82. Hannah Gadsby: How to Communicate Better

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Hi, everybody.

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

Today,

we are having an absolutely beautiful conversation with the

incomparable, brilliant, honest, just

funny, and absolutely wonderful Hannah Gadsby.

I have been wanting to speak to Hannah Gadsby for so long, ever since I laughed and cried and raged my way through Nanette.

And then after that with Douglas.

Which are her stand-up specials.

Right, her stand-up Netflix specials.

And we talk about all kinds of beautiful things today, telling stories and parenting and especially neurodiversity um which i know sister you've been wanting to to talk about on the pod for so long

i'm so thankful that she came on and shared so honestly and quite a lot um about she has a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder and i think it's so important to hear

from women about that her story is

fascinating.

She went through really hard times.

She was unhoused.

She was in terrible situations a lot of her life and was only diagnosed when she was 30, basically.

I think it was a year before Nanette came out.

And a lot about her story has to do with living

without this knowledge of herself, but just living in kind of an ill-fitting world.

And it is a place where a lot of girls are.

And

It's just so important that people learn about this and the way that girls do do not exhibit the same signs of autism that boys do.

We live by a male model of autism.

So that means they're looking for the same markers.

That means when they're ultimately diagnosed, they're getting the same therapies.

When in fact, the girl brain with autism looks different than the boy brain with autism.

It results in a lot of real damage.

42% of girls are diagnosed with another mental disorder instead of autism when they go to get checked.

And boys are diagnosed two years earlier.

So there's a lot of girls struggling out there with depression and anxiety.

And like Hannah, not being diagnosed until they're 30.

And in her words, not haven't participated in life up to that point because they've been so sidelined by it.

This conversation can help a lot of us to understand ourselves and give us insight into people we love.

And importantly, it can help us reframe neurological diversity as differences, not as deficiencies.

What Hannah shared about the exhaustive preparations she has to do to navigate everyday things, including this conversation today, was so important.

It reminded me of something I read that explained how we all have a social brain, a network made up of multiple regions throughout the brain that help us navigate social interactions.

And there's a new line of unpublished research suggesting that in girls and women with autism, they keep their social brain engaged, but every bit of social interaction may be mediated through the prefrontal cortex, which means that whereas many of us are able to deal with social interactions instinctively, for girls and women with autism, processing every social interaction can be the equivalent of doing high-grade math.

So when she talks about being exhausted, having to prepare, how depleting it is, it's because every social cue is essentially an equation of long division, which is the labor neurodivergent folks do in masking to be in relationship and community.

Masking is mimicking, trying to replicate what other people are doing, but they're not doing it by instinct.

I just am really...

thankful that she goes into that detail that for us, because I think it's really important as empathy for

people understanding the people that we love, that that's the work they're doing every day, the work that we take for granted, just getting a feeling.

Yeah.

And it's so important when talking about neurodiversity to actually be talking to

people who are neurodivergent.

And with that,

we're going to give you Hannah Gadsby.

Hannah Gadsby.

stopped stand-up comedy in its tracks with her multi-award winning show Nanette.

Its release and subsequent MENP body wins took Nanette and Hannah to the world.

Hannah's difficult second album, which was also her 11th solo show, was named Douglas after her dog.

Douglas covered Hannah's autism diagnosis moving beyond the trauma at the center of Nanette and instead letting the world see the view from Hannah's brain, one that sees the world differently but with breathtaking clarity.

The show was an Emmy-nominated smash hit and is available throughout the world on Netflix.

Hannah's award-winning shows are a fixture in festivals across Australia and the UK.

Her first book, 10 Steps to Nanette, a memoir situation, which I adored, is out now.

We're talking today to someone

who I think on my list of top five humans guests that I was dying to have on this show

was right up there.

Number eight.

And that is her.

Her name is Hannah Freaking Gatsby.

Thank you.

Thank you for the middle name.

I have one.

Got one now.

Okay.

Hannah, your new book

is so freaking wonderful.

Abby knows.

I picked it up and then disappeared from my family for three days because I just thought it was so wonderful.

I couldn't put it down.

Thank you.

Did I mess with your head?

Yeah.

Cool.

Yeah, it did.

We'll get into that.

For sure.

It did.

I

love

the whole

journey that you take us through with your mom.

I love your mom.

You love your mom.

Everyone who reads your new book is going to love your mom.

And when you were a kid, your mom was harassing you so relentlessly about some dirty glasses in your room that eventually you blew up, exploded, started cursing at her.

And she was happy because she said, I just wanted you to feel.

And then later she said, after you got your autism diagnosis i think you were 30

right spoiler that

she said

i thought there was a lot going on inside you you were like a tin of baked beans and my tin opener wouldn't work on you oh

yeah to um just give that some context uh my mom

is a very distinct character.

And in my

performance life, I impersonate her.

So, just to give that

how it really was for me, she said, This, oh, yes,

I always knew you're there was a lot going on inside you, you're like a tiny tin of baked beans.

And my tin opener was broken, I just couldn't get in.

And I said to her, I said, Mum, you don't like baked beans,

and she said, No,

no, I don't,

No.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She's a very funny lady.

Very funny lady.

But yeah, I was a bit locked up as a kid.

I didn't have great language

access.

So, and also,

you know, the feelings thing was, you know, because I'm not typical.

It's frustrating, I think, for neurotypical parents to connect with neurodivergent children.

But you get there.

so what was that like as a kid growing up as you

without a diagnosis

well it's you know it's difficult I think it might be worth like just clearing up what autism is great

exactly you know because there's a lot of we'll just call it misinformation

and

I think

so what it basically is like if you want to boil it down to its bare bones minimum is it's uh what animates you what what drives your central nervous system um

in your neurotypical people it is um

sort of what is important so what drives your behavior is what is important and uh where you are in the social tribe and neurodivergent people it is what's interesting

and that can vary like there's a saying is like

uh you know what's you've met one person on the spectrum you've met one person on the spectrum The particular place that I am on the spectrum is I have

sensory processing disorder.

Now, people can have sensory processing disorders and not be on the spectrum.

That's an important

distinction to make.

But where I'm, I do have that.

I am turned all the way up to no filters.

I'm very heightened.

Some of them cross over a little bit.

My taste and smell are kind of sometimes

indistinct.

And

then there are two others,

vestibula and procioception.

So I'm hyper aware of my space.

Clutter distresses me.

And I have

the

vestibula is a

balance issue.

So I don't know where my head is in space.

So I fall over a lot.

I have a lot of accidents.

I hurt myself a lot.

So it's just like this invisible disability that becomes very visible because I break my leg.

I'm currently got a broken leg because I fell, but didn't know that I was falling until it's too late.

And so

I broke my leg.

It's fun times, good times.

Last year I had a total knee reconstruction.

Same thing was falling before,

you know, and it was too late.

Gravity.

gravity was always already my bitch um

and so

my knee busted and the year before that, I busted my nose open, and then it was a broken toe.

Like, I have, you know, if someone were to dig me up, and you know, after I was dead, like

hundreds of years at time, they would dig me up and go, Wow, I think we found a warrior princess,

you know, because my skeletal system is, you know, it's it's like got the marks of war, but really, I fell over walking,

yeah.

So, I'm playing a long game, really.

Um,

so these, these are sort of, you know, not knowing these things that you, you know, I have sensitivities was kind of a lot of the kid because you see people behave in a way and interact and socialize in a way and you try and do that and I would get completely overwhelmed or disassociate because, you know, I have an oral processing disorder.

So

I can't tune into

noise very well and sort it out in my head.

So it's very easy for me to just tune out and listen to people who are speaking English and go, Wow, that's a foreign language.

So I had to focus really hard, which made learning very difficult.

I was very lucky my mum made all my clothes, though there is a dark side to that.

Kappadashery abuse is real.

But

so I never had like the tag issues because there's no tags on my clothes.

And she always used nice fabric

in the texture quality, not necessarily the patterns.

No child needs to wear harlequin sweaters.

And then,

so

there was a lot about my childhood that protected me from the worst of my ASD.

I grew up in a really small town

and I was part of a large family, so I had a ready-made social network.

I just fit in.

But it was windy there.

Like, I grew up on a really small island on the northwest coast.

And it's like, it's famous for its fresh air.

Who knew?

I did.

I just told you.

And

so it's really windy.

And so I was always confused because wind throws sound around.

And so I was perpetually confused as a child.

Like, you know, I was always given names like, you know, dithery or vague or dopey and, you know, these sorts of things.

And I used to confuse people because on one hand, I could be incredibly intelligent and then as dumb as bricks.

And the older I got, the more people would read into that, the less adorable I became, and people would see it as willful or manipulative because I could

misunderstand what's going on and accidentally hurt people's feelings.

But

it would be an honest mistake on my behalf, but it would be difficult for people to believe that because,

you know, on the next breath, I could be incredibly intelligent.

And not knowing and not being able to sort of contextualize all that confusion for me was

difficult.

You talk about social situations, like social, and you describe it as

thinking that everyone's just saying what they mean.

Fix this for me.

You think everyone's just saying what they mean, and that's how you're operating, but you realize there's an undercurrent of things that people are communicating in ways that you're not picking up.

Is that yeah, yeah, there's no subtext for me.

Like, it blows my mind.

Um,

when you know, people are saying, I was just being polite, but really, you know, the person they were being polite to leaves and they're like, hate them.

I'm like, you were so nice to them.

How are they supposed to know?

I didn't know.

Now I was nice to the person I'm supposed to not like.

You know, and then, you know, you'd hear people deconstruct conversations and then they said this thing and that meant this and i'm like did it

i've learned so much it's these things

and then you know once i was diagnosed i was like you know what i don't actually care you go talk amongst yourselves i'm going to rearrange my furniture

so was it was freeing Was it tell me about, was it freeing?

Tell me about getting diagnosed.

Did it feel like something had been wrong with you that you didn't understand?

And now it didn't feel wrong anymore?

It felt like its own thing?

It felt like

an exfoliation of shame.

Oh, wow.

Because once you understand that you have ASD, you understand that there's not a lot in your control.

Like, then it's less about

being your bad person

for not caring about small talk.

And then you understand that it's not how you connect to other people.

You know, it's not how you connect to the world.

I connect through my passions and my interests.

And when someone who's neurodivergent wants to connect to the world and to people, it's through those things.

It's like, what is interesting?

And neurotypical people, it's like, what is important?

And it's, you know, neurotypical people interact, you know, connect face to face.

You know, it's like direct.

Whereas I'm into parallel play.

You know, if you want to get to know me, you go over there and do what you're doing.

I'll be in the the same room doing my thing and haven't we had a great time?

Not if, not if, not if they want to talk about their feelings.

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Well, you said when people come up to you individually to talk about your life or your feelings, you say,

no, I do that in bulk on stage.

Yeah, I'm like the Costco of

human interaction.

It's just like, we're just buying bulk and just a certain line of products, just one of each.

And I've never actually been to Costco.

That sounds like a nightmare to me.

It is.

Is Costco even a thing?

It's a nightmare.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's just,

yeah.

So it's a really bad metaphor for me because I hate

big shopping places.

Especially, yeah.

Anyway, so, but we'll keep going with it.

So it's sort of,

I've lost myself.

Hannah, my ex-husband, when I was married, used to sit down and say, no, somebody's a whole thing.

Used to sit down and say, so I heard, I read that your depression is back.

I read it in a magazine.

And he would try to talk to me about it.

And I would say, but just read the article again.

Like, I just, I wrote about it.

I did it in bulk.

Yeah, I feel like I kind of get where he's coming from there.

It's sort of like maybe he could have seen an advanced copy

going on.

This is like, you know, maybe a heads up.

Yeah.

We've altered that in our marriage, right?

Like before things go to press, you know,

can I help you edit your bulk

declaration of

situation?

It is a tricky thing.

Like, I think you just have to work out, like, with any relationship, I guess,

you have to just meet people where they're at.

When two neurodivergent people communicate, it's fluid.

When two neurotypical people talk to each other, it's fluid.

It's just when

uh the two meet it can be really really uh awkward and i've experienced that often but the thing is i have learnt the ways of the neurotypicals i have studied these people

um

you know like i i prepare for for neurotypical engagement i know i i'm trained in the art of small talk because i know it's important

uh the problem is is the privilege of neurotypical people is they don't have to learn how to parallel play with neuro, you know, they, what happened is you're pathologized.

It's like you're not communicating correctly, therefore, you are less than, you are not doing this right, you are weird.

You know, back in the day, they'd burn you at the stake, you know, like totally think I'm a witch.

Like, I think

that's what witches were, just neurodivergent women.

I'd totally float if you threw me in the river.

I, that,

blew my mind because I heard you say, ultimately, what I'm in the business of is to demand people be more aware of how and why they think

not what they think

because that's the reality of autism you have autism you have to think about how you think that's what you do and neurotypicals don't do that they just assume the way they think is right

i live with people who have some

sprinkling neurotypical sprinkling it's a veritable cornucopia over here yeah.

Yes, and that

thinking,

you know, turning that lens on myself and thinking, no, this is how you're thinking about it,

and that is why you're out of sync, not necessarily, not necessarily there's something

wrong or broken about the way they're thinking.

And

how do you think that people

who want to balance that

hierarchy as it's set up right now, who want to connect with people

who they love, who are neurodivergent, how do we begin to understand about how we think

that is building those barriers?

I think a really great place to start is not to take things personally.

and just move past it to the next thing.

It's really difficult, I think, with the parent-child relationship

because it's, you know, you don't have children don't have the language yet.

They're learning the language in order to, you know, then communicate

what issues are, what the problem are.

You know, what might look like as, you know, a tantrum is probably a sensory overload and it looks like a small problem.

So, you know, a parent might go, well, you know,

I'm taking you seriously, but really, you know, come on, this is,

you know, like, you don't like that.

Come on, clam down.

But what's happening is perhaps there's something about the sensory part of this process that seems insignificant to a neurotypical, but is,

you know, a war zone for someone on the spectrum.

There's an expected, you know, bond that's supposed to happen with parents and children that neurodiver children are always going to disappoint.

And I think one of the first things is like, yeah, you've got to stop taking that seriously.

I'm not saying, you know, I mean, you've got to take it seriously.

Sorry, words are my gift.

Personally, like, try and sort of

meet people where they're at.

And there's always going to be a lag with children because, especially, you know, if you have

difficulty with language,

it's going to take a while to sort of get to that place.

But

in the adult world, it is difficult for women on the spectrum.

Men get, you know, there is a certain place on the spectrum that, you know, is reserved for the great white geniuses, and they're allowed to hyper-focus on their special interest and be terrible at interpersonal communications.

And they're held up as the best of men.

But it's much more difficult for women because of the expectations

in the social network that we're supposed to uphold.

And when we fail, that is a failure of character.

And it's really difficult to sort of convince people that this is like, I can't do it any differently.

My brain is not wired to do what you want it to do.

Now what?

But we sort of get stuck on this, like, you're weird, you're doing this wrong.

You know, and it's, I

camouflage and mask a lot.

And that's an incredibly exhausting process.

Like,

so for this podcast, I had to prepare a lot.

Like I had to listen to your, not, it wasn't a chore.

Love your podcast.

Well done.

Keep up with your work.

But it wasn't,

it wasn't, it was really active engagement with it because in order to talk to three people at the same time,

I felt you know, like I had to make sure I understood the way that you speak, the cadence, your pitch, not as a way of familiarizing myself.

So when in the moment, hoping that I could hear what you're saying, process it, and then turn it around with reciprocal speech takes a huge amount of effort for me.

So what might look like, you know,

that's just a casual chat is

a marathon for me.

And so then that depletes your...

your energy levels.

And then once you, you know, I have meltdowns, I shut down mostly,

I just stop communicating.

And that's hard for people if they don't want to believe that it's not personal.

It's great.

It's a good life.

Love it.

How you just shared is so,

is such a gift.

I mean,

that's so important to understand

that

the work that you put in to showing up in a space,

I just feel like that's a gift for people to understand that.

And thank you for doing that for this.

No problems.

Hannah, can you talk to us?

No problems.

I outlined it, didn't I?

No problems.

No worries.

There's a lot of worry.

But no, we're cool.

Thanks.

How does ASD affect relationships?

Like what challenges, and

if there are gifts, what

are those?

Because you're in a relationship now.

Nailing it.

Nailing it?

yeah

the um before

there was a is there's a disconnect of what you know when i mask

i'm fine like people like you're normal you're a little bit quirky but you're normal um but you can't maintain that that's exhausting and so once you're spending your private time with someone um

you i begin to melt down so i will be react reactive i struggle to regulate my emotions when i'm under stress and i have a lot of trauma, big T's and little T's.

So, you know, that also affects your ability to

regulate.

So, you know, I can, I have been, you know,

you know, I can frighten people, you know, when I'm just trying to set, I have devastatingly simple needs, but if those needs aren't met, then I, you know,

can be snappy in a way that is not pleasant for other people.

And so I was laboring under the attention, you know, the false idea that, you know, that perhaps I was borderline abusive, but what was happening was my boundaries were not being respected.

And so I'd be a snappy Tom and they're like,

you know,

when I'm fine, I'm very easygoing.

And like, okay.

So it just seemed like I was Dr.

Jekyll, Mr.

Hyde.

And one of the, one of the really interesting ones for me is touch, because it's overwhelming for me.

And in a lesbian relationship, that what?

God, how are you supposed to do that?

It's all about the touch, isn't it?

Ah, touchy feeling.

And I'm like, ah, to let's talk about our feelings again.

And

just a light touch, like that's a universal standard, isn't it?

For like,

you know,

intimacy.

It's like just a nice soft touch.

And I flinch, you know, like, because that is a really horrible sensation for me so but not not knowing that people take that as rejection like it's like oh you you know you hate you find me repulsive like no just that touch

generally lovely um but it's really hard to communicate that when you don't know even when i did know i struggled for a while because it seems simple it doesn't seem like much

it's like you know if people kept not touching me with a firm touch and just a light touch, I kept flinching.

I kept flinching.

It builds up.

And it just doesn't,

it's a really easy fix, but the other person has to want to believe

that I don't like a light touch.

I don't know if I'm answering your question.

You are.

I have.

I have kind of a follow-up question, if you don't mind.

I love follow-up questions, Abby.

So thank you.

So in terms of like neurotypical, neurodivergent, it would be because I think, I mean, I actually, since we had our pre-call, I'm like, I think I want to get tested because I just feel like we all are somewhere on a spectrum.

Right.

And I think I've had learning stuff throughout my life that I want to just understand more.

But I think it's the role, like what happens is, is neurotypical people want to like fix this part maybe in you.

So like, let's go through a process, Hannah.

Is this like common?

Like, let's go through a process and work on this touch.

Like, like exposure therapy.

Yeah.

Like, let's, let's beat this out of you or pray it away like what have that has that ever happened in your life and like oh all the time and i do it to myself before i was diagnosed too so like because i'm a problem solve a problem solver's brain so like this is a problem i want to fix it and then so

like i experiment with fixing it and it's just like this you know ends up i've had so many major depressive episodes it's um it's almost funny again

um because it's that that overwhelm of putting yourself into these sort of situations that are overwhelming and um detrimental to your central nervous system and then you just can't cope and then it's like broadcast out

um and i will say this abby like you know do if you feel like there's something that i'm saying that is connecting to you and i've been speaking in very vague and and

and specific terms here and it is a very complicated thing

um

but do get yourself checked out because if you are it'll be a game changer.

And I will also say this, there is a very large

crossover between

autism and gender

ambivalence.

We'll call it ambivalence.

I'm going to call it gender ambivalence.

You know, because, you know, left to my own devices, like, whatever.

But people, neurotypicals, demand

that like.

front on like what are you but inside of me it's just like well it's just coming out how it's coming out isn't it like you need to deal with your feelings on this.

Um, but there are a lot of uh non-binary folk, trans folk, um, genderqueer folk on the spectrum.

Because I think there's something about the gender binary that does not make sense.

It is illogical, it is what is important, not what is interesting.

Interesting,

cool.

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Why is it so hard for girls to get diagnosed?

What is that about?

We present differently.

So

the idea of what autism is has been based and studied on, you know, young men,

white men, if we want to get specific, like

the biases that exist in science

everywhere in

all parts of

science, medicine, research,

you know, exist in this.

So, you know,

there are women of color on the spectrum, and a lot of them are running around not knowing it because it will be different again.

Because women are expected to behave in a certain way.

And as a culture, we've been trained to pathologize women who don't

behave in the correct way in the way that it is a character flaw.

It is, you're going to hell, you're not doing it right.

You know, it is that shaming.

And

so

if a young boy doesn't interact with his peers and he wants to identify every single dinosaur there is,

fine, that seems normal in a way.

But if a girl was to do that,

often their peers will identify it as wrong before parents will observe it and they begin masking.

So the masking thing in girls, because

you're watching your peers and you're like, they're doing these things, I should do these things.

And

so I think a lot of the time, not so much now, like it's opening up now, but I think women of my generation,

that's what it's happening.

Like you are, you're masking.

And you'll find people in their 40s having breakdowns all the time, women on the spectrum, undiagnosed women.

And it's similar to even our model of heart attacks, how women present very differently than men.

And so women are dying of heart attacks because their symptoms don't match.

Girls typically have

often a different presentation than boys.

It made sense when you said the exfoliation of shame, because girls are kind of in this lost period of masking and not being identified.

Then they're going through adolescence.

Then

they're being diagnosed with depression and anxiety as the primary reason for their struggles.

And oh, that's so hormonal.

And then they spend their whole lives thinking their lives aren't working out because of their depression and anxiety and not they're depressed and anxious because they've never been identified and and understood for who they are.

Yeah, I always sort of like to frame it as like, I always thought that I was struggling because I was depressed and anxious.

But then I realized I am depressed and anxious because I am struggling.

And so I never identified that I was struggling.

You know, that

like I didn't understand that I wasn't looking people in the eye and, you know, because I would just watch their mouths move.

And like I wasn't, didn't understand understand that I couldn't hear properly I can hear properly my hearings as my mum would call 2020 that's sight mum but I do I watch people's mouths and that's that helps me put together what they're saying

and so it's it's a lot of compensatory techniques that I use to to get through that but also it's it's about how trauma presents in neurodivergent people

is not the same so getting therapy is

fraught, particularly if the therapist doesn't know or you don't know, you know, so

this like, let's talk about this thing again,

let's talk about this thing again.

And that is so stressful.

Like, it is so stressful to be front-facing

to these things because the central nervous system is not cut out for that sort of onslaught.

So, it's

things compound.

And a lot of people, women on the spectrum, have complex PTSD

because these

small traumas are just

daily.

Can you talk to us about your decision to stop using self-deprecating humor about your body or about your sexuality or about your gender or any of it

in comedy?

Like, how did that come to you and what does it mean to you?

That's a long process.

When I first started doing comedy, I was quite monosyllabic and you know, I had to learn very,

you know, train very hard to modulate my voice and things like that.

But, you know, I was very deadpan and just used, worked with people's assumption on who I was and then subverted that.

But that in order to subvert people's assumption, you have to play in that

on that field.

You have to play that game.

And even if you're trying to subvert it, you're still kicking that ball around.

You're still kicking the stereotypes around.

You're still engaging with stereotypes.

And as I matured as a performer, I got bored with that.

That was no longer interesting, even though it was important to an audience.

And I began to feel very

disconnected.

So I, you know, about eight years into my career, I started going, this, I don't make sense on stage anymore.

And part of that was early on, you know, I do stand-up and then during festivals, I'd work with like a gallery and do comedy art lectures.

Now, we worked out, I wanted to do comedy art tours, but turns out I'm not a natural leader.

So

I'd be going, right, well, we'll go and look at this painting now.

And I'd go over there and I'd stand and everyone's like, oh, we'll go over here.

And like, I'm like, no one's following me.

So we worked out

quite quickly

that I have to, people have to be seated facing me, stuck.

And then they'll be like, oh, you're actually quite interesting.

All right.

But

so I do comedy art lectures.

And what I discovered there is I became what's known as a high status comic when I'm talking about my special interests.

Because I'm passionate.

I'm talking as an, you know, with my autism first.

It's like, this is what I'm interested in.

And, you know, people love these.

They're really popular.

And I love doing them.

And I felt good on stage.

And I'm like, this is me being autistic it's me like being funny as a you know

without masking

and in my comedy though when i'm trying to explain myself and go you know like it's very hard for me to do observational humor because it's like i'm not looking at the same things everyone says like you you know you know what it's like and people like no

No, what you're speaking of is not familiar.

So you have to do a lot of explaining.

And then, so in that, I folded in a lot of masking.

And then that becomes confusing as you get older and more mature and you like who you are.

You're just like, this is not a true representation of how I see the world or how I think people, you know, like I'm softening myself.

I'm, you know, I'm apologizing.

I'm like, hey, it's weird that I'm like this, isn't it?

And they're like, ah, yeah, it is.

And then eventually I just broke.

I said, you know what?

It's not.

It's weird that you don't notice that people are different.

And that

very much informed my desire to stop being self-deprecating because I just wanted to be autistic.

I didn't want, I just wanted to go, hey, I've got some stuff to talk about.

And whatever feelings you have about what this is, you need to get over it because I've got things to say.

And that is part of the reason.

The other part of the reason is, come on.

Like, why, particularly women, why do we have to put ourselves down in order to speak in public?

It hasn't changed.

I get, still get all the hate mail that you want.

Like, take a pick.

Like,

men have been trained not to like women who speak their mind in public.

It's, it's a thing.

We're not going to change it soon.

We're going to have to grin and bear it, but I may as well grin and bear it being confident.

Yeah.

So I just want to talk about.

Bet you do.

You do.

I just want to talk forever, but we only have 15 minutes so here's what i want to talk about now fast money ran this is what's interesting to me

is

the journey that you and your mom have taken but that

in terms of the journey you've taken to figure out what comedy is to you you had a moment with your mom where she was talking about not having regretted anything and you said is there anything maybe

yeah well she said this thing she's like she's like i'm really proud I like impersonating my mom.

I'm really proud that I brought my kids up without religion.

I really am.

Because I've raised five children with minds of their own.

I'm really proud of that.

And I'm like, well, don't you, mum, you pat yourself on the back, good on you.

And I was just sort of like, she's having a feeling, like a moment, and I missed it because I think

we know why.

And so I said, oh, yeah, well,

what

parenting decisions do you regret, mum?

And there's there's a laundry list I thought she'd go and we talk like that a little bit.

Like I'll say to mum, mum used to scare the bejesus out of me when I was growing up.

She said, Good, I didn't like you that much.

Like, and it's like it's it's funny, like we're being funny.

It's quite Australian.

I think this horrifies some American audiences when I say that.

It's like, it's fine.

But

She wasn't going there.

So she was being thoughtful.

And then she just said a thing that blew my mind.

And it was the sea that came to my, became my show, Nanette, where she's like, oh, the decision, you know, the thing I regret is that I raised you as if you were straight.

And I'm like, I just like, because when you, when you, the coming out story is all about, will people accept you?

And mum just did all this work and I didn't know.

She went way back and she went to a place that not many people are at now.

She's like pushing 80.

And she's like,

oh, I shouldn't have assumed you were straight.

And I wasn't your friend.

And I should have been.

She said, I knew.

I'm just committing to mum's voice here.

She's like, I wanted you to change because I knew the world wouldn't.

And she's right.

The world didn't change.

she's like and i was just sort of like because when you when you're coming out it's overwhelming like you're just ready for the rejection it's all and it is all about you it has to be all about you but the telling of our coming out stories telling of a lot of trauma stories we are freeze framing on that moment of trauma and we don't

then have a lot of public discussions about these moments

uh because we live in a you know a punishment society like we don't give room

for restorative justice, let's call it.

And the art history informed that part of it for me.

So mum mum said this to me, but also because I was thinking a lot about Proto-Renaissance, I made these connections.

And this is the gift of autism.

Like, you make connections, your brain has more connections going on.

And so,

in art history, I don't know if you know this, but it's a myth where people sort of like, oh, back in the day, not everyone could read.

So, they learned from paintings and pictures.

And that is not correct.

They learnt through oral storytelling.

Like, stories would be told.

Stories are familiar.

And the art played a purpose of freeze framing the stories into familiar parts of the stories, points of the stories.

So,

you know, the most famous one, I guess, is Christianity has been frozen to the crucifixion.

Now, there is a big story, but that is the freeze frame is on that moment.

And that is a big decision.

Like, because from that freeze frame, you can leverage a lot of shame and

guilt, because that's like, that's your fault.

But there are some great stories in that whole narrative, but that freeze frame.

And, you know, in mythology, it's the same thing.

It's like a lot of stories are freeze framed at the moment.

A woman happens to be nude.

That is a.

That is a strong freeze frame there.

So, so art history has this tendency to freeze frame.

And I think generally our storytelling sort of circles trauma

and then solves it in a whodune it kind of way.

And then we don't have stories that then

talk about, hey, I went through trauma, but I'm all right.

Like, this doesn't define me.

Fucked me up for a bit.

Sorry, language.

But, you know, like older women have these stories where they can put into connect you know context in their entire life like they're not you know and i was just missing those stories in the public sphere i know so many old ladies and they're just like yeah

yeah he's an idiot they're all idiots but they're fine um

and you know i just wanted to put that breath into my own story.

It's just like, you know, in my comedy, I made a lot of comedy out of the way my mum reacted.

And it was a way of like

paved the way for my own healing, to be able to make fun of it.

You need the jokes, but it then,

you know, it stops our ability to talk about

the evolution on both sides.

And

we're obsessed with trauma points.

in our storytelling culture.

Like news is nothing but scattergun trauma porn.

Like we always know what's going wrong, but we never know how stuff resolves.

And I think public,

you know, displays of

resolution are important and missing.

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Can I read you one quote that you from your book that you said about your family?

Sure.

That I think is so important.

So we'd have to say no.

Yeah, it would be weird, but I would, I would honor you.

We would respect it.

Yeah.

This is about your mom having a very hard time with you coming out at first.

But you said our family unit had been collateral damage, nothing more than pawn porn for the juvenile and toxic political games being played out well above our heads.

That is the shit that ruined my life.

Yeah, and that's happening now.

Right.

Right now, to particularly trans kids now, because we're not talking about their humanity, we're talking about whether or not their gender is right.

And we're like, we're talking about whether we can solve gender right now.

And that's, it's a political point.

I see it.

It's doing my head in.

Like, I, it's breaking my heart.

It is excruciating to watch.

We, as adults, are making the same mistakes.

The way we speak about these subjects are in terms of like, I am right, you're wrong.

It's just like, can we just, can we just agree that we don't know what the hell we are?

And just

give people what they need

and not pathologize.

But this is like it is happening now as we speak.

The trans kids are being politicized.

That is exactly what happened to me.

Some families are reacting badly to their humanity.

And I think your point is so important: that those families, those parents, are pawns.

They have been duped.

They have been tricked.

They have been preached to by higher powers that have taught them to fear their children.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, how is it going with your mom now?

How does she feel about your new book?

Did she read it?

It's all lies.

I'm not going to read it.

Like, she's a bit scared.

And fair enough.

Like, you know, fair enough.

It's her story too.

And I've got complete control over it.

So she's good.

She's great.

She's both my parents are good.

I don't know.

Like, dad was really sick when I was going through the

Nanette of it all.

And one of my first, you know, one of my last edits of the book, I think I forgot to tell people that he's fine because it's like he's dying of melanoma and he got some experimental treatment and it turns out it was a good experiment i mean who knows you know i don't even know what it was could be wombat blood we don't know but he's fine now um

but it was like my

my mum and my dad a chalk and cheese and i think say that explicitly in the book and he's just so accepting he's like oh yeah good one But mum,

like,

has a reaction, then she goes away, and then she has a think about it, and then she has another reaction, and then she has to think about it.

So, that's what's happening now.

She's having to think about it, having reactions, having thoughts.

That's why we love her.

Do you feel she called it?

Well, you called it in the book, and by the way, you did say your dad was okay.

There was one little part of it.

I had to add that in.

They're like, We need to know because

there is no resolution there.

I'm like, Oh, yeah, but he's fine.

They are facts.

It was a very small sentence, just so you know.

Yeah,

but it was there.

It wasn't important.

Or interesting?

I don't know.

Yeah, it wasn't interesting.

Your mom, you called it pinning butterflies.

Yeah.

The freeze frames of people's relationships or lives.

Do you feel scared of that now that you have that understanding that telling stories about other people is kind of pinning butterflies?

I'm just wondering if you feel scared about your work going forward because I do.

I feel scared about telling stories about people suddenly.

Look,

I think it's important to just tell stories.

I think it's important to leave flexibility in the weave.

The problem comes when people hold you to things and go, you're not allowed to evolve.

Like that is the receiving of the story.

It's just like, but I think there's an enormous amount of healing that goes into the craft of

a narrative.

And that's what I do.

I spend a lot of time working out how to tell stories.

And through that, I learn what part of the story is important to me.

And, you know, working on stage a lot, my stories evolve

sometimes to their detriment.

So, you know, my coming out story, for instance, was designed to make people laugh.

And that's where the issue was, because the punchline was enough.

But I think telling stories, I'm not frightened.

I have a,

I operate on the premise that it's okay to recede into the background and no one remembers who the hell I am.

And I just work on the craft and then everything else will work itself out.

And with that,

Hannah, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for all of the work that you did.

No problem.

I would just like to acknowledge that I don't think I answered many questions directly, but I said a lot of information after you stopped talking.

And interesting information and important information.

Time will tell.

We won't listen to time regardless.

But please also thank Jenny.

And

just again, thank you, Hannah.

Absolute pleasure.

Keep it real, guys.

Keep on trucking.

You're the best.

Thanks.

Thank you.

See ya.

Thank you.

Okay.

What I want to say for our next right thing today, it's not really a thing.

This is a next right idea.

Okay.

One of the things that I connect so much with Hannah on is that her major sensitivity and her,

she has incredible soundries.

Okay.

Sounds are important to her.

She has offered me strategies about how when Abby sneezes loudly, I can be startled because there's no way I can not be startled.

I will always be startled.

But Hannah described for me a way that I can decide in my own self what's next after the startle.

I don't have to become furious after the startle.

I didn't know that.

Sister, I didn't know that.

Like she told me that when Abby sneezes.

Okay, so let's let's play this out.

Okay.

Here I go.

Okay, sneeze.

Ha-choo.

Okay.

Well, that's not how it sounds, but it's not the way it sounds.

That's a false representation of the Abby sneeze.

Right.

It's an Olympic gold medal sneeze.

I'm just being polite here.

It is.

It's like an alarm has gone off in our home.

So let's say I'm doing the dishes or something, and that sneeze happens out of the blue.

And I immediately, my entire body reacts.

I, my body freaks out.

I am going to freeze.

Startled.

You go to

freeze.

You freeze.

Hannah taught me after that, I can just go with it.

I'm startled.

Ooh.

Oh, I'm startled.

Oh,

like there's an energy of startled can just go to like, I'm on a roller coaster.

Like, I don't have to then become utterly furious that this thing has startled me.

So

yes, it's like transmutation of the energy.

That's right.

It's like I can't control.

Go with it, she said.

I can't control my startle, but I can control what happens after the startle.

And that comes with time.

So I'm going to work on it.

Okay.

I have no idea why I started to tell that story, but here's the next straight idea.

Okay.

This is just one quote from Nanette, which

daily I think about it.

Okay.

And I just feel like it's very important for all of our pod squatters, many of whom are sensitive human beings.

Like all of them are here.

Okay.

Listen.

Hannah godsby says when people say i'm too sensitive i feel a bit like a nose being lectured by a fart

that's

we're just gonna leave that with you okay do not let farts

tell you that you are too sensitive Wow.

Okay.

I'm so impressed that you just said fart.

I know.

I said it.

I don't say fart.

I don't say fart.

But I'm saying fart, fart, fart, because it's so important to the message.

Yeah.

Okay.

I have another thing that I had a moment when she was speaking.

And when she was talking about how her mom said,

I'm so sorry that I raised you straight.

And I think that

that's something that we can think about and be like, oh, that's right.

But then

she talks about how

when she was growing up, right, you know, she'd be playing by herself.

She'd say, I don't want to go to that birthday party.

I don't want to.

And, and

as a parent, they'd say, but you're sad.

You're sad if you don't go to the birthday party.

And she's like, I'm not sad.

And I think sometimes I,

although I would never raise my kid with the assumption that they're straight and look at them that way,

I think that I can very easily raise my kids with the assumption that they're neurotypical oh

so if i see

a group of kids playing and my daughter playing separately on her own i feel intense pain and i project on her loneliness and sadness

and

um separateness

but that's raising her like a straight kid.

That's raising her like a neurotypical kid.

I just really got that from today's podcast.

I want to let my kid be exactly who they are without

projecting

what the world will see them as.

I just want to see them through their own eyes and their own experiences.

Amen.

That's the next straight thing.

It's like what Hannah's mom said.

I wish I had been your friend.

Yeah.

Meaning like, I wish I hadn't been a fixer of you.

I wish I had just been a friend to you.

So beautiful, y'all.

All right.

And the thing that she, her mom said, I thought the world

wasn't going to change.

So I thought I would have to change you.

It's like we get so scared for our children and we bring to them the very fear.

that we're afraid that the world will bring to them.

We bring it to them.

Sister, thank you for that.

So good.

We'll see you next week on We Can Do Hard Things.

Love you guys.

Love you.

I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle.

I walked through fire.

I came out

the other side.

I chased desire.

I made sure I got what's mine.

And I continue to believe

that I'm the one for me.

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line.

Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks on map.

A final destination

lap.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to belong.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a hard pain.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem,

Sometimes things fall apart.

And I continue to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took some time,

but I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks on that.

A final destination

we lack.

We stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home

and through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we

can do a heart again.

and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay.

That we've stopped asking directions

in some places

they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home

and through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do hard

things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do hard

things.

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