What’s In An Accent with Lupita Nyong’o [VIDEO]

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Speaker 1 I've got to be interested in whatever. I mean, there was a time when I was like obsessed with Lincoln Park.

Speaker 2 Wow. And nobody that is freedom.

Speaker 1 And you know, yes.

Speaker 3 That's the devil's music where I'm from.

Speaker 3 Anything that involved an electric guitar in my mother's house was the devil.

Speaker 3 I remember in church, you know, we'd go to Sunday school. Yeah.
And then, like, so I'll go to different churches. So it's like, you know, the African church was just very simple.

Speaker 3 You, it's church and hymns and choirs and everything. And then we would go to like, you know, the white part of it, like that, that was the church and was more like organized.

Speaker 3 And even when they would tell stories about like the devil, like remember the story when Jesus is fasting, he's just like sitting

Speaker 3 and then he gets tempted, and then they'd be like, and then Satan appeared.

Speaker 3 And like, literally, like, when you say Lincoln Park, I'm like, wow, you really did have a free life.

Speaker 2 You really were free.

Speaker 2 Lincoln Park. I was free.
Wow.

Speaker 3 This is What Now

Speaker 3 with Trevor Noah.

Speaker 1 Good Peter. Nice to meet you.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 3 Lou Peter, of all the reasons I thought I'd be chatting to you on the podcast,

Speaker 3 an African podcast is the last thing I would have thought of and it's honestly my favorite conversation to have oh wonderful no really I was just like I was like oh Lupita's coming on I mean obviously you're always making movies you're always doing things you always and then I was like an African podcast

Speaker 3 I was in on so many different levels this is exciting because here we are three Africans actually let's settle the debate before we get into this conversation okay who are the best Africans?

Speaker 3 South Africans, Nigerians, or Kenyans?

Speaker 1 I mean, what kind of question is that? We're all subjective.

Speaker 2 We're all going to be,

Speaker 2 you know, root for our own country. Somebody has to win.

Speaker 3 No, but what did I tell you? Kenyans or newer people?

Speaker 2 I know, I know.

Speaker 3 Like, already you're like this. We're subjective.
And then if you ask the Nigerian, that's...

Speaker 2 Nigerian.

Speaker 2 The best and worst Africans. It means anything.
The hubris of it all.

Speaker 3 Yeah, Kenyans are always like, always... What do you think it is? Because I find like South Africans, and like we know, South Africans have always, we're almost like the Americans of Africa.

Speaker 3 Like South Africans have always been like, we're the best, we got everything first, and we're, and then also, we are in like, we just ignore everything happening to our country, right?

Speaker 3 So even when Kenya gets like advancements, or even when Nigeria, like when Rwanda started having dope internet, and South Africans are like, yeah, but it's still Rwanda.

Speaker 3 See what I mean? Yeah. But I feel like Kenyans are like quietly, like the cities develop and things grow.
But I've never heard a Kenyan being like, yeah, you have to come to Kenya. Never.

Speaker 3 Like, what do you think that is?

Speaker 1 Okay, I don't understand that.

Speaker 1 No, but I mean in like a braggy way oh yeah we're not very we don't have a lot of braggadocio it's not in our culture perhaps nigerians opposites no the opposite i i love us

Speaker 2 i just why would what's there not to love apart from like the corruption and bribery and all you know that kind of arrogance yeah but if i go somewhere and there's no nigerians i'm like i have to go there's no money to be made

Speaker 2 like it's always i'm like i visit schools i'm like do you guys have any nigerian kids no nigerian kids no this place is wow like but that is just so baked into me.

Speaker 2 But I'm like a Nigerian from the diaspora.

Speaker 2 So maybe I'm kind of overcompensating.

Speaker 2 The thing, one of the episodes of your podcast, you actually have a mother who makes a Nigerian soup that she, I don't want to spoil it, but she takes it to New York from London,

Speaker 2 which you probably shouldn't do, given the ingredients in her

Speaker 2 typical Nigerian soup. But it's just like.
it's it has that level of specific specificity about like the soup people eat the stories we tell each other Like, how did you find these people?

Speaker 1 Well, I've always loved storytelling and just cinema through the ears has always been a thing for me. And growing up, radio was a big thing.

Speaker 1 And so, coming here and learning of shows like This American Life made a big impact on me and my understanding of America from that more nuanced place. And so, I wanted to make a show like that.

Speaker 1 And so, I teamed up with a production, a podcasting production studio.

Speaker 1 They went out, hired Story Scouts around the world who then would come just really emailing people, just, you know, going through their own memory, Rolodex, you know, like that story was actually the mother of a Story Scout.

Speaker 1 Oh, wow. And that's how the stories got to me.
They would then, you know, send me like blurbs of all the stories that they had whittled down to.

Speaker 1 And then I would pick the ones that I felt were representative of a mind-your-own story. So, yeah, that's it.

Speaker 3 I'm loving the idea of this starting off in a very formal way in a production studio somewhere in the US.

Speaker 3 And then, by the time it gets to Africa, I mean, fundamentally, what you're looking for is like gossip.

Speaker 2 That's all you're doing.

Speaker 3 No, if you think about it, honestly, all you're doing is you're just like, have you heard anything? Do you have any good stories for me? Do you know anybody who has a story?

Speaker 3 That's all you're really doing at some point. It's true.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 But what I love about the podcast is that you start with with your stories and it it like it it adds such a you know it's such a personal flavor to it it it really takes you on a journey you know i know it's the first episode but the

Speaker 3 losing your accent

Speaker 3 just the idea of you travel to another country

Speaker 3 and then on the one hand you have the balance of you want to make yourself you know something in this country and you you want the country to you know identify with you you want to be embraced yeah but then on the other hand you don't want to lose your people, your culture, your vibe, your language.

Speaker 3 Like, why was it important for you to make that the first episode specifically?

Speaker 1 Well, I think because it is the way in which I started my career, and it felt like a natural, organic jumping-off point to talk about identity and the crises of it when you are a transient person.

Speaker 1 And this podcast is about, for me, it's about expanding our understanding of what it means to be African today and making that experience feel global because it is africans are everywhere yeah right and so the way people know me uh obviously is a lot through my my voice and here i am starting a podcast uh it felt just natural to talk about that dilemma that i went through about how to sound on a global stage

Speaker 2 And do you feel that's something you're still grappling with?

Speaker 1 No, I am not grappling it with it it in the same way. I've kind of, I've accepted that I sound,

Speaker 1 I sound mixed up and confused what I do. Like, you know, and sometimes, okay, it's sometimes it frustrates me because I want, there's moments when I want to sound more Kenyan than I can.

Speaker 1 And then mainly that's the betrayal when like I'm back home and I say something.

Speaker 1 I remember my niece, I went back home and I felt like when I'm back home, I code shift and I sound way more Kenyan than I do in America so I'm with my cousins I'm feeling really chill and my cousin my little niece she was probably four at the time she goes why do you sound like that then I say like what and she goes like a white somebody wow

Speaker 1 like a white somebody

Speaker 1 and I was just so heartbroken because here I was thinking ah I'm sounding like everybody

Speaker 1 I'm back and she called me out so you know there's those moments where I'm like oh my god I can't run away from my American experience but for the most part I'm fine with it so

Speaker 1 at this point I feel like my

Speaker 1 vocal expression is malleable

Speaker 2 and that's okay Reflects your experience. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 And I want it to be malleable because when I'm playing a role, I want to be able to lose myself in that accent, you know, and to study it.

Speaker 1 And it all starts technically, you know, for me, I can't do accents like you. You're a mimic and you're a very good mimic.

Speaker 2 Oh, thank you very much.

Speaker 1 I have to study the IPA of the accent, you know.

Speaker 3 Oh, but that's what makes you brilliant. It's funny, you understand the difference between the two.
So for instance, I always tell people, I go, I don't do accents.

Speaker 3 I mimic people.

Speaker 1 Yeah, okay. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 So I like find a person and I'm like, I like how they speak. And that's the person who sticks in my head.
You know what I mean? So someone will be like, do a London accent.

Speaker 3 I'm like, there's not, for me, I don't think there is a London accent because when I'm in London, there are so many accents. So I just go, This is my friend in London.
This is how they speak.

Speaker 3 And that's what I do. Does that make sense? And then sometimes people will complain to me.
They'll be like, they'd be like, Trevor, I heard your Trinidadian accent, and that's not how Trinidad.

Speaker 3 I'm like, yes, I'm not doing a Trinidadian accent. No.
I'm doing my friend.

Speaker 3 This is how my friend speaks. And he's from Trinidad.
So you should go complain to him because I'm doing him.

Speaker 1 Yeah. But it's also, you're also owning your expression of that Trinidad.

Speaker 1 It's Trinidad through you.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And that's cool. And I'm envious of it.
I'm so envious.

Speaker 3 What did you, I would love to know what

Speaker 3 enabled you or what gave you the permission to not feel like you were losing something or betraying something or because everyone has that experience.

Speaker 3 I've heard countless stories of people who will say, hey, you know, we moved to this country from Mexico and I had a really thick Mexican accent and I'm ashamed that now I tried to change it to American, but then my family feels like I'm leaving them behind.

Speaker 3 Or, no, I moved here from the Middle East and I'm trying to get rid of the accent, but at the same time, my family says, Why are you letting go of me? Or

Speaker 3 what was it that allowed you to give yourself permission to say, yeah, you know what, my accent is going to evolve and

Speaker 3 it's just going to shift depending on where I'm staying for the most amount of time?

Speaker 3 Was there a moment or?

Speaker 1 The first permission I gave myself to

Speaker 1 change my accent or allow my accent to transform was going to drama school.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 I went to drama school because I didn't want to just be an instinctive actor.

Speaker 1 I wanted to understand my instrument. I wanted to know what I was good at, what I was not good at, and work on the things that I wasn't good at.
And one of the things I wasn't good at was accents.

Speaker 1 I didn't know how to sound any other way than myself.

Speaker 1 That was the the first permission that I gave myself. But it was full of heartbreak and grief, just grief.

Speaker 1 The process of deciding, okay, I'm going to start working on my American accent and I'm not going to allow myself to sound Kenyan so that I'm like monitoring and really trying to understand my mouth in a technical way to like make these new sounds.

Speaker 1 Making those new sounds in a context that wasn't the classroom felt like betrayal. You know, I didn't feel like myself.
And I cried many nights to sleep, many, many nights. Oh, yes, I did.

Speaker 1 It was so frustrating.

Speaker 3 Because you were living in an American accent.

Speaker 1 I was living in an American accent. And so I told my family and I would call home and I would speak in an American accent.

Speaker 2 So you were like method, basically. I was method with the accent.

Speaker 1 And there were moments where I wanted to give up, but I had this goal. I wanted to be able to succeed in an American market as an actor.

Speaker 1 Now, I did all that work just for someone to tell me, uh-uh, now go and sound like yourself.

Speaker 2 What?

Speaker 2 That was another betrayal. I was like, what do you mean?

Speaker 1 I've done all this so that I can come out here and people can be like, you don't have an accent. And then now someone is telling me, oh, actually, we need you just as you were.
My God.

Speaker 1 And so now I had to do it again. And when I tried to return to my accent, I couldn't find myself in my mouth.
I couldn't find that original part of me.

Speaker 1 And my mom actually sent me a voice note of how I, of a speech I gave before I moved to America. And it brought me to tears because I've never been able to sound like that.
And I never will.

Speaker 1 So it's, it's, and it, it wasn't a moment. It was many things.
And it's also people I love reminding me that I was enough, you know?

Speaker 1 And my mother saying to me, you're, the way you sound is a product of your life experience. And that was like, aha.
You know, I don't,

Speaker 1 the way I sound is representative of my growth. And that growth involves America, you know? It involves Mexico.
There's certain words I say, and I say them with a Mexican, with a Spanish accent.

Speaker 1 And it's just like, that's the way I say those words.

Speaker 3 You must be so thrown by that, by the way.

Speaker 3 So I remember in Black Panther when you're speaking Spanish.

Speaker 3 And I remember watching this in the cinema. And the scene isn't like, it's not like you're saying like one line.
It's not like you're like, yo entiendo, también.

Speaker 2 No, you like speak and you speak.

Speaker 3 And I will never forget this moment. We're sitting in the cinema.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I heard people gasp. And then I heard a few people like whisper like, wow,

Speaker 2 she speaks Spanish.

Speaker 3 Tell me a little bit about that part. Like for those who don't know, like.

Speaker 3 What is Lupita's connection with Mexico and with Spanish?

Speaker 1 I was born in Mexico. My father was in self-exile there for a number of years and I was born in the last year that he was there.
He was teaching political science at the university.

Speaker 1 And yeah, I was born there. And then we moved back to Kenya

Speaker 1 like shortly after I turned one. And when I was 16, my parents were like, you know what? You have a Mexican passport.
You should speak Spanish. And off you go.

Speaker 1 And they sent me to Mexico to learn Spanish. And so I spent seven months there.
And I did a very similar thing, actually. It's what actually

Speaker 1 informed my decision to speak in an American accent. When I was in Mexico, after one month of being there, I said, okay, enough with the English, no more English.
I'm only going to speak Spanish.

Speaker 1 Oh, wow. And for the rest of my time there, I spoke Spanish because I was like, I want to learn this language as fully as possible.

Speaker 1 And if I allow myself to have the crutch of speaking English to the people around me, my classmates and stuff, I'm not going to pick up this language.

Speaker 1 And so, yeah, I stopped speaking English and it made me a very quiet person because I didn't have enough Spanish to like, you know, be conversational.

Speaker 1 But what it did is it, it, my, my brain switched into survival mode. And that's the best way to learn a language because you pick things up and you hold on to them for dear life.

Speaker 2 You start crying. And that's what happened.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I would go to the market and I would learn the names of foods and like they would register.

Speaker 1 Okay. Because I need it for the next day.
And I learned Spanish pretty well as a result.

Speaker 3 There's a study that I read

Speaker 3 about

Speaker 3 languages, particularly, and it talked about how everybody who can speak multiple languages also finds that they have a different personality in every single different language that they speak.

Speaker 2 It's tiny.

Speaker 3 And so

Speaker 3 I'd love to know, like, what

Speaker 3 personality traits do you find you have in the different languages that you don't have in the others and you wish you did? Because I know, I know when I speak English, I'm one kind of Trevor.

Speaker 3 But if I speak Zulu with my friends, there's a different kind of Trevor. And then if I have like the mixed everythingness with my friends, then it's even different.
It's a more different kind of...

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 3 Like, do you, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 What are we not getting from English Lupita that is hidden in all these other Lupitas?

Speaker 2 Well, there's two English. Even that.

Speaker 2 There we go. I was like, accent Lupita.
That was a whole new one. That was a hat.
And the body language. Everything a hat.

Speaker 2 That's an African sound. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then with African sounds. Yes,

Speaker 2 that's

Speaker 2 already.

Speaker 1 Well, I have two English Lupitas, right? There's the Kenyan English Lupita, and then there's the American English Lupita.

Speaker 1 And I think with my Kenyan English Lupita,

Speaker 1 I'm a lot spicier, I think. Okay, you know, and I can, I'm provocative, you know.

Speaker 1 And this might be my family, or maybe it's a Kenyan thing the way my family compliments is to kind of abuse

Speaker 2 so they'll be like okay so you think that jacket is nice

Speaker 2 wow you know like that and that's the compliment and so I tried that in school once and like people were so offended that I was like okay this is the code

Speaker 1 switching thing you know so like that so I'm a lot spicier a lot more pokey right right right in my my the Kenyan version of me uh and I use a lot more of those sounds.

Speaker 1 I mean, you know, Africans, we use a lot of sounds to convey a lot of things.

Speaker 1 So there's a whole lot more of that.

Speaker 2 When my American, there's the uh-huh version. Yeah.
And um.

Speaker 1 And then my Mexican self, Mexicans are very polite.

Speaker 1 Right. And so I think I take on a more polite version of myself.

Speaker 1 You know, like there's even just tu and usted. Do you yeah, like the whole tu and usted thing.
And I find I'm a lot more, I'm whinier in in when I'm in my Mexican mode because Mexicans have this lilt.

Speaker 1 It's a very oyay and like silly, you know, they do.

Speaker 1 And there's like, and yeah, so I take on that personality a little more.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And then, I mean, Luo, say maybe my Luo self is very quiet.

Speaker 2 Quiet. Yeah.
You know, Lupita, what's so interesting is I feel that you've broken barriers for African actresses.

Speaker 2 So the Lupita that arrives at Yale School of Drama today may not feel the same pressure to change her accent because there's a reference for

Speaker 1 African actress.

Speaker 2 But you had to be the one to walk through that door

Speaker 2 in a way and do the thing that was hard to allow someone else coming. If an actress comes from Nigeria or they're like, oh, we know, Lupita, we know what this is.

Speaker 2 Do you know what I mean? Oh, yeah, you can pay us because we've seen it happen.

Speaker 2 So that person may be able to assume a completely different posture and just have their natural accent in a way you couldn't 15 years ago. And that didn't exist.

Speaker 1 True, but I would still encourage that person to learn other accents.

Speaker 1 Because without my training at Yale, I wouldn't have been able to play a Ugandan. I wouldn't be able to have, I wouldn't be able to do Black Panther and try my hand at...

Speaker 2 Xhosa.

Speaker 2 Said that very carefully.

Speaker 1 You know, and even...

Speaker 3 Yo, by the way, your Xhosa was great.

Speaker 2 Thank you. the way like

Speaker 3 you must remember like me and the crew watch and lupito like that's what like lupita would call me and be like hey i really want to nail this and i was like okay and i'll get the whole cosa contingent together because i was like look i know i have the ear for it yeah but i don't speak it as fluently but i would literally assemble everybody and i was like guys we cannot allow Lupita to slip up here.

Speaker 3 Please, no. We are not going to let her down.
And then all of us would have like a consensus, like from grandparents all the way down. And we'd be like, This is the line.

Speaker 3 How would she say it? And we're like, Okay, this is the cool way. This is the this is all like behind the scenes.
And then I would send Lupita a voice note, and I'd be like, You were my

Speaker 2 wealthy, your dialect,

Speaker 2 I was like, This is how

Speaker 3 the people have agreed, Lupita. This is how we would say it.

Speaker 3 And when we watched the movie together, like all of us were sitting there, like proud African grandparents, we're like, Oh, Yambona, Lupita, Yambona,

Speaker 3 Every single time you would be like, Thank you, man.

Speaker 1 I put it to work, yo.

Speaker 1 And thank you for being there, speed doubt, because you know, sometimes things would change on set last minute, and they're like, Okay, here's something else we want you to say in Crossa.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, Oh my God, like,

Speaker 2 so thank you. No, you nailed it.
A thousand times over, you nailed it.

Speaker 1 But yeah, so that the training at Yale was not just about sounding American.

Speaker 1 It was about being able to pick apart accents and hear them, them, you know, just hear the nuances and find the change in your mouth, your tongue, the vocal placement, the resonance, all of that.

Speaker 1 So, learning how language and accent work technically

Speaker 1 helped me to be able to actually play more Africans.

Speaker 1 So, I would say it's great to go into a program and to allow yourself to expand beyond the limitations of

Speaker 1 your identity.

Speaker 3 We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

Speaker 2 Talking about expanding beyond limitations.

Speaker 2 I often think with African stories told by Africans, whether from Africa or in the diaspora, we always want to lean towards the more positive side because everything is so negative in the Western media.

Speaker 2 But what I like about the podcast, there are a lot of like heartbreaking stories in there. I thought thought Evelyn's story about

Speaker 2 being shipped from Canada to Ghana against her will. That is an experience.
I know so many kids that were shipped back and their parents tricked them.

Speaker 2 And it's kind of a thing that's not spoken about publicly, but you really managed to humanize. It's one of the sadder elements of the African experience that needs to be told, but.

Speaker 2 It's really done in a dignified way.

Speaker 1 Oh, thank you. And it's by giving the mic to the people who have experienced it and allowing them to tell their story.
That had been actually actually my initial idea.

Speaker 1 In the beginning, I wasn't going to share any of my own stories. And then nobody wanted to buy the podcast.

Speaker 1 And actually, Normal Lajam was like, yeah, man, you have to, we want to hear from you. You're the gateway to the other stories.
And so I had to,

Speaker 1 I had to.

Speaker 1 be

Speaker 1 more open than I intended to be, more vulnerable than I intended to be. But I.

Speaker 3 Was that hard for you, by the way?

Speaker 2 It was.

Speaker 1 because

Speaker 1 I have been very deliberate. The way I present myself to a public is very curated, right? And I do it sparingly.
And I

Speaker 1 like to be buttoned up. And this podcast was about being messier and, you know, and just showing more of like...
myself when I'm at home and my socks are off, my bra is off. And that's difficult.

Speaker 2 You, Peter, you are a very private African woman

Speaker 2 oh she is but she is like we don't share our business in that way yeah very private yeah we're superstitious

Speaker 3 there's a connection there yeah i i was actually thinking about that and i when i when i was listening to you speak and i was i was thinking i was like it is very much an african thing you don't air your business you don't air your family's business yeah you don't even air like your people's business you know in a way you know like i remember one day i never thought of it like consciously but one day i i was back in South Africa.

Speaker 3 This is when I'm still hosting the daily show.

Speaker 3 And someone came up to me in the street and they were like, Trevor, can I just tell you, man, we're very proud of you. You're doing a great job.

Speaker 3 But most importantly, I'm so glad that you are not telling Americans what is happening here.

Speaker 3 Because, Trevor, that is our business.

Speaker 2 Don't go there and paint our country for other people.

Speaker 3 But when you are here, I was happy you are still doing it.

Speaker 3 When you are here, you were talking about our president.

Speaker 2 You were telling us what's wrong. but it wasn't good in America.

Speaker 3 And I was like, wow, it really is an African thing that we have, like where I find like Americans are very much like, let me tell you everything that's, it's tell-all.

Speaker 2 They just met you and they'll tell you all that.

Speaker 3 It's a very tell-all thing.

Speaker 3 Even in the industry, how, like, I'd love to know how you found the balance and how you, in the same way you found the balance in like navigating like your accent and where you're from, how do you find the balance in like sharing in a world where people want more from you, but then also like maintaining like your privacy.

Speaker 3 Because people do look to you, and I've seen people go, Oh, Lupita, thank you for sharing these stories.

Speaker 3 Thank you for sharing stories of heartbreak, or thank you for talking to us about like your journey in acting.

Speaker 3 Or like, how have you found that balance and still keeping what you want to be precious and then knowing what you want to share with others?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I try, and I am private, but I also want to be real,

Speaker 1 you know, and I think it's a negotiation between

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 constantly. And when I think, but I also work from a very vulnerable place.
To be an actor is to be vulnerable, at least for me.

Speaker 1 And while I'm taking on all these different characters, I'm always putting myself on the line, right? Because I'm always exposing myself to things I don't know. And

Speaker 1 the only way to do that is to remain tender.

Speaker 2 and vulnerable.

Speaker 1 And so when it comes to my own life, I guess I think about, okay,

Speaker 1 how can this help? I want to be additive. I don't want to be, I don't know,

Speaker 1 masturbatory about the things that I share. You know what I mean? It's not,

Speaker 1 so the things that I share, I want to share because I feel it may be of use to somebody else. So that's why I talked about heartbreak, because it was so real to me.

Speaker 1 And I was looking at the landscape of social media and how we're always presenting our most positive side.

Speaker 3 Truly, our most perfect side.

Speaker 1 Our most perfect side, our most aspirational side. And yet, here I was going through something so

Speaker 1 devastating.

Speaker 1 And I just wanted to be real about it in order for me to be able to live in that realness better, you know? And also, so that when people saw me,

Speaker 1 they wouldn't be surprised if I'm not, oh, yeah, my husband.

Speaker 1 If I'm not vibrant and vivacious, because this is not a vibrant and vivacious moment, and there is a time for everything. And that was my time for grief.

Speaker 1 And then, with this podcast, my deep, deep-seated desire was truly to kind of challenge that African

Speaker 1 mentality of keeping things so closed, because I think it robs us of an opportunity to better understand each other, right?

Speaker 1 When you turn on the radio, and the only thing is the bad news, the gossip, and

Speaker 1 American like Hollywood affairs and issues, we are robbing ourselves of an opportunity to understand ourselves one story at a time.

Speaker 1 And so much empathy is gained when we can just hear a story of someone that is so unfamiliar, but going through something that is familiar to us.

Speaker 1 And so I want for us as Africans to understand each other better and to go beyond our very limited expectations of ourselves because we're not having those conversations, you know?

Speaker 1 So hopefully this is contributing to our own understanding of who we are today. Because we're always grappling, don't you feel, with like with tradition and modernity

Speaker 1 and, you know, that thing of like, that's very un-African. You know, you hear that a lot, but is it? Is it?

Speaker 1 And one of the ways to challenge what is African is to actually get Africans talking about their unique experiences.

Speaker 3 It's interesting.

Speaker 3 In the specificity of your podcast, I feel like you've tapped on something that

Speaker 3 sort of touches on everyone and everything. You know, like America as a whole is a place where people are always asked to sort of like check their identity at the door.

Speaker 3 But then what they don't realize is they're also asked to then adopt an identity. But what is that identity? And America always struggles and grapples with this.

Speaker 3 You know, it's like you see it throughout time. It's like the Irish get here and people are like, we don't like the Irish.
You're not Irish.

Speaker 3 Until the Irish are are like, okay, we're not Irish, we're American. And it's like, but what is American and who defined what American is?

Speaker 3 Nobody actually sits and says, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, but what is American? You know, and even in the UK, you're seeing this. Okay, but what is British? What is English?

Speaker 3 You know, and when you go now back to Africa, you even find people saying things.

Speaker 3 I remember saying to my friends one day, I said, Do you ever think about how when we sit around, and I've seen this mirrored in America, we'll sit around with each other and we'll say,

Speaker 3 that's not black. Do it the black way or do it the, then I go like, but have you noticed how many times we will say that?

Speaker 3 And what we mean is it's not sophisticated, it's not considered, it's not, you know what I mean? So we'll go like,

Speaker 3 if it is sophisticated, if it is considered, if it is, if it has a level of panache, then we're like, ah, that's not black. And it's like, but who taught us this? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 Who taught us that black is not suave? Yeah. Who taught us that black is not, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Why does black have to be only the negative things as opposed to like an evolution of black in addition to something that is do you know what i mean yes i know exactly what you mean and it's a reductive um yeah identity yeah completely and one that is created by an exclusivity from another group right

Speaker 1 and that in itself we have to challenge because who gave us that identity who gave us those limited self-beliefs you know and we get to reclaim ourselves on a daily basis i like um you you using the word reclaim.

Speaker 2 I say this as a mother, one of my favorite stories in the podcast is the breastfeeding story

Speaker 2 involving her cousin Fiona. We'll not spoil it, but it goes somewhere you don't think it's going to be.

Speaker 3 It's a disaster, but it's a great, like it's, yeah.

Speaker 2 But it's just like, I can't remember. Whenever you think of breastfeeding, I saw African women around me breastfeeding.
That's why I made the choice to do it.

Speaker 2 But when it came to me having my first son, the images I saw of women breastfeeding didn't look like me because breastfeeding has become something that is associated with being a white, affluent, privileged woman who has the time to be at home with her child, right?

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 But the images I saw were my mother and my aunts. And it's funny, but like African women breastfeeding is not something that you see.
on television.

Speaker 2 It's not something that I've seen depicted, but it's something that's spoken about extensively in this episode of the podcast. And it's that reclamation of things that we also do.

Speaker 2 We also do these very special, yet ordinary things but it's not we're not necessarily associated with it in the way we tell stories in the world right now hmm how interesting

Speaker 2 but i'm coming to that as somebody who like has breastfed for a long time longer than i would have liked to

Speaker 1 it was more than six months and it ends up being like a year and plus and i was just like i was like oh wow this is amazing that story i wanted to share it because of how how how outrageous it is yeah and again it breaks that thing of we don't share these things.

Speaker 1 Because it's actually, I don't know how true it is that we don't share these things. And my cousins were so ready to share that story.
I was so impressed with how ready they were to share this story.

Speaker 1 But it's lovely to see how it's opening up other conversations like that.

Speaker 1 I hadn't even thought about that aspect of the fact that there's been an erasure of imagery of African yeah you say that like this is stuff we're not willing to share and I do think we share what we share in private so it's refreshing to hear it public right expect because we are growing more public right we're we're growing more global yeah and so if we don't share these stories then we don't we're not present in in on a global platform yeah and that's so important and in the world of podcasting i was so hungry to hear stories like this that's why i i wanted to make this podcast and when people said no i was just stubborn about it because I was like, I know I'm not the only one who wants to hear these stories.

Speaker 1 I know that there are Africans out there that would appreciate this. It's exactly that, the global conversation that I wanted to contribute to for Africans to gather and see themselves with delight.

Speaker 3 And now it's time for a new segment, Coffee Connection, brought to you by Starbucks.

Speaker 3 I have to say,

Speaker 3 what Lupita is experiencing right now in her life with the podcast and with the stories that she's connecting people to is probably one of my favorite expressions of connection that I've ever seen.

Speaker 2 In what way?

Speaker 3 Well, like, we sometimes forget how wonderful and important it is to connect to ourselves and to the worlds that we've come from. You know,

Speaker 3 we always connect going forward. And I think sometimes it's only when we get really old that we think of connecting backwards.

Speaker 2 I know what you mean, yeah. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 Because life is always going forwards. It's always going forward, it's always going forwards.

Speaker 3 And then you see old people, and they are really in touch with connecting backwards, sitting with their friends, talking to grandkids, talking to their kids.

Speaker 3 So, there's like a beautiful, and I don't know what it was like for you, but when I was growing up, that was like the number one thing that my grandmother loved to do. It was like coffee and tea.

Speaker 3 Yeah, you know, they'd be like,

Speaker 3 You know what I mean? It was like, and that was the thing like grannies loved. Yeah, of course.
Like African grannies, it was always like, I've got my coffee and my tea and my bread.

Speaker 3 Like my great-grandmother loved coffee, and then my grandmother loved tea. And they would just sit around with their bread and their cup of whatever beverage they'd chosen.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 And they would just connect. And that's where you'd hear all the stories.
And that's where you'd sort of hear all the gossip. That was my favorite thing.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. That's, I mean, what's coffee without gossip?

Speaker 2 What's coffee? It's funny. I saw

Speaker 2 my husband's auera yesterday. I went and saw her in the Heights.
And the first thing they said to me is like, Christiana, do you want coffee? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 The Dominicans, they're like, coffee is such an integral part of culture. And it's just like, you can't say no.
You have to say yes, even though it's.

Speaker 3 What is their style of coffee, by the way? Is it like a...

Speaker 3 Because I know every region will have like a different vibe.

Speaker 2 I'm going to mess it up. They make it in like this metal thing.
I don't know the name of it. And they put it over the stove.
Oh, yeah. Okay.
I've seen that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, they put it over the stove and it's strong. It's like an espresso.
And they're like, it's much, as much sugar as you want. But it's made with like so much love.
So, I couldn't say no.

Speaker 2 And then we like caught up over coffee.

Speaker 3 That's what I love.

Speaker 2 I just love it. I don't know.

Speaker 3 Till this day, when I smell coffee brewing or tea, my brain goes, there's a story coming up. Yeah.
There's like it has like a warm feeling of like,

Speaker 3 tell me what's going on in your life or tell me what's happening with the neighbors.

Speaker 2 Exactly. And especially like, it's kind of low stakes enough to make someone feel comfortable.
Oh, I like it.

Speaker 2 Because if you say to someone, let's meet up for wine, then you're like, you don't know what it's going to be. But it's coffee.

Speaker 1 It feels kind of casual.

Speaker 2 And then as time goes on, the gossip flows.

Speaker 3 If my grandmother ever said to me, Trevor, let's grab a glass of wine. And I'll be like, Granny, what's going on in your life?

Speaker 2 And how can I help?

Speaker 3 That would have been a red flag for me.

Speaker 2 Well, coffee is the, what do you call it?

Speaker 1 It's a green flag.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it really is. Definitely is a green flag.
All right, well, that's our coffee break. It's time to get back into our conversation with Lupita.

Speaker 3 It's a great day for coffee. It's a great day for Starbucks.
We'll be right back with more Lupita Nyongo.

Speaker 3 You know, listening to you talk about the journey of making your podcast, it highlights for me like

Speaker 3 the journey of like navigating what I call the data lie.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 I have a few friends who are like engineers or data scientists or they just work in the field.

Speaker 3 And then like some of them work at Netflix, some of them work for Microsoft, some of them, but they work at all these like tech companies. And the biggest argument I will have with them is about data.

Speaker 3 And I always say to them, I go, like, data is a liar,

Speaker 2 right?

Speaker 3 Because data looks back and then tries to assume forward.

Speaker 3 And so it's limited in what it can tell you about the world.

Speaker 3 And when I'm listening to your story, I think of how many times, it's funny, Norm, you know, who we both know is my manager, he said, everyone in Hollywood is in a mad dash to be second.

Speaker 3 And when he, yeah, when he, that line really stuck me, he said, everyone in Hollywood is in a mad dash to be second.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 And I was like, what do you mean? And he explained it to me. And I was like, yeah, but this is so true.

Speaker 3 Think about how many times a story has been told, a movie has been made, a show has been created. And once that shows a success, like, let's say, like a simple one, like the office.
Yes.

Speaker 3 You go like, no, people don't want to, you can't look at the camera and you can't do it. And then Ricky Gervais did it in the UK and it was obviously popular.
They try things all the time.

Speaker 3 They bring it to America. I don't know.
I don't becomes huge. And then everyone does it now.
All of a sudden, modern family, parks and recreation, everyone's looking in the camera.

Speaker 3 Everyone's making a mockumentary. And now it's the most normal thing to do.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 And then you look at the next story. You go like, oh, let's make this.
I don't know if this would, oh, is there a market? Is it going to resonate? I'm hearing the same thing here in a way.

Speaker 3 It's like you go, let's make these stories

Speaker 3 for Africans. or like by Africans rather.
Not even for them first.

Speaker 3 And I can see people going, oh, but Lupita, we just don't find Africans are big fans of podcasts.

Speaker 3 I've even heard people say that, by the way, right, right. And then I go, Yeah, because no offense to anyone on the podcast, but like, who are they relating to?

Speaker 1 Exactly, exactly. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 Yeah, and why is an African person going to just listen to some random podcast in Ohio? Right. And then become like, I'm a big fan of podcasts.

Speaker 3 I was listening to one about the malls that are stretching through America. Ah, man, whatever.
Like, why? And

Speaker 3 I like that you.

Speaker 3 Where do you think you got that from?

Speaker 3 This sort of obstinate idea of like, I'm going to push, I'm going to, think about everything you've done and how brazen and revolutionary it is. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 You are a dark-skinned black woman from Kenya coming to America to act in Hollywood movies and not as extra number seven, but as lead character.

Speaker 2 Number one on the coaches.

Speaker 3 Yeah, like when I was watching Quiet Place, and I'm just like, I was watching.

Speaker 3 I mean, I don't know if you still feel it, and I hope maybe you don't because you're in it, but but I was watching this and I was like, people, can we just pause for a moment?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 This is her movie.

Speaker 3 And I think people take for granted. And no one in the cinema is going like, huh, that's interesting.

Speaker 3 When does the white star come in? No. People are just, oh, it's her from.

Speaker 3 Where did you get that from? Like, this idea that I'm going to push for the podcast? They say, no, you go, no, I'm going to do it. They go, hey, your accent is thick.

Speaker 3 You go, no, no, I'm going to do it. You know, they go, you're from Africa.
You go, I'm going to do it.

Speaker 3 where do you get that from?

Speaker 2 Hmm.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 1 would, I believe

Speaker 1 it's my parents. My parents didn't raise me to be limited by

Speaker 1 my gender, my ethnicity, my nationality.

Speaker 1 They just didn't. And I think that

Speaker 1 That is where, because

Speaker 1 I'm so grateful that I had parents that supported me from day one. And my parents are not your conventional African parent.

Speaker 1 They never ever told me who I needed to be, except my mom made me take French. But other than that,

Speaker 1 it was all about

Speaker 1 what are you interested in and do that to the best of your ability. And because I was born in Mexico and I had this Mexican name,

Speaker 1 I always had the feeling that I belonged to someone somewhere else other than Kenya. So I grew up always curious about this place that I was born.
And I had books in Spanish that I didn't understand.

Speaker 1 And I would just pour

Speaker 1 through them with a longing to one day understand.

Speaker 1 And I think those things, like those feeding me with these elements of

Speaker 1 global curiosity really, really, I think, gave me that foundation of I belong in the world you know and at the time i wouldn't have said that i didn't i don't think that i've i've i've moved through the world with like a you know chest out i this the world's my oyster certainly not but a curiosity and a

Speaker 1 disbelief that i am unwelcome Oh, I love that.

Speaker 3 You know, like disbelief that I am unwelcome.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Like my default is not to feel unwelcome.
My default is to seek welcome,

Speaker 1 you know?

Speaker 1 And so I don't look for rejection.

Speaker 1 I experience it,

Speaker 1 but

Speaker 1 I think I have more hope and faith than doubt

Speaker 1 as a default.

Speaker 1 So like, I remember when I got to, when I auditioned for drama school, I came all the way from Kenya, right? My dad bought me that ticket to come to America to audition. I had three auditions,

Speaker 1 and it was NYU, it was Yale, and it was UCSD.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 these auditions were all taking place on the East Coast. And I would go there, and people were nervous, and people were like checking each other out.
And I was just like, I have come too far.

Speaker 1 I've just come too far to be worried about you, you, and you.

Speaker 2 Like, I just can't.

Speaker 1 I'm going to go in there. I know what I know.
I don't know what I don't know. I'm going to give it my best.
And then they're either going to say, yes, you come, or no, you go home.

Speaker 1 But like, I don't have time. I just didn't have time for self-doubt in that moment.

Speaker 1 You know? And so I think that may have translated in the room, you know. And then I got to school and people were like.

Speaker 1 fretting about, oh, why do we have to do this and that? And I was like, I don't have time to fret. I need to pick whatever I can from this program and make the most of it.

Speaker 1 Because, again, I have just come too from too far.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I just cannot, I cannot be. I was so grateful also to have the opportunity to just focus on my art.
I did not come from a society that was supportive of my interests.

Speaker 1 No, my parents were, and they always were safeguarding my interests. But my extended family, they were like, when are you going to get serious?

Speaker 1 You need to do something of mana, you know, which means of substance, you know?

Speaker 1 When, you know, this, this acting.

Speaker 1 Why don't you act like a doctor you know yeah this acting acting amundi you have to get serious you know and i got that a lot so i was the i was often the child i was often the the the the friend that my my friend's parents wouldn't let me come to their house because i was a bad influence because i had my hair was blue you know i was weird

Speaker 1 yeah i was weird i was always like um unconventional right and so being that oddity like

Speaker 1 by the time I got to this, I was just like, no, I got to get on with it.

Speaker 1 I can't allow for someone else's doubt to stop me. I can't allow for my own doubt to stop me.
You know, I have to, I had to

Speaker 1 externalize the rejection

Speaker 1 and not allow for myself to inflict myself with the rejection.

Speaker 2 Lupita, I'm really curious.

Speaker 2 Do you think something about being raised in Kenya kind of insulated you from a lot of the messages that I think young black girls, particularly dark black girls, experience in the West about colorism, complexion, hair.

Speaker 2 And because it seems like you just gave yourself the latitude to take up space.

Speaker 1 Yes. But, you know, I did experience colorism as well growing up.
I experienced that. And I experienced a lot of,

Speaker 1 I had issues with self-esteem. So I wasn't spared that.
But the difference is that I came from a majority population. So my issue was not being black.

Speaker 1 It may have been being dark, but my issue was not being black. And I think, and so I was not othered in that same way.
And as much as I was being teased by how dark I was, everybody was dark.

Speaker 2 Tell me, what are you saying? Even you, you know?

Speaker 1 So the self-worth thing, there was always like counters to it, right? And so I didn't have a society that was limiting me in the same way, you know?

Speaker 1 And I, and I didn't have a political system that I was fighting against in that same way.

Speaker 1 And I had other markers of identity.

Speaker 1 I was a woman. I was a Luo, I was upper middle class.
There were other things that I was

Speaker 1 anchoring and contending with than just this question of like

Speaker 1 my external self

Speaker 1 being the only marker of my value. And I have a lot of empathy for

Speaker 1 the experience one must have of being raised in America, where that value system is so much, it's just such a, it's a lot more drastic because of the racial paradigms and the history.

Speaker 1 And I definitely feel grateful that my identity was built

Speaker 1 internally.

Speaker 3 Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now after this?

Speaker 1 Wow. But yeah, so but the idea that like my black card would be snatched from me didn't exist.
No, that's not that didn't exist because I didn't have

Speaker 1 that language.

Speaker 1 I didn't have that racial language. It was just, she's weird.
She's just weird.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, but I was not, it's not a larger,

Speaker 1 I don't know, it's just not a larger indication, right? So I was allowed to sell, even though it was met with a side eye, I was allowed to self-express a whole lot more and

Speaker 1 figure out my individuality

Speaker 1 without, yeah, without that, that sort of like

Speaker 2 cultural or

Speaker 1 yeah, just that tension.

Speaker 2 Because you have like this beautiful confidence, right? That you, and you're very poised and you, you carry it through the world. And it seems like America hasn't affected it.
at all.

Speaker 2 And that's a very difficult thing to do.

Speaker 2 I would say when I came here, I was like, all just being raised in the West, being black, British, you're confronted with these ideas all the time of your value being less than, that you're always having to overcome, fight against, but you seem to retain a great sense of self.

Speaker 2 And how have you done that? I'm curious.

Speaker 1 Well, I think it helps that I came here as an adult, right? So when I first came, I was 20.

Speaker 1 And so, and I had to, it was a crash course,

Speaker 1 learning America. And as an African, you can ignore the racial dynamics, but oh, you're going to feel them.

Speaker 1 So I went to a liberal arts school where people were asking these questions and the idea of racial,

Speaker 1 what is it called?

Speaker 1 Just

Speaker 1 racial

Speaker 1 awareness theory, understanding that history was something that I was thrust into and

Speaker 1 picked up on, you know, and

Speaker 1 I have

Speaker 1 group of friends that were always inquisitive and talking about these things in very, very deep ways. I mean, we never had light conversations.
It was always so deep and exhausting, actually.

Speaker 1 But, you know, I was able to develop a racial understanding, but in a way that wasn't

Speaker 1 formative, right?

Speaker 1 It was my brain first before my heart.

Speaker 2 Oh, no, yeah. Right?

Speaker 1 My brain first.

Speaker 1 And then, of course, doing 12 years a slave was very, very helpful for me because I had to go back in history and take that time personally, you know, that period of time very personally.

Speaker 1 And it really helped me understand modern-day America with a lot of

Speaker 1 empathy,

Speaker 1 you know, that I can now,

Speaker 1 I felt

Speaker 1 in a very personal way. But I think I really, I don't know.
I don't know whether I have a formula or an understanding of it. It's something that I don't question, you know?

Speaker 1 And I think like if I if I try and understand it, I might jinx it.

Speaker 2 I might lose it. I might lose it.

Speaker 1 I might lose it. But

Speaker 1 I remember like

Speaker 1 my mom, there was a time when my visa ran out after my undergraduate degree. I had done 12 years of slave, but

Speaker 1 I was on OPT when I did 12 years a slave. Still on a student visa.
I was on a student visa, right?

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 So and that was only for a year, right? And it was running out. 12 years wasn't out yet.
And I was facing this thing of like, do I try and stay or do I go home, you know?

Speaker 1 And I got this project that he offered me this role.

Speaker 1 I was going to play like a Nigerian maid. And it was just

Speaker 2 so,

Speaker 1 and it was infuriating. It was one of those stereotypical roles that I felt was just taking me backwards.
If I did it, but if I did it, I got to stay in the country and pursue my dream further.

Speaker 1 And I couldn't take it. I couldn't take it.
And my mom said to me, You have a roof over your head and people who love you in Kenya.

Speaker 1 You do not need to struggle in America for them for them to accept you. You're accepted here.
And being reminded of that, that I belong somewhere, I belong to a people,

Speaker 1 I think that really bolstered me. And I chose not to do that project.

Speaker 1 And in the end, of course,

Speaker 2 everything transpired. And it's worked out.

Speaker 1 This is the good news. But I think I really want to give my parents credit because they instilled in me self-worth that I go back to again and again.

Speaker 1 And sometimes it slips, but I have my family to remind me of who I am. Right.
And I know that I am not, I am, my value doesn't come in what I've achieved. It comes from who I am and who I'm like,

Speaker 3 who I'm continually trying to be I can't help but think about how important it is for countries and societies to adopt many of the ideas that you're speaking about now because

Speaker 3 I remember I remember speaking to a friend of mine

Speaker 3 from Compton and he's a comedian and we were chatting about life as you know an African-American and as an African and we were comparing our experiences and our lives and so many there were so many similarities

Speaker 3 and I said to one day he looked at me and he's like, man, he's like, he's like, I ain't going to lie. He's like, it feels like we live the same life.

Speaker 3 He said, but man, he's like, I still wish I had, I still wish I had home.

Speaker 3 And I said, what do you mean by that, really? And when he described it, he said something that I realized America as a whole would, I think, could stand to benefit from.

Speaker 3 What you said

Speaker 3 in Kenya, no one could take away your black card. No one could take away your Kenyan card.
Do you know know what I'm saying? No one takes away like your Nigerian card.

Speaker 3 No one takes away your South African card. We will fight with each other in South Africa about everything.
You're this, you're trash, you're this, you're up, you're down, whatever it might be.

Speaker 3 But no one will say you're not South African.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I listening to you, I can't help but think about like how America has unfortunately created this system where people's belonging can be like taken away and then given back and then take and on different levels.

Speaker 3 You look at African Americans. It was you're not American.
American okay you are American and then now you complain then you're not American

Speaker 3 and then you're not American and no you're not and then it's like okay you're not no you're you're not how black are you you know and it gets taken it gets given and it gets and then now it's almost extended to everyone how dare you complain about this country you're not American maybe you need to go to another and it's it's powerful to hear you you saying

Speaker 3 how much peace and confidence it gives you knowing that you are here regardless of like your actions, your successes, your contributions. Your mom saying to you, hey, just you have a roof.

Speaker 3 You have people who love you. Imagine the power that would have like when a country would say that, hey, yeah, you don't agree with this.
You don't, you're still American. Yeah, you're enough.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you're enough. You're enough.

Speaker 1 That is such a powerful thing. Yeah, to really truly believe that you're enough, but for a country to...
to support that narrative.

Speaker 1 I think something that America does really well is create narratives about itself. Definitely.
Right? And that's why you can, it's like you either fit the narrative or you don't.

Speaker 1 Who's determining which narrative is the American narrative? You know, there is that thing. And it is unfortunate.
And it's only now that I'm realizing, talking to you,

Speaker 1 the way that

Speaker 1 my consciousness is different because I, my, my Kenyanness

Speaker 1 has never been in question. Even when they're fighting between Kenya and Mexico about where I belong.
Like for me, there's no question, right? And also, I'm not limited to that, that paradigm. Yes.

Speaker 1 You know, like, I'm not trying to be Kenyan. I just am.
Yes. Right? I don't have to prove that I'm Kenyan.
Exactly. Even if people would want me to, I don't have to prove it.

Speaker 1 And like, I also realized my father. fought, has been fighting for the country.
I mean, we gave up, we, we basically,

Speaker 1 growing up, he was like

Speaker 1 more

Speaker 1 there for the country oftentimes than with us, right? And so the fact that that blood, sweat, tears,

Speaker 1 my uncle

Speaker 1 disappeared and was never found again. My family has fought for that country in such a way that like

Speaker 1 it belongs to me. And I remember when

Speaker 1 I was here and I was working on my green card and working towards citizenship, I was debating whether I was going to

Speaker 1 apply for citizenship and I asked my dad, like, Daddy, what does it mean if I apply to be a citizen of America? Like, how does that make you feel? He was like, Amundi,

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 1 country is yours as much as this one. The world is yours.
This idea of borders is something we made up, you know? So we get to belong, you know?

Speaker 1 And it's unfortunate that there's political systems that want to convince you that you don't belong, but you're of the earth, you know, and it's yours to claim.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I love that idea. And whenever I meet people who don't fully understand it, I've come to realize that they do it in their own lives without knowing, you know.

Speaker 3 So people like, well, you got to choose. I don't like it when people say they're, you know, something American.
I don't like it when people say there's something.

Speaker 3 Then I go, but you, you do that as well. I'm like, where do you live? And without even flinching, you'll tell me, well, I mean, I'm between, you know, I'm between New York and Connecticut.

Speaker 3 I'm between Florida and New York. I'm like, people do it all the time.

Speaker 3 There's a honesty and duality that exists, you know?

Speaker 3 You can be like both a mother and a woman. And the two, while they overlap, aren't necessarily the same thing all the time.

Speaker 3 You know what I'm saying? You can be young and this. You can be, you know what I mean? It's like ambiguity.
It really is. And it's the nuance and ambiguity that I think is really beautiful.

Speaker 3 But I would love to know

Speaker 3 where you see these stories or these ideas going.

Speaker 3 Your whole journey has been such a wonderful evolution.

Speaker 3 As you say, it's like 12 years a slave.

Speaker 3 You would be forgiven if you took the path that was presented to you after 12 years a slave, which is like, okay, you do this very well. And so we would like you to do it forever.

Speaker 3 And I must also say, This question is not about Hollywood per se. It's just that you happen to work in a film industry.
But I think a lot of people deal with this. You did something well.

Speaker 3 And so the world said to you, hey, do more of it. And then you went and did something completely different.

Speaker 2 And they said, oh, wow. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 Okay, do more of that. And then you said, no, I'm going to do something completely different.
And they go, okay, do more of that. And do more of that.

Speaker 3 But here you are, I mean, with a podcast that is telling stories about Africans that everyone can enjoy, by the way. Like people, I hope people listen to understand.

Speaker 3 They're really funny and interesting. And the best way I can explain it to you is don't go like, oh, but will I get it? It's an African story.
I go like, no, no, think of it this way.

Speaker 3 All food basically has the same ingredients. We just cook with different spices and different flavors.
And so it's like, try a story with a different flavor. That's really all it is.
I like that.

Speaker 2 You know? I like that.

Speaker 3 And so I'd love to know where you would like to see this evolution continue towards. Like, what does Lupita dream of doing beyond just telling the stories on the podcast?

Speaker 3 And I know you're always thinking bigger. Where do you hope to go now?

Speaker 1 Well, my.

Speaker 1 My secret intention with the podcast is that, first of all, I wanted to popularize popularize African perspective because one of the challenges is when you go in with an idea for an African story, they're still scratching the head, like, who's the audience for this, you know, and all that.

Speaker 1 So that was my intention was to popularize African perspective in the hopes that maybe some of these will be a movie one day, you know?

Speaker 1 And like, it gives more of an opportunity for people to be like, oh yeah, it seems familiar, you know, and it's a it's a light lift. You just spend 40 minutes with me once a week.

Speaker 1 That's not much to ask. You're in traffic anyway.

Speaker 2 Put it on, you know, mind your own.

Speaker 1 And so, in that sense, hopefully, it works on the subconscious of people who are not African, who are not familiar with Africa, to just recognize it as familiar in a way that then we can grow

Speaker 1 and contribute to it becoming more of a global

Speaker 1 perspective.

Speaker 2 So there's that.

Speaker 3 I love that idea. I really do.
And I think if there's one person who is genuinely just talented and stubborn enough to achieve, it is you. No, because you push,

Speaker 3 like your line,

Speaker 3 it'll really stick with me. It's like not expecting the rejection, not accepting the rejection,

Speaker 3 experiencing it, but really saying, no, you know what? This is where I'm going, this is what I'm trying to do, and the world is a better place for it. Thank you for spending the time with us.

Speaker 3 Thank you for sharing the beautiful stories. I know Wild Robot is out as well.
That's going to be amazing for people to watch. Lupita and Yongo, as always, an absolute pleasure.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much. This has been amazing.

Speaker 2 Appreciate you. Yeah.

Speaker 3 What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jodi Avigan.

Speaker 3 Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer.
Music, Mixing and Mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 3 Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now.