2. BOUNDARIES: Are too few (or too many) why we stay stuck?

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Because I mine,

I walk the line.

Well, hi, everybody.

You came back.

Thank you for coming back to We Can Do Hard Things.

I'm really, really looking forward to today because today's episode is about boundaries.

And I have to tell you that the three great loves of my life are my family, coffee,

and boundaries.

Okay, as a

deeply sensitive,

socially anxious introvert, boundaries have been a matter of emotional and spiritual life and death for me, right?

I am a person who loves humanity deeply,

but humans

are tricky for me, right?

And so learning how to human

for the last 45 years has included much difficult learning about building boundaries.

And then having so many boundaries that I have to figure out how to unbuild boundaries.

So let's jump in today and we will figure out if you

have too few or too many boundaries.

Let's go.

Sissy, you here?

I'm here.

Hi, G.

Hi, sister.

What do you have for us today?

What's your hard thing?

Okay, so I want to talk today

about

boundaries.

Right.

So, boundaries are something that I have been trying to figure out for my entire life and have understood differently every decade.

So, first, I think we should start off with

each of our respective definition of boundaries because we can be talking about different things.

Okay.

So, when I say boundaries, what I am talking about is that this idea that

as human beings

it is our birthright not to

just default to everyone and everything having constant and unlimited

and unmitigated access to us right that

part of being human is allowing

well, deciding who and what you will allow into your life, right?

And then

holding that line.

That's what boundaries means to me.

It's the line that you hold that says that stuff or those people or those ideas or that behavior is not allowed in.

And it is my right to hold that line.

So what's your definition of boundaries?

So for me,

setting boundaries

is the process of deciding

what you're responsible for.

So it's this idea of like, it's not just your yes or your no, but it's deciding that you're not responsible for

everyone being okay with your yes or your no.

That you're, you know, I feel like sometimes people, I used to think about boundaries like there's this boundary bucket.

And as it's a question of quantity, right?

How much can I put in my bucket?

And then when do I need to say no when my bucket is full?

And thinking about it as like, as long as our boundaries are aligned with our capacity, we're fine.

But then I started totally rethinking that because

if we do it that way, then how do we know that our bucket is full of the correct things?

And then how do we know that something is not in our bucket that belongs to us?

So for me, it's just been.

I'm newly thinking about it as this idea of

what I'm responsible for in terms of what is mine to do, what is my business, and everything else that I am not responsible for, like your feelings about that, taking care of that thing.

That's not,

that's not mine to do.

That's not my responsibility, and that's my boundary.

Interesting.

And it's interesting that you use the word responsible for, because it kind of, I always think of the word responsible, meaning like I have to respond to that.

Yes.

And I feel like sometimes we think of like, it's all or nothing.

If I take this one thing on,

it's inside my boundary, right?

I'm taking on

this task or this burden.

I have to take everything else that goes with it.

And for me, that's not correct.

It's you may say, that is mine to do.

I'm responsible for doing X, but then you can at the same time say, but I'm not responsible for making you okay with me doing X.

I'm not responsible for your perception of me because I'm doing X.

I'm only responsible for doing X or not doing X.

Interesting.

It's like

what we talk about when we're navigating

what we share with the world, right?

Through my books or my whatever.

And it's, we say all the time, okay, we're responsible for telling the truth.

But we are not responsible for the way the world responds or receives that, right?

We're responsible

to

the telling and the sharing, but we're not responsible for the reaction.

And that helps us set that boundary for art and for sharing.

It's so interesting.

Okay.

So

Untamed is much about boundaries, right?

And there's one story about creating boundaries that

I shared in that book about when Abby and I fell in love and the family's reaction.

And so I thought we could tell that story because I think it's helped people, helped me learn about what kind of healthy boundaries are, right?

And then later we'll get into some of my less healthy boundaries.

But so this is the island story, right?

And I want to tell this.

I want to hear your perspective because I've told this story so many times, but

the world has never heard your

version

or experience of that.

So backdrop is that I

fell in love with a woman.

And

it was a dramatic time because

when this happened, I was in a broken marriage and

also was a very public person.

I was married to a man and I was already a very public person.

I had a book coming out that was about the redemption of that marriage that I was in

and

fell deeply in love with Abby.

And so there were,

there was a lot of real life figuring out boundaries in that time, right?

To who do we tell?

When do we tell it?

How do we tell it?

Whose feelings are we responsible for?

And, you know, when I talk about that story, a lot of people want to hear how I navigated the boundaries boundaries of the world.

Yep.

Right.

Like, how did we deal with the way the Christians felt about me being in love with a woman?

Or how did we navigate the way social media reacted?

And all of that was scary.

And we'll talk about that another time.

But the hardest part for me was dealing with family.

Right.

I mean, boundaries never come.

It's never harder to hold a boundary or to create a boundary or to navigate a boundary when it's the people that you love the most.

Well, what's that line from, what's that line from Umtaine where you say it's not the criticism from the people that hate us that keep us from doing what we need to do?

It's the, it's the love and concern of the people who love us.

Who love us, right?

Yeah, that's what shakes us, right?

So,

so the deal was that I told my parents about being in love with Abby.

And

as you'll learn in this podcast, the four of us, my mom, my dad, sister, and I are,

I mean, we are very close.

I think there's a little bit of what might be seen as a bit of codependency about how much we all care about each other's feelings, right?

So example, I put this in untamed.

One night I was talking to my mom and I'd probably talk to her six times that day.

And she said, what are you doing in the morning?

And I said, I'm going to go get a haircut.

And she said, what are you going to do to your hair?

And I said, well, actually, I'm thinking about cutting bangs.

So we hung up.

The next morning, my phone rings at 6 a.m.

I answer.

I'm like, oh my God, what's wrong?

It's my mom.

My mom says, hi, honey.

I just, I'm sorry to call so early, but I just really didn't sleep last night.

I just need to talk to you about something that's worrying me.

And I said, what, mom?

She said, it's the bangs, honey.

I'm really worried.

You don't do well with bangs.

You get bangs and then and then it's years of bobby pins and tears.

And I just feel like your life is hard enough without bangs.

And

you remember that, right?

Yeah, to be fair.

Our family was not in a place to be able to emotionally assimilate to the bangs experiment.

Right?

The bangs were a bridge too far.

So, I'm just explaining that if this is a woman who stayed up all night because her daughter was about to get bangs,

you can imagine how she reacted when her daughter told her that she was going to leave her husband and marry a female Olympian,

right?

She was freaking terrified, okay?

And she

tried to be loving with that terror.

But every time I talked to her,

I felt myself

just spinning.

Just, I could hear the concern, like just the, oh, but honey, you know, what is, what is the world going to say?

What about the kids?

Have like the kids' friends, the kids' teacher, just like everything.

I felt like I was explaining myself, that I was trying to convince her that it was okay.

I felt like a 10-year-old again, you know, trying to assert my

independence.

And

it's so fascinating because it's like the people who love us, they just want us to be okay, right?

And they're so afraid that the world is going to be

fearful.

And so they end up bringing the fear to us that they

worry the world will bring to us.

It's not even the world that brings it.

It's them.

Right.

Right.

If they bring it to you first, then you can avoid having the reaction from the world who doesn't even love you.

You can, they can bring it to your doorstep.

You can say, oh, I don't want that.

And then you can stop.

You can preempt whatever is going to come.

Right.

Which is just not,

I mean, it's also this, this whole thing that, you know, there are generations and

we have somehow equated worry with love.

Right.

So that's a whole nother thing.

But you,

one day I called you.

I think I used to hang up with mom and then just call you to bitch about whatever had just happened.

Right.

I think that was the general pattern of those times.

Historically, yes.

Right, right.

So I would say.

And then mom would be calling in on the other line so she could report to me what was happening.

I mean,

listen, poor sister is just.

the translator, the everything.

Okay.

For everybody, for everyone in our family.

So,

so I called you one day and said, I just spun.

I said, she's making me feel like I can't do the thing.

And I feel like I'm constantly justifying myself or explaining myself.

And it just makes me so upset.

And, and you said, do you remember what you said to me?

Yes.

I believe I said something like.

You're so defensive

of what you're doing.

And the only reason you need to be defensive ever is if you feel like someone can take something from you.

Then you have to defend it.

But you are a grown-ass woman and no one can take this from you.

If you decide that Abby is what you want and this life is what you want,

you can stop defending it and just do it.

Yes.

And

I don't know why that was so

shifting.

It was shifting for me, right?

It was like, that is it.

It's

defensiveness or that sort of panic we have is only for people who feel like what they have can be taken, right?

And so I was enacting this

wrong pattern or power thing with mom, which was like,

it was almost an asking permission,

right?

Like, it's, it's like I was trying to convince her that it was okay, that I was okay by telling her how okay it was.

But no one has ever convinced anyone in the history of the world that they are okay

by talking about how okay they are, right?

The only way we convince people that we're okay is we just go about

being okay

and we allow them to witness it.

And eventually they go, huh, I guess she knew what she was doing.

Right.

Correct.

Correct.

And I think, I mean, it's not that mom could have literally taken that away.

It's not that you would have

not been able to do it if mom didn't understand it.

It's this idea that if we,

that we live under, that is, if that, if we are not able to bring that, the people that we love in line so they're affirming our decisions, then we will not allow ourselves

to do the thing that we need to do.

So her, so the taking it from you in your head was, well, if I can't convince my mom that this is okay, can I convince myself that this is okay?

Yes.

And that's, okay, so that's what you're talking about in terms of what I'm responsible for.

I, for some reason, felt I was responsible for everyone feeling amazing about my decision.

Right.

When in fact, it wasn't my job

to

convince anyone else,

right?

That that's the part that was

panicking me and taking me away from my knowing and taking me away from my peace, right?

That that was mom's job to figure out and it was my job to just say, here it is.

Here's the decision.

Godspeed.

Right.

And to be fair, it's very hard to be responsible for your own decisions when you're looking around at people who love you and care about you, and they are not affirming those decisions.

So it's either I'm not responsible for your reaction to my decision.

And the equivalent of that is, I am responsible for my decisions and having

peace

in making my decisions, regardless of anyone else understanding.

Yet.

yet,

yet, yet,

why

this decision is the next right thing for me.

Yeah, I saw this meme recently that said,

it's not everyone's job to understand your calling.

It wasn't a conference call.

Yeah, I saw that too.

We'll find who.

Right.

We need to find out who said that because that's so true.

It's so, it's amazing how many times I have had to,

whether it's in work, in

my family, in parenting, just be like, nobody gets this, but it's right anyway.

And eventually they will, right?

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Okay, so here's here's the rest of that story.

So after that conversation that we had on the phone,

I found myself, I think I was at a track meet.

I was at one of Chase's track meets.

But anyway, I remember standing under a tree.

Mom called.

She was, I could just feel the fear, feel the worry in her voice, you know, and she said, we're coming.

Dad and I are coming

to Florida.

And I just just remembered what you said.

And I had this moment.

And I said, no,

you can't come.

You cannot come because

you are still afraid.

You are afraid.

And my children are not afraid.

They don't carry this fear of the world that you have for many reasons, because of the way we raise them, because of the generation they're from, because of the way we're walking through this, because of the people they are.

And so if you come here, they will see the fear in your eyes and they will take it on.

They will help you carry it because they love and trust you, right?

So it's my job as their mother,

as the parent, to

make sure that they don't feel like they have to carry that fear from you, to make sure that that contagious fear doesn't get to them.

So what, right?

So I said, what I need to tell you, mom, is I love love you so much.

And it sounds like you have a problem.

I don't have that problem.

My kids don't have that problem.

This fear that you have is your problem.

And so, I need you to go

on your own and figure out this problem that you have, which is your fear.

Right.

And, and, and when you are ready to, when you've worked out that problem and you are ready to come to our family with nothing

but

respect and joy and celebration,

then

we will lower our drawbridge for you, but not one second sooner.

I'm quite sure that I didn't say it with that much eloquence, but that was the gist.

Okay.

And

it was so weird.

It was so weird.

And I just remember mom being like,

I think her exact words were,

I will think about what you've you've said, honey.

I know that love.

She's always trying.

She's always trying.

But what you did in that moment is you clarified

what she was not responsible for and what she was responsible for.

Right.

It didn't, it's not like you took away the fear from her, but you

said, I am not responsible.

I, Glennon, am not not responsible for making you feel okay

about that.

And mom, you're not responsible for the way the world in the future responds to our family.

But what you are wholly responsible for

is how you respond to our family.

Right.

Right.

Because in all these situations,

I mean, just being a teacher, just working with kids for so long, like I believe that a kid can handle whatever the world brings to them.

As long as at the end of the day, they know they can look at their parent and that their parent wouldn't change a hair on their head.

Right?

Like, that's what I have seen be true over and over again, but so often that the parents are so afraid that they bring the very fear that they're, that they're worried exists in the world right to the doorstep.

And it's it's amazing because it's the same.

It's not a fundamental shift.

I mean, if, if, if love from a parent in the situation we're describing is this like rushing flood,

it's just dive, she was rushed, her love was rushing towards you to try to

help you not make a decision that she thought was going to be devastating to you and to your family.

So, but it was just diverting that flood to, no, it's channel it this way.

Channel it this way,

and all of that love

will be used

effectively.

But over here,

this is not where your love belongs.

Your love belongs channeled this way.

And it was

sometimes it's a simple shift of understanding and a relief.

Like, I absolve you, mom, of responsibility to make the world okay for me.

Yes.

I absolve you of responsibility for my decisions.

All you have to do is show up and love me.

Right.

And by the way, it's so interesting what happens then because I see people, there's so many different ways to react

as a parent in this situation, but it seems like there is a couple major channels that people take.

And one is, I am so afraid that I'm going to try to change you for the world.

And then there is this other take that mom seems to have taken on, which is, no, you're perfect and I am going to change the world for you.

Okay.

So what you listener might not know is that my mom is now the fiercest freaking activist in our family.

Like she has been since since this time, she's probably been to more marches than we.

I mean, she and my dad show up with their little rainbow flags at gay pride marches by themselves, right?

Just like they,

they have taken on this whole, I mean, my mom plans transgender remembrance ceremonies at her, she goes to, what kind of church is she?

Unitarian church.

She goes to a Unitarian church because the Christians were pissing her off too much with all the homophobia.

So she, she has just become, she's political.

She writes letters.

She organizes.

She has just goddamn cheated her way through this.

She just said, okay.

Yeah.

Her flood is flowing in in a totally different direction.

But it's still the intensity, the same intensity that she was worried is now the intensity that she's

channeling for that.

I mean, God love her.

I'll be like, can you babysit the kids?

Oh, I'm sorry, honey.

I'm down at the Senate.

Yes.

I just have to, I just have a couple more hours of this

particular action.

Yes.

So sorry.

Yes.

It's so fascinating.

And by the way, it doesn't, I'm sure it doesn't always work that way.

I mean, so many people set boundaries and they lose people.

Correct.

Right.

I mean, that has happened to me too.

I, I, but, but the idea of

the idea that when I mentioned the drawbridge and this idea of untamed and untamed about the, the, the island metaphor is, you know, when we were first starting to tell this, our story to the public.

I don't know, maybe it was on social media.

I don't know, but I started to feel overwhelmed.

The internet had feelings

as it does,

yeah,

about me and Abby.

And so, you know, sometimes I'm really good at filtering that stuff out and sometimes I'm terrible at it.

And I had a bit of a breakdown one night about some cruelty,

some homophobia that was coming towards me.

And Abby sat me down and she said, Okay, here's what we're going to do.

She said,

We are going to think of our love as an island.

Okay.

We are, we have found the thing.

We have found the thing we both have been looking for our whole lives for.

We have found this love that, you know,

is so desperately wanted by human beings.

We have it.

It's a treasure.

It's on this island.

It's you and me and the kids and Craig.

We are on this island.

Our love is young.

We have to protect it.

Right.

Everybody else and all of their opinions are on the other side of the moat.

right?

And our moat has crocodiles in it.

Crocodiles in it.

And we will only

lower the drawbridge

for love,

wild acceptance, celebration.

Right.

And they can yell and scream as much as they want on the other side of that moat.

We can't even hear them.

We're too busy over here dancing on our island, right?

And that is the metaphor that we carry all the time.

And it's so interesting because I think that

sometimes we make the mistake of thinking, okay, it's my job, and especially for women, okay, it's my job to make sure that everybody on my island loves and respects and accepts me and my family.

And I think actually it's like, no,

our

job and joy

is to only allow people on our island to already do

respect and love and celebrate us.

Right?

So,

you know, we talk all the time about what

if we have a co-builder in our life or if we're building on our own, just thinking about what are the non-negotiables?

Like, what are the things that we will not allow on our island ever?

And it's so interesting because it's often not, I think we say, we think that we have to decide what people are allowed on and off.

But then that's what screws us up, right?

Because if you decide that, well, obviously my mom's allowed on my island, what happens if she's bringing some early homophobia?

No.

Right?

If we decide, well, obviously my father-in-law is allowed on my island.

What happens when he brings his racism?

Like, the hard thing is that our non-negotiables are often ideas and things.

And people, even if they're the people closest to us, don't get to come on and bring it.

Right?

I mean, the time, the moment I had to tell my mom, no, you may not come on my island,

was I think the hardest boundary I've ever set,

sort of a final frontier for me.

And I think the moment when I became an adult,

the moment

when a mother and a daughter became two mothers.

Right.

It was like,

oh, no, no, no, no, no.

You had your chance to build your island.

Now it's my turn.

Right.

Now it's my turn.

You're a guest now.

You're not a co-builder with me.

Right.

Yeah.

Your protection, your attempt to protect me is interfering with my protection of my children.

So if I have a choice to choose between daughter and mother,

I'm choosing mother every time.

Right?

Okay, let's take a break.

And when we come back, we will answer some hard questions about boundaries.

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Hi, sister.

Hi Sissy.

Okay, we have questions.

All right, our first one is from Lindsay.

Hi, G and sister.

This is Lindsay, and I'm calling for some advice.

So I recently set a pretty tough boundary with my mother-in-law, which actually took a lot of courage, and I'm really proud of myself for doing it.

And in the moment, she seemed to handle it well, and I felt good about it going forward.

And then the next day, she called my husband to complain.

And she also called my sister-in-law to gossip about it, which, as you can imagine, didn't feel great.

And now she's being really cold to me in person, and the whole thing feels like a big mess.

And I just kind of don't know where to go from here.

So, any advice you have, help me, please.

Love you both.

Yes,

this feels very familiar.

Okay, so Lindsay,

what I have learned is that the hard part of setting boundaries is not actually the setting of the boundary.

It's actually not saying the thing.

That's not the hardest part.

Okay.

The hardest part of boundaries is

withstanding

happens next.

Okay.

The hard part of boundaries is being okay

with the outcome.

And the outcome of setting a boundary is usually people having feelings about it.

It's like that Seinfeld episode where it's like, the taking of the reservation isn't the important part of the reservation.

It's the keeping of the reservation.

That's the most important part of the reservation.

That is it.

That is it.

So the pattern is that we finally get the nerve to set the boundary with somebody, right?

But we are so conditioned and obsessed with being liked that when the person has feelings about it, or when the person's mad at us or disappointed or cold or gossips, we take that as a sign that we did something wrong, that there's a problem that we now have to fix.

And then we go about fixing things, which is usually an undoing of of the boundary, right?

So it's like two parts.

Setting boundaries is two parts.

It's the first part where you're saying the thing and setting it.

And then it's the second harder part, which is being like a strong little tree in a storm.

When the storm starts and everyone has the feelings, just staying rooted and grounded until it passes, right?

So

I feel this is just reminding me of something that happened to me a while while back.

Okay.

So quick story.

So my kids go to school, right?

And I have a complicated relationship with

when my kids were in elementary school.

Like I never, whenever I go to school to, for a school event, I end up feeling like I did in actual school.

Like I don't know where to stand.

I don't know which moms to stand with or sit with.

I'm not in on the social happenings of like the PTA.

While I'm very grateful, I'm not in on it because of many reasons.

So I feel a little bit anxious sometimes when I'm visiting school.

And so I have also, because I'm an introvert and all the things, I have maintained over time that when I'm at school, I'm there to like see my kid and be with my kid.

And I'm not very social, right?

Which works out fine usually.

But there was a time recently where I realized that my kid was having a trouble with another kid.

And I knew this other kid's mom, right?

So I call the mom and I say, oh my gosh, this sucks.

Like, let's help them figure it out.

Okay.

And she says, well, actually, this has been going on for six months.

And I said,

wait, what?

Why didn't you tell me about this?

And she said,

well, honestly, I find you to be unapproachable.

Okay.

Sister, you, I'm sure you remember this day.

I am sure that you remember me calling you from the car,

hysteric, like freaking out.

I thought that this was the worst thing that had ever happened.

I thought that this was failure, like some kind of terrible failure as a woman, that my kid could have been struggling.

And one of these mothers did not find me approachable.

Right.

I thought being unapproachable was the worst thing that somebody could say about me.

So later that night, I call Liz.

You know, Liz is the, besides you, the other person that I talk to about all of my challenges, my very many challenges.

And I told her the story.

And I said, and then, and then she said,

I'm unapproachable.

And Liz was quiet.

And then she said,

Okay, so, so what's the problem?

And I said,

She called me unapproachable.

And Liz said,

Okay, so do you want to be approached?

And I said,

no.

And she said,

okay, honey, then well done.

Good job, honeyhead.

That's what she calls me, honeyhead.

And I thought, oh my gosh.

Okay.

So the consequence of me taking care of myself in that school situation, right?

is that some people might have perceptions of me.

When we we set a boundary, other people might

have perceptions of us.

And what our business is, is the boundary.

What our business is not, is other people's definitions of or perceptions of that boundary.

Does that ring true?

It does.

I think it's, I think it's, it's totally natural.

I mean, that mother-in-law of Lindsay, it's, I mean, she's obviously using the tools she has.

And if she's gossiping and that's one thing, that's not the healthiest tool.

But every time someone is, everyone is always just adapting.

They're either adapting to the boundaries you don't set or they're adapting to the boundaries that you do, right?

So you can either choose to not upset the ecosystem and keep it the way it's always been.

or you can choose to set something, in which case there's going to be shifts that happen around you.

And I guess it's just, it comes down to what you always say, Glennon, which is like, you can either disappoint other people or you can disappoint yourself.

But if maintaining the status quo and not setting your boundary isn't

nothing, it is in fact disappointing yourself because you are aware of a boundary that you are then

not maintaining because of the kind of

the the disturbance in the force that it

right, disturbance in the force.

So you just count the cost beforehand, right?

You say, I understand that I'm going to set this boundary and that there might be ripples and consequences that I will have to withstand in the short term because we teach people how to treat us.

And when we set a boundary, we're changing something.

We're changing a pattern that people have become comfortable with.

So when we change a pattern, people become uncomfortable.

And that is okay.

It is okay to allow people to be uncomfortable so that you can find some comfort in the relationship.

Right.

And I think it's also okay to just say, that's the price.

And I'm willing to pay that price because I have fought so hard for my peace that I think maintaining it is more important to me actually in this moment than being liked and approved of.

And it's helpful because then you know that is a consequence that will happen.

Yeah.

So it's not, it doesn't mean there's something wrong with your boundary.

It means it's a natural consequence of setting boundaries.

It doesn't mean that you've misstepped.

No, it just means it's working.

Carry on.

Okay, we have another question.

This one's from Kathleen.

And she wrote, I understand my boundaries in general.

In general, they are very clear to me.

But when someone crosses one in real life, everything suddenly feels less clear.

And I never react in real time in a way that feels honoring of my boundaries.

Ooh, I feel that one.

Me too.

Because it so often feels like my boundaries are in conflict with expectations the whole world seems to have agreed on.

How can you tell if your boundaries are reasonable or whether you're just being high maintenance?

Oh, Kathleen,

I feel this one so deeply.

First of all, I think, you know, words like high maintenance or

even controlling sometimes control freak, difficult, these are words that people say about women who have thoughts and opinions.

And so, you you know, I'm always on the lookout for not being too concerned about those words.

But what really, what I really connect to in this question is that I have so many boundaries that

I have accepted the rest of the world may not have, right?

It's like

boundaries are, they're just, they're not universal often.

They're, they're often specific to you, right?

So, so the whole world may have decided that this one thing doesn't cross their boundary, but it might still cross yours.

And the whole world acclimating to it doesn't matter.

It matters what fits you, Kathleen, right?

So you have to listen to you or you will be forever frustrated and bitter, right?

So I have a hundred examples of these boundaries that don't make sense to other people.

I mean, we could talk about one of the things that constantly appalls people

is my texting boundary.

It's one way that the world just decided we were going to communicate with each other without asking anyone's permission.

This idea of texting that,

you know, any time of the day, no matter what I'm doing at any point, someone can just send me a text as if they're just like sending me an IOU, right?

Like or an IO them,

right?

They just,

like, I'm just minding my own business, trying to like stay balanced throughout the day, which is very difficult.

Just trying to do all the things I have to do, just trying to, you know, human my way through the day.

But at any moment, anyone who happens to be who needs something from me or think of me or whatever can just send me a text and then I am obligated to stop whatever I'm doing and write them back okay

and then

and then if I don't write them back then I'll get like a passive aggressive thing that's like I don't know if you saw this.

And then if I dare not to write back to that, if I happen to see that human being.

Are you okay?

Oh my God.

Are you okay?

I just didn't know.

I just, is everything okay?

Because I didn't.

Yeah.

I know.

I get that all the time.

And I just feel

like I cannot spend all day indebted to people that I didn't ask

for input from.

For input from, right?

And then, and then I'll feel guilty.

So like half the day, I'm thinking about all of these people that I owe something to, right?

So then

if I decide to actually text them back, because I will literally write on my things to do, text this person back, text this person back, text this person back, which takes me longer than it would just to text the person back.

Yes, of course, especially when you rewrite it on all of your lists, because you definitely didn't do it the day you were supposed to.

Every day for a month.

Right.

Right.

And then I go to bed with shame that I didn't text the person, right?

But here's the thing about texting.

You text them back, you finally write it, take it off your to-do list.

And then what happens?

They text you back.

It's a never-ending,

it's untenable.

It's the tyranny of the text, truly.

It's also like, when did we decide to take this on as a side hustle, just a whole nother part-time job that we're just going to be in constant communication with people all day long about various things?

I mean, I know, I know it's, it's, I know it's, it's like we're talking about it in a funny way, but I actually feel it's not right on a deeply human spiritual level.

Like I do not wake up in the morning on this earth to be in constant response to everyone else.

Like I actually want to be in creative mode.

I want to, and I don't mean I'm making, writing books all the time.

I just mean I want to intentionally decide what to do with my time.

And I don't want to constantly be owing everybody.

It's just, it's a new thing.

This is not the way that humanity has lived until like yesterday, right?

When we all decided we owe each other constant check-ins.

So anyway, I don't text people back, right?

And I know that it hurts people's feelings, but I just, it hurts my feelings more to try to get them through it.

Right.

I choose myself.

There's two sets of feelings here, people.

That's right.

I mean, choosing mine.

To the point where when I got married at my wedding, so Abby and I made our wedding list.

At first, we had everyone we love love on our list, right?

And it was like way too huge.

So we said, okay, let's do everyone we love and like.

Big difference.

And then it was like 20 people, right?

Right.

So, so we had like 25 people at our wedding, all at a big table.

And I stood up and I said, thank you for coming to our wedding.

And I, I, what I want you to all do is look at each other.

And I want you to, to, to tell your neighbor if I've ever texted you back.

Okay.

And so I want to take this moment to prove that it is not personal.

I love and like you.

You're here.

But I will never text you back.

Okay.

So anyway, texts are not the boss of me.

I will not be ruled by texts.

Well, it's all just an example of like things that don't work for you.

Like just because

there's a new thing that everyone's doing, just because it works for the person who is texting you, it is in fact convenient for them to reach out.

They do, it works.

That mode of communication works for them.

It, it doesn't mean that you should shift yourself to make that work for you.

No, that's right.

That's exactly right.

And you have to know yourself too.

I am an anxious person.

The idea that I would add this level of anxiety that makes me feel buzzy, it makes me feel ungrounded.

But I just don't choose it because I know myself.

And I think there's when plenty of my friends, when I talk about this, they look at me like I have lost my mind.

They have no idea what I'm talking about.

True.

That's very true.

It causes them no extra anxiety.

It's delightful, actually, for people to be,

it's the difference between people are like, that either feels like a happy little moment throughout their day, or it feels like someone just poking you in the forehead all day long.

Okay, that's what I feel.

I feel like it's someone poking me in the forehead and then getting mad that I didn't smile and hug them after they poked me in the forehead.

But that's what I mean.

We're not making a universal commentary on the texting.

It's just that there are different experiences of that.

And if it doesn't work for you, you do not need to succumb to the tyranny of the text.

You need to just explain that that is not part of your life.

Right.

So then the funny thing is that people will be like, okay, then should I call you?

And I'm like, how?

Oh, hell no.

Are you out of your mind?

Should I come to your house then?

Oh, no.

For Christ's sake.

gosh what is this the 80s we're not calling people it's not actually

we're not coming to their home actually it's so dramatic that i will text people in advance of the very rare time that i have to call them about something and say i'm about to call you everything's okay everyone's healthy nothing's wrong because people are so alarmed if i actually call them that they think well someone has perished.

Yes.

Yes.

Right.

So, so that is a boundary.

Texting is a boundary for me.

Sister, what is a boundary that you don't think is healthy that you're trying to let burn?

Boundaries have been a struggle for me to understand my whole life because I feel like when you

grow up like we did with a dominant personality, like with someone who's, there's one person in your family whose emotional fluctuations kind of dictate the experience of other family members.

It, you learn very early to be highly emotionally attuned

to that person's

emotional calibration.

So you can kind of stay one step ahead.

So you can keep the peace and all of that.

And so I kind of did that my whole life and then only learned after

much after that that's an actual thing that like folks who experience that have this

kind of practice called emotion monitoring, which basically means that they're living all of their lives and all of their personal relationships in this kind of hyperactive awareness of everyone else's experience in that moment.

So,

and you learn that your role is kind of to accommodate, keep everyone comfortable, and you're so busy being a fixer in that situation that you lose touch with the fact that you're actually having your own experience.

So,

in other words,

you have completely lost any boundary between

everybody else's experience of a situation and your own experience of the situation because yours is theirs.

So, this is the situation where you and I will be at a restaurant

and we will not even be enjoying our experience or even having an experience because we will be worried that a person at the next table is talking too loud or a person at the table over there is having a bad experience or we're we're on eggshells constantly because we learned that we have to make this environment perfect so that this one person doesn't get upset.

Yeah.

I mean, it got to the point for me for airplanes were

were

untenable for me.

I mean, it would be like the guy on 16E is taking up too much space and that girl doesn't have enough space and that baby is crying and I'm so worried about that mother.

And also that person is talking too loud and their earphones are up too loud.

And this whole thing, and I'm responsible for all of this, all of this.

And

it's, it's a sick place to live for yourself and for people who

then are watching you.

So I, I recently, my son is very, he is a high monitor as well.

And I have seen him recently say things

like,

why is so-and-so

so upset about that like very subtle you know please please don't be mad at so-and-so I mean it's a very and and this this pattern of handing down is what I need to break and it's so it's just a it's a boundary that I'm working on so I have just started

practicing the boundary of that I am not responsible for the energy in the room.

Wow.

That in fact, the reality is, is that everyone is responsible for their own experience right now.

And not only am I not responsible for theirs and getting upset when they're having bad behavior and getting defending the one who isn't having justice in her seat.

You know, it's, it's like I am actually responsible for my experience.

And in being responsible for everyone else's, I'm absolving myself of being responsible for making this experience the best one it can be for me and my family instead of taking on all the emotions, good, bad, and ugly in the room.

Well, then because we're ruining our kids' lives.

Like just, I mean,

Chase said to me, we were playing a game recently where we were asking each other deep questions or something.

And one of the questions said something like, what would you change about this person, me, that you think would make their life better?

If you could, that was the question.

And Chase said, okay,

I guess I would say, I wish you were better able to adapt to different situations without having to control everything so much to be comfortable.

I wish you could just be more comfortable in many different situations.

And I know.

And what he means is

you,

Chase means that he has grown up worried all the time about every room he's in because he's worried about his mom's experience.

Okay.

He's seeing it through your eyes.

What isn't okay to you?

What is not?

That's exactly right.

I mean, I got, I got to the point where I was trying to rush, like growing up, really special, wonderful events, just wanting them to be over instead of enjoying them.

Yes.

Yes.

And then recently, Abby said to me that she feels herself having more anxiety in any social situation.

Why?

Because if somebody starts interrupting, she knows that interrupting is my, one of my boundaries.

And so she's worried that this person is interrupting and now I'm going to freak out.

Or, or this person's dominating the whole conversation.

And she knows that I hate that so much.

And so she's,

she's constantly living the experience through her fear of how I'm living the experience.

And, and, you know, it's tricky because I think that

people who are highly sensitive

tend to have to, as coping mechanisms, create all kinds of boundaries around them.

Right.

Like

I'll never forget, Abby and I were at a hotel

and we went down, this is pre-COVID, obviously, we went down to the like free breakfast or whatever.

We walked into this free breakfast room.

Okay.

It was 12 minutes of hell.

Okay.

There was like a baby screaming at this table and then the mom was working so hard to try to help the baby.

But the dad was just watching CNN without doing a damn thing, leaving this woman just screaming, like the baby was not even belonging to him.

There's

a man and a woman arguing like so unkindly over at a table.

There was a kid trying to get her cereal, but no one would help her.

And she's so upset, right?

So the whole thing was so overwhelming.

We get back to our room, or maybe just to the elevator.

We walk, yeah, we walk into the elevator, and I am holding

a roll.

That's it.

I have a roll.

Okay.

I don't eat a roll for breakfast.

Abby has her whole breakfast.

She goes, what happened?

What, what happened?

Why don't you have anything?

I'm like,

what do you mean?

Like, that was, we were just in a war zone, right?

I was just trying to get through it.

I was just trying to get out of there.

And she was like, what?

She just

had a lovely experience.

she had not noticed none of it well she got her that's just not only did she not notice it like you actually had those experiences you were you were the mom who was trying to control like it it's hard to explain but you're actually that experience is your experience so you walk out having had all those experience completely depleted yes and it's why

And it's why social experiences are exhausting because you are having the experience of every person in the room and you're

metabolizing all of that all at once while also trying to be your own self in the room.

It's exhausting.

It's exhausting.

And I do believe that

being a highly sensitive person

has

helped me figure out.

all of my boundaries, right?

As we talked about in the earlier episode,

we have, I have created an island, right?

What I would say about that now in my life is that the challenge of my life is that I'm always overdoing everything.

Moderation is not your bag.

No, if you tell me, like this face cream, this mask, if you put it on for six minutes, it will change your life.

I'm like, well, if it will change my life at six minutes, what if I leave it on for six hours?

Like, it's, I'm going to like become, so always, right?

It's like, there is zero moderation.

And so I have boundaried myself so much, sister, and you know this, that Abby and I talk about all the, like, I don't have any friend.

Like, I'm,

everything bothers me, right?

Everything's a deal breaker.

Everything's, so I have overdone the boundaries.

It's like.

I spent so long creating this self, knowing like who I am and what I need and what I'll accept and what I won't

that

now I have this amazing sense of self,

but nobody else.

Right.

Because if you cannot tolerate interrupting, if you cannot tolerate people talking too much, if you cannot tolerate people using loud voices, if you cannot tolerate like

people are people.

And so At what point, I remember talking to Liz Gilbert about this and being like, I feel like I

have spent my 30s and 40s figuring out my sense of self and my boundaries.

And now I have to spend the next decade

somehow disintegrating all of it.

Right?

Like, and that seems so exhausting.

And like, it was all worthless.

And she did tell me a story about how she was working with this spiritual guide who said that we do all inevitably have to.

figure out that the self

is not real, that we're all connected, but that the only way that she can help people get to that part is when they've already created a strong sense of self.

So it seems to be a pattern that we have to do first before we can.

But I mean, Abby and I do talk all the time about the fact that we want to go into this next decade of our lives and like

add more people to our island and figure out how have friends.

Right.

And to me, it goes back to like my definition of boundaries being deciding what you're responsible for.

Like you are actually not responsible for the fact that somebody else

doesn't act the way you want them to.

Right.

Like you're not responsible for someone else's interrupting.

That's literally not your business.

I know, but it just upsets me because I feel so strongly about everybody getting a chance to show themselves, to talk.

And then it's some people takes longer for them to finally reveal the thing and finally say the thing.

So when somebody's finally saying the thing and then somebody else comes in and cuts them off, it makes me want to stick a fork in their eye, right?

Because I feel like they're ruining that other person's experience of life.

Right.

So you're taking responsibility for that other person's experience of life.

Yeah.

Who I just,

let's just be totally clear.

And yes, that's obnoxious and annoying, but it is not,

it is not yours to carry.

No.

And just to be clear, while I'm worried that that is going to ruin everyone's experience, I am for sure ruining everyone's experience.

100%.

You're ruining everyone's experience because you are sending out the energy that everything is not okay in this situation.

Right.

Like, I want us all to be kind and I will kick everyone's ass if they're not.

I will reign terror over this until everyone is comfortable.

That's exactly right.

Okay.

So what is a boundary that you are trying to work on setting?

If setting boundaries is this process of deciding what you're responsible for, it seems I made the decision

a long time ago that

I

am solely responsible for myself.

So

that boundary makes parts of me inaccessible.

It kind of stunts my relationships in

ways.

And I think with my husband, John.

So

I view

like when I'm struggling, when I'm worried, when I'm hurt, it's very hard for me to ask for help.

It's, it's, it's very hard to say that I'm having a hard time because that to me suggests that I'm not doing the thing I'm responsible for, which is taking care of myself.

So

what I'm trying to do is tear down this boundary that I'm responsible for handling all of my shit with no help and no support from the people who love me.

So

I'm just practicing saying things like, I'm having trouble, or

I'm really struggling with this because

it does come out no matter what.

I'm just much more comfortable with anger than I am admitting that I'm having trouble

taking care of things.

So we call that.

We call that in our family the

bulletproof vest.

Anger is like the bulletproof vest that we put on over fear.

Right.

So that's how it comes out.

Instead of just being like, I'm really struggling with this.

And that's why I'm acting this way.

Instead of just being like, well, damn it, if I could get some help around here, maybe I wouldn't.

So that is my boundary.

I'm worried.

Brene calls that, let's try to be scared without being scary.

Yes.

Yes.

Straight to scary.

Right.

Okay.

Let's move on to the next right thing.

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This week, I think that the next right thing should just be this.

Let's all just think of one boundary.

that we want to set

and one boundary that we want to let burn.

And let's not even worry about doing it.

Let's just write it down first.

That's your job for this week.

That's it.

Thank you so much for being with us this week.

And we will see you back here next Tuesday.

When things get hard this week, don't forget we can do hard things.

Right, sissy?

Right, sissy.

I give you Tish Milton and Brandy Carlisle.

I walked through fire,

I came out the other side.

I chased desire,

I made sure I got what's mine.

And I continue

to believe

that I'm the one for me.

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line.

Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are map.

A final destination,

you lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do a heart pain.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem,

sometimes things fall apart.

And I continue

to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took some time.

But I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

Our final destination

we lack.

We stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a hard pain.

This world adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay

with that.

We've stopped asking directions

in some places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do hard things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do

hard

things.

We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.

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