26. SEXUAL DESIRE: How do we know who and what we really want?

Speaker 1 I chased desire.

Speaker 1 I made sure

Speaker 1 I got what's mine.

Speaker 2 Everybody, welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. We are so grateful that you keep returning.
Thanks.

Speaker 2 So, Abby and Amanda and I are talking about sexuality

Speaker 2 today.

Speaker 2 So, we're not talking about the act of sex okay that episode was a couple weeks ago and you know we nailed that we're done we totally understand sex now so today

Speaker 1 sex queen speak for yourself

Speaker 3 speak for yourself silent sex queen

Speaker 2 um it's just so funny because i am so neither silent nor a sex queen and that's why that title i just love so much i'd beg to differ oh babe thanks thanks

Speaker 2 So today we're not talking about the act of sex or the manifestation of sex. We're talking about what sex feels like inside of us before and after it's acted upon.
Okay.

Speaker 2 So what we mean is we're talking about the desire

Speaker 2 inside of us that eventually perhaps compels us toward the act of sex. So it's like we're not talking about the eating of the cupcake, okay?

Speaker 2 But the hunger that compels us to pick a certain flavor and devour it.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 We're talking about hunger, about desire, about what turns us on and off and why and when

Speaker 2 and how labels, and frankly, being a woman,

Speaker 2 can cause us to stop exploring completely our own desire.

Speaker 2 Okay. But first, most importantly, we are talking about how Abby Wombach

Speaker 2 discovered she was gay

Speaker 2 while out to dinner with her parents at the macaroni grill. You know, it's just a story as old as time.

Speaker 2 Who among us has not discovered we were gay at the macaroni grill with our mom and dad? Before we get to the macaroni grill story,

Speaker 2 answer this question: Abby Wombach, are you a gold star lesbian?

Speaker 2 Define it and then answer the question.

Speaker 1 So gold star gay is a person who has never had to experiment with somebody of the opposite sex to prove that they were gay or not or have an experience.

Speaker 1 So a gold star lesbian is somebody who's only been with women.

Speaker 1 And a gold star gay man has somebody who's only been with men, right? So I, surprisingly enough, am not a gold star gay.

Speaker 3 It's like, it's like purity culture for queers.

Speaker 2 Exactly. It's so annoying.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I mean,

Speaker 1 when I was growing up, my sexuality was confusing, you know, because I had this Catholic church

Speaker 1 on my back.

Speaker 1 telling me I'm going straight to hell. So it's like, well, I gotta,

Speaker 1 I mean, I gotta try this thing. Right.
So who did you date first?

Speaker 2 Don't tell names, but

Speaker 1 I just had a, I had a boyfriend in high school for many years, for like four years, actually. Okay.

Speaker 1 And he was wonderful. Uh-huh.

Speaker 1 He was wonderful. We had a wonderful time.

Speaker 3 But it's getting so pissed right now.

Speaker 2 No, never. I only am jealous of women, not boys.

Speaker 2 Who could be jealous of boys?

Speaker 1 And so, and by the way, babe, I'm sorry about this next part.

Speaker 1 oh i know the macaroni grill it's so just go ahead i'm gonna be brave tell us what happened that night so this one day i went to dinner with my parents i had my school uniform on which consisted of corduroy navy blue pants hot a white a white turtleneck oh and just like a winter jacket because it was cold so it was like super sexy this day i was feeling it yes

Speaker 1 yes and you know at the macaroni grill the waiters and waitresses they they come over and they write their names in crayon upside down. They're like able to actually write their own name

Speaker 1 on the paper tablecloth. Yeah, on the paper tablecloth.

Speaker 1 So our waitress walks over and she writes her name upside down and happens to

Speaker 1 graze with her hand my pinky finger.

Speaker 2 Who the hell did she think she was?

Speaker 1 Crazy. Ever since this moment, my life has been totally different.

Speaker 2 Okay, I need you to hear about the graze. The moment of the Greys, what happened inside of you? Like, what was it?

Speaker 1 There was, there was straight, it felt like electric. It felt energy.
It felt like, whoa, what just happened? It was like, were you like, it was there?

Speaker 3 She is.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 2 There someone is. It was just a there someone is.

Speaker 1 There's a person

Speaker 1 who interests me. Yes.

Speaker 1 And, you know, I unfortunately at the time, I was like a senior in high school and kind of famous already in my hometown, so I was very anti-fame.

Speaker 1 Like, I didn't want people to only see me as a soccer player, so I never ever talked about myself or my

Speaker 1 whatever, my talent.

Speaker 1 And so, when she touched my finger and I was like, What the heck is going on?

Speaker 1 I just immediately just like

Speaker 1 was like

Speaker 1 word vomiting on how good I was.

Speaker 2 This sounds familiar, actually.

Speaker 1 This was my game. This is all I had.
I was like, yeah, I play soccer.

Speaker 2 She was like Nino cheese fries or onion rings.

Speaker 1 And you're like, macaroni grill. It was nachos.
Oh, okay. Okay.
Got it. Got it.
Got it.

Speaker 1 And so, yeah, it was this really

Speaker 1 interesting and beautiful moment for me because I had spent the previous four years, literally, with my ex-boyfriend, wondering

Speaker 1 what this was supposed to feel like.

Speaker 2 Did it ever feel like that zappy thing with the boyfriend?

Speaker 1 No, no, no, and this was not his fault, right?

Speaker 3 Of course not.

Speaker 1 I tried really hard to feel all of those feelings, and it was just a literal graze that made me go, oh, I understand.

Speaker 1 Like, I am completely, now I get it. Like, now I understand that I was like, I was just going going down the wrong way on

Speaker 1 a one-way street. I was just like,

Speaker 2 can you briefly tell us what, how you followed up that

Speaker 2 experience? Because I love this so much. It's just so everything I love about you.

Speaker 1 Well, this is my hope. At the time, I felt hopeless, romantic.
So because of this like very minuscule amount of fame that I had in my in my city growing up in Rochester, New York, I

Speaker 1 typed out a letter

Speaker 1 and I explained the entire interaction, what happened, how I felt, but I left it anonymous for fear of,

Speaker 1 I don't know, being caught as gay and being like found out.

Speaker 1 And then I sent it to the macaroni grill anonymously.

Speaker 1 I did.

Speaker 2 To just information, just general the macaroni grill. So, babe, what did the letter say? Just give us a few sentences.

Speaker 1 Yeah, just like, hey, I went, I was a customer of yours. I felt something.
There was an energy there. I don't know what to do about it because I've never felt this way about a girl.
And

Speaker 1 all of these things. And so then I sent it to her anonymously and I said, if you have any inkling who this could be, just call me.
Look me. My parents' number is in the phone book.
Look me up.

Speaker 1 And she freaking called me.

Speaker 3 Wait, wait, wait, wait. If it was anonymous how did so so because she felt it too is how she felt it too and she knew it was abby wombok she knew sugar grays heard round the world

Speaker 1 oh

Speaker 2 this woman is freaking powerful and and i hope i'm so glad that lady didn't write her book first wait so her untamed book she called your parents phone number and said hi this is crayon

Speaker 3 girl from the macaroni grill

Speaker 1 that's right And, you know, I was so nervous because

Speaker 1 I answered the phone, thankfully. And then I kind of played it off like I didn't know what she was talking about because I was so nervous.
Like I didn't know how to

Speaker 1 respond. And she was like, so I got this letter.
And I was like, a letter? What do you, okay? Like, what do you mean? She said, oh.

Speaker 1 You didn't write me this letter. Okay.
I'm so sorry to bother you. I was like, no, no, no, no, I wrote you the letter.
I just didn't know.

Speaker 1 I've never done this before. It was like, this is like, you know, the late 90s dating app.
This is like how we used to do it, people.

Speaker 2 Right. And then, just real quick, because I don't, we don't need to get into the details of this.
You did get together.

Speaker 2 You did some making out.

Speaker 2 The making out was different than the making out with the boy in what ways? Like, not anatomically. I just need to know, like, the feeling.

Speaker 1 I mean, it was like, oh, this is, this makes sense. Like, I didn't, there wasn't like a forcing of anything.
It was just a, like, it was like, uh,

Speaker 1 it was like, it's like the difference of like hearing a song that you love listening to. And that like feels good.

Speaker 1 And it's, it, like, it, it's like you're expect, like whatever you're expecting next to here, you kind of hear.

Speaker 1 And then, and then the other side of the coin is like, you're just listening to a song and it's it's like a song and it just doesn't do anything for you.

Speaker 2 Okay. So would you say that the grays and that first experience, did you know that you were gay after that? And do you consider yourself gay? Like, what's your label? And when did you, quote, no?

Speaker 1 Yes. I felt like the minute I,

Speaker 1 first of all, having this experience with your parents to your left and right was the most odd thing that ever happened to me.

Speaker 1 But after this experience, I was like, oh,

Speaker 1 this is making a lot of sense. Like this is why

Speaker 1 it just like made a lot of my life was like, oh,

Speaker 1 I had been like kind of avoiding it and ignoring it and,

Speaker 1 you know, denying it for so long that this moment was like, oh, no, this is what I've been. hoping to feel with this boy.

Speaker 1 Like this is what I thought I was supposed to feel, but never did and was forcing that subject. And so now it just made sense.
And so this was an identity that felt more real and true.

Speaker 1 Um, and one that was scary as hell, by the way, because then I had to like go about tell my friends. Yeah.
Um, and like that's a whole different conversation.

Speaker 1 But like, yeah, I started to label myself as gay. I wasn't, I wasn't at the lesbian word quite yet because that just felt so freaking aggressive early on in my gayness.

Speaker 2 I got that. So you were gay,

Speaker 2 you landed on a gay non-lesbian for a while?

Speaker 1 No, I never, no, I just never, like, I don't know, there was something when I was younger. I mean, it's probably just the homophobia inside me.
Yes, of course. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That, that the word lesbian scared the hell out of me, right? So I just, I got comfortable enough with gay, the word gay, and now I'm fine with lesbian.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 1 Are you doing okay, honey? No, I'm great.

Speaker 2 I'm great. I'm, I'm still mad at her, that waitress.

Speaker 1 you're mad at her?

Speaker 2 Yeah, just in general, I'm mad at everyone that has anything to do with you.

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Speaker 2 So I

Speaker 2 had a similar experience

Speaker 2 with you, right? I mean, I remember the grazing moment. I remember the seeing you and having the, oh my God, moment.

Speaker 2 But the story I want to tell about the sexuality thing is something that I've never told anyone except for you because you were there, but I've never spoken about it or written about it or anything.

Speaker 2 And babe, this is the time.

Speaker 2 So we met, we had our there she is moment at a librarian's convention where I saw you and understood that something wild was happening inside of me that had to do with with desire and sexuality.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I used to explain it as like love at first sight, whatever people say that is. And I actually don't think it's that like

Speaker 2 weird and magical. Like I think it was desire, like the first desire that I felt, right?

Speaker 2 Because love at first sight sounds like something magical that like fairy dust comes and sprinkles on some people and not on other people. And that isn't how I think of it anymore.

Speaker 2 I just think I felt like real desire for the first time. Like, I woke, right?

Speaker 2 But it was so confusing to me.

Speaker 2 And so, you know, you and I were friend, like, trying to be friends or something. I don't know what we were doing for a while.

Speaker 2 We were trying to, you know, through email, figure out what was happening between us for a good while.

Speaker 2 And one weekend,

Speaker 2 okay, I had to go speak at this convention of some sort. And all I can tell you is that

Speaker 2 I got an Uber or something from the airport to this convention and it was in Pennsylvania. Okay.

Speaker 2 And so the car started driving me through all of these mountains to the middle of what I felt like was nowhere.

Speaker 2 It was beautiful, this beautiful rolling country, but nothing around and pulled up to this hotel that was, I think it was in Pennsylvania Dutch country. Okay.

Speaker 2 So, um, so it was so precious and also, um, all wooden and very kind of old-fashioned looking. So, when I walked into my room, there was, I just remember seeing a sampler.

Speaker 2 There was a big sampler on the wall that said that I was supposed to fear the Lord. That's all I remember.
There was a big fear the Lord sampler.

Speaker 2 But the weird thing is that the fear the Lord sampler that was hand stitched was above a green

Speaker 2 triangular, huge hot tub that was in the middle of the bedroom so it was like um amish boogie nights if you will like

Speaker 2 um just just jarring right just um

Speaker 2 confusing i didn't know what vibe i was supposed to be going for like sexy or completely unsexy i was alone it was for a mental health convention okay so What I remember is that you and I earlier in that day had been having talk about sexuality.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 And gayness and straightness and queerness and this a spectrum, which is how we used to think of it, like a spectrum. Like everybody falls somewhere along the line on a spectrum, just a line, right?

Speaker 2 Which now feels way too binary and

Speaker 2 uncomplicated to feel real. But that's what we were talking about that day.
And I was kind of hinting to you that maybe I might not

Speaker 2 feel as straight as my life would suggest to the world that I was.

Speaker 2 So I'm standing in the bathroom of this Amish

Speaker 1 porn room. I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 And starting to get ready for this convention. And I texted you something that said,

Speaker 2 I don't know, I'm trying to, maybe I am, maybe I have more gay in me than I know. And you texted me back and said, well, if you, if you want to know, take this.
Kinsey scale test. Okay.

Speaker 2 So you sent me this quiz

Speaker 2 and it was the Kinsey scale. And I took the quiz and I said, what did you get?

Speaker 2 And I remember, do you remember?

Speaker 2 My score was much higher than yours.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you were, you were higher on the Kinsey scale, meaning you had, you had more gayness activities.

Speaker 2 And I just remember thinking, wait,

Speaker 2 I am gayer than Abby Wombach?

Speaker 2 Like, that feels like real. Isn't she the gayest gay that ever gay? Like, this feels like important information.
And then

Speaker 2 this thing happened from which there was no turning back. You,

Speaker 2 I'm standing there in the bathroom, having just taken the Kinsey test, and you said, but listen, none of these quizzes will tell you if you're gay. Here's the thing that will tell you that you're gay.

Speaker 2 I want you.

Speaker 2 She said, where are you? I said, I'm in the bathroom in Amish land. You said,

Speaker 2 I want you to listen to this song that I'm going to you.

Speaker 2 And after you listen, you will know if you're gay.

Speaker 1 Now, all the people who are listening to this right now are like, send me the song. I know.
I know. I need to know if I'm gay or not.

Speaker 2 Okay. So, and I just would like to disclaim this by, this is not a test of whether you're gay or not.
Okay. Like, thank you.
But I will tell you, it worked for me.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 So, you sent me the song Drive by Melissa Farrick.

Speaker 1 Okay. And all the lesbians around the world applause.
Okay.

Speaker 2 So all I can tell you, my precious We Can Do Hard Things listeners, is that

Speaker 2 I pressed play on the song.

Speaker 2 I freaking,

Speaker 2 my entire,

Speaker 2 the thing that we're talking about, the desire, the sexuality, this wild energy inside of us, just

Speaker 2 bing, bing, bing, bing, like all of the lights lights up, all of the desire, all of the turned on, all of it, all of it, all of it. By the end of the song, I was like, well, that's it.

Speaker 2 I am gay as gay can freaking be. Like, this is, it's over.
It's over for me. Melissa Farrick solidified it.
And

Speaker 2 yeah, that was it. That was it.
That was, and by the way, I still, you know, that I have all kinds of issues with labels. So

Speaker 2 we'll talk about that later. But that's when when I knew that there was no turning back.
And now

Speaker 2 I would like to know, sister, when did you know you were straight?

Speaker 1 Thank you. This is a very important question.

Speaker 3 It's a good question.

Speaker 2 Are you straight?

Speaker 3 Well, I mean,

Speaker 3 I've never listened to that song, so I can't be sure.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 3 I mean, I guess I knew I was straight when I wasn't burdened with any anxiety or struggle with not fitting into

Speaker 3 the assumption that I was heterosexual.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 also, we should say, if we're saying heterosexual and homosexual in this pod,

Speaker 3 I realize that homosexual is not a favored term and it's outdated, but we might say it because it might be historically relevant. But

Speaker 3 it just didn't occur to me that I wasn't like quote unquote normal. And so I never wrestled with any of that.
And I do remember when you,

Speaker 3 when you talked about that desire thing, I remember the first time I felt attraction of any kind.

Speaker 3 And I was in the fifth grade and I was watching one of your softball games sitting on a hill and this boy rode his bike up the hill. And he just kept riding it like up and down the hill by me.

Speaker 3 And I, we didn't say anything to each other, but we were just looking at each other.

Speaker 3 And it was the first time that I became aware that there could be a force field between people, just like based on nothing, but just like pheromones or I don't know what, but it was like, I, I, I remember being a little bit shocked by that situation because there was no talking and there was no any kind of contact, but I, but I was like, that was a thing that just happened.

Speaker 3 That was just

Speaker 3 how it worked out for me. And I never wrestled at all with my sexuality.

Speaker 3 And I want to talk about that because it's relevant to this podcast, which is that I think that my not wrestling with any of it has been a disservice to my life because

Speaker 3 I feel like if questions of sexuality are like,

Speaker 3 it's like an exploration. It's like a decision tree of sorts.
I never really got off the trunk of the tree because I feel like when I didn't feel like a misfit

Speaker 3 and I knew I was a heterosexual and that was kind of the end of my inquiry. Like it was like attracted to boys, check, analysis complete, moving on to other things.

Speaker 3 And I, when you said that we were going to be doing this talk about sexuality, I was genuinely confused because we had already talked about sex, we had already talked about gender.

Speaker 3 And I was like, what else is left? We already did that.

Speaker 3 Like I, I didn't, and i think that's when i realized that because i've never wrestled with any of those questions about sexuality i never asked any of the questions or got answers that a lot of people

Speaker 1 who

Speaker 3 have

Speaker 3 that kind of

Speaker 3 not

Speaker 3 fit at the beginning actually wrestle with you know like your how you think about your sexuality your sexual identity your value system what you

Speaker 3 what you experience what makes you attracted and interested in your preferences. I mean, these are things that I never explored.
They're things that like

Speaker 3 require by definition, imagination and experimentation.

Speaker 3 And I

Speaker 2 for everybody, right? Not just people in a, in an outside group, for everybody of any sort.

Speaker 1 I think that that's, yeah, that's what she's trying to say here is like, it's, she's just missed out on the exploration of her own sexuality because

Speaker 2 she checked the first box.

Speaker 1 That the first box gets checked. And like, that's such a gift that us gay folks, not being in the majority, get because, like, we are forced to, right? Like, sister, go more.

Speaker 1 I'm fast. That's so fascinating to me.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Do you feel like you were stunted? Like, you were actually stunted by being part of the check the first box group?

Speaker 3 I mean, I get that all of the stuff that, you know, marginalized sexualities comes at a very high price. You know, you lose people, you like the massive discrimination in society, all of that.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 yet

Speaker 3 there is a part of me that's envious because it's a, it is an area of my life that is completely unmined, like just like pathetically, uncritically explored.

Speaker 3 Like there's so much of my life that I, that I really, that I really think about and really think, like, what, who am I in this area? Who do I want to be? What, what is true to me?

Speaker 3 And I never, because i never had to define anything for myself i never did

Speaker 2 so it's like is an unexamined sexuality even worth having it's so fascinating because it reminds me of other things

Speaker 2 like faith okay like when people feel okay

Speaker 2 with their religion that that was handed to them

Speaker 2 I mean, when people feel like misfits or outsiders,

Speaker 2 I mean, the wrestling, I never felt like I fit inside of Christianity.

Speaker 2 So the wrestling I had to do with religion, with faith, I mean, you know, like the years of just like, wait, what is this religion? What is this?

Speaker 2 Why don't I feel like I can fit here or there anywhere? Leaves me with a very examined faith.

Speaker 1 Yep.

Speaker 2 And when I ask people, sometimes like there will be somebody inside Christianity and I'll say, okay, but like, do you, you seriously believe that like most people are going to hell?

Speaker 2 And they will, sometimes they will like say to me, well, I haven't really like thought that all the way through. And I'm like, Are you freaking kidding me? So it's like that.

Speaker 2 It's like, if you don't feel like a misfit, you don't wrestle with enough to make your own.

Speaker 3 And it's, it's majority group identification. Like that's that when you are, when you have been in the, we call it privilege, right?

Speaker 3 When you are in the position to be in the majority group, you have the luxury of never examining anything within your majority group. So, you know, it's the same way with white people.

Speaker 1 I mean, with you don't,

Speaker 3 very many of us don't see ourselves as having any race or any culture. We are the default.

Speaker 1 We are the normal.

Speaker 3 It's the people, the people who have races and cultures are the people who are not the default. And so we don't examine any of that at what it means to be white and how we operate in the world.

Speaker 3 And I just, and it's true that, because I had this hunch where I was like, is it just me or is it just

Speaker 3 are other people out there with these like highly developed sexual identities that will have something to say on this podcast who are hetero?

Speaker 3 And it's true that heterosexuals are rarely asked whether they experience themselves as having a sexual identity, much less about like whether they have conceptualized it in this way. And we do

Speaker 3 have less developed thing. And it's so interesting the way they talk about it.
It's called unreconciled heterosexuality.

Speaker 3 As in like no reckoning, like you've never reckoned with it because you've never actually

Speaker 3 been asked to, been forced to answer the question of what does it mean to you to be a sexual human? And I mean, I certainly hadn't.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Are you interested in doing more of that? Like, do you feel like, cause, cause you, you're saying you hadn't even thought of any of this before we decided to do a podcast about this.

Speaker 2 Has the thinking about this and the research you've been doing, I know you've been sitting with all of this.

Speaker 2 Like, do you feel like reopening this idea of what you're, because it's kind of like, like, if we think of, I've been thinking of sexuality as kind of like appetite.

Speaker 2 If we, if we compare it to food, right?

Speaker 2 It's like, okay, we don't just decide, I like Indian food.

Speaker 2 That's it. We, we then like, can, there's a million different kinds of Indian food and how the spices go and how the, there's like all these different layers of

Speaker 2 investigation that you can do about your own appetites, right? So do you feel like doing more of that or are you just happy with being straight, checking the box?

Speaker 3 Well, I don't think it's just straight or not straight. Like what, what I'm saying about not developed sexual identity doesn't have to do with, am I secretly a queer person?

Speaker 3 Because I've never asked that question. No, it has to do, and some of us probably, yes, the answer is yes.
But I think even beyond that, like, what does it mean

Speaker 3 to identify, to listen to my body, to identify my sexual hungers, to

Speaker 3 think about what I might actually like, what I might actually not like, to really like get to the heart of that. And I think I am.

Speaker 3 I think I am interested in that. And I mean, I think it reminds me of

Speaker 3 when you last week went to that van gogh

Speaker 3 exhibit and so it's supposed to be this like 360 projection of all of these like beautiful art on the on in the room where you can like walk around it and and i called you right after i was like how'd it go and you were like it was nice it's really nice and i was like oh

Speaker 3 Okay, that's interesting. Like, supposed to be like really spectacular, but that's great.
And then, and then you realize later that the whole time you had been in the sitting room before,

Speaker 3 like you never actually like went

Speaker 3 into you the whole, the whole time you and the family like masked up, just sitting in the waiting room thinking that was the intimate.

Speaker 2 Because they had, just to be clear, they had some things on the walls.

Speaker 1 Right. So, right.
So we, it was tricking us into thinking

Speaker 2 and our family, we have trained our kids to near, like, they are so conditioned that they better be grateful for what everything we take them to. But they all just sat there and stared at the walls.

Speaker 2 And then we left. And they were like, it was great.
Thanks. And then we figured out there was, we weren't in the, we weren't in it.

Speaker 2 There was a whole massive, gorgeous experience that we just paid for the tickets. It was like the times where I go to McDonald's and I pay and then I just leave.

Speaker 2 I forget to stop

Speaker 1 at the window and pick up the food.

Speaker 2 I just get anxious and drive away. It was like that.
It was the Van Gogh.

Speaker 1 I think we had the experience of literally walking in and I was last

Speaker 1 and my family just sat down in the very first space that they could see with their eyes rather than exploring. the whole space.

Speaker 2 Okay, so this is what sisters get.

Speaker 1 Exactly. So

Speaker 3 that's what it is. That's what I,

Speaker 3 that's what I want for my sexuality. Like, I don't want to find out at the end of this that I spent the whole time in the waiting room where I assumed I was supposed to stand.

Speaker 2 And you just act, and you just acted grateful. It has.

Speaker 3 I just don't, like, I don't want to find out that there was this whole other room, just a little exploration away that that would have taken my breath away. I just,

Speaker 3 there,

Speaker 3 there is,

Speaker 3 I don't want to be unreconciled. Like I want to have like a reckoning and I want to actively conceptualize this and I, and do the things I've never explored.

Speaker 3 And it's scary because you have to be brave enough and vulnerable enough to like ask the questions I've never asked and try the things.

Speaker 2 Yes, and say words.

Speaker 1 And say words.

Speaker 2 But like to all the people listening right now, because I feel like I think we need to clarify also what this can mean, because we're not saying that you are doubting that you suddenly think you're gay or that when you say you want to go to the other room, that you mean you have to try a bunch of different partners or we're not talking about that.

Speaker 2 You are committed in a relationship. You're talking about exploring your individual,

Speaker 2 we're not talking about changing labels.

Speaker 2 No, we're talking about something deeper than that, way deeper than that, like exploring your individual sexuality with your partner as if I had different that just because just because I am a heterosexual person does not mean

Speaker 3 that I should not have a depth of understanding of my own

Speaker 3 self that I have explored in what I want. And I think part of being in the majority group and never having to like,

Speaker 3 you know, climb off the trunk of the tree,

Speaker 3 that I've just never,

Speaker 1 ever thought about those things.

Speaker 1 Well, and I'm obsessed with some of the like, I don't know, you know, the like the real sex shows that you watch growing up where it was kind of like a sexual awakening that people go in and take classes.

Speaker 1 And, like, some of the things that they teach women, especially, to do is to literally just look at your body, right?

Speaker 1 Like, to actually get a mirror and like look down there and see what parts are down there, and like, literally look at yourself.

Speaker 1 So many of us are terrified, or don't, or have never actually inspected our own sexual parts, you know, our sex parts. And so like, that's like a step that you can do without a partner.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 I think that sometimes we think about these new rooms we might have to go into has to include somebody else.

Speaker 1 But, you know, to explore your own sexuality, I think that that's a very individualized thing.

Speaker 2 I mean, I was in a bathroom by myself with a with a with a fear of the Lord sampler.

Speaker 1 It was me.

Speaker 2 It was me, a very vengeful God, threatening me

Speaker 2 and not to be a lesbian

Speaker 2 melissa farrick abby wombach but at the end of the day i was by myself right for me all the life-changing

Speaker 2 things happen in the bathroom it's like it's like that you know they said god is in the details but actually she's in the bathroom like that's the place i get realist and ask the

Speaker 2 you know, it's like you have that party self, and then you have the bathroom self where it's just for you, real, like really you in the bathroom mirror.

Speaker 2 Like, that's how I think about the sexuality thing. Like, I think it's too easy to think, oh, I just have to go try a bunch of different partners.
Like, right, it's actually very deeply personal.

Speaker 2 It's like questioning, it's like starting to question yourself and allowing those thoughts. Like, how many times did I actually think

Speaker 2 I actually think I was meant to be with a woman?

Speaker 2 I actually had those thoughts, I just completely ignored them.

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Speaker 3 To your point about it not being, you know, the other room isn't people, the, you know, the other room isn't other partners or isn't necessarily other partners or even other genders.

Speaker 3 To me, it's the other room isn't even necessarily about sex for me. Like when I know

Speaker 3 the things

Speaker 3 that are about the important parts of my life are all

Speaker 3 ways the same things. They're about my need to control everything.
They're about my unwillingness to be vulnerable. They're about my fear of

Speaker 3 everything,

Speaker 3 you know, I'm thinking about how do I integrate myself and like the richness I want for that part of my life with the what I know deeply about myself and the way that I struggle.

Speaker 3 And like, why can't, why do I think that that wouldn't live over there too?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's so freaking beautiful.

Speaker 2 And I think it's so interesting to think that some of the people who have found the most easy belonging in groups would have the least need for deep self-exploration.

Speaker 2 And the people who have felt like misfits in most of those places, faith, gender, sexuality, even mental health, when I think about that, like how hard I had to struggle for any sort of anything that worked, right, in terms of mental health.

Speaker 2 But how much I learn in all of those areas because I felt like a misfit in all of those places. And so to those people who felt like misfits their whole lives, there are silver linings,

Speaker 2 right? And to people who felt comfortable in all of those faces, there's exciting new work to do that maybe was robbed from you by feeling easy belonging.

Speaker 2 I remember, you know, when

Speaker 2 right after Untamed came out and all anyone asked me is like, what are you? Like we'd start interviewing, what are you now? And no label has ever felt right.

Speaker 2 And we can talk about that at a different, at a different time.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I think what felt, what feels right to me is what you're saying is that I was like unleashing, getting deeper into this wild individual sexuality that I had.

Speaker 3 So, Abby, does it bother you that Glendon won't like claim the label lesbian or queer or gay that she like can't settle on a label?

Speaker 2 Well, I will settle at queer, I think, works, but go ahead, babe.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, I think,

Speaker 1 I don't know, I'm just thinking a lot about what sister was talking about in terms of choosing a label. I think that when you choose a label, I think that that just stifles you no matter what.
Like

Speaker 1 even as a gay person, I think that maybe when I started to say like, I'm gay, then I think I stopped exploring parts of my sexuality. Like, so I don't know if it's about even gay or straight.

Speaker 1 I think it's about the labeling of it. So I don't know, I just, I needed to say that.
I think that that's like actually important for every person to hear, no matter how how you define your sexuality.

Speaker 1 And Glennon, as it relates to you, I trust you in

Speaker 1 the way that we are committed to each other in our marriage and in our friendship and in our sexual lives together.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 it is not my problem.

Speaker 1 It is not my job or

Speaker 1 problem

Speaker 1 to deal with your sexuality or your label. I'm just going to be here and listen and try to mirror to you all the things that you show me or tell me.

Speaker 1 But I think that our bigger conversation is,

Speaker 1 is our labels actually it? Like, are we actually trying to define something that is undefinable and put a label on something that is, you can't?

Speaker 2 Right. And what you said when we talked this weekend is that

Speaker 2 the reason it doesn't bother you that I won't choose a sexuality or can't, it's not that I won't. I'm not trying to be difficult.
I just actually can't find a word that feels correct.

Speaker 2 And I'm a writer. Words are really, really important to me.
Like I will not, I'm always trying to desperately use these freaking symbols that are letters and words to

Speaker 2 accurately,

Speaker 2 you know, send a signal to you that actually really

Speaker 2 represents a true thing inside of me. And it's unbelievably frustrating to me.
Like, you know, they say a writer is someone to whom writing for whom writing is harder than the average bear like

Speaker 2 it's excruciating to me to try to find words that are true enough and there is no label that is true enough for me um

Speaker 2 in regards to sexuality but there's also no label that is true enough for me in regards to faith

Speaker 1 right there is no label that's true enough for me in regard to gender i think that you definitely rebel against anyone trying to put you in any cage,

Speaker 1 even yourself. Like, I think that we can even play this game with our own psyche, like, because some of these labels feel inclusive.
Like, oh, it's a community.

Speaker 1 It's a, this, that makes me feel safe and seen and experienced. Right.
But I think that over the last couple of years, I've watched you

Speaker 1 lane by lane un

Speaker 1 untangle yourself from some of the labels because because I think in the end, we have kind of, we keep finding that they just, the labels are too rigid.

Speaker 2 It paints you into a corner.

Speaker 2 To me, everything after I am, like any word that comes after I am

Speaker 2 feels like a promise that I do not want to make or keep for the rest of my life because it's like painting myself into a corner.

Speaker 2 The only word that I can feel correct about is queer, but it means more to me than just these are all the genders that I prefer to have sex with.

Speaker 2 Like, that's not what, like, I would describe my faith as queer. My gender is queer.
Like, to me, queer just means not that thing that you're saying, not that.

Speaker 2 That's all it means to me is like, I don't know how to describe it. All I know is not that.

Speaker 3 And it's important to acknowledge that, like, your ability to say that

Speaker 3 is

Speaker 3 a privilege that you don't need the security of those

Speaker 3 boxes in that specific community of protection that a lot of those labels offer.

Speaker 3 But it is really interesting because the whole labeling resulted as of like until the 1860s, there was no word heterosexual and there was no word homosexual.

Speaker 3 I mean, that was like 100 and what, 40 years, 60 years ago? This is like a very, very new phenomenon. There was never a discussion of people.

Speaker 3 It had never occurred to people that we could categorize humans based on sexual desire until 160 years ago. That's a very new phenomenon.
And

Speaker 3 the two words were developed at the very same time. And when that happened, very quickly, the word homosexual went from something that was an action, right?

Speaker 3 Like something that people did to a completely pathologized way to describe not what people do, but what a person is.

Speaker 1 Like

Speaker 3 the personhood of that person, it became a kind of to define like deviant and psychiatry adopted it. It started as a legal concept.
Psychiatry adopted it, attached all these meanings to it.

Speaker 3 Now we had all this like medical data. to show that people who engage in this or wish to are infused with all these character traits.
Okay. Then,

Speaker 3 and so, so it's really like a fascinating

Speaker 3 situation where they're defined at the very same time. 30 years later, heterosexuality was defined initially as an abnormal or perverted appetite toward the opposite sex.

Speaker 3 They were both like, this is very, this is odd behavior.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 Then,

Speaker 3 then all the psychiatrists latched on to homosexuality, decided for the first time to transform it into something people do, to something people are.

Speaker 3 And it came with a whole identity.

Speaker 2 And it doesn't, just, just wrapping up here, it actually doesn't make sense on a deep spiritual level or an intellectual level in terms of the way that the human mind, which has a lot to do with desire, desire, right, works.

Speaker 2 It's, it's, we know that the second we label something, our curiosity turns off about it. So this is why, you know, the Buddhists talk about having beginner's mind.

Speaker 2 So the way that you can practice that is like you look at, you look at a rose, okay?

Speaker 2 For a second, you have this moment of awe about it. And the minute that your mind says rose,

Speaker 2 it categorizes it, labelized, the awe goes away.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 You look at your, you know, child or your partner or whatever, and you have this second where your mind is not there and your, your eyes go wide and then your child, like, and it categorize it and the ah goes away so there's something about labeling your sexuality too right what you're saying straight gay lesbian that then you feel like check that's over

Speaker 2 right so just the idea of labels are important to some people not important to another to other people what what we're suggesting is that always they can shut us down if that's as deep as we go

Speaker 2 right that we can come to our sexuality or desire in ourselves in regards to that with this beginner's mind of like, what if,

Speaker 2 you know, when someone says, what's your label?

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 what if that's not the most important question?

Speaker 2 Right. What if we could come to our sexuality with this beginner's mind and, you know, feel a little bit more awe about it?

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Speaker 2 Let's go to the next right thing, which we I think is cool.

Speaker 2 Abby and I went to this cool retreat thing a while back and our friend Esther Perel was there, who a lot of you know. And if you don't, you should look her up.
She's amazing.

Speaker 2 And Erica Cheeti, this other brilliant

Speaker 2 kind of intimacy sexuality teachers were talking to to us about some some of some of this idea that sexuality is just a kind of an uncultivated undiscovered abyss in most of us

Speaker 2 and she said that one of the ways that we can start to get in touch with with ourselves is to ask we had to do this with each other with like strangers it was quite awkward for me um but we had to fill in a blank the fill in the blank was i turn myself on when i

Speaker 2 okay and so there was was no like, you turn me on when I am turned on when, but like, I turn myself on when.

Speaker 2 And of course, for the first five minutes, I was like, well, I can't do this. This is impossible.
What the hell is she talking about? I hate everything. I hate retreats.

Speaker 2 I hate all of it, blah, blah, blah. But actually,

Speaker 2 when you start thinking, and then we had to do, I turn myself off when.

Speaker 2 Okay. And it's, it's actually quite interesting because it makes you start to think of your sexuality and your desire as like your responsibility and your,

Speaker 2 you know, because usually you think about like a partner or whatever, like you turn me off when you don't shower or you turn me off when blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 But this idea that our sexuality is our own to ignite or, or extinguish.

Speaker 1 Personal responsibility in your own sexuality.

Speaker 2 And empowerment.

Speaker 2 Like I turn myself on when I'm like rested, when I'm not on my phone for six hours a night, when I'm, you know, I don't know, like whatever it is for you, like whenever, when you feel sexy or you feel turned on or you feel the idea that you could have some

Speaker 2 agency over that and the fact that we do do things that just shut us down right that turn us off so anyway do it or don't that's this was a lot

Speaker 3 because do it when you think about you know your sexual life it's like what we were talking about the other sex episode where it's like oh my sex life consists of what I do with my partner or whatever.

Speaker 3 But when you think about

Speaker 3 a part of your own self, like I have a sexual self, whether I am with someone or not, whether I have a partner or not, whether

Speaker 3 regardless of what's happening, like just I have a sexual personhood

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 is there, whether I am ignoring it or whether I am actively exploring it. It is yes, it is there, right?

Speaker 2 Yes. And it doesn't always have to be things that are totally sex.
Like the way, do you know what is so, this is probably TMI, but what is that?

Speaker 2 I feel sexy when I go to freaking museums. Like, I don't know.

Speaker 1 Art somehow.

Speaker 2 turns something on inside of me that is, that has to do with, you know, not being productive, that's tied to like the art part of me is tied to the sex part of me somehow.

Speaker 2 I don't know how to explain it, but it's activating

Speaker 1 in a way. Good to know.
This is very good information.

Speaker 2 Abby's gonna book another Van Gogh experience.

Speaker 1 Yeah, soon. Here we go.
We got to get back there because we got to actually have the experience this time.

Speaker 2 Okay, listen, we love you so much. Thank you for hanging in there with us on all of these very tricky but kind of really beautiful conversations.
When things get hard this week, just

Speaker 2 remind yourself that we can do hard things.

Speaker 2 See you soon.

Speaker 2 I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle.

Speaker 2 I walked through fire, I came out the other side.

Speaker 1 I chased desire,

Speaker 1 I made sure

Speaker 1 I got what's mine,

Speaker 1 and I continue to believe

Speaker 1 that I'm the one for me.

Speaker 1 And because I'm mine,

Speaker 1 I walk the line.

Speaker 1 Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on the map.

Speaker 1 A final destination

Speaker 1 lack.

Speaker 1 We stopped asking directions

Speaker 1 to places they've never been.

Speaker 1 And to be loved, we need to be known.

Speaker 1 We'll finally find our way back home.

Speaker 1 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 1 that our lives bring,

Speaker 1 we can do a heart thing.

Speaker 1 I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

Speaker 1 I'm not the problem,

Speaker 1 sometimes things fall apart.

Speaker 1 And I continue to believe

Speaker 1 the best

Speaker 1 people are free,

Speaker 1 and it took some time,

Speaker 1 but I'm finally fine.

Speaker 1 Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are map.

Speaker 1 Our final destination

Speaker 1 stopped asking directions

Speaker 1 to places they've never been.

Speaker 1 And to be loved, we need to

Speaker 1 know.

Speaker 1 We'll finally find our way back home.

Speaker 1 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 1 that our lives

Speaker 1 bring,

Speaker 1 we can do hard thing

Speaker 1 for adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

Speaker 1 We might get lost, but we're okay with that. We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 1 to places they've never been.

Speaker 1 And to be loved, we need to belong.

Speaker 1 We'll finally find our way back home.

Speaker 1 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 1 that our lives

Speaker 1 bring,

Speaker 1 we can do hard

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 2 Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it.
It's fine.