INDIGO GIRLS AND MELISSA ETHERIDGE!!

Across four decades, 16 studio albums, and over 15 million records sold, the Grammy-winning Indigo Girls,

Emily Saylors, and Amy Ray continue to blaze the trail for generations of queer artists in the mainstream.

Committed and uncompromising activists, Saylors and Ray work on issues like racial justice and reproductive rights, immigration reform, LGBTQ advocacy, education, death penalty reform, and Native American rights.

Indigo Girls was the first of six consecutive gold and or platinum certified albums.

Their latest record, Look Long, is a stirring and eclectic collection of songs that finds the duo reunited in the studio with their strongest backing band to date.

Melissa Etheridge stormed onto the American rock scene in 1988 with the release of her critically acclaimed, self-titled debut album.

Etheridge hit her commercial and artistic stride with her fourth album, Yes I Am.

The collection featured the massive hits Everyone on Earth Knows, I'm the Only One, and Come to My Window.

And that album brought home the Grammy Award for the best female rock performance.

Known for her confessional lyrics and raspy, smoky vocals, Etheridge has remained one of America's favorite female singers for more than two decades.

In June of 2020, Etheridge launched the Etheridge Foundation to support groundbreaking scientific research into effective new treatments for opioid use disorder.

We have them both here today.

It's freaking so exciting.

We went to their show last night and P.S., Yes, we are tour.

The Melissa, I mean, the Indigo Girls and Melissa Etheridge together.

So good.

And then they were just here.

They were just, they were just here.

Enjoy.

So Amy and our

I'll speak for us both, but a little bit like bulls in china shops when we meet people that we're excited about.

Oh, I love you.

Oh, I mean, I'm sorry.

Yeah, they run away.

Yeah.

They're like, whoa, those two.

I know how that goes because right now my heart is.

Are you checking your rest?

Are you checking your room?

This morning on the way.

She's giving you a monitor.

The important thing is that we remain calm.

So that's what I'm doing.

The royal week.

Means me.

Yes.

It means us.

You look so calm and things.

Completely calm.

Look, she's always calm.

If reincarnation is real, I just want to come back as this.

Oh, this nervous system, this.

Yeah, she doesn't get worse.

You can't be a professional sports player without being that.

That's right.

That's what it takes.

Training.

Did you get nervous before games?

It's different, isn't it?

People say, do we get nervous?

And nervous and excitement is very much the same thing.

It's the same exact thing.

Physiologically, the physiological response is the exact same between nerves and excitement.

And so the way that

psychologically, an athlete thinks about it, like when the commentator said, are you excited?

Or are you nervous?

They're like, no, I'm excited.

Excited, yes.

It's the exact same thing.

Yeah.

So it's like, I didn't know that.

But if you say to yourself, you're excited, it makes you less nervous.

I mean, like, that's what they say, but that's bullshit.

I mean, I'm always excited about everything in life, but I get nervous for certain shows, and I just have a a case of the nerves and I'll miss chords for the first three songs or something.

Like LA makes us nervous.

LA.

Oh my God.

LA is so hard to play.

Really?

You did a great show last night.

Yeah.

But see, the Greek has massive spotlights.

They're just huge.

And you really can't see most of the audience.

All you can see is the

crazy front row, which are usually just crazy people, which I love my front row.

They're great, but they're just crazy people.

And

all I could see was the lit up exits.

So I could see people leaving.

And I'm like, do not look at the people leaving.

Just play the shit.

So LA is just a real mind trip because I've spent years here.

I came here 40 years ago and spent years dreaming and hoping.

So you get on stage and I've got just got this past of, oh my God, you've always wanted to be, you know, and then everyone's leaving.

And I'm like, no, no, no.

This is just a mind trip.

They just had to pee.

Yeah, right.

Exactly.

Exactly.

That's

so much so.

But that's a real

mind trip.

It's a good mind trick, though, because in every situation, we can either focus on the people who are leaving.

Or the ones who are leaving.

Or the people.

But you can have thousands of people like, I love you, I worship you.

And you're like, some guy's leaving.

Oh, no.

Okay.

My wife used to, my wife's a very interesting woman.

She used to, in the 80s, she drove a limo and she drove Liza Minelli.

No way.

Totally.

And she used to say that one time when Liza Minelli played Carnegie Hall, that, you know, the place is going wild and stuff like this.

And she said, yeah, but there's that one guy in back that didn't stand up.

And then later, she sees the guy going out in a wheelchair and she's like, fuck, I'm not sure.

I just, you know, yeah, I gave away all my power to

my assumption that this person didn't like me.

And those assumptions are what can really hurt us.

Our dear friend Andrea Gibson, who just passed, always lived.

They used to say that their wellness check in every moment was, am I paying attention to who isn't loving me or who I love?

Like in every moment, you can tell how well you are by what you're focused on, the not or the is.

That's all your power.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know why it's so hard to remember that

or live by it.

I know.

I guess it wasn't for them, but.

Well, I think it's been set into us from the time when we were little.

I mean, when you stand,

there's a saying in the sports world that if you stand in front of a group of female little girl athletes and you say one of you was was out there not working as hard as i know that you needed to be every single girl psychologically thinks the coach is talking about them and you go in the exact same locker room to a male speak to a predominant a male team and every kid in that locker room thinks they're talking about somebody else so there's something that psychologically happens when we're young, I think, that kind of predisposes us to believe that, oh, we are not wanted.

So we're looking for the people leaving the stadium or going and hitting the exits.

And if you're queer, there's all that

history mixed into it.

Yeah.

Like, I don't know if you feel that way, Melissa.

I'm very queer.

Oh, yeah.

Please don't ruin our lives by saying you no longer feel so

take that.

No, no, no.

No,

you can be definitely sure that that's never changing.

But

it's a bit of a trauma, you know?

Yeah.

Just that the old language, the old voices.

But I also grew up.

I had a really great father figure, really great.

He was a high school coach, but my relationship with my mother was really contentious.

She was having a hard time.

She was like a hidden figure, sort of computer scientist that didn't get the credit, got paid half of it.

So she was kind of a bitter woman.

But I didn't understand all that at the time.

I just thought she didn't like me because we always think it's about us.

But my father was really great.

And I think that maybe that sort of male

role model in my life, I wasn't afraid of guys, you know, and it really helped in my business because it was all guys.

And, you know, so I think that might be a part of it.

I don't know.

That's interesting.

Yeah, that is.

What about you guys and men?

There's the key of life.

That's like something you would have needed to ask yesterday so we have time to think about it.

Or no, I'm just kidding.

In terms of men in my life, like I love all my brothers-in-law.

I'm married to my sisters.

sisters and my parents stayed married until my mom passed and my dad is a wonderful human and so I've had a lot of good men in my life

and then in terms of you know like

in terms of the spectrum like I find men extremely attractive

so yeah sometimes I'm like around a certain man or whatever and I'm like hmm Am I gay?

And then, but I know I am.

I know I am.

But so, but I have a very, very like vehement vitriolic opposition to men who are toxic or take up too much space.

Like, I just can't.

And then in those moments, I'm like, I just want to be around women all the time because

I don't experience that in the company of like-spirited women.

So, so you feel this attraction towards men?

Is it for the sake of like sexual attraction or is it part of gender

questioning?

Because I have similar things.

I think men's bodies are beautiful.

And I also think, obviously, women's bodies are beautiful, but it's in a way that I want to be it.

It's in a way that I feel like envy, like broad shoulders, muscles, ripped abs.

I was a pro athlete, never had abs.

Like, fuck.

No, I don't want to be it.

You don't want to be it women.

Got it.

Got it.

Got it.

Got it.

Got it.

Got it.

Cool.

Yeah, cool.

That's interesting, though.

This came up a conversation with Amy where I wrote this song when I was feeling sort of a wistfulness because I love country music and all the, we may have talked about this before, where the songs were heteronormative and I couldn't find my place in it.

But you had said, Amy, like younger, you were just the guy in your mind.

I mean, I don't want to put words in how I would describe it, but so I never could do that.

I was like, I don't fit in this.

But Amy didn't have a problem.

Yeah.

It's interesting because we, for me growing up,

I felt this

need, not only internally, but externally, that I had to put myself in a certain box.

So when Glenn and I met, it was actually really interesting because

we were friends and she was like, I think maybe I might be a little queer.

And I was like, oh, like we should take the Kinsey test.

You go online.

And

that was your response.

You were scared.

I was scared.

I was terrified.

You all, I was in a hotel room in Mennonite country.

And there was a

sampler that said,

fear the Lord in all things.

And then I've got Abby on the phone, and I was an evangelical Sunday school teacher.

So I'm fearing the Lord with my sampler, and then Abby's trying to make me gay.

I'm not trying to make you gay.

And I sent you a song.

You guys might wait till you get away from the side.

Did you guys send a song?

What song?

What song?

Drive.

Drive by the song.

And I was like, oh my God, I'm so gay.

That's very graphic.

That is a great song.

I love that you sent that.

Yeah.

I was like, let me know what you think.

And she was like, oh, shit, that worked.

Was that how you flirted with her?

Yeah, for sure.

Send her a song?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

See, the songs are very powerful.

They can be.

Yeah.

The reason why we're doing this in person right now is because when I found out that you all were in town, I lost my mind and said, please tell them that we'd like them to come to our in-home studio.

And then a little too late, Abby reminded me that we don't in fact have an in-home studio.

That's so cute.

It's like we have a basement.

Yeah.

So here we are in our in-home studio that we created for you all.

So

we want to ask you all about creativity and songwriting and like where does it come from at first?

Like are you sitting in your house and you're like

a song starts bubbling up inside of you?

Is it a lyric?

Is it a melody, which I'm not sure what a melody is.

It's the harmony and the melody.

How does it begin?

How do you win a game?

It's hard to describe.

It's something you like really want to do, first of all.

I mean, I know when I was 10 years old and I grew up in the 60s and 70s, so I was in the middle of the singer-songwriter.

You know, it was Dylan and Joni Mitchell and these, you know, Paul Simon and these great singer-songwriters.

And I was just surrounded by music.

My parents listened to music.

They didn't play music, but they listened to it a lot.

And my sister listened to the, you know, Led Zeppelin, the Rolling Stones.

My parents had mamas and papas.

And it's just a really great mix of music.

And the radio station, I grew up in Kansas, and the radio station played everything.

One radio station played everything, Tammy Wynette to Marvin Gaye and to Tommy James and the Shondells.

It was just this great mix of music.

So I thought music was just music.

You know, it was everything.

And I wanted to be part of that.

And then you start drawing that to you.

And first you're copying.

You're copying songs.

You know, I was 11 and I didn't have experience.

You broke my heart.

I did not have a broken heart yet.

And you mimic it until,

you know, your early 20s, you really start having experiences.

Then you study it and you study the greats and, you know, Ricky Lee Jones.

Why do these words, you know, why did she use those words?

And you get into that.

So now,

after we've done it for

40 years, 50 years, you know, higher.

Yeah, you know, fucking a long time.

That's so amazing.

I collect as I go through my day, I collect things that inspire me.

Because if I want to be inspiring, I have to be inspired.

So I find it in art.

I find it in books, movies,

other music, poetry.

I love, I get a lot from poetry.

And you're like, oh, why did that touch me?

And then I look at that.

And then I think about, okay, what do I want to say now?

And now that I've lived so much life, it's rich with things that have happened, things that I want, the desires and pains.

And so I can mind from that.

I have on my phone, I've just got huge notes, just lines, just, you know, someone will say something.

I'm like, oh, that sounds good.

You know, that's cool.

Or I'll think something.

Or you just then give yourself time.

In my 20s, before I had kids, I was like, you know, writing all day long on my bed, you know, like,

now I have to say, okay, from 10 to 2, mama's writing, leave me alone.

That sort of thing.

You got to make the time.

You know, it's changed over the years.

But how does it come?

It's a connection with a stream

of

consciousness, really, that's going by that you

get from.

And sometimes you get really lucky and you go, wow, thank you.

And sometimes someone else gets that line.

You're like, oh, there it is.

I don't want to go buy it.

Yeah, that's it.

And you hear it going on.

Yeah, I've done that.

I'm like, I thought of that and didn't do anything with it.

How about melodically?

Have you ever ripped off a song and didn't realize?

I'm constantly worried that, no, I've changed songs.

I've gone, oh, God, that was inspired by this.

Yeah.

You know, and you can't help it.

There's only eight notes.

So you're like,

did, did, did I make that up or is that like a really famous song that I just really like?

I don't know.

Yeah.

yeah.

What about you guys?

Where does creativity come from for you?

I think for me, like I was born into a musical family.

So my dad's a pianist and he wrote sacred music and my mom played piano and we always sang together as a family.

So, you know, whatever genetically might contribute to that was certainly in my line.

But like I came into the world, okay, I was born breach.

That was back when they let you be born breach.

Born breach, came in like bowlegged,

red-headed, recessive gene sensitivity queen, like fuck up.

And so.

Great description.

I'm leaving a new limbo shirt from last night.

You had to arrived in limbo.

I am a cross.

I feel like my name's Emily and I don't know, but I have big feelings.

So when I discovered guitar at nine years old, and then that became my vehicle.

And so really at first, and like Melissa said, it's a lot of emulating early on.

Like I really wanted to be Joni Mitchell.

And then I read an interview with her.

You know, she was so acerbic back in the day.

Oh, my God.

I was so afraid of her.

Didn't like anybody.

And she was like, I don't want anybody to copy me.

And I was like, oh, God.

I guess I better find my own voice.

Joni doesn't want me to be like her.

So there were like these pivotal moments, but mostly it was like

that was the way that I could figure out the world through my little lens you know and then as Melissa said you you live more and then your songs become

more alive in your own experience and they become richer I could write five songs a day when I was 17

but they were all the same and they were crap like I look back at those lyrics and it's like God I see these artists that are getting signed at 17 18 you're like oh god they're gonna by the time they're 25 they're gonna go what you know they're gonna be completely different than what they created at 17.

I'm so glad I didn't well we did record a few songs that if I had to go back and like oops we could have left that one off but um

I still have those so I think for me I just see the world in images like and then like Melissa I'll write things down and I'll think oh this is so good this is gonna go in a song nine times a week no it doesn't work

so there's a constant self-criticism too like it's very rarely there's two or three songs maybe that I'm like ah, that did the trick, that's what I was going for.

But for me, it really is songwriting is completely cathartic.

You know, and with this administration, I've had a lot to write about.

So, the problem is that I end up sort of spewing the same sentiments and sort of descriptors.

And after you have lived and written songs for so long, I just don't want to repeat myself.

But when it is the way for me to process what's going on in the world or in life, then you know, there tend to be repeating themes because

not much changes over time when it comes to the human race.

So anyway, that was a long-winded way of saying that's where mine comes from,

trying to figure shit out.

Yeah.

What about you?

I mean, my family was musical in some ways.

Like my parents love music.

My dad's had a great voice, and we sort of had to take piano.

for three years.

That was like the compulsory, which I'm so glad about.

But I think I was just like drawn in, like my older sister would listen to a lot of the music from the late late 60s and 70s.

And I was really drawn into like Neil Young and Jimi Hendrix and Janice Joplin and Grace Slick and like all those kind of that era.

And then I discovered, you know, Carol King and Roseanne Cash and Linda Ronstadt and, you know, a lot of Joni Mitchell and.

Ricky Lee and all these things that started cropping up.

But when I was very young, I was in church choir.

I was a real church girl.

I went like, you know, a few days a week, at least Sunday school, Bible school, youth group, choir practice, Friday night skating.

I did all of it, right?

And music was a big part of what we did in the Methodist church.

I was Methodist.

Sporting Methodist?

I was too.

You were too as well.

Sporting Methodist.

Sporting Methodist.

And there was so much music.

And

my parents ended up dropping me off at church.

They didn't want to go to church, but I was like, take me to church.

Yeah, so you can just sit around and play.

And I loved the spirit in it.

Yeah.

And we are one.

We are one.

Because you go and you think the feeling you have is about jesus i was like oh my god i love jesus that was my first concert i'm like oh i just love this music

yes yes yes right like it's just that feeling of all in a moment i had a moment

i was almost i had a moment of being maybe a christian artist oh really it's true i was like 20 it was before i came to California and I had done I had done so much work in the church and had become like head of the youth group and I wrote a musical and I was doing all this stuff.

And then, yeah, you remember Phil Kegey?

Oh, yeah.

I love Phil Kege.

He came to our town and my

and they let me open for him.

Yeah.

And I was like, this is it.

This is my chance, you know.

And I, he was great.

Oh, he's great.

Yeah.

And I met him backstage and I was like, what do you think?

Do you think, you know, I could, you know, because I'd written some great songs and, and he, he, he, sweetheart, he said, um,

I don't think Christian music is ready for you.

Well, that was probably,

I'm going to Los Angeles.

Wow, way go filter.

I'm just going to be gay.

He's like, I know it's

cool.

That was nice of him.

Yeah.

What is so?

You all are a Methodist.

What is, do you have any language to put around what your faith is right now?

Oh, yeah.

What's the language you would use?

Like in this snapshot, this moment today,

what is your faith?

I'm a spiritualist.

Spiritualist.

Yeah.

I believe in

intelligent design.

You just can't look at this world and how it is made without understanding that some

intelligent

life force or source

is creating this that's going on.

And I had cancer 21 years ago, and it really like...

oh, I got to get in life right now or I'm going to die, you know, that sort of thing.

So I really dove deeply into religions, science, science, quantum physics, these things.

And when you start realizing that it's all the same thing, that we're actually connected by a force, whatever you want to call it, the ether, the source, we're connected, we're all one, and we're all different,

and we're all creating and moving forward.

and we're all trying to figure out how to live together.

And there's a saying that started with Armes back in the Greek time.

It was as above, so below.

What we're doing down here is also how it's done everywhere.

You can see in a small cell

what

we are as a cell of a person are in this society, as our countries are in the world, as the world is in the universe.

And it's all the same.

So I...

That's a whole nother podcast I could definitely talk to you about, but

it brings me much peace

to

understand it that way, to understand the spirit in the world.

What about you, Amy?

I mean,

I believe that, like, I was a religion major and I really love religions, like to study how people live their, how, what you use as your construct to get through your life, you know, and so I'd look at religion as

two things.

Like I'm very spiritual and I'm very like nature-oriented and kind of

paganism in some ways.

But I, the structure of Christianity is, is my comfort zone and not the patriarchy, of course.

When I write songs that are like gospel songs, I still write about Jesus, and I still think of Jesus as

a historical figure who may or may not have been everything that we think, but in my mind, it's like this rebellious advocate for people that, you know, had less and

or weren't recognized, I guess is a better way to put it.

They actually probably had more, but were disenfranchised.

And so for me, it's that I was raised so heavily in that, and it's still something I feel comfortable with, you know, and I feel I go to church and I like preaching and I, when it's a good minister, and I really just love it, you know, I enjoy it a lot.

So, but I'm very, but I also love Buddhism and I love the Jewish faith and I love, you know, like Jewish theologians like Martin Buber.

I like, you know, so I just, I think Hinduism is really, there's a lot of things in Islam that are very special.

And so I love it all, but I think I realize for me, the vehicle that I, is, is kind of Jesus without the patriarchy, I guess, in a way, which is hard to do.

But I have like a filter and translator inside me that just takes whatever is happening and translates it into my own language, and I feel good.

But I don't, but I definitely feel, you know, determined for the church and institutions to sort of get with it, you know, and because there's so many churches like the church in my neighborhood, my mom's neighborhood, who my mom needs a lot of care right now.

And they're really there for her.

and it's just like 50 people in the congregation with an incredible minister and a great piano player and

you know that's what a church it's a neighborhood church they're there for everybody when someone's house burns down they're there for them when my mom is sick they're there for them to me that's what church is supposed to be about yeah you know and so i believe they're it's important to have that community space i just wish it hadn't been hijacked by all the assholes that's my that's my take on it yeah but emily's got a whole

well i just uh i guess i'm much more of like a Holy Spirit kind of girl.

Like when I was younger, it was really about Jesus and and I like these women I grew up in the Methodist Church.

My dad was a theologian and a minister, but we were um I guess you could call it progressive thinking, so we weren't nothing was ever forced on us.

We were able to ask a lot of questions and my dad was able to describe to us the true mythology of Christian doctrine and storytelling.

So when I became I had a sort of intellectual grasp of the sharing of stories, like the Lord's Prayer is actually a Jewish prayer in origin, and then the stories of the gods and all that.

So then I was like, okay, that's cool.

So I'm not a fundamentalist, and the mythology is beautiful and all that.

But to me, like

human beings, in my opinion, we have a relationship to spirituality.

So the more we lock in

to goodness,

doing for others, respecting our place

in the scope of things, then the deeper the spiritual world grows.

To put it simply, this entity that I believe in, this Holy Spirit, it grows the more human beings are in relationship with it.

So this is our task as human beings, and I'm a little negative about the human species.

I don't think we've really come that far in terms of our evolution as beings, and we do have a chance to ruin it all.

And perhaps we will.

But in the moment, we are tasked with this relationship.

So, I buy into that, but also I buy into like the cosmos.

It's like

we cannot fathom the mysteries of the universe.

And so, there are mysteries, but then there are fractals.

They know that things are repeating and repeating.

And then, to me, it's just so truly in the literal sense of the word, awesome, like awesome.

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What is your faith or all of that?

How does it inform how you show up right now in this moment that we're in in this country?

And how does being on the road together right now feel?

Being like all of this, you know, it's so emotional just watching you on stage because, you know, just you have walked us through so many things.

And I felt comforted last night because I thought, well, there's a lot of young people there last night.

And I was like, oh, these people think this is new.

Like, there's so many queer kids out there.

But you all

went through it when it wasn't so easy, right?

When everybody wasn't assimilated.

So what can you, what do you want them to know, the young kids to know right now, like young queer kids?

And what have you learned from them

that has changed your worldview?

Our oldest child is a lesbian.

And

it's so funny because she'll say, people ask me, do you think you're lesbian because your mother was or whatever?

And she's like, well, are you straight because your parents were straight?

You know, that's a silly question.

And I raised her in a world where

she really thought there were more gay people than straight people in the world when she was a child.

She really did.

And she came to the Berkeley show the other night, and the Berkeley show was...

It was 10,000 strong, magical men and women.

And she turned to her partner, she goes, this is what I was raised in.

This is what I thought the world was, was this right here.

So I see that

as these younger kids who were raised after we already

started building it, and

we were the

famous ones, but there were so many people.

I was surrounded by

Irva Shivaid and these men and women who were fighting the AIDS fight in the 80s.

And that's what really brought us all together.

This was something that was killing people.

And we, and we all joined together.

And these people, I would, I would hang around them in Hollywood and they were working so hard.

And it inspired me to go, you know, it would probably mean something if I really came out and did that.

And so

there was a small sense of community and, you know, like what we, they wouldn't, I remember when Bill Clinton actually said gay and lesbian for the first time on television, it was like, oh my God, he said the word lesbian, you know, and it was, it was just really, you you know huge and and I would say to the younger ones now

We have come so far you you don't realize that it wasn't that long ago that it was like this So we have come so far rest assured in that Yes, people are gonna try to push back, but it's not gonna work because we have we've already come so far and I Didn't think in my lifetime that I would be able to say I have a wife same you know that wasn't something that

and marriage when we were just fighting to stay alive and not be thrown in jail, we didn't think about marriage.

That was like something the straight people do, you know.

And it wasn't until I realized that, well, there's a whole lot of rights that come with marriage and stuff.

You know, I wanted marriage so I could get gay divorced.

You know, so I could

divorce equality is important.

No, you have no idea.

I had to pay twice as much in taxes that someone else would have to pay

in a divorce.

So

I would say, don't despair.

it it's

have enough uh of the contrast to give you energy but don't ever let it overcome you because we have already pushed through so much of this and it's just people in their fear and that they don't understand what they don't see and and so so be out be gay be who you are and change happens slowly and just in 20 years they'll be going oh well we used to have to do that you know

exactly the same yes what about you two what do you think about when you think about the young queer love i love

i love young queer activists i love young activists not even just queer they've for me it's a meant they've mentored me all my life i've felt like

you know i used to hang out with this band the butchies which was part of team dress was kind of like the riot girl era and we played tour together some and they really opened my mind to my own sort of gender struggles and i you know, they're 10 years younger than me.

And from that point on, I sort of started realizing, yeah, you know what?

It's like, I don't really have a lot to say.

I have to listen probably a lot because they opened my mind to a lot of stuff that was already going on inside me and enabled me to articulate things that made my life so much easier.

And then

as I got older, I noticed that all these great movements were starting to be led by, you know, younger people.

And I mean, gun safety, gun control, environmental movements, climate change, Black Lives Matter,

death penalty work, the Indigenous movement right now is very youth-led and amazing young leaders and the queer movement.

And I find that I have a lot of young queer people in my life also because I have two gay sisters and have, they have,

you know,

I have a gay sister that's got gay children.

I've got a brother that's got gay kids.

It's like, it's just a lot of gay around and it's and queer, but it's so different for them because they're so on, it's so unexpected, it's so like fluid and it's so not labeled and it's free and I don't know.

I just feel like there's still a lot to learn.

And there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of bullying, there's a lot of hate and vitriol, and it's really important, I think, just to

love each other through that.

But also, I have so much faith in this younger batch of people

that I just try to like listen, what needs to be done.

Like, what are y'all doing?

What do I need to be doing to help that?

Because

I feel like that's the leadership that's so important right now.

But I also think just generally every day right now, I feel like I'm always like, I got to do something positive today for somebody.

It doesn't have to be queer.

You know what I mean?

It just has to be one thing that helps.

Because right now, like, that's the only thing I can focus on is like narrowing into like, how is that?

How is that one thing that I can do today that'll help somebody feel better or open somebody's mind up a little bit or make some, or just love, as you, you know, you talk about love on stage stage a lot it's good it's like yeah because I live in an area where everybody's it's very it's much more conservative and there's a lot of it's it's very hard right now for people to just like

find their way through it you know and but if people can keep relationships going even though they feel differently and they hate each other in some ways if they can try to keep something together I think it's

right now it's probably going to be the thing that saves us you know to do that to have some humanity

for me I just think simply like i don't i don't have much that i would tell young youth and activists um queer youth except to say that things are on a continuum and something came before you it came before us

um people have suffered to bring us where we are and now there's a lot of suffering against sort of like one step forward two steps back it feels like with this administration and just the horrific way that trans people are being treated and all of their rights being stripped.

But there has been a continuum and there always will be.

But mostly I want to learn from them.

Like, I just recently got to know Katie Gavin from Looma.

She is

an amazing human being.

I love her.

She's a really wonderful human being.

And she, I went to go see her play her solo show in New York and I met her friends and I, it was like, I was going to say a kid in a candy store, but it was more like, here I am, this person in my age with my experience and trying to use the tools that I have.

These young people were so inspiring.

First of all, they were all non-binary, all her friends.

One of them was talking about how they flew to Egypt so that they could try to sneak over the border or get food to Palestinians, like on the ground, complete courage that they wouldn't even call courage.

It's just the way that they live their truth.

So I'm like, y'all tell me what to do, and I'll do my best as a middle-aged, like, whatever.

Just so inspiring.

And so there's a whole like circle of young artists and some of them I find on YouTube.

But Katie's like in that in that circle of people that's so inspiring to me.

So I just want to listen and like be a worker bee and show up for them.

Beautiful.

But what is a daylight getting through this shit?

Like besides the like theoretical, like when you guys wake up and you're talking to your partners or you're talking to your kids, how do you approach living in this moment just on a day-to-day basis?

How do you ride the wave of fascism?

Well, you want to tell them that you're in an interesting period of your life.

Well, I always am.

Oh, it's fascism and you got to change it.

Oh, menopause.

Like, I never,

I just had a hot flash as we were sitting here, and I was like, I was like, oh, yeah.

Yeah, the intersection of fascism or

is this raging homicidal lightning flash I have inside of me, like due to the fallen estrogen or the fallen democracy?

Can you please write that book?

No, I can't keep a thought in my mind for longer than two minutes going through my book.

Just record everything as you think it.

Just like

it, and then translate.

I mean, you all have kids.

Like, what are you saying to them?

And how do you keep your equilibrium?

Do you?

I do.

Again,

it started with me when I I went through cancer.

That was just a big, big

shift in my life of, oh, wow, I've got to

think about me personally.

And as I said earlier, about as above, so below,

I represent the whole,

each individual has everything in it.

And each part of you and your body, your DNA has everything in it.

So I look to the

fantastic things.

I also look at what I'm taking in.

It is really hard to watch the news.

Watching the news is,

you have to set yourself in a good place before you watch the news or it will take you under and throw you away.

And the technology that we have, how instantly things that happen all over the world,

you can look and feel it instantly.

And that's,

and then there's

like in the moment, there's nothing you can do about it.

So it causes a great depression.

So it's about, okay, how can I get to a place where I know that I'm doing what I can, what's healthy for me?

Health is, especially menopause, this is when all the health stuff starts.

So it's about strengthening yourself for my children.

I can't have my children watching me fall apart

over something that I literally can't change today.

And

I want to have my children see me, one, love what I'm doing because I want them to love what they do in life.

I want them to love life.

Words don't teach.

I can tell them you have to love your life, but if they're seeing me falling apart every day, they're going to go, that doesn't fit so I want to be an example all I can do is teach them by my example an example of a loving relationship how I love myself in my relationship how I love myself in my work and how the only thing that could ever take me away from you is that I love is my love and and show them that that's the joy of life is doing what you love

and then in your doing what you'd love you actually make the the world a better place.

You really do.

And believing that and then letting the things that you can do come to you, like this.

You have inspired so many young people just by being truthful, just by being you.

That's the power that can't be taken away.

And

also the knowledge that in this world we live in a dualistic universe.

That is, our reality is good and bad, light and dark, up and down, in and out, right and wrong.

You can't have one without the other.

They all exist.

So how do we exist in a world where there's going to be really bad things always happening?

How do we do that?

Well,

appreciation.

You know what?

This administration really makes me appreciate good leadership.

I want to find people that

are thinking forward about leadership.

I want to put my energy, instead of putting my energy looking at what I don't like, saying what I don't like, which gives me more of what I don't like.

I'm going to say, okay, this exists.

I'm not going to, you know, say it doesn't exist.

Yes, it exists.

And it makes me want

more peace.

It makes me want better leaders, better leadership.

How can we lead as one in our diversity?

Oh, well, we celebrate all diversity.

We even celebrate people who don't understand us, but we appreciate, find a way to truly do it.

And it's inside work.

And it's inside work loving our bodies and how, okay, we're not making babies anymore.

That was only a part of our life.

Now,

Unfortunately, in the last 2,000 years, a woman post-menopausal, 2,000 years ago, was the village leader.

They were the ones who knew the things, the wisdom, the owls that we are, you know,

that's what our job was back then.

And then that's been taken away and buried.

And no, no, no, no, no.

It's time to embrace that now.

Now, this is this is when the good stuff starts happening.

That's exactly right.

That's right.

This is the good stuff.

All the political movements.

Yeah.

And all the, if we can like zoom out of humanity, the bad things need to happen

so that you have something to fight against.

More good stuff.

And then this is the moment where we get to come together.

So like, that's the way that my mindset works too.

Like, though I wish that we didn't have to go through the suffering portal to get through, you know,

to the next step.

I mean, anyone who's suffering really is, that's proof of love.

Because

Anyone who looks at this mess and feels deep pain or sadness,

that's only because there's a vision inside of them that is like, this should be more beautiful but that love

yourself enough to move to the next step from that do not stay in despair or suffering because then that doesn't help anybody and you get sick and you die yeah so

understand it feel it and then appreciate I appreciate feeling that because I know that that

has made me want this.

We all went through, you have your Laramie song, I have a scarecrow song about Matthew Shepherd.

People don't understand what a big moment that was because it shifted people going no no no we can't be gay there's no gay no gay to wait a minute I'm not that I don't want to kill in in such a horrible way and it shifted a whole lot of people to I'm not that

so the awfulness you we are going to see more people go you know what I'm not that.

Even though they might have been, oh,

oh, I'm conservative.

Ooh, I'm not that.

And they move over.

So that's where change happens.

You mentioned being yourself out loud, that that is an important part of your work.

Have you ever had a time where you

decided to censor yourself, either in music or on stage?

Can you think of a time where that has happened and you didn't say the thing?

And then what was the fallout?

Yeah, I mean, I think for me,

it it's like a daily wrestling when we're on tour and singing I always think about that like not saying something

for various reasons you know like if you're in a band with a lot of people and different people feel different things and you know that out of respect for people in your band that this may not be the time to talk about certain issues or whatever.

But then then you're like, but

this is the time to talk about that.

So it's like, but I think

it's harder than that I want to admit to myself to not be censored and to really be as strong as I want to be, you know, so I think it's not just like one moment.

It's like a constant dialogue for me because

it's easier to sing a song that's outspoken than it is to actually speak out.

That's interesting.

And so it's, you know, and but

for me, it's like when you're at a protest or a march, it's, you know, you're you're there, you're in it, you're saying it.

When you're on stage in front of a lot of people, sometimes it's like,

I don't want to, you start, do I want to alienate people?

And then you're like, why am I worried about that right now?

And so I have this little thing going on in my head.

I think it's cool for me and Emily because we, I think we sort of tag team this a little bit because you, there's always this sense of who feels stronger that we don't even talk about, but you can just tell like, well, Emily, Emily feels strong tonight to talk about this.

Or I feel strong tonight to talk about this.

And I don't really even think about it.

But as I look at it, I think like that's where we have the luxury of that, tag teaming and making each other stronger.

And I live in a town that's very, you know, I love my neighbors so much.

And I really am careful, not about what I say, but choosing my moments to like.

evangelize to them about whatever, you know, and just and respecting where they're coming from.

But if it's, if someone makes a racist comment, I'm going to say something about it, you know, or someone says something really hateful.

I do speak up.

But like, I'm not scared about what people think of me.

I'm scared of losing the thread of a relationship

and damaging that.

Because I also had a dad that was very conservative and a mom that's now super progressive, but used to be conservative.

So, and I, and I try to be brave, you know, because, and I look to my mentors, my Indian elders and

other elders, you know, Jimmy Carter, Stacey Abrams,

you know, who unabashedly would just say things that they say, but they say them in a way that's gentle, or

somehow they're managed to say it without alienating people and still speak their truth.

And I just study that

like John Lewis because I haven't gotten there at all in any way.

If you want some help, I have some advice on this topic.

Cool.

Oh, cool.

You know, when we were young, and our parents would like, you'd be like acting up and they would just be like, knock it off.

Knock it off.

I'm bringing it back.

Knock it off.

off okay so when somebody starts steps out of line just like knock it off

because it's kind of loving and also nostalgic and also to the point yeah

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Let me ask you all, like, how is life different for you now that you're so much in the public and like truthfully, very, very famous?

How does that, does it make you more self-conscious about the way you live your life or how you speak your thoughts or how you do your job?

I think for me, I have all different thoughts about it.

I'm extremely sensitive human, so Abby knows we go through a lot of ups and downs in a day.

But I think for me, the biggest challenge right now is to understand that my job isn't just to comfort a community.

Like, it is not my job to make everybody feel comfortable all the time, which is my,

I love the people who we do life with and I love our community.

And then like every two years, I am

internally compelled to just blow it all up by like saying something or doing something.

And then everyone's like, oh, we liked you before.

And then, but so it's like a cycle.

So for me, it's like getting comfortable with

my

mission or responsibility being being not to just comfort a community, but also challenge and being okay, leaving behind whatever has to go, knowing that whatever will come next is what was supposed to be.

But it does feel like a constant like, oh, we just got comfortable.

Like what you said about life is like, we just got comfortable with this thing and now.

Like, I think if I, we know, if I'm speaking somewhere at a church or whatever and no one leaves, I feel like I haven't done my job.

Right, right.

Oh.

I always think that.

Oh, interesting.

Like when I start seeing people walk out, I'm like, oh, God, God, oh my God, I'm almost done.

I did the thing.

Yeah.

She's supposed to be challenging.

She's trying to be challenging people

to a point where some people are like

because it makes me sad because I don't want, I want people to feel safe, but then safety isn't always the.

You're right.

You're right.

You're right.

It's hard for me to do that, but you're

so right.

And then what's your experience in all of that, Abby?

Since the time I was 15, 16, from like a smaller town in upstate New York to then like the world,

I've had an interesting relationship with fame and being known in the public eye.

And I think it's such a bizarre thing

to have like,

I would liken it to your guys' talent.

Because there is something supernatural about it that I don't have anything to do with.

I don't know why I was gifted this thing.

So I do actually feel like I am of the people because I can't claim full responsibility of it all.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, and

so when people come up to us, I just, I, I don't, I don't feel there's a difference.

Yeah, I agree.

Like when, when, when we, when, when I first met Glennon and got three kids,

I was like very much thrown into.

I'm now I have to have a consciousness for these three humans also, because they're young.

And

when somebody would kind of interrupt us, that would be interruptive to their experience.

And so having to think through it from like a kid's perspective, and nowadays they're older now, and so it's usually pretty normal.

And we live in an area where everybody kind of respects us.

I don't know.

I feel like the energy on this set right now, it's like,

this is going to sound so weird, but just bear with me.

I was doing a breath class.

And in the breath class, you're basically hyperventilating,

you know, and I had some hallucination where God came down on me and basically was just like, I gave you this.

gift.

I gave you these gifts.

And like, it's up to you what you want to do with it.

So it's like a daily choice to be in this, in the system.

And in the sports world, especially when I was traveling overseas, like people were calling me Dyke and like, fuck you.

And I was like, I was the enemy.

I was like the opposition.

So I got really comfortable in a place where people are booing.

Because

if I, if they weren't booing,

then I was not playing well.

Then they didn't, they weren't

scared.

So it's kind of weird dynamic.

So I'm like the perfect person for you to be married to because I'm just like, you know,

roll up your sleeve.

They're yelling at us.

And I'm like,

yeah.

I don't know.

That's really interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you guys think anything was lost in the time when, you know, there were rainbows in every old navy?

Because

like, does simply, because really.

I don't know how to put this into words, but it felt like there was something cooler than that that we were going for.

Like, just being like everyone else wasn't, it was kind of like, oh.

Well, then you have the capitalist part of it, too.

Yeah, commodified.

Like, I remember when American Airlines came out and was like very pro-gay early, early on, and I was like, oh, that's cool from the goodness of their hearts.

Right.

But you know what's like in...

I think it's a link to what you're saying, Glenn.

And a lot of this conversation has come up recently, and I've had people I know say, it seems like the trans movement has hurt the gay movement and they're more they

they feel

their identity is lesbian and not queer they don't like and this is it's very

It's very interesting to me.

And I understand why you can bite off more than you can chew in terms of a political strategy that the bl the voting bloc is not ready for.

But it doesn't mean that there isn't some way that you have to keep fighting for that so it's just really interesting to me now

these powers that have separated people they've gotten into the queer community and like

and it's like diabolical and it's like no no no we need to stick together

that's history too emily you know because like think about it

remember the parades in atlanta and they'd be like we don't want all the the you know the queens at the front of the parade because yeah then the then the families won't accept the parade and yeah yeah yeah you know and then you know, it's like this

fight over femmes and butch lesbians.

And just, there's always this like weird

people want to close the door.

People are always like, okay, we got in, but no, not you.

You know, it's like the

safety.

Yeah, it's like America, just

immigration, you know.

Okay, once the, you know, the Irish came over, they're like, okay, now we're closing.

You can't come over now.

More suffrage.

You know, it's like, okay, well, just get the white ladies first.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

It's this constant

challenge of human beings to accept differences and this diversity.

And diversity is scary to people, especially if you grow up in a place that's not diverse, then different people.

That's why traveling is so good for people.

So it's just...

people getting comfortable.

They got comfortable with the gay thing.

Okay, we were out there singing.

They liked our songs.

We found that, okay, there's gay people in sports.

And then eventually

weird people will just be,

you know, it's it's part of all of us.

It is especially hard.

I mean,

it is especially hard right now with the trans movement so under attack for it to come for our community to be

to sit in that seat too and and start.

It's just like, wow, you see, have you not learned?

Yeah, it's like the past 50 years.

I mean, there's a great example in the world right now.

How can a group of people who have been so oppressed, killed, separated, ostracized,

treat another group of human beings

inhumanely.

I think that's one of the things I've learned so much from our 20-year-olds.

They don't even comprehend the idea of leaving anyone behind.

Like if this whole like compromising thing, like if they don't want us without the trans community, then fuck you, then we don't get any of us.

Right, yeah.

So all of it is about, no, no, we'll stand together.

Because what we, we're not even, I think that's what I'm trying to say.

Like, we're not even trying to get what you have Yeah, right we don't need your room We don't need your we'll just stick together because if we did we'd be bigger and more powerful

and if we could intersectionality that these conservatives these the the the people that are afraid of us are also just a part of this we're looking at you as you're kind of weird yeah you know and that's where the median stuff comes in because it's all very one kind of sided and if that's that's our job is to keep doing what we do be successful love what we do show be up here so that pretty soon it's just and those are the noisy ones.

They've got all the power right now, but power is attention.

So if we can

be who we are, have more attention, then they become just part of the big soup.

Can you tell them about the Freedom Fleet?

Well, I mean, this is just a cheesy metaphor that I always use, but.

It's not cheesy.

It's very important.

So in one day, I was feeling extremely depressed about like the onslaught of everything and like, how are we going to respond and how do we resist something that's constantly

and I was rereading this essay by Michelle Alexander that she wrote in the first Trump administration where she was saying don't worry we're not the resistance like the the river of like yearning for love and justice which is what all three of you have been singing about forever is the river that's the way of things that is the energy that's God that's and you're flowing with it or you're resisting it and the but the damn the resistance is the other side that's like that's why all the laws and all the whatever that's

but it's not just the river.

We have to be human about, we have to get in the river.

We need to figure out just like concrete thing you can do every day that makes a difference.

That's not just helping someone feel better, but also like, you know, like the friends in LA that we have that do the networks of people that alert people to when Ice rates are going on or, you know, taking someone in or helping or, you know, if someone's like, I can't work here anymore, but I need to still make money, but I'm undocumented and I need help and I need to have some kind of job, but I can't do it here because, you know, like, just try whatever it is that you can do mechanically.

Like, I just feel like there's so many, it's so hard to figure out what to do.

I know, because I'm always struggling with that.

Like, what can I do that like is actually in the trenches and makes a difference?

I think singing is good, but also I have some extra time.

I want to do something else too.

Yeah.

So I want to help this person or help this kid or do this or that.

And it's like, so if we get, you know, so if some trans kid gets gives us a request to do something special for the family or do this or that, it's like, oh, yeah, we can do that.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, okay, there's something to do.

It's like, just be on the lookout.

And everyone doing that is what creates change.

Exactly.

Doing what you can do right.

there.

Yeah.

And people are different about what they do, aren't they?

I mean,

they have all the different ways.

You know, I used to be like, they threw condoms at the Pope.

What?

You know, and it was like, that was important.

Yes.

I was too young to get that now.

I'm like, hell yeah.

And then my dad has this relationship with this Benedictine community in Minnesota.

And I came to understand why a community of prayer was important and how that fit into the whole thing.

But it's like, we have to respect all the input for good change, you know, no matter what form it takes, what it looks like.

And we have to respect the people in different boats.

There's this vibe of like, I'm in this boat and you're in this boat, so fuck you.

But it's like, no, no, we're just on the same.

You're all on the same river.

You're all completely clean.

You're all on the same river.

Yeah, and we need them in our boat, and we need to be in our boat, and we should just be the only thing we should be yelling is, go, go, go, right.

But a lot of times white people think that it's their perspective is the perspective.

You know what I mean?

I have not noticed that, Emily.

So, like, if you're, if you're after the election and you're wringing your hands and you're crying like I did, and then you talk to a black woman who's been in the struggle, not only her entire life, but her generations, her people, her,

and then you're like, oh.

And we're like, I'm going to take my ball and go home because it's been two weeks.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, that's another thing, the perception of time.

The only thing you have control over is you and how you feel.

And we don't realize how powerful.

that is.

Yeah.

Can you just, first of all, move in with me?

And then while you're thinking about that, I actually just want to know, is there any, you mentioned inspiration from books, poetry, movies, TV, but like, what is, do you have anything lately that's been especially delightful or healing to you in the art world, TV world, anything?

And it also could be my answer, which is Love Island.

So it could be very

low brow.

Like, she's not going to want that answer from you guys, but I just want to make sure that.

Yeah, there's

a range of things.

Like Love Island, I'm just like, it's like the perfect medication for me right now.

There's a.

My children's too.

Yeah.

This isn't a Love Island Answer.

Great.

But

there's a book.

It's called The Myth of Normal.

Gabor Mate.

Oh, we love Gabor.

Gabor, Gabor, I think.

Yes.

Just, I mean, it's a big, thick book.

But you will find comfort, you will find some understanding in why people think the way they do, and then how you can heal your own inner stuff

to be

of service to beauty is great service beautiful I would say that

okay love I write that one down

I got into this writer Imani Perry

and

I just

I've read everything and then I reread it and then I listen to the audiobooks it

such a great perspective on so many things.

Beyond Race contextualizes so many things in such a beautiful way.

So she's my

new love of writing.

But

I have to say, my 11-year-old,

sitting beside them on the couch, watching them play Minecraft is quite a calming experience for me.

Whoa.

And they're really good at it and into it.

And we do a lot of things together besides that.

I don't want y'all to think I'm just like for six hours playing Minecraft.

They create humans.

But yeah, and it's all about creating.

And I'm just sitting there and I'm just listening to all the beautiful sounds that Minecraft has.

And I'm just like, it's really peaceful right now.

So, and then we walk in the woods a lot.

Those things.

I think 11-year-olds are, that's a great age.

Is Mani's work important to you because of the southern thing?

Because you're

probably.

I mean, I think, yeah, I'm a broken record about the South.

You know, I'm trying to also write about something different.

But

yeah, and I think, and I also think she brings,

it's about the South, but she's, she has a way of bringing people into the circle and understanding other people that are so different from herself and being truly empathetic, which is so hard to do.

And she really does it, you know.

And so, I mean, that book, South to America, was like for me.

I think I listened to the all of the book twice, read the book twice.

I just, I was like, this is, commit this to my mantra.

So, yeah, I think it helped me, it restored me to in my town with my people to be patient and empathetic and loving.

And I just, I'm such a southerner, you know, and gave me more patience with my ancestors that are,

you know, there's some rest in peace, but like, whoa, some of them should not rest in peace.

Just work harder, do better.

But yeah, so anyway, yeah.

Awesome.

What's up for Emily?

Well, you know,

this friend Kaplan, she's a friend of Amy's.

Now you all know her.

She's from Georgia.

I spent a few hours with her.

She's a filmmaker, a very good filmmaker.

And she also is doing this on-the-ground work with reporting when ICE shows up.

I was so inspired.

I've known this woman for decades.

I was so inspired by the way she is living and working in the world.

It was very, I don't know how to describe it.

I was like,

and it made me want to be a better person so like i have all these people in my life amy's one of them too that makes me seriously makes me want to be i'm not trying to belittle that a better person you know like i have a lot of people in my life who are very smart and

and active and um and so i'm always inspired by that you know katie gavin has been very important to me me too um yeah her personhood her music who the people that she's introduced me to um and then like, I've really, because I've struggled with my privilege, my whiteness, I've had a lot of like,

I don't know if guilt's the right word, but taken it into perspective in a way that

has diminished the power of joy in my own life with people I love.

And so I'm very, very invested right now in spending time with people I love.

And I'm very fortunate to love my family.

They're like my friends, hang with them.

So I'm getting a lot of inspiration.

Also, this is kind of weird, but we I went to Scandinavia.

My sisters and I took my dad and we went to the museum in Oslo, like the National Museum, and it was so well curated and it was like the revival of the Gothic area of art.

And I was like, wow, curating is really important.

Like just like a well-constructed sermon was always important.

So I really had an appreciation for the work that goes into presenting something.

That was inspiring to me.

And then I read Miranda July.

I read both her books.

And I'm like, I fucking love weird people.

Yeah.

Like, just

diversity and weirdness.

How many groups have split up and horrible stuff?

And these two genuinely still love each other.

It's so

great.

I'm thankful for it.

It's so inspiring.

You guys are so cool.

And we love you.

We love you.

I like my little indigo girl sandwich.

Very, very happy.

We're having a love tour.

We are so excited.

I want to throw in one more thing.

Yes, me too.

Plant medicine, hallucinogenics are healing and provide a lot of relief.

And I'm going to throw a little bit into my foundation.

Oh, no, no, please.

We want to hear.

I read all about it.

I'm

going to say it.

Yeah, yes.

Well, you know, cannabis is the one that...

that everyone just, they use it recreationally, but I think any use of any plant medicine is medicinal.

People just don't know it.

And osilocybin is got so much there's so much micro dosing and and there's it's all about facilitation though but the big work the big work which the etheridge foundation does is in opioid addiction i lost my son five years ago and and um

and to

see

and understand the science and this is where science and spirit meet and the etheridge foundation i i'm right in the middle really bringing these two together because the science is in our brain chemistry,

our neural pathways

can be reset

through plant medicine.

This is not any sort of, this is not, oh, we're doing drugs.

This is therapeutic work with ayahuasca, with ibogaine.

Ibogaine is a, Iboga is an African root that for centuries they've been doing

ceremony with.

And one, sometimes just one journey, one four-hour journey on Ibogaine can

let,

the reason it helps addicts is because the addiction is the neurological pathway just going there that needs to be fixed.

It pauses that.

And you can rewire.

The science is there.

The Etheridge Foundation raises money for this research all over the world that shows that the science is working.

There's a lot of hope there.

There's a lot of relevance.

Keep doing that awesome work.

Where do people find that information?

Etheridgefoundation.org.

And there's information there.

You can donate.

You can help.

There's all kinds of things you can do.

That's great.

All right.

But I just want to say that we've seen a lot of great things.

A lot of hope.

I was a former opioid addict myself.

So I very much understand.

I've been sober for almost 10 years now.

We've done a couple of therapeutic treatments and it's...

a huge deal.

And there's a whole range.

Yeah.

So I'm really trying to also normalize that.

Yeah.

Bring it out of the way.

It's great work.

Yeah.

I've seen a a special about a couple that did that with a man who had PTSD from the war.

Oh, it's

incredible how it changed his life.

Changed their life because they rewired their life.

They inherited their neural pathways.

It's the science.

It's not

a few pathways that need to be rewired.

Oh, let's

rewire those pathways now.

Very amazing.

What about you guys?

Do you have anything?

I do dog rescue.

Do you know what she does?

She brings puppies to shows.

It's so hard for us.

We love it.

I don't do it.

Our torn ones are logical.

All right.

Door, you don't do it.

Okay.

I do dog rescue, but I didn't mean to do this one at this moment.

And I have six right now.

And then I had to rescue this 110-pound Rottweiler just out of puppyhood.

Sweet, sweet, but I can't keep it.

I got to find a home for this dog.

He's great with kids.

Don't know yet.

He's so far pretty good with other dogs.

We're not positive.

He ignores cats.

We're working with him, but he's at my house.

Okay.

Anyone?

So when you need it?

No, I don't know.

By the time this airs, he'll be adopted, I hope.

Okay.

I mean, ideally, it would be like somebody that doesn't even have, like, that's had Rottweilers and wants another one because they lost one or something and likes to go run him with a big dog because he needs to be trained.

Did you guys see Tiki online at all?

Are you online?

No.

Okay, Simon Sitz.

Simon Sitz IG.

This is a silly story now, but if you want to do yourselves a favor, just go to Simon SitzIG and then follow Tiki.

This woman, Isabel, adopted a dog named Tiki and took us through the day-by-day process.

And it was exactly what I needed right when Trump got elected.

Oh, cool.

That I was like, oh my God, like one person saving one life

is the content that I'm here for.

So do yourself a favor.

That's beautiful.

Her having her.

I have dogs and opossums and like squid in my Instagram feed than anything else.

Cows.

Highland cows.

Oh, Highlands.

Highland cows.

The way cows love music.

Yes.

Yes.

Okay, these guys have very profoundly offered wonderful things.

I want to plug my musical.

Yay!

Yay!

That's huge.

Like going the view.

That's funny.

So this is my first musical.

That's awesome.

I'm writing them.

Thanks, AIM.

I'm writing the music.

And Beth Malone, who starred in Funhome, Funhome, wrote the book with her friend Marianne Stratton, who's a wonderful writer, taught public school for 30 years.

So Marianne Beth and I wrote this show.

It's called Starstruck, loosely based on Serena de Bergerac.

And we have our first production at Bucks County Playhouse.

And the first show is like February 20th, 2026.

So I'm really excited that we have a production.

And I just want, I'm sorry, but I do want to plug it.

Of course you do.

I want people to come.

It's going to be midwinter midwinter up North Philadelphia.

Writing a play and songs for a play is a different beast than it is.

It's what you're used to.

It is.

Is it fun?

Was it a fun experience?

Oh, it's so, it's, it's fun.

It's exhilarating.

I'm around a lot of creative people who are really schooling me on things that I'm enjoying learning about.

Cool.

It's thrilling.

It's thrilling.

So cool.

Yeah.

Okay.

Psilocybin, Rottweilers.

Yeah, my PSA is don't buy, don't buy from a breeder.

Just freaking adopt a dog.

They kill him every day.

And that's, I don't, I know you don't want to hear that.

People don't want to hear that, but

the shelters are overcrowded.

Even the no-kill shelters in Georgia are having to euthanize.

So do not

just wait.

You don't need, you can go online and find any breed you want.

That's right.

Rescue organizations.

Like, just do it.

Yep.

Thank you.

So much.

Y'all, this is beyond what I ever did.

We love you guys.

Our first studio show.

And maybe last.

Let's go.

We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media.

We make art for humans who want to stay human.

Forever Dog is our production partner, and you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard Things Show on TikTok.