Natasha Rothwell: The Third Doyle Sister?!

Hi, Pod Squad.

It's me.

And I'm sitting here trying to decide how the hell to tell you about what's about to happen in the next hour.

I think what I want to say to you is that

we finally have one of my favorite actors here, Natasha Rothwell.

I love watching her act so much because she wakes me up in a way that every time she comes on the screen, my soul goes, Oh, hello.

And

okay.

Was it not the most magical conversation you've ever had?

Like, I don't even know.

I don't know how to, she's about to, to, to, in her embodied, gorgeous, wise, illuminating way,

show you how not only to survive this time, but to absolutely stay alive and thrive during this time.

Just

you're welcome.

Here's Natasha Rothwell.

Amanda, tell them for anyone who possibly doesn't know who Natasha Rothwell is.

Natasha Rothwell is the creator, executive producer, and star of the critically acclaimed Hulu series How to Die Alone, which she conceived and came up with

by herself and stars in.

That is currently streaming.

She's also recently earned her second Emmy nomination for

her role as Belinda Lindsay.

You know, the white lotus.

She is also known for her work on HBO's Insecure, and she has her own production company, Big Hattie Productions, which she uses to create and produce all kinds of beautiful art for

the purpose of championing marginalized voices in subversive ways.

She is,

she is subtly

and

beautifully and elegantly subversive.

Yes!

It's like you're being subversive and you're so damn cute about it.

And she may be, she may have called herself the third Doyle sister.

So just,

y'all just,

here we go.

I just have to tell you, we have so deeply been looking forward to this time with you because you for me, whether it was Insecure or White Lotus or How to Die Alone, it just, you are someone, when you come on screen, I just, my, there's certain writers in my life when I first open a book and I read their words, I kind of wake up.

Oh.

And I really, when you come on screen of anything, I just,

I, I don't know if it's like a serious presence that you have or it's just all talent or if it's a God thing or what, but you just really are constantly radiating something that wakes people up.

Thank you.

That means everything.

I feel so seen.

No, that means everything.

And like I said before, like

back and forth from the

How to Die alone writer's room, you guys were

like, yeah, brought me into every morning and I tell everyone.

And I have a little, I do, I vision board because I'm that girl and I have a we can do hard things little

cut out on my vision board.

It's just true.

The love is real.

It's real.

Wow.

Okay.

Well, that's all I need for this week.

And it's a freaking week, Matasha.

Yam!

This week has been a year.

My God.

That's why I'm happy to be here.

This is like, this is a warm hug.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you must know that over the years, as I really just tried to figure out what was going on with you on screen, I started to like read a lot about you.

So I would watch all your interviews or read your things to try to figure out what you know.

But it was like one of those, I'll have what she's having situations.

So I try to find out what you're having.

And what I've done, what we've done for this time together is we've just grabbed a few little things that you've said.

And we want to read them to you.

And then we want to, they're just little, little things.

Because I feel like you are actually a philosopher.

I mean, I know you are, that you are kind of a philosopher.

And the way you talk about the big questions of life in your art and in interviews is, I just want that for the pod squad.

I want them to just hear you talk about things.

Okay.

So the first one, which I have memorized, I don't even have to look at my notes.

Is something you said in an interview a long time ago when I knew that we were soulmates.

And you said the thing that confused you the most

was to hear Ariel from The Little Mermaid say, I want to be where the people are.

And you said, I do not want

to be where the people are.

There's nothing I want less.

I do not want to be where the people.

I want to be where the people aren't.

I want to be in the underground bunker.

I want to be away far up in a tree.

Yeah.

Yes.

Where do you, if you had to finish that line, I want to be where the

laughter is.

I want to be where the, the, the, the, the, um,

the nervous system regulation is.

I want to be,

I want to be where the rest is.

I want to be where the cortisol is is zero.

That's where I want to be.

Yeah.

So America.

That's good.

America.

Tick, tick, tick.

Yes.

Yeah, I was thinking, I want to be where the couches are.

I want to be the pajamas, the edibles.

Like, yes.

Yes.

Yes, yes, yes.

So, so do you, for the pod squad, are you an introvert?

Describe how you find peace and joy and connection if it's not in other people.

The thing is, is I do.

But I understand at my big age that there is a cost for engagement, and I have to pay it.

I don't know how to half-ass like connection or even conversation.

So, if I'm out at an event and there's a line of, you know, complete strangers, I will be with them and talk to them and give of myself in that moment.

I don't know how to reserve that energy.

So, I just know that after those exchanges, which light me up and give me purpose, I feel incredibly depleted.

And I love to recharge solo with my dogs, just being with myself.

And I do, you know, engage in social media, but that's a way where I can control the output and input of that energy.

And more so just turn off and be entertained.

But I've just learned that of myself.

And I think for a long time, I would get frustrated that I couldn't just, you know, bounce back so quickly, or I would bounce back quickly at a cost.

You know, it's just like insomnia or whatever else.

But yeah,

I definitely am an introvert in that sense.

When I'm out, I'm out, but when I'm in, I need to be in in order to be out again.

Are there certain kinds of people?

This is what my daughter and I were talking about the other night.

Is there a certain type of person that you can be around that is recharging to you?

Absolutely.

And are there certain types of people that you know are not, are going to drain you faster?

And usually

those people in my life like i i i can put them in those buckets of just like

can i be around this person

and sometimes it's not even that they are additive to my energy they just are it's neutralized like there's no expenditure so i can just recharge myself and know that there's no kind of social familial fraternal obligation to like

ask how someone's day you know like something as small as just like hey how are you sometimes i just don't care.

Sometimes I'm like, I generally, I don't care if you're okay, right?

I just can't ask you that question.

So

it's definitely helpful for me to know who in my life and how much energy they cost.

And so there's some friends, some family that are expensive.

And so I have to save up for them.

And then there's some friends that do pour into me.

But I do think just because I'm so

wired to be anxious and stressful and care about other people so much that even the ones that are attempting to pour into me, I'm like, oh my God, you must be exhausted.

Do you need something to drink?

How about a seat?

You know, like it is compulsive.

Like, I don't know how to not

reciprocate in the moment and just receive that.

So,

yeah, did I mention I'm single?

I wonder.

Hmm.

There's something there.

Ooh, that's interesting.

Because as you were talking, I was thinking, I'm, um,

first of all, would people be surprised who when they're around you?

Like, if you're at a party, would they, would they leave and be like, Natasha is an extrovert?

Like, is it, is it, are you one of those that presents?

Because that's how I am.

I, I, everyone would think I was an extrovert, but I'm like debilitated after it.

And then I have to recover.

So is that true of you?

Yeah.

I feel like some people wouldn't know, but I do think as I've gotten older and more accustomed to advocating for my needs, I will sometimes announce like,

you know, my battery is running low.

I'm going to head out or like whatever.

But like in the moment, I enjoy, like, I enjoy people.

I enjoy like hosting and like making sure everyone's good and taking care of people and

laughing and having a good time.

But I, I,

I feel like there was definitely years, even decades of my life where people were just like, that extrovert, Natasha, is just a hoot.

And I'd be at home rocking in the shower, fully clothed.

Like, what did I give away?

Yeah.

Yeah.

My idea of myself is that I love.

taking care of people's needs and being around people.

Like my best imagining of myself is surrounded by people.

They're all over my house.

They're at my table near my couch.

But like, every once in a while when I try it, I just hate it and want everyone to leave right away.

I'm just, I,

I go in thinking Florence Nightingale.

And then I get there and I'm like, Kathy Bates in misery.

I'm like, I'm like,

one of us will die in order for this to end well.

Because I do think like the, it is like whatever the saying is, the, the, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Like my body is just like, I just can't.

And I

have really, really been trying to honor that limit.

Like when I come up against that boundary and not

push through it, you know, like there's this idea of martyrdom that I grew up with, just because my, you know, grew up in the church.

And so it's just like, if it hurts me, it must be great, you know?

And it's not ever.

So yeah, I'm getting used to

backing myself when I bump up against the end of the battery.

Do you believe that?

Because we were raised Catholic and by a football class.

So it was like Jesus on the cross and then additionally like keep your head down and hustle and no pain, no gain, no guts, no glory.

All of the things.

So double whammy football and Catholic.

Hail Mary's all the way.

Hail Mary's all the point.

Do you believe that suffering is necessary?

Like, is that, do you think that's all bullshit?

And if not, how do you know what's the right kind of heart and what's the wrong kind of heart?

That's an incredible question.

I don't think

self-imposed suffering is necessary.

I think that suffering is

built into

life as we know it.

And so I think

understanding your own suffering,

I think, is a catalyst for empathy because you can recognize it in other people.

But I think so much of the ideology of the church that I grew up in, and it's, you know, it wasn't football on the other side, but it was black church.

And it's just like, you think you had it hard, kind of like idea.

Where it's just like, no, I guess I must go live harder lives, you know, like again.

But yeah, I think that there was this idea of this self-sacrifice being so noble and worthy.

And

I think

I saw it through several generations of matriarchs in my family, especially.

And

I think I'm so grateful

that

my siblings' generation, like we put a stop to that sort of cyclical

self

flagellation of just like, you know, that isn't

what makes us, I think,

worthy.

And I think sort of the insidious subtext of that kind of

martyrdom is:

I have to earn whatever grace or rest that I need in this moment.

I have to sort of log the hours of self-sacrifice and then I can earn rest.

And I thought that for the longest time, you know, even still, I super struggle with days off because I'm like, I need to be productive.

And it's taken a while for me to

internalize that rest is productive and that, you know, it's not something to be earned.

It's, it's a grace that we need to give to ourselves.

Yeah.

And it's the point.

Like, I don't like when we talk about rest as it's the thing we do so that we can get back to work.

You know, it's like, no, I think we just work a little bit so we can get back to work.

Yes.

Yes.

Right.

That is truly the dream, truly the dream.

I was talking to someone the other day and they're like, you know, what are your goals for the next five years?

And I was like, a vacation, you know, like, and I heard myself say it and I was like, that's not right.

You know, like, I shouldn't be putting rest or a break or a pause and kicking that can down the line.

It's, it's something that I could have today.

And it's just having,

yeah, the courage to do it.

Cause I do think it's so internalized.

It's like muscle memory, that like martyrdom and that kind of like work ethic of being like such a workhorse.

But I'm getting, I mean, 20 plus years of therapy.

I'm, I'm, I'm clawing my way out of that.

Yeah.

It's beautiful too, because it is muscle memory, because even the

like vacation, it's like, okay, that is a defined space of time in which we have all agreed you are authorized to enjoy yourself.

And so we understand that, but I think it's really hard,

even when moments of ease are theoretically available, not to feel discomfort in them because of the talk track that's like, oh boy, it's been five minutes and what are you doing?

You should be doing this.

Like,

have you been able to rework that muscle memory so you can actually experience the ease instead of like

having that internal struggle all the time?

Yeah, I think for me, the...

The struggle will always be there, right?

And for me, therapy is just being able to recognize my thoughts more quickly over time.

And

I've gotten really good at recognizing when that tape starts and is telling me that like, you, if you sit and take this rest or if you just, you know,

turn on the TV and just like go and let it go, like you're not worthy.

Cause it's deeply tied to worthiness, I think, especially for those that have, you know, gone through the church of just like having that sacrifice.

And so I'll hear that tape start and then I challenge those thoughts because I think, you know, feelings aren't fact.

And for a long time, I confused that.

And so like, if I was feeling like I wasn't worthy or like didn't deserve this time off, that was the fact and that was the the truth.

And I had to sort of pay sweat equity in order to earn rest.

And so I'm better at challenging that muscle memory and those

thoughts when they play.

And it gets quieter, right?

Like the tape isn't loud.

You know, it was super loud when I was younger and it's still playing, but it's a little softer and I can drown it out with, you know, Beyonce.

So like, there are ways

that'll do it, right?

There's worthiness there.

So yeah.

Yeah.

It's weird.

It's like a great trick of capitalism to take these like things that are birthrights.

Like there's only a few birthrights.

Like we should be able to rest.

We should be able to eat.

Yeah.

We should be

and to take them away and then trick us into thinking, I mean, it sounds like a version of diet culture, the way we're talking about rest.

Like you have to earn your

food.

It's the commodification of like wellness and rest.

And like the insidious part is the same system is making us sick

do you know what I mean so it's just like the arsonist firefighter of just like let me make your you spin out about how you're not enough then here's things that you can do to make yourself enough but just kidding it'll never be enough and then you're back on the on the wheel it's exhausting Well, it's the same with sex, too.

You have to earn your sex.

You have your birthrights.

No, but like when you're talking about your birthrights of your own ease and rest and food and sexuality, and then we come and get all these messages are like, okay, well, here's the following 400 rules in which the sex will be okay, which screws up the sex for the rest of your life.

That's crazy.

And I think it's just like the, there's, there's a benefactor at the end of this.

I think in the same way we think about capitalism and other ways that it expresses itself, like just follow the money.

You know what I mean?

It's just like, there's so many people profiting off of our dis-ease.

And I think that for me, it's been this slow, deliberate

pause I've been trying to insert in my, not just thinking when, you know, the tape starting starts to play, but just even checking in on, is this actually

the medicine I need right now?

Or is it actually poisoning me?

You know, like, and.

It's, it's, yeah, it's, it's wildly nuanced, but I think that slowing down in all of the ways is one way to sort of catch those moments where you're getting caught up in that, that pull of capitalism to determine if you're hot enough, if you're sexy enough, if you're smart enough, all of the enoughness.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you think, I want to know what kind of rest you have found that is actually restorative to you?

Because I think one of the trickiest things, and I can only, I'm speaking from my experience right now, is that

what we've been trained to do now is that when we're feeling depleted or we can't do it anymore or whatever, we go on our phone.

And for me, I was just thinking about last night, like I was in a pretty okay mood because I had been through the day of in America, which I'd already done all the highs and lows and I was trying to do my breathing and I was in the bathtub taking my minute and then I started scrolling.

Now.

It's not just the doom scrolling.

For me, it's the, I can feel okay about myself.

I can feel like I did enough.

I'm okay.

I'm, gosh darn it.

People like me and I have done my best.

But then I get on the phone and Natasha,

immediately I feel like, oh my God, I didn't, I'm not doing enough.

Those people are getting all the things.

I'm not

relevant.

Like all the like

immediately zero to 60.

So it's like the thing that we're using to restore ourselves is actually what you described as as more poison.

That That is, what is actually helpful to you?

It's different.

It's different all the time, but there's some things that are consistent and they're not

revolutionary.

Crosswording.

I love it.

I do the New York Times crossword every day.

It's so nerdy.

Every answer that I get right is a little dopamine hit.

I can hyper-fixate on it.

I do get on my phone, and what I

feel like whatever alien is running TikTok,

like

it's curated to like cookie decorating.

Like I'm watching like all of those videos.

I'm watching like, you know,

Korean campers put up tents that are like, like very bespoke.

And like,

it is just like so random and strange, but it's just like I can get into like someone watching glass bottles fall down the stairs.

And I'm like, yeah.

And so part of it is giving myself permission to

use

social media to pacify me, but not just incite me, which it does.

And so I've tried to, like, for instance, on my TikTok, I don't follow, and I follow three things.

I follow my nephew, I follow Reese Tisa, and I follow my show, How to Die Alone.

But I don't follow people.

So my curation is really based on what I'm stopping to view.

And it's very like Legos, love it.

So that's one way.

I also, I enjoy being in water, bath.

I like just like,

and you know what?

I'm just going to say it, edibles.

And here's why.

I

was not acquainted with the medicinal effects of THC until I came to California, where it's just like, you know, everywhere.

And as someone who is neurodivergent and my mind,

the speed with which it can go it like would put sonic to shame

the to take an edible doesn't reduce me to like you know being incoherent it allows me just to have a little bit of quiet so to have that and sit and do a crossword puzzle delightful i also i bought some lego sets so i've been doing that um inspired by tick tock so

there is maybe a capitalistic bent to that rest but um

yeah sponsored this interview sponsored by Legos.

But yeah, Natasha, did you say you don't follow people?

I think you may have, you said that very briefly, but I think you may have solved only on TikTok social media.

Okay.

On TikTok, it's just those, those three.

My nephew texted me.

He's like, oh, Tasha, could you follow me?

I was like, I got you.

I was like, I got you, boo-boo.

So.

And I also have a social media manager that curates my posts.

I don't even post.

Like anything that's posted is her.

I I just turn it on like TV and I'm like, I wonder what cookies are in season.

Are the Halloween cookies up?

Let's watch some ghost cookies be made.

Yeah.

Okay.

So now I'm starting to wonder if this is part of the sunshine that comes out of you.

Do you not read anything about you?

Like if your social media person is posting about you, do you not read the comments?

No.

I don't read like the

Instagram will alert me if a friend has commented.

And so I can engage and they're usually like, you know, saying what something wonderful.

But when it comes to sort of like, I am not in the comments like that.

No, I just like, I also, I think for me,

I know

I'm already predisposed to think negatively about myself.

So I'm just like, I don't need no gas on the fire.

So like for me, I'm hunting for, I'm like, who liked it?

You know, like,

I'm like looking for the positivity.

And more often than not, it's there, you know.

Yeah.

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You mentioned your neurodivergence.

Can you talk to us about this?

When did this come to you as a fact?

Yeah.

And how has it affected you and what is it?

It came to me as a fact

a year ago, a little over a year ago.

I have known my whole life that

I got different factory settings than my siblings and my peers.

And

there was a lot of thought put into

things that my siblings and peers didn't.

And I was just very hyper-aware of, you know, I have extremely good pattern recognition, which also is

an offshoot of that neurodivergence.

And so I would be able to pick up quickly and sense changes and respond and, you know, react.

And

what brought me to it actually was TikTok.

I was scrolling and there was a lot of people, you know, being late diagnosed ADHD.

And mind you, at this point, I was already diagnosed and medicated for anxiety and depression.

which come to find out a lot of people with ADHD have that.

And so there was a lot of clues, but I leaned in when I was seeing so much of my experience being shown on TikTok.

And so

last summer, I went and saw a neuropsychologist here in California who was wonderful.

And I did, you know, the whole eight-hour battery of tests to sort of figure it out.

And she was just like, Yeah, you got raging, ADHD girl.

I was like, really, huh?

And I just remember crying because it was just like,

it's like it has, it has a name.

And with that name comes comes a community, and with that name comes understanding.

And

I've always been very just kind of insatiably curious about myself because I was always trying to figure out why I was different.

And so, this kind of discovery of ADHD, and I was not on the autism spectrum or official autism diagnosis, but I do have a lot of autistic traits, which she was just like a lot of the overlap between ADHD and autism.

That's sort of where you're living.

And so

being able to know that about myself,

I

went from

being ashamed of my inability to

run the same race as everyone else to being

an advocate for my needs.

As I mentioned earlier, like it was one of those things where something as small as

my auditory processing as a part of ADHD.

I can miss a lot of things because I'm thinking about a lot of things.

And so if I'm on set and a director is giving me verbal instructions,

in the past, I would just like have anxiety and hope I got it.

And now I'm like,

you know, now I'm just like,

can I, can I see the note?

Like, can I, cause I, my visual sort of.

you know, processing, it'll stick faster.

Or can you repeat that?

Or feel free to stop me if I got it wrong and not have shame when that happens.

And so

it's like little tiny things like that, where I was just like, I'm slowly unmasking all the ways I have been masking my whole life.

So it's been, it's been revolutionary.

Was there

grief in knowing for your past self that didn't know?

I, yeah, I cried a lot last summer about it, like truly, because I was always

in, I did really well academically.

I was in all the AP classes, advanced classes, and gifted classes.

And I busted my ass.

And I remember

just the effort that it took for me to keep pace.

Because I knew I was smart, but it was just like, it's taking me a lot to

meet

the demands of these classes and the rigor.

And had I had the diagnosis, then I would have had more time for tests.

I would have had accommodations and

had a lot more grace with myself.

And I think that,

yeah,

it definitely had a grieving process of

forgiving myself for not,

you guys are trying to make me cry.

Forgiving myself for not

knowing, you know, as much as there was no way I i could have or perhaps there was but i just didn't and so there's just um

it's been it's been healing in that way of just like saying it's okay you did the best you could you know

is there any other side of it besides forgiveness that feels like

like you forgive yourself is there any side that's like also wow like i did all that yeah without even with a different set of wiring or as you said is there any like holy shit, way to go, kid?

Yeah, absolutely.

It feels very much like that was me running with a parachute.

Holy shit.

Like,

that

was

also understanding that it is a superpower to

think like I do.

And one of the craziest parts of the process that was really illuminating, it wasn't even the diagnosis.

One of the tests,

it's

talks about processing speed.

And it takes, you get like three weird symbols on one side, and then you have a row of other weird symbols.

And you're timed and you have to identify if those three symbols are in that cluster of weird symbols.

And I do that portion of the test during this eight hour day.

And

after I finished that one, the neuropsych was just like, were you always this fast?

And of course, my immediate thought just from

i was like oh my god did i do it wrong like what like oh my god it was like fast and wrong like what and she goes natasha i've done this for 20 years and i've only graded this test up to page four and she was like you're up to page 10.

i was like so what does that mean like i thought something literally was just like so what do i have like what is that

what do i have you have yeah she's just like no you're just she's like your brain just works incredibly fast and so a lot of the stuff you miss is because you just have to remind yourself to slow down a little bit.

So, it's a superpower.

So, it's like one of those things where it was just like, I'm very aware that it is a privilege to be able to,

you know,

get help and

go to a neuropsych, but there's so many free resources available for people who are inquisitive about the way their mind works or have a sense that, you know, there's something special about them.

And I think, you know, hopefully we can post that when this, when this airs.

And absolutely.

Yeah.

So people can get started on that journey.

Humor me by, I must hear Natasha Rothwell talk about God.

Okay.

And I'm going to start in any way you feel like it.

I always feel like it's just almost like a,

for me, it changes every single day how I think and talk about God.

But

you said theater.

is a playground where I could do or be or explore all the things that weren't permitted in church.

What?

It's such a big question.

And like you,

I am discovering

so many ways and so many different ways how God is expressed in my everyday life.

I grew up in the church and, you know, I use black church as an adjective, like it's kind of um

you know, it's black church, and um,

there's a strong sense of right and wrong and permissibility, and um,

and there's a lot of denial of self in that, and

um

conforming.

And

I felt for me when I found theater, it was being able to

have quote-unquote permission to

see what I actually thought and through the lens of a character, which for me was my sort of workaround on being able to like.

cuss and like, you know, well, I'm doing a play and I can do that and I can say shit because it's not me, you know, like

very,

very,

very rudimentary thinking.

But I loved theater for that reason.

It was a way to escape.

It was a way to project myself onto a protagonist.

That's why I love film.

And

I think it was what I was meant to be doing with my life.

Like, I do, to speak of spirituality, I do think I have been called in this life to be a storyteller and to uplift storytellers and to center marginalized voices.

I feel that calling very strongly.

And I think for me, my relationship to God has changed over time.

You know, I think when I was super young in my teens, I was really desperately trying

to

protect

and hold on to the version of God that my parents was, you know, they believed in and held on to.

And I just remember having this, you know, really

interesting.

kind of radicalized moment in college.

We had done Angels in America and I'd I'd gone home and I'm, and my father and I, like, we, we don't argue, but we discuss, like we have very intense discussions.

And

I just went in on, you know,

the,

and I, I want, I, I don't think all Christians are this way, but many

have very

harmful, dangerous views on sexuality

that

I was just, I had been radicalized by Angels in America.

And I just remember having this very deep conversation with my dad.

And

that was kind of like, the God I believe in wants to love and protect and support and honor the LGBTQIA community.

That's the God I'm choosing to believe in.

So I was like, okay.

there's this separation of

ideology that made me really curious about, well, if I'm going to find God for myself and understand

God for myself,

I'm not going to renovate the house.

I'm going from ground up.

You know, I want to, I want to really know and believe

what I think and not just regurgitate what I'd been taught my whole life.

And

it has been a beautiful, wonderful exploration of that.

I still consider myself, you know, a woman of faith, but my God is so big and so loving and so inclusive.

And

that is,

I think, what

devastates me about

the God of the right.

Let's just call, let's call it out.

You know what I mean?

Where it is this weaponized,

anachronistic version of a white man that we're all

like

being

subjugated to, you know, and so,

but that's not the God I know.

So it's so crazy

to be living in this time where people who are purporting to

believe in the beauty of what love is, and I do believe God is love,

and yet they behave with such malice and such

vitriol and

create so much harm.

It's just that, like, my, it's hard to reconcile that.

And,

but I remain steadfast.

I think that for me,

Yeah, it's just that that's that's the God I believe in.

Yeah,

I just thought of the title of this is for sure, but I remain steadfast.

Remain steadfast.

I freaking love that.

Yeah,

that's beautiful.

When do you feel closest to God?

I feel closest to God

often when I'm

improvising, if I'm being honest.

Like that is a state of flow where I just feel super connected into something

greater.

Um, when I sing, um, I wouldn't call myself a singer, but I love to sing.

I love to karaoke, but like, even in the car, like, there's something

very

visceral

just hearing my sound and my chest vibrate.

That like feels, I feel like I'm tapped into something bigger, even if it is shaka con, you know what I'm saying?

So, like, it's especially,

especially if it's shaka.

But yeah, I also think that

I've been flirting.

I've flirted with meditation over the years.

And

I remember doing, I did this silent retreat.

I'm going to do it again.

It's this Buddhist silent retreat.

No tech.

It's very scary.

It's wild.

But I think in nature, when I look at the ocean, when I'm, you know, with trees, when I'm like a good laugh, God is there.

You know what I mean?

Like the kind where it's just like the mouths are open and you hear no noise because you're just laughing so hard.

I'm like,

yeah, that to me,

yeah, I feel God everywhere in those moments.

Yeah, they don't have to be.

I think I grew up and there was this sort of,

you know, there was a protocol, you only, God's in church.

And it was just like, it's so weird.

I'm like, so no, that motherfucker's not just in church.

He's everywhere.

It's

going back to the beginning of the conversation.

It's another trick like capitalism.

It's like this thing that's your birthright.

We are packaging up, taking away from you, and then selling back to you.

It's a little bit like the mafia.

It really is.

Like, we don't even know we have a problem.

We think we're fine and in love on the earth.

Someone knocks on our door and says, actually, there's a hell.

You're going to hell.

You're going to hell.

Here's the thing.

Get ready for them to my place and I will protect you.

It's very lonely.

It's wild.

It's wild.

And I think the moment moment that, you know,

I found God for myself,

the immediacy of that relationship compared to what it was before feels even more potent because it's like, oh, I don't have to like put on my church stockings and my, you know, little shoes, my Mary Jane's that hurt my feet and like go into church and there, you know, there's God.

It's like,

no.

When I was like, I had a panic attack at the Glad Awards

and God was there.

Do you know what I mean?

Like the immediacy of that, of just like, oh yeah, if I have a moment of anxiety or if I have, you know,

someone dear to me is in pain or trouble, if I need to call on that or like summon that relationship and really feel like I am

trusting and believing in something bigger than myself

that relationship is so internal and it's so present and it's so real.

And it's just devoid of all of the

ceremony of religion.

And I think that's the thing.

Like, I think religion and the performative aspects around a very

sweet and beautiful relationship is sort of what I'm glad to have, you know, shed.

What is it about

creativity?

Because when you're talking about

when you're doing improv, you are connecting with

a creativity that taps into something bigger, which I just heard you say when you're talking about being outside in nature or being like,

what is the part of being creative that has a through line

through nature and God and laughing and that allows you to tap?

I think there's

it's kind of a it is

communing with something bigger than me and listening that happens in improv you're listening to those instincts and to

um

you know very famously you know ucb new york their tagline is don't think you know and obviously the idea there is to take yourself out of

you know, don't insert yourself in with the communication

between

something bigger and what's happening in the moment and just consider yourself the conduit and trusting that.

And I think that what that communication is, that's not for me to to decide.

You know, I just need to be an open and a willing vessel.

And

I've been lucky enough to use my

my instrument for comedy.

And, you know, there's a scripture that says, you know, laughter does the heart good like a medicine, you know, and I do think there's a medicinal quality to laughter, especially, you know,

digesture limply to the world, like, especially given all of the craziness that is going on.

It's cathartic to laugh.

It's a communal thing.

And so I love that.

And I love, you know, using it, you know, dramatically and making people cry and feel things and see themselves and have that recognition.

I feel like all of that is holy, right?

So there's this like,

I think it's just like, it's not one specific

thing.

I think it's being open and listening

and allowing yourself to be used.

And

that is, that is, that is my church.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, that's what makes sense to me as someone of faith.

And

yeah, it's, it's, it's,

it's why I've been put here.

So

I'm semi-obsessed with Jesus, not like more guns, less gays,

but like Palestinian activists.

That's right.

This is right.

Actually, I just have to tell you guys this.

I just thought of this one second ago.

So I was in a congressman's office a couple of weeks ago.

just with a bunch of Palestinian activists actually

begging him to sign Block the Bombs, right?

His name's David Min.

I was going to say, are we not going to name him?

Are we definitely going to name him?

And

one of my friends, Mohammed, showed David Minn pictures.

He's a doctor.

He's gone back and forth.

So he was showing the congressman pictures of

the babies that he had been trying to heal.

And the bombs are bombs that had blown up these babies' bodies.

And he was showing the pictures.

And the congressman kind of

looked and then he said, You know, I have gone to my Episcopalian priest to talk to him about what I should do about this.

And then he went on to say he needed to pick his battles and whatever.

But I kept thinking, There, like, Jesus was an activist

who was crucified for asking for a more beautiful and true world

from

the land of Palestine.

You are ignoring the seven Jesuses around you.

Yeah.

We are

Christian nationalists are constantly crucifying Palestinian activists who are begging for a true and more beautiful world in the name of a Palestinian activist who was crucified for begging for a true and more beautiful world.

The irony, it's unbelievable

how individuals who purport to be followers of Jesus and his teachings and the teaching of the church do not recognize in this moment with Palestine

the opportunity to show up and walk the walk and to do the work that he set out to do.

And

it boggles my mind that

there are people in these positions to actually help and affect change.

And they're so afraid of actually

moving in a way

that would lose them votes or lose them money.

And like, they're all these things.

And they're putting that above what they're saying is the most important thing.

It's so,

it's just truly fucked.

And it, it is,

yeah.

I, it, it, I, I wish I could get to a place where it's not a constant shock and awe campaign every time I hear it.

But every time I'm just like, like, how?

How can you even sit in a service on Sunday

and not recognize the opportunity for you to actually make the world a better place?

It's, it's,

yeah.

I think that's what I mean when I say, like, for me,

God is a relationship, not the religion, because I do think there's such,

yeah, there's such theater in, let me go talk to my, my priest, let me go do that.

And like, there's just

miss me with that, miss me, like, be so fucking for real.

Do something.

Actually, like, do something.

Did you ask the priest, what would Jesus do?

Why don't you just ask Jesus?

Because there's seven of them at your table right now.

Exactly.

Jesus is here.

He's right here.

Right here.

News at 11.

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Do you also think that there's something Jesus-y about acting?

Because I do.

I just

hear me out for a second.

The whole story.

Oh, oh, I can't hear you.

Oh, can you hear me?

She dropped, she got so excited about her acting

that she dropped her thing.

I thought God silenced me, which happens sometimes.

I just want to say how much I love this conversation.

Like, this is very rarely do I get to talk about my faith, And oftentimes, because of that can be misconstrued as, like you said, guns, God, gays, kind of Christian.

But like, you're so fucking for real right now.

I love it.

This is my, I love this.

So what's your story?

Sorry.

Well, just hear me out.

So the whole story is like spirit, collective consciousness being incarnated into a body.

Like ghost like shloop here here in a body, in a different body.

And that's what actors do.

Like when you're talking about improv as

spirituality, I can't help but make the connection to you are

ghosting, you are

incarnating a different body and bringing your spirit to it.

And doesn't, isn't that the practice of empathy?

And then everybody in the audience is doing a lesser version of vacating their own self and now living in your shoes.

And so it's kind of a collective consciousness spreading of empathy for all of us which is very

god to jesus information that's church that's church that's the church i want to be a part of you know what i mean like

there is something so

powerful

in theater

and

That I've done shows where I don't even remember the like I'm like everyone's like you did great I I was like, I don't remember.

Like, because you're so tapped into, like you said, that collective consciousness, that collective spirit.

And in your transformation, you're giving permission to the audience to transform and you're all having this collective religious experience.

Do you know what I mean?

I did.

And it's like, sure, let's call it wicked, but like,

we all went somewhere.

Do you know what I mean?

Yes.

We all went somewhere.

I feel that way when I see like an amazing like band play and they're, you you know, and they jam and I'm out of my body and they're out of their body.

There's something so

holy and spiritual about that exchange.

And like you said, it is that empathy of

that transactional empathy where I'm giving into the story that I've been given.

I'm taking that on and I'm letting go of myself.

And audiences, like you said, they let go of themselves.

And we can just all be in this space where higher consciousness is communicating to all of us something valuable.

And I think that's why I don't care how long I do this, I will always do live theater.

Like there's something so

like television and film have an amazing way to do that, but it's just, you can't replicate that exact kind of church feeling when you're, yeah, a good show and good music, all of that.

It's transformative.

Is it the presence?

Is it the, is it the, because before you were talking about like the urgency of the relationship and the, the, the immediacy and the presence.

And there's something that is

in a world where like we look out at the world and we see things.

And then 90% of the world is telling us we don't see those things.

That that's the thing that we see happening is not happening.

And then you get in a space where you're having an undeniable, immediate, present experience

that is so, it's life-affirming because you're like,

there's one thing happening here.

Yeah, it is powerful to

experience

emotion collectively.

Collective grieving, collective laughter, collective, you know, sorrow.

And it's like you said, it's like everyone has agreed to

the rules.

You know, the phones are off.

We're all watching the same thing.

It may touch us in many different ways, but we're not denying that this happened.

And the thing, too, that's special about live theater is that that exact play

and the way it was communicated that night will never happen again.

And that to me is like,

how often in life now do we have those

unique, undeniable moments where it's just like if you weren't there you weren't there and i think that is power like that is that is

i don't know pass the offering plate that's my church yeah they should pass offering plates in the theater yeah oh they would make so much this is a good idea idea i think i've stumbled upon something

you always do

Wow.

I freaking love that.

That's why it's like, it's not extra.

It's not, I'm just begging the world to not abandon the arts right now because it can feel like, well, we have to keep putting out fires.

And so that's extra.

And it's not extra.

It's like

the only thing that's real and collective.

And it's the only place we're not living in an algorithm.

That's right.

It is, it is pure in that respect.

And I think that, yeah, it, you know, everything going away with the PBS funding and arts in general, I think it's, it's

what

helps me,

because there can be this idea, right?

And especially for what I do, that like, how is this helping, right?

We've all had those sort of existential crises where it's just like, yep, how, like, this is like, I'm working on this script and I was just like, this semicolon doesn't matter, like, what's going on?

But then it's like, like, it's being reminded, like, oh no, this is a part of

the synthesizing art and getting it out there to help people in the same way that we're talking about.

And so there is such a need for it now more than ever.

You know, we see this with, you know, the artistry in the live theater of Colbert and Kimmel.

Like the administration understands the power that happens when you create these

moments of collective, you know, catharsis and spirituality.

Like that's potent and they recognize that.

So

yeah, it's it's a scary time, but I think that for me, it's just a signal to double down for sure.

It is and it's a good clue.

Like if you're somebody who can't figure out what's important about life or being human, you must just look at what fascists go after.

If you want to know what's important.

Right.

Watch what they go after and double down on that now.

Because they know

what brings life.

Like, yeah.

History.

Yeah.

empathy

accounts truthful accounts of things that happened is the is the first thing they go after that's why they're stripping they want to the all the museums that's why they're critical race theory that's why it's it's because if what you're saying is the like

it's those things that you're talking about it it's expressing yourself it's like the the the power is the expression of yourself in whatever form it is.

And

if folks can't express themselves creatively, comedically,

historically, scholarly, like sexually, then sexually, then the only expressions that are occurring are the expressions of authority.

Yeah.

of sanctioned authority.

And so it's anything that is self-expressive is so spiritual and is also so dangerous.

Yeah.

They can't commodify individuality.

If we're all the same, if we're all limited in the same way, then they can figure out how to make money off of our compliance.

And if we remain individualistic, if we remain autonomous, that's dangerous to them because

it's reminding them that they do not have the power we do.

So it's very,

I mean, it's a very good plan, you know?

It's It's a very good plan.

They've tried it before, you know?

And so

I think that's why for me,

I will always

use my platform

to draw attention to

exactly this and to continue to

use the, I mean, it is.

The kabuki theater of the Hollywood entertainment industry.

To me, the only way I can make sense of it is like every carpet I'm on, I'm talking about those causes and things that matter to me.

I'm going to continue to, you know, use my megaphone to remind us that we are autonomous, that we have a choice, that we don't, we're not complying in advance.

We are going to fight

for

our right to exist and to be happy.

And

it is going to be a fight, but

I ain't tired.

I'm ready.

Okay, that's another title.

I ain't tired.

What does matter to you today?

Like, I know I have

studied you over the years well enough to know that there's a lot of things that matter to you.

So that's why I'm asking just now: what's most on your heart and mind in this moment?

My heart is heavy.

There's so much.

I think, I mean, we spoke about Palestine and

the horrors being perpetrated there.

That is kind of constantly on my mind.

I think also what has happened to Jimmy Kimmel

is

very scary.

And

as someone

in the creative and performing arts, as someone who

will always speak truth to power,

this really felt like

the canary in the coal mine is that bitch dead.

You know what I mean?

Like, that's how it felt.

And

I think in times like these, it's

it can be really

devastating because it's just like, well, what can't, I can't, I can't go higher and back.

back.

Like, what can I do?

And I kind of always circled, you know, three things.

It's, you know, do what you can, if you can, when you can.

And

if that's tweeting in opposition, if that's boycotting, if that's sending a letter of love to him and his family, of support,

if it's speaking out, you know, at the dinner table, and

there's always something to be done.

And so, I think in these times, I try to remind myself of what agency I have.

But, yeah, I think the

very obvious,

they didn't even try, like, it's so, it's so out in the open, you know what I mean?

It's like so out in the open of their attack on

free speech.

It's, it's

unpaul, an unapologetic attack on free speech.

And so, for me, it's,

we have to

use that weapon of speech to combat it.

And

yeah, I think that would be

on my heart.

I think the connection between Palestine and then all the way to Jimmy is interesting because had we paid attention to the actual canaries in the coal mine, which were the kiddos who were organizing and the Palestinian activists here who were organizing, but everybody was cool with them being rounded up.

They were the canary in the coal mine for us.

For sure.

We didn't pay attention because it, and now you go very quickly from that to all the way to a very powerful man on TV.

Yeah.

So for a straight cis white man who is a multi-millionaire on TV to be targeted and

hurt.

Look in the rear view.

There are a lot of bodies

that don't look like that that paved the way.

That could have been opportunities to change the course.

And so,

yeah, it's

many, many, many dead canaries on that road for sure.

But my hope is that we don't suffer anymore.

You know, like we need to,

it's time to act now.

Yeah, it's past time.

Yep.

And lastly, I just want to say this.

We know the trouble.

We know the trouble.

But circling to art and to what keeps us alive, not as an extra thing we're doing, but as we're dipping into every damn day to remember what makes life worth fighting for.

You know, that, oh God, you guys, I'm thinking right now of who it is.

I'll look it up.

But that the man who was

such a gay activist when the AIDS crisis was hitting, and he said, We bury our friends in the morning,

we march in the afternoon.

Okay, i'm gonna start crying and we dance at night

that trifecta

we grieve we work

we dance we dance

has to be the way has to be the way

all of them we can't ignore any of them or we will not have because the dancing is what reminds us that that all of this is worth working for and grieving for yeah

So to get to the dance, what, is there any art recently, Natasha, that just surprised you, whether it's a book or or a show or a poem or anything that felt especially delightful or healing to you?

First of all, I want to say that is,

that is

going,

I'm getting that shit on a pillow today.

That is,

whoo!

Grieve,

fight, dance.

That is,

that's real.

And I will say,

in

to

the dance being what we're fighting for,

to me, it's such a giant fuck you

to

those that wish to oppress and silence us that

you will not take my joy.

You will not take my

my joy.

And

a little joy for me,

part of my neurodivergence, just to bring it all together.

Hyperfixation has been a theme in my life.

And so it could be a meal that I'll just truly have every single day or a song that I'll just listen to on repeat to the point that Spotify sends in help.

You know,

they're like, this is, this is too much.

And

for me, that song, there's this amazing London artist, Olivia Dean, and she has this song, Man I Need.

and it's like a boppy kind of like fun

song that it is just it just lights me up and I'll have it on repeat I'll like scream sing it in the car.

I'll have it on all the time.

My poor dogs are just like she's not okay.

And I'm like, no, it'll be all right.

But yeah, it was just nice to, I've been a fan of hers for a long time.

And this song was just kind of like a happy, hopeful kind of like,

yeah.

So that was, that's been bringing me a little bit of joy.

That's what I needed.

Thank you.

Just needed something to Google today.

What about you?

What are you both, what is the, your, what is your dance right now?

What is lifting you up?

What is my dance?

I mean, my baby girl is coming home for, as like an unexpected visit from her first year of college tonight.

Yay!

Yes.

And so my entire family is going to be trapped with me for a couple of days.

And I, Abby and I promised each other

that we swore to each other that for Saturday and Sunday, we would turn off our phones and

not react just for two days.

And I'm so excited for that, Natasha.

I love that so much.

Amanda, do you have anything?

My current lifeline, my current lifeline is

Padrig O'Toom.

He is

an Irish

writer.

You can't describe him.

He is a poet

and a

theologian and a memoirist, and he's queer.

And he, he, like, he,

I'm obsessed with Ireland and Irish politics and all the things.

He brings like

all of my favorite things

into one

story where he calls it narrative theology.

So he is telling the story.

This most recent book is called In the Shelter.

It's from this Irish proverb that it's in the shelter of each other that the people live.

And it,

he is telling the story of his faith through

growing up as a queer Irish kid during the troubles who wanted to

be a priest who

and then like telling the whole story of

the divisions of Ireland and the British Empire's oppression and colonialism, and but all through like this gorgeous prose.

And so I have

listened to his book literally three times in a row.

As soon as I stop it, I just start it again because it's just

feeding me and comforting me in this way that I like

scratching a brain itch of just like all the things that light you up

yes yeah I love that

and the Irish accent before we go also

oh the Irish accent I mean forget it forget it it's a really good thing he's getting right to you like to Dublin We go to Dublin Wego

the cliffs of more of you

exactly We love it.

Natasha, my final question, and then I really will let you go is,

will you be our best friend?

Yes!

I've been waiting for this moment for so long.

I'm serious.

I

have been lit up by this conversation.

I think it just, it's why I was such a fan of the show.

You guys were so thoughtful and you're so my people.

You're so like,

you think about the world in the same way I do.

And it is just a dream to be on.

It's, you are so lovely, so wonderful.

Yeah, I want to be the third Doyle sister.

So she's saying she'll hyper-fixed our title.

That's all.

We want to have been there.

I want to say I've been there.

Oh, no, you guys are so everything.

Everything.

Thank you, Natasha.

Please, if you ever want or need or any, if you just.

We're here and we're so grateful for you existing in the world.

Tell Abby to add me to her New York Times puzzler friend list.

I don't know what that is, but I will tell her.

It's yeah, I love it.

I love it.

She'll know.

Pod squad, we love you.

Go forth and grieve, work,

dance.

Dance.

See you next time.

Bye.

Oh my God, I love you so much.

I love you so much.

You guys, that was everything I dreamed of times 20.

We did all the things.

We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media.

We make art for humans who want to stay human.

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