89. Enneagram: What does your number say about you? with Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober

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Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

Hi, Dave.

Oh, this is going to be so exciting.

How are you?

I'm very good.

I'm very good.

And I'm very excited about this specific episode.

Okay.

So here's what happened.

We put something out on the Instagram that said, please tell us who you want to hear from.

on We Can Do Hard Things because it's super important to us that this is a conversation that you're telling us what you want to talk about.

We're telling you what we want to talk about and that it's a back and forth.

So

33,000 comments later,

literally, it was so amazing.

It made me so emotional that day that so because two things happened.

First of all, Pod Squatter said, here's a really important person in my life who's helped me and who is smart and kind and thoughtful and funny.

And please meet my friend whomever.

or my expert whomever or which is so beautiful to me i freaking love it when people go out on a limb to like hook up their friend.

Or the second thing that happened was that people would be like,

okay, hi, this is really scary for me, but me, you should talk to me.

Yeah.

I'm really smart and good at what I do, and you all should talk to me.

We have a treasure trove now of people who are doing amazing, beautiful work in their families or their professional lives or wherever that now we get to choose from for the rest of our podcast lives.

Repeatedly, a lot of of people asked us to do an episode on the Enneagram.

And a lot of those people asked us to talk to

Enneagram Ashton.

Okay.

Okay.

So first of all, I want to say a couple things.

One, we don't really understand the freaking Enneagram.

So we've had very little experience with this, but we did do our research, some research before this.

So we have kind of ideas of what we are.

I have 20 years of confused research right so we're glad to have an expert right and i resented the enneagram for the last week because i really really don't like to be labeled and then i found out the first thing that my little number said was that these people really resist labeling and they feel misunderstood often so anyway let us

Please introduce to the We Can Do Hard Things family, someone you requested.

And her name is is Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober, and she's a professor, author, public speaker, community psychologist, and certified Enneagram educator.

She created Enneagram Ashton in early 2019, and she's the author of Enneagram for Relationships, The Two of Us, a Three-Year Couples Journal.

We need to do that one too.

Yeah, for sure.

Okay.

And the Enneagram Made Simple, which just published in January.

You can find her on Instagram at Enneagram Ashton.

Ashton, hi.

Hi.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm super excited to be here.

Glennon, you are one of my top three like idols in my life.

I'm not joking.

I just want you to know how much of an impact you've had on my life.

I went through a divorce when I was 25.

One thing that you said, like it's brave if you leave, it's brave if you stay, just always stuck with me.

And your little reminders about you've watched my descent now get ready for the rising.

If you would have told 25-year-old Ashton, who was posting things that Glennon Doyle was saying on Facebook so many years ago,

that I would be sitting here with you, it just is a very cool.

thing.

So so much love to you.

Thanks for having me on.

And I'm honored to be able to share this information with your community.

You are so welcome.

Actually, I wanted to circle back because Ashton said you're one of her top three.

So I assume Ashton, the other two are at me.

Of course.

Of course.

Okay.

Okay.

Ashton, what

WTF is the Enneagram?

The Enneagram is really an ancient personality typing system that has been around for like 2,000 to 4,000 years.

It's really, really old.

It started in the Middle East and then has like creeped its way over to the U.S.

really in the 60s, 70s with technology and social media.

It has really just taken off immensely in the past several years because of that ability to share knowledge and want to really understand each other.

So it's a typing system similar to other things like Myers-Briggs, Strength Finders, the five love languages, where it separates people into types.

But the biggest difference being that it's about what motivates our behaviors.

So it's not about our behaviors.

So the three of you could be doing the same exact thing, but having completely different motivations.

Okay.

Wow.

Okay.

Just got it.

I did.

I did.

I just got it.

Okay.

So because I did.

We've been talking about this for a week straight.

Weeks.

So we're all three of us are here

on this podcast doing this interview and having this job, but all three of us are here for different reasons.

And when I say three, I know you're here also, Ashton.

I'm just talking about me and Abby and sister.

Okay.

So let's figure that out by the end of this hour.

Like why the hell, based on our numbers, we are here doing this.

Oh, that's good.

But can you tell us, Ashton, just...

One of the things I love about it, it's also very relational.

It's not just about who I am.

It's about how I interact with other people.

How do we know ourselves so that we can know how better to interact with our people?

Yes.

Absolutely.

And that is honestly why I gravitated towards the Enneagram.

It's why I am obsessed with it and have adopted it as a career because I just want people to understand each other.

I want people to really be able to understand, oh, when this person does this thing that might annoy me.

I know why,

what's going into that motivation or what's going into the reason why they do that.

I love it.

Can you go through, Ashton, just not in, you know, a long way, but just tell us there's nine types, right?

Yes.

Can you briefly tell us, because I want everybody who's listening to kind of, I know nobody can figure out their type just on a podcast, but just give us like a little ditty about each one

so people can kind of try to find themselves.

Yes.

So remember I said that the Enneagram is about motivations.

And so those motivations are made up of your biggest fears and your biggest desires.

So each type has a fear that they relate to or a few fears that they relate to, and then, you know, what they really want in life.

So the Enneagram one is called the reformer.

Their biggest fear is being seen as a bad person or not doing things the right way.

with their biggest desire then to be seen as a good person, to be moral, ethical, right in what they do.

Enneagram two is the helper.

That's me.

So their biggest desire is to be loved, wanted, appreciated, with their biggest fear being unloved, unwanted, unappreciated, really just like not needed.

Enneagram threes are the achiever.

So their biggest fear is typically failure.

So they fear failure the most, but they also fear being seen as incompetent or incapable of doing something.

With their biggest desire being they want to be successful, they want to be respected.

They want to be seen as being able to get the job done.

Fours

are the individualists.

Their biggest desire is to create significance.

They want to create meaning.

They want to be different or set apart in some way, but their biggest fear is that they are defective or like something's wrong with them.

So they want to be different, but they don't want to be defective.

Moving right along, number five.

Yes.

The five is the investigator.

Their biggest fear is not being knowledgeable or being seen as ignorant.

And then their biggest desire is to really just know all the things, gain all the research, and to be seen as competent and knowledgeable.

Sixes are the loyalist.

Their biggest fear is typically fear itself.

So they have a really strong relationship with fear.

But they also fear being without support, security, or guidance, with then their biggest desire to have that support, guidance, and security from the people around them, their environment, their relationships, things like that.

Sevens, they're the enthusiast.

They're the most extroverted on the Enneagram.

Their biggest desire is to have fun, right?

But they also are seeking contentment.

So they do all of the things because they're looking for that contentment.

And then their biggest fear, they do fear missing out.

So they do have that FOMO, but they really fear being trapped in emotional pain or negativity.

So then they don't want to have the hard discussions and they'll turn on to the positive side of things to avoid those negative things.

The eight is the challenger.

And so their biggest fear is being seen as weak, powerless, or controlled in some way with their biggest desire to protect themselves and other people.

And then nines, the peacemaker.

Their biggest fear is conflict.

So they hate all conflict.

They avoid all conflict with their biggest desire being to maintain a peaceful environment.

Awesome.

What I love about this,

this whole Enneagram, is that it isn't like a box.

Like you're, here's your nine boxes and you're in it.

What I love about it is that it has, and it's not, it's not static.

Here's what you are and always what you're going to be.

It just answers that question, at least speaking for myself that I always have, which is like, why do I always do what I do?

Why am I always like this?

It kind of shows you your passion and your virtue, right?

You can look at it and see who you are based on your kind of fixed patterns of what you do over and over again.

But it also understanding it shows you what your real gifts are because all nine of these have beautiful, beautiful gifts in them that if you're able to see your pattern and kind of have compassion for yourself to understand, oh, that's why I always do that.

And look at your partner or look at your friends and and say, oh, that's why you always do that.

Cause it's coming from this motivation that is ultimately about fulfilling who you are.

It just, it's just not,

it's not my

gift.

It's not what my purpose is.

And so often we miss each other.

It's a cool system to kind of have compassion for yourself and for everyone else.

Yeah, absolutely.

Ooh, compassion builder.

It allows us to get to the business.

Compassion builder.

It really is.

It allows us to get closer to each other in, especially for those of us who are a little bit scared of too much vulnerability.

It gives us a little bit, a teeny bit of structure that makes us feel A, less alone and B, more capable because it's information, information to be able to connect.

I can speak for Glendon and I, like, this is totally.

up our alley.

Like we are totally in on this.

We're very excited, but it's also very kind of confusing because for me, I have like three that i scored pretty high on and like that feels like well which one is it could it be yeah the third the second the first so i saw your results abby and like you score high for seven three and two which um are all part of what we call the optimist yeah triad sevens threes and twos they all have very similar characteristics where they are optimists they do tend to look on the bright side and have that energy and and you know like to get things done it is just about the motivation so are you doing that to be seen as successful to

search for contentment yes or because you are wanting to be loved by other people you know so again very similar characteristics nine stereotypically hate conflict the most but they're that doesn't mean that other people love conflict.

Like I hate conflict.

I'm sure you do, Abby, because you're in that section.

But it just means that that's not your main motivation for doing something.

So let's fascinate when you think about it that way.

Yeah, let's start with Abby since we jumped in with Abby.

Okay.

So Abby took the test.

I know you're not supposed to take a test, but we did some tests.

Okay.

We did some tests because we were preparing.

I always tell people you can find out a lot of information, but like all of you saw, you scored high for a lot of different types.

And so what you can do then is kind of just do the research.

And we are a society that loves people to tell us who we are and not have to figure it out on our own.

But that's the true and only way to really figure out your type is to sit with those main desires and those main fears and look at, look inward and see what sits with you.

Yes.

So I want to tell you one thing that I think is the first time.

That's the part that I have always been missing in my life.

I'm like, the test is telling me something and great, I believe it.

And then that's it.

I've been doing Enneagram tests without the research for 20 years.

Oh, really?

Yes, I've been doing it since college.

Can you tell Ashton why?

you kept getting three and this is the first time you've ever really gotten your real number please share with ashton yeah so um interestingly enough i've always seen myself as a three three, as like the achiever, the performer.

And now I've been, I'm seeing myself more as a complete seven, as the enthusiast.

And I think the big reason is, is because I was taking the tests with who I wanted to be

more than who I have been throughout the whole of my life.

And I, of course, we have traits in all parts of all of these Enneagrams.

all the types.

But

as an athlete, I had to, it was like literally mind over matter.

So I had to see myself as this, this achiever because I wanted to be one of the best in the world.

And I wanted to be a part of a team that was winning championships.

And part of the whole shebang there is like, you got to sometimes fake it until you make it.

You got to believe it before it's actually even true.

You have to like believe it into existence.

And so the irony is now I'm five, six years out.

This is the first time I've taken the test since retiring.

Without cheating.

she would look at pictures at questions and say what would a three say here would an achiever how would they answer this question and then that's how she would answer it and i understand that

because i

really didn't want to be a four

okay because fours i feel like are whiny and annoying so i

answered the question

as if i were the leader As if I were fierce and as if I were an I think an eight.

An eight.

So Abby has been getting threes and i've been getting eights yeah all the time because we know how to beat an enneagram test yeah we're smart okay right so in preparation for this podcast is the first time we've ever been honest sister tell us about your experience with the enneagram this time around um

i am a three like i just what everything i read i'm like god

damn like it's just it just is and i and then i read about some of the other ones ones and I get like so jealous because it really is like a way that you are.

Like it's undeniable that that is who I am.

And,

but

it does give you compassion for yourself because I see like that is the way I view the world and how like opportunity.

So what's the three?

Achievement, opportunity to improve.

Everything can be improved.

You see, you see anything that is good and you think, how could that have been better?

You just want to like achieve the highest level and that comes from love.

Like when I,

when I am integrated, like when I am at my healthiest,

I, all of my work is sacred work.

Threes are very much related to like

working and output and achievement and success.

So all of my work can be sacred work and it's all really a gift of love.

So there can become an effortlessness in threes because you can, all of your work, when it's flowing from your love, feels natural and right to you.

But when I'm disintegrated, when I'm in stress, all of my love is flowing from the work.

So in health, I'm, I love and this work flows from my love.

And then in stress, it's I work

and my worthiness flows from my work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you feel only worthy based on your work.

Right.

Work gives you your worthiness.

Right.

And any kind of achievement, any kind of success, any kind of from

stuff in my home, stuff in my family, stuff, outward things,

you know, with degrees and straight A's and whatever it is.

It's like that is my way of communicating

my love.

So, but it becomes a tricky place for threes because at least for me, I'm running around thinking I'm doing my life's purpose and I am loving my people to death.

And it looks like I'm going around just haranguing them with constant critiques because I'm trying to make everything better.

You're trying to optimize everything.

Is that what it is?

You're trying to like,

but so you're trying to improve your people.

Is that what a three can look like in their, in their homes?

Ashton, do you see that?

Is it like the achiever is trying to change things so much that it makes people feel like they're loving them to death?

There's always a goal, right?

Yeah.

There's always a goal.

Everything has a goal.

There's always a goal and there's always like efficiency.

I'm going to

do this the best way that I can.

And I'm going to expect that other people are also going to do that.

And then if they don't, right?

Like that's, that's where the knowledge of this comes into play, because there are a lot of people who don't think that way or who aren't as hardworking maybe as threes or aren't as goal results focused as threes are.

And

people then don't understand how they couldn't be that way.

It could be tough in a relationship.

It's like, it's like love, right?

Yeah.

It looks like love.

Yeah, so for threes, it looks like if I do this, then people will love and respect me for doing this.

And then if I don't have a job to do, or if I don't have a mile-long to-do list, then I must not be loved by people.

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Is it true that the reverse can be true?

Because if I'm expressing my care by working toward a goal, then if I see other people, expressing their care in a different way, which is just maybe just being

or enjoying or relaxing.

I experience that as a lack of care.

If you cared as much as I cared, you would be trying to get this for us the way I'm trying to get this for us.

Yes, that's right, Sissy.

Well, actually, what happens with you?

Can you explain a little bit?

Each of us has a type, and when we are at our best and we are at our worst, it kind of brings out different.

Can you explain that?

The security points and

the stress points.

Yeah.

So each type has a different number that we go to when we're in stress and then a different number that we go to when we're in growth.

And really, it looks like you go to the high number, the high side of your number in growth and like the not so great characteristics of the type when you're in stress.

So what that looks like is, you know, for ones,

when they're stressed, they will go to that low side of a four.

and so that can look like internalizing your emotions throwing themselves a pity party like kind of like nobody understands me nobody gets me do sister where would she go in stress where would she go in strength threes get so overwhelmed by all of the things that they need to do that they just don't do any of them.

And that looks like going to the low side of a nine.

So they have a difficult time getting started, almost become like paralyzed at and overwhelmed at all of the things

and become procrastinators and just are going along to get along.

Do you feel that, Sissy?

I don't think I've ever seen sister not do things.

I have felt myself

emotionally do that.

I'm still doing the things,

but the kind of like

excitement and and drive that is normally inside me is dead

but i'm still doing all of the things but without the kind of joy where it where it's just

where it's just like

just grinding through it but without the kind of usual i am working towards a goal because that that goal is so attractive and exciting and wonderful to have.

It's more just like head down, just grinding.

And so emotionally,

I am there with would you say like numbing out almost?

Oh,

yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Okay.

So where does she go then in strength?

Yeah, so then threes will take on the really positive characteristics of a six.

And that will look like being very community and relationship oriented,

focused on others' success and like getting them to that place that they're wanting to go.

It also looks like being extremely prepared and responsible and just really loyal to their people.

their relationships, their environment, things like that.

How does a three look in conflict, in a relationship, like say in a partnership, a marriage, a relationship?

What might a three bring to conflict that is helpful or hurtful?

And theoretically, what if that three had

almost zero peacemaker in them, had almost zero nine in them, and say theoretically they were partnered with a solid nine.

Okay, so theoretically, Ashton, like what would that look like?

So threes in general,

when any

sort of emotional conflict occurs, they do numb out like emotionally.

But when it comes to wanting to deal with the conflict, they view it as a task, right?

So they're very task-oriented.

So they want to check it off the list and move on.

So they want to deal with it.

I imagine if there's a nine that's in conflict who's actively not dealing with it, that that can cause some tension there because threes want it to be over and handled.

That doesn't at all sound familiar.

What's a pointer for a three whose life has become unmanageable?

Yeah.

So threes really struggle with saying no

because they want to prove that they can do all of the things.

So that is a huge piece for them.

Also really getting

strong on your identity, who you are apart from the work that you're doing.

Because so many threes, again, like we talked about, tie their worth, their value into what they're doing and oftentimes don't know, they aren't secure in that value aside from that.

Oh, does that sound familiar, sissy or no?

No.

How do we love threes?

How does the rest of the numbers love threes well?

Because if

I think for me,

it can feel when you're, I would say partnered with, I'm partnered with sissy in all of life, right?

So when you're partnered with a three and you are not a three,

you can kind of feel almost defensive, like I'm not doing enough all the time.

If I'm not matching that level of intensity, then I'm not being enough.

And that can become defensiveness where you're trying to prove yourself to that person when all that person, what I think what I've learned with sister even before the Enneagram,

is that she actually doesn't need for me to work as hard as she is or be as intense as she is to prove my love to her.

She actually needs me just to tell her how valuable she is.

That's literally what I was about to say.

Oh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they need

that.

They need that constant reassurance that they're valuable without doing the things, but they also want to be celebrated for the things that they're doing.

So they really do appreciate validation.

They love to be celebrated.

They love to be told that they're doing a good job, you you know, like all of those things.

But what's interesting is that, you know, you had said that you feel

like you're not enough, but she also feels like she's not enough.

And so I think just sitting in that similarity that you feel like you're not enough for different reasons.

And just remembering that as you approach a three, remembering that they do tie that value into what they're doing and just reassuring that you do love and care about them and that you don't care at all what they get done on their to-do list today that you just care about them

sister i care about you so much and i think you're doing a great job

i love whatever you want to do we have a question from a three and i just would love ashton for you to field this one for us hi this is dawn i'm just going through a time in my life and a path I've never walked before.

I can really relate to sister and all of

the energy and passion that she puts into her work and job in the corporate type of sense.

And I've been that person.

I'm a type 3 Enneagram.

I'm an achiever and a performer and I got a lot out of work all of my life.

And now I am completely burnt out.

I gave everything to work and I've just reached a tipping point where I've needed to take time off work and I'm on leave and it's scary for me because when I have the performer type side of me I feel like I'm letting other people down and when you have burnout

and other complicating factors

how do you tell yourself that you're worth the time off

and that you're more than your job when

giving a sense of purpose and giving back to your community and performing is also a big part of you.

So I'm just really struggling with that.

I'm struggling with which part is my true identity and that's who I am

and which part of it is something that needs to heal.

I would love your points of view and thank you.

Well, I think first of all,

it's important to remember that

that

achieving side does not always connect to a job, right?

That there are a lot of different ways in life that we want to achieve things.

I have people who are stay-at-home moms who are like, I can't possibly be a three because I don't have a corporate job.

I think it's important to remember that those stereotypes exist, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

And so for Dawn, I just want you to

really just focus in on who you are and what you want in this next chapter of life, because your worth and your value is not tied to the job that you're taking leave from.

And

your mind and body and spirit are so much more important than any job will ever be.

And if you're experiencing burnout, I think it's important to

you know, really just sit with those feelings and see what it is.

what's the root of that burnout if it's that constant achieving if it's the constant need to say yes to everything

then you know analyze those feelings but i don't want you to get caught up in thinking that if i don't have this job then i'm not worth anything or I can't achieve in other areas.

So she can just take her achieving self.

It's like addiction.

It's like we just switch addiction.

Like, can she just, can she just take her, can she be like, I'm going going to achieve the shit out of inner peace?

I'm going to achieve the shit out of like self-love.

I mean, that would be, that would be ideal.

I actually scored pretty high in this.

And I think about the reality of kind of identifying so deeply in a certain way.

Cause when I retired from playing soccer, like that was my identity.

And as like a high achiever.

It was important to me.

And that identity was important to me.

So like

transitioning is really hard and nobody talks about those transitions in life whether it's a self-imposed transition or um one that life kind of takes away from you it it really is hard i'm confused about achievers because if

if you know really like if your whole identity is wrapped up in achieving which is is a is a man-made concept right it's like achievement is is

a climb.

It's like a like, how does an achiever ever find peace?

Is it if we're trying to find worthiness in just existence, I guess is what I'm saying.

Like the answer is just, I am worthy just for existing.

Can an achiever ever buy that?

Or are they screwed forever?

It's, it's part of the growth.

of A, understanding this.

And that's why I love the Enneagram is putting words to how people have been feeling of, am I able to actually just be?

Threes really struggle with just being, they have to constantly be doing.

And so it's a practice.

Really, a lot of us, we're in a society that's constantly on the go, striving for efficiency and making money.

And if society is telling us to be that way, and then we naturally feel inclined to be that way, we have two things going against us.

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I want to say one thing.

I think one of the gifts of this Enneagram is not to educate each person away from their purpose, right?

Like, because I could just as easily say to you, Glennon, there is no inherent realness.

or security in being different.

That's right.

That is a silly goal.

Abby, there is no inherent goodness or realness or purpose on this earth just in being content and feeling good.

That's horseshit.

You need to like re-evaluate yourself.

The same thing is true with me.

I am a goal-oriented person.

I came on this earth that way.

I'm going to go out that way.

So, trying to teach me to not be goal-oriented is not the purpose of this.

The purpose of this is for me to understand myself, to see my patterns, and to see my gifts, and to make sure that I cannot

be stuck in the constant cycle of fixated patterns, but I can move into my gift.

That's right.

And my gift is aligning the way I was made with the life I want to have.

That's right.

That's right.

And I think that it's really easy.

It's really easy.

I'm so sorry.

I just tried to fix you

shit because you're a four because you don't believe you're because the way you see the world, the Enneagram above all to me is nine different ways of seeing,

of being, and of responding to what we see.

That's right.

So when you see me, when you see my goal oriented, you say, oh, that's so silly.

Why is she striving so much?

And so it's almost like you could look at me a four and be like, but what is the point of sitting around

trying to figure yourself out for your entire life?

So you could be like, our four is totally screwed forever.

This is a good segue.

So, Ashton, you said before, you said one of the things that would be important for sister and I in our partnership is to understand that both of us come to the table both feeling like we're not enough.

Just for, would you say that's true of all of them?

Like, all of us feel like we're not enough, or is it just

twos, threes, and fours?

Twos, threes, and fours feel like they're not enough.

Okay.

So, why do I not feel like I'm not enough?

Because you tend to gravitate towards feeling like you're defective or like something's wrong with you.

And so it's just a natural feeling of that you don't have enough to bring to others.

Whereas sister's going to feel like she's not doing enough.

Ah, I don't have enough to bring to others.

That's so interesting.

Okay.

What is the core value of a four?

of my type?

So the fours, you know, they want to be seen, heard, understood.

And that's because they often have that fear of being defective.

They also want to create significance.

So they love deep conversations.

They're very emotional.

So this is a huge thing when people who resist that vulnerability.

When they look at the fours, they're like, how could you even be that emotional?

Right.

Yes.

threes often feel like emotions mess with their ability to get things done like they're distraction to the work they do they actually

well that's interesting because you would feel that way right you would feel like these feelings like say we're on a meeting or whatever and you would feel like the feelings that i'm talking about in that moment are a distraction from the work i would feel like the feelings are the work This is the whole point.

If we don't work through this, we're not doing the work.

So it's important to differentiate ourselves to feel like we are different.

Like I really didn't want to be a four.

I feel like fours are excited.

That makes you so four.

That's so four of you.

Yeah.

That's so four of me.

So what does a four look like in a relationship?

Like what, how do they show up in familial or relationship ways?

Yeah, so they're going to be, like I said, the ones who have the most feelings.

And they're going to encourage their people to also have those feelings, to be able to be vulnerable.

And that, you know, change can come from

experiencing these vulnerable moments with each other.

So that's what it looks like.

It tends to look a lot like that in relationships.

But also just wanting to be seen and heard by your partner and wanting to be understood

and wanting to just sometimes sit in process.

And yes, we always say to people about fours, like, if they're sad, just let them be sad.

Yes.

You know,

stop trying to cheer them up.

Like if they want to process those emotions, like let them do that.

And the seven over here, the enthusiast is like.

Every I'm just bright siding.

I mean, that was actually one of the biggest difficulties in our early relationship is I was just like,

Mr.

Mrs.

Brightside over here.

And she's like,

you don't have to do that.

You don't have to fix this.

You don't have to make it right.

You don't have to make it even better.

Well, because there's an element of sevens that can feel like spiritual bypassing.

I know that's what you think, but I genuinely believe that it is okay.

How is that possible?

I know that that's what you think, but like, that's just my, that's just the way that I feel and see it.

Because your core desire, right, is to be contented.

That's right.

And so you have to,

you're looking,

you're seeing what you're looking for, right?

We're all seeing what we're looking for.

So Ashton S7, like Abby, if her core need is to be content, she is going to be looking for all data that confirms that and

disregarding all data that suggests she should not feel contented.

Right.

So if Glennon is, you know, feeling feelings.

in the moment and is wanting to process being

sad

you know abby's going to look at that as

glennon's not content what i would do is actively do whatever i can to be content and try to fix the situation that's right and glennon's thinking what i want more than anything is to be known and understood yeah and for me to be known and understood i need to stay here for a little longer explain it to death luckily for sevens this is a process by which you can learn to just listen is there a better gift for a four than a seven?

It's like, you know, just to see enthusiasm and celebration.

Let's play that voicemail from the seven because I think it was about relationships.

I really liked it.

Hi, Glennon.

My name is Ali.

I just wanted to know if y'all have ever explored the Enneagrams.

Me and my wife, I'm a seven, which is the enthusiast, and she is a six, which is the loyalist, which sounds like it would be a really good combination, but at times it's very, very hard.

The way we argue and the way we communicate is extremely different.

And it's taken us a while to kind of navigate through that.

So I was wondering if you knew what each of your Enneagram numbers were.

It's just, it's super, super fun and interesting to know,

you know, how each other communicates.

So talk to us about relationships, Ashton.

Talk to us about how

knowing our numbers is this.

She's a seven and a six, like a loyalist and an enthusiast how does knowing the numbers of each other and ourselves help us in our conflicts and our relationships this is the bread and butter of the Enneagram knowing that

you can allow

that person to really be who they need you to be in that moment so for a seven and a six you know sixes are

stereotypically the ones who have a lot of worry and doubt and fears.

Remember, they're strongly connected to fear.

And then, if you have a seven who is like, let's look on the bright side, it's not actually going to happen.

The six can tend to feel like their fears are invalidated because

the seven is saying, you know, well, then really believing with their whole being that things will always turn out okay.

And sixes

feel like they need to prepare for all of the scenarios just in case.

But understanding that about each other can help you adjust some of those behaviors that might feel invalidating

in your relationships.

It makes me think: okay, the relationship between the three of us.

So we're all on this podcast.

Say the three of us are at a table, we've had a conflict, and we're not, we're miscommunicating or whatever.

I'm thinking about, sister, when you and I sometimes like are, are in a conflict and I like ask so many questions.

I'm imagining this thing that happens where I'm like

doing this thing that I feel like is helpful, but I can see on your face, it's like not helpful, but I don't understand why.

And I'm wondering right now if it's because I am coming to the conflict with the goal of we are all going to leave this understanding the shit out of each other.

And so in order to do this, I need to ask you 49,000 questions which makes her feel completely questioned

do you understand the vibe i'm talking about like i can see her face like yeah like she's like getting defensive or something who do you think you are asking like i know i've done all of this work but i'm like i know these answers she's saying so i'm the reason i'm doing it that way is because i'm coming to the table thinking the goal here is that we all leave here completely understanding each other

so if she comes to the table in the middle of a conflict what she really needs is Sissy, is it for me to, what at the has it?

What is your motivation when you come to the table?

We can use the conflict that you had before, where sometimes I am bringing so much intensity to a situation or so many like, here's the 10 things and here's what we're going to do.

And then you feel like you have this kind of implicit defensiveness of, well, either she's suggesting I'm not doing enough,

or I need to validate how much I'm doing so that she knows that I'm not like

letting her down when,

and then you're kind of pushing me away and telling me the reasons why

all of this is unreasonable and I'm doing too much and it's too much.

When really what I want you to do is just receive my love in the form of all of these things that I have brought.

Like I'm not asking you to bring me anything back, but me bringing that intensity to you has you feeling like

you need to explain yourself from where you sit

so that I know you, I know where you're coming from.

Because I will sometimes leave those intense meetings and I'll turn to Abby and I'll say, she seems really stressed.

She seems so stressed.

And Abby will go, no.

Well, and I think it's because threes are so focused in on the task and the job that needs to be done that to other people who don't function that way, that can look like stress because that would stress us out.

I feel the energy of it.

So, like, if sister comes to with a bunch of things, I'm not thinking about the things.

I'm looking at her thinking, does she feel okay?

Does she feel,

does she feel, how does she feel?

When I'm she's talking, I'm seeing a flurry of things and I'm thinking, but does she look, how is she feeling?

And then she's like, what the fuck does that matter?

No, no, no.

What happens is you come in and then you say to me,

well, have you thought about like giving this job to so-and-so?

Have you thought about like, maybe we don't have to do it that way?

Have you thought about, so you're trying to deal with, with taking care of me.

And all I hear when you say those things to me is, you're not doing a good enough job.

That's right.

You can't do the job.

And you can't do the job.

Because when you are trying to take things away from me that I'm doing or suggest alternatives, the only thing that I hear is I am not

achieving the way I need to be achieving or I wouldn't be getting these questions.

This is like real breakthrough, folks.

We're having a real breakthrough.

And I'm thinking if I were saying all of those words and I had that piece of paper she has with that list, I would actually die.

Yeah.

Basically, we're in triage and I have to save my sister's life right now.

Yeah, because you're coming to it with each perspective of type.

You're treating her how you want to be treated rather than seeing it from her type's perspective.

And it's like a relief too.

It's like, oh, I don't have to do it.

I don't have to fix it.

If it comes back to every freaking thing, right?

Ashton's like, I don't have to fix anybody.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You just have to under, if you understand where people are coming from.

And this, Ashton, my husband is a nine.

He's a peacemaker.

And that has been so interesting because

it's like he is is

so deeply good.

He has like all of this like peace and harmony about him.

And he's just like super emotionally stable and easygoing.

All of those gifts can become

liabilities if we're not seeing them as their gifts.

I can either see his easygoingness as this like stabilizing emotional force in our relationship and our and our family that keeps everything steady and peaceful, or I can find it to be this kind of complacency

that if he were

to be exhibiting his care the way I exhibited it, he would be striving more.

And I'm sure he doesn't see my striving

as a gift because he probably is like, why can't she just be peaceful?

Love me.

Why can't she love me how I am?

Right.

Right.

Well, and that's part of the Enneagram is him understanding this side about you.

Just like I can hear you really deeply trying to understand that side about him.

Here's the thing.

I think that people would be surprised in no way that sister has been preparing for this like she was.

she was here to save her life like like like and she is so like, you've been texting us and all of these memes.

And this is just like the achiever in you.

And I'm like, damn, that's so cool.

It's wonderful to feel seen, though.

And, and Ashton, is that it's a relief.

It's a bit of a relief because we can feel like our challenges are so personal.

Like, they're all little neuroses when really

when you, when you understand, begin to understand what you do, Ashton, it's like you feel like you're part of like this tapestry and all of these things are being woven together.

And that's what we've seen a lot: is this

like

sigh of relief almost that other people

think like I do, or other people do things the way that I do.

And I'm not actually crazy, right?

And I do things

because

I'm made this way.

Yes,

yes, that's it.

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Can you talk a little bit about nines, Ashton?

Because I think that

there's so many nines out there.

And I think it's important to say that there's not one gift that is better and one that's more burdened or whatever.

I mean, the sevens are the best.

Sevens have more fun, but every one of them has an equal depth of them.

Like just because you seek to be contented, Abby, that's, that's like sevens bring forth

possibility because they see it.

They bring forth good things in the world because they're able to see them, whereas other people cannot see them.

So there isn't like

a depth and a shallowness of any of these.

But I know so many folks are nines.

Can you just talk about them for a little bit?

I feel like nines are always the type that want to be.

I wish that I could just have no care in the world and just focus on my peaceful environment and just go through life that way.

They have their own struggles too.

They avoid conflict more than any other type, and that's because it messes with their peace.

Their biggest desire is to protect their peaceful environment, whether that be a physical way

or emotionally.

They want to protect their emotional peace as well.

But oftentimes, this forces them to

not voice their opinions, not voice their thoughts, their wants, their needs because of that

threat to their peace.

And so then they build up resentment.

It can look like being passive-aggressive because they're not vocalizing those things.

Okay.

If every Enneagram type, one of each shows up at a dinner table, a dinner party, they're all around one table.

What does every type bring?

Okay.

I'm thinking the seven brings like

the music.

The decorations.

Oh, the decorations.

The seven brings the decorations.

I know what I, what the four brings because they bring the cards.

You bring the question cards.

Little question cards.

Of course, she literally does that actually.

I do that every week.

She literally brings the question cards.

I don't want to know what you think about the weather.

Just please answer this question about your deepest fear and regret in life.

My mom's best friend is a four

and when i was a teenager like they sat down and made the question jar yes that we every like boyfriend that we brought home had to go through the question jar and i was like this is so weird like i can't believe that this is a thing and then when i discovered the enneagram it's a trend with fours they want to have deep conversations that makes me feel so much better we have we do that at the dinner table with all our kids our kids' friends.

I thought we are the coolest family because we sit down, we really talk.

Emma says to me a couple of years ago, so-and-so's over.

I say, okay, dinner's in 20 minutes, whatever.

Abby's cooking.

She goes, I'm making these names up.

She goes, Ashley wants to just eat upstairs in my room.

Is that okay?

And I was like, wait, why?

Like, we're going to have dinner.

She goes, well, she just said to me,

your family's intense, dude.

And I was so embarrassed and sad because I thought we were doing this great thing.

If you've ever heard you're a little intense dude, you might be a four, right?

Okay.

So the four brings the cards.

What does the one bring?

The reformer.

What does the one bring?

The one to the dinner table.

I'm just thinking about how like they're going to be punctual

first of all.

Okay.

They're going to be on time.

They'll probably be hosting it with a very clean house.

Okay.

They're going to bring that like order and organization to it.

Okay, maybe some like Tupperwares for the, for the, to organize the leftovers.

No, they've got name cards.

Name cards.

Okay.

What about a two?

What does a two bring?

So the twos could also be hosting because they are typically

food.

They enjoy having having people over and things like that.

They're going to bring probably dessert.

Okay.

But they're also going to be the one that's helping, you know, clean up the dishes, wash the dishes, put things away, making sure that everybody has had enough to eat.

They're helping you today?

Yes.

They're going to call everyone beforehand and see if anyone needs a ride.

And do you need a babysitter?

Because here's my list of people.

Okay.

My issue when I arrive at places is I always like overbring the items because I don't want to run out.

I don't want people to feel like they haven't had enough.

Wow.

Okay.

So everybody wants to have a best friend who's at two.

So what does the three bring?

Yeah.

So the three is stereotypically going to want to bring the best item, right?

So they're going to, you know, homemade, homemake like the cookies or homemake the food.

That's their, the best recipe, you know, one that has been tested and people have had before.

Or they don't come because they are working.

Yeah.

Masking their need to avoid intimacy.

Goddess.

Okay.

Or they bring like some sort of competition or game or something like that.

Okay, cool.

Okay.

So then the fours have their little cards that they're going to give to everybody.

The conversations.

They're going to bring the conversations.

Okay, and then the fives.

They're not going.

They're not going.

The fives are not going.

They

don't love social interactions.

They love to stay at home.

If they are coming, they're going to bring like the random facts.

They're big on random facts.

They are big on doing research.

So things like that.

But they might just be sitting at the table, not talking.

They're at home, like watching, reading.

And then what about sixes?

What do they bring to the party?

The sixes are going to also bring conversation, but they're going to bring like a recipe that has maybe been in the family for like 25, 30 years, something that is familiar.

Like they're big on familiar.

They go to the same restaurants over and over again, order the same thing, things like that.

Comfort, like the security, stability.

Okay.

They have their security blanket.

Okay.

And then the seven brings the decorations.

No, fun.

Myself.

Yeah, the decorations, the music, like whatever that looks like.

Okay.

Awesome.

And then the eights, what do they bring?

The eight is going to pretty much tell you how the party is going to go.

And, you know, they're going to delegate where they need to.

They're going to be throwing the party, but like not hosting the party.

Trying to control it without doing the work of hosting it.

Okay.

Okay.

And they also know how it could have been better.

Yes.

Every minute, how each thing could be better, how it's sucking.

Okay.

Oh, and then what do our nines bring?

They're also about comfort.

So they're going to bring whatever feels comfortable to them.

They're going to bring a hostess, host or hostess gift.

You know, they're going to make sure that other people feel comfortable and things like that.

And are they going to be the one that reminds us at dinner that we don't talk about politics or religion or money?

They just keep.

I don't even think they'll remind you because of the threat that it might be brought up.

Oh, okay.

They're just holding their breath.

I think they'll just like hold their breath and hope it doesn't happen.

And if it does, just like retreat.

Okay, go to the beach.

They go pee then.

That's when they go pee or something.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, this sounds like a super fun dinner party.

Ashen, this has been so wonderful.

Thank you so much.

I think that the work you're doing is so freaking cool and important because what could be more important than knowing each other better so that we can love each other the way that we were met and treat each other the way other people need to be treated, not the way we want to be treated.

I have been reading these complicated books and trying to figure this shit out for years, for decades.

And I finally got my hands on your book.

And I just like, thank you for making it simple.

It's literally called the Enneagram Made Simple.

And I just wanted to say that

you making this and putting it in more simple terms for me has reinvigorated me to want to do the research, not just the tests.

Thank you, Ashton.

We adore you.

Thank you.

For our next right thing, just check out Ashton.

Check out the Enneagram.

See if it helps you understand yourself and other people better.

When life gets hard this week, don't you forget all you various numbers.

We can do hard things.

See you soon.

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