Brandi Carlile Has Returned to Herself

Speaker 1 I don't know if it's just like my dikiness, but like I say, I'll say to like my, you know, seven-year-old be like, oh, you look so beautiful, I can hardly talk to you right now.

Speaker 1 And Catherine's like, that is not the right thing.

Speaker 1 Stop talking to her.

Speaker 2 Hey, pod squad.

Speaker 2 I'm sitting in my basement and waiting for Brandy Carlisle and Catherine Carlisle to arrive at my house.

Speaker 2 They're about to get here. They're about to come down here.
And Brandy is about to sit with me and talk to me about her new album, Returning to Myself, which is the most

Speaker 2 personal

Speaker 2 portrait of Brandy Carlyle's mind and heart that I've ever witnessed. And as Brandy's fan and more importantly, dear friend,

Speaker 2 I'm so excited for you to meet this side of Brandy.

Speaker 2 Kath's going to be here. Abby's going to be here.

Speaker 2 And I just don't think that you're going to want to miss this conversation because

Speaker 2 Brandy's about to get more vulnerable and raw than she ever has.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 the Carlisles are people who have changed our lives and who have become family to us.

Speaker 2 Brandy Carlisle's new album, which is my personal favorite that Brandy's ever written, is called Returning to Myself, and it is out tomorrow.

Speaker 2 When I was little, I was really, really cute. Are we recording?

Speaker 1 No, okay.

Speaker 2 I was a really, really cute little kid, and then I and I actually remember the energy of that power. Oh, I only remember energetic things.
Like, I remember that, the power of that. I remember

Speaker 2 like a leaning in

Speaker 2 of a tension, of a whatever, whatever, like a power in the world.

Speaker 2 And when I

Speaker 1 see,

Speaker 2 I got so

Speaker 2 the kids would say chopped. Like I just,

Speaker 2 the acne was so severe and the hair and the all the thing, I got so, it was like a dramatic turn and I could feel energetically the pulling away.

Speaker 1 Oh, whoa.

Speaker 2 Like the power of

Speaker 2 a beautiful little kid and then losing all the power. And like, I even felt it, I I feel like I felt it even from my parents like a

Speaker 1 wow what are we gonna do so I don't know

Speaker 2 anyway Kath sent me the new album a long time ago and I have avoided listening to it and the reason I avoid listening to your music when it's new is that I always feel like I have like a vase inside of me that is very full.

Speaker 2 And my job is to make no sudden movements

Speaker 2 to make sure that the vase doesn't spill out

Speaker 2 and your music

Speaker 2 makes things spill very much so i knew i was going to need some time i also our mutual daughter tish had told me repeatedly like when she came home from the studio with you she said

Speaker 2 something about this being the best album and I stopped her and said, you seriously think this is going to be Brandy's best album?

Speaker 2 And she said, No, what I'm saying to you is, this is the best album ever.

Speaker 2 And she's not like super dramatic about things that she says. So I was like, okay.

Speaker 2 Anyway,

Speaker 2 this last Saturday morning, I woke up at 7 a.m.

Speaker 2 and I was by myself upstairs and spent hours listening to every song

Speaker 2 all the way through, then over again.

Speaker 1 And I think that she was right.

Speaker 2 I think

Speaker 2 it's the most incredible expression of you.

Speaker 2 And I'm not musically knowledgeable. So I just want to talk to you about the lyrics and what it all means and like what you were thinking.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 What are the thoughts that were that created this album?

Speaker 1 Well, thank you.

Speaker 2 It's so fucking, do you know that it's so fucking good?

Speaker 1 I mean, I know I'm really, really, really

Speaker 1 in love with it. You know, I'm hesitating to like lean on cliches, like proud of it and stuff like that.
But the love I feel for the album is kind of it's jarring to me.

Speaker 1 So I want to listen to it all the time. And,

Speaker 1 you know, I feel awkward saying that, but like, I think it's good for me because

Speaker 1 I'm proud of all of my albums and stuff, but I've never like loved one so personally that

Speaker 1 it's not that I don't care what anyone thinks about it at the end of the day, but it's that like I don't care enough to change a single like thing about it.

Speaker 1 And it just, it's got me in some place that I haven't been had access to for a really long time.

Speaker 2 We have a word for that in writing, which is the word stat.

Speaker 1 Have you heard about that? No, tell me.

Speaker 2 So when I first started writing, I would get all my edits back from my editor and I would be like, oh, that is correct.

Speaker 2 And I would just change everything because I thought that mine was wrong and they were right and they knew.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then over time, I would get it back and I'd be like, eh,

Speaker 2 no.

Speaker 2 Then I learned the the word stat, which in publishing means I said what I said.

Speaker 2 It means leave it. Like, even if it's a mistake, it's my mistake.

Speaker 2 And that takes like

Speaker 2 being so personal in your writing that you're like, whether that's right or wrong, that's exactly what I meant. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I take responsibility for it. Yeah.
No matter what that means.

Speaker 2 So why did you choose Returning to Myself as the first song? Why is that, what does that mean? Because it feels like what you had to do to write the album. Yeah.
Is return to yourself.

Speaker 1 Well, it was the first

Speaker 1 thing I wrote when I put pen to paper was a poem called Returning to Myself.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I didn't know I was starting an album or anything, you know. It was like I came here to do the Hollywood Bowl with Joni.

Speaker 1 And the lead up to that was just incredibly challenging for so many reasons.

Speaker 1 But like the main reason was that Joni had returned to herself in such a way that she just chose very difficult music to play at the Hollywood Bowl. She had a point that she wanted to make.

Speaker 1 She had a stand that she wanted to take. It was even a last stand of sorts for her, you know, because she's already back to painting.
But

Speaker 1 basically,

Speaker 1 it was hard work for all of us to catch up to where Joni was when she wrote Hijira and learned those songs. And Hijira is an album all about this

Speaker 1 pilgrimage. you know, this kind of like

Speaker 1 journey into self.

Speaker 1 And so I'm sitting next to her, and I'm seeing these lyrics come across the screen. I'm seeing her rediscover her lyrics.

Speaker 1 And I just had a really profound experience of being totally consumed by the life of another artist

Speaker 1 and am reading these lyrics about returning to oneself and feeling uncomfortable about it, like convicted by it, and just kind of almost offended in a way.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I know that feeling.

Speaker 2 You're like justifying your way of being. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I'm like, I don't agree with this.

Speaker 2 You know, and

Speaker 1 meanwhile, I'm like not eating and I'm just drinking coffee all day long and like not sleeping and I'm just thinking about guitar chords. And

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 I put this trip to go to New York at the end of a work trip, I was calling it. Like I was going to end the Hollywood Bowl.

Speaker 1 I was going to get on a plane, fly to the East Coast, meet this guy called Aaron Desner, and

Speaker 1 write some songs with him. And I didn't know if the songs were from me or if they were from him or from somebody else or whatever, but I'm not a big co-writer.
I've never done it.

Speaker 1 And I want to shake myself out of

Speaker 1 this way of doing things. So I'm like, end of a work trip.
I'll finish the Hollywood Bowl. I'll go meet this nice fella.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 when I landed in New York City,

Speaker 1 it wasn't New York City. It was upstate New York.
And I didn't even pay enough attention in my life to know where I was going to be landing.

Speaker 1 And I ended up driving this rental car out to this middle of nowhere and to this guy's like barn. And I realized, to my horror and yours, that I had to sleep there.

Speaker 2 In a barn.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, it was a very nice barn, but it was like, I thought I was going to be, you know, in the city

Speaker 1 at, you know,

Speaker 1 at a hotel. And,

Speaker 1 you know, he went to bed and I went up to this room and realized that I had flown to the East Coast by myself without even an instrument. I didn't know what I was doing there.

Speaker 1 And I was still taken aback by the weekend and I just sat down and wrote the poem Returning to Myself and I was just so miserably and utterly alone.

Speaker 2 Miserably and utterly alone.

Speaker 1 It's a nightmare for me. Why?

Speaker 2 And like, what is it? Because I'm,

Speaker 2 you and Kath truly and deeply have taught me, like, if there's two ways of being, turning inward and outward, like inward to self or outward to community in life.

Speaker 2 And truly, you two have taught me to live a little more in community

Speaker 2 in lots of ways. A lot of the way I do things have changed, has changed since I watched how you guys live.

Speaker 2 Trusting people, losing yourself in other people in a beautiful way.

Speaker 2 What does,

Speaker 2 if there's like a consciousness that's always shoved either outward or inward, Do you feel more comfortable outward? And what does it mean to turn?

Speaker 2 Like, because you once told me, I don't self-reflect. What does that mean? That's all I do.

Speaker 2 What do you do then?

Speaker 1 I think I just kind of have a primal

Speaker 1 carnal way of being.

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 1 I know how to be alone with people.

Speaker 1 You know, I sit how I'm going to sit. I drink what I'm going to drink.
I do what I'm going to do. I lean where I'm going to lean.
You know, whereas my wife, she's British, so it's like, you know,

Speaker 1 if somebody knocks on the door, it's like, yeah, it's,

Speaker 1 yeah.

Speaker 2 You're performing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, and she has a hosting. It's like, do we have the right biscuits? And I'll go put the kettle on.
And, you know, she's got to have makeup on and like this whole thing.

Speaker 1 And I'm just like, you can come in. There's the fridge.
Right. Like, I am playing Zelda right now.
Or, or it might be like, what's up in a bottle of wine? And lean in. What is going on in your life?

Speaker 1 You know, I have to hear about this new person you're seeing or whatever. Like, it could be a really intense connection, or it could be just a total alone with someone thing.
But

Speaker 1 I don't like alone,

Speaker 1 I don't, I don't know why, I'm just really uncomfortable with it. And I'm actually now getting to a point because I'm in my 40s where I'm fascinated by why I'm so uncomfortable with it.

Speaker 2 So, what's in the aloneness? Like, you're sitting in the barn, yeah, and you're stuck with yourself, with no other distractions, you're not in the city.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 2 what

Speaker 2 is in there?

Speaker 1 I don't know. Like, none of the things that I like to do with my hands and distract myself with, I feel like I'm wasting time.

Speaker 1 I feel like I'm not getting any juice from anything.

Speaker 1 And I'm just kind of like

Speaker 1 dormant.

Speaker 2 So when you say

Speaker 2 in the song,

Speaker 2 Returning to myself is

Speaker 2 a lonely thing to do, but it's the only thing to do. What does that mean?

Speaker 1 It was the only thing I could do.

Speaker 1 So that just means, like this night, apparently this is the only thing

Speaker 1 I can do.

Speaker 1 No video games, no fishing pole, just like, you know, yeah, just

Speaker 1 a moleskin and a bunch of sharp pencils. I love sharp pencils.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay. So when you say, I love you and you and you.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Is that Kath and

Speaker 2 Evangeline and Elijah?

Speaker 1 At one point, yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay, I love you and you and you.

Speaker 2 And returning to myself is returning me to you.

Speaker 1 What does that mean?

Speaker 2 What does that mean?

Speaker 1 I think I've come to the conclusion that I had

Speaker 1 success in music kind of later in life than a lot of other artists do.

Speaker 1 And I just got like

Speaker 1 fire hosed with opportunity in a way that really triggered

Speaker 1 this ambition in me where I just wanted to do everything and be everywhere and take every opportunity, live every day like it's my last.

Speaker 1 I really don't have a problem staying in the moment, it's a superpower.

Speaker 1 But I do tend to believe that the only thing that matters is the moment.

Speaker 1 And so I think I just like did everything

Speaker 1 that I ever wanted to do in like six years

Speaker 1 and realized that maybe returning to myself is returning myself to my family.

Speaker 1 What

Speaker 2 is a woman overseas about?

Speaker 1 Like, you don't know.

Speaker 2 I mean, I'm deeper and deeper more obsessed. Kath just gave me a look.
I'm deeper and deeper more obsessed with each song, so just don't get straight in.

Speaker 1 But,

Speaker 2 okay, that song is about Kath.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2 And it starts with a line that says, A woman I know. Like I went abroad to see.
And then the end says, a woman no one knows.

Speaker 2 That is the last line.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So what are you saying with that song? It's so beautiful. Are you saying that you know Kath and no one else does? Or are you saying that you don't know Kath? What are you saying?

Speaker 1 Well, you know that feeling where it's like

Speaker 1 you've just maybe you've sat down with somebody like yourself who's who's just really engaging and charismatic who just asks like a lot of questions and the next thing you know you've just been talking

Speaker 1 and then you leave and you're like spiraling because you're like i just talked for two hours yes and i didn't ask a question and

Speaker 1 what was what is it about that woman like why didn't we go there

Speaker 1 in in terms of her

Speaker 1 you know why didn't we scratch the surface of her how did she trick me what was this what is this voodoo like

Speaker 1 how did i get drawn into this self-revealing, over-sharing, overly emotional, inside-out place?

Speaker 1 Who is she?

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I mean, I don't mean to overexpose my darling wife, but she does that.

Speaker 1 And she does it so effectively. You know, and interested is interesting.
So she's very interesting because she's very interested. But I know there's more in there.

Speaker 1 And I really felt it in a glaring way when we lost her dad.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 every time we'd go somewhere to sit down for dinner or we'd go to somebody's house in the evening, I would be like, okay, Cass is going to talk about

Speaker 1 losing her dad. But she would turn on the

Speaker 1 flip on the cath switch, and we'd only hear, you know, this poor person would get tricked into this,

Speaker 1 you know.

Speaker 2 Do you know what I'm talking about? Of course.

Speaker 1 I do. And so I just,

Speaker 1 I wrote the song, I guess, out of like love and frustration and just

Speaker 1 like,

Speaker 1 you know, you gotta

Speaker 1 open up. And even married to her, even I am

Speaker 1 sitting next to this puppeteer, you know, who's just so incredibly socially graceful and charismatic. And I'm proud to walk into every room with her because

Speaker 1 she just wins the day. Yeah, she does.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Everyone knows what you mean by that, yeah. Yeah.
But it is interesting because I don't think you ever leave Kath's presence without feeling absolutely loved and amazing about yourself. That's true.

Speaker 2 And then there is the question of, I wonder if Kath felt loved.

Speaker 1 That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 That's amazing about herself.

Speaker 1 Like, I wonder. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But it is quite dominant. And that's why it's spelled a woman overseas as E E S, because it's like, that is an environment that is controlled by a really emotionally intelligent person.

Speaker 2 It's witchy. It is.

Speaker 2 I respect it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's kind of hot. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Never change, Kat.

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Speaker 2 me without you.

Speaker 2 Can you talk to

Speaker 2 you without me? You without me, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 Can you talk about you? A lot of people think say me without you, which is in, I think that's interesting too.

Speaker 2 Well, tell us the origin. How did that start and what does it mean?

Speaker 1 What is it about? Well, it's funny how many songs in this album start with you and Abby and Tish,

Speaker 1 but

Speaker 1 that one did.

Speaker 1 Don't you remember?

Speaker 2 I mean, I know human.

Speaker 2 How did that one start? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, I came here to work with Elton, and you and Abby took, started taking Evangeline to her soccer

Speaker 1 lessons, you know, because we do things in a community. We do life together.
We're like very real friends.

Speaker 1 And I was going to take her to, like, she'd done like one practice. She was totally, you know, Abby was like doing the pep talks, the whole thing.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 She was like, got so invested so fast, and she wouldn't come to Vegas with me

Speaker 1 to go do the pink shows. And

Speaker 1 I was, I was like telling you backstage at Tish's show,

Speaker 1 actually, of all places, I was telling you,

Speaker 1 yeah, and I watched her walk over to the team and she had this, like, her shoulders were different, and she was like, you know, she gave me like a thumbs up, and she just walked away from me, and then she had this whole other personality while she was like addressing these kids.

Speaker 1 And it was so vulnerable, but like,

Speaker 1 I was like, well, there you are. That's, that's the you.
That's the one without, you know, without me. And you're like, the you without me.
And you stop me. And you, are you serious? You, you.

Speaker 1 I remember we talked about this. I didn't know we, oh, you stopped me and you and you said, wow, like, wow, think about that.

Speaker 1 And I went straight back that night and got in bed and just wrote that whole song.

Speaker 2 It's so amazing because, and it's so parallel because when I see Tish doing music,

Speaker 2 that is clearly you without me. She is only with me.

Speaker 1 I have no idea where can you fathom.

Speaker 2 But it's the same, like, you with Eva and soccer. Yeah.
It feels to me like, you know, the

Speaker 2 Geppetto and Pinocchio. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Geppetto's like, he's a real boy. Like,

Speaker 2 you just watch like your person come to life and be something that you didn't contribute to them.

Speaker 1 And you're like, I would be so terrified to do that. What is going to happen to you? Yes.
And I can't even reach you.

Speaker 1 You know?

Speaker 2 Yes. You're in a world where I cannot go.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And it almost

Speaker 1 doesn't matter how small the thing is. Like the people that have come up to me with the You Without Me stories now,

Speaker 1 that is my favorite part about my job is the way that my meaning universalizes and becomes someone else's meaning.

Speaker 1 And it's like I get such joy out of hearing, you know, a dad come up to me and be like, I was on the dance floor last night with my little girl. And she like asked for some time.

Speaker 1 And she joined another group of little girls. And I watched her try to move her body and look like everyone else and take this big risk, you know, right in front of me.
I couldn't reach her.

Speaker 1 She didn't even want me there. And I don't know what this feeling is.
And I'm like, that's the you without me feeling.

Speaker 2 And the dream is

Speaker 2 like one of the lines in that song that makes you want to jump off a cliff is

Speaker 2 the part that's give me a quick thumbs up before you go.

Speaker 2 I mean, we just dropped Tish off from college. And when I listened to that song, all I was thinking about was when we closed the door.
I mean, Tish and I are not unemotional people.

Speaker 2 So we were emotional. And it was all of us.
And I kept thinking, please just give me that little thing.

Speaker 2 Like, I'm leaving. Just please, like, make eye contact or like, just the little thing that just turn back.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Something.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And that's something she did.

Speaker 1 What did she do?

Speaker 2 It was just a look in her eyes. It was like an extra, bless you, Kathy.
It was just like an extra second of, like,

Speaker 2 I understand what this moment is. And like, mom, mom, you can do this.
It wasn't like, Tish, you can do this. Yeah.
It was a moment of, I understand, I'm marking this for us.

Speaker 2 I'm clocking this between the two of us with this tiny gesture. And you've got this

Speaker 2 to me. Yeah.
Is what it felt like. Yeah.
I've got this.

Speaker 1 Oh.

Speaker 1 I could see her doing that.

Speaker 1 I feel like

Speaker 1 the thing with, I mean,

Speaker 1 you guys' relationship is so unique with all of your children, but there's this thing with you and Tish

Speaker 1 that I can really identify with, where you have such a spiritual

Speaker 1 similarity, you know, the power of synthesis, understanding what's potent and what's important about a really big thing,

Speaker 1 debilitating empathy. Yes.

Speaker 1 You know, like a calm, quiet sort of wisdom that doesn't really have a bunch of judgment in it.

Speaker 1 All of these things. But then, and you're both artists, you're both writers, but she's this different kind of artist to you, so you're gonna see her singing as this like scary superpower.

Speaker 1 I do, you know,

Speaker 1 I bet, I bet you do.

Speaker 2 I do.

Speaker 2 Can you tell me the story of War with Time? Because Tish did, and it blew my mind. The airplane.

Speaker 1 Oh, that? Oh, that's that's just one of the stories with any of our people.

Speaker 2 Then tell me the whole thing, too. Whatever you want to talk about.

Speaker 1 No, that's a cool, that's a really specific story that I remember from,

Speaker 1 you know, I didn't go on an airplane until I was 17 years old. And that's like, that's quite an age, I think.

Speaker 1 And I was alone and I was just flying to Idaho, but it was like that feeling of when a plane takes off and it lands, nobody can, nobody tells you about that. Like you can't be warned about it.

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 1 you know, it was also

Speaker 1 pre-9-11 when I flew for the first time. And then like the second or third time I flew, I was going to the East Coast.
And that's like a whole other thing.

Speaker 1 And it was like right when JetBlue had put like TVs in the backs of seats. And that was a whole other thing.

Speaker 1 It was like this amazing technology. You can see like live news, live TV.
And there was a plane that was landing

Speaker 1 somewhere east, and the landing gear hadn't had turned and stopped. And so the wheels weren't facing the right direction.
And this plane circled around

Speaker 1 until it had to land, trying to figure out a way to get the landing gear to go back. Well, the news.

Speaker 1 had picked up on it and was sensationalizing what was going to happen to the plane when it landed. They were doing like cartoon, you know,

Speaker 1 pre-enactments, if you will, about what would happen to the plane if this thing was a stopper and showing the plane breaking apart and tilting to one side and the wing breaking off and landing in, you know, a fiery death.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 like about halfway through their campaign of,

Speaker 1 you know, morbid attraction, they had realized that the people that were up in this plane could see what they were doing

Speaker 1 because it was a jet blue flight.

Speaker 1 And I saw something in the media that I'd love to see now where it collectively took accountability for what it was doing and changed the whole

Speaker 1 sentiment to kind of that post-9-11, like galvanized, you're going to be okay, we're all behind you, you know, kind of like messaging.

Speaker 1 And I just remember staring at a screen in the airport, wondering what was going to happen to that plane when it landed. And

Speaker 1 it was absolutely fine. It shot like, you know, flames out to the side.

Speaker 1 But the impact, like the takeaway lesson for me was how damaging the collective of people can be and then how healing it can be if it wants to be.

Speaker 1 And it was just such a message for like a 19-year-old, 20-year-old, I don't know how old it was. kid you know and i also made me feel like i'm not home anymore like i'm in the big world now

Speaker 2 You know, is that the moment? That's what a war with time is about.

Speaker 1 It happened. That's what I mean about the broken wheel, you know.
But when I landed in New York City for the first time, I just was so grown up.

Speaker 1 It was like, this is it. I've arrived as a fully functioning adult.
And I think anybody that lands in a really big city for the first time feels that way, but New York has a specialness to it.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I just have this thing where it's like that was the moment for me, like that was the turning point. And I know that like

Speaker 1 our kids are going to have it wherever it is and whatever it is. And I want that.
But like, I'm never going to want it consciously. So don't even ask me.

Speaker 2 Yes. Just do it.

Speaker 1 You're smiling with so much recognition.

Speaker 2 I understand.

Speaker 2 100%.

Speaker 2 What,

Speaker 2 I think that one of the things that the kids and I have been talking about is how

Speaker 2 we haven't, I'm sure that it's out there, but we haven't felt a lot of music right now that really feels timely. It feels like of the moment.

Speaker 2 And this album really deeply does to me. And what do you, what does the song Human,

Speaker 2 what are you trying to tell people with that song?

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 the reason I sent you that song when I first wrote it is,

Speaker 1 you know, because I think I feel like I know you so well. And

Speaker 1 I think you know, and everybody's always known that you have this kind of canary in the coal mine thing about you where it's like you feel the weight of the world and the pain of the world in really sort of like unquantifiable ways that I think could be, you know, insurmountable at times.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I was just feeling that way too that night. And

Speaker 1 I started thinking about,

Speaker 1 and this was before the fires, too, just, only just.

Speaker 1 I started thinking about like the destructiveness of fires and how relevant and prevalent they are, you know? And there's nothing good about them.

Speaker 1 There's just like there's no silver lining, if you will.

Speaker 1 But in the Pacific Northwest, when the fire, wildfire smoke comes north, we get these wildfire suns.

Speaker 1 and they're just like

Speaker 1 big, beautiful, bright red bulbs of

Speaker 1 apocalypse. And

Speaker 1 they're so beautiful. And you can look right at them for once.

Speaker 1 And there's just something about that that is, I guess, the only byproduct of something so destructive that you can just sink your teeth in and go, okay, there's one good thing. And it's like,

Speaker 1 I feel like while we're fighting, while we're working, while we're problem solving, while we're living through a profoundly difficult time in human history, we have to remember that we're here for such a split second, just like the blink of an eye, that whatever tiny thing makes us happy and

Speaker 1 feel good and remind us of how innocent we molecularly are, like at our core, we have to do that thing, and we have got to find a way to be human and soft and

Speaker 1 filled with joy in whatever environment we're in.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And that's why I sent you that song because it was the night before the election. And I just felt you.
You could feel from

Speaker 2 halfway across the country.

Speaker 1 I kind of could, you know, and the responsibility that you feel for other people and that you take for other people. Like, you get on the phone and you...
a woman overseas with somebody for an hour

Speaker 1 until they're empty and they're light.

Speaker 1 You know, you do that.

Speaker 2 I told the story about the forest fire sun.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the little fire. And that text.

Speaker 2 The wildfire sun. Well, the first thing you said was, have you ever seen a forest fire? I'm like, Brandy, is it a screensaver you can send me? Obviously, I haven't seen it.

Speaker 2 So I sent you a wildfire sun. Yeah, then you sent me this.

Speaker 2 But I told that story from stage on tour a lot. And I realized halfway through, I was telling it like,

Speaker 2 so Brandy was saying,

Speaker 2 yes, all this, this is a bad paraphrase, but yes, all this horror is happening.

Speaker 2 But have you ever seen a sun in a forest fire?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then I realized halfway through that I need to change it because that's not what you were saying. And that's not what that moment is.
It's not a but. It's like that thing doesn't happen.

Speaker 2 It's not like look over here or look over there.

Speaker 2 It's like, no, no, no, that sun doesn't happen without the fire.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like both together. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's not even

Speaker 1 like look over your end, look over there. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Because you're not, you're, what you weren't saying wasn't spiritual bypassing.
It wasn't, I know it's sad, but there's other happy things you can look at instead. No.

Speaker 2 It's a way of looking at it that's like, there's actually some shit that wouldn't even be so beautiful if it weren't on fire.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Oh, thank you for recognizing that.
I'm always worried that like

Speaker 1 people think I'm Pollyannaing or something and they're looking for like a silver lining and I'm really not. I'm just saying we have to feel all the things within the moment.

Speaker 1 We have to meet the moment in every way, but it can't

Speaker 1 it can't eclipse like

Speaker 1 our very short lives.

Speaker 2 That's right.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

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Speaker 2 Okay, can you tell us a little bit about the long goodbye?

Speaker 1 The long goodbye?

Speaker 1 Well, it's like a memoir in three and a half minutes, isn't it? It sure is.

Speaker 2 It'll get you.

Speaker 2 It'll get you.

Speaker 1 Did it get you? Well, it got you. Which bit got you the most?

Speaker 2 Well, first of all, it got me from before I listened to it. Tish just told me the concept and it really

Speaker 2 just

Speaker 2 knowing the concept of the song.

Speaker 2 Which, can you describe what can you describe in your own words what the concept of the long advice?

Speaker 2 It's really similar to,

Speaker 1 well, it ends with the same sentiment that humans sort of begins with, which is just that, like,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 I've had this life

Speaker 1 where

Speaker 1 the first half of it was really chaotic and really formative.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 that for some reason it's awarded me some perspective in the second half of my life and more peace. I think everybody thinks of their childhood as like the peaceful time.

Speaker 1 You know, don't grow up too fast.

Speaker 1 You know, don't squander your youth. I'm like, give me every line.
You know, let my hair get thin. Let it all happen.
Because actually, this is the sweet spot, you know?

Speaker 1 And recognizing that right now is me, like, dragging my feet on the ground to slow the second half down.

Speaker 1 That's the bit I want to slow down.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 so I'm okay, you know, having lost those years or let those years sort of be behind me. And

Speaker 1 I'm writing about

Speaker 1 I'm writing about that journey and I'm writing about the chaotic, dangerous middle bit where anyone can die,

Speaker 1 where you can lose yourself to

Speaker 1 the hormonal takeover of your brain or whatever, or substance and, you know, all of the danger that we kind of like

Speaker 1 feed off of in that elbow of life. And then I'm writing about my, like the love of my life and my family and how like, oh, I'm so jealous for those years.

Speaker 1 Like, I want all that time back you know to be with Kath

Speaker 1 and but I would have screwed it up we would have screwed it up we would have fought over

Speaker 1 something

Speaker 1 small and and and wouldn't know each other you know so I'm just saying like

Speaker 1 don't speed up the second half of life don't pine for your for your youth

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 don't worry about

Speaker 1 growing up too fast. Worry about being worried about growing old.
Like, there's nothing to worry about.

Speaker 2 Like, when I, the only thing we have to worry about is worry itself. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 I just think that, like, one of the most profound things that I've ever seen, and this actually occurred to me when I was writing a long goodbye in the end, when I say,

Speaker 1 let it go, keep it light, let it snow, let the wind blow all night. It's only life, after all.
It's a blink of an eye. It's a long goodbye.
Is

Speaker 1 Meg and Andrea.

Speaker 1 It's that moment in the dock when the, you know, the old filters on the phone.

Speaker 1 That's just, everybody needs to see that. Everyone needs to see that

Speaker 1 who is thinking about aging as a problem.

Speaker 2 Yeah. All Andrea want to do is get old.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. How lucky are we if we can take that from Andrea

Speaker 1 and just change the way we think right now? Yeah. Like, I just want to get old.
Yeah. Thanks to Andrea.
That's such a gift. That's so huge.

Speaker 1 And Andrea left behind so many gifts, but like, that's, I think that's my favorite one.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I just want to get old.
And then

Speaker 2 talking to Andrea about bodies when Meg was talking to Andrea about bodies and body size and body shape and how it looks and image. And Andrea said, I don't care what my body looks like.

Speaker 2 I just want to have a body.

Speaker 2 Yep, same that hit, yeah, that really hit.

Speaker 1 That is like

Speaker 1 I want that moment in that documentary

Speaker 1 for everyone. Like, I wish, I wish those two sentiments specifically, like on everyone, yeah.

Speaker 2 What is what is your favorite song on the album? And also, I want to know what anniversary is. How do you, how do you,

Speaker 2 what was the origin of anniversary, and what is it about to you?

Speaker 1 God, I love like nobody sits down with the songwriter. It's like, what is anniversary about? It's like, it's so, it's such a friend conversation.

Speaker 2 No, it's just, it's, we're having such a friend conversation.

Speaker 1 I love it so much. Um, my favorite song on the album is Impossible for Me to Choose.
Okay, it is impossible for me to choose. Every one of those songs to me is like

Speaker 1 it cuts like a knife. Like, they are so important to me, those songs.

Speaker 1 And that's new. I am 44.
Catherine just reminded me, I'm not 45. I'm 44.

Speaker 1 I've never felt about songs the way I feel about these 10 songs.

Speaker 1 Like, I won't take any shit about them either. Like, I won't take any criticism.

Speaker 1 I'm not taking it. I don't know.

Speaker 1 I don't want to know.

Speaker 1 So, I don't, I don't have one. Okay.
I could tell you why I love each one.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I don't have a favorite because some of them I'm uncomfortable with. You know, anniversary is one of those ones that like makes my skin crawl.

Speaker 2 Why? That I wrote it.

Speaker 1 And I didn't like singing it. And I felt like so self-conscious and uneasy with it as a concept.
It was really the inside part out. And I just didn't really know that I wanted to do that.

Speaker 1 And in fact, right up until, as a writer, I think you can probably relate to this. Right up until the final day of Turning in the Master, I told myself, I don't have to put it on there.
Yeah,

Speaker 1 I don't have to.

Speaker 2 I can take it off and

Speaker 1 do a cover, or I can just be a nine-songs. There's nine-song albums.

Speaker 1 Right up until the moment that I said approved on the master, I had to like make myself calm down by like telling myself I wouldn't

Speaker 1 didn't have to put that song on there. It's so weird.

Speaker 2 What is it about it?

Speaker 1 It's just,

Speaker 1 I don't know. I don't like how extreme of consciousness it is.
I just really don't want you to see that far in to my thinking.

Speaker 1 That's so interesting.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It's so wonderful to see that far into your thinking.

Speaker 2 It's so good.

Speaker 2 I'm not saying it's a good experience for you, but it's a good experience for us.

Speaker 2 Wow. Okay.

Speaker 2 So when I was listening to the album, I kept thinking what I wrote down all over my whiteboard, like a beautiful mind situation by the time Abby had woken up, is I was thinking about this thing that happened that I've told the pot squad many times.

Speaker 2 When Tish was like seven or something,

Speaker 2 I woke up in the middle of the night and she'd run into my room. She used to do that in the middle of the night and like stand above me very creepily until I woke up.
It was very strange, yeah.

Speaker 2 And so she was doing that thing and she had this like terrified look on her face when I opened my eyes and I said, What's wrong?

Speaker 2 And she said, I woke up and I'm all alone in in there and it was dark and I'm all alone in there. And I said, well, that's fucking sleeping.
That's what sleeping is.

Speaker 2 Go back. And she said, no, mom, I'm all alone in here.
Like, I'm all alone in here and you can't get in and I can't get out. And it was like her first

Speaker 2 existential crisis. Like

Speaker 2 she had returned to herself enough to notice.

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 what's inside of us is like this separation from each other.

Speaker 2 And that was was terrifying for her. And I felt like as I was listening to every song, that every song is sort of about that.
It's like,

Speaker 2 can we be known?

Speaker 2 Are we all alone in here? Like,

Speaker 2 Woman Overseas is about Kath, but it's not really. It's about you, whether you know her or not.
And like, Joni is like about, do you know her or not? Or are you separate? Or Eva is like...

Speaker 2 The separation or nobody knows us. It's like over and over again, like, are we all alone in here? Do I know you? Do you know me? Do we ever really know each other? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like, when you return to yourself, yourself, it's like you remember

Speaker 1 I'm all alone in here.

Speaker 2 Like I'm just like a little cup of the ocean. Yeah.
And I'm stuck. Isn't there's like a line in there about like too much truth.
And if I'm

Speaker 2 something about being in jail, if I return to myself.

Speaker 1 Couldn't I find myself in jail?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
Like it's like the jail of separation. Am I making this up?

Speaker 1 No, you're not making it up. It's true.
It's all really true.

Speaker 2 It's so interesting. So when I'm I'm listening to the long goodbye, and it makes me want to, my love, every ache in me is just like

Speaker 2 I'm thinking, okay,

Speaker 2 the way I can handle this being true, which is that life is a long goodbye, relationships are a long goodbye. Like, we make we get together, and then we're like,

Speaker 2 I guess we'll do this life thing, which is we'll walk each other to the end, we'll walk each other home, as Ram Das used to say.

Speaker 2 Then

Speaker 2 I have to believe that the reason that ache is inside of us is because being that separate is actually not the ultimate truth.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Right? That, like, it's not.

Speaker 2 The long goodbye ends with like the first real hello,

Speaker 2 which is no more cup, all ocean, like all back together.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And that's why I think that's

Speaker 1 no more cup, all ocean, all back together. Yes, that's what I believe.

Speaker 2 And you just do the all-ocean now.

Speaker 1 Well, no, I'm not. I'm evolving.
You know, I withdraw. You know, sometimes my cup is tequila.
Sometimes I'm,

Speaker 1 you know, I'm cheeky and carnal and

Speaker 1 self-serving in ways that I don't mind.

Speaker 1 But that is the ultimate truth for me. And I like, I know that.

Speaker 1 But I do feel like we live in a time and an age where the pursuit of the self is seen as a virtue. And like the evolution that's like, you know, closest to enlightenment is this inward journey.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 the parts of that that I know are true bother me.

Speaker 1 But the parts of it that I know are not true bother me more.

Speaker 2 Tell me more because that's it. It's like, yes, you can find God and truth in self.

Speaker 2 And yes, you can find god and truth in others yeah but it can't be either or right yeah so what part i mean there's a line that's like the great i don't want to bow to the great and mighty me

Speaker 2 that is that what you're saying that the emphasis the cultural emphasis on individual on self that there's something missing there yeah doesn't feel true well is it evolving turning inward it's an easy way to be only kneeling at the altar of the great and mighty me it's like

Speaker 1 that that in some ways, the journey into self,

Speaker 1 it just ends with,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 it ends in there. It's a dead end road, you know?

Speaker 1 At least if we're going to do it, and we probably should do it, we can remove the blockage at the end of the road so that it's circular. It comes back out into the world again, you know?

Speaker 1 And actually, I think that's what the philosophy, you know,

Speaker 1 is getting at. But it's just that I feel like there are too many voices, there's too much noise, there's too much wellness, there's too many,

Speaker 1 there's too much influence to just serve the self. If it bothers you, cut it off.
If you don't understand it, stop having the conversation, you know,

Speaker 1 it's like,

Speaker 1 and that is seen as as

Speaker 1 as growth and evolution in like the day and age that we're living in. And I'm like, no, if you don't understand, keep asking the question, you know.

Speaker 1 Not to the point where we're getting into territory of like self-harm, you know, by like maybe going back to a toxic person or going back to a toxic place and trying to re-engage and trying to re-engage.

Speaker 1 That's different. That's where we are veering into

Speaker 1 something that's hurting us. But I do believe that

Speaker 1 the pull toward others,

Speaker 1 toward

Speaker 1 the sacrificing of the self, of the identity,

Speaker 1 it frees us. It frees us from our ego because self and identity are like the problem.
That's the cup, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's like, which, what self? What are you talking about? Are you talking about ego? Are you talking about personality? Are you talking about like the soul, the part that is connected to everyone else?

Speaker 2 The whole I and the Father are one self, which is a different self.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I am this, I am this, I am this. And I'm like,

Speaker 1 I am yours, I am yours, I am yours.

Speaker 1 Shit.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 You know how you tell that story about how when you were little,

Speaker 2 or it might have been last year, I don't know, but when you hear the sound of gravel.

Speaker 1 Car Wheels on a Gravel Road that you can hear. Car wheels on a gravel road.
My favorite. One of my favorite songs of all time.

Speaker 2 And tell us why, tell us the gravel, because I want to tell you what gravel means to me after you tell yours.

Speaker 1 Oh, okay. Well, I want to know.
I just, I've always had a dirt road. I've always lived on a dirt road.
I still live on a dirt road that I could probably afford to pave. But

Speaker 1 I don't, I love the sound of car wheels on a gravel road because they just,

Speaker 1 somebody's coming.

Speaker 1 Somebody's coming. And like, what's it going to be? Where are we going to go? What are we going to do? What are you going to say? Are we going to

Speaker 1 eat together? Are we going to fight? Are we going to watch a movie? Are you just going to sit quietly and read your book? But we're going to be together. Somebody's coming to be with me.

Speaker 1 You know, something new is about to happen. That's a car wheels on a gravel road to me.

Speaker 2 So I grew up in a house with a long gravel road. Okay.
Forever long gravel road.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 the sound of gravel, of car wheels on a gravel road to me, makes me clench and makes me like.

Speaker 2 So for me, when I heard car wheels on a gravel road, it meant I gotta,

Speaker 2 I can't be myself anymore. Like I, I automatically had a feeling of I have to get up, I have to do something.
I used to like be relaxing and then I'd get up and look, try to look busy.

Speaker 2 Like in my family, it was like you, you don't lay around. Like I was raised by a football coach.
It was just like, no pain, no gain. You didn't lay.
Nobody laid.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 But whenever you, I hear you tell that, I'm like, oh my God.

Speaker 2 Like you say, somebody's here. And I think, somebody's here.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 Like my

Speaker 2 performance self has to come out.

Speaker 2 It's just so interesting to me that

Speaker 2 you can have two such different responses

Speaker 2 to your most comfortable place, I guess. Mine would be alone

Speaker 2 and yours is like, what's going to happen? And I'm like, what's going to happen?

Speaker 1 Okay, but when. Okay, so let me go.
I want to, I actually want to get into this.

Speaker 1 So when you would hear the car wheels on a gravel road, were there ever times where you were like, oh, God, okay, look busy, brush my hair, put on clothes, wake up and be that Glennon, you know, like snap out of the aloneness, that space that you go into when you read and when you're like, you know, using your amazing fucking mind?

Speaker 1 Like, was there ever a time that that company surprised you though, and you were like, I didn't want this, and I'm so glad they're here. I'm so glad to be with this person now.

Speaker 1 Was there ever a time when you were surprised by how you felt when that face ended up at your door?

Speaker 2 Only when I have been in recent learning how to not perform.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 And I think that Abby and I have now

Speaker 2 found like a little

Speaker 2 ragtag group of people

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 2 when I hear the equivalent of their tires, I feel like I can just continue.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 That I don't have to change. Yeah.
Yeah. And that feels like maybe the most amazing thing that's ever happened to me somehow

Speaker 2 is finding people that, like when you say, I have people I can be alone with,

Speaker 2 what I hear is, oh, I get that now. Like I have people that I can still not change for or not perform for.
Yeah. And I guess that's real friendship, a real community.

Speaker 2 So now I think I get it.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 2 I just think of what you have taught me and you and Kath have taught me about

Speaker 2 finding love and community and space with others and in an outward way.

Speaker 2 That has truly changed the way that Abby and I do things.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I just always think about the gravel as the difference. Like you're learning to be comfortable with

Speaker 2 stuck in a barn.

Speaker 1 And I'm learning to be comfortable with people are coming. I'm not stuck in a barn.

Speaker 1 Get me to a barn stat.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, we've stayed at each other's houses before, you know, like we've spent nights with each other like in succession. You've been to my house and stayed.
I've been to your house in state.

Speaker 1 And so we've had like pajama hangs and stuff like that, you know, and watch TV. And

Speaker 1 so like we have found ways to like drop down with each other, like our two families. But I'm always conscientious about the temptation, even

Speaker 1 that I feel about wanting to extract the Glennon-ness from your mind.

Speaker 1 Like, when I'm, when I'm with you, it's like in that mind are some of the most powerful and interesting sentiments, like this perspective that's going to be expansive.

Speaker 1 It's like you, I could talk to you is like binging my favorite show.

Speaker 1 And so, I have to like fight the temptation to not switch you on and pull from, from you, you know, and it makes me wish that like, because sometimes I do,

Speaker 1 it makes me wish there was like

Speaker 1 a thing where it was like, what Glennon likes for fun is A, B, and C, because then I could do that for you.

Speaker 3 That makes sense.

Speaker 1 To get back, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 If I could take you fishing, then I wouldn't feel so bad about like calling you to talk through my family member who's an alcoholic and that I need to have

Speaker 1 a refresher and how to deal with that. I wouldn't feel so bad about calling you to like work through a problem, you know, because I would be able to take you fishing

Speaker 1 or like play monopoly with you or whatever it is that's like Glennon does this for fun, but what you do for fun is like, is like,

Speaker 1 what is it?

Speaker 2 It's a good question. And you did say to me the other day, which I have been thinking about non-stop,

Speaker 2 it's possibly your problem. You didn't say it this way.
You can never say it this way.

Speaker 2 But it was something like, maybe you're so upset because you're not obsessed with, you're not obsessed enough with anything else.

Speaker 1 Except maybe you're not obsessive enough.

Speaker 2 Which, by the way, I can't stop thinking about.

Speaker 4 Really? You

Speaker 2 have this album.

Speaker 2 Like you're surviving this time.

Speaker 1 This is what capsules do, yeah.

Speaker 2 Because you were making this album, which

Speaker 2 I'm looking at and thinking, That's so fucking weird because this album is everything everyone needs to hear right now.

Speaker 2 And it will be so healing. And I know that.
I'm not like, it will be. It's going to hit everybody where what they need to hear in this moment.

Speaker 2 And you were obsessing and making it during this time.

Speaker 2 And there's just something so beautiful about that.

Speaker 2 I told Abby about that. I'm like, oh, I just need to start writing again, maybe.

Speaker 1 Well, you're doing it too. It's like, my tools are so simple.
Like, I know what my tools are. And you're right.
Like, I feel like I'm helping, I'm helping.

Speaker 1 I'm using my tools and I'm doing my gift and I'm helping because like like my gift is like I'm an unhardener of hearts.

Speaker 1 I'm a I'm a this, I'm a that, and like I know what my purpose is and I've got my tools in my right hand and my left hand and so I'm going to work.

Speaker 1 And yeah, there is something really single-minded and focused about that. But you're doing that too all the time and so is

Speaker 1 Abby. You know, your mind expanders.

Speaker 2 Unhardener of hearts, that's so good. What do you want, what that we haven't talked about, do you want people to know about this album or you right now or anything?

Speaker 1 I mean, this is why,

Speaker 1 you know, I wanted to come here. This is why I wanted to talk to you.
It's like we could talk about credits and who played on it and who produced it.

Speaker 1 And we could talk about technical stuff and recording studios and vintage guitars all day, you know, and I'm going to do that for the rest of my day.

Speaker 1 But this is where, you know, we come to to talk about this

Speaker 1 about this angle on the album. And so I'm really only interested in talking about what you're interested in.

Speaker 2 Do you think that this whole returning to yourself is something that you're going to continue? Are you just going to be like, that's good. Onward.

Speaker 2 That was a nice experiment. That one.

Speaker 1 And yeah, that one. This will be the only album probably like it.
Like when I feel, yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 I've never been an observational songwriter. I am self-revealing in my songs, but there's only ever like two or three or four of them on an album, you know? Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 Because I'm in a family band and it's

Speaker 1 that's a really beautiful way to be, and I love being that way. But this is that one time where it just isn't like that.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I don't, yeah, I don't think that this continues.

Speaker 2 Okay, so you guys, what Brandy is saying is that you need to fucking pay close attention to this album.

Speaker 1 Right?

Speaker 2 It's not, we will not pass this way again.

Speaker 1 Yeah, this is the last time I'm getting in that barn.

Speaker 1 Last time I'm in that barn. I'm going to have a fishing pole.
I'm going to have a Zelda game. I'm going to have at least four other people.

Speaker 2 I love you. I love you guys so much.
Thank you. It was a gift to reveal as much as you did.

Speaker 2 I just have one last question. Was it tricky? Like, was it uncomfortable at all to write as honestly as you did? Like, I'm thinking in particular about you and Kath.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, Catherine, that's a really good question because,

Speaker 1 first of all, you have so much in common with Cath. I know you're going to totally understand this, but Catherine is such a writer.

Speaker 2 Yes, she is.

Speaker 1 And she's such an artist that I sent her two of these songs, the ones that are right on the edge of okay.

Speaker 1 And I said, we'll probably have to talk about these,

Speaker 1 you know.

Speaker 1 But she just wrote back, these are two of your best songs. We don't, we don't have to talk about it.
Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 She just really

Speaker 2 respects you as an artist.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and I really respect her as an artist.

Speaker 1 And when I listen back to those songs now, I hear how enamored I am

Speaker 4 with Kath.

Speaker 1 It's just, it's about being enamored. It might come off

Speaker 1 in another way, but

Speaker 1 it is what it is.

Speaker 2 It doesn't.

Speaker 2 It's a real, also, it's a real gift to the lesbian community because we're just always having to act perfect.

Speaker 2 Like we have the most perfect fucking non-human marriages ever so that we don't let down

Speaker 2 our tokenism as

Speaker 2 proof it can work or whatever the hell that thing is. Yeah.
So God, it just felt it get

Speaker 2 permission to be just a smidge human

Speaker 2 in relationship too. It's a gift.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think so too.

Speaker 1 I hope that I can't control how people take it, but I hope they take it that way And they know that there is a glimpse into the,

Speaker 1 I don't like the word normal, but into the like

Speaker 1 relatability of like all relationships so that all relationships can be valued equally.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I also think you know you did it if the person, even if you're telling the truth about them, but the person seems even cooler after the song's over.

Speaker 2 Like Kathy seems even cooler after that song's over.

Speaker 1 It's like

Speaker 2 a witchy energy of like, which is what she is, but that's how I felt.

Speaker 1 I was like, God, she's so cool. She is cool, man.
Yeah. She's as cool as they get.

Speaker 1 She's too cool.

Speaker 2 She's over there saying, oh, God.

Speaker 1 Is your mic muted because it's red?

Speaker 2 No, they would have told me that.

Speaker 2 Okay. All right.
We're done. You guys are free to go.
You are free to return to yourselves. I know it's a lonely thing, but it's the only thing.

Speaker 1 It's the only thing to do.

Speaker 1 Bye.

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human.

Speaker 2 And you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard Things Show on TikTok.