Cynthia Erivo — Wicked, Wild & Wise — is here!!!

Speaker 1 Wicked fans everywhere know what Oz looks like.

Speaker 1 And now, for the first time ever, they'll know what Oz smells like because Gain's Wicked for Good limited edition laundry collection lets fans experience the magic and joy of Oz with every sniff.

Speaker 1 Well, we can do hard things, people.

Speaker 1 Today we have the

Speaker 1 Alphaba herself,

Speaker 1 Cynthia Arrivo, who I knew was going to be magic. And I had absolutely no idea how mind-blowing and heart-swelling and life-changing spending an hour with this force of nature is.

Speaker 1 Just hold on to your little witch hats because this is a ride. Cynthia Arrivo is a good is a Grammy, Emmy, and Tony award-winning actress, singer, and producer.

Speaker 1 She burst onto West End and Broadway stages in the color purple, oh silly, and has since taken the world by storm.

Speaker 1 Arrivo most recently starred as Alphaba opposite Ariana Grande's Glinda in part one of the record-breaking film adaptation of the hit musical Wicked.

Speaker 1 Wicked Part 2 is being released this week on November 21st and Cynthia's brand new book Simply More, which is such a beautiful offering to everyone who wants to know how she became as magic as she is, is available today.

Speaker 1 This conversation is surprisingly personal. She teaches us how she learned to trust, ask for help,

Speaker 1 how she prepares and chooses roles, how she makes decisions in her life. This conversation is an offering.

Speaker 1 Enjoy.

Speaker 1 Hello.

Speaker 1 Hello. How are you?

Speaker 1 Oh, we're

Speaker 1 excited.

Speaker 1 We've just been laughing.

Speaker 1 We've been just talking and laughing about how excited we are to meet you in real life right now. And you were just giggling about, your book is so wonderful.
And you were just giggling about.

Speaker 1 this part in it that made us realize we have no self-respect at all and really

Speaker 1 really

Speaker 1 just epitomizes your freaking elegance and self-respect, which is the fact that you get dressed up for bed. No, I do.

Speaker 1 So good. I do, I really.

Speaker 2 I've been doing it for a long time. I just, I don't know.
Fashion sort of like has a through line in my whole entire life.

Speaker 2 And I, I, so I don't know when, but I realized that if I feel really good before bed, I, I don't know, the evening just feels better.

Speaker 2 So I have like matching pajamas and sometimes it's like loungewear that feels really good. And it's,

Speaker 2 there's always an outfit. There might be a robe to go with the pajamas.
There's always a slipper that matches the pajamas and the robe. Yeah, it's a real thing.

Speaker 1 How early do you transition to this? Is it like I'm home for the day? Now I'm getting into my

Speaker 2 when I'm home for the day, there's like loungewear to be in. I cannot be in the clothes that I've been in the whole day when I'm home and I'm not going anywhere.
but I don't get into my pajamas before

Speaker 2 that. So, if I'm home late enough and I know that the next thing I'm doing is going to bed, then it's pajamas immediately.
But I pick the thing.

Speaker 2 I'd never just like, let's throw in these.

Speaker 2 It's never been that.

Speaker 1 So, is it three outfits mainly a day? You're out in the world. I mean, it depends on the day.

Speaker 2 It really depends on the day. It really depends on the day.
It depends on the day. Truly.

Speaker 2 If I'm just work, me going to work, like I'm I'm on a set and I'm coming back, I dress up even though I'm only wearing these clothes for the journey to the set and then I'm putting on a costume and then coming.

Speaker 1 Wow, Cynthia.

Speaker 2 I don't know, I just feel good.

Speaker 2 You know, if I start the day the way I want to start the day, then everything else sort of like follows after that.

Speaker 2 And if I come back and end the day how I want to end the day, coming back to myself, I guess maybe that's what it is. Maybe finding the outfit and finding the thing that I want to wear to to rest

Speaker 2 also is a way of like recentering, I think.

Speaker 2 You know, making a decision that's just for me.

Speaker 2 It doesn't matter if anyone sees it, you know?

Speaker 1 And it's like setting a boundary, too. It's like how, it's like my friend says, when she picks up her wine, which maybe this isn't the healthiest boundary,

Speaker 1 but that's her way of being like, it's fucking over. Like, nobody, I am not responsible for anyone else.

Speaker 2 The day is done.

Speaker 1 I'm not leaving. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Cool. Amanda, tell Cynthia what you were wearing when you read that part in her book.

Speaker 1 Oh, it was like a personal intervention to me because I was reading the book and I was wearing a sweatshirt and like

Speaker 1 offensively old like shorts. And I realized that I had been,

Speaker 1 that is what I wore the night before to bed. and had been wearing it all day and was about to go to bed in the same thing.
And then I'm, and, and I was like,

Speaker 2 you know, the solve to doing that? Finding something that feels similar, and you just get multiple pairs of it.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 So that the refresh is, there's always a refresh, but you know it's comfortable.

Speaker 2 I have like certain brands that I go and wear to bed.

Speaker 2 I just rinse, repeat. I find the things that I like.
I get them in several different colors. And I know that, oh, this feels really nice.
Actually, today I want to do, I want the wide trousers.

Speaker 2 Actually, I want the really like thin trousers or I want the long sleeve. Or it's the same brand, but they it's the same, it's like a uniform that I like to wear.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, it reminded me of the book throughout the book where you're talking, it's just so dignified, it's such a self-respect thing to be like, This matters not because I'm going out in the world, but because I'm into myself, that's right,

Speaker 1 and that there is no big days or small days. That, like, that's right, every it's a big moment because I'm here with me, exactly, exactly.
Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, speaking of very big moments.

Speaker 1 Yes. This is a big week.
So on this day,

Speaker 1 today,

Speaker 1 your book, Simply More, comes out. And it is so beautiful.
So beautiful, Cynthia. It's so beautiful.

Speaker 2 Thank you very much. Thank you.
It's very honest. I haven't really

Speaker 2 held anything back necessarily. And I didn't, I don't know if that's what I intended

Speaker 2 when I started, but I think as I started, like, as the words came out, as I started figuring out things, and I think even this was sort of a discovery, oh, that's the thing I learned.

Speaker 2 So, and then it just became really raw and honest. So, I'm so excited to, a little bit trepidatious and scared, but I'm really excited to share it with people.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I've had some real sort of like bumps along the way, and I've had to really learn some things about

Speaker 2 the world, about what I do, and about me in the process.

Speaker 2 So, to be able to share just even little, little like kernels of it is really helpful.

Speaker 1 can you hear my dog in the background yes those are one of your two pups i'm so excited it's wonderful can i may i have them come and oh please

Speaker 1 hold on give me two they are wanting mama

Speaker 1 come on there you go

Speaker 1 okay

Speaker 2 So you might hear them jingle and jangle. They've just been wandering around, but she's sort of like, this is Gigi.
The other one is over there who's Caleb, who

Speaker 2 they're sort of sweet. They're with me a lot.

Speaker 2 They've been with me on days when it's really, really tough. And they've been very, very helpful.

Speaker 2 These little spirits. So, yeah.

Speaker 1 How are they helpful to you?

Speaker 2 They've got very different personalities.

Speaker 2 Caleb is sort of his own. entity.
He kind of wanders, kind of, he always does a reckey of a place.

Speaker 2 When I say a reckey, he like searches a place out, wants to know where it is and then when he's done he sort of just goes away and it's like everything's safe gigi is like uh my shadow

Speaker 2 she's currently right here she just wants to be next to me

Speaker 2 and she's they're both very good at knowing when something is up or i'm not feeling very good because they come right next to me they come right to me and they just want to stay in the space yeah they're both just really

Speaker 2 on the on days when i've been alone and it and i felt very lonely these two little spirits have been very, very helpful.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I always wonder if people who are

Speaker 1 well-known in the world, beloved, ambitious, all the things, it feels like those people that are in my life have very special connections with their animals. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I always wonder if it's like

Speaker 1 a singular being that the reason I love my dogs is because they're the only beings I know who love me more the less I do and the more still I am and the less I move around.

Speaker 2 I had never thought about it that way.

Speaker 2 I've never thought about it that way. And that is actually the truth.
The less I do,

Speaker 2 the stiller I am, the happier they are. If I'm just sat still, and they can just lean or lounge on me, happy.

Speaker 2 Very, very happy. She's literally just, this Gigi is sat right here doing absolutely nothing and she is pleased as punch.
She's like still as anything.

Speaker 2 She looks like a little cartoon character sat by me. It's like, and it's the same for the other one.
If, if I'm, it's when I make too much noise and I'm moving around that he just he does,

Speaker 1 yeah, exactly, exactly. I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed.

Speaker 2 Yeah, just that

Speaker 1 when will she start? That's how we want to be loved, right? Yeah, just for doing nothing, just for being ourselves. Yeah, they don't

Speaker 1 have to hard when you you become an empire unto yourself as you have become is it hard

Speaker 1 to

Speaker 1 find people

Speaker 1 who can mirror that kind of love because you're i mean i'm sure there's so many people are like you could do this why don't you do this everybody will make more money if you do this like is it is it hard to find that in people as opposed to animals I think if I was to, I think if everything was to have happened now, it would be really difficult.

Speaker 2 I think because it's taken time, I've been really lucky in that I've picked up my people along the way. And so, those same people that I picked up along the way,

Speaker 2 some are not

Speaker 2 there along the journey anymore, but those who are with me on the journey are still with me on the journey.

Speaker 2 So, I could call my best friend and will still, he'll still cuss me out if I'm doing something stupid. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 He'll ground something.

Speaker 2 Right. And my best friend that I did a show with when I was in

Speaker 2 2013, when absolutely nobody knew who I was,

Speaker 2 we will still call and cry over the phone and talk about everything. That's my, she's my, her daughter is my goddaughter.

Speaker 2 So, you know, I still have really good

Speaker 2 groundwork before coming into all of this. So, but, but I do think if it was now,

Speaker 2 it'd be really hard. I'm, I feel like I'm a good judge of character, so I have picked up new friends along the way because I feel like people reveal themselves to me quite quickly.

Speaker 2 I'm not sure why, but it happens. So, I know I can know about a person really, really really fast.
People tell me about themselves very, very fast.

Speaker 2 And I've, I'm, you know, I, I try to honor that because I, I, something about me makes people feel comfortable enough to share themselves.

Speaker 2 So I try to hold that, but, but I also know when people aren't right for me quite quickly.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 How do you decide who to trust?

Speaker 2 I don't know. It's a feeling.

Speaker 2 I think it's just a feeling. And sometimes,

Speaker 2 sometimes I'm not necessarily in the place to trust anyone. and so there's definitely some moments where it's just like everyone stay over there, I'm gonna be over here.

Speaker 2 There are other times when it feels really uh easy, you know.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think people reveal themselves unknowingly, and so those people I can always spot those who are just like, I just want to be there for you,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 1 yeah.

Speaker 1 Your book is coming out today, yes, uh, Wicked Part Two is coming out on Friday.

Speaker 1 This is, okay, so my daughter was

Speaker 1 alphabet for Halloween, is obsessed. We have been listening to the soundtrack, just trying to derive meaning and

Speaker 1 put symbols together. And then this song is this.
And she, she is, it is like a total immersion program for her. And I

Speaker 1 can imagine that that is happening all over the globe right now.

Speaker 1 So I wonder for you, like, what does it feel like in this moment in this particular universe we're in, where everything is, everyone is in need of a lot of influence and a lot of meaning and everything to be in that position

Speaker 1 where

Speaker 1 you are about to influence the world in such a grand way? Does that, what does that feel like in your body to know that that is happening?

Speaker 2 I think part of me is shutting the immensity out a little bit so that I can manage it as it comes, you know? I'm really, I'm really

Speaker 2 moved by how much people have connected with this, this character, these characters, this music, those words.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 if I took on the whole thing, I don't think I'd be able to really function very well. So I take it on like bite-size.

Speaker 2 I think my favorite moments are when I meet an individual who says, this means this to me, or I listen to this song when I'm feeling really down, or i listen to this song to get myself hyped up or you know that then i can take it in pieces and then i can really appreciate in the moment what's going on you know yeah

Speaker 2 i think that's what's helpful

Speaker 1 well i'll tell you one little story of my wicked story um we have a mutual friend love you jay jones she's a yes i love her i love her that's my big sister

Speaker 1 i she's uh been my my dear friend for a very long time, too, and like a real-life friend, not just like you know, interwebs friends.

Speaker 1 And we've done a lot of racial justice organizing work together. And usually, Levy gets puts me in charge of the white ladies.
So that's an exciting time for me.

Speaker 1 She's smart. She's like, I'm not going anywhere near those people.

Speaker 1 She says they're going to ask to talk to the manager, and you are the manager.

Speaker 1 So we've been through a lot of that kind of work together. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 when I saw Wicked in the theaters with my family, I saw it, you know, we see things as we are, and I saw it as an incredible story about patriarchy and fascism and women who

Speaker 1 bind together and the limitations when black women and white women try to work together and how white women often

Speaker 1 are on board until their proximity to power is threatened and they choose the empire above.

Speaker 1 So I left the theater crying, and my first text was to Lovey, and I didn't explain any context of where I was. I just said, I will always get on the broom with you.

Speaker 2 Does she know? Does she get it immediately?

Speaker 1 Immediately. Immediately.

Speaker 1 She got it immediately. I know she got it immediately.
Yeah, that's her.

Speaker 1 Does that is that how you see wicked? Is that how everyone sees wicked?

Speaker 2 Like, what it's interesting.

Speaker 2 Some people see it like that. Some people see it, don't see it at all.

Speaker 2 Some people see the friendship and how they've been tested and how they have different things to do or they have different decisions to make.

Speaker 2 Some people see it as a betrayal because she doesn't get on the broom. But some people see it as a decision that

Speaker 2 she has to make because that's the way she can do good or believes she can do good, or some people see it as a seduction of what

Speaker 2 could be or something that she's always wanted. Now it's in front of her, and she has to decide whether or not to leave it behind and just chooses to leave her friend and

Speaker 2 go with power. And I think I can see all of that.

Speaker 2 Especially as a person who's playing the character, I can see how difficult it would be for Glinda to choose her and go on the broom. But I can also feel what a betrayal is when she doesn't.

Speaker 2 But I can also go, maybe she's just not, people aren't ready when you want them to be ready. Sometimes it takes a long time for a person to go, actually, I think it's time for me to get on the broom.

Speaker 2 I think it's time for me to go. It takes time for people to get to that decision.
We don't always reach the same place at the same time. And so

Speaker 2 there's no blame in that. it's just as

Speaker 2 human beings and entities we our journeys are different we get to the same destination at very different times you know if we get to the same destination at all

Speaker 2 you know

Speaker 1 so generous and beautiful

Speaker 1 and now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to we can do hard things for free

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Speaker 1 That is like home-based for me. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Even when it's like a little gross.

Speaker 1 Also, all things Christmas or holidays.

Speaker 1 Facts for you.

Speaker 1 Pies baking and like pine needles and cinnamon, which these are all just represented for me in candles because I'm not actually doing any of those things.

Speaker 1 But candles that represent people cooking at Christmas. That's good.
Do you want to know mine? Please tell us yours. Okay.

Speaker 1 Fire burning over a campsite fire. Like the anticipation for potential s'mores feels exciting.
And then jasmine blossoming. I love the smell of jasmine.
That's a good one, Jasmine.

Speaker 1 Sissy, what about you?

Speaker 1 Okay, mine are coffee, salt air, and whatever the scent is of freshly cleaned floors when I walk into my house.

Speaker 1 And I think it's because coffee reminds me of the will to live and salt air transports me to my happy place and clean floors tell me the house is sparkling and all I have to do is relax.

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We love Gain and we love Oz.

Speaker 1 I was going to ask about, I mean, your journey and your generosity

Speaker 1 is profound throughout your whole book. And one of the very generous pieces that must have been so difficult for you is your journey with your father and kind of coming to terms with that

Speaker 1 the way that shaped kind of your life in many ways.

Speaker 1 Can you just, are you willing to tell us a little bit of that story on the tube platform and just what it kind of, how you think,

Speaker 1 how you kind of deconstructed that role throughout your life when you look back on it?

Speaker 2 I think, so what happened was

Speaker 2 my father,

Speaker 2 I'd gone to pick up a travel card. We call it a travel card here.
It would be a metro card

Speaker 2 from him at a tube station. We hadn't really ever really been permanently in each other's lives.

Speaker 2 My mum really did give me the space to want to get to know my father and him the space to get want to get to know me. And it was never really, the opportunity was never really taken,

Speaker 2 except for very occasionally. And he, one of the things that he would do was help us get a travel card to and from school.

Speaker 2 So we'd get a travel card, it would last the month, and we'd be able to make our way to and from school.

Speaker 2 At this point, I was at, uh in secondary school, I want to say, just coming into uh sixth form, it's the bit before college. And I meet him at the station, and um, he just uh

Speaker 2 decides he doesn't want to anymore.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I'm confused, so I ask why. And at this point, as a 16-year-old, I don't, I don't really have

Speaker 2 um,

Speaker 2 I'm not in possession of me not getting

Speaker 2 angry. I'm not, I don't know how to not do that.
So I lose my shit at the

Speaker 2 train station. I was like, this one thing that you have to do, and I don't understand why we're having this conversation right now.

Speaker 2 I remember the ticket office guy gets involved and says, you shouldn't talk to your father like that. And I was like, you need to be quiet.
This is nothing to do with you.

Speaker 2 You have no idea what is happening here. I don't understand why this is happening and you need to get this because it's the one thing you do.

Speaker 2 all of this goes on we go back and forth and then he decides i'll get the travel cards but i never want to see you again

Speaker 2 he gets the travel cards and goes off in the other direction and i

Speaker 2 i i'm in shock like it like

Speaker 2 i don't think i realized i would be in shock but i was in shock and i didn't realize it would hurt as much and it did hurt I go to get on the train and because I'm like in a daze in tears, I go in the wrong direction.

Speaker 2 So I turn around to go in the other direction. He's coming in, I spot him coming in towards me and he passes me by like he's never met before.

Speaker 2 That is the last time we had had a conversation.

Speaker 2 We have seen each other twice since then at a wedding and we have not spoken.

Speaker 2 Two different weddings, two different times, one when I was 25, the last one I was, I think 35, strangely enough. And we have not talked, we haven't spoken since then.

Speaker 2 And what i recognized as i've gone back is that from that moment on i think i was trying to prove that i was worthy of being loved or trying to prove

Speaker 2 one day you'll see that you you've made a mistake

Speaker 2 but that doesn't sustain yeah after all right just it doesn't sustain it doesn't work and and you build up a sort of resentment that uh starts to colour the things you do

Speaker 2 And I felt really closed off. And so I, I think the first time I did any kind of therapy was probably when I was

Speaker 2 about 20,

Speaker 2 I want to say 26 or 27. It's the first time I did some therapy when I sort of realized that that had been a colour.

Speaker 2 in my life and the way I was treating other people was as if they were going to leave. So I wouldn't really, I'd never ask for help.
I wouldn't,

Speaker 2 I would do most things on my own because I was sure that someone was going to leave.

Speaker 2 And so instead of trusting that someone might be around and want to help, I would push people away immediately and just I'll do it myself. I don't need anyone to do this for me.

Speaker 2 Much of my life has been me getting things and doing things

Speaker 2 on my own. Now,

Speaker 2 whilst there's been a really wonderful character building thing in that and it means that I've grown in independence,

Speaker 2 it meant that

Speaker 2 my trust of people

Speaker 2 was lacking.

Speaker 2 And I didn't have much, and I lost the ability to ask for help. And so, when I get to this

Speaker 2 sort of inflection point

Speaker 2 during the colour purple,

Speaker 2 I'm sort of drowning in all the things that are happening because it happens really fast.

Speaker 2 The colour purple happens, and all of a sudden, there's loads of things to do, and I have no idea how to do it on my own, and I have no help.

Speaker 2 It takes someone in the show, I think it was my director, who was like, you need help.

Speaker 2 You need an assistant. You cannot do this on your own.
You cannot remember all these dates. You can't remember where you're going.
You're going to show up late to everything if you're not careful.

Speaker 2 You're going to miss things. You need help.
And I really didn't know how to do that because I was sure I could just do it on my own.

Speaker 2 And at that point, I thought, I really have to figure out why it's so hard for me to to ask

Speaker 2 because I just never, I never did. I really didn't ask for help very often at all.
I would be happy to help other people. I just wouldn't accept a lot of help myself.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 as time went on and I started sort of

Speaker 2 decoding and unpicking

Speaker 2 that thread that was going through my life, I

Speaker 2 had to relearn how to be

Speaker 2 a little more open to

Speaker 2 getting help. And sometimes, and also knowing that not everyone is going to abandon you.
And also that if someone leaves, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are abandoning you.

Speaker 2 Sometimes it's necessary for them to leave. That that isn't an offence to you personally, that it is just another part of their journey and another part of yours.

Speaker 2 It doesn't mean that that's what everyone else will do, you know?

Speaker 2 I've had, it's lots of learning. Lots of opportunities.

Speaker 1 That's so interesting. That's how you just described the Alpha of a Glinda situation.
Correct. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's how you're seeing things now.

Speaker 2 Yeah, which is how I see. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. That's so interesting.
Do you think that your,

Speaker 1 one of the things I loved so much about your book is just your daily commitment to be seen, even if it means no props on an on an audition stage, even if it means no hair so that people can see your face.

Speaker 1 Yeah. That's probably why people reveal themselves to you you because you are so revealing of yourself to them.
Do you think that has any mirror to that subway moment where you're not being seen?

Speaker 2 And he's just watching.

Speaker 1 I'm sure it does.

Speaker 2 I'm sure it does.

Speaker 2 I'm sure it does.

Speaker 2 I remember feeling so small in that moment.

Speaker 2 And I've had moments after that that made me feel really, really small and invisible.

Speaker 2 There's that moment in the book that talks about that moment in drama school where I'm asked to sing for someone else, where literally I'm meant to be invisible and just, and my voice is the thing that is being used, but I am totally unseen.

Speaker 2 And so I think

Speaker 2 that was a really like massive moment for me because it struck a chord in that I was so mad at myself because I felt like I had betrayed

Speaker 2 myself and a gift that I had

Speaker 2 and used it in the wrong way.

Speaker 2 I felt like

Speaker 2 if shame is a feeling, that's the moment I felt I felt shameful. I felt shame in that moment because I felt like I had

Speaker 2 misused my gift and I never wanted to do that again. And I realized that part of that was how I saw myself and how I wanted other people to see me.
I never wanted to feel invisible again.

Speaker 2 But that meant in any way, shape or form. I never wanted to walk into a room and have someone see somebody else.
I didn't want to ever bring another person into a room

Speaker 2 unless I was bringing another person into a room, but it was through me.

Speaker 1 Ah, that's so beautiful. Okay, for the listener, I want to give, because everyone will see some part of their life and shame in that story.

Speaker 1 But this is when Cynthia during school has been overlooked, given small roles constantly and was not cast in one of the major roles.

Speaker 1 And then the the two women that were cast in the major roles got sick.

Speaker 1 And so instead of putting her on stage to sing the parts, they asked her to go behind the curtain, sing for the parts while the women in the front who were sick lip-synced.

Speaker 1 This is an analogy that is so hurtful, but every when I heard that, I thought immediately thought of like three moments in my life where I was like, I've done that.

Speaker 1 I have sold myself to please people. Correct.

Speaker 1 And that's so.

Speaker 1 So you, but you're saying not only for, it feels like a

Speaker 1 similar betrayal if you're doing it on behalf of lifting up someone else or if you're putting not even your true self forward.

Speaker 2 Yes, I think so. Because there's something that comes from

Speaker 2 and it takes time, obviously, to discover who you are completely. But if the journey, if there's like a daily commitment to finding out who who that is,

Speaker 2 you're always, you're always revealing a little bit of yourself. You're always going to be committed to, this is,

Speaker 2 hi, I'm here. It's me.
I'm just, I'm, I'm trying to show up as, in as much of an authentic way as I possibly can.

Speaker 2 And the word authenticity gets used so often, but, and I don't know that everyone really knows what that

Speaker 2 means, but it means even the rough parts. Like, you know, when I,

Speaker 2 I was, I was just, when I go to the theater, I'm, I rarely, I have makeup on because I just did a photo shoot, but

Speaker 2 when I go out and I go to the theater, I don't have, I never wear any makeup whatsoever.

Speaker 2 And I know that people will be like, can we take a photo? Do you want,

Speaker 2 but I, I also want people to know that when you look at me, you actually see me. This is what I wake up looking at.
This is what I go to sleep looking at. So this is the person you see.

Speaker 2 This is the person you meet. So that you're never confused about who's stepping into the room.

Speaker 2 And so, I have tried my best to find ways to make sure that people understand that this is who you're going to get. So, when we get on a set, sometimes people are

Speaker 2 immediately scared of me, I don't know why, or immediately sort of

Speaker 2 apprehensive about what I'll be like. But I'm the same as I am on the first day on the last day.
So,

Speaker 2 the door is open. You can always come and talk to me.
And I will get to know every,

Speaker 2 I'm not a person that says I love you to every single person I meet.

Speaker 2 I am a person that will get to know you implicitly before I tell you I love you. So that by the time I say it, I know that your daughter's name is such and such.
She's going to this school.

Speaker 2 You drive this. You love your wife whose name is Rose.

Speaker 2 all of the information. So I know you.

Speaker 2 That for me is the way I function when I'm moving through a space. I want to know people.

Speaker 2 You can't know everyone. And that means that the connections I make are really genuine.
They mean something. And so to the person who I make the connection with, they know it means something.

Speaker 2 It's not frivolous. I don't just throw it away.
But that comes with,

Speaker 2 I'm okay with who I am. And so I'm going to keep revealing that person to you.
And hopefully you'll feel comfortable enough to reveal that to me too.

Speaker 1 What's the hardest part of you to get comfortable?

Speaker 1 I ask why

Speaker 2 a lot.

Speaker 2 I ask why a lot. And I think that really freaks people out.

Speaker 2 I question things.

Speaker 2 And I think people aren't used to a person going, why?

Speaker 2 I don't understand. Can you explain that to me?

Speaker 2 Why would you say that?

Speaker 2 What does that mean?

Speaker 2 But genuinely wanting to know the answer. I think often we hear why or what what does that mean or I don't understand as an attack.

Speaker 2 Like I've said something wrong. So how come you don't understand immediately? But I actually genuinely am okay with not knowing the answer.
So I'll ask for it. You know?

Speaker 2 I also don't mind if you say, I don't know. Then I go, okay, well, should we figure it out then? But I think

Speaker 2 that's a hard part to accept of me. And I expect, I think I'm, I think I expect a lot of myself.
So I expect a lot of other people.

Speaker 2 that can be tough yeah

Speaker 1 it was cool for me to read that in the book about even even in when you're in a meeting yeah just everyone goes to the what what are we doing what are we doing what are we doing yeah which if you don't ask why

Speaker 1 here

Speaker 1 then you can what your way down any road that you're completely on the wrong road then you realize

Speaker 2 why am I doing this that you're in a place that you didn't want to be in enclosed that you don't want to be in sitting with people you don't want to be with and you have no idea why.

Speaker 1 That's right, that's right.

Speaker 2 And you'll set that up.

Speaker 1 You just described a lot of people's lives. Yeah, this is the thing.

Speaker 2 Because we didn't stop to go, can you please explain to me what this will do for us, or

Speaker 2 why I'm doing this?

Speaker 2 Why do I need to do this? Why do I want to do this?

Speaker 2 And if a person can't give you an answer, we should probably not do that then.

Speaker 1 That's so good. Well, shit, Cynthia.

Speaker 1 That would fix a lot of problems. No one knows why we're doing anything, but we've all agreed to that.

Speaker 1 What we're going to do is we're just going to not ask because that makes everyone uncomfortable when you say, Why would we do that?

Speaker 2 It's so crazy. And when I see it happening,

Speaker 2 I'm the person that goes, I'm so sorry. Excuse me.
Sorry, excuse me. I don't understand why we're doing this.
Can someone please explain it to me?

Speaker 2 And everyone's face goes

Speaker 1 staring blankly.

Speaker 2 That's actually a really good question.

Speaker 2 It's a good question.

Speaker 2 Let's figure it out. Let's have a conversation.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's so good. It really does.
When you first,

Speaker 1 it's a slippery slope.

Speaker 1 The moment you don't understand why you're there, you must ask because it's going to keep getting worse and worse and worse.

Speaker 2 And also, people start expecting you to just say, okay

Speaker 2 yes but the second the second you go

Speaker 2 i don't know about that i'm not sure about that can you please explain it to me you will be the person that she's going to ask and you might occasionally get the uh

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 and you just put up with the and for me i'm like you can roll your eyes if you want to but you're going to thank me later when you understand why you're doing this and you're going to thank me when you don't have an answer and and i've taken that off your schedule and you don't have to do that anymore that's right exactly cynthia Cynthia, is this part of the too muchness?

Speaker 1 I just want to know,

Speaker 1 because it's such a sweet

Speaker 1 offering. And by the way, I didn't expect the book to be as vulnerable as it is.
I think it's a very, you could have been much less generous with your personal stories, with your vulnerability.

Speaker 1 I really appreciated that. Thank you.
Is the asking the whys, is that part of this too muchness that you are now embracing? And what does it mean to you to be too much?

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 that is that. It's asking and finding out and getting all the information you possibly can get in order to make the decisions you want to make for your life.

Speaker 2 And I think that a lot of us sort of abandon that.

Speaker 2 We abandon the pursuit of knowledge and knowing, not just scholastically, not just because, not just our books, but our lives, like we knowing the information that that tells us what to do next or how to move next.

Speaker 2 I think the too much is too muchness is that. I think the too muchness is how I show up in my body, the way I dress, the way I do my nails, all of those things.

Speaker 2 Someone once said to me that my nails, I have it in there, someone said, once said to me that someone was having a full-on discussion about whether my nails were a way to push people away. And I said,

Speaker 2 How can that be when I spend three to four hours with someone literally this close

Speaker 2 to do them.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I spend three to four hours with a person that close. And then when they're done, many people go, oh, Nick, can I see your nails?

Speaker 1 Yes, that was so beautiful.

Speaker 2 Can I see your nails? Now I'm connected, physically connected with a person I don't know. And now we're having a conversation about nails.
This doesn't push anyone away.

Speaker 2 It actually goes, oh, my goodness, I want to,

Speaker 2 it starts conversations consistently.

Speaker 2 For me, this is just another extension of creativity. It is an these are the canvas that another person uses that I get to use in my life.

Speaker 2 I get to tell stories with these or no stories with these. It shows a feeling, it shows a vibe.
And it's the same with what I put on. I dress for me.
I don't know what going out clothes are.

Speaker 2 I have none. I have very many clothes that I love.
There are no clothes that I save for going out. There are no clothes that I save for being in the house.

Speaker 1 It's all lovely.

Speaker 2 I wear it all whenever I feel like wearing it.

Speaker 1 That's it.

Speaker 2 There are no special bags, no special shoes, no special clothes. They're all special.
I wear them all the time. There's nothing I put aside for anything.

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Speaker 1 You are one of the most beloved actors of our time who refuses to act. You are like

Speaker 1 never acting.

Speaker 1 How is this possible?

Speaker 2 Because I believe that to act is actually to tell the truth. Yes.

Speaker 2 That's what I think it is. And you're here.
People have many different ways about it. Some method actors are method actors.
I don't believe in method acting because I think it's dangerous.

Speaker 2 And I actually think that really only men can do it.

Speaker 1 Say more, please.

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 2 the situations that

Speaker 2 are told for women and the situations that are told for men usually

Speaker 2 are very, very different.

Speaker 2 I can play Lincoln. Like, if someone is playing Lincoln, play Lincoln.
And you're a president and you don't speak to everybody. everybody, and that's fine.

Speaker 2 If I'm playing Tessa, who I'm playing right now, Prima Fasci, who is sexually abused,

Speaker 2 how can I method act that?

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 How can I method that?

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 You know, and if we, let's make it like...

Speaker 2 Let's say Alphabet. How do I method act being ostracized by everybody

Speaker 2 who was around me? I'll drive myself insane.

Speaker 2 I don't want to be in a place where every, well, no one talks to me.

Speaker 2 I don't actually want to be in that place because I've also experienced what it's like when you feel like you don't belong at all. I've actually experienced when no one is talking to you.

Speaker 2 It doesn't feel good. I don't need to put myself through it to know what it feels like.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 2 I am mining the things that I already understand, the things that I already know, and funneling them through my body into whoever I'm playing.

Speaker 1 So is the method acting for the men a simpler, more enjoyable, more familiar experience because they are playing roles that have power?

Speaker 2 Correct.

Speaker 1 And the women are always, whether art reflects life or life reflects art, playing people who have been

Speaker 1 right subservient roles. And so why?

Speaker 2 So we have been hurt, have been been abused, all of it. That

Speaker 2 now

Speaker 2 we get to shift that more often now. And we have there are roles that are far more powerful for women, which is amazing.

Speaker 2 But I don't, of my friends, of the people that I know who are spectacular, I don't, they are not method actors,

Speaker 1 but they're brilliant.

Speaker 1 Cynthia, talk to us about playing Jesus. Yeah, this was if you aren't

Speaker 1 lives in Ella.

Speaker 1 Scary.

Speaker 1 Scary.

Speaker 2 When I, so I

Speaker 1 would have method acted that shit.

Speaker 2 I so I have this. I

Speaker 2 my um barometer for whether I should play a role is how it makes me feel when someone says it out loud. So I get the message from my agent and she says, so okay,

Speaker 2 they're doing a version of Jesus Christ Superstar and they would like you to play Jesus.

Speaker 1 I said, I beg pardon.

Speaker 2 What did you say?

Speaker 2 They think it might be a really good idea for you to play Jesus. I said.

Speaker 2 And because my manager knows me very well, she said, I told them that's an amazing idea.

Speaker 1 I said,

Speaker 2 come again.

Speaker 1 Why?

Speaker 2 They just want to change something. They want to try something different.
And I was terrified, immediately terrified. I know what I look like.
I know what I am.

Speaker 2 I know what's going to happen the second this is announced. I knew it

Speaker 2 immediately.

Speaker 2 And that is the reason I said, okay.

Speaker 2 Fine.

Speaker 2 Fine, let's do it. So I knew I would have to learn something about myself.
I knew I would have to connect with my faith. I knew I would have to connect with

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 2 balance between masculinity and femininity and what that looks like and what that is and is it.

Speaker 2 And I knew I would have to

Speaker 2 find a way

Speaker 2 through it all to tell

Speaker 2 the story my way.

Speaker 2 I didn't want to mimic playing a man,

Speaker 2 but I also didn't want to

Speaker 2 make it as feminine as possible. I was just like, what does that, what is that in-between space where it's just

Speaker 2 a person with energy that brings people in?

Speaker 2 What does that look like for someone

Speaker 2 who is connected to a spirit, a holy spirit, a

Speaker 2 God?

Speaker 2 What does that look like?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I know that for those who read the Bible, it was really interesting because when it was, there was so much, there was both excitement and anger, nothing in between, both the extremes.

Speaker 2 And for those who were really angry,

Speaker 2 I knew that they hadn't really understood

Speaker 2 what this faith is based on, which actually is love.

Speaker 2 To love one another as you would be loved, to do unto one another as you would have done unto you.

Speaker 2 And we are all made in the likeness of God. All

Speaker 2 made in the likeness. I know that implicitly.

Speaker 2 And so I was like, but that's the through line. That's the truth.
So if I know that's the truth, there's no reason I should be terrified of playing this role

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 it's already a part of me. So I can actually, I can just funnel that and tell that.

Speaker 2 You can tell the story of a person who's in pain. You can tell the story of a person who's afraid.

Speaker 2 You can tell the story of a person who has a big journey ahead of them and they're just afraid to do it. You can tell the person who

Speaker 2 is betrayed by a friend. You can tell the story who loves and is loved.
You can tell the story who is of a person who is lifted and pulled down. You can tell that.

Speaker 2 All those are actually really human things.

Speaker 2 And I can tell that in my body.

Speaker 2 I can do that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you did.

Speaker 1 You did. All of LA was like in shock by the power and beauty of it for a good reason.

Speaker 2 I have to tell you, I didn't. I was really overwhelmed by what happened after.
I really didn't expect that.

Speaker 2 I knew we were doing something special. And in that space, I thought, well, this is amazing.
That first night knocked me off my feet. I really didn't expect that reaction.

Speaker 2 You have to understand when that's as one person sitting in the center of the stage at the Hollywood Bowl, when there's 17,500 people

Speaker 2 screaming back at you,

Speaker 2 that's like a wave of energy and

Speaker 2 emotion that I just wasn't expecting to get. I just, I didn't,

Speaker 2 for some reason, I just didn't

Speaker 2 know that that would happen. I just had no idea that that might be a situation.
That might be the situation.

Speaker 2 So, when it happened, I really tried to just hold the moment, be the character, stay there, wait till it's time to, and I

Speaker 2 feel it. And then Synthes shows up and goes,

Speaker 2 What the fuck?

Speaker 2 And then I have to switch her off and go, Jesus. Jesus.
You see it. There's like a moment that goes, Yeah.

Speaker 1 Oh my God. Oh my God.

Speaker 2 How

Speaker 2 that's what's happening in my brain.

Speaker 1 And then I have to go, I have to, I have to continue.

Speaker 2 I have to continue.

Speaker 2 Come back.

Speaker 2 Now we move on.

Speaker 1 Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So Cynthia showed up for a minute to be

Speaker 1 there. To receive that.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's beautiful, actually. Yeah, I showed up.

Speaker 2 I was like, I didn't, and I didn't expect, because it like knocked me out of myself.

Speaker 1 Because sometimes it knocked the Jesus right out of you.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, you can, like, because you have to sort of make room for the characters sometimes. Sort of like you, you're the vessel.
So the characters come through you and you make the room for them.

Speaker 2 You sort of sit yourself to the back. It's like a theater.
You know, you move to the back of the theater while the character comes forward and they take up most of the space.

Speaker 2 And I was happily residing at the back of the theater,

Speaker 2 you know, existing and watching what's going on, sort of being the motor to which everything happens.

Speaker 2 And then it's like someone came to the back of the seat and like pushed me forward and I tripped up and

Speaker 2 was in the room.

Speaker 1 That's so beautiful. And had to go.

Speaker 2 She won't move. I think I need to go back.
I have to go back. I'm going to go back.

Speaker 2 I have to go back.

Speaker 2 We have to keep moving.

Speaker 1 Your generosity is so,

Speaker 1 it really moved me in the book when somebody wrote and said something about how women can't be Jesus, which is just what people have been saying since Jesus' time.

Speaker 1 So yeah, I mean, that's not a surprising reaction. But your response was so generous in that you thought, oh, that's so sad what she thinks of herself.
That's so sad. Yeah.
Tell us about that.

Speaker 2 I think when other women put those kinds of limitations on other women, I don't think it's really about the other woman. I really think it's about themselves.

Speaker 2 I think it's about how they've been treated their whole lives. I think it's about what they've been told about themselves.
And I think it's about what they believe about themselves.

Speaker 2 And they can't possibly believe more of any other person.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Because they are now conditioned to believe that they have so little to give.
And I felt like that was heartbreaking.

Speaker 2 I felt like in a moment where

Speaker 2 she could have seen how much more she has to give because of this character, because of this other woman who was able to do more, she only saw how little she has to offer and therefore how little she thought I had to offer.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So when she's saying, Cynthia, you can't, you're not, you can't be fully divine. You can't, she meant I can't.
I can't. I can't.
I can't do it.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because it really read like someone, it read like she was repeating what had been said to her.

Speaker 1 Yes. That's what it read like.

Speaker 2 And I was like, these aren't your words. These are someone else's words.

Speaker 1 Yes. And they are behind the curtain.

Speaker 2 Exactly. They are using you as a mouthpiece.

Speaker 1 Oh.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 And do you think that all of like this,

Speaker 1 it feels to me like the pajamas at the end of the day. Like, is this insistence of

Speaker 1 yourself? Yes. Your selfness always being forward.
Nobody else, no acting, this is me. Is that a way of drawing a boundary between your acting life and your real life? I think so.

Speaker 1 It's not getting lost.

Speaker 2 I think so. I think it's to make sure that people never forget that

Speaker 2 beneath all of it, that with all of it is the human being.

Speaker 2 That it isn't a switch that that comes on and off that in order to make all of this happen the human being has to take care and be taken care of themselves

Speaker 1 okay well we have to let you go because you have seven million things to do but i need to leave you with this

Speaker 1 i know is that crazy i haven't it feels like it's been 30 seconds do we have to go

Speaker 1 well um you should know that real quick i have like really interesting social anxiety and so i had to go to this party a while back and i decided i was gonna going to go because I cared about the person.

Speaker 1 It was right after we had seen Wicked. I started describing my gender as I am Glinda presenting with an Alphaba soul.
I was obsessed with Alphaba constantly. Okay.

Speaker 1 My children, to help me get ready for this party,

Speaker 1 helped me dress up. Yeah.
And I was dressed up as Alphaba. Okay.
I'm going to get, this was not a costume party. Yeah, it was not a costume part.
It was not a costume party.

Speaker 1 I had on my full black dress, my collar, my boots, my rings, my nails. I had on everything.
And this was the way I was going to go and be brave for this party. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Cynthia, I walk into the party and Abby and I are walking down this small hallway. And the first person who we see walking towards us is you.

Speaker 1 And I dive behind Abby like I've never, I was a friend's birthday party. A friend's birthday party.
Sarah Paulson's birthday party. Oh my God.

Speaker 1 And I hid from you because I was like, I am dressed as Alphaba and Alphaba is walking in the room.

Speaker 2 Oh my God. but the thing is, I had my Alphaba coat on.
You didn't see that leather jacket that I wore?

Speaker 1 You didn't see that long leather coat that I wore? Yeah, it was gorgeous. Well, Cynthia, you're allowed to dress as Alpha because you are her.
I am not.

Speaker 1 Oh my God, I wish.

Speaker 2 I wish you didn't die. I wish I would have given you the biggest hug in the world.

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 We were actually headed out, and so we just passed each other in the hallway, and I

Speaker 1 she looks at me and she goes, I'm wearing this dress.

Speaker 1 I'm wearing this. And I'm like, we're just going to keep walking.
It's a whole family story now, Cynthia. You're a legend, not only in the world, but in our home.

Speaker 1 This hour has been more than I could have ever dreamed. I am so grateful that you are who you are in the world.
Think you just makes all of us better.

Speaker 2 Thank you very much. This has been really wonderful and like really like super, super affirming.
You can't imagine.

Speaker 2 This book means so much to me. I'm, I was really,

Speaker 2 my book agent was badgering me forever and ever and ever. He was like, You have to write something, you have to write something.
And I'd be like, I don't not know.

Speaker 2 It's, I don't think I have that much to say. He was like, You have a lot to say.
I've been listening to you and your podcasts. I was like, I know, but those are just things that come out of me.

Speaker 2 Those are what, just stories that I, and he said, Well, you should write them down. And I was like, I just, I don't know.
And then when we finally sort of did it, I

Speaker 2 don't know.

Speaker 2 I just knew it was special to me.

Speaker 2 And so I'm really glad that you like it, that it has been helpful and that you've enjoyed some of these stories and they've been meaningful because it really has meant a lot to me to be on this journey of writing this and telling people what some of this journey looks like, that it all hasn't been like bright and flowery, that actually some of the learning has come from the more, the sort of darker parts of who I am and the things that I have experienced.

Speaker 2 And that actually

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 and forgive me if this sounds cliche, that from the darker parts there is always going to be light, that you can always find brightness and light and

Speaker 2 joy from the things that have hurt, that have pulled you into a dark space and that have taken from you, that

Speaker 2 you can always change that and that can always get you another place in your life. It's just, I'm really, I'm glad to be doing this with you.

Speaker 2 I'm really glad to be speaking to both of you because if anyone knows, you do. So thank you.

Speaker 1 Cynthia, you're a dream. Everybody go pick up the book and give it to your friends and give it to your family.
It's what we need right now. We need to not be shrinking.

Speaker 1 And I won't even tell everybody to go see Wicked because they're already there. So we'll talk about it next week.
While you're waiting in line for your wicked tickets, you can bring your book.

Speaker 1 Right, that's right.

Speaker 2 And I will say that this, I wrote this like as a gift. I kept saying, I really want this to be a gift for people.

Speaker 2 I really want to feel like a gift for me to everyone who gets it, that I want people to buy it for each other and give it as a peace offering.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I feel like that's mostly what a lot of my work is: that it wants to be an offering for people. So this is one of those offerings.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It sure is an offering. Thank you, Cynthia.
Thank you so much to Gain for sponsoring this episode. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media.

Speaker 1 Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard Things Show on TikTok.