Domestic Disturbance — Libby Caswell E3

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this story can be hard to hear there's detailed talk of suicide and violence But we think it's important not to gloss over the reality of what happened to Libby Caswell.

Please take care while listening.

So what age was Libby when you moved into this house?

She was in fourth grade and her and Natalie just had chickenpox together when we moved here.

Libby had it worse than Natalie.

It was in her ears and in her mouth and on her eyelids.

I mean, it was everywhere.

Summer has been so softer and I mean just

very basically matter.

I'm here in Independence, Missouri, standing in the living room of the small tidy house that Libby grew up in.

I came here to immerse myself in Libby's physical world, to meet the people who loved her and to see for myself the places she lived.

Because often, those physical spaces tell stories that people can't or won't.

Libby's mom Cindy and sister Natalie are showing me around and sharing stories about the family through the years.

There are photos of Libby everywhere, faded childhood prints, pictures of her and her son, and blown-up portraits from a modeling shoot she did in her teens.

Her family told me Libby loved the camera.

She just posed and wanted to be in pictures all her life and I'm so violent.

They take me into the kitchen where the family would often spend time together.

She was a pretty good cook.

She really taught me on fried chicken.

She could really cook some fried chicken.

I was like, wow, you've outdone mom.

But mostly, we stand outside Libby's old bedroom and talk.

She always painted it some really weird colors.

When we first moved in, I painted my room pink and she painted hers like really bright lime green with a really dark green trim and it was horrible.

And then she had these big like flower stamps all over it and then she'd change into, like, red and then to gold.

And it was, like, her little space.

And she wouldn't let me in most of the time.

I'd have, she'd make me knock.

And then even then, a lot of times, she told me to go away.

Sometimes, though, Libby relented and let Natalie in.

The sisters would watch scary movies in bed, dance around to music.

She would sit in front of her mirror and watch herself sing.

And I always would tease her and stuff for being out of tune or whatever.

and she didn't care.

She would just stare at herself in the mirror and have like a big brush in her hand or something pretending to sing really loud.

She was so funny.

As a child, Libby's room was her own private sanctuary.

But as a teenager, it became a place where she and her boyfriend Devin retreated to together.

I never really knew what was going on because they just kind of locked themselves in there.

Whether they were sequestered in her bedroom or just home alone, no one saw what Libby and Devon were up to.

But her family did start to notice that little things were different around the house and not in a good way.

We'd come home sometimes when they were both here and things would be broken.

One time we came home and we had the picture of Jesus hanging on the wall and it was completely shattered.

There was damage that often went unexplained, like a dent in Libby's Libby's bedroom wall.

We were like, who put this hole here?

Who did this?

And everyone was like, we don't know.

I should be clear about my reporting history here.

I'm a journalist who covers violence against women, and I tend to focus on a specific kind of violence, domestic violence, which occurs between people in intimate relationships.

Through my decade of reporting, I've developed a keen eye and ear for picking it up.

But I can tell you that domestic violence is, by design, difficult to see from the outside.

Both the abuser and the person being abused have compelling reasons to hide what's going on.

But hiding a secret of this magnitude?

It's a lot of work.

And as is often the case with secrets, it tends to find a way of making itself known.

In a bruise peeking out from a sleeve, A whispered admission to a friend, an argument behind not-so-closed doors.

Take that hole that Cindy mentioned earlier.

One day she comes home from work and finds a hole in the wall of Libby's bedroom.

Whatever hit it dented the drywall and splintered the paint around it.

I can tell you from my experience, in some homes, holes and walls are not innocent.

They're not mistakes or accidents.

But Libby wouldn't tell her family what had happened, and no one else had been in the room.

And so for a while, that's where Cindy's story of the hole ended.

Until I started interviewing Libby's friends and the full picture began to emerge.

I remember it like it was yesterday.

Her first Mother's Day.

She called me.

I ended up showing up over at her house and she was just in tears.

This is Holly, one of Libby's best friends.

Libby may not have confided in her mom or her sister about what happened that day, but she did tell Holly.

She said that Devin had slammed her head up against the wall and knocked her out and just left her there unconscious.

She didn't ever tell me the extent of all the things that happened.

You know, I had to find out after her death.

From iHeart Podcasts, I'm Melissa Jeltson, and this is what happened to Libby Caswell.

So why do she mind?

I take pride in the fact that I've never put my hands upon a woman unless it's to stop her from hurting me.

She just wasn't happy with her life anymore.

The medical examiner ruled Libby's death undetermined.

I go, what do you mean they ruled it undetermined?

It was just like he destroyed that safe space for her in her room.

He rammed her head into the walls hard enough to put a dent in the wall, the size of a bowling ball, you know, and we never knew the explanation because no one was home and no one knew.

Watching the water.

Chapter 3.

Domestic Disturbance

Abusive relationships don't start with a head slammed into a wall.

They start like most relationships do, with flirtation and connection and excitement about what's to come.

Which is why I'm going to rewind six years before Libby's body was found in a motel bathroom, six years before her boyfriend became a suspect in her death.

Because to get the full picture of Libby and Devin's relationship, we have to start at the beginning.

And at the beginning, it was sweet.

Oh, they were in love.

They were, you know, young puppy love.

It was always, oh, babe this, babe that, making up stupid nicknames that they'd call each other.

Libby's friend Holly introduced them freshman year.

Devin was in my math class.

Libby had said that he was really cute before.

I knew that she was interested in him.

I was standing in the hallway with Libby one day and Devin walked past and I was like, oh hey Devin.

I was like, yeah, this is Libby.

And then they started dating.

I want to say maybe three weeks after that.

Libby's mom Cindy remembers meeting Devin in the beginning of their courtship.

Her first impression was that he was a charismatic kid who attracted a lot of attention from the girls.

He reminded me of Justin Bieber.

He had the long bang and he was always like, you know, tossing his head, doing his bangs.

And I thought, wow, he's really cute.

Natalie, Libby's little sister, would sometimes tag along with the couple while they hung out.

They were just kind of like the perfect high school couple, you know, the bars of the cheerleader and the football player.

And they seemed to really be into each other.

He'd come over, and he was always really respectful at first and

just seemed like he was kind of

the perfect boyfriend at the the time for her.

But when Libby became pregnant at age 16, about a year into their relationship, Natalie noticed a shift in how Devin treated her.

He would playfully do something or accidentally do something to make her really upset, and she would get upset and he would kind of just be like, why are you overreacting?

One of Natalie's most vivid memories is what she refers to as the lighter incident.

They were downstairs in the basement and he had the lighter and he was playing with the lighter and touching it to her because the end of it was hot and thought it was funny and was laughing and she kept telling him to quit and then he lit it and touched it to her leg and whatever she was wearing caught on fire.

And so she came upstairs just bawling and he was just like, I don't know why you're acting like that.

She was clearly extremely upset and he had burned her clothes on her leg and he just like

thought it was funny and was trying to just play it off like it was a joke.

From Natalie's perspective, Devin was always pushing the limits with Libby, seeing what he could get away with before she'd get angry or burst into tears.

And the limits he pushed could sometimes involve her physical body, what she would and would not tolerate.

It was just like little things like he would come into her and bump her real hard or elbow her and then she'd get upset and he'd be like, oh, I didn't mean to or

I was just messing with you kind of thing.

And

it just kind of escalated up like

he would just do things all the time like that.

Just to kid herself, Natalie wasn't sure what to make of Devin's behavior.

Maybe that's just how boys acted when they really liked you.

They were really young.

You know, I was really young too, so I was just like, eh, they'll figure it out.

She wasn't the only one who noticed how Devin started to treat Libby differently once she got pregnant.

Here's Holly again.

He just started acting real weird.

It was like, it wasn't like Libby would, like him and Libby were a couple anymore.

It was just like Libby was his.

What do you mean by that?

Like it was like an obsession kind of thing and you know he could go out and do whatever he wants but she couldn't even come over and hang out with me for you know a couple hours after she got done at school or on a weekend.

She wasn't allowed to do anything at that point.

Me and her were actually hanging out one night, and he started like sending her threatening texts and stuff.

It wasn't like outright, like, oh, hey, I'm going to beat your ass.

It was like, oh, you'll see what happens.

You'll see what happens whenever I see you again and stuff like that.

Over the course of Libby's pregnancy, the couple broke up repeatedly, but each time they got back together, together.

Natalie again.

She would leave him for a little while, but she was pregnant, so like things would come up where he'd have to come or she'd want him to come to like an appointment.

I always told her, you need to just like find someone else and move on and he can pay child support or come visit him or something, but you need to find someone else that treats you better.

But she wanted her family to be together, so she always tried really hard for that to happen.

And Devin swore he wanted that too.

I have a handwritten letter he wrote to Libby while she was pregnant.

Quote, You and this baby are the two biggest blessings I've had in my life ever.

I am more than happy.

I'm honored to be your man and father of our child.

Regardless of the hardships and challenges we've been through, it was most definitely worth it.

Things will get better even further down the road.

Remember this: you and me are in it until the end.

But after Xavier is born in the spring of 2013, things don't get better.

In fact, they get worse.

My mom and dad were at work.

I don't even know what I was doing, probably going to the kitchen.

And when I passed by the bedroom that they were in, their door was open.

I had heard them arguing, like they were kind of just like quietly talking back and forth, but you could tell it was an argument.

When I walked past, I saw him roll her to the side and just punch her really hard in the thigh.

And she cried out and started crying and was upset.

I was like, kind of like, what did, did he just hit her?

This was the first time she'd actually seen Devin punch her sister.

She couldn't believe her eyes.

Natalie felt she needed to tell her mom right away.

And so when she got home and kind of like confronted them about it, Libby was just like, no, you took it wrong.

You didn't see that.

Kind of like she was defending him.

And I was like, well, I know what I saw.

And I heard it.

Like I could hear it.

He hit you really hard.

And she's kind of just like, no,

he was just playing and she just defended him.

And I don't know why.

Libby adamantly denied that Devin hit her.

Not that time.

Not ever.

Whatever Natalie had seen had been misinterpreted.

Cindy, for her part, wasn't sure what was true, but she wanted to believe Libby.

I I kind of felt something, like I would feel something wasn't right, or Natalie would say, Mom, they were in the bedroom and we heard this loud slap, and she cried.

And I would say, Libby, did he hit you today?

No, who told you that?

We were just playing around, or, you know, something like that, but then we've seen the bruise on your leg.

Why would Libby try to hide the abuse from her family?

There's no way for me to truly know, but I do have some ideas based on what I've I've learned from talking to other women in similar situations.

Maybe Libby felt ashamed that her boyfriend would treat her so roughly and ashamed that she tolerated his behavior.

Maybe she didn't want to give her mom another reason not to like Devin, still holding out hope they could become a happy young family.

Or maybe she truly believed that each time was an accident, each time an anomaly, each time was the last.

From Cindy's recollection, this time period, the first few months after Xavier is born, is incredibly chaotic and tense.

Libby, at 17, is trying to learn how to care for her newborn.

Libby and Devin are fighting constantly and they break up once again.

This time, Cindy bans Devin from the house.

But Devin doesn't listen.

Instead, he shows the Caswell family just how much of a problem he could be.

He would either throw eggs at the house late at night, speed up and down the street, he would come and stand in the street and yell,

he'd say, you better let me see my son.

Cindy felt the threats were escalating.

And so finally, she decides to take action.

She does something that would strain her relationship with her daughter and change the trajectory of Lippy's story.

Something a lot of people do when faced with a potentially dangerous situation they can't handle alone.

She calls the police.

I was hoping that the police would come immediately and catch him here.

I was pretty naive.

I couldn't even believe it was real.

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Sometimes the truth is just a matter of perspective.

Everything falls apart in the summer of 2013, a few months after Xavier's birth.

The very first time Cindy calls the police to report Devin, it's August 2nd, around 8 at night.

The police notes are simple.

White female and white male arguing in street.

Caller is mother of female.

And that's basically it.

The call is flagged as a domestic disturbance.

I can't tell from the police report if anyone talked to Libby or Devin about what was going on.

But the visit doesn't seem to do much to abate the problem because seven hours later, Cindy calls again at 3 a.m.

to report that someone, Devin, she suspected, was driving up and down her sleepy street, blasting loud music to harass them.

Again, the police come, but there's nothing to see.

The car is long gone.

Over the next week, Every time Devin shows up at the house, Cindy calls.

It would take him an hour, hour and a half sometimes after a while to come, and he would be long gone.

He would laugh and say, they ain't never going to catch me.

I'm too smart for them.

And yeah,

he'd just run off.

And then there's the day that Devin stands across the street from her house, shirtless, swinging a hammer.

It's a blazingly hot Monday in August and Cindy has the day off of work.

She and Libby are inside the house trying to keep the baby cool cool and Devin's standing outside with the hammer yelling, you better let me see my son.

Cindy calls IPD again.

Once more, by the time they arrive, Devin's gone.

But the police are not particularly concerned by whatever happened with the hammer.

Instead, they're annoyed by the frequency with which Cindy is calling 911 and frustrated by their encounters with Libby.

The officers write in their report, quote, IPD had responded to the address five times in August 2013 for disturbances and building checks all pertaining to Devon.

Each time IPD has responded, Elizabeth has been very uncooperative.

I've seen this word uncooperative a lot in my career, especially used to describe victims of domestic violence.

We have very strong stereotypes about the ways that victims of domestic violence are supposed to act.

Lee Goodmark is the director of the Gender Violence Clinic at the University of Maryland's Kerry School of Law.

So a victim of domestic violence is supposed to be meek and weak and passive and grateful for the intervention of police.

When people don't act in conformity with this stereotype that says a victim will do anything that they can do to help with prosecution, then they are labeled uncooperative.

There are many reasons why Libby might not have wanted to, quote, quote, cooperate with the police.

To start, it was her mom calling the authorities, not her.

She may have been afraid of how Devin would react, or maybe she didn't want to see the father of her son in jail.

And as far as Cindy recalls, IPD never spoke with Libby privately to gain more insight into her behavior and never asked questions about her safety.

Even though police have been trained for the last 40 years around these issues, around these ideas about why people might not want to go forward with cases, why they might be afraid to talk to police.

You still see police labeling victims uncooperative.

And once a victim has that label, they are deemed less credible.

Which is exactly what happened in this case.

Because instead of offering Libby and Cindy support, IPD tells them to stop calling altogether.

They were like, you can't just keep calling 911.

You're going to have to kick out your daughter and rectify this situation.

You can't just keep calling 911.

And we were like,

she has a new baby.

We're not going to throw her out in the street.

She doesn't want him here.

IPD decides to use the law against them, invoking a little-known city ordinance that prohibits maintaining a nuisance property.

A property might be considered a nuisance if the residents are selling drugs out of it or accumulating dangerous junk in the yard.

or really doing anything that their neighbors don't like.

Ordinances like these are fairly common across the U.S.

and often pretty vague.

Much is left to the discretion of the officers.

And in some cases, a person might be cited not for being a nuisance to their neighbors, but to the police for calling too many times, even if they're calling to report a crime that is being committed against them.

Hours after the police respond to the hammer incident, they send another officer to serve Cindy and her husband Robert with papers officially designating their house a, quote, nuisance property.

They're warned not to call the police again or risk a fine.

Cindy, Robert, and Libby all sign a copy.

And so they were like, well, we have a certain number of times that you can call and then we're going to press charges on you guys.

I had never heard of that.

I had never heard of nuisance to the law in any way.

And so.

It was just, you know, ridiculous to me.

I didn't know, though.

I was naive.

I still trusted the police, even though I thought they could come a little quicker when I didn't call.

Lee Goodmark again.

The irony is that we tell people to call 911 if they're experiencing danger.

We tell people that police are the ones who are supposed to protect them.

We tell them that the criminal system is supposed to intervene in these cases.

And then, when they try to use that tool to do all of the things that they're told it's going to do, they're prosecuted.

After the Caswell's house is flagged as a nuisance, Cindy stops calling the police.

Months go by.

Some days are peaceful, others not so much.

And without the option of calling the cops, Cindy takes matters into her own hands.

One time him and his friend showed up outside and they got out of their car and was standing in my yard and taunting and saying, what are you going to do about it?

You came, you know, what are you going to do?

And I went and got Robert's samurai sword and went outside.

When Cindy told me this, I was kind of dumbstruck because I've spent a lot of time with her and I cannot imagine her wielding a weapon against anyone.

She's one of the most gentle and mild-mannered people I've ever met.

And the guy he was with yelled, dude, she has a sword.

And they jumped in the car and took off.

Then, one cold January morning, Cindy hears Devin and Libby fighting.

It scares Cindy enough that she does something she hadn't wanted to do since her house had been labeled a nuisance.

She calls 911.

When the police arrive, they handcuff Devin, but not because of his behavior towards Libby, because he had an outstanding warrant for an unpaid fine.

He's led to a patrol car, and according to the police report, Libby panics and tries to run after him.

The officer gives Libby a lecture.

He writes in his report, quote, After a stern warning and conversation, I elected not to arrest Libby Caswell.

The officer's note reminds me of what Lee Goodmark said about the stereotypes of domestic violence victims.

In this moment, Libby isn't acting meek or passive or grateful for police intervention.

She's not acting like a victim, so she's not, in my opinion, being treated like one.

A couple months go by without any more 911 calls.

But then one day, Cindy walks into the living room and sees Devin tackle Libby on the couch, smothering her with with his body.

Three guys in a suit came with some officers and they were like, here's your citation.

Now you have a court date.

She and her husband Robert appear in court, officially charged with maintaining a nuisance property they plead guilty that was humiliating you know they each have to pay a fine of 155 dollars we didn't break the law we didn't

we respected the law you know

we did everything we were supposed to we licensed our vehicles and had this amount of animals and got their raby shots and you know we like just lived life like normal people.

Cindy's experience with the police, the things they did and didn't do, it really burned her.

And despite how unfair and unjust the citation seemed, Cindy took it seriously.

She stopped calling IPD.

She had lost faith in the police ever helping them.

And so, she told me, had Libby.

It was kind of like it victimized her the way they did us

and didn't do anything to him.

After all this goes down, Libby ends up moving out of her childhood home and for the next few years hops from apartment to apartment around town.

She sometimes lives alone or with a friend, but whenever she's with Devin, there are more 911 calls, this time coming not from Cindy, but from neighbors, friends, landlords.

I have some of the reports here.

Incident Type Domestic Disturbance.

Male and female going in and out of duplex fighting.

Incident type, disturbance.

Two subjects screaming and fighting.

Heard something hit the wall.

Incident type, domestic disturbance.

Couple fighting in intersection.

Can hear screaming and slamming door.

Has been going on all day.

Incident type, domestic disturbance

landlord called to report that Devin Martin came to home destroyed property and is trying to start fight with Libby

incident type domestic disturbance since 6 a.m.

caller had received texts from Libby Caswell female in abusive relationship Her son's father has been there on and off all day.

Caller said Libby was afraid to call the police.

Despite all of Cindy's calls and the calls of neighbors and friends, Devin was never arrested or charged with domestic violence.

Would it have been different if Libby was quote, cooperative?

Or was there simply no way for the police to know what happened when the two of them were alone?

I've tried repeatedly to contact Devin and get his side of the story, but he's never responded.

Nonetheless, in the wake of Libby's death, these 911 calls, these reports of domestic disturbances spanning from 2013 to 2017, are what IPD had as context.

There was even a protective order that Cindy obtained at one point to keep Devin away from the house.

This history of alleged domestic violence, it seems highly relevant to Libby's death investigation, as by Devin's own account, she died in a room alone with him.

Which is why it's so confounding that IPD didn't ask Devin about any of this, as far as we can tell.

Their long history of domestic disputes is not noted anywhere in her death investigation.

In IPD's interview with Devin, he's not asked about any of these specific incidents.

And when he offers up the claim that he had never hurt Libby in the past, Man, I promise you I would not, I would not ever do anything to harm her physically.

IPD just moves on to another topic.

They really only push him about his possible involvement in her death once.

And honestly, not very hard.

To put this to rest a little bit,

did something bad happen?

But that thing's got out of control.

No, sir.

No, sir.

Positive.

I promise you,

I'll put my hand on the Bible and I'll put it on everything I love, on my children, on my son's life.

I would not ever do nothing like that.

It's possible that IPD did review all these files and decided that they weren't relevant.

To be clear, within the neatly typed reports about the conflict between the couple, there's no mention of an explicit act of physical violence, no black eyes or broken limbs.

It's all a little murky, a little messy.

And so, if that was the extent of information IPD had, maybe it would be understandable why they didn't dig into the possibility of Devin's involvement in Libby's death any deeper, just accepted his version of events.

But this was not all they had.

The very next day after Devin tells police that he'd never laid a hand on Libby, someone comes down to the police station to report something they'd witnessed exactly one week earlier.

Something they thought might be connected to Libby's death.

Something that, if true, would mean Devin lied to police.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't honestly know what happened, but if there was something that was wrong, then it needs to be, you know, brought out.

I couldn't even believe it was real.

Join me, Tatiana Siegel, executive editor of film and media at Variety, for a four-part tale of youthful ambition, artistic integrity, and the dark side of fame.

Just like my parents talk about they knew where they were when John F.

Kennedy was killed, pretty much everyone I know knows exactly where they were when River died.

Featuring new interviews with Samantha Mathis, Dr.

Drew Pinski, Corey Feldman, and more.

Listen to Variety Confidential on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Are there two sides to every story?

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Sometimes the truth is just a matter of perspective.

Hello?

Hello.

Hey, is that Gary?

Yes, it is.

This is Gary Stevens.

He used to live with Devin's mother, Mindy, and they have a child together, Devin's half-brother.

Devin kind of looked up to me as a father figure, kind of.

Him and his father didn't get along very well, and

he kind of looked up to me.

So,

I mean, that's what makes this so hard.

In the fall of 2017, Devin asked Gary if he and Libby could live at Gary's house for a bit while they saved money for a new apartment.

He was working at Sonic, and I said, yeah, come on, you know, it's fine.

A month passed with no problems.

Libby and Devin went to work.

Gary saw them in passing.

But then one day, while Gary was at home, he heard sounds like they were fighting.

And these sounds were disturbing enough that he decided he had to intervene.

I heard things being knocked off of the, you know, on the floor.

Normally I wouldn't open up the door, I'd knock, say, hey, you know, but I felt something wasn't right.

So when I opened up the door, I seemed Devin was on top of Lippy and he was choking her.

She was angled catty corner on the bed and he was sitting on top of her.

And I mean, it surprised them when I opened up the door.

You know, he kind of left her, turned around, she raised up.

And then I kind of lost it.

I said, look, you guys ain't going to disrespect me or my house.

You're not going to do this here.

You're not going to tear up my house.

You got to go.

And I feel bad because maybe I shouldn't shouldn't have, maybe, maybe I shouldn't have made him leave.

I don't, you know, I could be, there could be a thousand, maybe I shouldn't, but that didn't what happened.

This might seem like another in the long list of troubling allegations against Devin, but strangling or choking, as Gary called it, is a very bad sign in the history of an abusive relationship.

For context, it's estimated that each year, U.S.

women suffer at least 5 million acts of domestic violence.

That's almost 14,000 every single day.

The vast majority of these incidents are not lethal, but each day, around three of these women will die at the hands of their partners.

So figuring out which victims are at the highest risk of homicide is a priority for anyone trying to stop this from happening.

Because if you can predict which women are most likely to be killed by their partners, you can intervene before it's too late.

Or that's the hope.

And what researchers have found is that strangulation is a powerful predictor for future deadly violence.

Women who are strangled by their partners are over seven times more likely to later be killed by them.

It's such an important red flag in domestic violence cases that in hundreds of jurisdictions across the U.S., Police are trained to ask domestic violence victims if they have ever been strangled so that they can identify those who are at the most risk

so was she on her back and he was like straddling her yes

okay and he had his hands around her throat yes

okay was she making any noise like was he cutting off the circle like the air to her

you know i didn't hear any noises but i'm sure that you know i'm sure that's what was happening

only a week later gary heard the news that libby died with a belt around her neck.

I

seen on Facebook Libby had died.

What was your initial reaction?

I was shocked.

I was very shocked.

And then my first thought was, wow, you know, what I just witnessed.

Gary drove down to the station and asked to speak to someone about Libby's case.

When I went in,

there was a lady, you know, you talked through the glass with a speaker.

And she said, just a moment.

And she told them that they had someone with maybe information about what had happened.

Instead of bringing him into an interview room where statements can be recorded, an officer took a statement in the lobby.

So we don't have an audio recording of it, just notes from IPD and Gary's recollection.

And when a detective come out and talk to me, I just told him exactly, you know, like I explained to you,

what I witnessed.

Did they seem interested in the information?

Like, how did they react?

Not really.

They didn't really seem to have too much enthusiasm about it.

They didn't say a lot.

I think maybe it was still under investigation at that time.

So I don't know what they would have said.

Did you ever hear from them again?

No, I didn't.

No follow-up, no nothing.

No.

To this day, Gary is conflicted and confused about the meaning of what he saw.

I honestly,

I would have a hard time believing that he would do this.

Although,

what I witnessed was, you know, that's what, when I think to myself, and I've thought this over a thousand times,

do I think Devin did it?

In my heart and in my mind, I want to say no,

but it goes right back to what I seen.

So

I don't know.

I honestly do not know.

Everyone deserves to know the truth.

And if there was something that was not right, then someone should be held accountable.

I mean, I like Devin.

I love him as far as a person.

I don't want to see any harm to him.

But if he was capable of doing this, he needs to be held responsible.

On the next episode of What Happened to Libby Caswell, we learn about another secret Libby was keeping.

I mean, I knew she was doing something, but she just wouldn't admit it to me at first.

A secret that intensified an already volatile relationship.

He was doing drugs, and he was one of those people that would stay up for like a week.

And when you do that, you get crazy, you know.

Trump through me,

I think I

What Happened to Libby Caswell is written, reported, and hosted by me, Melissa Jeltson, with writing and story editing by Marissa Brown and Lauren Hansen.

Episodes are edited by Jeremy Thal and Carl Cadel.

Our executive producer is Ryan Murdoch.

For iHeart podcasts, executive producers are Jason English and Katrina Norvell with our supervising producer Carl Cadel.

Fact-checking by Maya Shukri.

Our theme song is written by Erin Kaufman and performed by Aaron Kaufman and Elizabeth Wolfe.

Original music by Aaron Kaufman with additional music by Jeremy Thal.

Our episodes are mixed and mastered by Carl Cadel.

To find out more about my

or to send a tip, please email me at what happened to Libby at gmail.com.

Thanks so much for listening.

Don't you know I follow you

until I,

until I fell apart.

What a way to find myself

in pieces,

in pieces in the dark.

Don't you know I follow you

until I,

until I fell apart?

What a way to find myself

in pieces,

in pieces

in the dark.

I couldn't even believe it was real.

Join me, Tatiana Siegel, executive editor of film and media at Variety, for a four-part tale of youthful ambition, artistic integrity, and the dark side of fame.

Just like my parents talk about they knew where they were when John F.

Kennedy was killed.

Pretty much everyone I know knows exactly where they were when River died.

Featuring new interviews with Samantha Mathis, Dr.

Drew Pinski, Corey Feldman, and more.

Listen to Variety Confidential on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Life's messy.

We're talking spills, stains, pets, and kids.

But with Anibay, you never have to stress about messes again.

At washable sofas.com, discover Anibay Sofas, the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out, starting at just $699.

Made with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics.

That means fewer stains and more peace of mind.

Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers, allowing you to refresh your style anytime.

Need flexibility?

Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly.

Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes.

Plus, they're earth-friendly and built to last.

That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch.

Upgrade your space today.

Visit washable sofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life.

That's washable sofas.com.

Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

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Drew and Sue and Eminem's Minis.

And baking the surprise birthday cake for Lou.

And Sue forgetting that her oven doesn't really work.

And Drew remembering that they don't have flour.

And Lou getting home early from work, which he never does.

And Drew and Sue using the rest of the tubes of Eminem's minis as party poppers instead.

I think this is one of those moments where people say, it's the thought that counts.

M ⁇ Ms, it's more fun together.

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This is an iHeart podcast.