11. REDEFINING FAMILY with Craig: Does letting go of what family “should be” help us embrace the family we have?

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Stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

I'm so thrilled for this episode because one of my favorite people on earth is joining us.

So our family moved across the country recently from Florida all the way to California.

And in the weeks before our move, people kept asking me, wait, is Craig coming with you?

And this question always jarred me completely.

I'd say, of course.

Of course, Craig is coming with us.

Craig is us.

We'd just as soon move across the country without Emma as without Craig.

So interesting.

So there is this idea I came across long ago that has stuck with me since then.

And it's this.

The thing that screws us up most is the picture in our head of how things are supposed to be.

The thing that screws us up most is the picture in our head of how things are supposed to be.

I almost walked away from the great loves of my life, from Abby and from this new beautiful blended family we have built because I had a picture seared into my head of what a family was supposed to look like.

It was supposed to look like a nuclear family, like a mom and a dad and 2.5 biological kids and a couple dogs and smiles plastered on all the faces.

Those were whole families.

But families were not supposed to be divorced.

We're not supposed to have two moms.

We're not supposed to live in two houses.

Divorced families were broken.

failed.

Too different from that ideal to be real.

But the harder I looked away from that narrow cultural idea and toward the actual families in my life, the more I thought, wait, is that true?

Because I know plenty of families that are in their original nuclear shape that seem pretty broken.

And I know many families that have changed their original shape, adjusted, bent, evolved, or exist in an entirely unconventional shape.

And they seem vibrant and alive and loving and whole

to me.

And so eventually, I threw away the picture in my head and decided that my definition of a whole family is any family

in any structure

in which its members feel both held and free.

And a broken family is any family in which its members have to break themselves into pieces to belong.

Craig is joining us today.

Craig, my ex-husband, Abby and I's beloved co-parent.

And I was so happy that Craig wanted to join me and sister today to talk about how we all let burn the picture in our heads of who our family was supposed to be.

So we could create and love this family, our actual family, the untamed one in front of us.

Craig and I have been through hell and back several times to get where we are in this conversation, where we respect and trust each other enough to sit sit down and open up our hearts and stories to each other and to you.

Craig is a deeply good, deeply healthy man who has been strong enough to again and again prioritize the joy and safety of our children above resentment, above control, above ego.

I know most of us are not so lucky.

But as you'll hear, it has not all been sunflowers and unicorns.

Is love ever all sunflowers and unicorns?

It's been blood, sweat, and tears, and often still is, but it has, in the end, been love.

All of it.

We recorded this episode a week before we moved.

I hope you enjoy.

I am

so excited to introduce I mean, our first and only real guest to our show.

And he's here because he's not a guest.

He is family and he is one of the five most important human beings in my entire life.

And

you all know him as Craig.

Craig, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Hi, everybody.

Glad to be here.

We're so glad to have you, especially because I don't think that there is anyone with whom I've done more hard things in my life than you, Craig Melton.

So first of all, how are you feeling about the big move?

What are your emotions?

A little stressed, not going to lie, a little stressed.

Yeah.

I'm excited, but I'm also a little sad too.

You know, been down here for what, a decade now, and Florida has been good to us.

Yeah.

But I'm looking forward to a new start.

But I'll be settled when we get out there and the kids are settled.

That's the next thing, right?

So

I think that is what's creeping into me.

I'm like, oh, now that we've promised them that this is going to be so amazing, like we have to help them make a life out there.

It's a lot of pressure.

Oh, it's a lot of pressure.

Yes.

Yes.

Once again, did we think this all the way through, Craig Melton?

No, I'm excited too.

And nobody else that we would, we would be doing this with than you.

Let's get kicked off this way.

So

the world has heard my perspective on us and our story a million times.

If you guys could see Craig Melton right now, he's nodding his head, perhaps

a slightly perceptible eye roll, I think I just saw.

Yes, yes, yes.

A million times they've heard it.

But we want to hear your perspective now.

You've been so

generous

with your kind of the freedom that you've offered me to write and to put my art in the world.

And there's always been this Venn diagram about your story.

So first of all, would you like to share the way that you see

our marriage?

Would you like to tell the story of our marriage from your perspective?

Yeah, I'd love to.

I'd love to.

Okay, great.

Let's hear it.

Well, I think,

and you've told a little bit about this before, but I think if we go back even to how

we got there, you know, we were two kids having a great time.

We met in Arlington.

Remember that?

Yes, sort of.

A mutual friend, yes.

But we met at a bar crawl, essentially.

But we went into the marriage, obviously, with,

you know, a very quick shotgun wedding, you know, you getting pregnant with Chase and going from this stage of

partying and being single and no responsibilities to all of a sudden having this,

you know, this moment where we have to be an instant dad, instant mom, and an instant husband and wife.

And I think from your perspective, right, you had that moment when you got sober, which was a shift for you.

It was like this aha moment where you've got to just get, got to get your crap in gear.

You know, for me, I feel like, um,

and I just want to preface this also, nothing that I'm saying about this or any other topic is justifying anything.

It's just more my perspective, right?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

So I would just say for me, I was an autopilot.

I feel like not that I wasn't prepared, but I had no clue how to be a dad, no clue how to be a husband.

And

I just remember going into it, just being almost like, like eyes wide open, just shocked about how, how much of a shift and transition it took to be, to be just an adult, you know, to switch that overnight.

Yeah.

You know, I remember your dad sitting us down before.

Remember that?

And your dad.

And he actually sat me down one time, just us two.

saying, this is your moment to either fight or flight.

You know, and it was this, this, this, this conversation where I was like, wow, wow, I've got to really either step up.

And he was like, listen, whatever you do, if you decide to not do this marriage, your son and Glennon and the family will be taken care of.

And if you decide to do this marriage, everybody will be supported as well.

So it was a loving conversation, but I remember that as if it was yesterday.

And, you know, I did what I thought was the right thing.

You know, I don't think we had moments of love and connection to start.

You know, I don't think we built something that a lot of couples do who have the time to build a foundation of love and trust and dreams and goals.

All right, we didn't have that.

We just went, you know, shifting overnight.

So, um,

yeah, I feel like we got off into a good partnership.

I would say our marriage was a partnership where we had division of duties and we, we,

you know, co-parented, sorry, not co-parented, that was later.

We parented well, we parented well you know and um

but uh i feel like i brought things

subconsciously into the marriage that i hadn't dealt with that later manifested themselves into unhealthy patterns obviously um

and we can get into those unhealthy patterns in a minute but

we did parent well i mean

I remember, you know, we divided up those early nights.

Do you remember when Chase Chase would never sleep and we didn't know what the hell we were doing?

And I would take one night and you would take one night and I would, and I would wake up at 2 a.m.

and like peek out the door.

And what you guys need to understand is that Craig would have entire photo shoots with Chase set up.

That's right.

He would have, it was like sailor.

night and Chase would be dressed up with like a sailor hat and a sail and like a background, a red, white and blue background that Craig had set up.

Like you were the most attentive, amazing.

I mean, some of the best memories of my entire life are

the three of us in those early days.

Like we were a good, amazing little unit.

And

it's kind of amazing what we were able to pull off having been thrown into that so fast.

I agree.

I agree.

I mean, those.

Those were amazing moments.

And

I, and I felt like you had to really pass the time.

So why not dress up chasing a Toby Bryant jersey?

Yeah, I remember that at two in the morning.

I know, I know.

Oh my God.

So good.

All those pictures.

Okay.

So then, as the world knows, we

some stuff came later.

Okay.

So

when we asked our We Can Do Hard Things pod squad what they wanted to hear about us talk about.

and not just because of you or me but because of what so many people are dealing with in their own lives i think one of the topics that they wanted to hear about from both of our perspectives was the infidelity so for you listener a decade into our marriage it came out that craig had been unfaithful throughout several times throughout our marriage and that created a whole nother

stage for us.

So

everybody just needs to relax because everybody who's listening right now is probably like oh my god it's okay craig and i are we have talked this up and down and around we have fought it we have cried it we have laughed it we have healed from it we um

are both i think from my perspective there was so much pain but but there was also this knowing since i come from a long history of addiction it is I understand deeply that you can love someone and hurt them at the same time.

That was never when my, when a friend would say to me, How could he?

Like, how could he, if he says he loves you, how could he do it?

I know I love people, loved people deeply and hurt them for a very long time.

So there's just, we are okay.

Craig and I are okay.

So since we're okay, I think we can talk about this.

So, Craig, why all the cheating, dude?

Love it.

I love the directness.

Oh,

This is the first time talking to a big audience about this, right?

I would just say that I was unhappy,

as I think you were as well.

And I

didn't, and I've never,

up to that point, and even a little bit after, was never comfortable bringing up hard things.

I don't come from a family who, and their parents as well, whoever, ever, I don't ever remember talking about hard things.

I don't ever remember sitting down and discussing things that we talked to the kids about today.

And it's nobody's fault.

It's just the way that I was brought up.

And I remember stuffing feelings.

I remember not bringing things up to you.

I remember just suppressing and putting up my wall, all these defense mechanisms to

kind of cope with things that I hadn't dealt with yet.

And obviously that manifested into unhealthy ways and things that I would take back if I could.

Yeah, I just feel like I just kind of knew that there, maybe I was seeking intimacy and connection and couldn't get it.

And then I sought it elsewhere.

And obviously, I should have, should have come to you.

That's the thing now that I look at is that I would, I've grown so much as a person through lots of different, you know, healing ways.

But at the time, I was uncomfortable.

I guess I felt like if I went to you to tell you about the things that I did, that you were going to divorce me and the kids would be traumatized and we'd, you know, all these awful things.

And if I didn't do it,

then I would somehow save the marriage and I'd still be able to navigate life and maybe something wouldn't affect the kids.

But either way, it's going to affect the kids in our marriage.

So I look back at it now and it's, it was stupid of me to not say anything.

But

i get that though i get that i mean when we've we've looked at this a million different ways like if you think of infidelity as like this gem like we've looked at it from every facet like craig and i have tried to analyze this but one of the ways i look at it is i also was craving intimacy

and wasn't getting it and went outside for it not sexually but that is part of what writing is for me what blogging was for me right i mean I remember you one night writing about

having fallen off the wagon of my eating disorder recovery.

And I wrote about it and didn't tell you.

And I remember you coming home and saying, I read about that.

Why didn't you tell me?

It was like we were both, I was emotionally, we were unable to get something from each other and we didn't have the skills or the courage.

or whatever's necessary to bring it directly to each other.

So many people wrote in and said that they have enjoyed hearing my perspective, but what they really want to hear is the person who did the cheating because that person was in pain too and that person has to forgive themselves.

Have you, what is it, has that looked for you?

What has that looked like for you?

Do you feel like you have been able to forgive yourself?

Because certainly everyone else has.

I have, but have you?

And what does that look like?

I mean, it wasn't immediate right um there was a ton of shame and a ton of guilt for those that i've hurt right it was a ripple i mean i kind of look at as a ripple effect of the things that i caused so it took time because i had to

just kind of get over the fact that okay i did this and i have to

i have to forgive myself at some point but it wasn't immediate i mean it took a while it really did it took a while for me to get to that point where i'm like okay i'm okay now like the people around me are okay like we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna do this life this next phase, this next chapter.

We're going to do it together.

But it wasn't overnight.

So.

Yeah.

Well, I think our kids are so lucky that they have parents who

have been really human and made mistakes that human beings made and are open about them and forgive ourselves and each other relentlessly and insist that that's the only way to live.

I just think that we worry so much about our kids thinking we're perfect or never seeing our mistakes, but actually, what our kids need to see is people who make mistakes and carry on and forgive each other and try again, because that's the, that's what they're going to do.

That's what we all do, if we're honest.

So, I'm just proud of you.

Um, so then fast forward, we go through all of this healing and pain, and

you know, trying to find our way back to each other.

And then one day, Craig Melton, I text you.

Do you know where I'm going

with this?

I do.

Okay, so can you tell these lovely people about the text I sent you?

Because we both know what day we're talking about.

Yeah.

So I remember being at a doctor's office and I get a text from you.

And it said,

this is your news day, N-E-W-S.

And the news day, the first news day, was when I told you about in therapy, about all the things that I did.

So when I get the text from you

about

my news day

um my heart sank so creepy that's so creepy craig i'm so sorry god what a creepy thing to say

well my heart sank and my mind went to two places and i said to myself okay

either you're dying

cancer or something or you're gay those are two things that i thought i mean what i i was like, what, what could it be?

And I was out.

So I had to come home.

Like I just

got in the car, rushed home.

And I remember

sitting on the couch with you for

hours.

And

you telling me that,

well, do we want to go into that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, you telling me that you had met somebody.

And I was like, okay,

you know, taking that in and

that you think there's something there.

And I said, hold on, time out.

So you're not dying.

And she's like,

she said, no, I've met somebody.

And I remember just kind of bawling because I thought that you were, I thought that you were,

had some sort of terminal disease.

So

when you went to, when you started talking about this person that you met

at a conference, I think it was,

and that it was a woman, I was like, oh my gosh, it was one of the two things that I thought of.

And you said, so interesting.

Right.

And you said her name was Abby.

And I said, okay.

And you said, I think you might know who she is.

And I said, I was like, I don't know any Abbies.

And she's like, I think you do.

She's like, she's a soccer player, played for the U.S.

women's national team.

And I'm like, oh my God.

Of course I know Abby.

So you all, Craig is a retired soccer player also.

So this is Craig's,

this is Craig's zone.

I have entered.

It's my jam.

Right.

This is his zone.

It's the soccer zone.

Okay.

Sorry.

Go ahead.

So, and it was a feeling of, okay, you're not dying.

I can take a deep breath there.

But then.

this

other huge revelation

in my head thinking, okay, so you're, are you saying you're gay?

Have you met this person?

And I remember you saying, I haven't.

There's been nothing physical.

We've been talking, but I don't want to, I wanted to tell you about it.

And I remember there was a lot of thoughts that went through my head,

curiosity, you know, what does she have that I couldn't provide?

You know, this kind of male ego, you know, I'm a man.

Like, I can certainly please you, or maybe I can't, but like, what, you know,

what did she do, or what did did you guys have connection-wise that, because, you know, maybe I need to take some notes, right?

And I remember you saying

when you first saw her, it was like electricity or lightning bolts or something that it was like this instant connection you had with her.

And I remember for some reason in that conversation, just being like, at some point during that conversation, just saying, well,

I just need to honor that.

That's pretty amazing.

Like, how do you compete with that?

How do you deny that?

I think the words that I said in the conversation, how do you deny that kind of connection?

And at that point, it was like, okay,

let's just put a pause button on this for a second and let's figure out, like, maybe talking to somebody.

Let's figure this out as a

couple, how we're going to go through this together.

How are we going to get divorced?

Are you going to talk to a therapist?

Are we going to, you know, what's the next phase?

But I remember it was two hours.

It was pretty,

I am surprised how we dealt with that together.

Yeah.

with,

I mean, with Grace on both ends, you know, you telling me and you not doing anything physical with her without telling me first.

I mean, just the way that we handled that was pretty amazing, I think.

Yeah, I agree.

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I remember you saying something like, okay,

well, a few years ago, you gave me grace and now I'm going to give it back to you.

It was something about that we'd already been through hell together

that made that different.

I don't know.

It was,

you were amazing.

And I, and, and look, like it got hard later, like we, we didn't stay in that ridiculous place that of grace.

We, we had hard times afterwards trying to deal with the aftermath.

Um, but that I'll never forget that conversation.

It felt to me like that conversation on that couch, even though it was the beginning of the end of our marriage, was one of the first truly honest conversations we had ever had with each other.

I agree.

I agree.

It definitely was.

We were so vulnerable with each other and,

you know, empathetic, right?

We, we just

you had been seeking something emotional emotional connection and intimacy for so long and you seem to have that with this person and and

you know

i love you as the mother of my children so why and if we are going to get divorced at that point then why not try to make this something that can work together, right?

There's no black and white, right and wrong.

It's just this big, messy story we all are living in real time.

And, you know, the truth is, and I wrote about this in Untamed because I didn't look at it this way until after.

But Craig,

when I found out I was pregnant, you told me that you weren't ready to get married.

You told me with your own very adorable mouth that you were not ready to get married.

And I was like, well, that's inconvenient for you since that's what's happening.

better get ready you got 48

saddle up saddle up

all right well i hear what you're saying and i'll give you 48 hours to get ready do you remember what like i just

go ahead do you remember what i said one time when i found that you were pregnant i said well couldn't you just live in another apartment with chase and i'd live right next to you and oh lord have mercy i remember that day yeah you're like um

negative

But Craig, and okay.

All right.

Like that maybe sounds weird, but actually it didn't.

Like you were right.

I know.

In many ways, I mean, no, when you can look, I had this idea.

I had this idea of what a family should look like.

Should look like.

And the shoulds are always these cages, right?

So I was like, no, this is what's going to happen.

I hear what you're saying.

I see you're knowing.

And I'm going to ignore it and steamroll us into this thing that you had told me with your own mouth you were not ready for and you did not want.

So look, I'm not saying that that is an excuse for all the other things.

I'm just saying that's true.

That's what happened, right?

And then there's also this one way to look at it, which is like, I'm sure, you know, you were looking for intimacy.

I mean, I have had people who have read Love Warrior and said to me that they knew that I was gay just from that book,

which is so so wild to me.

But there had to be some part of you that maybe felt like maybe our sex intimacy issues throughout our marriage were because of that, right?

I'm not saying that's black or white either, but I'm sure that entered your mind, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

It's all all tied together.

So talk to us a little bit about, because people want to know, and I think it's fascinating, the way we walked through that time.

Because you reminded me when we were talking about this yesterday, that you and Abby, right after that conversation, started emailing each other right after I told you.

Tell us about that.

So, in my head, I said, Okay, if this is the way

we're going to do life, I need to get to know this person.

I need to get to know this person.

I need to know who Abby is.

If she's going to be

basically responsible for my kids as well, I need to know her.

I need to trust her.

I need to have this relationship with with her.

And I remember she was covering the Euros and I remember emailing back and forth.

She was in France.

I was in Florida.

And we were just having a back and forth email conversation for days,

just getting to know each other.

What do you like?

What's your family like?

What are your expectations?

What do you want?

Like, how would you be with the kids?

Like all these things, right?

And then also still protective of you.

And I said, what do you,

what, what are some of the things that you're going to do to protect Glennon?

Because I, it was still very early on.

And so I was still protective of you and our family unit.

And I remember it was just, I don't know if that's how people do it, but I felt like that was the right thing to do.

I felt like it was the right thing to do.

And she was so amazing.

She just said, listen, you know,

I'm not going to come in.

guns blazing.

I'm not going to do anything that's going to,

you know, rock the boat.

You know, I want to learn from you guys.

I want to see how you guys do things.

And I want to fit in based on your family unit.

And it was just that kind of

tone, I guess, and that kind of welcoming that allowed this co-parenting to start off on a pretty solid footing.

Right.

Yeah.

And your openness to it.

What do, do you remember the first time we introduced Abby to the kids at that pizza

place?

What do you remember about that?

Well, I just remember being pretty surreal because

it was the first time.

Well, first of all, our table did not get left alone because it's Abby Wombach.

So we were on, you know, people were coming over trying to interrupt.

We're trying to have an intimate conversation with the kids.

So we had that, we had that dynamic.

But I remember just.

It being a surreal moment, like Abby just being, again, so open,

welcoming, talkative with the kids, and just loving and kind.

You know, she's always been like that from the start.

I feel like who she is today is how she was on day one.

And I felt like that consistency

has been huge.

So I just remember her just being amazing at that first

meeting.

And remember when we told the kids.

I think that was probably the hardest day of my life.

I actually do think that that was maybe the hardest, saddest day of my life.

Do you?

I would say, yeah, telling the kids was the hardest.

I think the separation before was probably not as hard but that was the first time the kids like saw the family unit kind of a crack in the in this like yeah

that was like the crack where the kids were like what the hell is going on after the infidelity you mean years before the separation yeah yeah I'd say telling the kids about the divorce was the hardest part just from from my perspective just looking at their eyes the sadness the tears the

you know for for me, the shame and guilt that, um, that I'll never forget that moment, which

is one of the things that I always go back to that keeps me humble and grateful is that moment.

Like the pain that I caused them and the extended family is something that I'll never, never forget.

And,

you know, that was, that was the hardest day of my life for sure.

Yeah.

What do you think we did?

What are some things you think we did wrong during that time?

Like, what did we get wrong in that whole

time from when I told you to win to now, or at least in the early days?

Like, how did we screw up?

Because I have some thoughts about when I look back.

Yeah.

I just, I remember sitting in therapy and we were trying to figure out, okay, like when to introduce Abby, you know, and there was these kind of kind of subjective rules and the therapists were saying, okay, well, at least six months.

And I think we introduced Abby in like two or three.

And we said, I see you're six.

We're going to do two or three.

Again, that is very inconvenient for me.

Yes.

The therapist is like, I actually, I'm not ready for this.

And I was like, I see that you're not ready and I'll give you 48 hours.

Yeah.

So I would say, you know, I think we introduced Abby maybe a little bit.

Well, it all worked out.

I agree.

It all worked out.

No, I agree with you.

I agree with you.

But I would have, I would have waited another month or two.

I think I would have probably had the kids in more therapy.

I guess my thing is I'm, you never know what the ripple effect of them as adults is, right?

So I just would have liked to prepare us and the kids and Abby, this, everything a little bit longer.

So that's, I think, what I would have done different.

Yeah.

And maybe

I think also,

I think the first Christmas, right?

That was a first time when

if you remember, we, so

for everybody out there, our Christmases were pretty, pretty standard.

We'd have maybe one big gift for the kids and probably the best thing were the stocking stuffers right the coolest little gadgets and things they love but we'd have maybe one big gift and the first christmas with abby and was

i mean it was a free-for-all

of just anything and everything the latest tech gadgets i mean it was

i remember just I remember coming over to the house and, you know, the presents were open and the kids were super excited, but thinking, how do you top this every year, first of all?

And is this like the right precedent to set for the kids, right?

I know it was a very, it was a very tense time and we're, but I feel like we were all overcompensating, you know, for.

No, you're exactly right.

And that is a thing that happens.

And Craig, just so you know, I still, what are we, five years later, I still freaking find myself doing that.

Like, do you know, it's like this divorce parent guilt.

Like even when you know it's right, even you know, everything's more true true and beautiful, you still have this little, everything that goes wrong.

You think, oh, this is because I got divorced.

This is because, so, I mean, Craig, you know that Tish the other day, she forgot her soccer ball going to practice.

And do you hear what she said to Allie?

She said, Coach Allie, she said, you know, I just, I just still have a really hard time like getting used to having two homes.

Like this little, this little twerp knows that she can still use divorce guilt to get out of.

So what I want to say to you is that you were right completely to be appalled by that first overcompensating Christmas.

And that was all, I think it's something that we should talk about more, that feeling that when you first get divorced, that you were so worried that you screwed up your kids that you screw up your kids.

Right.

Right.

And it was you saying, actually, that's not a family value.

Like over

doing that kind of thing isn't the way.

It probably made you feel scared.

Like, wait, we're not changing our family values, are we?

Yeah, it was definitely intimidating.

I'm, you know, I'm not used to one, spending that much on the kids and going against what we've done consistently for years.

Yes.

You know, and we hadn't talked about this, right?

So I felt like that was a few things that I felt like we could have had a better strategy for, if you will.

Yes.

Yes.

So what did we get right?

I mean, I feel like the first, I feel like what we do well from the start and what we do well now is family meetings.

I feel like giving everybody the ability to have a voice is huge.

When we make little decisions or big decisions, we bring the kids in and we talk about it and we hear everybody's pros and cons and things they want to do.

And we can't always make everybody happy, but we try to make it a compromise and let everybody have their voice, which I think is important for forever.

I think everybody should do that.

So I felt like that's a good thing for us to do consistently.

And

we don't have consistent family meetings, set days, but I feel like we would do a great job of doing it when frequently enough, if you will.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What?

What do you, this is a question from the people, which I love so much.

Okay.

When do you get the most annoyed with me nowadays?

And how do you handle it?

Okay, so I would say.

He's like, how much time you got?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Is this episode eight or nine?

I would say it's definitely the scheduling.

For instance, so for the readers out there, we have, or viewers, we have a calendar.

What we like, what we usually do is we...

look at our travel days and we back out from there and we create a 15 day to 15 day pretty you know, pretty evenly matte.

Okay, you have the kids here, I have the kids here.

So typically we agree.

Sometimes I'll take a picture, but we have this set calendar, sometimes for a few months in advance.

A couple of weeks goes by and I'll get a text from you, let's say on a Sunday night, asking me when the kids are coming over.

And I say,

they're coming over tomorrow.

And you said, no, they're not.

They're coming over tonight.

And so I look at the calendar and I'm totally right.

Yes.

The fact that you change it or maybe you just don't actually write it down is the part that causes some

heartburn.

If it makes you feel better, Craig, she does that for work.

I'm at the meeting.

The meeting is not today.

You guys, I just, I was watching, I was listening to Craig going, oh my God, my sister's going to jump in here.

And

I'm not even going to say anything.

I have no excuse for that.

I am 45 years old and I need to do better.

And I can't promise to try, but I'm going to try to try.

I think one of the most important things to me with our co-parenting is that we do have structures that work and then we have enough kindness to break that structure.

Like I'll never forget when COVID started and I, my anxiety in the very beginning was like through the freaking roof.

And you were supposed to have the kids and I called you or texted you or something.

And I was like, I can't, they can't, I can't, they can't leave the house.

Like, I, I, I have, I have to keep them.

Like, I cannot let them out of the house.

And you were like, okay.

Okay.

Like there was no,

it was just this such grace and tenderness.

There was no like, but that's not the schedule.

That is, it was like you understood.

It was just a deep

kindness.

So it's like, sorry, go ahead.

I was going to say, I think I appreciate that, that you were aware of that.

I think it's, you know, I want what's best for all of us because if you're in a,

if you're in a bad place, right?

If

you, if I didn't, if I put a stand and said the kids are going to stay with me, then you're, I don't know.

I feel like we have to do this family thing together.

You know, we have to all be at a healthy place, all of us, in order for this like whole operation to work.

So I'm just as motivated for you to be, to go through things, things, this COVID, this uncertain time.

If you need the kids, fine, let's do this.

Right.

I'm not at all.

I was never, I feel like that was, let's,

you know, you should have the kids.

You should have the kids as much as you want in order for this to get through this time.

Or it doesn't have to be just COVID.

It can be anything, you know?

Yeah.

It's like, I remember when we were first.

starting this co-parenting journey and it was like, okay, if you're not married, what does this look like?

And I read this book about forests and trees and how

even when the trees are separate from each other in a forest, that the roots underneath are all connected.

And so if one tree is unhealthy in the forest, then that makes the next tree unhealthy because their roots are all still intermingled.

And that's how I feel.

about us.

It's like, I truly believe when someone asks me, like, what's the main thing?

Like, what's how do you guys co-parent well?

I think it's because you

are so committed to your own

growth and peace and

work.

And I,

separate from me and Abby, and I am so committed to my own growth and peace and work.

And Abby is separately committed to her growth.

And so we are all trying to be, to work on our own shit constantly.

So that when we come to each other, we're actually trying to be the best versions of ourselves.

Like you are always, you know, you're reading, you're listening to podcasts, you're thinking, you're meditating, you're yogaing, you're therapying.

Like as a man, I find that unusual.

Like what,

and your ability to be vulnerable and talk about your feelings, especially since you're saying that's not how you grew up.

Like,

what is it like being a man who's so committed to self-growth and self-care?

and being vulnerable.

And do you find it hard to find other men who are doing that?

Like what, it feels like it would be a lonely place because women do that a lot and talk to each other about it a lot.

So what is it like to be a man

who's trying to live that way?

Yeah, I feel like I didn't grow up like that.

So I feel like I've had to learn to do all the things that you mentioned, you know, affirmations, journaling on top of all that, right?

Self, self-care that I've never, I never knew was a thing.

So through the years,

working on myself and you, it's an interesting part, you actually meet people along the way who are doing the same thing.

So I think that's kind of where I find my deepest connection with other men are people that are going through that.

But yes, it is hard because I could be out with a group of guys and you could bring something up that might be a little bit vulnerable and the conversation doesn't go anywhere.

And to no, to no fault of that person, they just were like I was years ago.

It just, it's like the capacity, it's just not there.

They haven't, they haven't, you know, gotten in touch with themselves enough to know how to pull that out from the inside.

So, yeah,

I do have a couple close friends that I can have these conversations that aren't on the surface, like growing up.

It's a couple layers below where you're getting into some really deep, tough things that you both have in common because you've gone through it.

Or if you haven't,

we can talk about it openly without judgment or fear or any of that.

So, but it is only lonely and i've i have some of my closest friends are therapists too so it's interesting well that's a good strategy

absolutely yeah

um

that's so well i just feel so i think that's one of the things i'm most deeply grateful for in you

um

that you know our kids get to see this holy human

vulnerable model for

for manhood.

I mean, Chase gets to see that, that, but so do the girls.

I mean, they're going to know that that's possible.

I don't know.

It's just one of my most, the things I admire about you the most.

I feel like your story is so incredibly helpful to so many people because they can see another way.

Like they can see a way that isn't modeled for us, that we don't see out in the world of how to be.

And also it's a unique story.

And there are many people who, where one of the people

is you,

Glennon, or you, Craig, and the person on the other side of the story is not you or Craig.

And so the strategies of showing up openhearted, showing up with kindness

are actually not even safe to do in those situations.

So

I just.

I just want to be careful that we're not painting with a broad brush that this is possible for everyone or that this is a way that you must just be doing it wrong.

Because if you were kinder,

your

co-parent relationship would be better.

I just,

I mean, what would you say if you actually couldn't trust the intentions behind what the other person was doing or whether the other person's decisions were driven by their ego or

whether you knew they weren't being taken care of at the other house the way they should be?

Like, how how does that work?

I don't know.

I mean, I have a friend who's trying to co-parent with a complete and total actual narcissist.

You know, it's like all of your goals have to change.

At that point, you're just trying to show your children one way, one option that is sanity, right?

You're just trying to keep your side of the street clean.

You're switching the goal, right?

Like the goal does not, is no longer, you know fixing the other parent or or winning or even proving that they're insane like whatever it is the goal just becomes modeling for your child how to deal with this person in their life forever

because that is what that child will probably have to do well the child will have to figure out how to do what the mother is trying to do which is how do i survive my life with any kind of peace and freedom and boundaries with this person in it because they will be in it forever?

So, that becomes then not what Craig and I are doing, but just a different approach, which is just wisely and shrewdly figuring out how to maintain sanity and joy on your side of the street.

It becomes: I am now trying to show my child how to survive this with some dignity and with some boundaries and with some hope.

And also, just the act of

constantly reminding yourself that that's why you got out

and that

your act, you might not be able to make things perfect, but what you did was that you broke the cycle of showing your children what love is and what love is not.

That just the act of leaving and maintaining the boundary is offering your child hope.

So, Craig, let's get

a lot of the what people want to know from you.

And I'm dying to hear you talk about this.

How in the hell

does it feel to have been married to and to now be divorced from but co-parenting with a writer who writes all the things about herself and the family and, you know, who wrote about our marriage and love warrior and our divorce and untamed.

What is that like?

And what are the hard parts and good parts?

And how have you

i don't know embraced all of that or or have you

survived

i feel yeah that's a good that's a good part sister um i feel like it ebbs and flows right i feel like love warrior obviously that at that at that point when we were together that was going to be our story so having the revealing parts in the book it was like okay you're going to have my back And then when you met Abby, things changed, right?

And,

you know, at that point, the book and everything is kind of already in

motion, if you will.

And I just,

you know, I felt like that was a lot of your, that was years of work, right?

And I feel like, okay, well, at least it's going to help people.

I'm, you know, it's, it's, it is our story still.

We're still going to try to do this, even as a, you know, extended family unit.

So, but it was hard.

The Love Warrior part was obviously the, the hardest part.

Um, and I feel like there's, there's times when,

you know, that story just keeps surfacing, you know, keeps popping up.

And I just wish it would just kind of,

can that be like, I thought news cycles kind of came and went.

It's like, here it is again.

Here it is again.

Yep.

This keeps like bubbles up again.

But it's part of, it's part of your story.

So, you know, when that comes up, it's like a little ding, you know, it's like a little jab.

Oh, here we go again.

But I feel like.

over time, it gets easier, you know, and there's some good parts to it.

There's, you know, I've, I've met, you know, plenty of friends through your writing.

It's so interesting.

Like people, and I, it's so interesting.

I'll be out in random cities and people will come up and ask me if I'm the Glenn and Craig and just say that, and just compliment you and our family.

And so there's like, it's, it's reaching a lot of people in many, I think, many more positive ways than I think we can imagine.

So, um,

but yeah, but I feel like overall, it's good.

There's this moments where I'm like, oh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, I feel it.

Yes, I do.

Yes, I do.

I'm the one who does it to us.

And I still do have those moments myself.

Also,

okay.

So now I'm excited to talk about this one thing because I would say, Craig, just so you know, I asked for questions for you, and I think we got like 5,000 questions.

Like people were so excited that you were finally going to talk to us.

And maybe out of the 5,000 questions, 4,800 were about whether you're single and dating.

I can't imagine why.

But I'm, can you talk to us just what is it like to date after 40?

What is it like to date as a single

man raising children?

Just talk to us about

that.

I

feel like it's very difficult to go from being with someone for 14 years and then jumping into the dating pool.

It's everything, there's apps, there's everything is online.

I feel like in this town, it's also very difficult.

It's a, you know, it's a conservative town and there's different views that to me now, knowing what I want

in my next relationship are deal breakers.

And so I have found myself the last few years dating

women that are out of town.

It's interesting.

Just because the views line up, right?

So yeah, dating, I try to, I've almost, in this town, I told myself I'm just going to give up.

I'm just going to wait, you know, wait for a while.

But

it is, it's hard.

It's hard.

And there's some challenges with, obviously,

you know, the holidays, that's always a challenge, right?

How do you navigate that?

How do you,

what do you do in that situation when we're so accustomed to doing the holidays the way we've done it?

So that present that presents a challenge too.

And if that person has a child or a family, then

you know, how do you, how do you divvy that up?

So, and that's something that

yeah.

What are you looking for in a partner?

So

I look for somebody who's just goal-driven, like ambitious, who is smart,

fun,

doesn't take themselves so serious, you know, and just someone who's kind of goofy, just someone who enjoys life, enjoys just

spontaneous fun, right?

Likes to travel.

So, but I like somebody who's motivated and driven.

That's kind of one of those things that's like a real,

like, you got to have that.

So,

so interesting.

I'm almost feeling like we should have like a, we can do hard things, the bachelor, and we should collect a bunch of eligible bachelorettes.

Okay.

What

would you do?

This is an interesting question.

Somebody asked on Instagram.

What would you do if a new partner didn't like our parenting setup?

Like, what,

I mean, do you think it narrows the pool to have

to be like, oh, but real quick, like,

glad you like me.

Now here's three children.

Here's Glennon and Abby.

Here's like what

they would have.

Oh, yeah.

They, that's all part of the equation.

I mean, it's not like every, there's things that would have to change a little bit, right?

If that person, if we decided to get married and have kids, eventually that things shift.

But if they come in with an agenda and saying, oh, it's not going to be like that.

I mean, I'm going to find that out right away, at least in the first, you know, few conversations.

Like, this is how our family has, you know, we're together.

We're extended, but we're, we do things together.

So that's part, that's part of the conversation for sure.

They'd have to be on board.

How do you know?

This is something we've tried to navigate over and over again.

How do you know when to introduce the kids?

That's also something that I think just depends on the situation, right?

I feel like our kids,

you know, when I first started dating, the kids were a little younger and I was more sensitive to that.

You know, so I, I think the therapist said six months, you know, six months of dating somebody, so, you know,

so, but now that they're older, I feel less

not sensitive to it, but I feel like it just depends on the situation.

Um, but it's really, I think it's age appropriate for sure.

Yeah.

You know, it's a hard one, though.

It's a very hard one to know when and

how serious.

Like, how do you know?

Okay, at some point, and I remember you saying to me, Well, I have to introduce them to make sure that everybody like melts well you know like melts together well but also i can't introduce them until i know it's so serious that they're not going to leave so that the kids don't get attached and then i so it's like this impossible dance of when's the exact right time and there really isn't right right well it's not right away that's that's for sure i think it just getting to know the person you know and understanding this you know what they want and eventually over time yeah but i definitely don't think it's right away i think we were on the same page about that

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All right.

So we're going to do rapid fire, Craig.

Are you ready for these?

All right.

Okay.

What is your job?

What do you do for work?

Software sales.

Yes.

Or as Chase told someone on the playground when he was four, my daddy sells soft silverware.

Soft silverware.

I love it.

Favorite movie?

Interstellar.

Celebrity Crush.

Probably Allison Williams.

Who is that?

She is in Get Out.

She's the actress in Get Out, and she's in Girl.

She's in Girls.

Oh, I like her.

I mean, she was horrific and girl.

I know.

That was just her character.

Okay.

Okay.

Allison Williams, if you're out there, we need you to apply for We Can Do Hard Things Bachelor.

Okay.

What's the best piece of advice you ever got?

Probably whatever you do, do it with passion.

Give it all.

Just doesn't matter what you do.

Just own it.

Yeah.

That's good.

You do do that.

Who's your hero?

Michael Jordan.

Really?

Same with Abby.

I thought you were going to say that Christian Pelisic guy because I feel like you're always.

Oh, I love him too.

But growing up, Michael Jordan has a piece of my heart because I had posters and just his work, his work ethic speaks to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

What is your favorite thing about Glenn and the worst thing about Glenn?

Favorite thing is you're just...

happy and cheery.

Like you just bring an energy to the room that's infectious.

So you always have that.

The worst thing, I I mean,

I would say that maybe the scheduling.

Damn it.

I'm seriously going to work on that.

Okay.

What is your favorite thing about Abby?

Ah, she's just so fun.

She's, she is

just always looking for ideas and she's an amazing helper.

She's always helping no matter what.

Love that.

True.

What is your favorite music or song?

Oh,

Either Dream On by Aerosmith or

right or Aerosmith, anything by Journey.

I'm old school.

Oh, very good.

Love it.

Love it.

Love it.

Okay.

Are you team open cabinets or team closed cabinets?

I'm team closed.

Yeah, as if I didn't know the answer to that one.

Yep.

Yes.

Yes, yes, yes.

Okay.

And also, Craig, what are your hopes and dreams for our children as they become adults?

I want them to

take

risks, like healthy risks.

There's things that I wish I would have done, like move to New York after college, right?

Things like that that I wish I would have done.

So I want them to experience life.

I want them to travel and I want them to be emotionally and physically healthy.

That's good.

That's so funny.

This is why you need balance in parenting.

Cause I'm like, what I want for them is that they don't take risks and that I want them to not travel.

I want them to just

fail to launch.

Yeah.

Right.

Okay.

All right.

That's beautiful.

Okay, Craig, do you mind if we take a few questions from our pod squad and see if we can

give them some good advice or help?

Okay, let's hear from Jen.

Hi, Lennon.

This is Jen.

So my question is about divorce.

I'm in the early stages of a year-long separation that began during the pandemic.

And when I take my children to therapy, their number one thing that's stressful for them isn't the pandemic, it's the divorce.

I have tremendous guilt over the fact that I'm adding an extra amount of weight to their world

because of the timing.

because of what's going on.

And I guess my question is, how do you move through that guilt?

It is

paralyzing.

So that's my question.

Thank you so much for being here.

And thanks for answering.

Jen,

yes, Craig and I have both felt the crushing weight of that guilt.

I mean, I guess I would say this.

I'll tell you, Jen, there's this moment that I have every week

where

I walk by my foyer, the front foyer of my house, and all the kids' bags

are lined up in the foyer

to go back to Craig's house.

And they're these cheery, like

what are the, what is it called?

Embroidered bags.

Like I had, this is, this is not, I'm not this kind of mom that has like things labeled, but I, but I thought if I get them cheery overnight bags, divorce won't be so bad.

Like if their bags are green and pink and say Tish on them, then divorce will seem happy.

So

those are the bags that they have lined up in the foyer.

And every time I see them and their little shoes are all lined up, and I look at them and I just have this pang of pain.

And it's just this idea that like kids shouldn't

in my mind, that kids shouldn't have to have two houses, that kids shouldn't have to pack up from their own house and leave every week, that kids shouldn't have.

I have this pang of guilt.

guilt also every time, Craig.

I don't know if you, if this gets you, but when the kids call and say,

Am I coming to your house or am I going to daddy's house?

And I always think, what is it like to not know what your house is?

To not have a home?

Like they don't call home.

They say daddy's house or mommy's house.

What is their home?

Like there's just these moments.

And then I think, you know what?

staying married to each other and modeling to our kids a kind of love that isn't the kind of love we want for them in their married relationship if they have one

that would have been a really hard thing to choose to either one would have been hard right and sometimes life is just choosing the right hard so what i have

What I remind myself when I walk by that foyer and I have that pang of pain is that things can be hard and heavy and still be right.

Just because it feels hard and heavy doesn't mean it was the wrong decision and you should have done something different.

Right.

So

that paral, that paralyzing moment that you're talking about, all I can tell you is that I just, that's the mantra.

It can be hard and still be right that Craig and I chose the right hard

for our family.

Craig, do you have any thoughts for for Jen?

No, I mean,

you're exactly right.

When they say that, I feel like what,

you know, what am I doing to help this situation?

And the guilt is

the most powerful thing about that.

No, I think what you said is absolutely right.

I don't have anything healthy to add.

I just think that

it's just super hard.

It's just super hard.

Yeah,

we can do hard things.

Well, I just want to say before we stop here

that

I am so deeply grateful.

When I think about the ways that I got lucky in my life or the things that I'm most grateful for, you and who you are as a human being and the way that we have walked through our relationship and continue to is one of the things I am most grateful for in my entire life.

And,

you know, so much that is so beautiful about our children, you know, Chase's deep kindness.

You know,

wait, let me just tell you this real quick, Craig.

The other day, Chase and his best friend were over at our house, you know, Kat.

And

I think we were going around the table saying nice things about Chase because it must have been a special day for him or something.

And

Kat looked over at him, precious Kat, who's like a daughter to us.

She looked at Kat, she looked at Chase and she said, Chase, my favorite thing about you is how deeply and wonderfully kind you are.

are.

You got that from your dad.

That's what she said.

Oh my God.

And I kind of looked around like expecting everyone to have the shocked, you know, appalled reaction I was having inside, and no one did.

Everyone at the table just was nodding along.

Yes, that is correct.

He is kind and he did get that from his dad.

But Amma's awe, you know, Amma's awe and her wonder at the world and her playfulness

and Tish's just commitment to everything she does,

the passion she puts into everything that she does.

It's just, you know, so much of what is beautiful about them is from you.

And I'm

grateful that you have committed to doing hard things with me and sticking it out even when it gets hard, especially then.

And I just love you.

I love you too.

And thank you so much for having me on.

This has been really, really great.

So fun.

Okay.

and

you can direct your requests for dates to our voicemail

and um

god bless all of you trying to do the hard messy work of of blended fixed families um we can do hard things

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Next right thing for this week.

Okay,

how about this?

What if you let the picture in your head about what a family is supposed to look like burn?

What if you just forgot,

intentionally forgot about the idea that our families are supposed to be some one size fits all carbon copies of each other and begun to define family

yourself

what is the crew with whom you are held and free

is it biological

is it chosen is it tiny is it medium is it huge is it human is it canine is it feline

Is it different than what the world told you your family should be?

What if that's okay?

What if that's just perfect, actually?

What if you replaced the idea of what your family should be

with just what your family is?

And what if that's beautiful?

When things get hard this week, don't you forget, we can do hard things.

Love you.

Our theme song, We Can Do Hard Things by Tish Melton, is available now for streaming and download on iTunes, Spotify, Amazon Music, Pandora, and YouTube.

And now I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle.

I walked through fire, I came out the other side.

I chased desire, I made sure I got what's mine

And I continue to believe

that I'm the one for me

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on map A final destination

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been

And to be loved, we need to be known

We'll finally find our way back home home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a hard pain.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem.

Sometimes things fall apart.

And I continue to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took some time,

but I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that

A final destination

we lack

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been

And to be loved we need to belong

We'll finally find our way back home home.

And through the joy and pain that our lives

bring,

we can do a heart again.

We're adventurous and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay.

We've stopped asking directions

in some places

they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do hard

things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do hard

things.

We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.

Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it.

If you didn't, don't worry about it.

It's fine.