68. SARAH PAULSON IS PLAYING GLENNON ON TV!!

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And I continue to believe

the best

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Hello.

I don't know if I've been more excited about a show or to tell you this cool thing that I've been holding inside of me.

I have been working really hard with a few amazing people to take the magic and the fire and the love in the untamed book and turn it into a TV show

to come into your living rooms.

And I haven't really wanted to talk about it much, even though it's been going on for a long time, because I feel like when I talk about things too early, that I'm making, they like lose all of the magic.

Like, I need the

containment to build the pressure of it inside of me, or something.

So,

so I've been keeping it to my little self.

Um,

but we have kind of a milestone right now, which is that we are getting ready to take the beginnings of this project we've made and try to find a hope for it.

So we thought we'd celebrate that by sharing with you today,

first

on the We Can Do Hard Things podcast,

the person who is going to play me in the untamed TV show.

So today we are joined by

her.

You're about to find out who she is.

Big hint is she is a she

And I'm so freaking excited to introduce you to her and her to you.

Many of you are going to already know and love and adore her.

But if you don't know her yet, you'll be in love with her in the next hour.

She has become such a force and friend to me, just so important to me and to our family.

And I cannot wait for...

the magic that we're all going to make together.

So today she joins us.

Let's jump right into our conversation.

Okay, so.

So I would like an apology from my wife.

Okay, we're going to start We Can Do Hard Things by apologizing.

I am sorry, Abby, for not handling the technical difficulty that we just had with the grace that you have come become accustomed to in moments of crisis from me.

Got it.

Okay.

Thank you.

I feel better.

Okay, everything's fine.

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Bless you for having missed the last five minutes where the tech went wrong and my life was over, but my life is back.

And I'm glad because there's no way I could be more excited for the next hour, which in my defense is why I wanted everything to go perfect, which is why I was so upset before.

Okay.

Here we go.

So

what we're about to do, dear listener of We Can Do Hard Things.

is we are about to share with you top secret.

This top secret magical information, which is that as you know, we can do hard things, listeners, untamed is being made into a TV show.

This is not the big news.

Exciting, but not the big news.

But I, in my little sweaty heart, have known

the person that I needed

the universe.

The only person.

The only person that I needed the universe to provide

to play me

in the untamed show that I have always known in my little sweaty heart.

One shot.

One shot for this human.

We're going to go down to, are we going to start Eminem literally?

They say to me, give me your list.

What is your list?

I say, here is my list.

They say, your list has one person on it.

I say, I realize this might be difficult for us.

This is not a good definition of list.

We've only got one shot.

Do not

miss your chance.

Sarah opportunity.

Opportunity comes once in a lifetime.

Sarah Paulson

comes once in a freaking lifetime.

That is actually right.

And tragically, I was not the only one who knew this.

The whole universe knew this.

And so that's why it was going to be tricky.

So,

first of all, hello, Sarah Paulson.

I love you forever.

That was quite an introduction.

Quite an introduction.

Hi, Glennon.

Hi, Abby.

Hi, Amanda.

Hi.

I'm starstruck about Amanda.

Is that weird?

I know.

Isn't she striking?

I just feel starstruck because, you know, I've seen her a lot, but this is our first real,

aside from share the mic now when I was, you were there a lot, but this is really our first like eye contact, you know?

I know.

It's like looking at the sun looking at you, Sarah Paulson.

My God.

And are you in the closet?

Are you in a closet, Sarah Paulson?

We're just going to call you Sarah Paulson the whole time.

Okay.

I'm in my closet.

I'm in a closet in my home.

Not the only closet, but this one is the one I chose.

Yeah, there's this one.

It's got sweaters and I thought I needed soft things.

Yeah.

How do I sound?

Am I too close to the mic?

Maybe a smidge.

Oh.

I'm like your honesty.

But I don't care because, like I said before, you are perfect and everything you do is perfect forever.

So what I want to say to you, Sarah, and what I want to introduce the world to is how we came to each other.

Because for a very long time, we had a sad relationship where I was the only one who knew how close we were.

And honestly, I felt like it was a little lopsided and non-reciprocal.

But the team

of people from Bad Robot, Jesse Nelson, and this team that was making this show knew that Sarah Paulson was the North Star of this.

And so at one point, they said, we're going to have to ask her to do it

if you're going to continue to be certain about it.

And I said, that doesn't, is there any other way?

And so they recommended that I write you a letter,

which is why, because they didn't want me to speak to you in person yet.

Because

they wanted us to have a shot, which is wise, because Sarah might right now be reconsidering this

whole situation.

She is not.

She's never been more excited about anything, truly.

Ever.

Ever.

That's the truth.

You can see as evidenced by what I think is about to happen now.

If it's happening now, is it happening now?

Yeah, let's do it.

So I'm going to read.

the email that I sent to you.

And am I reading the one I send back?

Would you like to?

I mean, I don't like acting on the spot.

I would like to hear your interpretation.

Okay.

So I think that that would be kind of great.

Yeah.

So so so I'm going to be Sarah Paulson.

This will be so funny.

In a minute.

Okay.

So this is what I wrote to you.

Dearest Sarah, everything is hard right now.

I like to just start with that just as a level setter in all the things I say.

The way I love the world when things are hard is to keep creating beautiful, true, hopeful things.

And the way I love myself is to co-create those things with beautiful, true, hopeful people.

To that end, I have forever worshipped you as an actor.

I understand that this is not a unique experience as the entire world worships you as an actor.

I will tell you this, I never imagined I'd dare to ask you to play me.

I thought you were too elegant, sophisticated, cool.

I am many things, but cool is not one of them.

I am warm, toasty, sweaty even.

Then,

you showed up at our first Share the Mic Now call.

You were goofy.

You were real and present and so open-hearted and vulnerable.

A little sweaty even.

And you took the action seriously.

You were careful.

You cared about the women involved.

After Share the Mike ended, I began watching every interview you've ever done and reading every article ever written about you.

Sarah.

Untamed is, on the surface, a sexy, funny, modern classic love story between two women.

Underneath it is a story about women breaking free from conditioning and tribalism to save ourselves, each other, and the planet.

The reason the book is selling at astronomic levels is that this is what's needed in this exact moment.

We need a woman to lead us out of the matrix of patriarchal capitalistic white supremacy.

But we need her to do it a little clumsily and sweatily and simply by trying to live her own fucking life.

Now I ask you, who the hell else can play this role but you?

You are already this role.

Your lifelong resistance to labels and commitment to creating a life and love of your own, your activism and love for others, your twinkly eyes.

Are you aware that every few words you say, your eyes twinkle?

I am obsessed with eye twinkles because they are proof that a woman is up to something.

Dear God, give me a woman who is up to something.

And Sarah, your constant ability to sway between the dark and the light, the way you stay joyful while rushing towards the hard stuff, the pain of the world.

I like how you use your life and talent and fire and power, Ms.

Paulson.

I really want you to play me.

I want to make something together that the entire world can claim as a moment of hope and beauty and a map of the way forward.

I want to make something that the queer community can claim as our own celebration and proof of what we've always known: that the best life lies just beyond where they told us to stay.

We would have so much fun.

We would have so much fun.

Love Glennon.

Oh my God.

One of the great emails of all time, I think.

Wow.

Personally.

She'll really get you.

So I send it.

I send it.

And then I sweat.

But I think only like two days later,

I get back this email.

Quick turnaround.

It just says this.

Okay.

Let me be frank.

I have never gotten an email that made me sweat and cry and sweat and laugh and sweat and cry and sweat whilst, that's right, whilst

making my hands shake a little.

Also, did I mention the sweating?

Glennon.

Glennon.

Glennon.

I,

I,

I

truly don't even know what to say or where to begin.

Okay.

Here's what I know: I revere you, top to toe.

I love that line.

I cannot believe that you want me to play you.

I feel, I feel, I have so many feelings.

Always with the one million feelings.

Is this email making you rethink things?

I'm sorry.

I will stop shouting now.

All caps, all caps.

Line break.

We take a breath.

I would be so honored.

I would be so blessed.

I would be so scared.

I would feel so incapable.

I would do it anyway.

I'm sure I'm not supposed to tell you all these things that I'm feeling,

but I don't know how else to do,

well, life, really.

Your letter made me feel like I could fly.

More soon.

Sweaty Paulson.

I think that's a pretty good email, too.

I have to say.

Mostly just because it was, it is just me.

represented as clearly as I possibly can represent myself.

There's not a single hyperbolic, even though I, on the face of it, I can imagine someone going, this is not, who could possibly, but it's, that's just me.

Yeah, it is.

In a nutshell, in little words, put to letters put together that form words.

Oh, it is.

So, Sarah,

at the point that you reached, that this email reached you,

you could play anybody in the whole world, right?

You are,

sister, can you read her just actual bio real quick?

Oh, God.

Oh, God.

It would be a damn honor.

I mean,

it would take the hour, so I'm just going to condense it.

But

as you know,

Sarah Paulson is the first person to ever, that's ever in the whole wide world, win all five major TV awards in one year, sweeping the Emmy, Golden Globe, SAG, Critics Choice, and Television Critics Association Awards for her portrayal of Marsha Clark in FX's People vs.

OJ Simpson.

She starred in the run,

which was the most watched original film on Hulu.

She stars mesmerizing Ratchet.

Ratchet.

Ratchet.

Eerily Transcendent as Linda Tripp in impeachment, both of which she also executive produces, as well as as Complex as They Come in the Academy Award-winning film 12 Years a Slave.

She is a Sagittarius, an Aquarius Moon, a Virgo Rising.

She's afraid of flying.

She loves watching the real housewives.

And most importantly, she and Holland Taylor are mothers to two absolutely perfect rescue pups, Winnie and Louise.

Oh, wow.

That got all the good stuff.

That's all the good stuff.

Good job, Sarah.

Good job, Sarah Paulson.

So funny when you hear it sort of spelled out like that, it's like, oh, all those things I have told myself about.

Maybe it's not.

going well or maybe i haven't done it and then i go oh wait a minute you're talking about me that's wild that is wild wild i feel like i wish every listener of We Could Do Hard Things when they wake up in the morning could just get a bio read.

Yes.

Somebody read them a bio before they get out of bed.

Everybody's done a lot of good shit.

It's so hard to remember when you're in the thick of your day and you just go, wait a minute, everything feels so hard.

And then you're like, but wait, I've done, I've done some hard things.

Yes, that's right.

So why then you're in, you know, that this point, you can do any role.

Like, why did you, why, Untamed, why did you say yes to this role?

Oh my god okay well you know i told i i think i told you this a little bit that i was convinced it would be a different actress and i don't know if i'm supposed

yes

i thought it would for sure be rhys witherspoon i thought for sure i remember you know i was following the whole launch of the book and abby you know getting you on the speakerphone with Reese and the book being chosen for, you know, it just was, I just thought, oh, it's going to be Reese.

It's going to be Reese.

It's going to be Reese.

And of course, why shouldn't it be Reese?

Reese is incredible.

And then I thought, well, that'll that'll never be me and then I thought it would be Kristen Bell then I thought it would be you know a lot of sort of I don't know very um uh charming littler you know I'm a little taller than you I don't know how maybe I'll play the part on my knees I'm not quite sure what we'll do but like knees and shoes on me because you're like you're like we compare you know I'm like a um so I just thought

I don't know.

I just, I thought it would never be me, but I dreamt about it being me.

And I would, I would watch you

read passages of the book, every place I could possibly watch you read passages of the book.

And I kept thinking, I don't know.

You know, sometimes there are these,

and I know you'll know what I'm talking about, these things that are impossible to describe, but this sort of feeling I felt in my body that it should be me.

Just thought it should be me.

And I didn't even know it was going to be made into.

a television program for people to watch but i just thought if they make this when they make this it should be me it won't be me, but it should be me.

And I think the reason I want to do it is because I'm terrified of failing, which is a barometer I often use for the things that I know I must do.

So I didn't know it was going to come to me, but I thought it should be me and I didn't know why and I couldn't explain why, but just something about it just, I almost sometimes get a, this is going to make it sound like I think I'm some kind of psychic friends network person, but I'm not.

But I had this like shaky feeling when I would see you read it and I would watch you and Abby and I would see interviews with you and sister.

And I just thought, this is something is, I just would get a little shaky.

And I didn't know why.

And then when I got your email, that's why, even though the email seems a little over the top, my response.

We don't do over the top.

We really do.

We don't do over the top.

This is just, this is just really what I felt and I couldn't believe that it was happening.

I couldn't believe it.

But it terrifies me.

It terrifies me because

you belong to people is what I feel.

There are people who kind of claim you

and need you

and all that you represent to feel brave enough, I think, to take steps, to make

just little movement, even internalized movements, anything.

I think you really are a North Star for a lot of people.

And I feel that is an enormous responsibility to

that people will have attachments to the you that is the you for them.

And I will, of course, try to do that, but it also has to be sort of filtered through the you that is you that I see, you know, and that, um, because that is the ultimate thing too, is that you have to, you're going to sort of

give this over.

Not that you won't be around for all of it and tell me when I'm doing it wrong, which

no, because I won't know.

No, I won't, you will.

You'll be like, that doesn't, that doesn't feel like me.

Like, I sometimes think about like, will I do a voice?

Will I try to do your voice?

Will I not try to do your voice?

All these things that I'm already thinking about.

And there's so many things we still don't know yet.

So,

you know, I just don't want to mess up what, you know, but I do believe that sometimes that is, for me anyway, a incredible motivator

for like a lockdown, deep dive to sort sort of block out the fear component and just focus on the only way for me to deal with the fear is to focus on the act of the doing and learning everything I can and and

you know so the fear the fear is mostly why I want to do it and also you're the greatest person who ever lived oh

I agree and I think it's so fascinating that to be such a high performer

you are there's only one greater one and that's Sarah Paulson.

I don't think so.

Might be Abby.

I know.

It's weird.

And also you and also sister.

That's a weird thing.

I just said, honey, you are the greatest person.

And my wife just said, Sarah Paulson, you actually are the other one.

That's right.

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what do you do like when you said right now, you're trying to figure out.

Can you just, again, I'm dripping with sweat right now.

I'm sweating too.

I'm sweating.

Okay.

Whew, this is a sweaty one.

Can you talk about what do you do?

Like you're trying to figure out

how to play someone.

Like freaking Linda Tripp.

Yeah, you got your eyebrows back.

I see they.

Oh, they grew in.

Good job.

They grew in.

Congratulations.

Thank you, because it really was a very painful time for me.

i mean can you imagine if you just took your eyebrows off your face what you might feel about that like it doesn't seem it's a sort of silly attachment to have to one's eyebrows but really think about taking them off your face

it's all of a sudden the distance between and also i have a bit of a high forehead that's not my so if you take the eyebrows away you got a five half between the top of the eyelid and the top of the head is too big it's too big and so it's hard and it was hard for me to feel.

You know, you're playing a character at work 16, 18 hours a day, great, nothing I could want to do more.

It was a heaven on earth to me, but then you come home and you still have nothing on your face that used to be there, and so it's like you're still Linda Tripp at home, but you're you.

It's really unpleasant.

That was the most unpleasant part of it.

I had no eyebrows on my face.

How is Holland?

How did Holland deal with this?

You know, this is one of those moments where it was very clear to me that this person loves me

because she always was so, she said, I think you look beautiful.

All I can do is see your beautiful features.

I mean, I'm not going to say what she says to me because it will sound self-aggrandizing.

And that's not, I'm not in the market of that.

It's uncomfortable for me.

But she made me feel,

you know, I had to gain weight for it.

My body changed.

My eyebrows were gone.

I had these hideous nails that I lived with for these, like, no offense to all the people who love an acrylic nail.

It's not my jam.

I don't love it.

They were, they were like square 90s French tip.

Okay.

And it was almost a year of this and I couldn't take them off.

So I would come home hairless, you know, with a body I didn't recognize with, you know, hands that weren't mine.

It just was a trying time.

And this is the part that is a little deranged is that I kind of get off on it.

I'm like, look at me.

I'm, I'm allowing my body to be taken over by another person and I'm that committed.

And then there are other moments where I'm like, what was I thinking?

This was a horrible mistake.

And for what?

You know, to like embody this other person to then let, I don't know.

It just, it's a, it's a really weird thing to choose to do with your life.

It's like, how are you going to transform to be like Glennon?

Well, because you do transform.

That's the thing about you.

It is so,

there are so many people who just.

who you're like, oh yeah, that's that person playing someone, but that's not what the experience is.

Watching you act is freaking weird it's like yeah i'm like an actual transcript i hate her i hate her why do i hate her she's my friend and i hate her or she's just like brilliant at getting you to see the whole full humanity of a human being because she doesn't play a character she plays a human being every time all the prism of it so what the hell and how and wtf what the hell and how do you do that how are you prepared to do play me do you can i ask you a question to maybe answer expression i i could no more explain to you how how i do it or what it is i can tell you all the like

i will work with a movement person and you probably you move in ways i don't think you know but you're going to become aware of them

you can say that again yeah she doesn't have any idea you're going to become aware of the way you walk and the way i could help

yeah

I mean it's beautiful.

It's not bad.

Like you're making a face.

Like it's bad.

It's just like the way you are.

Yeah.

And it's the way you are.

It's the Glennon isms.

There'll be things, you know, I will watch more video of you than you've ever watched of yourself.

I remember having a conversation once

with someone who was married to a person on Saturday Night Live.

And she told me that the only way that he did what he did was he would pick like one.

All you have to do is pick like one undeniable physical communication of a person, like something that everybody notices right away.

And whether you notice, you notice it or not, maybe not even a thing, but it's the way they move their hair or what they do with their hands.

And it will sell it if they've got all the right things on in the costume and stuff.

So there's a version of that.

Like I remember with Linda Tripp, the woman I worked with, whose name is Julia Crockett, who you will come to know, and she's an incredible person.

I'm not a singer.

I apologize for that moment.

Neither is Glenn, and so we're good.

We got a couple of good, I hope we have a singing moment in the show where I can try to

do that.

But she watched so much tape of Linda and she, we, there were some things Linda did that if I did them, you would turn the television.

She had a blinking thing that was very intense.

And I thought, well, I I can't do, I can't do that blinking thing.

It will be so distracting.

And so there'll probably be things about your physical self that I won't do because maybe it would be a lot.

Like the voice.

Like me.

No, I think I have to say, good morning, everybody.

Good morning.

Good morning.

Good morning, everybody.

Good morning.

Hi.

Good morning.

I don't know.

I mean, this is just like my my initial hit on it that, that is like not with any work on it at all.

So it will be better than that.

But it'll be a thing you'll decide.

You'll go,

I can't, that feels too, I don't know.

I don't know how any of it will happen.

I just know that it will.

Yeah.

I'm trying to embrace this new thing in 2022 for myself, which I have never, never dipped my toe into, which is allowing myself to be confident that I can do what I have spent 20 years of my life doing.

I have spent an enormous amount of time fertilizing this part of my being that thinks that in order to do my job well, I have to be disparaging about my own abilities.

I have to not bring

self-reverence.

I'm not allowed to sort of acknowledge that.

And it's like we all, I think, collectively,

I know that I've been guilty of this, like.

a confident woman freaks me the F out.

Like I get so freaked.

And it's because I don't operate that way that I allow myself to decide that it's somehow negative that a woman would, you know, think that they're good at what they do, that a human being would allow.

But I think men get such a sort of broader, there's so much latitude for them to embrace their

greatness.

Whereas I think as women, it's really hard for us to do confidently.

And some of that is from the dangerous things that happens, the interplay between women, about not wanting that from other women and feeling so threatened by it.

And so I am trying so hard to acknowledge that I have spent over 20 years doing what I do.

And there were times when I didn't know that I knew more and less, but I have to acknowledge at my current age that

I know how to do it.

It doesn't mean that I will always do it well, because I do believe in that thing of like the Marsha Clark thing was.

I was the right person to play that part.

And it was a magic alchemy and synergistic thing across the board and there are other things that i've done since and that i will do in the future that will either have that or won't and some of it we can't control but i can acknowledge that i know i will i will do my absolute best and that will be good enough that's right that is right what do you think are when you think about playing this role are there things that you see for yourself now i know you're going to point and i so i'm going to stop

do you when you were at my house and we were chatting on your hands?

I was so chatting on your hands.

I was so, yes, I get self.

I'm like, oh, wait, am I doing a thing that she's going to notice and start doing?

Okay.

My question is, if I remembered how to breathe or move, what I would say is,

are there things that you find are similar about us and are different?

Like what thing about me or the me from Untamed or the me that you watch in videos feels like something that you're tapping into because they're similar.

And what do you feel like are a huge difference between us?

I think there are more

alignments in our

essential being, I think.

I really do feel this, which is why when I would think that it was going to be Kristen Bell, I would get so upset because I'm like, I don't know if she's the same, that I'm the same, like Glennon inside.

I'm like Glennon inside.

Kristen Bell is great.

She's the greatest ever.

Did you see that sloth video on Ellen?

Like, there's nobody better or greater ever.

But that's really how I feel.

And I don't know why, except for the things that I do know about why.

But

in terms of the differences, you are

braver than I am, I think.

I think you are.

I understand why you're making that face, but I do think you are.

I do know why you're making the face, but I do think you are.

I just, um, because let me say this: here's why.

You, I hide behind character.

My self gets revealed in the roles that I'm playing, right?

And if, if people are paying attention, they might notice some

like connective tissue that's in each character that they might be able to connect to something about me.

You are you out in the world as you.

You are not hidden.

You are, you are not, you are, you are, you are not hiding.

I ultimately, as a performer, inherently am

hiding a little bit and revealing at the same time.

So I think

there is an inherent bravery in just revealing oneself the way you do.

On this show, we talk a lot about resilience and what it really means to support one another.

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Where do you feel like you're not hiding?

Where in what parts of your life

do you feel like you are the most seen and held and where you're not performing and you're just the coziest and the most,

where do you feel you're belonging?

With Holland, most significantly for sure.

It's the most, I've never slept the way I sleep when I'm next to Holland.

And I just like a kind of, it was the most significant indicator to me.

beyond the other sort of more

overt, obvious things.

It was like, oh, the peace I feel.

And I'm not a peaceful person internally.

I am a kind of chaotic, anxious, overthinking person.

And Holland has some of that too, but she's a much more practical,

logical,

optimistic person than I am generally.

And so, but there's something about, you know, we sleep holding hands.

This is a real thing that we do.

And it's not even, it's not even something we started doing or tried to do.

It's just how we sleep um and that is uh

i just feel most peaceful with her for sure and i have pockets of that in in my relationships with some of my closest friends in the world um you know amanda pete and i have been known to uh literally wet our pants while being together from laughing so hard like an actual pee same actual

we had to pull over once on the road

and she was wearing a kind of a kind of sweatpant where there was like a bloom of water all of a sudden I was like oh my god you pinched

and we could but I couldn't speak and there's a sound that I make and that she makes when she's laughing so hard that is

so funny that even just thinking about it really makes me it's just like unacceptable

it's like a

I can't explain it it's so horrible and it's just we've almost gotten into car accidents it's been bad you know it's bad it's bad and great and delightful and when she laughs sometimes she goes

like something happens with her teeth in her, she's got really big teeth.

You can play the piano

on Amanda's teeth.

And just last night, it was her birthday yesterday and we were talking on the phone and she, something happened and she laughed.

And she did that.

Like, it's almost sounds like a machine gun, which is nothing worse than a machine gun.

But it's like when it's coming out of her teeth, it's only funny.

Anyway, that was a tangent I went on, but there is a lot of peace I have with a person who can laugh at the pants laughing.

Yes.

And my sister as well, we have, my sister and I have a, have a very, we're so close in age.

And

so we, we have a laughing thing too that's, that's unnatural.

Very natural to us, but that's, I think people are like, okay, nobody laughs.

Nobody, nobody thinks it's funny.

Yeah.

I get it.

We learned, my sister and I learned very young that in uncomfortable situations, we would start laughing with each other.

So this is when we were like seven and 10.

So Sarah,

we had this thing that when my dad would be yelling at us, we figured out if you put your arm over your face like you're scratching your back, you can cover your face.

You can be laughing.

We would just be standing next to each other, covering our faces.

And to this day, the laughing.

Abby told me,

I said, asked her one time, when is she most jealous?

Because I'm kind of a jealous person.

Me too.

Me too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jealous.

Me too.

Jealous, really too.

Holland, not jealous, doesn't get jealous.

No, no.

Abby doesn't really get jealous either.

And I told her, I said, when are you ever jealous?

And she said, the only time I'm really jealous is when you're laughing so hard at your sister because she can make you laugh like never.

More than anybody.

Yeah.

Speaking of Abby.

Yeah, Abby.

You know, we haven't.

I know.

We haven't.

We haven't cast an Abby because it feels so huge and important.

What are you hoping for?

in that casting, in that chemistry, in that, what are we going to do?

Don't you think Abby kind of has to weigh in very heavily about who that person is?

That's what I meant to say.

Abby, what do you think?

I'm just saying the reason why is that I wonder if it should be for Abby what it was for you with me.

Ooh, that's interesting.

I honestly, when I think about it, my brain goes to like,

Where is she?

I don't know.

Is it who?

I don't know.

That's the thing is.

That's the thing.

It's got to be.

we've we've talked about it and it's very weird to have to actually have this conversation about who's gonna play me in a television it's a very weird conversation to have so i have to like all right fine i'll do it abby i'll do it go ahead

um wait sarah you should know that lizzie our my one of my best friends liz gilbert tried out for the role over the phone so she was sending me pictures of like her hair in a mohawk and then like

like trying to look like abby And then she sent me pictures.

She said, Well, I know Sarah's great, but have you seen this?

And she sent a picture of herself in like a cartigan with two glasses on her head, trying out for the role of me.

Okay, so I don't want to compete.

I can't compete with Elizabeth Gilbert for the character of Clennam Doyle.

Like, I kind of feel like if you have to pass the baton, I would understand.

I would understand.

Yeah.

I don't know who it should be.

I don't know either.

And I kind of feel like

it should just be like a new person.

I was thinking about that too, because

here's why.

Let me say why.

Even in the book, and I can just, it's very cinematic.

Even in the book, it is, it's cinematic, this moment of you seeing Abby for the first time.

And the idea of not having an attachment to an actor that audiences have any particular feeling about,

but that the idea that it's about Glennon's experience, aka me, or Elizabeth Gilbert.

I'm sure there's others I'm sure all the people will comment below

about who they would rather see and that will be a great day for me and they will not so in advance I say thank you and F you no

some people might no they won't I will have a block party I will have a block party that day and I will block, block, block, block, block that day.

Okay, great.

I've never liked a block party more.

But the idea that it is your experience of seeing this person and what happens to you when you see her

is easier to do when it's a person that nobody has any,

you know, should just be some girl out there, woman out there who's a star and she just don't know it yet.

That's right.

But we do.

That's right.

I think open, open casting call for Abby.

Yeah.

Do you know what's interesting is that that is what Sarah McCarran, who is

going to be the showrunner and you and I had a meeting with her.

Sure did.

During that meeting, Sarah Paulson, I don't even know if you know what you were doing in that meeting, but when Sarah McCarran started talking, we were needing somebody who understood, who was the same as us on the inside and who understood all of the layers of what this show needed to mean to the world.

And she started talking fire out of her mouth.

Okay.

The fire we needed.

And Sarah, you started, you were like in the feet, you were rocking back and forth.

I was like, okay, so yeah you were rocking back and forth in your chair the whole time she was talking and I was like okay so I guess we're not having a poker face during this one I guess we're just gonna we're gonna

I'm not great at that that's not my that's not my strong suit you were so excited and I was so excited she's amazing she's just amazing have you guys been watching station 11 yes email you about this because I'm obsessed by it and there was one episode in particular and written by Sarah McCarron and I was like boom bong bing bong we already have her ding dong ding dong Yes.

And we've been meeting every day to like, we've just been talking about all of what the show needs to mean.

I'm bringing her up because she said those words to me that you just said.

She did?

Yes.

She said, I feel like it needs to be, everyone needs to have the reaction when they're watching

their own reaction, like you had.

Like, we want everybody to go, holy shit, who's that?

Right.

Holy shit.

What is that?

Holy shit.

So

what is that?

There she

is.

So that's interesting.

I can't wait for you to like just this.

Sarah's amazing.

We knew it.

We knew it.

We knew it.

We knew it.

She got on the call, started talking.

We're like, there she is.

We're like, there she is.

What is that?

What?

That's

that.

There she is.

So Sarah Paul, same question.

Your whole theater background informs everything that you do.

And I heard you say that text is queen, you're text derived for your process.

And I heard you say that you dig in there until you find out what is at stake in every story, like what's truly at stake.

And then you let that

your

person you become emerge from what's at stake.

Do you, what is at stake in this story, in the story of Untamed?

Life, everything,

everything,

I think.

oh my god i mean um sometimes when i i get asked a question where there's 15 answers to it i almost like see a you know like a paint wheel that you get when you look at colors of paint and if you spin it really fast there's a million colors on there but they actually go white when you spin it really fast so it's like i see nothing all of a sudden um

the reason i said that about stakes when it comes to acting

is because I believe in every person's life,

everything is at stake all the the time.

And I think sometimes people,

when you're acting, there's a lot of like throwing it away things and this casualization of things and making things less important sometimes as a style of acting.

And it's just never been my style because I always think

anything anyone is pursuing in life matters more to them than anything in the world, whether it be, you know,

finding shelter for their child or, you know, making a choice to leave a bad situation for a better one or you know what they want to put in their coffee like sometimes things like that are vitally important

you know and um

in terms of what is at stake in untamed to me it's about survival and freedom and stepping into one's power and owning one's choices and um and being able to breathe I think the book is too huge in terms of its importance and its value to even put, and almost also because of the way it's written, each piece of it, each individual, I don't even, what do you call them, Glennon?

I mean, are they chapters?

They're not even, are they chapters?

Are they, you know, they're, yeah, they're not.

They're not.

So it's like each

story.

Story vignette.

I mean, I don't even,

I don't even know how to categorize it, which is what's so incredible about the book is that it's totally original.

too.

It's just never been, which is what's so exciting about what I imagine will be

the thing about what Sarah, you and Sarah will, that is so important, I think, to it feeling like the book is to have it not be a sort of traditional way of telling a story.

That's right, you know, because it isn't a traditional story, you are not a traditional person, and yet, in its lack of traditionality, is that traditionality?

Is that a word?

I like it.

I don't know.

I went with it.

It becomes completely universal.

It's like in its uniqueness, it is the story of every woman, you know, person, really.

But it's hard for me to put into a kind of categorical stakes

because I think each little part of the book, each one has a different

velocity to it.

And sometimes they're still and sometimes they're full of fire and sometimes they're quiet.

And I don't know.

It's just so like a person.

It's so multifaceted, like a person, you know,

so amazing to me.

What do you feel like is when you think about

your life and your relationship to all people and to the queer community?

What do you, because it was very important to me.

I mean, I was just really grateful that you, what I would have called before now, queer, that you were queer.

Thanks for that, by the way.

You're welcome.

I did it for you.

I needed that to be true.

I did it so I would be right for this part.

Thank you.

Thank you a lot.

Because that was actually very, really important to me.

And I read this that you said in the New York Times a long time ago, I read this, probably when I was obsessing about you.

And it's funny that you just think that you were sitting there in your bed thinking I should play this part.

And it was coming from nowhere.

It was coming from me across the country praying in my bed to God that she would tap you and say, make you really feel like you needed to play this.

But you said, if my life choices had to be predicated based on what was expected of me from a community on either side that's going to make me feel really straightjacketed and i don't want to feel that what i can say absolutely is that i am in love and that person happens to be holland taylor this is an ongoing life conversation between me and abby

do you identify as anything

um

i i identify as a human being in love That's how I identify.

I sometimes, and this is a more complicated,

I reject and resist that which is sort of insisted upon me by any person.

It makes me crazy.

And it's not because I don't want to belong or I don't feel part of

the community as it is.

I want to be the

president of my life, the governor, the governess, the mayor of my town.

And I don't want to be, I, I, and, and, and I think sometimes it is a bit of a pushback that is just a,

you know, because I feel,

I don't know, like, like,

I, I don't want to have to answer to anyone.

I want to answer to me and I want to answer to those people in my life.

And I want to live honestly and make honest choices for me.

And I don't want to worry about disappoint.

I'm already like at war with my own disappointment in myself.

And I already am having to fight that battle with me and I'm quite a worthy adversary.

And so I just, I just,

just can't have the other noise.

It's too much for me.

So it's not because I don't feel part of it.

It's just I don't like a label in any which way and certainly not put on me by anyone other than me.

So does that make sense?

Does that sound like

I don't want it to feel like it's a rejection of something to choose

that idea or to that that belief system for me works for me.

And I don't mean it to be a rejection of something else.

I have no problem if somebody else, you know, wants to label me in one particular way or the other, I suppose, because, but it's not how I,

I don't know, because, and this is, I mean, this will be the most inflaming thing a person could ever say, but, you know,

I don't know what the future holds.

I just don't want to worry about letting anyone else down.

I want to be the only person that I'm worried about doing that with, except for the people that are in my immediate circle that I, you know, who I depend on for my brain health and my heart health.

And, you know, I get that deeply.

It's kind of like religion in that way.

Yeah.

Well, every inclusion is an exclusion.

Exclusion.

That's right.

I remember when

actually Chase came out to us, I remember saying, you know, and if one day in the future you change your mind, like, great.

Like, we are good with you.

Whoever you want to bring home, whoever you want to be, we are good.

Yeah.

It's not about us.

It's about you.

You make you happy.

That's right.

What did he say when you said that?

Was he relieved or did he expect that you would say that?

I want to know.

I think that, I think he was just like really overwhelmed with having just come out.

So I don't know if he actually heard me.

I'll circle back around in a couple of minutes.

I'm just coming on with him.

We know what's so funny is that

we, that was our reaction.

And that was like the same thing that a person who is very different, like a mother who, like your mom was like, this isn't necessarily real.

Like you can change your mind.

And that was on one side.

And we were on the other side going, oh, you can change your mind.

But we meant it like in the most fluid, progressive way.

But it was the same thing as saying, well, no, my mom didn't say you could change your mind.

She just said you're not.

No, you're not.

Yeah.

I was like, well, no,

I am.

No.

She was like, no, you're not.

She's like, I'll just wait here until you change your mind.

Yeah.

Whatever.

This is not about me.

I just, I think it's so beautiful because i think it's really important that

you just have to every single person gets to be and do as they please i believe and that is true truly what i think being a queer person in the it's just like you do you and we shouldn't have to belong to people in order to be seen and respected and celebrated like that belonging and and checking all the boxes shouldn't be a requirement

to be seen yeah and allowed in the world.

Except you.

You belong to me.

Except for you.

Yes.

Yes.

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Glenn, your hair has gotten really long.

Do you know what happened, Sarah Paulson?

Tell me that my wife for Christmas got me this fancy thing that is a blow dryer that blow dries in magical ways from some weird company.

And because my entire life it's a Dyson.

Yeah, this is not a commercial for Dyson, but sorry, but it works.

It's a great blow dryer.

I have it too.

And Abby looked at me today and I was actually using it, which is weird.

And she was like, what's happening with all of these waves?

And I was like, I just, life is such shit right now.

Like, I swear to God, Sarah, I just, I, I don't understand what's happening.

The pandemic.

2022 has been a dizzy.

Yeah,

it's just already a total fucking shit show.

And I don't remember who I am or how to be human.

And, and I'm just fucking blow-drying my hair, Sarah.

Yeah, I blew dry.

I'm just blew.

I blew dry.

I blew in mind dry.

What is it?

It's a tough one.

I blew dry.

I blowed it.

I blowed it.

I blow-dried it.

You definitely.

I blow-dried it.

I blow-dried it.

Wait.

I blow-dried it.

I blowed it.

We blowed it.

I blowed it dry.

No,

I blew it dry.

I blew it out.

I had a blow-dry.

I blowed it.

No, it's not blowed it.

It's definitely not that.

That shows you how, but I did this.

That's so good.

You have a curly dry.

But see, my hair is curly.

I have a curly, weird hair.

Same.

Yeah, same.

Another place where we are aligned.

But I do think about sometimes the joy I'm going to have with your hair in this show.

Yeah.

Like early days, long, long, long time.

You can get real housewife extensions.

I mean, I know you like it.

I do like them.

And I...

It's only because I want to play them all, really.

That's the thing.

Right.

I do look at them and I'm like, explain to me what you're doing.

I'm trying to understand what you're doing.

And I'm fascinated.

Maybe I'm just tricking myself into thinking I'm doing something when really it's just like a way of creating some negative space in the brain where I usually have none.

You know, that might be it.

So you're calling it.

It's like a lot of, so I'm calling it research, but really it's just like this,

like a test, like a test pattern.

That's the extent of my singing.

I blewed it dry, guys.

I blew the front of my hair dry.

You You blew it dry.

Well,

I did.

I do hope you get to do, I hope they put in the scene when I first went out for Karen Warrior and I went on the Today Show and I was watching a lot of Real Housewives back then, Sarah Paulson.

And they told me,

I was a mom and I didn't go anywhere really, but the bus stop and a few other places.

And they told me to get TV ready.

Okay, so if you're going to tell me to get TV ready and the only thing I'm watching is the housewives, what I need you to do is Google at some point my first Today show.

I had extensions down to my waist.

I had a skin tight dress on with chicken cutlet plastic things in my boobs so that my boobs would look bigger.

I had eyelashes that were a mile and a half long.

I had Botox in my forehead.

And my topic was how we should show up as we are, vulnerably, transparently, as ourselves in the world.

Okay.

And nobody knew what to do with me because obviously.

So at one point, they discussed you had this viral essay about don't carpe diem, which has to do with you know

knowing that being a young mom is hard and time going by fast.

So, you know how they put the ticker at the bottom with the yes, it's you know, it will be like

Nobel Prize winner or like whatever.

Mine said, mother who understands that time goes by fast and is okay with it.

that

was why I was on the date and is okay with it.

My question is: Do you have a date so that I, because I'm sure that you've been on the Today Show a lot, what is it?

What year was it?

I have to sent it to you.

I don't know how he sent it to me.

Yes, he said.

This is

too much to be real.

It's too much.

But I just, I'm excited about it, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm excited about also how I can find a chamber that I can step into that will just reduce my height by like I know, isn't that interesting?

It's just like, I wish I could just,

Sarah, we'll just make every other person

really around you four inches taller.

Listen, they do things like this.

I mean, we don't want to give away all the secrets, but they could like make a countertop much higher looking so that I'm actually not that much higher than the countertop compared to the, and then the person.

Yeah, you can do all kinds of, there's all kinds of short, short movie stars that have been towering over women for years.

That's right.

With the help of lifts and boxes and apple boxes and camera angles.

So we can make how tall are you?

What?

How tall are you?

I mean, I know I've already Googled.

You're 5'6, right?

5'7?

No, I'm like 5'6 and 3 quarters.

5'7?

Yeah.

But I'm not really 5'7 because things have already started to like, yeah, they're right.

2020 was

2020 and 20, but it was really hard.

So I think I'm like 5'4 and a half right now.

Probably.

How tall are you?

Are you 5'3?

I'm 5'3

No.

No.

Sister, yes, I am.

I just went to the doctor's point.

Tell them.

It said five, three.

Look at Switzerland over there.

It said 5'3.

The form that Glendon reported her height, it said 5'3.

'Three.

How tall is she, Amanda?

How tall is she?

She is 5'2 and 3 quarters.

Yeah.

What is a quarter?

My God.

I can't believe you've gone through all this for one little quarter of an inch.

I'm just reporting it.

She said she's 5'6 six, and three quarters.

And you're not taking her three quarters.

You're rounding your zone.

Nobody will know.

Nobody knows how tall people are in television.

I just think

whoever our Abby is, she just has to be taller than I am.

Yeah.

So

open casting, but you have to be seven and a half feet tall.

You have to be seven and a half feet tall or we won't even see you.

That's fair.

We won't even see you.

We won't meet.

We don't want to see your reading.

We're sure you're great, but no.

That's right.

So it'll help us narrow it down, honestly.

I just think, and what I mean by that is five, nine, five, ten is fine because I'll be in some flats, I guess.

That's right.

That's right.

Unless it's the Today Show and then you're going to need

to let it.

Okay.

I we need to let sweet Sarah Paulson go right now.

I hate when Sarah Paula has all these beautiful conversations because we're going to make such beautiful, wonderful things together this year.

And I'm just.

I know.

I need us to start.

Oh, don't worry.

We've been starting, Sarah Paulson, every day.

I've been, Sarah McCarran and I have been writing and working every single day.

And if you understood the fire and beauty that is going on,

I mean, Sarah, Abby walked into the room into a Zoom the other day.

I thought she was in a proper fight with somebody, like that somebody was attacking.

I walk in and I was like, what's going on?

And she's just discussing, you know, feminist theory with Sarah McCarran.

Like,

like they're just discussing the theory of it all.

And she's like, she's like, don't tell me.

And I was like, is everything okay?

She's like, oh, yeah, no, we're just talking.

I'm yelling at them.

Right.

Not her.

Right.

Yeah.

So the greatest news about this is that there she is.

We found the right person.

We did.

Yeah.

That's so incredible.

And she is great.

She's passionate.

I've actually spent a few hours with her.

She's great.

And she's, she's very, very, very smart.

She's way smarter than that.

And so's Ben.

And Jesse has gotten us to this point.

Yeah.

I think she understands the book better than I do.

So that was a bonus.

You were like, that is what I meant.

That is exactly what I meant with that sentence.

It's just no one else has brought it up.

No one knew it, including me.

But thank you.

Oh, my God.

I'm so glad you exist.

And I'm so incredibly grateful that you said yes to this.

And I just love you so much.

I love who you are in the world.

And I just think this is going to be the beginning of many beautiful things to come.

I hope and pray that that is exactly right.

And I know it is.

I just don't want to let you down.

I'm working on it, though.

Never.

Working on my

confidence about being able to do this.

Yeah.

I'm going to be great.

Aren't we all?

You're going to be great.

And I will be the best fucking cheerleader in the whole wide world.

Correct.

I know that to be true.

You're going to do great.

And Holland and I will sit on the sidelines and just marvel.

And they'll talk about how beautiful we are even without eyebrows.

We love you.

Oh, man.

I love you.

I love you.

You for doing so many hard things.

Thank you for having me.

Goodbye.

You're the last best.

You're the absolute best.

I love you.

We love you.

I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle.

I walked through fire.

I came out the other side.

I chased desire.

I made sure

I got what's mine.

mine

And I continue

to believe

That I'm the one for me

And because I'm mine

I walk the line

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on map

A final destination

we lack.

We stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do a hard thing

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start

I'm not the problem,

sometimes things fall apart

And I continue to believe

the best

people are free

And it took some time

But I'm finally fine

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that

a final destination

we lack.

We stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do hard things

we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay with that.

We've stopped asking directions

in some places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find

our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

We can do hard

things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do hard

things.

We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.

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Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it.

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