64. FRIENDSHIP: What is it and why do we need it now more than ever?

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To be loved, we need to belong.

Hi, everybody.

Hi!

Why are you laughing at me already?

Always says, hi, everybody.

I know, it's just, it's amazing amazing to me that it can sound the exact same every single week.

Okay.

It's amazing.

It's a talent.

Hi, everybody.

Is that different enough?

Much.

Okay.

And worse.

Go back to the beginning.

Go back to the beginning.

Greetings, friends.

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

We are shocked and stunned and delighted that you continue to return.

And since you return, so do we.

And today we are talking about something that our pod squad has requested of us for months.

And that topic is friendship.

Oh, help me.

How it matters, why it matters, how to get it, how to keep it, how to deepen it, how to end it.

We have successfully avoided this topic until now.

Yep.

For two reasons.

Reason number one,

nobody

recording this podcast right now, you, me, sister,

we don't understand it.

None of us understand friendship.

Would you agree?

Uh-huh.

Yep.

Okay.

I feel like I understand it a little bit more at this point, having researched it for the past couple of weeks.

I'm like, ah, I see what you're talking about.

Oh, good.

Okay, good.

So you can help us because I still feel as confused as I did.

When we sat down to talk about it, I mean, we literally just ended up staring at each other blankly during our let's prepare for friendship meetings confused and then confirmed in some ways too like yeah this is what this is probably why we don't have as many friends as we have yeah so

we are three people who in fact do not understand friendship and we worried that if we tried to talk about friendship for an hour you the listener might find out that we in fact do not understand what we are talking about which would be a worst case scenario right and that might extend to other things like they might be like wait what if they never know what they're talking about and then

second thought let me listen to all their podcasts they never know what they're talking about

let's save you the time and just confirm that for you right now yes the jig is up friendship ruined us okay

but then we thought okay what if we're not the three of us are not an anomaly maybe maybe we are actually

representative of how the world feels about friendship maybe we are all all a little confused about friendship because there are so freaking few agreed upon definitions for what a friend is.

Yes.

Yes.

And also, it's both

like over-inclusive and under-inclusive, I feel, because I feel like part of the reason that we're so confused is this tomfoolery of the fact that we have one word to describe the phenomenon of friendship.

So that like the word that I use to describe the person whose photos I scroll through on the internet and the person, the lovely person at school drop off that I see once a week, who I'm like, they're lovely, is the same word for the people that are most important in my life, like doing life with.

And I feel like it's that phenomenon where if something has come to mean everything, it actually means nothing.

And there's there's no cultural expectation because there is no definition about the significance and kind of the expectations of that kind of relationship in our culture.

That's right.

Also, I just have to say, sister has this most unique ability to just throw in some fucking amazing word tomfoolery.

She's always said tomfoolery.

Tom Foolery was just like in the sentence.

It just came off very easily.

I just need to say that.

You are my friend because of that reason.

She's just always throwing around words like tomfoolery.

It's so actually.

Poor Tom.

Yeah.

So that's so true.

It's like some cultures have a hundred words for snow and we have one word for friend.

So when I say it, it means something completely different than what you're thinking, which causes all kinds of confusion and

unmet expectations and frustration.

Okay, so reason number two that we thought we should avoid this topic at all costs is because each of us on this podcast is either currently convinced or has historically been convinced that we are a bad friend.

I have heard all of us say it a million different times.

We've said it our whole lives.

We've said, oh, I'm a bad friend.

Like it's a diagnosis, like it's a condition.

Like, hi, I'm Glennon, 45, recovering addict, Pisces, Enneagram for bad friend.

Yeah.

Like that's part of our identity.

I say it as kind of like

warning, a get out of jail-free cards.

You're setting an expectation.

Right.

For sure.

Yeah.

Yours is like a preemptive apologetic stance.

Yes.

Yes.

Just so you know.

Yes.

This is how, yeah.

Whatever you think is going to, I'm going to give you, I'm going to screw up is what I'm trying to say when I say I'm a bad friend.

But why have you, sister, thought of yourself as a bad friend over time?

I have been thinking about this

constantly the last two weeks and I feel so excited because I feel like I have a little bit of a

self-revelation right now.

And I'm so excited because I feel like looking back at my life, what I am seeing is that

I valued my friends.

I believed that I valued my friends very much.

But I think at a level, I truly believed that I didn't need to be in connection with my friends to value them.

them.

So it sounds really odd to say it, but for me, the most important things in a friendship have always been mutual respect and trust, like real trust.

Like I trust who you are as a person.

I trust the way you live, your integrity, your wisdom.

I know who you are.

And I'll be in your foxhole with you and you'll be in mine.

And that's all I need to know.

Like it was kind of like done deal.

That's it.

And I believed that our houses were sound and that was good and i kind of resented what i saw as kind of this housekeeping element of like

stay staying in touch knowing what's going on in your life being there for non-emergencies like it felt like knowing your life wasn't as important as knowing who you are and that I'll show up for you.

And, and I kind of in a way saw it as like a scorekeeping thing.

I'm a better person because I don't keep score.

And other people who need you to call them back once every 10 times were kind of just less evolved.

And I realized that

actually that I am not exceptional.

Like I need

connection and I need friendship.

And in fact, that kind of connection, what I had been seeing as housekeeping is actually the engine

that builds connection.

It reminds me of what you, you had an old relationship where you said, why don't you ever tell me that I, that you love me?

And he said, I told you a long time ago, and I will tell you if it changes.

Oh, Jesus.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's that.

Well, so it is helpful because I think it was last year, I think.

I have this dear, amazing human friend, Lauren, who we call Bonzo.

And we've been friends for 25 years.

And

she is historically a friend that kind of calls me in.

Like, I remember when we were living in, we lived in a group of 12 women in college in this house together.

And it was a wonderful time.

And I was going through a lot of my eating disorder stuff at the time.

And I

had this,

like, I was stealing people's food.

Oh, yeah, I steal it.

Like in my binge, I was like taking people's food and everybody knew it was me, but it was like living in, they were like posting notes.

Hey, y'all, we actually can't, you know, steal each other's cereal and leave an empty box.

Sister, isn't it everybody do you get cringy about it every once in a while?

I remember back to those times.

I used to steal everyone's food.

My friends didn't wouldn't even live with me one evening because I would steal all of their shit just to throw it up.

Okay, sorry, go ahead.

No, I feel cringy and shame, but mostly I just like feel so

sad

for that like disassociated person who was living in that house, who knew that everybody knew that that was happening and everybody.

And like, what is that about?

And then I also use it on myself now.

I'm like.

I'm the same person that was that.

So what in my life is that thing that I'm doing right now?

Ooh.

That in 10 years, I'm going to look back and be like, oh, baby girl, I think that we're doing that.

Oh, that's good.

You know?

Anyway, but Bonzo is the only one who sat me down and was like, I need to talk to you.

Wow.

Here's what's going on.

Here's what I know it's you.

Like we need to talk about this.

How can we, it's not okay.

But like in the most loving, beautiful way.

Anyway, she's, she's historically.

Hold on.

What was the outcome of that conversation?

Like, I never had that conversation.

Yeah, did you stop stealing food?

What, what happened?

were you so embarrassed were you did you feel loved did you feel scared i've i've always felt so loved by her that i think

i think had it been delivered differently or by a different human it might have been

bad

for me i think i was thankful.

I think I was relieved.

It's kind of like the jig is up.

Yes.

Gig is up.

What is up?

I think

something's up.

It's expired.

And I think that it was kind of what I had been like holding together.

Yes.

Very ineffectively, but pretending to wasn't held together anymore.

Yeah.

And it's part of it.

It's like, somebody help me.

Somebody see me.

Somebody help me.

Yeah.

So that was a long tangent, just to say that she is, she has been that for me a lot of times.

And she, um, so last year, she just

called, and she's a very, very strong human.

She called and she was like, Doyle, what the fuck?

Like,

I'm over like this trope of you being like, I can't keep in touch because I'm so busy and woe is me.

And I'm so busy.

She's like, it's tired.

I've been going through a really hard thing for the past six months that you don't even know about.

Like, you don't, you don't know about it because you're not in community with me.

You're not checking with me.

And again, it was like from a place of such love, a way of being like, you're missing out on what is the meat of friendship

because you're telling yourself this story about you being busy and it's tired, but also

at some point you're going to have to choose.

There's no situational exceptionalism out of relationship, right?

Like you either have to choose whether to be in relationship.

So anyway, that's, I think for me, what I am realizing is that,

and there's a whole host of reasons we should go into as to why, you know, connection through friendship is actually the best thing you can do for your life and your health.

Because it truly is.

Because what you said in the beginning is true.

You said, you know, friendship is who you need with you in the foxhole, but life is a foxhole.

Correct.

Yeah.

The foxhole is now.

Like we're

in the daily, day-to-day of life and loss and stress and trying to be human is a freaking foxhole.

And that's why we need connection consistently.

Is that what you're saying?

Did you change?

I think it is that.

It's not like we pay this annoying price of being connection with our friends so that when we need them, they'll show up.

It's that the connection we're making with our friends is the showing up in each other's lives that makes life more bearable.

The bearable is interesting.

I have this feeling

when

I have had my small pockets of time where I

make connections with friends, and it is a feeling of being tethered to the earth.

Oh,

yes.

It's like, I don't know how else to describe it except that I constantly feel like a hot air balloon just like floating out into the wilderness.

I am completely freaking untethered from the earth.

And when I

try and when I talk and when I am seen by other human beings who are not in my family, by the way, it doesn't work as well for family members with me, this tethered feeling.

I feel like I am one of those hot air balloons that had like a, you know, those stakes put down.

Like there's a stake in this corner of my basket and that, and I feel like

grounded.

Yeah.

Well, don't you think that friendship is also

a vulnerability?

It's like, I think that some of us, especially recovered from alcohol, I have very confused relationship with friends, primarily because so much of my friendships were revolving around alcohol for so many years.

There's like a vulnerability in letting your guard down, not just like with somebody, but there's a vulnerability in

trying to maintain the friendship, in the consistency consistency of staying in somebody's lives and staying and having them stay in your life.

Like to me, like

you will choose friends that you want to be in your life or not.

But I think that, sister, like what I'm hearing and you, I think that some of the issues is like.

You can't control friends.

You can't control if Bonzo is going to call you and be like, yo,

you're fucking sucking right now.

Like, what is going on?

What happened after that?

Yeah.

I

realized that I didn't have what I thought

I had.

I had this beautiful friend, but I wasn't being a friend to her.

You know?

But did you have even the beautiful friend?

Because you thought you had the friend.

Because you thought a friend was like an ace in your pocket.

But what she's saying is you don't even have, you're not even having the have.

Like, you're not getting the benefit of what a friend is supposed to be on a daily, weekly, monthly basis.

You're not even using me.

You're not even playing your ace card.

Exactly.

That's what it is.

I realized that in my kind of story, I was telling myself

that

friendship was this kind of like thing that people who were lucky enough to have enough time got to do.

But I was depriving myself of this gift.

That's the people in my life.

Like I really, truly think when you talk about vulnerability,

Abby, it's like

I really believed that I didn't require connection in my life.

Yep.

I really believed that like I didn't need that.

But the truth is that we all very, very much need it.

It's the best predictor of happiness and health in life.

And so I'm just kind of trying to evolve out of that kind of self-absorbed exceptionalism of I don't need it and I can't get by without really cool things.

It could be self-absorbed exceptionalism, but I also truly believe that it's an addiction to productivity.

Also, it's like the capitalistic idea of, because you just said the best predictor of health and happiness.

Okay.

So you would think that we would all think, well, then obviously we want to do that because health and happiness is our goal.

But in our culture, health and happiness isn't even the most immediate goal.

The most immediate goal is production.

What am I making?

What am I?

How am I?

So

friendship.

That's where happiness comes.

Right.

So friendship to me is such a

wild resistance to capitalistic productivity addiction

because you're sitting with your friend and you're like, what freaking good is this hour?

What is, what good is this hour?

It's like art.

It's like such a wild

thing to commit yourself to because it feels like there's nothing to show for it afterwards.

Yeah.

Except for, of course, your health and your happiness and your joy and your being tethered to this earth and this life.

It's just also confusing because all of us have different definitions for it.

I can tell you the definition of what actually that kind of magic of that is the most healthful.

So like the, when they say it actually like changes that this, the rate at which your cells age and your immune system response and your heart health and all of that, that is all this, the kind of like magical

friend template.

There's three things that go into

that.

So first, it's a stable or long-term relationship.

Second, it's positive.

And third, it's reciprocal, meaning helpful.

cooperative, like we help each other get through life.

So those are the three, like when the science says there is, you know,

satisfaction with relationships is the best predictor of health at 80 years old.

These are the three things

that

contribute to your health.

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When you say relationships,

because are we sure, are they talking about friendships?

Because relationships can also be.

I'm your friend.

You're right.

But like your, your partner, your children, your,

like, is this, does this mean friendships for sure?

And how many are we supposed to have?

That's the other thing.

So I think that's a big question that people have.

Like, how do I find friends?

How is, do I have enough friends?

There's a woman named Lydia Dentworth and she's a science journalist.

She wrote a book called Friendship and she studies all of this and it's fascinating.

It's an average of four people that are kind of your, the people who you can't imagine your life without.

The average person has four of them between two and eight people.

It does not matter whether they are friend friends, so like non-blood or family.

But that friend template has to exist in the other relationship.

So if it is your partner,

it has to still, it's not like just because it's your partner, you can call it a friend, just because the person that you're closest to, quote unquote, closest to you, counts as giving you that magic, it still has to be stable, positive, and reciprocal.

Do you know why I think it might be?

Because my

I'm have always been so

concentrated on family that I haven't put energy into other

baskets often.

And also, to be honest, I've always told myself that I, it takes me so much freaking energy to just get through the day because of mental health stuff that I don't have like the leftover to

foster other relationships.

But I just thought of this and I don't know if it's going to sound weird, but the reason why the tethering I think happens

I

do check in with people outside of my family is that when you have your own little family that you put all of your eggs into that basket, you can never be sure if anything that you're doing or saying or way you're living is really all that healthy because you have,

you're all coming from the same freaking little tiny effed up culture.

All of our little families are effed up up cultures.

Like, I'm sorry, even if your family listener is like close to perfect, it's still effed up.

We all have accepted the same storylines and we all have the same values and we all were raised by the same people and we all are living in these little twisted ecosystems.

You could be batshit crazy and losing it.

And all your little people are still going to be like, aha, you're doing great.

You're crushing it.

That's right.

That's why no one ever finds out that their families are crazy until they grow up, get partnered up with other people, and then you both find out both of your families were crazy.

Exactly.

Because you're creating the new ecosystem.

That's one of the reasons I'm so nervous.

Chase is at college.

Like, people are going to tell him.

Yes.

We're like, we listen to all of his stories.

Like, we're listening if he, if he, like, has he figured it out yet?

Is he telling other people about our crazy or right?

But do you know what I mean?

It's like when people outside your little twisted little world,

they can offer you wisdom that you didn't have.

They can say, hey, I see what you're doing, and I think that's healthy, whatever it is.

It's a different mirror.

Yeah.

It's like, yeah, somebody gets to bring in some kind of difference, and it allows maybe a little bit of balance and wisdom.

Yeah.

More wisdom from like a different, you know, different planets.

Different planets are coming in and saying, giving you their weird ideas from their weird planet.

Yeah.

I think what that speaks to is that our, like, our actual needs as human beings have not changed the way that our culture and society and economics have changed.

And I think that is why I give grace to people like me and others who are A, super confused about friendship, B, super confused about

either living in a world where they're desperate for friendship and are surrounded by people who don't understand it and are not reciprocating, or people who think, ah, that's a little tangential to my major need, which is just to survive this day and the things I have to get done.

Like really truly in our, and just bear with me for a second, because I think this is important to understand is that it's only been in the relatively recent human history of like agricultural and industrial societies that we have any kind of like.

surplus of anything, right?

So for the longest time in the world, and this goes to you kind of like looking outside of your family for needs, we were in these forager societies societies that were in bands of people and they we had to survive for thousands and thousands and thousands of years we had to work cooperatively with each other for food and resources and protection on any given day everyone had to work together to share and to and to reciprocate and to say you do this i'll do this together we'll survive we think that family is the basis of cooperation but blood relationships only accounted for 40 of those band societies so in other words, kinship wasn't the reason for human cooperation.

It was the outcome of human cooperation.

Oh, okay.

People didn't need each other because they were bonded.

They were bonded because they needed each other.

Okay.

So you're saying.

Me saying, I don't have enough time for friendship because I can barely make it through the day as it is.

It should be, I need friendship because I can barely make it through the day.

As it is, it's like, that's not the thing I do with my extra energy.

That's the thing that will give me the energy that I need to live

a little bit happier.

Exactly.

I think it's the, we think, oh, I don't feel connected.

I don't feel like I feel the need for that thing.

It's because you don't need that thing.

Because you haven't invested in connecting in that thing.

Oh, God.

You don't even know what you're missing.

It's the same reason why,

you know,

the

like together rising board, like I would take a bullet for those people.

It's because like we have so relied on each other.

And I, I love them because I need them and because we are mutually engaged in this thing

that is vital to life.

Well, let's talk about that because there's a vehicle there.

Like you're talking about not friendship, just like, oh, I met somebody at the coffee shop.

You're talking about friendship around a shared mission, like together, rising.

And that reminds me of you

because of soccer.

Yeah.

What, how has friendship and soccer worked together?

Yeah, I mean, it's just been kind of confusing.

I've had

for a lot of my life, especially as a gay kid growing up in the 90s,

my friends in many ways had to be my chosen family because of,

you know, fear of

being kicked out, all of these things, right?

And so friends were and have always had this really important place in my heart.

But from the time that I can remember being a child on Teams, I had these friends.

It's like, wow, you know, this is such a beautiful bonus of being a soccer player.

It's like, I have all these like built-in friends.

Forced friends.

They had to be your friends.

And the irony with that is that it was such a comfort during certain parts of my life.

And then now as an adult and in my retirement from soccer,

it gives me time to think about a lot of these friendships, you know, whether they were soccer-based.

Like, you know, we talk about the May Pole a lot.

Like.

The thing in my life for so many years was soccer and everything else kind of revolved around that.

So you're talking about the pole that has the strings and everyone dances around the May pole.

Like the pole for you is soccer.

Yes.

And I have had so many beautiful, and by the way, like for those of my soccer friends who are listening to this, like I actually still feel like such amazing, like I have such best friends from my playing days.

But the truth is, I haven't seen some of them in five, six years since I stopped playing.

And I haven't even been in contact with some players, some of my friends that I considered some of my best friends.

And that's okay.

Like, because of the way that our friendships were kind of set up, it was around one thing.

Going many months and sometimes years, you know, some players would get injured and you wouldn't see them for a couple of years.

And so I have always thought of myself because of this

system that was set up for me.

in friendship that i wasn't really that good because it was like out of sight out of mind

um

And then, you know, throughout the whole of my life, you throw in drinking as like this other

maypole.

Yeah.

You know, when I was in soccer camp and training with the team, I had, you know, a certain amount of friends.

And then when I was not in camp, I had different friends.

And for a long time, I had some really, really close best friends.

And then,

and then I stopped drinking.

And you lost two Maypoles right at once.

Yeah, I stopped drinking and I stopped soccering and I moved to Naples.

And so that obviously changes things.

So I didn't have like

set up friends there.

But the irony is I didn't, I didn't really go out and create friends there because there was like, there wasn't this maypole.

I think maybe my maypole changed to family and I created friendship with you and the kids.

And that.

has been my world ever since.

And I do think that there is a real truth to to like all the things that sister is talking about of us knowing deep down that the three things that that define what friendship is is important for our life longevity.

Yeah, I think so.

And as the kids get older, I think that we start to get a little bit like, oh shit, like, and no offense, because I think that this is true in every marriage.

Like, you don't want your kids all to go to.

go off to school or or leave the house and you become an empty nester and all you have is your partner.

No, we don't want to be in our freaking

hot air balloon, but now there's two in the basket and we're totally untethered and we're just like floating away to nowhere.

Yeah, we need friends in our lives and I'm committed.

However, this is something that I think is really important and difference between you and me.

My threshold.

for what a friend is is very different than yours.

In what way?

I can literally walk into a store two times, same person is behind the counter.

They're my friend.

It's true.

It's so freaking true.

They're my friend.

She's like the mayor of everywhere we go.

I go out surfing.

I've got surfing friends.

I don't talk to them other than when we are in.

So, like, this, this,

the part of me that connection revolves around these like maypoles, right?

That

everywhere in my life, I I can see or create a maypole if I want to.

And I think Glennon's threshold or barometer of the kind of friends she wants is much more.

There's, there's, how am I trying to?

Well, it's, it's, you don't overthink it.

I overthink it to death.

I, I'm so scared of these friends you're making out there because

I, okay.

I'm just going to say this.

I have a few reasons.

Okay.

Feel my hands.

Seriously, I'm sweating right now i know it's so weird okay

first of all

i

don't understand

what we're getting into okay i am more afraid to get into a friendship than i am to get into a marriage because with a marriage i know how to get myself the hell out right there is an actual effing path.

If things start to go wrong, there are people I can call.

There are lawyers set up for this.

There are support groups.

I'm just saying there is a path out.

With friendship, we have not, as a culture, decided

how we get into the slippery slope.

Like if you start to notice red flags, what do you do?

There's no like, oh, first date, second date, DTR.

There's no defining the relationship.

There's like, you know what I mean?

There's no like progression.

So then there's no getting yourself out.

It's just this abyss,

a slippery slope of commitment.

And And there's no shared expectation of what it means to be a friend.

That's good.

So when I like clear expectations, I like to know what people need from me so I can decide whether I can give that to them and vice versa.

So when someone says to me, not that we even say this, we don't even say, do you want to be my friend?

We just trick each other into it, I guess, over time.

But even if they did say,

Even if they did say, do you want to be my friend?

I don't know what they mean.

They could mean that they want to text every couple weeks and check in.

Oh, no, by the way, if you want to get into a text relationship with my wife, I'm just like, disclaimer here: like, she's not texting you back right away, right?

It's just not happening.

But that's the thing.

Then, where does it end?

You know, I've told you this before.

If I text you back, I check it off my list.

Oh, no, no, no, what happens?

You text me right back.

It's a never-ending cycle of hell.

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Well, you are an intentionality junkie.

Yes.

What's the intention

of this?

So, so Abby is like a,

she's a joy seeker.

So she's out there and she's like, hey, did you meet the guy at the market?

He's my boy.

You know, like that's the, and Glennon is like, what is the intention behind this arrangement?

And what am, what is specifically my objectives?

And what is, how is this going to work itself out?

And where's it going?

And then there's the other thing

that is the real truth of why I'm scared of friendship.

What is it?

I think,

which I'm going to blame this on my sensitivity, which has been an issue for me my whole life, good and bad, is that

at the end of the day, I

feel like most people are scary assholes.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Like they are.

So,

so your little friends you made surfing, that's great.

Okay.

That's great.

You're out there surfing.

That's fine.

But if that escalates in the way that friendships often do.

So the next thing I know, you're going to come home and be like,

Sam the surfer is coming over for dinner.

And I'm going to be like, okay, because you know what's going to happen?

Sam the surfer is going to come over and we're going to sit down and he's going to say some shit.

He's going to reveal some scary assholishness.

And then now what do we do?

Now I'm stuck at dinner.

I'm sweating more.

I don't know how there's no exit ramp for Sam the Surfer.

We're stuck with Sam the Surfer down the road for the rest of our freaking lives.

And Sam the Surfer, like most others, turns out to be a scary asshole.

Yeah, but honey, I do

lest we forget, like, I have some pretty strong boundaries around you.

I know my wife, and I know that I get to decide

on who I bring into this house.

I'm just saying, Sam the surfer might not have revealed his full self to you yet.

It's just nice to like have a conversation when you're surfing.

Like, it's nice to have people.

Well, you just keep it in the water.

I just think, okay, what we're drilling down on here is the difference.

Like there are two very healthful things in our lives.

One are, you know, that inner cocentric circle of the people we can't imagine our lives without.

We need to be able to say to them what isn't working in our life.

We need to be honest.

We need to be reciprocal and positive with them.

Okay.

Then there's this whole other universe of connection,

connection in the world.

We are so socially isolated right now that we are lacking even.

This is when Abby walks into the, you know, store and makes a connection with the person behind the countertop.

They're not necessarily going to be in your lives forever, but the value of that connection in her day is important to her health.

And that's for all of us, right?

And we don't crave it.

So like they did a study where the, where people on their commutes were, um,

they were, they planted people to make, initiate conversation with people on their commutes.

And none of the people wanted to be engaged in conversation.

And they were all like initially super annoyed that people started talking to them.

And then when they got off the train, the people who were annoyed to have their scrolling interrupted by conversation had better days

than the people who weren't interrupted.

Okay, this I can get behind because this sounds very quantifiable.

Okay, so

what you're saying is connection,

we don't crave it, but when we get it, we're happier and better.

Like sex.

Like I was just going to say, like, like exercise, like admit exercise, like water, drinking water.

Like, yeah, never, not once will you be like, oh, I wish that I didn't connect that with that person.

I feel like I feel that a lot, but okay, I do see what you're saying.

But I think we mess it up, right?

Like we are both underinvesting in connection.

And some of us are overinvesting in the friendships that are not positive.

Yes.

So, so it's like find the place on the circles.

And I mean, this is

Lydia Dentworth's research.

This is Stephanie Kuhn's friendship research.

We need to place people appropriately

on the cocentric circles around us, but we also need to acknowledge that all of those connections are helpful for us.

I have a question.

They're appropriately placed.

I have a question.

What about online friendships?

Do those count?

They better.

That's all I've got.

So the initial research came out about, you know, oh, online and internet is ruining our lives and our relationships.

It actually very much depends on what you're doing online.

So, the initial research that said that it was ruining our lives didn't demarcate whether you're like watching porn all day online or whether you're interacting with people online.

So, on balance, it's actually better for our relationship.

It doesn't replace

the

need for that innermost circle of people that you can rely on.

But on balance, it does create those kind of connections that are overall good for our health.

So we are saying that this connection is healthful and good for us,

but

we have to remember what you said, that the ones that are good for us are the ones that are stable and that are positive.

and that are reciprocal.

So

all of these, especially women, I feel like, you know, these relationships that we feel duty bound to,

friendships that we feel duty-bound to, because we don't culturally have a path of getting ourselves out when a friendship is not healthy.

If a friendship constantly makes us feel bad or is creating trauma or drama over and over again, and we're only there because of some feeling of owing or loyalty,

or

if, because that's negative, that's not positive, or if the relationship is one-sided,

if we're not, like Lovie always says, my friendships are charging stations, like if we are not leaving friendships feeling like, or time together, feeling like in one way or another, we were expanded during that time.

We were comforted, we were tethered, we were given more wisdom, we were

helped.

Right?

Not in a transactional way, but in a real human way.

If we're the ones who are just always giving or always

owing,

then that is not the kind of relationship.

It's not any friendship that's life-giving and healthful and helpful.

It's relationships that are stable, that are positive, and that are reciprocal.

And the interesting thing about that is that I think we, you know, People are complicated.

So we all have a lot of relationships where there, there may be the value of the relationship is that it does score really high on the very long-term factor right you know i've known this person for 20 years i've and so there's there's a lot there that keeps us

but the interesting thing is that we all know toxic relationships bad for our health like actually physically bad for us that's why a high conflict marriage is more dangerous for you health wise than a divorce you know there's so toxic relationships bad, but then there's this whole other set of this kind of mixed bag, which many friendships are, where it's it's both like super satisfying on this level, but makes me feel like shit

on this level.

The the most interesting research, and it's just starting to be done right now, but is suggesting that what they call those ambivalent relationships.

So you rate it like five on one factor, but like two on the other, that those ambivalent relationships are bad for us too.

Oh, it's like, what did Brene say?

The near enemy?

That's right.

It's not the opposite.

So, so it's not the people who we, who are enemies that are most dangerous to us.

It's our friendships that we're wasting time with because they are ambivalent.

Right.

We say to ourselves, okay, the good outweighs the bad.

Like, oh, yes, they are.

They always make me feel like shit with this thing, but look at all these other good things.

So we net out at a plus.

So it's okay.

The new research is showing that that ambivalence is, is rated closely to toxic.

Cause life is short and life is hard and good enough is rarely good enough.

That's good.

I love it.

And I, it's, it's really interesting because I've had a couple of friends in my getting sober situation that

that I realized in my sobriety that it was just a one-sided relationship.

She's a cold-hearted snake.

I remember one person that you would just talk to on the phone, and the person would not ask you a single question about your life ever.

That's right.

It would start, and the other person would start talking about their life, and you would ask them questions, and then the conversation would end every single time,

and the person would never ask you about your life.

That's right.

That's right.

That's what we call not reciprocal.

Yes.

That's what we call hostage.

I just think that it's really important that, like, your instinct on any kind of like offness in a friendship to not want to participate in, the research shows that that's actually good.

Like my lower barometer of, you know, the quality of a friendship is lower, probably because I've had to be around people that have been like pseudo-friends for

a lot of my life.

I do think now, though, we're being very intentional about the friends we're making.

And we've made more friends or actually

been in friendship.

We're dating.

We're dating.

We're starting

relationships.

We're in the very beginning.

Okay.

I'm not ready to commit, but we are.

I'm ready to commit.

I just

think they're into you.

I think they might be into you.

I think there's a friend couple that are into us and we're into them and we're excited.

And interestingly enough, I can think of two couples that we, they're both queer couples that we are dating and that we feel are positive and reciprocal.

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I just want to go back to what you said.

I actually like the way that you are more than I like the way that I am.

So when you said it's good that you're like so judgmental about everyone.

I didn't say that.

It's what you were saying.

It's what you were saying.

Your constant critique critique of the world turns out to be accurate much of the time.

Well, and by the way, what a constant critique of the world is and people and what I was talking about is it's fear.

It's all fear.

It's like, what is if I let that person close to us,

what is going to happen?

And what if I can't get out of it?

And what?

So it's not, it's, it's fear.

And I actually love the way that you are with your

more openness.

And I think that it would be wonderful for us to to like

have a balance.

I think we should meet in the middle somewhere because guess what?

One of my deep fears is

people not loving me for who I am, but loving me for all this peripheral bullshit, soccer or whatever.

Right.

And what I love about you and like your structure and your standard for friendship is that it weeds out.

the riffraff.

Oh, yeah.

The people who would only love you for that.

Yes, it does.

Like that.

I got my eye on Sam the Surfer.

I'll tell you that.

I mean, I think the whole thing is so interesting because it comes back to that idea of tethered, right?

Like the opposite of tethered is untethered.

And there's a lot of freedom and there's a lot of control in that.

You are unaccountable to anyone.

You are living your life.

People can see you from afar.

You're floating around, but no one can see you that much up close.

Oh, Jesus.

When you are tethered to someone, there is accountability there.

There's a responsibility to that.

They can see you,

right?

And that's the good news and the bad news.

That is so beautiful and so true.

And I think when you're saying that, it's like I've figured that out in my relationship, my family.

It's the held and free.

Yes.

When it comes to friendship, I am free as a bird and not held in any way.

And it's like wanting those

wanting to be seen up close, also.

That is so beautiful.

Okay, so I'm actually extremely excited about this topic now.

I was dreading it, but I think that you know, I'm 45 years old.

46.

Am I?

I'm not 46.

Are you being serious?

I think so.

No, no, no, no, no.

You were born Google it, sister.

Oh my god.

You were born 76 or

four.

44.

45.

45.

45.

Sorry.

It changes every year.

Anyway, I'm 45 years old, and I think this is like an important

next frontier.

I really want to explore the idea of friendship and how to have it and how to keep it and how to make my life better with it and how to be tethered by it.

That's why we moved to LA.

So the good news is we are actually doing

very well.

We're doing well.

I think.

I think so too.

I'm sweaty about it still.

But so here's what I want to hear.

And I want to know if you both think this is a good next right thing, because I know that

some of the people that were listening to this related.

And I think that there's probably a hell of a lot of people who did not relate to what we were saying and who, because they have really life-giving,

long-lasting or stable, positive

and reciprocal friendships, and that they have learned how to make that work in their lives.

And I want to hear from them.

Okay.

So pod squatters, if you are a human being who is nailing this friendship thing.

Okay.

If you have friendships that are life-giving to you,

can you tell us about them?

Would you write to us or

email us and tell us

how you make it work?

Okay.

Give us your stories, but also can you give us your friendship hacks?

And can you tell us, do you ever have DTRs?

And do you ever define the relationships?

DTRs.

DTRs define the relationships.

I also think a Next Right Thing would be interesting because we've just gone through the holiday months where we're telling our family how much we love them and how much they mean to us.

Are we doing that with our friends as much?

These friendships that you say we have that will bring us joy.

When is the last time you had a friend tell you how much you mean to them?

Oh, that's sweet.

And like, like,

when's the last time you've told a friend how much they mean to you?

To me, I just, I, I sent a friend a little care package for her kid and a friend of hers.

She got on the phone and she like teared up on the phone with me.

And she's just like, that meant so much to me.

And like, you mean so much to me.

And like, Katie, if you're out there, like that, that meant a lot.

Like it made me feel not that I was a good friend, but that I had a good friend.

And that was like really important.

So I don't know, go out there and tell somebody that

you consider a friend.

Like make yourself vulnerable and tell them that like

you love them.

That's awesome.

Call us and tell us 747-200-5307.

747-200-5307.

And to all of you, thank you for being our friends.

Thank you for being a friend.

We love you and we will see you back here.

Thursday.

Thursday.

When life gets hard, don't forget we can do hard things.

Just not friends.

I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle.

I walked through fire.

I came out the other side.

I chased desire,

I made sure I got what's mine.

And I continue

to believe

that I'm the one for me.

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line.

Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are map.

A final destination,

you lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a hard game.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem.

Sometimes things fall apart.

And I continue

to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took some time,

but I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

A final destination

we lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to

know.

We'll finally find

our way back home.

And through the the joy and pain

that our lives

bring

we

can do hard

today

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay with that.

We've stopped asking directions

to places

they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to belong.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do hard things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do hard

things.

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