7. FIGHTING WELL: Is your conflict style making or breaking your relationships?

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Hi, everybody.

Glennon here.

Thank you so much for joining me again for We Can Do Hard Things.

I'm thrilled to tell you that today's episode is about fighting.

What I mean by that is this.

I think that every lover is a fighter.

Because

when we're trying to love each other well, what we're really trying to do is

know each other deeply, right?

What we really want is to be known deeply and to deeply know.

the other

and to know each other deeply

there always has to be some stretching, some extra trying,

some conflict, right?

So today we're talking about conflict with,

obviously, sister and also with Abby.

Abby is the person I love the most, so also the person I fight with the most.

And what we learned during COVID was that really most of our conflicts are the same five fights over and over and over, and that they always have to do with once again

love

and control

so let's jump right in to five fights

well hello everybody i am here with my two favorite people my sister amanda and my wife abby Say hello.

Hello, Glennon.

Thank you for being excited to be here.

Hello.

And the reason the three of us are here today is because we wanted to speak about something hard,

which is this.

This is a hard thing in the center of Abby and I's relationship, which

let's just say that, babe, our relationship has been discussed in many beautiful ways and people rightly.

assume and know that we have a beautiful love story, right?

So gorgeous.

Yes, yes.

And we are deeply in love with each other.

And

we also drive each other bat shit crazy sometimes.

Would you agree with that?

That is also very true.

Yes.

We're human beings.

Yes.

Yes.

And one of the things.

Right.

And one of the things that we noticed during COVID, this time, where we had, oh, so much

togetherness.

Oh, so much family time.

which

taught us that an interesting thing was that it felt a little bit like our days and our arguments were like groundhog day.

Like we were having the same freaking fights over

and over and over again.

Did you feel that that was true?

Yes.

And,

you know, you just never kept learning the lesson that I was hoping you were going to learn.

And babe, vice versa.

Vice versa.

I know you can't steal my joke, though.

Come on.

No, it's good.

Really good.

So

we actually started talking to a couple other couples, and they also felt like they were having the same fights over and over again.

So we thought maybe this is a universal thing that couples have the same fights over and over again.

So today,

the hard thing that we are bringing to you is our five fights, right?

The fights that we have again and again.

So buckle up, folks.

You're going to find

that there are Team Abby fans and Team Glennon fans.

And I just want to say that one are you?

I just want to say right off the bat that I don't want people to think that I am not aware that most people are on your side.

I understand it.

I understand that you're more lovable, but I truly, I, um, you are my favorite kind of person, babe.

But as it goes, I am who I am.

And so these are the fights that we get into.

What are they?

Tell me, tell me which ones you're bringing to the table.

Okay, I'm going to tell you the five I'm bringing.

Okay.

And just as a disclaimer, we discussed this last night.

Okay.

Well,

so, so as to not actually get into a fight to do it.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And you agreed that these are ours.

And there was really no surprise because it's obvious.

Number one is food, all things around food.

Okay.

Number two has to do with talking.

We will get into that.

Okay.

Number three is money.

Number four is absent-mindedness.

Yep.

Okay.

Wild guess about whose absent-mindedness it is.

And then our fifth fight is that we fight about how we're fighting.

Okay.

So there's like the issue and then we start fighting about how we're fighting and then we can't remember what we even started fighting about.

We're not going to be able to talk at long at length about all of these things because there are five things.

So let's try to succinctly, I want to know how you would define our food issue because it there's it's a lot of things.

How would you describe it in a general way?

The way I grew up And my relationship with food is

different

than

the way you grew up and your relationship with food.

And in a lot of ways, we are at odds with each other almost all the time.

I have food scarcity issues.

I used to overeat.

I actually don't anymore.

I need to stop saying it like that.

You have restriction issues from your

whole world of food.

And so I think that because of that, we both were probably at the beginning super attracted to this thing.

Like, oh, she has this freedom with food.

And the more that you got to know me, you understood that I was under the same kind of, in the same cage that you were in, just in the opposite way.

So we'll be ordering food and I over order.

And

that's triggering for you and

some of your food stuff that you've dealt with throughout your life.

And so this is a kind of a, has been.

I actually think that we, Adam Grant kind of helped us recently with this.

Well, that's because he was on your side.

So I know.

Don't you feel like it's a little bit better?

Well, his point was, okay, we, we described the situation where Abby will walk into our house and we're, we ordered pizza, right?

We're going to order pizza.

And there will be four of us or five of us and Abby will walk in with five pizzas.

Right.

Do you feel like that's maybe that's a little bit of an exaggeration?

Maybe it's four pizzas for five people or something.

Okay.

This is extremely triggering to me because number one, I was raised never to waste anything.

Wasting was like sacrilegious.

Right.

And then two,

because I have had such issues with restriction growing up and my whole life, it scares me to have that much food around is the only way that I could explain it.

It makes me, it freaks me out.

Right.

But it makes Abby feel safe to have more food, right?

To have enough, to make, she'd rather throw it away and

have felt like there was enough to feel safe.

And Adam said, well, isn't it great that Abby can have safety and all it costs you guys is like a few extra bucks.

Isn't that lovely?

And so,

yeah, go ahead, sister.

Do you well, relevant, I think extremely relevant here is the fact that Abby was the youngest of seven children growing up.

So in order to understand the scarcity issues and the being

left with the leftovers that were not enough for her, I just think it's important.

That part of the equation feels important.

Yes.

Yeah.

And also

we can disregard Adam Grant's theory here

for just a second.

I think it's a good theory, but I also think,

you know,

I, we have kind of come to terms with like some of these fights, like who it matters more to, right?

And because you have dealt with much worse circumstantial stuff around food, that 70%,

80% of the time, I defer to making sure that you feel safe and comfortable.

But quite frankly, the way we've landed is if we ever order pizzas, I just, and I over order.

Sometimes lately, you've been ordering, which has been wonderful.

I do have some anxiety, but when I do order and I order an extra pizza, I just promise you that we'll eat it for leftovers.

That does help.

That helps me.

But there's another food issue

that

we have decided matters more to you and that I just have to arrange myself.

And that is your complete and utter refusal to share.

Yeah, that's the, that, that, that's not,

that's like a, I'm calling marriage on that.

Right.

So like if you get a milkshake,

right?

And I, and I

don't

choose not to and you don't get one but like i really just want a sip of a milkshake no no

then get your your damn your own damn milkshake you can do that you have every moment and i give you the option i sometimes order two just to be safe that i get everything in my milkshake cup Yeah, I hear you.

I mean, I understand that the world is divided on this and that there are

division.

No.

no, there is, there is the right way.

That's how I operate in this way.

And then there is your way, which is completely wrong.

Right.

Yeah.

Okay.

So that's helpful.

So, sister, could you weigh in here?

What do you think is correct here?

Because I just think that, first of all,

truthfully, I mean, what's underneath all of this?

Because one of the things we've figured out is with our fights, there's always something that's really deeper underneath.

So this is really not about milkshakes and whatever.

This is, this is

the idea that because I'm a person with recovery, with eating disorder issues, I just want a taste of something, but I don't allow myself to have a whole thing, right?

It goes back to the restriction stuff.

So that is an experience with food that feels safe to me, that I can have a sip and taste it, but I can't allow myself the whole thing.

And I actually don't even want the whole thing.

So, but then I also understand just just wanting to keep your own damn milkshake.

What do you think, sister?

How does this, who's, which one of us are you in the relation, in your relationship?

It's funny because I, I, I

have, I'm more you from the standpoint, obviously, of the way we grew up and, and, um,

what I,

is my core

kind of negative self-dialogue that that manifests this way.

But I think that it's interesting to think of it from a safety perspective for both of you because you don't feel safe with that much food in your house because you know you know all the days of binging of it it's like an invitation to relapse um

but it makes sense that abby doesn't feel safe knowing that there isn't that you won't cross a boundary and take her stuff.

Like she doesn't, she doesn't have the safety of boundary around her food.

Probably like she didn't for, you know, if there was one thing of ice cream in her freezer and she had six siblings who she never knew if it was going to be there when she wanted to have it.

So that's a lack of like safety too.

I do think food is so.

I just think a lot of these things break down into this key thing of like you're two, you actually are

two separate people.

Unfortunately, I I hate to be the one to announce it to you on a podcast.

Are you sure?

Do you feel that that's right, Dave?

I feel like I'm 100% sure.

Okay, you're asking your wife.

I just want to be the same.

I want to be a mesh.

I know.

We need an actual therapist on here.

But you are.

So I just feel like,

I don't know.

I feel like the food in the house is a harder one.

But I also think it could even be something

like you just have to have a boundary around her food that she orders.

Like you cannot cross that.

That feels like since you know that about her.

I know.

And I think that we have done that.

And what I,

what I think is interesting and what I think we'll find out about all of these five fights is it's just fascinating that Abby's ability to be free and indulge is for sure one of the things that I found most attractive about her.

And I think one of the things she found most attractive about me was my ability to be disciplined.

Right.

And so it's like the thing that you want from each other is always the thing

that you end up

resenting about, resenting, right?

But it's also beautiful.

It's beautiful.

Like what she has taught me to have joy and freedom and

for food to be a celebratory experience too.

So it's just the Venn diagram of where that like overlaps.

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Our next one is talking.

This one is endlessly fascinating to me, okay?

Oh gosh, yes.

Because

This issue of talking is about oversharing.

Okay.

And I feel like people listening would probably think that since I'm the writer, since I'm the memoirist, that it would be that I'm the oversharer.

And that is the opposite of our situation.

Right.

One of our most frequent arguments is that Abby has said something or shared something

that makes me,

how would you describe it, babe?

Yeah.

So I, like I said,

not that this is an excuse, it's just evidence that I grew up in this big family.

I actually just recently went back and saw them for the first time since COVID started.

And I was in the room and I remember having this thought that I was so grateful that Glenn and you weren't with me for like the first time because it was so loud and it was so intense.

And there was.

15 people in this room and they were all talking at the exact same time and nobody was listening and nothing was getting heard and nothing was really getting said.

And like, this was the ant, like anti-communication.

And what ended up happening was I started to overshare something.

And

I came home and I told you about this experience and you were upset with me that I shared this information.

And what I realized is being from a big family where nothing is really said,

like the more gossipy or the more you can share with people gets a little bit more traction.

So there's more attention that's put on you.

And

being in a big loud space is like almost a trigger for me.

So

long story short,

I'm a loud talker, which is annoying.

I understand.

I'm an interrupter, which is very annoying.

I now understand.

And this oversharing bit has complicated your trust in me to be able to share stuff with me, knowing that I won't share it with the freaking postal worker outside.

Like I see somebody, I'm like, oh, I can't wait to talk to them.

And I am an extrovert, but there's a part of me, this like immaturity inside of me that I do want to work on

that.

can't be can't wait to be the one to share it if that makes any sense so is it the substance is it like

because i didn't know this about you two is it, is it, there's something that you, Glennon, would have thought was just between you two, and Abby shares it with someone else?

It can be something that's just between us.

It could be something that I consider to be gossipy and not our business.

And something that, and I feel like, since Abby is who she is, when she talks, people listen to her.

And like, it, I,

it, it's like the food thing.

I am super care, disciplined

about the things that I say in a way that I feel and I think through how it's going to make them feel and them feel and them feel and them feel to the point where

on a spectrum where that's the either.

Exactly.

It could be considered almost like

manipulative, I think, or like overly controlling or

Abby calls it exhausting.

witchy like i'm always saying

yeah but but then on the other spectrum is just saying whatever, whenever, and not thinking about how it's that person's going to feel or that person's going to feel or the repercussions.

Well, I have a question about that then.

Is it related to the substance of the information?

As in, you feel that the dispersal of that information could have a damaging effect on someone?

Yes.

Or is it?

It is, it is that, as opposed to the fact that Abby shared that reflects negatively on me

because I'm not a person who would share that.

It's because it's going to come back to somebody and hurt someone, especially somebody in our immediate family.

Like, watch out.

Like, if I've said something that exposes our children or Glennon in any way or you, sister, she hasn't, she has a complete allergic reaction to that.

Rightfully so.

I'm not defending myself here.

And that's when I'm like, oh yeah, I've gone and done it again.

Like, there we go.

So it's interesting.

It's, it's like

the idea of sorry.

I think when you're in a big family, you speak to exist.

Abby has said to me many times, I feel like if I don't talk, I don't exist.

Right.

So it's like getting a word in edge-wise, and that's where the interrupting comes in.

Or, and, and, and I, and we had issues in the beginning of our relationship, which, you know, one of the reasons I felt so madly in love with you is the way you are with people and in a room, and your presence is so huge, and your being is so huge.

And I am much more in a social situation, I am much more quiet and much more introverted.

Right.

So we used to have issues where we would go somewhere and we'd come home, and Abby would be like, Wasn't that amazing?

And I would be like, But you didn't notice that I didn't say one word the whole time we were there.

Yeah.

You didn't even notice I didn't speak a word.

I didn't, that's not the life that I lived before I met you.

People were just ingratiated in, is that a word?

Yes.

Yeah, they were ingratiated in what I was saying.

And the selfish Abby, the former pro-athlete Abby, when I was in it, like people,

it's

embarrassing to think about those early days.

And, you know, I remember feeling like, oh, she's trying to change me.

You know, like, she's trying to change my personality.

But the truth is,

especially something like this, that's so important, being heard and listening,

finding some semblance of a middle, because, you know, I didn't want to make you feel like you were completely disappeared in a room next to me.

Like, I wanted you to have your own space and take up your own space.

Yeah.

And I think that's just, I've talked to so many friends who have that dynamic.

There's like one big personality, and there's one maybe that is a little bit quieter.

And so it's that both people want to be seen and and and so it's sometimes falls a little bit more on the bigger personality to leave deliberate and intentional space for the other person who isn't gonna just jump in yep that's hard for me i would remember i would have to like she sister she goes like sometimes when we're sitting i will see her because she does it like when we're sitting with the kids and she's trying to actively let them talk and not interrupt.

She holds her lips together like a duck.

She literally closes her lips like this.

You have to do it.

Otherwise,

but that could also go to an extreme, right?

I mean, both with the food and the

talking.

If

you know, you also don't want this dynamic to be such that Abby is,

am I doing it right?

Am I allowed to, am I being policed in this space?

Am I talking too much so that you're not at ease?

Because then

you can try to please someone to death and not be at ease in yourself.

And that's awful.

Yeah.

The good news about that, and I think we got to go on to the money, but the good news about that, sister, is that these two specific topics are topics I really want to be more mature and understand more.

So though it might look like on the surface that like, oh, Glennon has a little bit of a

need for more control in certain circumstances, like in these areas, these are some of the things that I feel the most embarrassment and shame are on my own personality.

Maybe not shame, but just I feel embarrassed when I'm interrupting people.

And I feel like this immaturity rises in me that I need to say something.

Otherwise, like, I want to work on those things.

Right.

And it, of course, I would end up choosing a partner like Lennon who could help me work through that stuff.

And same.

I mean, I feel embarrassed about my hyper-vigilance in every room, right?

Like, is that person getting like, I love about you that you are free

and open and not,

you know, they call people high self-monitors or low self-monitors.

So a high self-monitor is someone who's constantly like worried about how this just,

you know, sometimes changing, but, but always monitoring how they speak, what they speak, what.

And I think that is anxiety producing for other people too.

I think one of the reasons people love you so much is that you are just yourself all the time.

And so it's like all of these things are things that we both are mirroring for each other that we're both working on, right?

And neither one of us is like, do it my way.

Like, I don't, the last thing I want is for Abby to be me, Jesus.

No.

And we've had to work through,

we've had to work through like

dealing with that instant

denial or argumentative or just dismissal.

Like, no, like, cause of course I make fun of the fact that, like, no, I don't want you to touch any of my milkshake.

And I actually truly deeply don't want you to.

But if you did,

if you did, like, it wouldn't ruin our life, you know?

Like, we joke much about this,

but it's, you know, we have to understand that

this has been a process and something that we have worked through.

Like, I feel like we've made great progress.

Let's talk about money now, though.

Okay, so money, I don't know.

I do feel like we've gotten a little bit better with money.

I would say that the overall

gist of the money issue is that I'm sure the people who are listening will be shocked to hear that

I

am more anxious and

concerned and conservative about money.

And I have a general feeling of scarcity when it comes to money, right?

And you have a general feeling of abundance and everything will be fine and it will all work out and we can spend money on things.

Like, how would you define our money issues?

I would put it in those terms.

I would

go so far as to say

when we first met,

part of probably what has developed,

part of a reason why you've created the money

thought

around our family is because when I first met you, I was very frivolous with money.

I spent it

too much.

I was going through a horrible time of my life.

And it was like the only thing I could do that wasn't drinking, that made me feel a little bit better.

Yeah.

And I think over the last four years, five years, I've learned quite a bit about myself and the shortcomings of some of this abundance thought because it's just immaturity, right?

So what I've actually been doing over the last couple of years, which has, I think, helped with your anxiety and your scarcity, is I've just totally dove into learning about money and learning about investing and learning about

which has brought more control

and

maturity in the decisions that I make around money.

So, you don't have to be the one in our relationship to protect it.

I know.

Have you noticed that, like, I've been like buying things lately?

You buy more stuff than I buy.

I know, because I used to be so scared to buy anything because I felt like, well, all the, all the wastefulness has to be on that side.

And I have to be so overly controlling and careful so that I don't have to get in fights with her about the spending.

But now it feels like since you are being careful, I'm finding myself having a little bit of like

i don't know gonna buy that shirt it's so it's it's kind of fun and i'm really grateful to you for that thank you very much and i did hear this thing recently that said i also have been trying to live with less fear around money and and taking on a little more of your belief that

I don't know.

I just heard somebody say recently that the reason why we get so nervous in our money stories is because one of us always feels like we're breaking our parents' rules about money.

And my parents, you know, my parents were both very hardworking public school teachers and we always had enough, but we never had extra, right?

And so money was to be

very, very careful with.

And any waste was shameful.

And

so whenever I feel like we're spending, I think I secretly feel like I'm breaking my parents' role.

Interesting.

But but but our parents' rules weren't usually right.

Right.

Right.

One of the, one of the, one of the things that that has happened frequently with us is I used to say, well, we can afford it.

Yeah, that used to drive me.

And that would drive you bonkers.

And I understand, I was listening to this book the other day.

What I have to say to you is based on our financial blueprint and based on our long-term goals, I think this falls in line with us still reaching our goals at the time we want to reach our goals.

So I've just had to find

a new phrase that is true and it rings true.

It just doesn't sound like, oh, I don't want to deal with this conversation right now.

We can afford it and I want to be done with it.

It's like exactly.

It's pointed directly.

Yes.

Because I feel, okay, saving, yay.

Giving, yay.

Spending intentionally, yay.

Wasting, boo.

So I just have to know that it's been thought through and it's a decision and not just like an impulse or something.

Yeah.

I mean, I mean, it's so fascinating to me because I think all of these things they're like about food and taking up space and talking and money, but they're really, when you think about it, they're about

feelings of security,

feelings of trust,

feeling the way you, what you view as an indulgence or not, and whether you're worthy of it, safe around it.

I mean, it's, they're all wrapped up in these core beliefs about like, am I going to be okay?

Yes.

If you do this, is your,

are you worthy of trust?

Is your judgment good enough?

Is it going to be like, am I going to be secure?

Am I going to have what I need?

Is all of my,

you know, if I,

if, and also, what does it mean in the backdrop of my day-to-day life?

Like, Lennon, you work your ass off.

So you're always working.

So it's like, if you are so regimented about all your time is working, and then you see

a purchase that you, you see as frivolous.

Do you receive that as you have no respect for how hard I work?

I do a little bit.

I used to.

I know, but yeah, but he's not even

right.

Like I also work too.

Yes.

And I like, I get to spend my money and you get to spend your money.

Like that's an important thing to say out loud.

100%.

And I'm not saying, I'm not saying that it is, that it is a correct assessment.

I'm saying that does the gut reaction that it immediately comes

to that place

because it's like a deep core.

And the deep, the depth of like some of it being childhood trauma.

I mean, I will never get past the part where I'm, this is where I can't get past, where I'm like, okay,

I know that it doesn't make any sense for me to have a sip of your milkshake, but it's childhood trauma for me.

So even though it doesn't make any sense, can I just please have a sip of your freaking milkshake?

Even though it's not a good, even though it should be a boundary.

And then Adam's on the other side.

Don't come to me with that.

You say, if you said that, honey, to me, every single time I would give you a sip of that damn milkshake, but you don't say that.

You say no things and you go in there secretly into the freaking refrigerator, take a sip.

I know you're, I literally, I'm, I know where you've walked.

I know what you're doing.

You're trying to do it secretly.

Which is also childhood trauma because Glennon and I used to sneak food because we weren't allowed to have it.

So, but what I'm saying is that like it's, you also have to recognize Abby's childhood trauma around never being secure enough to have it.

And there's a third way.

There's always a third way.

It doesn't mean please indulge my trauma or you indulge my trauma.

There is this third way that, Glenn, you really could allow yourself to get the milkshake, have the sip you want and throw the rest of that shit in the trash.

I know.

And that's what I think we're working towards.

Okay.

What I have to, what I will say about that, I am not yet at a place, even though I'm working my ass off and I will someday be there where I trust myself with the whole milkshake.

I don't, I've never taken three sips of milkshake and throw it away.

It brings back all my old binging stuff, whatever.

So I'd rather just pass it up.

But what we come back to is this like immovable object and or impenetrable object and immovable like force.

It's like, whose childhood trauma do we bow to each day?

That's literally all we're trying to figure out, right?

Totally.

Okay, so we actually, you all, we are at 30 minutes.

I don't know, should we save the other?

Oh, you want to not save?

You just want to not get to the one that you suck at?

I see you, Abby.

I see you.

Okay, so we did do talking of money.

Guess we won't get to absent-mindedness.

Okay, so Gordon.

Okay, and then I think what we'll do is we'll save the fifth fight for another time because it's all about how we respond to each other's fights.

I don't know how to describe this one.

I have no, this next one,

I'm calling it my absent-mindedness.

I don't know, babe, how you would describe it, but it's just this thing I've had since I was a kid where I am not paying attention to anything that's going on in the physical world.

And so I'm constantly losing things.

I'm constantly breaking things.

Can you just, can you just try to describe it?

Yeah.

I mean, I think that

you are a unique human being because

the thing that makes you so

unbelievable, a genius, an artist at what you do is your ability to think through really difficult problems and make them sound simple to the rest of us.

And that takes a process and it has its toll.

There's like, there's a cost to it.

And some of those costs are leaving a full cup of coffee inside the washing machine inside of it.

Yeah, nobody knows how that happened.

And I'm sure we can't, it hasn't been proven that it was.

Also,

hold on, let me just get through a few of these also

the um

the fact that you still will not stop using my razor no matter how many times i've asked you to stop using my razor that's so hard and so now i just have to change i have to change her razor heads for her because the thing is she looks down and she sees two razors she literally can't remember which one is hers no matter how many times we she's written my name we've had tutorials we we she's given me mnemonic devices it's okay so you know so you literally can't tell it's not that you're like i see this is abby's and i'm using it you're just like oh damn it i can't remember i'm literally standing in the shower staring at two razors going

shit well i just think that you i do think you figure it out because you always always use mine and why do you always always use mine Because when you're in the shower, you have passive, aggressive shit, Abby.

Yes.

Because when you're in the shower showering and shaving, you don't clean that shit off of the freaking razor.

You don't clean your hair off.

So when you look down to the two razors, you look at the head that looks the cleanest and you choose that one.

That one is always mine.

So I go in there and I look at my razor and it has hair all over it.

And I look at the other one and it has hair all over it.

I'm like, oh, she chose

my clean razor because it was clean.

Who wants to use a dirty razor?

Nobody.

I just want to tell you that I love you so much and I can see that you're giving me too much credit.

That's not a process I would ever go through.

I would never pick something up.

You've seen my toothbrush.

Do you think I've ever picked something up and been like, this is too dirty to use?

Never.

I am disgusting.

You are disgusting.

I would never pick up my razor and say, I would use a razor that didn't work for 20 years.

I would never think this thing doesn't work, so I should change it.

I've actually come, I've actually figured out I have to hide the razor in the shower.

That's smart.

I've been hiding it from you.

And it's not easy because there's like, you know, only three places that could be behind the freaking shampoo bottles.

So, what do you attribute this to?

Because I've always said, you know, this is something that's happened throughout my life.

I run into things.

I mean, this isn't, I have a lot of bruises because I actually run into doors.

I

will be driving and I find myself going somewhere I'm not going.

I am,

I'm living inside.

Our kids call it moms underwater, right?

I am living so much inside my head that I'm not paying attention to the outside world, which so in our family, we say mom can do hard things, but she can't do easy things.

Yeah, I think that you

I think that sometimes what's happening inside of your own head is more interesting than anything.

A lot of people would feel offense to that, but I actually know how smart you are.

So I don't necessarily disagree with you all the time.

I just have had to figure out how to manage around it because during the book writing process or even the creation of this podcast, like you go into a different realm.

Like you have a different realm that

you live in in some ways.

And so that's why you leave stuff in certain places and I find them.

That's why the cabinet drawers can never get shut.

You know, things of

this nature.

When it comes to the children, you don't really forget anything when it comes to them, which is really interesting.

So that's interesting.

So she is selectively prioritizing what she will pay attention to, what she's not.

And so her ability to do that, does that feel disrespectful to you, Abby, because you're like, well, you've chosen to come out of your world for this thing.

You just don't choose to come out of your world to leave my razor alone or to not put gum on the console of my VM.

Look, I decided to marry Glennon and I decided to marry her

after having learned this about her.

And I think that

part of what makes her so special is she actually needs it.

She needs to feel like somebody else is going to like take care of stuff when she has to go into this different world or realm or in her head or whatever.

And there is going to be a cost that I pay.

But that's part of why I was put on this earth.

I think I do.

I think that

there is a unique kind of person that can handle that.

And I was built for it.

So it's going to annoy the hell out of me forever.

I know that also.

But I think over time I'll stop caring as much.

I'll just start.

You'll go dead inside?

Yeah, a little bit.

Well, what you just said, Abby, that you knew this about Glennon before you married her, that it's part of what makes her uniquely her, that she needs it.

I wonder if, Glennon, you could think through

the food, the talking, the money, and try to...

No, through that framework.

Like, you knew this about Abby.

Did you already order your Team Abby shirt and you're just not wearing it today?

I I am not.

I am being totally objective here.

I really am.

Like there are things

that Abby acknowledges and celebrates as part of you that are annoying as hell.

I'm not saying it isn't annoying, the things that are true about Abby.

I'm just saying that it's interesting to think about those things less from the perspective of what Abby just shared about you.

Do you think that,

but I think that I have more of a personality that accepts people

for who they are a little bit more than tries to witchy them and control them a little?

Like, no, and I don't think that that's bad

of you.

That that is 100% true.

Yeah.

That one of the most exceptional things about Abby is her supernatural ability to love people exactly as they are.

and without condition.

I have never seen it before.

I don't believe I'll ever see it again, the way that she has it.

And it is something that I

it is something that I would not want to change about her.

Yes, and it's why we work.

Yes.

Her

willingness to change me.

That's not something you would change about her.

I find acceptable.

And with that, we will break and we will come back with some hard questions.

I love you both so much.

I love you.

Just the way you are.

Don't be mad at me because this was really therapeutic.

It was wonderful.

It was wonderful.

I love you so much.

Love you too.

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Okay,

we are back with questions from various pod squad members for

Glennon and Abby.

And the first one is from

Jacqueline.

Hey, Glennon, I am just finishing up my sophomore year in college.

And I have been in about a four-year relationship with my girlfriend.

We fight sometimes, but I fight more than others.

I'm the one who fights.

And sometimes my fighting can be really unkind.

And anger is just like one of those feelings that I don't know what to do with.

So I guess my question is, how do you and Abby fight?

Because Abby reminds me a lot of my partner.

And what do you do when maybe you're about to say something that you really don't want to say or you know that you're going to explode or one or the other one's going to explode?

I really relate to you, Glennon.

I've read your book and it really changed my life.

I recommend it to all of my friends.

Okay, love you.

Thank you so much.

Okay, so Pod Squad, if you could see Abby right now, what you would see is that that entire time that Jacqueline was talking, Abby had her hands over her mouth and was freaking out.

And babe, I'm going to guess the reason.

Okay.

You'll have to tell me if I'm right.

I'm guessing that you actually think that Jacqueline is me, that like I recorded that question and pretended to be Jacqueline because it sounds like maybe Jacqueline has some anger.

Some similarities.

Some similarities.

So just a few.

Yeah.

I love Jaclyn, by the way.

Jacqueline, I love you.

I am you, first of all.

Second of all.

So, babe, we get to talk about not not only our five fights, but how we fight, because you and I actually fight about how we fight.

Yeah, I mean, right?

For sure is the most lesbian thing ever.

First of all,

Jacqueline, thank you for the question.

I think,

you know, it just feels, I feel warm when I hear other people talk about some issues that we have.

That's for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah,

totally.

So let's talk about conflict first

we've figured out

just recently, actually,

that we have different ideas about conflict in the first place,

that we both have different beliefs about conflict that makes it tricky right now.

Yeah, like what purpose the conflict we get.

Like, what is conflict in general in each of our lives?

Right.

Right.

So we figured out that

I

am very, very conflict.

I'm a fan of conflict.

You're pro.

You're a pro-I'm pro-conflict.

I always feel like what we're trying to do down here is understand each other better and get to the root of things.

And I have always understood conflict to be the vehicle one uses to get to the root of things.

Yeah.

Right.

And I believe that conflict is the end of us as we once knew it.

Right.

I think, I think we just figured out that you think of conflict as constructive and I think of conflict as destructive.

Yes.

Right.

And so

we have considered the fact that maybe this is what we were taught in our families of origin.

Right.

Would I would say that my family of origin was very,

we had a lot of conflict, like high, high intense

ancestors all the time

oh i mean how would you describe it

uh cellular

yes okay great cellular

so abby how would you describe your family's approach to conflict

avoidant

i mean with with when you're living with nine or 11 people in one house one conflict can ruin it for the rest of the bunch.

So it was, it was celebrated to brush conflict under the rug.

And so that's how I learned to deal with it.

And that is actually one of my greatest strengths and also one of my greatest weaknesses because

I am very much a conflict avoider.

Because I don't want to ruffle the, I don't want to, I don't want to ruffle the feathers.

I don't want to mess up the juju of the energy of the family.

And that's so interesting for us because in the beginning of our relationship, we'd get into a conflict and I would feel like, oh, this is good and you would retreat and feel like oh this is bad

right but i have a question about that because if the

it's like peace

peacekeeping versus peace making because glennon you can't you are very very comfortable with external

conflict and vocalizing conflict to resolution.

You are very, very uncomfortable with internal conflict.

So when you have an internal conflict, you

vocalize it, you work it out.

That part feels good to you.

But Abby, when you, when a, when conflict, inevitably there must be some, like when something isn't going right

and you avoid the outward conflict, are you experiencing an inner conflict in them?

Yeah, I definitely experience it.

as uncomfortable on the inside, but I don't necessarily show it on the outside, right?

So like I don't express

the need to be in conflict as much as I'm feeling the need to be in conflict.

So, my body's going through conflict.

I'm actually probably, my body's suffering, and I'm not getting that conflict out.

Um, so what I have learned through being married to Glennon for four years, beautiful four years, and being with you for five, is that Actually saying what's going on in your insides and getting them out is the only way to living a peace, a peace-ish

life.

peace peacefulish peacefulish peaceful i like that can you tell the folks how we fight like what's our number one like

way of operating

okay so when we finally get to the point where we're like okay we can trust conflict right conflict is how we get to know each other better how we show each other our insides um all you know progress three years to get this comfortable with conflict by the way it was a slow slog

Well, to be fair,

just

I mean, I just don't, I want to push against this idea that there's some people comfortable with conflict and some people that aren't.

Abby, the type of conflict you're comfortable with is inner conflict.

The type of conflict Glennon is comfortable with is outward conflict.

She's uncomfortable with inward.

You've gotten to the place where you're comfortable enough with inward.

more comfortable than outward.

So it's just

everyone has some kind of conflict.

Well, it's

yeah, it's the idea of there's a price to pay.

It's it's choosing what price you're going to play, right?

So it's like, but I also do believe that as women, we are trained to

look at a situation, look at a room, be at a table, be in a relationship, and count the cost of saying the thing.

Count the cost of expressing ourselves.

Count the cost of saying what we need.

And that will cause too much drama or chaos or other people's discomfort or whatever.

And so we don't want to pay it.

But what we haven't considered is that there is a price to pay for not saying the thing, for not expressing the thing.

And that price is never being known.

And that price is slowly dying inside.

So

the idea is that there's a price to pay either way, which price.

Well, and I think that the way, yeah, the way that we choose and the way that we have worked through this is that we promise each other not to go after each other's weaknesses.

And knowing that I go straight to shame, there is the price that unfortunately, like a toll that you pay every time that we get into some sort of conflict.

And the toll

is you have to make me feel safe.

Unfortunately, I'm sorry, babe, that you do.

You have to make me feel safe that you will not leave me before we head into any kind of conflict.

And it's annoying.

Like, I bet that that has to be so frustrating for you.

But that unfortunately is the price, the price of entry to this kind of conflict to make me feel like we can do this on even terms, on some level.

Does that make sense?

Yes.

It was like putting safety, like, it's like the, when you go to the bowling alley and you have to put those like, well, I do, you know how the bumpers, when we go bowling, you, you, you get me the bumpers.

You've never been bowling?

Yes.

Remember when we went with the kids and I got the bumpers.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So,

so the bumpers of the, those first conflicts, the first couple of years is we figured out that I would have to say to you, we need to talk about something, but please understand that I'm never going anywhere.

Like, I want to talk about this hard thing,

but please breathe and know that we're going to make it through it.

And know we're just, there's nobody's leaving, right?

Nobody's going anywhere.

And that was, but, but, but, but it's gotten safer lately.

Like we don't necessarily need those bumpers because you know I'm not going anywhere.

Because you've allowed me to jump to my prefrontal cortex.

Like I've been operating in my reptilian brain and you've, you've given me time so that I have the space to go from reptilian brain to the thinking brain and rationalize, oh, she isn't going to leave me.

But before,

early in our relationship, I didn't know that.

So I was like only operating with like these past experiences.

So now I feel comfortable getting into a conflict with you and knowing you aren't going to leave me without you having to necessarily pay that same kind of toll because my brain has rewired itself.

Like, truly, like, that's kind of like it's magic.

Like, your brain is malleable in that way.

Um, what's the price that I have to pay?

Okay.

So, if people have the bumpers, right?

So, we say, Okay, we're going to enter into conflict, but everybody gets their bumpers.

So, you and I have this theory that the second we go into conflict,

that each of us has like this bulletproof jacket.

And we use this phrase, the bulletproof jacket in our family all the time for many different,

well, I'll talk about it many times on this podcast, I'm sure.

But it basically means that when we go into conflict, we feel vulnerable, right?

Because the reason we've got there is probably because we're hurt or we're sad or we're fearful, right?

That's why we've gotten into the conflict.

But hurt, sad, fear, those are very soft, vulnerable emotions.

And so heading into conflict, we all throw on a bulletproof jacket.

Right.

That is some sort of emotion or approach or way of being that makes us feel less vulnerable.

Right.

So mine is always anger and rightness.

Okay.

Anger and rightness.

Yours is shame.

So early in our relationship, what the bulletproof jacket does is it makes it absolutely impossible to even talk about the thing you were talking about before.

Because now you're dealing with each other's representatives.

You're not even talking about the problem.

So, mine would be, it would drive you nuts.

I would turn into a lawyer, like dissecting every single word you said, making you,

making you feel wrong, making you feel

afraid.

I remember you figuring that out a while in and saying, babe, if you want to do this,

you'll always win.

That's great.

You're smart.

You want to have me in that way.

A war of words.

You're better at words than me.

You will win this game every time.

The game.

Right.

Right.

And so that's when I figured out that that was my bulletproof jacket.

And we'll get to why we have these.

Yours was shame.

So, what would you go to every time we got into any kind of conflict?

I would go to rage.

You would go to.

She's a child, shut down, she's leaving.

Right.

And that,

I'm terrible, I'm awful, you're going to leave me.

And that would frustrate me to no end because I become the victim and you have to take care of me.

Yeah.

Right.

So then I don't even get to have my feelings anymore because I'm pulling you out of

the way.

Right.

So, like, you got to give me a little credit.

It is.

And the reason why is it's beautiful because what we figured out is that and i and i want you listening to like really think about this is that we put on our bulletproof jacket in conflict to i think cover whatever is our deepest shame belief about ourselves okay

the reason that i always argue

about

rightness

is because my deepest shame belief because of my childhood and because of how I grew up and because of all of my various diagnoses is I am crazy.

I am over-emotional.

I am too much.

I am illogical.

I am

nobody is going to be able to take me for

long.

So I start listing all the reasons I'm right because I want to prove to you.

That actually it's logical how I feel.

And then what do you think like your shame?

That's That's why the tagline in Untamed is: I'm not, I'm not crazy, I'm a goddamn cheetah, because I am constantly my whole life trying to undo that shame belief that I, my 10-year-old self decided when she was sitting in therapy sessions for the first all the formative years of my life that I will have to spend my life pretending that I'm not crazy.

Right.

Right.

And, and

what, what's yours?

Well, I mean, growing up in the family that I grew up in,

having so many people needing the attention of your parent, right?

And there's too much, too much need for too little attention.

And then being this gay kid, right?

This this young gay kid inside the Catholic church,

fearing literal hell, right?

choosing myself over hell,

dealing with the kind of internalized homophobia that that still lives inside of me today, sadly.

I feel like I'm an abomination and I am bad.

When we enter into the conflict and you saying, I'm never going to leave you, I love you.

And then we get into the conflict.

That's helping my brain rewire itself.

That's helping me work through some of this trauma.

And so we just, We have promised ourselves never to

use the very thing that is our biggest weakness or our biggest vulnerability against each other in conflict, right?

And so, your

that's I think what fighting fear is, exactly.

Yeah, and I think that

your

tendency to shoot into anger, right?

Like, I want to talk a little bit about that because you know,

why do you think anger is your go-to?

Well, I mean, I think that

growing up, I learned that

love is

loud, that love is like, you know, that conflict is

the way you do things.

That

I had an extremely loving family and I also, there was a lot of anger.

So I'm sure

that.

Because would you say that I also think, like, do you think that I

well,

Here's what I would say

I

You it makes me angry how little you get angry.

Okay.

Like it pisses me right off.

Okay.

So you're

it feels like I I feel like maybe you probably Jacqueline's partner would relate like you it feels to me like you are very uncomfortable with anger.

I'm too comfortable with anger.

Right.

That's my go-to.

And it feels to me like you are averse to anger, that you don't like sometimes I just want to be like, are you feeling this?

Because I sometimes feel like I have to feel it all.

And here's what I secretly think.

I think you feel like you have to stay steady for me because I'm fired up.

But what happens when you get fired up?

What happens?

Oh, you go super calm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cause I'm like, oh, I get to be calm one now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Totally.

So like when I, when I do get angry,

I don't have a difficult time feeling anger.

I have a very difficult time showing anger.

So it's, it's happening inside.

I'm angry.

But one of the things that I've learned throughout my life

is this.

In a marital relationship,

It has never, or in a relationship, period, it has never benefited me

to respond out of anger not one time well what do you think about we have talked before about the anger also being this

I don't know what this is okay but whenever when we get into conflict you have an amazing ability to remind us to always be on the same team

I tend to I don't know why this is I tend to the second we get into conflict, be like, okay, we're opposing teams.

I need to win.

I'm blah, blah, blah.

And you are always reminding me.

Wait, but aren't we on the same team?

Yeah, you go right into individual sport athlete mode.

You're like, I'm fighting for my life.

I'm the only one over here.

This is do or die.

And I am fighting to the death.

And I'm like, ho, ho, ho, ho.

Like,

back up a second.

Like, no matter what happens, like, we are, we're on the same team, right?

I think we're missing part of it

on conflict because it doesn't apply to you two.

But I think we should talk about it because one piece of conflict, Glennon, you said

one of the reasons that Abby doesn't bring conflict up is because of a historical lack of trust that it will be received

in the in a correct and gracious way.

But I think there's a whole nother basket of folks that

it also has this issue of trust that it

is worth your time and effort because anything in your relationship will ever change.

Yeah, that's good.

The ambivalence.

Because that's good.

It's this whole, I mean, it's, it's this whole idea, and it relates so much to conflict for me because part of it, I am a very high conflict person.

Anger is my mother tongue, just like you, Glennon.

There is the comfort of

the default emotion that makes you feel safest.

And when you're desiring to be understood above anything else, being able to make your case so that the other person will understand you is,

I get that completely.

And so I bring a lot of quote-unquote conflict,

but there's, but conflict with the goal of resolution i mean conflict resolution is in fact one of the greatest things that you can accomplish in your life and in your relationship so for me when i view people as not bringing conflict up

i think

it is a

i i think it's being unfaithful to the relationship i think it's it's it's an abdication of your role in the relationship and you are actually hoisting on the other person the responsibility to resolve your conflicts, the responsibility to speak those things out loud.

Because people go their whole lives never voicing any conflict, not because there isn't conflict, but because they're either too lazy to do it.

They don't have the trust in their partner to receive it, or they're just like, you know what?

I tried that for seven years and not a damn thing changed and I'm done.

And that's when you get into

scary places in your relationship.

When you, when you, seriously, when I catch myself not bringing up conflict, I am like, that's scary.

Red flag.

And it's a big because

it's an apathy.

It's a slowly dying.

It's apathy.

It's a slowly dying.

Yes.

Apathy.

It's a slowly dying to, and not really,

it's a, it is an atrophy of the relationship because you are not, it's an investment to me.

I view the willingness willingness to bring conflict to the table, to make yourself vulnerable.

It shows a faith in your relationship, an investment in a relationship, a belief that your relationship could be better than it is.

And if you do not bring conflict to the table, you are saying, My relationship is never going to get better.

It's going to be the same shit every day over and over.

I have the greatest metaphor for any sporty spices out there.

It's like, what, oh, it's like when your coach doesn't say anything to you is when you should worry when your coach is saying things to you and still coaching you and giving you pointers That means they're still invested.

It's the same thing sister.

You just like

you just healed something for me.

That was good.

Like that's so good.

And I think that's why

honestly, that's why I, it annoys me when people who bring up the thing are seen as like difficult or whatever.

And I'm like, to me, I see it as generosity.

I see it as I'm spending my energy on this thing.

Like I'm offering myself.

I'm offering,

to me, it feels

well.

And this is the cost, like the cost that you are paying to have good relationships.

Glennon, you have wonderful relationships and I don't.

I have.

a couple of decent relationships, but you have wonderful relationships with the people in your life because you are paying a price of entry and you're saying hard things and you you're you're on whether you're afraid or not i don't know but you are comfortable with the conflict which leads to a resolution it's really beautiful well but i would say oh sorry go ahead yeah

i would say

um

that you have taught me more about

how to

deal i'm i'm amazing at bringing up conflict escalator i'm amazing at bringing the thing And then I suck.

And then I go into roly-poly,

ragey,

ragey spice, getting nowhere.

I would rather be right than kind.

I would rather be understood than progress, than make progress in the relationship.

So I'm good at, well, babe, it's like everything else in our relationship.

It's like starting, it's like cleaning the garage.

It's like, it's like, I'm great at starting.

You are great at finishing, right?

Like, once we get started, you are the one that keeps us kind.

You are the one that stays vulnerable.

While I'm, I mean, remember, I'm just thinking about the last fight we had, argument in the car.

Even like my body language, I shut down.

I like turned away.

I, I'll,

you know, sigh like it's, and you stay tender and you stay vulnerable and you constantly remind me that I'm not too much and that I'm exactly enough.

I remember saying, I'm exhausting.

And you saying,

no,

you are exhaustive.

And that was so beautiful to me.

It was like, well, you are going to bring up every damn thing, but it's not exhausting.

It's just.

Well, and what we found out with bringing up every damn thing

is it's a little bit the rightness, a little bit the control.

I just recently figured this out that like when you're repeating, like we've come to the end and we're just like going over the analytics of what we've just talked about

i understood in the most clarity that i've had in a long time i was like oh i get this okay so what she's doing right now is we're creating now a new frame of reference a new starting point yes so she's putting her flag in the stand and and this is where we begin from now from here and now yes moving forward we have carried the ball we have carried the ball down the field and here's where we will pick i need to see progress I need to see progress.

I need to say this is the, okay, so now we have not wasted this last hour.

Here is the truer, more beautiful mutual understanding we have agreed upon as of this moment.

It's like when you get off a really mind-numbing conference call for work and somebody's super smart and is like, okay, in short, here's what we've come up with and here's our calls to action.

And you're like, oh, that person's so smart.

That's what I'm trying to do for us, babe.

But I realize it could be seen as ever so slightly controlling.

Okay, I love you.

Let's come back for our next right thing.

I think that I know more than anyone on this entire planet that having the right therapist to talk to can make a life-changing.

difference.

That's why I think Alma is so cool.

Alma connects you with real therapists who understand your unique experience.

You can use their directory to search for someone who specializes in the areas that matter most to you, whether that's anxiety, relationships, or anything else.

And what stands out to me about ALMA is that 97% of people seeing a therapist through ALMA say their therapist made them feel seen and heard.

You know, I love that.

That level of connection isn't something you can get from scrolling through online advice or following social media.

It's about finding someone who truly understands your journey and is dedicated to helping you make progress.

Better with people, better with Alma.

Visit hello alma.com/slash hard things to get started and schedule a free consultation today.

That's hello ALMA.com slash hardthings.

Okay.

Here's our next right thing for this week.

With your pod squad,

think about this question when you get into conflict

when you feel afraid or sad

or hurt

what is the bulletproof jacket that you pull on to protect yourself

just what is it maybe we don't even worry about solving it we just think about you know i have Abby and I and Craig have three kids and we noticed when they were little when it when they'd get afraid when they'd get in trouble the oldest one would always get a humor okay

like i would confront him and he would burst out laughing and it was so infuriating till i figured out oh that's what he does when he's scared right the middle one would go immediately into a shame spiral i am terrible i am awful i am right that was her the youngest one absolute apathy down yeah she just shut down just you could see her eyes go glassy like she just i'm not here anymore i'm not here it was it was like a baby who like covers their face and and is like, Maybe if she, maybe if I cover my face, she'll go away.

Right?

So

let's just think this week: what is your bulletproof vest that you pull on when you're feeling vulnerable?

As you go through this week and life gets hard, and it will, please remember we can do hard things.

Thank you so much for listening, and we will see you back next week.

I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlisle.

I walked through fire, I came out the other side.

I chased desire,

I made sure I got what's mine.

And I continue

to believe

that I'm the one for me.

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line.

Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are map.

A final destination

lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places

they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find

our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do a hard pain.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem,

sometimes things fall apart.

And I continue

to believe

the best

people are free,

and it took some time.

But I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are map.

A final destination

lack.

We stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do hard pain.

We're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay with that.

We've stopped asking directions

in some places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to belong.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do hard things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do

hard

things.

We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.

Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it.

If you didn't, don't worry about it.

It's fine.