

Nataro appears in Army of the Dead.

and Star Trek Discovery.

And Star Trek Discovery, lots of different like otherworldly things going on.

Well, she is otherworldly.

Yeah, yes.

Wrote and starred in the groundbreaking TV show One Mississippi and recently released her second HBO stand-up special, Tig Notaro Drawn.

Co-directed with wife Stephanie, the feature film M-I-O-K.

She hosts the advice podcast, Don't Ask Tig.

I've been on that.

and co-hosts the documentary film podcast Tig and Cheryl, True Story.

And Tig and Stephanie live in LA with their sons, Max and Finn, and their cat, Fluff.

Hi!

We didn't know

that our bios were going to be red.

Yeah, that's what you do at dates.

You've never done that a double date.

You have our bios, right?

So now you go.

We travel with your bios.

Nighttime reading.

I want to make an adjustment.

Okay.

we have three cats.

We have and we acquired two new ones left out are actually in Stephanie's office with us.

Right now.

And luckily they didn't hear it

because we have our headphones on.

Okay, and their names are

Skip and Linus.

Okay, and are they also producers and directors?

Yes, they work at Judd Appetow's production company.

Okay.

That's how we met them.

Got it.

Okay.

They were assistants.

They were assistants, And we asked them if they

wanted to live with two mothers.

And they meowed, which we interpreted it as yes.

Yes.

Could have been no.

Could have been hell no.

Seven tags speak cat.

It's good.

We do.

Well, we're so excited, really, really grateful for this double date.

We are so excited to be on.

Well, I met both of you

through Don't Ask Tig, but this is, do we pretend like that didn't happen?

No, no, no, we do.

We talk about that.

Yeah, that was a great hour together.

Did you do Don't Ask Tick too?

She was setting up the,

I was helping the tech child.

Oh, right, right, right, right, right.

You don't remember anything that I do for you.

Well, I remember Tick.

This is what long-term marriage is like.

Yeah.

Well,

before this long-term life, you know, the memory goes.

And I'm not saying you're elderly, but

I have a lot of memory problems.

Yeah.

So do I.

I will tell you that sometimes I don't know exactly

whether what you're saying is real or funny because before we jumped on, my sister was on and we were laughing so hard because two years ago,

Tig and I were emailing back and forth about to plan this freaking double date.

Okay.

Two years ago.

Okay.

I tried to schedule and then you emailed back and the email started with, Jesus Christ, Glenn.

This double date attempt has turned into a real full-blown pandemic nightmare at this point.

However, we are...

Are you reading it?

Yes, I found it.

However, we are around for rescheduling.

I must warn you, though, I will be starring in a major motion zombie flick.

After that, it's highly likely I will become too big of a deal for these types of friendships.

Okay.

I was like, I don't know if she's serious.

I called my sister.

I was like, is she hilarious or mean?

And I knew you were hilarious, but but I didn't know if you were hilarious and also mean.

So, I crafted an email back to you that could have worked either way, whether you were joking or whether you really were mad at me.

And does this happen?

Does this happen to you ever, or are you constantly?

Yeah, you know, it's terrible.

It's and I apologize, but I don't, but I do.

Well, it's because it happens not just through email, it's also just her like delivery.

There's no like change in inflection or facial

movement.

So you're just, people are just kind of staring like, really?

And then I'm like,

the other night we had dinner with a group of people.

I will not drop names, but you'd be impressed with who was there.

Was it Taylor Dane?

Yes.

And no, beforehand, there was an email chain of, hey, can everyone get tested?

You know, and everyone was chiming in and I just wrote no.

See?

What are you supposed to do with that?

I know.

I'm always like, of course she's kidding.

And then there's all this follow-up of like, are you, do you guys know how to get tested?

Is there a problem?

You're like, oh my God, no, we're totally like, see, I walk away thinking, of course, they know I'm kidding.

But why would I do that to somebody?

Why would I not test?

Why would I not

have a double date?

why would why why

this is similar to how we sort of got together officially um right that's a and it actually this this

got me married to this actually worked for this this humor worked for me so this was actually almost 10 years ago at this point yeah so we had been in this movie together in a world and we were you know dating

hanging out sorry hanging out actually

and i was like i'm straight but oh my god you're so funny and um and then we you're so funny

and i'm so some people think i'm funny and i'm some people think i'm funny

i really thought you were funny look i'm not for everyone that's fine you can't be for everyone that's right yeah that's right okay so um at what we were hanging out and and at one point um we kissed it was actually valentine's day let me get to the part where it's this humor and so we didn't kiss because it was Valentine's Day.

We were hanging out.

We kissed.

We have a great night.

And then I got home and like, oh my God, what have I done?

Like, I'm straight.

This is crazy.

I don't want to like mislead leader on whatever.

So I wake up in the morning and I write the longest emails.

Pages, pages.

That's just like,

I just think the world of you.

I love hanging out with you.

I think you're so funny.

I had a great time last night.

I don't regret anything.

It's like our bios.

You're just the greatest.

I'm just so unfortunately straight.

Otherwise, this would be amazing.

Friend zone emails.

Yeah.

And I'm like, reread it.

I'm like, okay, perfect.

And you just send it

like seconds later, she replies and it says, okay, Dyke.

And I was like, oh, no, I really like her.

Well, that's, that's good.

That's really good.

That's really good.

Well, I didn't even know what to do because we have so much fun together and we kiss so naturally.

And I was, I just thought, what does all of this mean?

Thou doth protest too much,

Stephanie.

Well, I know that Tig gets bored with the whole sexuality conversation.

I've heard you say that that's boring, but it's not boring to me because I'm brand new here.

So I want to hear.

Where did I say that?

That was probably.

Somewhere.

I read it.

You just said if you think it's boring, I don't know if you're serious about it.

I just said that.

No, I've just been dabbling for longer than you.

Yep.

And it feels the same way.

And so I'm just like, yeah, you know, but

I'm not discounting your need to talk about it or Stephanie, because Stephanie, she'd talk about it for she could write you pages of

pages.

Well, you know, when people are like new to AA or new to CrossFit or new to like veganism and they can't stop talking about it, like

we're new.

I'm not CrossFit, but I am the, I'll talk your face off about plant-based food.

Oh, Jesus.

So then I'm not even going to worry about this, about boring you.

I got my plant-based nutrition certification during the pandemic.

I did.

Yes, I did.

Okay, I did.

And you should have added that in my bio.

If you let me ask a question about sexuality, then I will listen to you talk about plants.

Okay.

Okay.

This is how friendship works.

It's a give and take.

So,

Stephanie, yes, what the hell?

So, you're straight, and you really believe you're straight your whole life.

Let me interrupt here, okay, okay, and then

she can talk about her sexuality

and answer this question.

But

let's talk about the other side of things of how many boyfriends you had.

Okay, oh, this is interesting.

Oh,

well, I've had a a lot of um boyfriends that i was not in long-term relationships with okay got it okay and you played basketball

thank you abby

and softball i was you can't oh my god like the two gayest slightly interested in women the two gayest i did notice that part of the documentary the basketball i did even notice that even i my gay dar was on and i i have the worst gay dar on earth because i didn't even know myself was i died laughing because i was like tignataro is going to watch her friend's basketball game.

And I'm like, I'm so straight.

No team.

Yeah, that was impressive.

Did you feel like you were, because I've heard or read, you say, that you didn't feel like you were hiding something from yourself.

No, I mean, truly did not know.

And I young.

teenager, early 20s, never had a feeling I was, completely thought I was straight.

And then I would date guys where I'm like, they're cool.

They're interesting.

They're, you know, like, it was kind of like

anybody I thought was a little interesting to talk to.

I was like, I guess I like him.

Yep.

And then

the relationship would start and they would obviously want it to grow.

And I'd be like, oh, this is casual.

This has to stay.

And then we'd have a date and I'd be like, I'm unavailable for a week.

So I'll see you next Thursday.

And I wanted them out immediately in the morning.

I'm like, get out.

Like,

they would want to have breakfast.

And I'm like, no, no.

Yeah.

No intimacy.

I would roll over and grab my phone and be like, pretend like it beeped and be like, oh, no, I have an audition.

Do you wish that you had figured it out early so that you could have been dating women that whole time?

Yes.

Yeah.

I look back on that and I'm like, oh, my God, what I was missing.

Right.

And how do you know?

I know, but you got it now.

Cause I kind of, Glennon's like, I wish that I knew earlier.

And I'm like, oh.

I know that bothers you when I say that.

Well, because I'm like, well, you can't go back in time, number one.

Number two, like that just means you'd be sleeping with so many more women.

I'm not into that.

Okay.

Well, this is me writing this out in real time.

And so were you, Tig, worried that she would, because Abby's friends all told her, do not get serious with this woman.

She's just going to like pretend she's gay for a minute and then she's going to go back to men.

Well, you were also married with that

true.

I was also married with three children, slightly different, which was another little see.

Stephanie was single with a roommate, and it felt more.

Um,

I didn't really hear um

that, no,

but I imagine people might have thought that.

I've dated so many um people that are interesting or beautiful, smart, funny, all these things.

And I talk about the inflection

where I would say, oh,

yeah, it's good.

You know, things are good.

Yeah, we'll see.

We'll see how it goes.

You know, she's cool.

And my voice would be up there.

And then when I met Stephanie, I noticed I was talking from this really honest place that was right here, where I would say,

I like her so much.

She is the greatest.

Oh my gosh, She's so funny.

And I noticed

I was not talking from that place.

I was always like, we'll see, you know, or this is, yeah.

And then I went,

oh, my gosh.

And

what's that?

It's true.

It's what?

It's really cool.

Oh, you didn't even need that extra comment from me.

I'm sorry.

I should have kept that.

We interrupted.

Go ahead.

What I heard was it's toodle.

And so I thought, well, let me just check in and see what toodle means.

But anyway, so when I noticed I was speaking from that place, I imagined I was talking to everybody from that place about her.

And

I just,

I don't know.

Maybe that's what it is.

That's what I'm kind of chalking it up to is maybe my friends were like.

oh, this is not a situation where TIGs,

you know.

What did you have?

Just people being, but you're not gay, just a vibe of like it's going to run its course.

And it wasn't being received in a way of like, oh, you're in love.

Nobody was

discouraging.

It was there.

I could just sense that sort of a vibe.

But you also had that vibe of people going, wow, I've never heard you talk about somebody.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

And at the same time, that you said, I think I realized I was actually gay a few years ago after we were married and after we had kids.

Yeah.

So which means,

what were you doing for those two years?

What were you thinking about or pursuing?

I mean,

it's pretty much it.

I really feel that way, though.

And I kind of blows my mind because when we got together, we were so in love and just have always been in love.

That was the thing.

It's just, I'm in love with Tig and Tig's a woman, but it's, and I think I went more in the direction of, oh my God, like labels are so dumb.

And I, you can fall in love with anyone.

It took time and sort of my own allowing myself to process of like, oh, I actually don't, I'm not attracted to men.

And I don't think I could ever be in love with a man.

And oh, that means I actually am gay.

And I missed this whole part of myself, which blows my mind.

And then I had to go,

so what am I attracted to?

What is my sexuality?

And what is my sexuality completely separate from tick?

You know, and that when you're married with kids to go through that, I felt like it was very hard because I,

it had nothing to do with our relationship.

It's like, of course, this is still strong.

And of course, I'm still in love, but I need to figure this piece out

because

I didn't, it's, I want to know it about myself i want to i want to understand it yeah and it's a scary place it's tricky because you're already married and so it's done i mean i remember in an early interview i said on the record the words

abby is my sexuality

that's written down

yeah

i was having this conversation with a friend and she was like so were you gay before what the hell glennon because she's known me forever and i said well i don't know i mean there's always been some things but well you know i've always thought that you know, guys' bodies were kind of gross and women's bodies were beautiful, but like everybody thinks that, right?

And she was like, No, Quennon, everyone doesn't think that,

like, what?

I know you like men's bodies.

Like, she said, Yes,

I don't even think men's bodies are gross, neither does Abby.

Me, neither, yeah, I do.

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I know we joke about sexuality, TIG, and Abby sexuality, but the truth is, is I think it's really awesome, TI, that you can hold the space for Stephanie to be able to do that.

Not many partners are confident enough in the love and the marriage to be able to do that.

We can't talk like that.

We don't talk like that.

This is the first time we've talked like that.

I mean, that's pretty much that's not 100% true.

A little bit.

Listen, you sat down at a table one day and you said, We are not standing up from this table until we figure out what I am because people kept asking me.

All right, let's figure it out.

I mean, I know we're married, so

it's hard to figure out after you're married, it really is.

I mean, Stephanie said, and then I closed a door early, and so I never ever got to discover what was behind it.

Yeah, I am human, and uh, and it's not, it's not just easy street knowing that there's any sort of um

uh

regret or something.

Gosh, I hope it's not regret.

I don't even know it's it's more terrifying, I think, if people are holding these secrets or thoughts.

Uh, that's when things get

um

rough, yeah, and as rough as the conversations are, or exploration, or thoughts,

I think it's that's easier to get through than

being

confined with those private thoughts or concerns.

And I assumed that if we were together, that

no matter if it was a woman, a man,

a tree,

a non-binary person, trance, whoever it was that

Stephanie, or even myself, that anybody could potentially think, oh, is that person attractive?

Or how do I feel about this?

Or how?

I know that Stephanie is a human being.

And

so it's complex, but I also

know so deeply that we love each other so, so much and we enjoy each other and we

have so much together.

We also have a lot of problems and issues.

Hey,

but

because we're alive and we're together, but I want to have those problems and issues with Stephanie.

And I think what was fascinating about kind of that discovery at the time in which it was was like, it almost was harder because we were so in love and because I was so in love.

It's like, well, I don't want to do anything that would weaken that intensity of that love by me exploring or thinking about the side of myself.

And what ended up happening when we worked through that

was just how much our love got stronger.

And being able to kind of go, oh, this is how I feel.

This is who I am.

Now you know that.

Now we've talked about it.

It changed so much.

And I think in a weird way, not knowing I was gay, I had sort of heteronormative ways that just were the way I saw things.

And then in this relationship, even though I'm now in a gay relationship, I was still going about things in a heteronormative way.

Like what?

Give me an example, because same.

Yeah.

Same.

I was like, I need to know, I want to be like all gay and everything, but I I also need to know who's getting the fucking bugs because it's not going to be me.

And I'm not carrying the trash out.

I need some, I need some heteronormativity in my lesbian relationship.

Yeah.

That is hilarious.

And just sort of that feeling of like, I think a power dynamic or who defers to who or how does something, oh, what does that mean if you do this and I do that?

Yeah, I for sure had a big growth spurt in this relationship because we have a 15-year difference between us.

And when we got together,

well, I don't mean to sound like a mathematician, but we were much younger.

And,

you know, even though I'd been in relationships, I was essentially single in the way that I wasn't married and the way I handled money or my house or whatever it was, my time,

I was calling the shots.

and then when stephanie and i got together um

i feel silly saying again she was much younger

but um

we met when i was 25 yeah wow and so

time went on and she was like listen

i'm older i'm I have my career now.

I have my money.

I have all of these things.

And

this is, and I know this people will probably hear this and say, well, of course you're separate people.

And of course, fine, I'm telling you, I'm, I was for sure calling the shots of like the house and where the money was going to be spent.

And, and I had to look at myself and go,

Right.

We're married.

We're together.

This is our house.

This is our money.

I was like, oh, she's all set up.

She's got all her stuff going on.

It wasn't like I was this like passive person.

I was just sort of like, oh, yeah, buy whatever you want.

Get whatever you want.

And we're in love.

It was natural.

It was, I didn't even think about it.

And then later in this sort of discovery, it was like, what does that mean if you do that?

And that feels weird for me.

And now I'm not, I don't like myself in this.

And I'm so uncomfortable because it goes against everything I actually believe in.

And then I'm like, and by the way, I don't think I've told you everything I believe in.

Let me introduce my new self to you.

And it's all different.

And that's when it became Tawanda.

Yes.

Yeah.

I really am like, you're going to have to be with a brand new person.

But that's also exciting because I'm a brand new person and we continue to each become brand new people and that's great

but there was a huge tawanda uh moment and by the way i am mid-tawanda myself i just told my therapist that the other day um because i was like i think i'm starting to tawanda how i must know

how is tawanda starting to tawanda can somebody explain tawanda to me oh babe

well it's very gay i'm surprised you don't know but on fried green tomatoes um when kathy did you see that of course you never saw watch it this afternoon i'm sorry you never saw it well kathy bates um

uh i how would you describe to

she's in a very terrible marriage and she's like sick of it and she's you know she by the way you were in a terrible marriage you said tawanda i know but i was joking because you were like um

then you had to watch the movie

yeah basically her claiming herself and she's just kind of like fuck it.

I'm like, you know, I'm going to do what, whatever I want.

When her goddamn cheetah comes out, she like slams the car into this jackass who's just parked wrong.

Yeah.

Tawanda.

She just like, yeah.

She releases her.

She shows up for her life and she's pissed off.

I'm Tawandaing right now.

I'm realizing.

Well, I mean, I don't know if I need to go into all of the Tawandaing that.

Just what's happening.

Well, I mean,

on a very serious note, I've had a lot of unsettling things happen in the past few years, and I've lost a lot of grounding people.

Well, I mean, it's it's unearthing to have my spouse go tawanding.

And then, and then

as

I had this guy that cut my hair for 16 years in my house pass away two days before the pandemic, and then the pandemic is unsettling.

My manager of forever got out of the business and I've, I, my stepfather passed away on the anniversary of my mother 10 years later.

I've just felt a little like,

what's happening?

And what the ground underneath me is a little unsteady.

And so it's made me look around.

Like,

what's your role?

What do you do?

Do you make sense in my life?

I need to feel secure right now.

I really need to feel secure.

And in that, I felt like when something doesn't feel right,

I am, and I'm, I'm very confrontational in if I need something or want something.

I'm very forward,

but it's.

Tawandeing.

It's Tawandeing, where I'm like, this does not work for me.

I, in a way that I have not been before, as much as I do the jokes of like, no, I won't test or,

you know, whatever I, that email I sent you, which I don't even remember sending,

but it sounds like me, or the okay dyke moment, I have this other side of me where

I do think I am a nice person and I am, I want things to be okay and nice with people.

And,

but right now I'm going through a place of,

yeah of tawanding and how do people react to your tawandang because i always feel that the aftermoment is what's it's not even the tawandang that's hard that feels good then it's waiting for other people's reaction to your tawanding that makes you be like oh never mind no worries

no

i

I've just, I've just gotten very seriously firm about things, or I've raised my voice in a way that I don't normally.

Like my agent of like 15 years ran into Stephanie at a party and he was like,

I

have not,

he, he was on a

call with me where I was just very firm about something.

Cool.

And, and, uh, and he was like, I've never heard.

Tig like that before.

And I'm like, yeah, I overheard that.

I'm like, neither.

Wow.

So how do you feel about Tawanda Tig?

I love it.

I feel like we're both in a place of like, oh, this is what we value.

This is what we like.

I mean, not necessarily, I don't think we go about it the same way, but just that where you're going, this is really how I feel.

This is really how I see it.

And I don't want my life to not be that.

And so if I keep nodding along or keeping it in or just going, oh, I guess that's how it goes.

then your life is that.

And

that's right.

That's right.

I think we're at an inflection point too in the way that

women work, women in business.

I have spent my whole fucking life just being like, yes, sure, I'll do that.

So grateful for the opportunity.

Thank you so much.

And it's like, you know,

it's half of what I probably could be earning.

And recently, I mean, it took this one because she's...

just stronger than me in terms of holding her boundary, her line for what she believes she's worth.

Yeah, of course.

I mean, look at her.

She towers over her.

We think it's because I lived my whole life as a straight white

Christian middle class.

Like I was like the most entitled of the entitled my whole life.

I just got to a marginalized group.

So when people mistreat me, I'm like, what the fuck?

Like I'm like, we call me Queeran.

Because it's like

the queer Karen.

But really, like she, oh my God.

But it's been interesting because she felt bad about it for a while because she was like, why are you always the one that speaks up?

Right.

But it's because she was in these situations for her whole life when the risk was much higher.

So that tawanding, I think, comes because I had, I was more used to being entitled.

Yeah.

I think a lot of us are in a Tawanda.

I think.

Yeah.

Right now.

It's good.

I am so, so deeply in it.

I love it.

And there are, there is the aftermath of, and I don't know if this is exactly what you're talking about, but there is the aftermath of people

being stunned

at our production company, our creative executive who used to be our assistant years ago.

He's worked with us forever now.

But I was talking to him about it.

And

he said, you don't have to apologize.

Or

he said, those are real emotions and feelings.

And although I know that it was, it was nice to hear it because

I just, the circus, I'm finished with.

I'm very finished with it is nice when men and women are both like, yeah, that's cool.

And you know what?

I actually liked that because I do think it's that thing with women where you, if a woman, you tell a woman to do something, she says, no,

it's like, wow, she's difficult.

Whoa, she's crazy.

What a bitch.

And you you see a guy go, no, I'm not doing that.

And they're like, he's so smart.

Oh my God, he's so strong.

Knows what he wants.

I love that guy.

And like, I feel like I've noticed with women now, even like other actors, or I'm like, I love that you're just like, no,

it's the best.

It's so freeing when somebody else does it.

Yeah.

You're like, oh, I can do that.

Yeah.

It's an invitation to all the other.

But there's also

plenty of people that are on

ego trips and power trips that also do it, that do it, that are not what I'm talking about.

And I'm not talking about the power ego tripping people that do this.

That's a whole different thing.

I'm talking about just

really,

really getting in tune with what you want.

I am so obsessed with the things that I don't want to.

That's meaning I love learning.

I don't want this.

I don't want this in my life.

I don't want this.

And I love that when it rears its head as much as I find something like Stephanie, where I'm like, I want this.

This is what I will work

and live for.

And this is that side of it.

And then there's this where I'm like, oh, am I thrilled that I

know that I don't want that?

I do not want that.

That's right.

And it all feeds into Tawanda.

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What's an example for each of you of something you've discovered that is, I don't want that?

Well, I know mine is totally linked to that I like coming into my sexuality because a friend of mine who is married to a man

who identifies as queer.

And I'm like, so what does that mean?

Queer, because queer, I never quite, I'm like, am I queer?

Can I say I'm like, are we all queer?

And she was like, queer is just other.

So queer is anything other than the heteronormative patriarchal paradigm.

And so if she's like, I want to be other in my writing.

I want to be other in my parenting.

I want to be other in my relationship.

Whatever it is, I don't want that.

I want other.

And I feel like I'm like, ah, that's what I want.

I don't want the way this goes.

I don't want the like, we're falling into roles.

We're playing this out.

I want to know in every moment what I'm actually feeling, what I actually think.

And then that is my reality.

Yes.

Queer is like, they give you a menu.

And instead of choosing, you just return the menu.

All of everything.

Yeah, you just,

defer choice.

I think about that all the time in terms of faith, all of it, like queer faith, queer gender, queer art, queer relationships, all of it.

So good.

Yeah.

What about you, Tig?

What do you not want?

Not this.

There's so many things, creative

things,

and

people in the creative world that I have

had too much patience for.

And there's a lot of creative stuff that I've been open to because I do think it's important to try new things out.

But there's so much creative

that I've learned.

That's not for me.

And I don't want to spend my time doing that.

And just there are people that I am okay

with.

with.

I'm not looking for a battle with them, but they're not for me.

And

I'm okay with cutting that loose and

being friendly,

perfectly friendly when I see them, but they're not for me.

And

I'm not interested.

in the world that surrounds them.

And

I'm good with that.

And I also,

I just want to be comfortable.

I want to be safe and comfortable and healthy.

I feel that.

I feel all of that.

Queer, comfortable, safe.

Glennon, what don't you want?

Yeah, what do you guys not want?

Well, I mean, I think I have found, you know, we go to some, we'll go to like a get-together with people and they're all talking about like climbing this hamster wheel more, more, more.

I don't want to have a life where I'm constantly thinking that happiness or success is like one

great project or deal or connection away.

I'm obsessed right now with figuring out like what is enough

and not and just stopping.

There's this frantic climb to nowhere.

And I'm climbing to hell.

It's not to nowhere.

You're absolutely climbing to hell because people are so blinded by fame, fortune,

power.

When it gets into the right hands, you have incredible people.

And then when you get, when that gets into the wrong hands, it is

astounding the monsters.

And I'm always like,

People will say, does it frustrate you when you hear that she or they or whoever is getting?

And I'm like, no, keep feeding that monster.

Yes.

Let them have it all.

Let him have it all.

It would be one thing if you could see anything that looked like joy or peace or happiness on that side because I am always looking at for that.

You know, like a particular table we were at recently, and everybody was just talking about what's next and what's bigger and who's doing what.

I said, Well, how do you know when you've done it?

How do you know when you've done the thing?

Yeah.

And then also, are you happy?

And it was like, it was like, well, we're not talking about that.

Yeah.

You know, and it's sort of like that feeling too.

I mean, especially in the arts or entertainment, you're doing the thing you love.

Like you're the person that has got to do the thing they love.

And so isn't that amazing?

And isn't it amazing that we're all here doing this really fun thing with each other?

Trying to get everybody on that page is so challenging.

It's so challenging.

And it's, and look, I love, we both, I'll speak for myself.

I love working.

I love what I do.

I love it, but I am not looking to just fill my calendar.

Stephanie and I have a production company and we do things together.

And that excites me so much, writing, creating, producing, acting.

We do all of those things together and have over the years.

And we have so much, everybody is like, oh, God, what was that like working with your wife?

It was incredible.

It was incredible.

It was so fun.

And we're both so sad when we go to a set and the other one is not there.

We're looking for more people like us.

Yeah.

We love working together.

We love it.

And we love working on our projects.

And so that they're labors of love.

And again,

I've done plenty of things outside of what we create together.

Stephanie makes fun of me because when, you know, how on

projects or sets, people are like, I'm not here to make friends.

And I'm like, I'm only here to make friends.

That is the only thing I'm here to do.

I might not, you might not be,

you know, I might pick up something weird about you, but I'm not necessarily going to be friends, best friends with everyone, but I am here to have a good time.

I want to be laughing

on set and enjoying myself.

That's so,

so crucial to me is to

enjoy what I'm doing and feel like there's a positive message to the project or there's

good people involved in it.

Of course,

it's hit or miss out there, but that's what I'm going in for.

That's really, really what I'm in.

And something I heard Marion Williamson say that I think about almost daily is she was like, it's great when you go about life in a way that's like, it's a really big fucking deal.

And then at the same time, big fucking deal.

And both are at the same time.

So it's like, you can't be that forceful to the top.

And you want the money and you want this.

And then it's, you know, and if you don't get it, you're miserable.

It kind of all has to exist at the same time.

Yeah.

I always, yeah, I always say nothing matters.

And it's devastating.

But also, nothing matters.

But, oh,

nothing matters.

Man, nothing matters?

Nothing matters.

But nothing matters, Glennon.

But nothing matters.

But nothing matters.

So do it.

Take the risk.

But just remember, nothing matters.

But if the risk works out, just remember.

Nothing matters.

Yeah.

Actually, that's quite freeing.

Yeah.

That's going to be the title of this double date.

Nothing matters.

Nothing matters.

It just doesn't matter.

It's not going to be Tawandi.

No, it's for sure going to be Tawandi.

But and wait, Abby, what would you,

what do you want?

Thanks, Stephanie.

Sorry.

So the question is, what do I not want?

I

choose to live a life without chaos.

And

that's good.

It's difficult with three children.

Truly,

because a lot of that can feel chaotic in moments.

but I don't seek chaos.

I was a seeker of chaos for many years of my life.

And peace is kind of what I'm after.

So if I were to say what I don't want, it would be chaos.

And there's a few things that I have to do every single day to achieve, like to have a knowing of that groundingness.

Like it's like working out.

It's drinking coffee in the morning.

It's.

you know, making sure I'm staying connected with my wife.

Like those kind of three elements, like seriously, coffee is that important to me it rises to that top um but do you have a mug that says don't even talk to me until i've had my coffee it's implied it's it's there is just no communication for the first 20 minutes of wakeness no that's right we don't even talk to each other no no we'll talk to the dogs yeah how old are your babies now you have two little boys right Twin six-year-olds.

They're six already.

They just turned six.

What is that like?

And what's the best thing and what's the worst thing, and how has it changed things?

Do you dress them the same?

No,

they dress themselves and they look like maybe they don't have parents, yeah, sure.

They're very into their clothes, yeah.

Uh, well, you wouldn't know it.

Nothing matters,

nothing matters.

I feel like I become a cliche, annoying parent when I talk about them because

they have

their

little moments,

but

they're so

great.

So great.

They're so great.

And

anytime we find ourselves getting caught up in, you know, oh, this one always forgets to do this, or this one gets frustrated with this, or this is their little struggle with their dynamic.

They are not

difficult children.

And they're so loving and protective of each other.

We cannot reprimand one

without the other one

getting so upset with us.

That is my brother.

That is my brother.

Don't say that.

Don't say that.

Even when they're the ones that was mad.

Yeah.

You come in and then they turn, they both just turn on you.

Turn on you.

And you're just like, okay,

you guys got to figure this out yourselves then, which is pretty much what they do for the most part.

It's that thing where you just look at them and you're like, oh my God, how are you this little person in the world?

And look at your little watch and your shorts and you're, it's just like, you're about to use it.

Did you put pants on them every day?

Yes.

That was our big dream.

I was just like, oh, gosh, I just want to put little pants on someone.

And you know what's like, I know your guys' kids are so much older, but like at this age, and they're, they haven't started kindergarten yet.

They're about to start, but just their pure joy and the way they run toward their friends at school and they hug each other and they go, I love you.

And they're like, I love you.

And just, he's my friend and she's my, and it's like, I look at that and I go, I feel that way.

about people and the world, but I would be crazy, you know, like that, just being able to express yourself and everybody just go, yeah, this is great.

Yeah.

If you do that your whole life, you don't have to Tawanda.

Right.

Totally.

Exactly.

But I haven't lost track.

Tawandaing is kind of, it's kind of fun.

Yeah.

It's really, it's really freeing to Tawanda.

Kathy Bates was standing in front of me at the airport,

like maybe five people in front of me.

And I considered

telling her I was mid-Tawanda.

But then I just thought, oh, she hears that all the time.

And I can't be another person that does the.

And she's like, actually, I've never heard that.

Kathy, I'm mid.

I'm Tawandaing.

Oh, I hope she calls in and tells us.

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What do you guys fight about?

Yeah.

Because it feels like you guys, I mean, do you have arguments?

What do you think?

I was saying before.

I was like, we've got plenty of issues and problems.

And

a lot of them we've worked through and a lot of them continue to rear their heads.

Yeah.

But we have like our ones we've really

figured out.

And then we have the ones ones that we really do every time.

Yeah, what are the ones you do every time?

We've got like three in the bank that we just keep coming back to.

I know they're like old files where it's like, should we pull out that old file?

And just we know what's in there, but should we pull out the old file?

A friend of mine that I grew up with, we also have old files where I'm like old jokes or stories.

And we've been friends since we were children and we moved out here to Los Angeles together.

And we have stories that we've told each other a million times because we grew up together and we had those stories together.

We lived it together.

And one of us will bring out the old file and start telling a story.

And then the other one will

say, wait, do you know this?

And the other one will say, Absolutely, but please tell it again.

And then, and we won't stop each other.

And we'll be, okay, well, and so, and we know the story by heart.

And it's the same thing with our issues.

Well, and that's what's so weird.

Don't interrupt me, right?

Oh, that's our issue.

Let's do that file.

It's weird where we're at now, kind of once you acknowledge, like, oh, we don't fight well around this one.

Like, this one is going to, and like the other night.

was such a weird one because we were going toward one of our fights and it's not even like one of our fights it's just like this is going to turn into our fight this is it's just something triggers here we go and i'm like and I said, I was like, okay, I don't want to do this right now because I'm going to get really mad.

And then I'm not going to be able to get off of it.

And then you're going to say this.

And it's just going to end in a wall.

And I don't feel like doing it right now.

And it was like, so grown up.

And you're like, I don't even recognize you right now.

I don't even know.

I said, so you just, you're just not even going to head over there.

You're just going to stop.

I'm so mad.

Of course that I'm mad about that.

Of course, I'm so mad about that.

So I don't know what to say.

Yeah.

That's so good.

We should really try that.

It feels like you're on a roller coaster.

It's like,

yeah.

But there's nothing you can do.

You're strapping.

You're there for the whole damn ride.

You triggered it.

And it's like, you got on.

One time, we one time we were having an argument early in our, probably in our first year

in our relationship.

And

we still use this technique to get out of an argument.

70.

We were both upset.

And I think she was maybe locked into maybe yelling at me or something at the moment.

This, she was like,

I was coming at me verbally.

And then

I

mid argument, I just wandered off to the window.

and just put my hands against the glass and I started singing an impromptu musical.

And I was like, There was a time.

And I just started singing about all the good times we used to have and before things went awry.

And Stephanie started laughing so hard.

And so now we'll sing musicals to each other when things get really tense.

And

it pulls us out of those moments.

And what we're working on now

is

following up after,

well i'm still

no restaurant that issue's still there so

we can pull each other out another thing that stephanie does that will pull me out of

is when she's driving me insane which has only happened once of course but um uh i'll be so frustrated that I can't see.

And then she'll start pointing to her wedding ring, like, you got got me for life.

I'm yours.

Here's the one you picked.

I'm the one you picked.

And then that makes me laugh so hard.

And we also joke about when we're in an argument, we'll talk about how,

well, I'm legally bound to you.

I signed a contract.

And so I guess.

We've got to work this out because we are contractually bound to this situation.

Okay, this is brilliant though, because we've only focused on the things to get us out of it.

Yeah.

But we haven't focused on the then coming back.

Because if you only focus on the whole life would have to turn into a musical if you never talk about the thing.

Oh, I have to tell you one more thing that gets us out of an argument.

That actually, we haven't done this in a while.

It's so funny.

There was a meme or something that you sent me

where a guy was driving a car and then his dog was in the passenger seat and had its paw on

the

both facing forward.

No, they're not looking at each other.

Right.

And I think I've told you that it gets me out of the situation where if somebody will just touch me in an argument,

I can talk better if she just reaches out and touches me.

And so she sent me that meme of the guy driving and his dog just having its paw.

And so sometimes when we've had arguments, Stephanie will kind of mimic the dog and put her paw on me.

Or like so mad and she's so mad and then she'll put her paw on me

and then it makes me laugh or it like makes brings you back to reality.

It brings me back to reality.

I think that that would help for you.

I do too, because it's not about the thing.

It's about panic.

It's about like abandonment.

But it's a connection.

And

that touch, when Stephanie reach out and touch me, I'm like, okay, we're, we're, we're together.

And it is that thing of like, it's so not what you're talking about.

It's like, this is bothering me because I have all these things.

We've done couples therapy in the past.

And I think there's certain things where you have to kind of give it over to someone else because you're going to, you're in your thing.

I think a breaking point for us, and I actually love this moment so much, was we were in like a really big fight.

And

and we both like at a point we're like okay we got to get done with this fight and we both

we both were like well i'm not sorry and she's like i'm not sorry either wow

and we both were like okay yeah we're different we see this completely differently and i cannot

do that one.

And she's like, I cannot do that one.

And so I felt like that was really a great moment because at least nobody's going toward their thing and being like, okay,

you're sorry.

So interesting to me because I'm abandoning yourself.

I am always looking for you to be sorry.

Yes, you are.

And then I have to lie.

Yeah.

She's never sorry.

I'm like, do you actually feel shocked?

I'll say, I'm sorry.

And she'll go, do you feel sorry?

And I'm like, well, we're lying anyway.

Do you want me to actually tell you that I feel sorry?

No, I don't.

It's like, this is my opinion very deeply.

I thought you were going to talk about how I remember one time after an argument and look we're not arguing all the time but one percent of the time yeah this is a one percent of our one of the times that we argued i came back in the room i thought you were going to talk about this and i said

we just got in big trouble

and uh and that's how it felt it felt like

wow we

we misbehaved there

you know we just yes i get that it felt it felt like a parent would would have been like, whoa, you two.

Yeah.

And so we do reference that still, where after we'll have an argument, we'll be like, we just got in big trouble.

And that'll break tension too.

And I feel our couples therapist told us this, which I loved so much.

It is in the way of like, okay, if you're not going to say you're sorry, but go up to the person and go, how can I help?

And just how simple that is.

It's like, clearly, you're not okay.

And so as a person, how can I help you?

What can I do to make you feel okay?

And what can I do to make you feel okay?

I love it.

I feel like we've been talking for four minutes.

I know.

I feel like we didn't get through anything.

We didn't.

We didn't.

We have 18.

We have like so much more that we want to talk about.

We love you too.

We love you guys.

I'm just so grateful to have met you.

And I would love to meet your little boy sometime.

Well, that's not possible, but thank you.

See, Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ.

You walked right into it.

And I don't care who's giving you a signal.

We're not finished.

But I do want to

take a moment to acknowledge how thankful we are for

what you both do

for the world and the greater good.

And I

feel so strongly about,

you know, putting your time and money and power and influence into

your beliefs.

And I think that you both do that beyond measure.

And I

am so,

so thankful for that.

Well, just real quick, you know, you have to go, but how do you figure out what you're going to care about?

I mean, I'm just going to say this to the pod squad.

Tig and Stephanie just gave a shit ton of money.

I don't know if I'm allowed to say it, but like, because,

I know you weren't saying it because of that.

No, no, no, no, I, no, I absolutely am.

I want people to know.

No, no, no, no, that's not why I'm saying.

I'm truly, I remember Stephanie talking to me about

what you do, both of you, and how activated you are.

And that drew me.

I was so

blown away.

And I fully believe that if you have a problem with something don't complain about it

do something yeah donate money lift a finger and and help people and how do we know i mean it's funny to talk earlier about

um

nothing matters um

but Of course, I think everything matters and I care about everything.

And I think that

there's just different ways that you can activate yourself, whether it's showing up in person for people or

giving your money in ways and towards things that you can't physically get to.

I don't know.

Do you make a decision what you care about?

I mean, yeah, we have to because

We,

there's so many heartbreaking things constantly going on in the world.

So you do kind of have to figure out what's breaking the world's heart and go towards certain things.

You gave all the proceeds to the New York City Beacon Theater event to those suffering in Ukraine through Together Rising.

So how do you two figure out with all, I mean, because people are asking us this all the time, like with all the heartbreaking things in the world, it's just easy to shut down and do nothing

since you can't do it all.

So how do you decide?

You know, what's interesting about you guys and Together Rising is like when when everything was happening at that time it had just started in ukraine it's like there's a trust in you guys of like they're feeling what we're feeling

so they're gonna put the money in the place that goes toward what we're all feeling and it's not gonna be because it's coming from a place of like feeling and and when you can connect to that then you go oh okay then i have trust in together rising because i know the people behind it are just trying to figure it out.

And that's where the trust is.

Intention is so crucial.

And

I think that we trust the intention behind

your organization.

I think all the time,

let's say you both despise me, or you don't like my comedy, or you took all of my joking seriously.

I don't care.

i'm still going to give you my money you know i do not care what you think about me because if i think you have good intentions and you are going to be

um

doing something incredible and powerful with that money

great

great

We just love you guys so much for it.

I mean, we were floored and it's not often that people step up like the way that you do.

And the way and and the thing why togetherizing works so well is that it's usually just very minimal donations.

I think what they, what's the average?

$31, $35.

$31.

That's what's so cool about it.

I think we're at $40 million.

And it's incredible.

Because that's what matters.

All these people that have a little, a little bit.

Right.

And we tend to think that change is for people who have a lot.

And that's not actually ever been true in the history of the world.

Right.

You all are magic.

Thank you so much for being here here in the world.

For everything, but seriously, let's meet in person.

I know it would be so great.

We want to meet your guys as kids.

Love to the boys, love to the three cats.

Thanks.

Same to you.

And just good luck with everything.

We just, we just love you.

We love who you are in the world.

And to all the rest of you people listening, we will see you next time on We Can Do Hard Things.

Yes.

Bye.

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