The Best Advice We’ve Got on Loneliness & Jealousy (Best Of)

Speaker 1 Hello, pod squad.

Speaker 1 I just want to let you know that we will be taking a quick pause with no new episode on Tuesday, but you're going to want to come back on Thursday, September 4th, for the first episode of my new Video First Women's Sports Podcast with Legends and my friends, Billie Jean King and Julie Faudi.

Speaker 1 If you haven't yet listened to last Thursday's episode with Julie Faudi, you're going to want to go back and make sure you do to hear all about it.

Speaker 1 And if you have listened and you're not already following Welcome to the Party, go do that now wherever you get your podcasts and follow at Welcome to the Party Show on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.

Speaker 1 In the meantime, please enjoy this best of episode where we talk about who we really turn to for advice and whether we even want advice at all or just someone to truly listen.

Speaker 1 We also take on your questions about navigating loneliness and the unexpected jealousy that can arise when your partner's affection is directed towards your pet.

Speaker 1 Let's jump in.

Speaker 2 Hello, love bugs. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.
Today, this is the plan. We're going to give you our best advice,

Speaker 2 Not like advice that we've gathered from other people. We're going to listen to some challenges that you all have sent to us via email or voicemail.

Speaker 2 And we are going to give you our best advice. Okay.
We're not saying it's going to be good advice. Yeah, just our best.
What we're saying is we're going to give you our best ideas and advice.

Speaker 2 So before we start, let's take a minute and talk about advice.

Speaker 2 Who do you two trust to give you good advice? Can you think of people that when you have a problem, you know, that person will give me good advice?

Speaker 1 I mean, I obviously will say you two, for sure. You both are brilliant advice givers.
But outside of you two, I would say Liz and Alex.

Speaker 3 Yes, same.

Speaker 1 Those are my two.

Speaker 2 Liz Gilbert, Alex Heddison. Why? What is it about, let's first take Liz.

Speaker 2 What is it about her that makes you trust her advice?

Speaker 1 I think because she's gone through a lot of stuff in her life and has

Speaker 1 proactively went in search of figuring some of that stuff out

Speaker 1 both alex and liz aren't well that just happened i'm not gonna like

Speaker 1 go in any kind of search and analyze like they are

Speaker 1 the most proactive about understanding themselves and the world and how those two can compete against each other and with each other.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's like if you were going to trust somebody to tell you about the world, you would trust an adventurer, like someone who had gone out and seen a lot of different places.

Speaker 2 And Alex and Liz are both people who are adventurers of the human experience. They dig in.
Yes. They do recovery, they do therapy, they do talking to people.
They do like their adventures of the soul.

Speaker 2 Yes. And so when you bring them a problem, it's almost like they're like, please.

Speaker 1 I know. I've done it even.

Speaker 1 I brought this one thing to Alex that I was so, I was devastated.

Speaker 1 I was devastated about.

Speaker 2 And she reframed that shit in two seconds.

Speaker 1 And the way that she heard my story, she was unaffected. Yeah.
And I was like, how is this person not floored and surprised and shocked by this? It was like she had heard.

Speaker 3 a million worse words. Like you think you're special? Yes.
This shit is just life.

Speaker 2 So what was interesting about that story is you brought her to her a problem you were having that somebody did something that upset you very much. Yes.

Speaker 2 And the way that Alex reframed it, which I thought was so interesting, is that she didn't focus on the thing that happened. She didn't focus on the person that did it.

Speaker 2 She said, isn't it interesting that this thing is causing this much turmoil in you? Yes. What has happened is that something has come up in you that is unhealed.
So thank God this happened. I know.

Speaker 2 This has given you an opportunity to heal.

Speaker 1 Four minutes later, she was just like, eventually Eventually, you're going to say, Thank God for this person.

Speaker 3 It's like the Maya Angelou thing. Like, say thank you right now.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Thank you right now. And at the beginning of that conversation, I was like, fuck this person.

Speaker 1 And at the end, I was like, thank God for this.

Speaker 1 I hadn't done any of the work yet, of course, but I was like, oh, I'm going to have to say, thank God for so-and-so for showing me what I need to work on. And that is why Liz and Alex are the best.

Speaker 2 What about you, Susse? Who do you go to?

Speaker 3 I mean, I think it's an interesting question, too, about advice. Like, I think,

Speaker 3 at least for me, probably 90% of the time that I am

Speaker 3 sharing a problem purportedly for advice, I actually don't, I'm not seeking advice.

Speaker 3 Because I think there's this, there's so many things that we go to people like, I need to share this with you, ostensibly for the idea that people are going to advise us, but really we just want to either share and commiserate over like the betrayal or the bullshit that someone did or just like

Speaker 3 be outraged together or just share this monumental thing that happened to us. But I feel like I rarely

Speaker 3 seek

Speaker 3 actual advice as in counsel, as in like, I'm stuck.

Speaker 3 between these two or three roads which one do you advise me to go down based on what you know about me but obviously you two, also my friend Bonzo, I only go to her when I'm like

Speaker 3 ready, ready, because she isn't going to bullshit. She is going to actually tell me

Speaker 3 what she thinks I should do. And she knows me really well.
And so often if I'm not actually ready to change the thing, I'm not going down that road.

Speaker 2 Yes. She's not the one you call just to confirm your story or to gather witnesses for your own case.

Speaker 3 Yes, exactly. It's like, well, do I actually want to solve this? No.

Speaker 4 Well, then I'm not going to go there.

Speaker 3 Because, and so that's good to have someone like that. And it's also interesting to pay attention to whether you're actually like, do you actually want advice?

Speaker 3 Advice suggests like action and change and movement. And if you're not going to do that, you're just sharing a story.
You're not asking for advice.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's such a good point. Most of us don't want.
That's why it's so important

Speaker 2 to know that about human beings.

Speaker 2 Because I feel like we always jump into advice giving when really, the only time that you should really offer advice is when someone calls your voicemail podcast line and says, do you have advice for me?

Speaker 1 It's like the lying episode.

Speaker 3 It's like when someone says, I want to hear the truth. I mean, most, think of how many relationship stories that people have come to to share a story and you're like,

Speaker 3 he's never going to leave her. Everyone knows he's never going to leave her.
Like, you're not actually asking me what I think. Yeah.
Because

Speaker 3 everyone knows the correct answer to your conundrum, which is you leave his ass or stop doing whatever you're doing. But you're not actually asking me that.

Speaker 3 What you're asking me for is to lend you a listening ear and to actually not say what I think,

Speaker 3 which is what we do most of the time. So I think it's like that lying episode where you kind of create a social contract.
I think my social contract with Bonzo is: you're going to tell me where my

Speaker 3 dysfunction is in this, and you're going to give it back to me. And then you're going to tell me the changes that are going to help to not make that happen again.

Speaker 3 And then John is just the most, for better, for worse, most level

Speaker 3 A-emotional reactor to things.

Speaker 2 ever.

Speaker 3 So it's a very helpful one when I'm like, this person just said this to me. And sometimes I don't know because I am a very emotional reactor to things.

Speaker 3 And I'll be like, is that weird?

Speaker 3 And he will tell me honestly, when he says something's weird or strange, you're like, I'm like, well, wow.

Speaker 1 Okay, now that's really weird.

Speaker 3 Then I am confirmed in my reaction to that being weird.

Speaker 2 I think that's a really helpful, it's helpful when you're a very sensitive person. You have to have that.
I I mean, Abby and I,

Speaker 2 once a day, once a what, we have a thing where we have figured out that just because I am triggered by something doesn't mean anything happened. Right.
And I'm not like being hard on myself.

Speaker 2 I'm saying, like,

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 2 I will ask her, did that feel weird to you?

Speaker 1 Or like whatever.

Speaker 3 Objectively speaking, was that odd? Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Or she'll be like,

Speaker 2 I'll be like, did that, like, even with you, I'll be like, did sister seem stressed?

Speaker 2 And Abby will be like, yeah.

Speaker 2 And I'm like,

Speaker 2 and she's like,

Speaker 2 I don't think it's a problem. But so here's the deal.
We're both with you.

Speaker 2 Is sister stressed?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 For me,

Speaker 2 that's a very upsetting thing.

Speaker 3 With Abby, it's a fact.

Speaker 2 It is new information to me, and something that is so important in my recovery and also unbelievable to me that it is true that in a space, a person can be sad or upset or angry.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 do not have to immediately become sad or upset or angry.

Speaker 2 And I'm not

Speaker 2 there,

Speaker 2 but I can see.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 you can entertain that intellectually and conceptually, right?

Speaker 1 Right. Right.

Speaker 2 So, I don't know what that has to do with advice other than there's some advice for you. You can be in a room with someone

Speaker 2 who's upset, and you can stay how you are. Okay, so should we hear from, do you have anything else to say about advice?

Speaker 1 I just want to make sure that you feel like you, you said who your advice.

Speaker 2 Oh, um, I agree with

Speaker 2 Liz and Alex. Yeah, I was thinking about how funny it is.
Like my people think they're parents. And I was thinking about my mom and advice.

Speaker 2 And my mom is like the worst advice giver ever because she hates everyone I hate. She loves everyone I love.
She thinks everything that I've done is perfect.

Speaker 2 So there's no like otherness to offer.

Speaker 3 That's the commiseration and the validation. Commiserate.

Speaker 1 And you see that too.

Speaker 2 Oh my God, totally. Totally.
And I did think about we have one kid who constantly wants to report trauma and drama, but never wants to fix it.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 No wants no ideas. That is not her purpose.

Speaker 3 That is not what we're doing here. No.

Speaker 2 Right. And so it is a different way of being to listen to someone's pain or problems

Speaker 2 and say, that sounds so hard. Yeah.
And then nothing else. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But I bet more people are like that than we know. Because actually, usually when someone offers me advice, it makes me feel stupid most of the time because I'm like, I know that.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I know what to do.

Speaker 3 Does it make you feel stupid or does it make you feel like you dislike them?

Speaker 2 It makes me feel like they think I'm stupid. Or do you know what I mean? Like, obviously, I know how to solve the problem.
We're doing something else here. Right.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But these are people. These are pod squatters who don't know how to solve their problem.

Speaker 3 Maybe. And so maybe they just, maybe they want to come to us and we can be like, mom, we can be like, diligent rascals.

Speaker 1 I can't believe it.

Speaker 2 And also, don't you have those friends?

Speaker 2 Like when I think about Alex and Liz and telling them stuff, usually when I'm telling them a problem, I'm thinking right now about a problem that I reported to Alex a couple of weeks ago.

Speaker 2 We were on FaceTime. And by the end of me talking, I was already embarrassed because I was already looking at her face, listening to her.

Speaker 3 She's like, I'm waiting for the problem.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I know. No, but I know exactly what my problem is.
I know exactly what to do. I know exactly what she's going to say before she opens her mouth because I have heard myself through Alex's ears.

Speaker 2 And now I know that this is all horseshit.

Speaker 2 She doesn't have to say anything.

Speaker 3 What is that verbal processing?

Speaker 1 Yeah. That's a big thing.

Speaker 3 That's why writing down in journals is so important. That's why having

Speaker 3 people to share our issues with is important because when we are all in our heads, our problems, our frustrations are so incohate, you can't touch them. You can't, they just feel overwhelming.

Speaker 3 So if you're able to verbally process, you are walking through yourself in that.

Speaker 3 And if you're able to write, you are making them more manageable by putting something so amorphous and undealable.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I think you should have a list of people when you want to just get all riled up.

Speaker 2 You have that friend. You know, you have that friend who's just going to hate everyone you hate, be with you, you know, very valuable.
Confirm your case. Like, yes, you're the winner.

Speaker 2 That other person is all the things.

Speaker 2 And then you should have an empathetic person who's just going to be sad and soft for you.

Speaker 2 And then you should have the bonso

Speaker 2 who's like, I assume you're not going to waste my time if we're not going to get to a solution here. Right.

Speaker 3 And like, we're going to sit here and pretend like you haven't done that same horse shit pattern for 30 years. Oh, I'm so surprised.

Speaker 1 That's the trouble of having friends for a long time. You keep bringing back the same shit over and over.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's better to get new ones so you can pretend like you're just discovering this issue.

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Speaker 2 All right, let's hear from our first pod squatter.

Speaker 5 My name is River. My pronouns are they them.
I am someone who can feel alone in a crowd of my family and friends. And I need to feel really seen and known, to feel safe, and also to feel present.

Speaker 5 I'm very sensitive to not having those things, especially right now.

Speaker 5 I recognize that we are all communal and social beings, that's human nature really, but we also live in a very individualistic world.

Speaker 5 I'm currently building a community in my life with people capable of giving me these things,

Speaker 5 but that's not the only people I have in my life. So my question is, how badly do I need to learn to be alone? What is the value of aloneness? Is there value to loneliness?

Speaker 5 And how can I let my community in more when they are present, when they are there for me? Thank you so, so, so much. You are all like my mothers, my sisters, my guardian angels, my teachers.

Speaker 5 thank you for everything i listen to you basically every day for your guidance

Speaker 1 river

Speaker 1 damn river

Speaker 2 well you know i love this question

Speaker 2 we have a kid who was talking to us recently about how they had been surrounded by people so much

Speaker 2 and they love they have a group that is the most beautiful little community of people that I know at their age. It's they love each other.

Speaker 2 they take care of each other, they pull each other intellectually and emotionally. It's really gorgeous community.

Speaker 2 And our kid was starting to feel a little bit lost,

Speaker 2 so they

Speaker 2 carved out more alone time just to go for walks, do all the things. And they were reporting back to me about the results of that.

Speaker 2 And they said, When I am alone is the time that I feel like I exist the most.

Speaker 1 Whoa,

Speaker 2 They can feel themselves existing the most.

Speaker 2 And I feel the same way.

Speaker 2 Okay. So it's like I am

Speaker 1 blue.

Speaker 2 Okay. It's like I'm blue and I can feel my blueness.

Speaker 2 And then when I'm with other people,

Speaker 2 It's like I suddenly turn green. Like I'm mixed with their colors and I just start to feel like disintegrated a little bit.
And I love that feeling.

Speaker 2 Like when you think about being at a concert is like the ultimate experience of that to me. It's like

Speaker 2 you're disappearing. And that is so beautiful.
Like I love to disappear

Speaker 2 with a group, whether it's like us on the couch with our team last night, where it's the five of us and it's like we're a mushy stew

Speaker 2 or at a concert where it's like, you really feel like molecularly you have disappeared, like you are in the collective, you're gone.

Speaker 2 I must have those experiences and I must

Speaker 2 return to blue.

Speaker 2 Like if I don't disappear and exist completely, then I feel

Speaker 2 like I'm not whole. So, River, I think

Speaker 2 is there value to aloneness? Oh my God, it's to some of us, it's when we exist fully. In our culture, we define loneliness as

Speaker 2 being alone. And I am the most lonely when I'm with a group of people and I can't connect with any of them and everything's just talk, talk, talk.

Speaker 2 And I can't see anybody's blueness or greenness or redness. And I can't feel my own blueness because there's so much noise.
And that's when I feel the most lonely.

Speaker 2 When I'm in a space that's not supposed to be disappearing, it's not supposed to be a concert, but I still feel like we're all disappearing, which is is why I don't like a party.

Speaker 2 I mean, I have friends who are married and are

Speaker 2 the most lonely when they're with their partner on a couch and they're together because they feel so unknown by that person and they feel like they're supposed to be known by that person.

Speaker 2 And when you feel like it's supposed to be connection and it's not there, that's really lonely. I know people who hate to be alone and that's loneliness for them.

Speaker 2 So I think loneliness can be so many different things and it's not just aloneness. And if you're asking River, is it important to be alone and to have community?

Speaker 2 Or if that's an either or, I think it's an and both.

Speaker 3 I think it is

Speaker 3 so interesting what you just brought up about the concert, because that togetherness

Speaker 3 is not lonely precisely because

Speaker 3 you are having what feels like dissolving into the same experience together.

Speaker 3 And what River is talking about is that that they have

Speaker 3 the experience of friends and family who they feel

Speaker 3 they are lonely around because they don't share the same,

Speaker 3 I forget how they put it, but like experience of life or same values or whatever.

Speaker 3 And I think this is significant because There was a study out of USC last month, and it's very different research that has ever been been done that is showing the brain processing of people who are lonely and people who are not lonely.

Speaker 3 And this to me blows my mind and makes sense of this kind of self-fulfilling prophecy of loneliness. So

Speaker 3 people

Speaker 3 who

Speaker 3 are not experiencing loneliness have very similar patterns in brain information processing. as other people who do not experience loneliness.

Speaker 3 Okay, so you're not lonely, your brain works a certain certain way.

Speaker 1 You work

Speaker 3 very similarly to other people who are not lonely. If you are lonely,

Speaker 3 your brain processing is very individualized, distinct, idiosyncratic.

Speaker 3 So the brains of lonely people do not look like the brains of not lonely people and also do not look like the brains of other lonely people.

Speaker 3 Your brain just looks very individual, which means that when you feel like you are not experiencing the world in the same way with a shared experience and understanding, you are correct.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 3 And the research is completely unaffected by how many friends you have, how much socialization you do, how many people are around you does not affect your experience of

Speaker 3 your loneliness being the result of a feeling like you do not experience the world in the same way.

Speaker 2 So does that mean that if you're a lonely person, you can't just change your circumstances? It means that you are born a lonely person. Are people who have this lonely brain,

Speaker 1 are they,

Speaker 2 is that why artists are always like, please let me show you or paint you or sing to you or write to you what it's like for me because no one else is sharing this experience. So we're constantly like,

Speaker 1 look,

Speaker 3 because it is an unusual experience that nobody else is having right it's lonely people are lonely people are lonely people are lonely people have ever we're going to get a dog or get another friend well this is what's mind-blowing they haven't done the research yet to show whether it's a cart or a horse thing i see so the question is right if your brain is that idiosyncratic

Speaker 3 do you become lonely

Speaker 3 because you realize by watching the world and being around people that your brain isn't working like all these other people's brains.

Speaker 3 And that makes you feel more lonely.

Speaker 1 Or

Speaker 3 are you just born with a lonely brain? But what is true is that it doesn't matter how many people you surround yourself with,

Speaker 3 you're still going to be having a very distinct experience that is not

Speaker 3 insane as them. And so, in fact, they have found that that actually might be, the research is is still out, but it actually might be a risk factor.

Speaker 3 They say the possibility that being surrounded by people who see the world differently from oneself may be a risk factor for loneliness.

Speaker 3 So not only that just adding those people to your mix doesn't make it better, it might make it worse.

Speaker 3 So if you're blue, and blue and blue and you're surrounding, you're saying, I'm so blue, I need to surround myself with more other colors. If half of those people people who are not lonely are all red

Speaker 3 and the other half are lonely, but they're not blue, they're teal and yellow and purple and orange.

Speaker 2 So let me just put this into a visual so that the pod squatters can visualize with me.

Speaker 2 So like what sister is saying is the people studied loneliness and they're like, all right, we've got these hundred people who are saying they're lonely.

Speaker 2 So we're going to put them in a room and study them and figure out, do they have a dog? Do they have enough

Speaker 2 friends? Do they have enough family? And then what what they found out was, oh, they all have different amounts of those. The thing they have in common is they all have an idiosyncratic brain.

Speaker 2 So their brain is what they have in common, not any circumstances that we define as loneliness.

Speaker 3 Well, for the record, I don't know that they looked at dogs and families and whatever.

Speaker 1 Well, I look at the brain.

Speaker 2 You assume that they would look at circumstances also.

Speaker 3 Well, it was just MRI imaging. So basically, they looked at, let's say they looked at 100 brains on MRIs.
They said, okay, 50% of these people are lonely, 50% are not.

Speaker 3 What's wild to us is that the 50% that are not lonely, their brains look very similar to one another.

Speaker 3 Then they looked at the other 50% who are lonely and they're like, Lord, have mercy. These people are all over the map.

Speaker 3 Their brains don't look like each other and they also don't look like the people who are not lonely.

Speaker 1 I mean, talk about perpetuating loneliness. Exactly.
Exactly.

Speaker 2 So then what we need is a different word.

Speaker 2 Then the word lonely,

Speaker 2 it just has such a negative connotation and it makes us feel like the thing we're experiencing is that we need more people around us. So what we need is a different word.

Speaker 2 If what we're saying is lonely means your brain works differently than everybody else and that makes you feel isolated, then we just need a different word from that. Like, how do you feel?

Speaker 2 idiosyncratic again.

Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 How do I feel like I am not neither seen nor understood nor experience the world the same way as others? Exactly.

Speaker 2 How do you feel? But not lonely. Yeah.
Like I feel like nobody fucking gets me still, or I'm having a different experience than everyone else's. What's the word for that?

Speaker 3 Yes. And I think that that is super helpful because then even people who are not lonely people,

Speaker 3 maybe their brains work like all these other 50%. Congratulations, you're lucky.
They still could have periods of that. Like, what is this?

Speaker 3 icky feeling when I'm with these three people and this thing happens and I appear to be the only one that experiences it in this weird way. And so that is loneliness, right?

Speaker 3 It's like I am alone in this feeling and this experience and this understanding of what's happening.

Speaker 3 And so River already nailed it because they have identified for themselves what's already the issue. It's not the lack of people around them.

Speaker 3 It's the having a connection with those who experience the world in the same way and to have similar reactions. And I think that's why that is so coveted.

Speaker 3 That's why when we find those people, we rarely let them go because they are fucking rare.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Rare.

Speaker 2 And that's why maybe we don't need a lot of them. Maybe we just keep it tight.

Speaker 1 Keep it.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Wow.
That's so interesting. Just reframing what loneliness is.

Speaker 2 That's the biggest difference between my first marriage and my second marriage. I was so freaking lonely in my first marriage because I constantly felt like we were having different experiences.

Speaker 2 We would be in the same room. Something would happen with a kid, with a life, whatever, something would happen in the world.

Speaker 2 And I understood that we were having completely different experiences. I felt so lonely.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And that's the biggest difference now in my marriage is there's lots of things, but that's very rarely happening. We are having similar experiences.

Speaker 2 I can trust, I can look at Abby and be like, yeah, she knows exactly what's happening with me, what just happened with the kid. That's the opposite of loneliness to me.

Speaker 3 And many people don't have that with their partners, but if you have that with someone.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and at a concert, that's what you're saying. Yeah.
It's the same experience.

Speaker 2 If I'm at a concert, I'm watching Brandi Carlisle and Catherine singing, and my heart is like busting open with joy at their love and their community and their lives.

Speaker 2 That is what everyone around me is thinking.

Speaker 3 Yes, that is why you dissolve into them because it is an indistinction.

Speaker 3 It is not the distinction of having a different experience. So if you're at a party, party,

Speaker 3 you know, you're not having the same experience.

Speaker 2 Nobody's.

Speaker 3 And so that is why you're lonely at a party. That is why you're not lonely.

Speaker 2 at a concert. And that's why what I really want at a party is for everyone to ask one person a question.

Speaker 2 Like I love at a dinner when you do one,

Speaker 2 let's have one question that everybody answers. That's because everybody then is having the same experience.
We're looking at the person all together, collectively. We're all focused on one thing.

Speaker 2 We're all having the same experience.

Speaker 1 And that's really interesting because I wouldn't consider myself an overly lonely person.

Speaker 1 And so I'm not as concerned with needing to have the same experience because it's not as important to me because I don't. think of myself or I wouldn't consider myself a lonely person.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 going to small talk cocktail hour, though I'm not having any cocktails, doesn't bother me because I don't care if I'm having a different experience than other people.

Speaker 3 Or you're on the 50%

Speaker 3 where your brain works similarly to others. Right.
And so you have never picked up on the clues throughout your life that you are experiencing the world vastly differently than everyone else.

Speaker 1 And so you don't. So that's less lonely.
There's no, there's no like,

Speaker 3 you don't have, yes, you don't have the automatic presumption

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 you understand the world differently. So you don't have that craving that needs to be met because

Speaker 3 it's possible. And so you look around, you're like, 50% of this party is experiencing the same way as I do.

Speaker 3 And maybe you have that kind of understanding of the universe.

Speaker 2 So River, in short.

Speaker 3 In short, you are blue.

Speaker 1 We try to join every time, like voicemails, and we get through like once.

Speaker 2 I know. And I feel like people,

Speaker 2 they leave us messages hoping for an answer, and we return to them 50,000 more questions and much more confusion.

Speaker 1 I'm very sorry.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 2 let's try to give River an in short. Okay.
In sum, River,

Speaker 2 it is possible that it's not that you just haven't found the right

Speaker 2 conglomeration of circumstances or people.

Speaker 2 It is possible that you just have an idiosyncratic brain, a different sort of brain. And so, what we could do do is not label that as a yearning, but just a difference.

Speaker 2 And that it is possible that you

Speaker 2 will feel best in experiences where there is

Speaker 2 a decided shared experience, like a concert, and with the very few people you will find throughout your life who you feel like see you and know you and you share a common understanding with.

Speaker 3 And that there's not anything wrong with you that you feel lonely in groups of people where you get the feeling that you experience things differently than them. That is actually

Speaker 1 correct. Yeah.

Speaker 3 It is not your moral failing or emotional failing or theirs or theirs that you are in this group and feel lonely.

Speaker 2 And maybe go for art.

Speaker 2 Art is where we express our little idiosyncratic worlds and say, someone, please look and tell me if you're.

Speaker 3 I am blue.

Speaker 2 I am blue.

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Speaker 2 Okay, God help the next one. Let's hear from Emily.

Speaker 5 My name is Emily. I have a situation with my boyfriend.
He is a wonderful guy. He's very loving.
He's very sweet.

Speaker 5 He comes from a very abusive background. And so because of that, physical touch is very complicated for him.

Speaker 5 And so

Speaker 5 our our sex life isn't that great. Our physical tax life isn't very,

Speaker 5 isn't what I need it to be.

Speaker 5 But I want to respect his needs and respect his boundaries.

Speaker 5 The issue is

Speaker 5 he

Speaker 5 is able to be physically affectionate with our dog.

Speaker 5 He is able to shower this dog with all of the love and affection that I wish I could have.

Speaker 5 And I never thought I'd be in a relationship where I felt jealous of a dog.

Speaker 5 So I don't know. I don't know if you have any advice or

Speaker 5 if you've ever been jealous of a dog, but that's my question. What do you do when you're jealous of a dog?

Speaker 5 And you love yourself.

Speaker 2 Emily.

Speaker 2 First of all, I'm so sorry for you and your partner. That's so much.
The reverberations of abuse are just so

Speaker 2 stunning.

Speaker 2 Just how far it goes, how many relationships it touches, like

Speaker 2 ripples from a stone, like how many generations, how many, it's just

Speaker 2 amazing

Speaker 2 the pain and the destruction that abuse.

Speaker 2 continues.

Speaker 2 I'm so sorry. The dog thing, it's interesting.
I'm thinking about

Speaker 2 how when I was in therapy in my first marriage,

Speaker 2 when we were in healing from one of many things,

Speaker 2 the therapist used to insist

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 we try

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 cuddle and touch each other in a way where there was absolute clear boundaries around nothing going further than snuggling.

Speaker 2 And the thing about dogs is that they don't,

Speaker 2 it's uncomplicated. Like there's nothing that's going to be pushed.
There's no moment that like

Speaker 2 energy is going to switch and it's going to become sexual. There's no like

Speaker 2 power dynamic. It's so simple.

Speaker 2 That's just something that came to my mind. Like, I wonder if there were times where you could snuggle like dogs, where there was like

Speaker 2 a boundary around it, where you both agreed that the rule was it wasn't going past the snuggle,

Speaker 2 that that could

Speaker 2 make both people feel safe. I don't know, that's the only idea that I have about

Speaker 1 the dog love.

Speaker 2 What are you thinking?

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 3 understand Emily's boyfriend.

Speaker 3 It is much

Speaker 3 easier for me to show affection, like unbridled,

Speaker 3 just

Speaker 3 joyful abandon of affection

Speaker 1 to

Speaker 3 my dog

Speaker 3 than my partner.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I get that.

Speaker 3 I actually wonder sometimes if it's like

Speaker 2 a thing.

Speaker 3 Like I, you know, if it's noticed.

Speaker 2 Oh, if it's yours. I'm sure it's noticed.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I think it's exactly right because

Speaker 3 it's uncomplicated. And I think it's like at a deeper level,

Speaker 3 it is about

Speaker 3 self-love.

Speaker 3 I think it's possible because when you think about it, when you

Speaker 3 introduce the idea of people,

Speaker 3 it's like, is the other person

Speaker 3 worth it?

Speaker 3 Is the other person deserve it? Is there like, what is the scorecard today? What will it lead to? Do I have to like work out anything before I show this love?

Speaker 3 The memory is so long with people and the memory is so long in relationships that, but a dog's,

Speaker 3 there's no memory.

Speaker 1 It's also so vulnerable.

Speaker 3 It's almost like you would have to show that much

Speaker 3 acceptance acceptance and joyful reveling in yourself to be able to share that with another human. But whereas a dog is a different species,

Speaker 3 it's like, of course they deserve that. They don't have any of this human valuability or complications or whatever.
I don't have to project on them.

Speaker 3 any of my confusion about myself. Yes.
Whereas with partners, you not only have your issues in your relationship, you also are projecting on them all of the things about yourself. Yes.

Speaker 3 And all of the judgments and all of the, you know, they did this study where they had like a fake news story and it was the victim in this story was

Speaker 3 attacked and they had bones broken. Okay.
And they changed who the victim was in every, and it was an adult human, a child,

Speaker 3 an adult dog, and a puppy. And then they analyzed the levels of sympathy and empathy that the people had based on hearing the story.

Speaker 3 The levels were the exact same for child, adult dog, puppy.

Speaker 3 High levels of empathy. They did adult person,

Speaker 3 low levels of empathy. Wow.
The exact same outcome, the exact same situation.

Speaker 3 And why is that?

Speaker 2 Because we've been, we've all been hurt by so many humans.

Speaker 3 We've been hurt by so many humans, and we see our own selves

Speaker 3 as not worthy of empathy and sympathy. We see our own selves as not worthy of the kind of reckless, joyful love that is unconditional that we see as a dog worthy.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 so I actually think it makes total sense. It's shockingly awful for Emily's experience.
It's shockingly awful for her partner to not see

Speaker 3 themselves as either the recipient or the giver of that kind of abandon.

Speaker 3 And also, logically, it makes total sense to me. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Damn.

Speaker 2 I mean, Emily, I will say that

Speaker 2 I sense at the end of your question a little bit of like, is this okay or weird for me to be jealous of a dog?

Speaker 2 I'm going to tell you, Emily, that I have had moments in my marriage with Abby where I'm jealous of her dinner.

Speaker 2 I'm jealous of her

Speaker 2 food

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 1 she

Speaker 2 gets excited about food

Speaker 2 in a way that, like, first of all, the way Abby gets excited about food is so wonderful.

Speaker 3 That's true, but not like on the human spectrum. Right.

Speaker 2 But in terms, she's like a food person. I've been jealous of ice cream.
I've been jealous of steak. I've been jealous.
So dogs to me are like, yeah, that makes perfect sense. It's a good line.

Speaker 2 But it's funny, but connected, right?

Speaker 2 It's like when you see your person finding, when i see abby i'm like oh that's how you used to desire me it's how you desire that cupcake right literally said it to me a few times oh i have i've said it out loud oh okay um you used to make that noise for me that you're making for that cold stove exactly

Speaker 2 that's exactly right right um and so yes it makes perfect sense to me that you would feel like that is the way you're loving and being comforted by the dog is how i wish you were being loved and comforted by me and vice versa i think it makes perfect sense i mean not for nothing my first marriage too the dog was a big yeah

Speaker 3 i realized at the close of that marriage that

Speaker 3 the dog

Speaker 3 was the wife

Speaker 3 that my ex-husband needed yeah like

Speaker 3 no memory

Speaker 3 all devotion,

Speaker 3 no counting of any pains and costs. I mean, he would go away for six months at a time, walk to the door.
I would be standing there harboring the hurt and pain and

Speaker 3 counted costs of all the losses in those six months. The dog would be just as fucking happy as if he had gone to the grocery store.
Oh, damn. And that's what he needed.

Speaker 2 And think about Emily's partner where Emily is asking her partner to like engage and probably do the work to recover from abuse and like doing all these these hard things and the dog's like i don't need any of that from you i just think there's a lot of things that i've been thinking i just think it's so beautiful and

Speaker 1 vulnerable for emily to call and tell us this you know to like admit that she's jealous of her dog like yes to that yeah

Speaker 1 i also think that it's got to feel even

Speaker 1 more difficult in moments because it's like, don't you trust me? Right. Like Emily is feeling like, why can't you just trust me? I'm not that.

Speaker 1 There's just so many layers to this that we don't know about. And so to me, it's, it's just therapy.
It's like,

Speaker 1 I hope that he could hear this and to hear like how much you love him and to hear how important this is to you and to maybe want to do a little bit of work.

Speaker 1 And I also think that she, Emily, you have to explore

Speaker 1 that,

Speaker 1 because even though we might have ideas and desires, and yes, we want to honor those as much as possible.

Speaker 1 When you are in a partnership, those desires have limits in some ways because somebody else is a part of this equation. And though that is beautiful in many ways, it's also really difficult.

Speaker 1 And so, I don't know, I just think communicating this with your partner is like the number one step. Like, not in a judgment way.

Speaker 1 So, not not like you used to look at me like you look at that brownie not like that would be better yeah to do it not in that way yeah um i would be more cool i would be more open to a conversation if it didn't have that um attached to the front part of the sentence totally got it um

Speaker 1 but i think that there's so much opportunity here like

Speaker 1 It could be interesting to grow your relationship and build your relationship in different ways that might not have much to do with physical touch right now but that it could promote that down the road and in the future i don't know it makes me excited of course here i am being excited and and also i would just say absolutely emily like i was in my first marriage very jealous of the dog like he would come back in town he would pick up the dog

Speaker 3 before he'd come see me Like actually, that was the order of priority. So

Speaker 3 I completely understand that. And to the extent you feel any embarrassment about that, like I have absolutely been there.

Speaker 3 And also

Speaker 3 two things is that like the dog might seem like it's a barrier right now to your affection, but it also might be the road.

Speaker 3 Like if he can only do that with the dog right now, it is at least a a stepping stone towards the ability to show affection, the ability to allow himself to do that.

Speaker 3 And I'm not saying you should stick around for this to work out. Maybe you shouldn't.

Speaker 3 Honestly, if you are not getting your needs met, Emily, I bless you to go get your needs met somewhere else because you might never get them met here.

Speaker 3 I wasn't in my first marriage, and that was a really good decision to not be there anymore.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 maybe.

Speaker 3 This is a step on that road. And also, it isn't about whether that person deems you worthy of the kind of affection they can give the dog.
It's whether that person

Speaker 3 deems themself worthy to give and receive that kind of love with another human. Yes, that's it.

Speaker 1 That's good.

Speaker 2 That's right.

Speaker 2 Oh my goodness. I think that we should every once in a while do these.
And I just love hearing about these people

Speaker 3 out there being so brave every day.

Speaker 2 Yeah, River and Emily, thank you so much.

Speaker 3 River runs through it.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much. Probably not the first time they heard that.

Speaker 2 I knew that was coming.

Speaker 3 I restrained myself for like 20 minutes.

Speaker 2 Pod Squad, we do not have any answers.

Speaker 2 But we know a couple things. And one is that there is nothing wrong with you.
Not a damn thing.

Speaker 2 And that life is really hard. And it's not hard because you're doing it wrong.
It's just hard because it was designed that way.

Speaker 2 And the cool thing about life being hard is that it forces us to need each other.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it's probably one of the reasons why you're listening to this podcast. So, thank you for that.
Thank you for being the community that we rely on to get through this thing,

Speaker 2 this hard life.

Speaker 2 We love you. We will continue to do hard things together.
And we will see you back here next week.

Speaker 1 Bye.

Speaker 2 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Speaker 2 Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

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Speaker 2 We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and this show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.