87. Jen Hatmaker & Tyler Merritt Double Date!

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Okay, welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

You came back again.

Thank you.

We are

so excited.

So excited.

Okay, so today we're doing a double date.

A double date.

And today I feel nervous.

I do too.

I feel nervous too.

Kind of.

Excited too.

Well, the reason we feel nervous is because, so have you ever gone on a double date where you're going with your good friend, but then your good friend is bringing their new

person?

Yeah.

So you're like, I have to make a good impression on this person.

I want to like them.

I don't know how it's going to go.

We've never had a conversation before.

Okay, so this is another reason we should be nervous is because these two

are in the early, early.

Yeah.

Their brains are literally not stop.

They are.

honeymooning right now, basically.

Do you remember those days when we do?

I still think about those days often.

I know.

Okay, let's tell the people who these people are if they don't already know.

Yes.

Okay.

On our double date, who we are meeting right now.

So imagine us sitting.

We've just got walked into the restaurant.

Our friends are there.

Jen Hatmaker is there.

Jen Hatmaker is the New York Times best-selling author of For the Love and Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire, along with 12 other books.

She hosts the award-winning For the Love podcast, is the delighted curator of the Jen Hatmaker Book Club and leader of a tightly knit online community where she reaches millions of people each week.

Jen is a co-founder of Legacy Collective, a giving organization that grants millions of dollars towards sustainable projects around the world.

She is a mom to five kids and lives happily just outside Austin, Texas.

And her new

boyfriend, do we say boyfriend, right?

What do you guys call it?

This was my question too.

And I asked Tyler recently, I'm like, what am I supposed to say?

Cause I'm 47.

Like, do 47-year-olds have boyfriends?

Like, I don't know if that's what we do.

Tyler says that is what we say.

Okay.

I was like, are you the man I'm dating?

I don't really know how to do this.

And he's like, you just say boyfriend.

How about that?

That's a solution.

Right, Tyler?

We walk into a room together and all the dudes are like, ooh, she's hot.

You need to be like, that's my boyfriend.

Not some sand, mixed up, like, man, I'm dating.

No, you need to be like, that's my dude.

Yeah.

Okay.

Fair enough.

Right.

It's a little bit more solid than just like, we're seeing each other.

Yes.

Or I don't really know what the terms are.

I've, you know, I'm new here.

So

you were going through the introduction.

It's okay if you just now say, and with Jen, with all the million things, with 13 books, we have her boyfriend Tyler.

Oh, no, no, no.

No, no, no.

No, thank you.

We have the Tyler Merit.

I picked up Tyler's book.

I take my coffee black, opened it, and didn't stop, Tyler.

You are so smart.

You tricked me into learning so many things.

Yes.

Yeah.

By

making it funny.

And then I'd be three pages past and I'd be like, wait a minute.

I feel like I'm learning things about states.

That's good.

That was history.

Right, right.

Tyler's tricking me into learning history.

Tyler Merritt is a Nashville-based actor, activist, cancer survivor, founder of the Tyler Merritt Project, and author of I Take My Coffee Black, Reflections on Tupac, Musical Theater, Faith, and Being Black in America.

Over the course of his career, Tyler has gained recognition through notable acting projects, including Kevin Probably Saves the World, Outer Banks,

and The Outsider, as well as serving as the face of the worldwide teaching curriculum for the Gospel Project for Kids.

Tyler Merritt made headlines with his 2018 viral video, Before You Call the Cops, which has been viewed by over 60 million people worldwide.

60 million.

That's more books than Jen has written.

It certainly is, or sold.

So tell us,

how did you two meet?

I'm dying to know this.

And this is, is this one of the first times that you guys have really talked about your relationship together?

Okay.

So are you

sure?

We've never talked together.

Did you call each other and talk about what you were going to say and not say?

No.

We did not, Lenin.

We had a meeting last night.

I would.

I did that.

I was at 1:30 in the morning.

That's right.

Over FaceTime about this.

So last November, at the beginning of November, we were were both in New York.

I was there for work and Tyler was there for life and for fun.

I was there with my publicist, Heather, and we had done a bunch of stuff.

And she's like, are we, you want to go back to the airport?

And I'm like, I'm actually going to stay another night.

I kind of want to be here.

I want to see a show.

And I kind of want to see Waitress.

I just do.

I don't, I think because Jennifer Nettles is playing like the lead.

And I just kind of want to, I just, I don't even have a ticket yet.

I'm just going to get one and I'm just going to go sit wherever.

And she was like, you know what's weird?

I have a brand new client and you would probably love him, but he's actually in New York right now by himself and he is going to see waitress tonight.

And she's like, why don't I connect you?

I'm like, okay, sure.

And so she connects us via text.

And so I reached out to Tyler.

I'm like, hey, let's like.

Let's meet for drinks beforehand.

I didn't know Tyler didn't drink at the time.

So that was a great start, right?

A super start.

Like, let's meet and have wine.

He's like, well, you can.

And so

I don't even know how.

And the next thing I know, a ticket has shown up in my phone that he got.

So we go beforehand and we sit down over french fries and honey mustard and one wine and one water.

And

we just started talking.

I was like, hmm.

This is interesting.

I assumed Tyler was gay.

Like he's single.

He's like a musical theater guy.

This is how Heather described it.

Like some musical theater background and never been married.

I'm like, oh, he's, I'm going to have a new gay best friend.

And then, which I'm not mad about.

I am so okay with anybody thinking I'm gay.

And

she knows I am

super gay on paper.

We talk about

paper.

A new GOP.

Gay on paper.

That's right.

That's right.

We get together.

And I know immediately he is not gay.

That immediately went away.

We were together like the whole night.

And, but Tyler, just because to me, like this is the gold of the story, which is

why you were there.

I forgot to ask you on our meeting last night if you wanted to talk about this, but

like why you had just decided that very week to go to New York by yourself, which now I know isn't even like you

at all.

For me to be anywhere by myself, right, right.

Yeah, yes.

Yeah, so this is going to be a hard left, right quick, Glenn Abbey, hard left.

So I was diagnosed with cancer right after I turned my book in at the end of 2020, a rare form called liposarcoma, where I had a 28-pound cancerous tumor in my abdomen.

And it was during the pandemic, so I just thought I was gaining weight.

But really what was happening is I started to lose weight and this tumor began to show itself more.

Anyways, long story a little bit shorter, I had it removed at the end of 2020, went through a year, like half a year of recovery,

already had my six-month follow-up.

It was gone and I was feeling really good about life.

And then in that week of New York, my friend Megan Hilty, James Algerhart, a handful of people had some Broadway things happening that weekend.

And I was like, I don't think I'm going to go.

Like, eh.

Well, I had to go in that Monday to Vanderbilt to have a checkup.

And my doctor said to me very casually, who I love him,

very casually because he'd been reading my book and was super hyped was like let's talk about the book and my friend was like can we talk about the cancer and he was like yeah yeah yeah it's back you have like a really small it's like two centimeters or all he was like it's almost an inch

um that's back but when cancer comes back i want you to know it's not because it's just growing back it's just with the 28 pounds that were there there was some that was left over and it's just it's growing back we're just gonna have to monitor it now every six months And if it continues to grow, we're going to have to go back in and take it back out.

And the first time, my first surgery, I lost a kidney, like there was a lot involved.

But this

time, it wasn't that.

It was just, there's a small piece that has come back.

So that was on Monday.

And suddenly my whole thought process on what I wanted to do next with my week immediately shifted.

I said to everybody, I was like, yo, I'm going to New York City.

I called James, Megan, all of them.

I was like, yo, I'm coming to see all of your stuff.

James is about to end doing Hamilton and Megan had some show at 54 Below.

I was like, I'm coming.

And so, and Jennifer Nettles, who I'm a huge fan of, was doing Waitress.

I bought a ticket, jumped on a plane, and

on my way there, I text my publicist and said, hey, I know you're leaving New York, but I'm coming in.

And she said, Jen Hatmaker's here.

And I was like, cool.

I don't really know Jen,

but I'm there by myself.

If she wants to kick it while the night, she's there.

And I had my friend Sarah, who's on my team, basically give me like a quick update of all things Jen Hatmaker.

And then we met

at our little bar thing.

And it was so platonic.

So it was platonic in your intention when you went, but how that first night when you sat and talked for a little bit, did you feel the like sparky butterflies?

What was your experience of Jen that night when you were sitting at that table?

So here's the truth.

Jen's hot.

Like, you know,

and I

didn't, I underestimated the hotness of Jen.

That's just the truth.

That's a mistake you only make once.

Yes.

That's a mistake you make one time, right?

And so I walked into this bar thing

and she was there in all of her hotness.

Like, I think you had a black leather jacket or something she was just dope and so I went in from like I'm trying to get to go see the show into suddenly like I put on like a little swag I was like oh what up though you know like what up man hat maker and granted yo real talk though listen listen I'm a 45 year old bachelor

I wasn't even thinking anything about that.

But this is what stood out.

And this is the truth.

When I sat down at the table, she already knew the server's name.

And that was hugely important to me.

Like, I went, whoa,

she sees people.

Yes.

And to me, for as fine as Jen Hatmaker is, the most attractive part to me in that moment that I think attached to me was watching how she saw people.

And I was like, wait a minute.

We see people the same way.

And that I think was the first thing that shifted in me a little bit.

And still wasn't romantic at the time.

It was just like, okay, you see people.

And then we went to Waitress together.

And her and I both, by the time the show was over, we had both made friends because we were sitting in separate spots.

So we weren't sitting next to each other.

But by the time we left, we had both made friends with all the people sitting around us.

So as we walked out of the theater, I had my new friend, she had her new friends.

And we walked out and I'm going like,

yo, you like,

are we like the same person?

Like, what's happening right now?

and so then we walk out of the theater and we walk to go and leave and let's be very clear oh i know

john jen was not trying to have any tyler in her life that on that night i wasn't even i didn't i wasn't expecting it i wasn't ready i wasn't i wasn't ready

right

so so this is what happened y'all I was there for three more days.

I was going to go see Hamilton, a show she loves that I wasn't aware of at the time, like loves.

And I'm like, yo, I'm going to go see Hamilton tomorrow.

Great seats.

I'm going to go do all these things.

I was like, look, if you don't have anything to do, I'm by myself.

Stick around.

And she was like, no.

Okay.

Well, you had to go home probably because of all the various things.

No, she didn't have, she didn't have Nana thing to do.

She's Jen Hatmaker.

She, she, she does her own thing.

I did have to go home.

And I'd already been there for like three days.

Okay.

I told you I have regrets around that.

I wish I could go back and do that differently.

I do.

So we just

that we had a little like, uh-huh.

But what was yours?

What was yours?

Because his was that you saw the person and you knew the waitress's name, which makes me want to just explode.

It's seriously exploded.

And then you were going to see waitress.

It's just all very perfect for another lifetime movie, perhaps.

But the fact that Tyler noticed that

is just I know.

Yeah.

What did you notice about him?

Did you have the

well, I just went in really cold.

I didn't know, I didn't know what to expect.

I didn't know Tyler and I didn't know his work yet.

And I didn't know really anything about him.

And so I was not ready for him, this guy, to like walk in the door because he's just like, like, just a really like powerful presence in every room and in every way, not just like the way he looks, which is how he looks.

It's like, look at you.

Everyone does.

Like everyone does.

And it's, but it's the way he is, like the way he is.

And he's talking about me knowing our waiter.

We hadn't been seated for two minutes and a mom and a daughter come walking past us.

And he's like, Whoa, you look good.

Like this outfit, I like this outfit.

And I was like, That's sweet.

Like, and it was just like a mom, like in her 50s, you know, I forgot about that.

Yeah.

He was like, this is working.

I'm like,

this is working.

And so, you know, I,

I, so he pointed out an outfit outfit on a 50-year-old woman and said, this is working.

And you

thought he was not gay.

He did.

What had happened is she had like on some like red leather pants or something, right?

Oh, so it was noteworthy.

Yes, yes.

And, you know, I dressed women for a while.

Right.

You know,

she walked up and I was like, yo, those pants are fire.

And then what you did, Jen, is you immediately, you didn't just sit back and go, well, let me just watch Tyler do this.

You jumped in too and were like, those are amazing.

What are you guys doing tonight?

And that was, was, again, I looked over at you like,

are we, are we seeing people together right now?

Is this what we're doing?

There was the piece after waitress where we left.

We walked outside and I saw that she made all these friends and we both made friends.

I was taking pictures for her and all this.

And we walked away and we were about to leave.

And I told her, I said,

hey, I want to be very clear.

I don't mean this flirty.

I don't mean this like I'm trying to like get at at you because I was not.

Again, wasn't even a part of my thing.

And I said, but

I am

so

blown away by how you see people

and how you make people be seen and feel loved.

And

I don't know if we're ever going to hang out again.

or ever see each other again, but I want to just take a moment to let you know that I see that in you.

And please don't ever stop, stop doing that.

And granted, I'm, of course, I didn't know Jen, so I didn't know that's just what she does.

And I remember thinking to myself, like,

she's dope.

She's just dope.

And so that was the beginning.

And what happened was we had each other's cell numbers because, you know, how else are we going to go have drinks, drinks before a show?

And

it just kind of started like a little

texting.

A little texting.

A little texting.

We know how it goes, don't we?

Oh, we're following each other now on social media.

And

then it was like, how about a phone call?

Like

the olden days, right?

What?

Am I getting this wrong?

No, you're right.

But do you remember how the phone call happened?

I don't know.

I do wonder.

Because if there was a definitive question of who started what with who, like,

who started a what with who, I would probably say it was the phone call is what started the whole thing.

And the phone call was Jen's idea.

That makes sense.

This tracks.

So we had been texting, and it was completely platonic.

It was all good.

And she got to chapter seven in my book.

And I wanted some intel on her

about that chapter.

And I'm thinking she's a writer.

She'll text

and she texts me and she goes, Hey, can you talk?

Can you talk?

And I, and I text her back, and I said, On the phone?

It's aggressive.

Do people subscribe to that?

that like do yeah i don't i only talk to my mom on the phone no completely same so i said to her i was like you want to talk like 1992 yeah and she said yeah so even to this day when we talk on the phone we call it 1992.

oh yeah

yeah yeah and then we did upgrade to face time which we call 2010.

So

anyway, that is true, but I'm just talking because I'm a human who talks to people.

And I mean, how much can we text?

I mean, I was getting like thumb fatigue.

And

so we started talking on the phone.

And then

I'll tell you who really flexed.

Because, first of all, let it be known, Tyler sent me his book.

So I've gotten that in the mail

and read it cover to cover.

It is annotated, you guys.

It looks like that's my college textbook.

I have highlighted the shit out of that thing.

So that's kind of that wrapped up the engine.

And then Tyler in December

sends me,

I'd written something about buying my Christmas, essentially.

Like we're doing a bougie Christmas.

I'm doing bougie.

I have somebody come in.

They're going to do my whole tree.

I'm just not doing it this year, not this year.

And so Tyler texts me.

He's like, I sent you something.

It should be there like tomorrow or whatever.

And I was out of town.

And I'm like, okay, I'll see it when I get back.

And I get back and he has sent me this.

I do not know how to describe this, but it's like a big box of gold preserved roses.

This is a thing I didn't know.

And he's like, this is for your bougie Christmas.

They're like gorgeous.

They're over the top gorgeous.

And so I'm like, these are so pretty.

Well, that night, my brother and my sister-in-law are over at the house having dinner.

And I'm like,

look what Tyler sent me.

Look at these beautiful flowers.

And my sister, who's essentially a private investigator,

she starts googling because I'm like, I don't know what these are.

And she's like, Jen,

these roses are $500.

And I'm like, what?

And then I kind of mentioned to Tyler, and he's like, I have only sent these roses to one other person ever.

And it's exactly how the story is.

It is exactly how it went.

It is precisely how it went.

And he keeps trying to act like this was not a flex, and it sure was.

Gold-covered roses.

I can't wait to hear Tyler try to get around this one.

Thank you.

So, okay, okay.

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I'm 45, single with no kids, which it means, this is what this means.

And I do pretty okay for myself.

It's just me.

I have no kids i don't have anything else except just stuff okay

and so

she posts this thing and she has this tree that basically matches these flowers and i know because i had sent my mom some i see this thing and i think to myself yo i'm going to send these over to jen and so i sent them to her i was just like this post is cool and how fun is it going to be for her to have this bougie christmas that she wrote a whole thing about and open up these roses and be like i'm going to put these over here and i'll be honest with you in my mind i'm keeping it This is 100.

In my mind, I'm thinking Jen has 12 dudes that like send her things and people that send her things all the time.

And like, I'm not, at that period of time, I was, I already had friends in my life then who were being like, you talk about Jen a lot.

Are you guys something?

And I said, nah, no, she's just my homie.

She's cool as all this get out.

But well, and to be fair to you, Tyler, gold and roses have historically always been platonic gifts.

That's

Right.

I mean, really.

When you think about it, those are, there's no, you know.

We're trolling you.

I feel, I feel attacked.

Okay.

So how then?

You're welcome, Jen.

Okay.

So how then did the first move actually happen?

Yeah.

Because I will take ownership of that one.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm so excited.

But here's the thing.

Like, I don't know what you mean by move.

Like

making out.

Like, well, the thing is,

we fell for each other in a not normal way.

Like, we fell for each other from two different states over 100 million hours of FaceTime.

And so, we weren't even together.

Like, we weren't together in the same city.

And so we fell for each other in our hearts and minds, like way before we even knew what our sexual chemistry was going to be like.

Like, we didn't know what we knew, but we were guessing at it.

I knew.

Yeah.

I mean, okay.

It wasn't that much of a mystery.

All right.

All right.

That's fair.

But so by the time we finally got together in the same place,

we were a hundred miles down the road.

Like, you know what I mean?

Yes, we do know what you mean.

I wonder if we'll make out.

Right.

It wasn't

clear.

Yeah, it was happening.

So isn't that a weird experience?

It's so different because we had the exact same thing.

We fell in love hundreds of miles apart jen and i we have two very different lifestyles that's the whole other thing like yes two very we should get to that she's right though we had had a lot of communication and

i slowly started to fall for jen and then she like sped it up immediately yeah like it because i didn't even really know i was really falling for i just knew like

we talked a lot we were joking a lot like we and what should have given me the clue is

I don't text that much with anybody except people in like my immediate circle, right?

Like, but here she is over in Texas, and we just got along so well, you know, that it just seems so natural.

And we started getting a little flirty, but even then, it was like, you know, as a single dude, you know, you just

flirty's not weird, right?

And then one day, she just like made shit real, Glennon.

Like

she made it real.

What'd she say?

She did the thing that she doesn't know any dating rules at all.

Like zero.

She's new here.

How would I know anything?

How?

None.

Not zero.

Like none.

Like not at all.

And so one day, just casually,

casually, she drops the, so what is this?

DTR.

DTR define the relationship.

Well, what is it?

Am I a crazy person for wanting to know that?

So, like, he's 100% right.

It was flirty and it was going somewhere.

And we were texting each other.

There is no way we were texting each other and calling each other like normal people.

Like, no, we don't do that.

That's not how we, that's not how we operate anymore in today's modern age.

And so it was going somewhere.

And we were like Johnny on the spot when one of us like sent the other one another text.

And it was something was happening.

And I thought it was happening in Tyler.

Now I know he's a very exuberant person.

And so

I was like, is he like this with everyone?

Or just, is this gym specific?

Or is this just Tyler?

Like, maybe he just loves everyone.

I'm not sure, but I don't want to start barking up this tree if it's the wrong tree because I was feeling something for him.

Something is happening in me.

All those internal thoughts she said to me.

Like she put in the form of a text.

Look at you.

So what's going on?

I want to be very clear.

Do you talk to everybody like this?

I need to go down a line and define this exactly.

Yes.

Clarity.

Yes.

I'm like, I like you.

Do you like me?

I can't tell, but I

need to know because I don't know what's happening.

And I need us to have some knowing about what is happening right now.

We've always had clarity.

Yeah.

We've always had clarity.

She also told me too.

She was, she also, I don't know if you remember this, but you did say like, there's, there's some other people in my life.

So I'm just trying to figure out if I'm trying to holler at you or not.

Well, I mean, sort of.

I just went, who was I thinking about all the time?

You, you, you, you, you, you.

And so anyway, he was like, oh, damn.

Like, I didn't even know.

I thought we were both in the same headspace.

And I'm like, oh, okay, this is, I don't know what's happening now to this reaction.

But we, to your credit, Tyler, like you, you picked up the baton there.

What I said was give me some time.

I look, I, I, for real, y'all, I was like, uh, can I have a minute?

Fair, good.

Can I have a minute?

Because this just got real, like, immediately.

Like, like 20 minutes ago, you were like, How's your day?

And now you're like, Can you define this, please?

And so, I just don't, I just didn't want anything that wasn't real.

Like, I'm, I'm too old for it.

I've already done it.

I've done it.

I don't, I'm not, I'm not interested in casually dating eight men.

That sounds like a fucking nightmare.

Yes.

And so I just didn't want it.

And so if I was feeling one way and he wasn't, I needed to know because this has taken up a lot of time and energy.

How long did the minute last?

Yeah.

How long did you take?

How much time did you need?

Out of respect for Jen, it was only about 24 hours.

Okay.

And

I came back to her and it got real technical.

And I was like, listen, it got real clinical.

Like I came to her and I was like, okay,

I feel like I may have some feelings for you.

Thank God.

Here's the situation.

My life is very complicated.

I have been a bachelor for a very long time.

So

I need to figure out what it would even look like for me to be in a relationship with somebody.

And if you have patience with me to see what that would look like, then we can investigate.

Like, I was just like, so transparent with her.

Like, I was like, this is what it's like to have, to be two whole people coming together this is interesting this is

because you're just clinical careful intentional clearance yeah um

truth want

is that what i want these are things that two whole people say to each other as opposed to these younger relationships where you're just trying to be everything to each other and reflecting each other and not you were two this is you were negotiating an adult relationship

100 100 it's like a business meeting yeah and

it's true because the two of us each have a whole life yes and it's lovely both of our lives it's full of people that we love and that love us we love our work we have built our communities around us um

and

The thing about Tyler is

he's, and I've told him this, but he's just so secure and confident.

And that's new to me.

That's a new personality for me to be in a relationship with,

who isn't fragile and doesn't need me to like fill in gaps or

spotlight, right?

Or those things that we were talking about in our other episode, not at all.

And interestingly, I found out that I'm not that person either.

I've got a whole, this is why I'm like, what's going on here?

Cause I don't want to waste time.

Yes.

I don't want to like you if you don't like me and then it was like with that sort of like

rip cord pulled then i would say at that point it was a fast forward button for the two of us there was this other piece too that was very serious for me

i was very aware of who jen was at this point i understood where she was coming out of what relationship she had come out of yes i was aware of her previous um

for lack of a better word is okay to say hurt is okay to say that yes it's okay to say hurt.

We say that.

Hurt.

I knew where she was coming from.

Like, I was very clear on being like, I have a history of not trusting women.

I have a history of dogging people so that I can protect myself.

I knew I was stepping into something with somebody who was whole and I needed her to know that she was safe.

And

that piece, that's where the negotiations began, right?

Where I was like, all right,

there's a couple of things you need to understand.

My best friend's a girl.

The person who I spend 98% of my time with is another single woman who is like my ride or die.

And so you just need to know this and coming into this, that that's not going to change because that's my, it's my best friend.

I'm surrounded by a ton of women.

There's a song in Musical Rentwork called Take Me or Leave Me where there's a character saying like, this is just who I am.

Like, I'm going to always have these people around me.

Like, if you can roll with that, then we're going to be okay, but just, you're just going to have to know.

And so I came to Jen and was like, yo,

yo,

I just got to keep it 100 with you.

Give me a little bit to get my situation straight.

Let me talk to the people that are in my life.

And if we're going to do it, let's do it.

But before you step into this, I need you to know that this is a safe place.

And then we started to walk from there.

And it just, it switched.

And she gave me time too,

because we lived two very different experiences dating.

Like we were living in two different worlds.

Here's something we don't talk about that often.

And I really, truly believe this.

There is a single community,

right?

Like

people that have been single for a long time, we speak our own language.

We have our own rhythms.

We go our own places.

We, when somebody leaves the fold, it's kind of an event.

It's a thing.

Is it like an abandoning?

Like you feel like you're abandoning the

crew to 100%.

My best, one of my best friends, Mike Hulser,

he, we, we were, we were roommates for grow, two grown men were roommates for like most of my adult life.

And he started dating someone and they got serious and got married.

And

the last year of our

relationship was, was really difficult because I saw that he was leaving.

He like he was getting married and going away.

And there was this internal hurt there.

Like, sure.

Well, you're abandoning me.

You're abandoning this thing that

we just do, this unspoken world that exists of like single individuals.

And it's something we don't talk about because I don't think it's something that we realize is so there.

But I know that there are single people listening to this right now that are going, I know that, I know that community.

I know those people.

And it must be extra confusing.

I mean, it's because our culture, we value romantic love as the ultimate thing.

And friendship is just what we have extra to get us there.

So when you have a group of people who you have said, that's not our value, we actually believe in this as real love, friendship.

And then you say to them, oh, but actually I'm going to go, it probably feels like you're abandoning the value

of the group.

100%, Glenn.

And here's the other thing about that.

We give women.

so much shit, single women, so much shit.

Like we're, if there's a single woman, woman, we ask the question, so what's your dating life like?

And when, when they, when they reply and they go, I don't have one, I'm cool, I'm a boss, and this is my shit.

Like, we, we want to go, yes, yes, sister, do it.

But it really,

you know, there's this other piece of going, but how do you do that?

Like, how do you really manage that single thing?

You know, or you must just not have found the right person yet, or you must just not

right.

And we don't typically do that with men as much.

I have some amazing female friends in my life who are single and they're okay being single.

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How do you feel, Jen?

Are you scared after getting

going through so much pain, opening your heart again?

Like, what is that like?

And do you find yourself self-protecting or fighting the urge to shut it down before it hurts?

It's interesting because, you know,

Tyler and I have some pretty like marked differences, you know, black guy, white girl, that the racial piece alone is a real deal.

But for me, from my personal experience, the bigger distinction between us is this piece, which is I've been married since I was 19.

And so I'd never spent an adult day where I wasn't married, except for the last year and a half.

And Tyler's never spent an adult day married.

And so we built our adult lives so differently.

I was like building a family and he was like building a life, right?

I'm a parent.

He's not a parent.

These to me are the differences that rise up more acutely.

And I think we've had exactly one wobble, and it was around this, because

you guys know that I did just so much work in recovery, my own work, my heart, my soul, my mind, my processes, my patterns, my reactions, my responses, my worldview, everything.

And

I mean, I put my own DM feet on stable ground.

Yes, you did.

And

I recovered.

I was a recovered person and I was healthy and I reclaimed myself and I stepped into my own life.

What I have what I've learned is that there is a there are some residual effects of my specific brand of trauma

that would just simply not present themselves until I was in a relationship with another person.

That's right.

I just wouldn't have the opportunity to experience it.

Like it wouldn't come up because it wouldn't have happened.

That's right.

And so this is the piece that I didn't even understand I had a fear trigger inside of me like I did because I've never had it before.

I have always been stable and confident and secure in my relationship.

Like to the bitter end when I was still just like clawing my way forward, like just always felt confident in my body.

I felt confident in just everything.

Like this is, this is, I don't have to worry.

This person is never, ever going to hurt me.

This person will not walk out on me.

This is a forever match.

So that has, that has broken something inside of me, which isn't all the way he'll get called trust and safety.

Yes.

And

so trust and safety are my triggers.

And so when Tyler is just living his normal life, which he explained to me, and I understand,

and then a little something happens, and all of a sudden I freak out.

Like I just freaked out.

All of a sudden felt unsafe.

I don't know if I'm going to be enough.

I don't know if I'm going to be enough for you.

Like in any sexually, or I just like had a complete sideways panic attack.

This was just a couple of weeks ago.

And he was like,

what is happening right now?

Because it was, the punishment did not fit the crime.

It did not fit the conversation.

It did not fit the context.

It was an over-response.

And I was like,

fun fact.

I actually don't also know what is happening right now.

Like,

what is this?

What is going on?

you know what

let me let me say this i don't know if

what is happening is actually kind of really what went down i think what really went down was

jen was like i don't know what's happening this isn't how i usually am

you know if you felt a certain way about yourself feeling the way that you were feeling And I was over here and connect me, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was like, this checks out to me.

Like, this makes sense.

I feel like someone who has the past trauma that you have.

Yes.

This, you should not be walking around all the time like everything is good.

You came out of a tricky situation out of a, and you, the last time you dated somebody was when you were 19, right?

Like, not everything with you and I should be so easy.

And for as much as I've tried to make you feel safe and secure, it is okay.

And I told you this, I was like, it is okay

for you to walk through what you're walking through right now.

You just need to know I'm not going anywhere.

That's beautiful.

And if you understand and knowing I'm not going anywhere, then we, then we'll, we'll make it through this.

And don't be so hard on yourself because this is, you know,

this is the journey.

I know, but that's what I do.

I do that well.

And so I called my counselor, who I haven't seen in a few months, because I felt like she and I had really gotten to the bottom for a lot of our stuff.

And I was like, hello.

hello, I find I'm in need of your services.

There's some new things.

Surprise.

A new relationship brings up new things.

I mean, did you guys experience this where you felt like you didn't even know what was wobbly inside of you until you got together?

Just recently.

I think just stopped.

Yeah, I think, I think one of the things early on, because both of us left relationships where there was betrayal.

And so because we're smart people, we were like, so this is probably going to show up in certain ways.

And one of the things that I need is to be told over and over and over again that she's not going to leave me.

And I'm like, I'm so sorry that it's going to probably make you feel sad.

She said yesterday.

She said, you think that it's going to make me feel sad to tell you that I'm not going to leave you?

And I, and I thought, oh, that's, that's kind of interesting that I would feel that way.

I had a, a dream that she was leaving me the other night.

Yeah.

And I woke up and I was kind of pissed at her, like we all are after those dreams.

And I told her about it and she texted me the sweetest thing yesterday.

She said, I just want you to know that I'm so sorry that that dream happened and that I'm never going to leave you.

I'm never going to cheat on you.

I'm never going to leave you.

But I'm going to tell you that it was worse than that.

It wasn't sweet like that in the beginning.

Like the first year, I

would lose my mind.

Like I would

she found me going through her phone once or wait.

I just told her I admitted that I went through her phone.

Yeah.

I was like so humiliated because what kind of 45-year-old woman is like going through her partner's phone?

Yeah.

And she said, she took a deep breath and then she said, What else do you need?

Do you need my email passwords?

Do you need like what

it was just like that?

She, what she was doing, what you were doing, which was just like making room for trauma and not making it personal.

It's not a character defect.

It makes sense from what you went through.

So, Jen, it's just trauma makes you,

it is a very difficult thing

that no one talks about to truly trust yourself and then find out that trusting yourself was the wrong move before.

Yeah.

Exactly.

And then trying to trust yourself again.

It's a cluster.

That's what me and my counselor are working on right now, that trusting yourself piece.

Cause I'm like, oh, that gear was broken, apparently.

And so if I could be wrong, that wrong about a marriage, which I mean, that person had no reason to leave.

We had a whole empire.

Like, I guess anybody can leave, you know?

And so, and that's not fair to Tyler.

And, and because he's only, and I told him this after that, it was like a two-day slide.

And I was like, um,

I'm sorry that you have fallen in love with a person who has trauma.

I don't love this for you.

And I don't love it for me, but here we are.

And all he has ever done in response to me ever

is

add safety and security constant.

I mean, it's constant, it's literally constant.

And so, it's nothing that Tyler is doing or not doing.

It's just me, this is mine to work out.

And I'm even, I'm a teeny little bit grateful for it because it's just shown me a new place that needs my attention.

And I'll be better for it on the other side.

Like, I'll be, I will be stronger for having experienced this and then faced it, which I know how to do now.

I have muscle memory for this.

And in the meantime, I mean, while I have been, as he said, like maybe patient with him in terms of his sort of single life and

putting up new

pillars in his life that weren't there before, he's patient with me too.

And

understanding where we come from.

And you please remember, because this helped me, is that I used to tell myself, well, I trusted myself before and it didn't work.

So now, but the fact is that I just wasn't trusting myself before in the first marriage.

Like I actually knew.

I knew,

I didn't know exactly what, but who cares about the what?

I knew what was happening inside me.

I knew something was wrong.

I wasn't trusting myself enough.

So it's not like I didn't, I trusted myself before and I was wrong.

It's like, I didn't trust myself before.

And now what we know is when we feel real things, we're going to say the real things, which also you did.

That is doing it.

You felt something weird and you said it and you trusted Tyler to handle it and he did.

Yep.

Yeah.

Abby, let me ask you this.

After you wake up from your scary dreams and all that, which I think we all have, I think this is a little bit unrelated from your dream, but as I was listening to you talk, what is, and I'm sure there's a laundry list of things, but what would you say is like

the sing one of the singular, like top-notch things that you say that you absolutely love about Glennon?

I just said it to her this morning.

So

Glennon has this unique way of tapping into a future world.

So, we kind of talk about it in

the idea of God of bringing heaven to earth.

And she has this beautiful way of when she gets into her creative space of seeing into a future that we don't live in yet, and then trying to find ways to breathe actual reality and life into that future.

And I think that being around somebody who

lives like that

is

one of the things that I admire.

And also she loves all of her people so relentlessly.

It's just unbelievable.

But I think that it was just one of those things that I said to her this morning.

I just like, you have this beautiful relationship with God and

how your relationship, I mean, it really has transformed my relationship.

I came into this marriage as an atheist and now I see and define God very differently.

So, this is all to say:

I see the God in Glennon, and I also see the heaven on earth that she is so

trying to create in some way, shape, or form.

Yo,

that is dope.

Glennon, what about you with Abby?

I don't think that there is any moment,

any moment

since I have known Abby

that

Abby has not made, it's like if every moment or every dinner or every conversation is like,

it's like 70%.

Everything's 70%.

And my whole life, I've been like this, Tyler.

Like I've really just always been like, is this it?

Like this is it.

And then Abby came and every moment, every dinner, every conversation, everything is just like 100%

now.

It's like that, that

Wizard of Oz thing where it was all black and white and then

and everything is in color forever.

Like everything is in color forever.

with Abby.

And

it's not like

just spiritual.

It's like she leaves the house to go away for two days.

And the kids and dogs look at me like,

what the hell?

Like you

like, and I can't do it.

Like no matter, no, no matter of dancing or like turning on the music or like I can't.

Chase wrote in our little, we had this little silly wedding book where people could like write something and no one really wrote in it.

But when we were flipping through it once, there was this page where Chase had written, he was like 14 or something at the time and he had written one little sentence and it said, Abby,

before you came, mom never turned the volume up past 11.

And it was literal, but also just that's our life.

Like she came and turned the music on.

And we went from just like surviving to like living.

I have to ask you guys, yeah, Tyler.

I love those answers.

What would you say about Jen that you love the most?

Okay.

So.

It's an interesting thing when you have

somebody who is in

a public forum, right?

Where people

see that person, they follow what they do.

Watching the

thousands of people that are absolutely in love with my girlfriend

for a gazillion reasons, I watch that

and I think to myself,

You don't even know the best of her.

You don't even know, like, like the,

yo, I know Jen is funny, but she's witty and funny in a way that we will talk and go back and forth laughing about stuff.

And I'll think to myself, like, you can hang, I'm a comedian, like you can hang with me.

Oh, yeah.

She's as funny as they get.

And so you have that humorous piece, but in the same moment, she can flip over and go, okay, so let's talk about what's happening in your heart right now.

I feel

people

can't understand the greatness of who she is, and I get to see that shit like

every text message or every FaceTime.

And

I'm going to say this, man, and I probably shouldn't say this in public forum.

I don't understand

how anyone could leave Jen in the way

that Jen has been left before?

Listen, I'm a grown-ass man, so I know relationships don't work out.

Like, you know, things change, a certain other, but

I can't imagine spending

20-plus years with Jennifer Lynn King

and then be okay not still having her around.

Because you're that damn good, Jennifer.

And

I kind of feel bad that the whole world's never really going to know how good you are.

They get pieces.

They don't get the 1.30 in the morning FaceTime calls.

But she's a shit, Abby.

And

it's hard to put in words, man.

I know I'm going to listen back to that and be like, I fumbled all over that, but I don't know how to say it.

And people will probably never get to really experience how great she really is.

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Jen, your turn.

God.

I just have never, ever, ever, ever known anybody like Tyler.

Never.

I don't even have a, I don't have a comparison.

I don't have somebody I can hold up and be like, he's kind of like this or he's kind of like that.

Just everything about him is so new to me and so astonishing and so shocking.

And

it's like I'm in a completely new zip code that I didn't even know ever was.

And

Tyler,

it's not just that he's neutral with me, like he just holds room for me or whatever.

It's that

he like,

there's no, I cannot give you enough exam, there's a million examples of him not just seeing me, but like absolutely like celebrating who I'm with.

He would no sooner ask me to shrink by one millimeter

in the forever.

That would be so absurd to him.

Yesterday I was on a TV show, a talk show, and I get this long text from him after he watches the whole thing.

He watched the whole thing,

and he sends me this long text yesterday telling me how much what he saw in me, what he saw in my poise and my confidence, how I was made for this.

It just went on and on and on.

And he's like, This is this, I'm drawn to you.

You're such a discerning leader.

Just you don't have to say that.

He could have said, nice job.

Yes.

You know, you looked pretty.

Instead, it's this, you did look pretty.

Okay, thanks.

Instead, it's this like laser precision.

I'm going to tell you what I see in you.

And it's all the bigness of me.

You know what I mean?

It's the big parts of me.

It's the shiny parts.

And those were the parts that just didn't get to live free and clear.

And it's just like a miracle every day to me, the way that Tyler sees me and loves me like that.

Like doesn't just like, oh,

she's a lot, but like, loves me like that and wants me to be like that.

I've not felt for one second that I have to be anything other than literally exactly who I am.

And he is, that's my best self for him.

And, and even under that, like,

you guys are understanding this as you kind of get to know him, but like, he's just good.

Do you know what I mean?

He's just good.

Like, he's good.

He's good in the world.

He's good-hearted.

He's generous.

He is like

loving and he cares about all the right things and that matters to me like that's a big deal and

um

there's just

that that whole bit of him is important to me that i am with somebody who is

um

like good at his core yeah which again for me creates safety and trust

those are my wobbles and so

all these ways that Tyler not just acts toward me, but just is like as a person,

it is just, it's just constantly scaffolding for me safety and trust.

Just constantly.

Beautiful.

Jennifer.

So

Tyler.

And he's real hot.

I mean, he's a real hot guy.

And that brings us full circle.

That brings us full circle to we start with Jen's hotness.

We end with Tyler's hotness.

Yeah.

I mean, let's bookend it, you know?

You have always been such a beautiful story in the world, Jen.

I mean, you just, as for this house,

we

love a Sim Jen hat maker and we are so freaking grateful to now know Tyler.

And

it's just when I'm talking to you guys, I'm, I'm thinking about this episode we did a long time ago about stress and in our lives and how what helps us the most is a hug from a person for 20 seconds.

But what we learned about is that the only way that the hug works to lower our, all of our trauma

and to bring us comfort and peace is when the two people in the hug are both on equal footing.

Because if one is leaning too much on the other, it scientifically doesn't lower the adrenaline and cortisol as much as when both have a center of gravity that is completely on its own.

So if they separated, they would both stand alone.

But together, the choice of the togetherness instead of the desperation and need for the togetherness is what actually creates true love, which is out of want and desire, not just need.

That's dope.

You are amazing.

We love you so much.

We can't wait to get to know you, IRL.

Same.

And just thanks for being here.

And for the rest of you, we will catch you next time on We Can Do Hard Things.

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