American Amnesia with Tressie McMillan Cottom [VIDEO]

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Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone and start using Apple Card right away. Subject to credit approval, savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility savings and apple card by goldman sachs bank usa salt lake city branch member fdic terms and more at applecard.com a lot of politicians if they're accusing like the pelosi or the clinton class really don't know what ordinary people are feeling, right? And for some reason, he's able to be tuned in on the culture wars in ways that like surprised me.
He's chronically online. Yes, he is.
I was just about to say, let me tell you what the through line is for me that resolves, I would say about 80% of this for me. And I'm like you, Gretchenna.
I've spent a lot, a lot, a lot of time thinking about this and kind of like holding that voter up in like perverse fascination, like what's happening in there. And I do think your point gets at it, Trevor, which is I'm not sure that understand is the right word.
I don't think you need to understand to act. Yeah.
To be able to observe something accurately doesn't mean you diagnose it properly Yes that's what I mean Right He is the only politician out there right now Who says a thing is a thing Thank you that's what I mean That doesn't mean This is why I need Tracey around This is what I need You came here to be on my side No I'm not on my side What I mean is that she articulates. This is what Tressie does brilliantly.
She articulates an idea in the most crystal way possible. It's exactly this.
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Always pay careful attention to the road and do not drive while distracted. Please tell me, did you see the Elon Musk Trump White House Tesla sale? Car sales show? No, I didn't see that.
Oh, yeah. The only thing I was missing was Vanna White.
When was this? Yesterday. So, literally, it's so funny because we've been talking about Elon Musk on the podcast, all these things.
Trump brought Elon Musk to the White House or Elon Musk brought Trump to the White House. Who knows? Yeah.
Depending on where think the power lies right so Elon Musk is there and Trump's there they bring a Tesla and Trump's like I'm buying a Tesla with my own money and which nobody believes and the man did a full on infomercial someone took a picture of Trump's notes he was he was handed the sales notes So the price of each car with self-drive. This is so embarrassing.
And then like a little asterisk, like terms and conditions at the bottom. Please self-drive is free.
It just needs to be activated on all of the cars. This car costs this much.
That one costs this much. For low zero APR for 36 months.
I'm like, this is the president of the United States. Yep.
Sh on the front you know what it was for me if Trump had even a modicum of panache he would have brought it as more of a this is American ingenuity that's what's supposed to happen yes you go yeah I just wanted to take a moment to show you why America is great yeah and you know Elon here like just like you know just you know, just try and find, in South Africa, we used to say like, desist. It means like, it's almost like, find a way to like, it's like just add a little opaqueness to what you're doing.
Yeah, just make it a little cool. Make it a little, you know what I mean? Bring in like three cars, but then focus on Elon's one.
No, no, no. This man full on, for this low price, one time off.
And then he gets guys out this moment. You know Trump? Only Donald Trump.
He gets in the car. He gets...
So the car is there. The car's there.
It's on the lawn. The car's in...
Like, you know, the front of the White House, I guess is where this is, right? So the car's there. They pulled it up.
Yeah. And then they get in, right? And Trump goes, first of all, Trump's like, no, I can't drive.
I'm not... Because I'm not allowed to drive.
drive I want to be like can you drive? I don't think that man can drive he's like I would drive but I can't they don't allow me I'm not allowed no drive does this whole thing they get in the car and then the President of the United States the man who claims to know where technology economies markets all of it. He gets in the car.
He looks at the instrument panel and exclaims, like somebody who has discovered a new world. He's like, wow, it's all computer.
Guys, he says it's all computer. So he's never been in a Tesla.
Yeah, but he doesn't say it's all digital. No, it's all computer, like your grandma.
It's all computer. Yeah, they put computer in car.
And he shouts it out to us like we don't know. He's like, it's all computer.
Wow, you look inside all of the, all computer. It's all, wow.
Yep, that's the man with the nuclear codes for you. Yeah.
Actually, I felt more calm. I was like, I actually don't mind if he had the nuclear code because if a man calls it computer if the car is all computer that man cannot launch anything you know who's sitting somewhere right now going are you kidding me it is Hillary Clinton do you remember when they made fun of her because she couldn't work the soda machine in a convenience store oh in a convenience store I don't remember was trail.
So, you know, America, you know, being a regular American. So they go to like a 7-Eleven.
And I always felt sorry for her because I do think those machines actually are overly complicated. And I really felt a rare moment of deep empathy for Hillary Rodham Clinton because she was like, she's got her cup, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it used to be a physical thing. You'd press that.
Believe that, right? Well, that's not, no more. You know that thing now that spins your cup and it does and you mix and flavors and all that.
And she was overwhelmed. And they acted like that woman had lost her mind.
Double standards. Yes.
Now Donald Trump didn't get in a car and say computer. But I think Trump is the only one

who gets the double standard

to be honest with you.

You think so?

I think every other politician

gets nailed

for the smallest things.

Eating pizza

with a knife and fork.

Who's the guy

who's screaming?

Yeah!

Oh Howard Dean.

Howard Dean.

Or Howard Dean.

It doesn't matter

if you're a man or a woman.

Binders full of women.

You name it.

You get Trump

has some

that's why they call him the Teflon Don Don The man does things That no other person could do Guys There is no one Who could maintain The level of respect That he will still maintain From his people After getting in a car And saying It's all computer Yeah I agree If my Six year old Or seven year old Said that I would slightly disappointed because I'd go, but you know that that's not how you say it. I would get them assessed.
I'd be like, let me get you assessed. Let's find out what's going on here.
Yeah, because baby, you've seen the tablet. You know that.
That's what I mean. Yeah.
But also, for me, it was also the... It's because of how Trump likes to paint himself

as the pinnacle of evolution, you know?

I don't know why.

I get hung up on these things

more than I do on him dismantling democracy

because that, to me, is almost...

I don't know how to explain it.

It's almost obvious.

Like, he's just doing it.

He's doing it.

And he said he's going to do it.

There's no subtext, and he's doing it, right?

Yes, he said he's going to do it,

and then he's doing it.

But then there are the small elements

where he gets exposed

for not being what he pretends to be

Thank you. Very good.
Very important. We got to bring.
We need more people in like wine experts. I was like, you mean a sommelier? Yeah.
Like if you're in upper society, if you are up in that world. You don't say a wine expert.
You don't say a wine expert. No, you don't.
Right. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
My quote from him is when he said, people are dying who have never died before. Okay, but to be fair, as a black American, I love that one.
Let me just tell you, the number of times I've heard an old Black woman say, they dying like they ain't never died before. And I thought, okay, well now that one, I can kind of get with.
People are dying who have never died before. Yeah, that one, yeah, we have a deep funeral culture where I'm from.
And I was like, I could see that one popping off. But think about Donald Trump or the moments like you.

I'm a little obsessed with these moments where he's clearly revealed.

And I think a lot about why didn't that work?

Why didn't that work?

Because the great story to me of Donald Trump is, you know, he's New York's version of a country bumpkin.

He's not a Manhattanite.

He was never accepted here.

That's what a lot of his grudge is about.

He learned, however, that if you just win enough, they will at least give you a ticket. He knows he's not invited because they like him.
But, you know, he learned that. And I think he just got still.
And I hate all the psychological explanations. Why? Why do you hate them? You know, because I just think it's very American of us.
Or because you're a sociologist. Yes, that's part of it.
This is absolutely professional envy. But because psychologists keep winning, and I'm not sure they got all the answers.
You know what I'm saying? But I also think it's like very American of us to think that, oh, it's only true if he really meant it. If there's something deep inside.
Oh, okay. And I'm like, it doesn't matter whether he means it.
It matters that he does it. And I'm like, you know, I don't really care if it's because he's insecure or if he— Lots of people are insecure and they still don't do horrible things to people.
So I think we can kind of over-rely on psychology to excuse away bad behavior, especially in politics. I'm like, does it really matter if he really hates trans people? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, why are we so obsessed? I've heard people have the same argument around Kanye. Yes.
So they'll go, yeah, okay, fine, he's bipolar. Fine, but still, he's doing the thing.
There are many bipolar people who are not doing the thing. That's exactly right.
But the one element I keep throwing out is, yes, but how many bipolar people are billionaires? Yes, it's the billionaire problem. Well, Kanye, I think he has a brain injury.
He kind of went through a car, right? He's got traumatic brain injury. No, I've never thought of it that way.
To me, he's like, you know those athletes with CTE? Yes. Who like kill their wives.
And it changes your whole personality. I'm like, this guy is a tripper.
I've never thought of that. He's got traumatic brain injury and bipolar and a billion dollars.
Put those three things together. That's my Kanye thing.
Oh, that's your theory. Yeah, I'm just like, yeah, I think he's got TBI.
I can't believe I never thought of that. He displays all the traits.
The violence, the unpredictability. But I don't know if, yeah, I'm conflicted on that because I often go, how much time should we spend trying to understand how people got there? And I almost feel like maybe the two can happen.
It's not binary. No.
On the one hand, we can say it's good to understand it because maybe if we understand it, we can try and figure out how to not let it happen again. Yeah.
You know, but then on the other hand, to your point, we shouldn't be using it as an excuse. So my thing on that is, I think this might be a division of labor problem, which I mean, like, does everybody need to understand it to condemn it? Right, the behavior.
It may just be that, okay, there are people who will puzzle out the how and the why. And then the rest of us, I think it takes a little humility to say, hey, I don't do that.
I don't know anything about it, but I do know that he said this thing that I find abhorrent. And so that's enough for me.
I think the problem is there are too many people who feel like they can diagnose. So for them that I need to personally understand before I can act.
I'm like, the world's just too complicated for that. That's true.
I think the thing I am still fascinated by is the Trump voter. Oh, yeah.
I'm curious about the psychology of the Trump. And bunch of trump voters people tell me their truth that's why people what are you what are you fascinated by what is it that you either don't understand or are trying to understand or you know because i think that when he first came to power the liberal media establishment spent a long time being like,

oh, it's because of

they're economically disempowered

and then the data show

that they weren't

economically disempowered.

It said they are afraid

of being in these diverse neighborhoods

with lots of immigrants

and it kind of showed that,

well, that's not the neighborhoods

they were living in.

We've never been able

to understand these people. And instead of them diminishing, it seems like there's more of them and there's more consensus.
And I think there's lots of simple explanations to why they do what they do. But he understands them.
Yes. Right? So I want to understand the people he understands.
Yeah. Because he understands his vote more than anybody else in the world.
I strongly agree. His political instincts are out of this world.

He said, I can say they're eating cats and dogs

and my people are not going to care.

And he knows where the kind of like,

what was it, the third rail is.

Like Trump knows where not to go, right?

Yes.

In ways that...

We act like he is reckless

to an unfathomable degree.

But I have seen him,

sometimes cakewalked up to a line

that you would assume he would cross. Yeah.
And he doesn't. Right.
He knew saying black jobs would resonate with, like, the foundational black Americans on Twitter. That's right.
And they were like, yeah, we know what he's talking about. Yeah.
So he understands them, but many other people don't understand them, especially the Democrats, the people saving democracy and trying to stave off fascism. Is that what they do? Well, they claim to be to be doing that's a follow-up question i had personally okay here's two things that i i think of sometimes in that regard i'd love to hear how you see it tracy because i go on the one hand i don't think that his understanding is special i'll put i'll put it there first what i do think is he he is thriving in an environment where everyone else spends more time, to your point, trying to understand things as opposed to just pointing them out.
You with me? So what I mean is Trump will go. The immigrants are coming in.
Too many immigrants. Then the person who's running against him will spend more time going.
We need to understand how, you know, people move around the globe and what migrationary patterns tell us about the stability of other you've lost people so what trump does really well is he starts with the problem and then he goes like we'll figure out the solution so let's think of it this way if you were walking across the road and a bus was coming towards you bus was gonna gonna hit you who who would you prefer? The person who says,

watch out,

there's a truck.

It's not a truck,

it's a bus.

Or the person who says to you,

ah,

if you,

excuse me,

if you do not vacate the road

as quickly as possible,

there may be a vehicle

that might make contact with,

and what I mean by that is like,

there's some politicians I find

who spend a lot of time

delicately trying to answer a question. Ask most politicians.
So do you think homelessness is bad in California? Well, you know, I think before we talk about what we need to think about, you see, and then where he's winning is he's being blunt. But that's not what I'm talking about.
That's what black jobs is. It's a shortcut to say something.
But I think it's the way he's able to intuit what people's problems are.

Being a man with no problems.

Right?

No, but he has them, by the way.

Sure he does.

No, he genuinely believes he has them.

Yeah, he believes he has them.

That's the difference.

But his diagnosis feels right.

Yes.

Right?

That is what I think, by the way, has cut across class and across race.

Yes.

This is what, like, my great aunt is 91, 92 years old.

And she goes, no, you are right.

He is one. There are a lot of people out there who shouldn't be here.
Yes. So remove them.
That seems like the most straightforward solution. Now, removing them means violating the Constitution, you know, violating human rights.
Even as they've learned, not having enough planes. Not having enough planes.
Right. There are all types of complications to that.
But remove constitution, you know, violating human rights. As they've learned, not having enough planes.
Not having enough planes. There are all types of complications to that.
But remove them resonates deeply with a lot of people for whom observing the problem is the diagnosis of the problem. Yes.
Yeah, remove problem. Yes, it's exactly that.
The other one I think that we take for granted, especially if you spend all your time in America, is this. And I love this Because I go home so frequently Now I'll be in South Africa and then obviously I live In America but I'll go home to South Africa, go back to South Africa Go back to South Africa, the biggest thing I've noticed Is we take For granted that when you give people Two choices they will pick one of the Two choices Right? And then you will spend a lot Of time asking yourself why they've picked one of the two choices but you're not asking yourself what having more choices would have revealed to you yeah right so let's let's let's think of it through the lens of sports one of the things that i've been most fascinated by in the world of sports is how fervently people support a team and yet how nuanced they are in their ability to support another team and what I mean by that is someone will go I'm a Lakers fan who are you and the person will be like uh I'm an

Oklahoma City fan they're like okay you cool yeah because you hate what I hate and then you didn't

lose as long as you're not a Boston Celtics that's right as long as you're not a Celtics fan we good

who are you oh you're a Knicks fan you're this fan you're and that's what happens in sports is

even when we talk about football in England I'm a Liverpool fan and then when we talk about who

We'll be right back. who are you oh you're a Knicks fan you're this fan you're and that's what happens in sports is even when we talk about football in England I'm a Liverpool fan and then when we talk about who we we go like if Man City wins I mean what's a man who's a Man City supporter you see it's a thing and if Man United wins it's even more now because it's like okay we're in the same region of the so so what I think sometimes people forget when they look at American politics is they spend a lot of time going why did these people choose this but they don't realize that if there are two choices they will choose one and because the parties themselves have become almost like i don't know what the right word would be but they they've almost gone if you have the issue we don't have it oh yeah and if you have the issue we don't have exclusive yeah about immigration so we can't that's my thing right so democrat so if i say to you okay who is a fan of saying whatever you want who would you say republican you see okay if i say to you who's a fan of lower taxes republican all right if i said to you who's a fan of um free health care democrat you see i don't think it should be like this politics should you should not be able to pinpoint Just like entire swaths Or groups in it You should be able to say Oh These parties Or these groups Or that said Oh this This governor believes that And that one doesn't believe this And this And you know you see that graph I'm sure you've seen it You know in all your work Tressie If you look at the There's a beautiful graph I once saw of the overlapping dots of policy that American lawmakers used to have.
You've seen it, yeah? Yes, yeah. And it shows you how a West Virginia Democrat was further from the same issues as a New York Republican.
They were like, no, no, West Virginia Democrat was actually quite close to a West Virginia Republican. And New York Democrat was actually close to a New York Republican.
It's just, you were like, you were inching. But now because politics has all become national, I think you're giving people two choices.
And so someone will go, because most people are single issue-ish voters. They'll go, to your point, remove them.
Who says remove them? Oh, only one party. All right, well, I guess I know who I'm voting for.
Who says we're keeping the coal jobs? Only one party? All right, I guess we're... Do you get what I'm saying? Yes.
We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. This episode is brought to you by Brooklinen.
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Oh, you're believed, like what you actually cared about? Let me tell you, the consternation it created at The Daily Show was one of my greatest joys. The New York Times came out with a little quiz.
You remember this? I do. And the quiz said, you, We're going to give you a list of issues And how you think they should be solved At the end of it, we'll tell you who you should vote for It was extremely popular But maybe not for all the right reasons Can I tell you The amount of people who had Existential crises People their phones going that that that can't i'm not i'm not a bernie fan at all i'm what do you mean i'm a i'm a hillary i'm a hillary i would never be a people were shocked to realize that the person they support doesn't actually support the issues or the policies that they would support and that's what i mean by you've given people the option so i would love to see what would happen if you said to americans oh that would be amazing i would just love to see what would happen if you said if you just said in america like actually we think america is polarized binary but i would love to see what would happen if you gave this country a chance to show how complex its tapestry is i would love to see what we would learn about people what are the the views on immigration? What are the, don't buffet politics people.
Don't be like, you chose this buffet, you chose that buffet. No, no, no.
A la carte, show me your politics. And all of a sudden we start to get more granular and we start to see things that we've never seen before.
Because I think the Democrats have now been able to occupy this position of being more progressive on race and i have not met more racist people than the liberal the liberal white people in new york who won't even send their kids to public school yeah like just the and the really subtle psychological warfare reminds me of the racism in england you know it's like so oh it's taken on a lot of the contours of English class-based racism. I think for the same reason.
Class became so important to the Democratic Party because they are trying to serve the interests of a donor class who has a lot of money while keeping the interests for their identity, we're progressive, we're liberals, aligned with working class, poor people, minority people, immigrants. So to reconcile those two things, right, think about who you have to be to have both of those things exist for you simultaneously.
You got to be delusional in kind of the same way that English people are who will tell me to my face, we don't have racism here. We do have class, but we don't have racism, as if these are too entirely distinct.
But you have to believe that when you have this, like, really structured class system. You have a monarchy.
And really formal. That's right.
And you have this really formal system of immigration, right? And I think the Democrats have oddly kind of a modified version of that for much of the same reasons. Their class politics right now do not align with their race politics.
And so you get a lot of people who make do with that for the same reason everybody went nuts over their results to the quiz. I mean, you think about who the typical New York Times reader is, daily show employee perhaps.
And what they realize is that they have accepted a lot of casual racism and policy so that they could keep their class politics, which is, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I absolutely think we should have more immigrants.
We're a nation of immigrants, but I do need local control over my schools. Yes.
Because I bought a house in a neighborhood that depends upon my kids going and being associated with the kids who do the right. Right.
That's the Democrats deal. And one of the things that Donald Trump did really well that they still don't have an answer for is he pointed out the hypocrisy of that.
He's brilliant at that. In the way that you and I always experienced it because we were always the black people vis-a-vis the Democrats.
So we knew it was hypocritical. But for him to point it out and do it so effectively is part of the reason why I think they are spinning out.

Yeah, he's done a great job at that.

That's what he's really good at saying to you.

Remember when he said, was that one of like,

ask Hillary and her friends about the taxes?

And when he goes, well, they don't, why haven't they done it?

Why haven't?

He's like, they've had the power.

They could have done it.

They had the presidency.

They had the Senate.

They had the House.

They didn't do it, folks.

They said it's a problem, but they didn't do it.

It's so interesting that you point that out because it was fascinating to see how ok cupid's founders we're going to have him on the podcast were able to see in the data that liberal people proud liberal people are the most did not act in according to what they said

in terms of their views.

We love that data, by the way,

as sociologists say,

which we am talking about sometimes.

We love the OKCupid data

because our personal lives

are the only place left

in this culture

where we feel safe

being racist, classist, elitist,

and ableist.

Because we say, what?

It's just our preference.

I can't help who, you know, gets me going. That's biology.
This has been my favorite thing is when they get asked this. People get asked this in random forums.
They'll be like, cool. They'll be like, cool white people.
Cool, cool, cool. And then someone, because things are so cool, someone will say to them, have you ever dated a black woman? And the person will be like, I just don't think they had any at my school, you know? I'm sure.
And I love how they do the thinking thing. Like, you wouldn't know.
People, you don't need to know. If you ask someone, have you dated someone? You don't be like, have I? Hmm.
Let me think. Let me think about who was she? I'm like, you know the answer.
You know the answer. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes.
And I think there's like a level of honesty that people aren't able to have. But when it's now going to be in their personal life, they can't hide the thing anymore.
That's right. That's why people went really, do you guys remember this moment? I think it was around January 6th where there was a group of young women, probably just internet-based, but who admitted to using Hinge and the apps to sort of like catfish Republican men.
No, I didn't hear about that. Right.
So there was this thing they would go, OK, you know, you're never going to be with somebody hot like me again unless you change your politics. And so they would like pretend to be Republicans to out them to find out where they were on january 6th they'd make the romantic match right wait wait help me break this out so yes so these women went online yes okay and then and i think they're hot you got to have that part okay very very hot so these were hot women who went online and they created profiles yes and then they linked up with republican with Republican or conservative men.
Yes. Because they are apparently, according to the data, as you know, they are at a disadvantage on apps.
Conservative men, they all complain about it. Nobody wants to date them.
Okay. Then January 6th happens.
And I think this started as someone said they recognize a guy they thought they saw on one of the apps once in the videos. Oh, my goodness.
So the women start going on and going, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that guy.
I've seen that guy. And so they were catfishing them, pretending to be conservative or interested in conservative men.
And then the chat would go, yeah, so where were you last week? That is so interesting. And it like outed like three or four people, right? You know, I always say to my friends, I always say this.
I go guys I don't know like amongst us I'm like I don't know what our downfall will be but I know it'll be a woman I don't care who you are I don't care who you are like men yo our weakness is woman and it just you don't know when it comes you don't know how it's gonna happen it might be your business It might be your marriage It might be your sports career It might be your journalism I don't know what it is gonna be But Like That's why the Bible Was so prophetic See like Garden of Eden They were very clear about that Adam was never gonna eat that apple That man No no no Adam you know why You see my face Trevor Let me tell you why Let me tell you why I'll tell you why Because Adam You know why they wrote the? Because they knew. They're like, Adam was stupid and simple and he was just like, yo, man, I'm not.
And then what happened? Eve January 6th, Tim. She had a genuine question based on observational data.
She was like, why don't we eat the apple? And he's like, what? Because, yo, man, it's a prophetic story. That's an interesting reading.
You think a man could have tricked Eve into eating the apple? Do you think? Okay, let me ask you the question. I don't even want to go down.
No, no, no. I want to ask you a question.
Do you think a man, you think a man would have been able to shift Eve to eat the apple? I think he got her to eat the apple and he lied about it. And now we read the book.
Man, I'm not talking about blame. I'm asking you if you think.
I'm with the lying thesis. I like the lying thesis.
No, I'm going to say something sexist about women. Let's not do this.
I would say. I am admirable to male's basic nature of being lying, though.
I know a lot of women who are all about the male gaze. And if a man told them to eat an apple and God told them not to, they would do it.
Yes. But there's only one man in the garden.
I would think that Adam was too stupid to think through the logic of, hey, Apple could be good. Right? Like to get to that conclusion.
That's what I'm saying. I'm just saying.
Yeah. Now, I'm not sure that Eve convinced him so much.
She was like, yo, I'm going to try the Apple. And he's like, not without me, you ain't.
Because I do think there's a basic nature here that we're talking about. And so I think the not without me, you ain't kind of came up.
I'll agree with that. But I wanted to say something about this app experiment that the women did.
I don't think that would happen in 2025 because I'm noticing a lot of women getting conservative. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm seeing it all over my tiktok my instagram same i think we're on

similar are we think on the same algorithm i think so yeah yeah like the thing about skinniness how

we should dress all about being feminine being kind of conservative to conservatism i'm seeing

women who were like a few years ago i considered pretty progressive becoming more about like oh

I want only biological women and certain

what is that about

Tressie?

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I think I think I think I think I think about, Tressie? Oh, I think that's, we talk about economic anxiety. You guys are talking about that.
And I agree. I think we totally misdiagnosed like that whole economic anxiety argument.
And the case with women, I think is a perfect example of how we misdiagnosed it. Yes, people are anxious.
That doesn't mean that they should be anxious. What people are responding to is perceived loss, not real loss.
That's why you're like, what do you mean? They're rich. They're not economically anxious.
Yeah, they are. It's just not real.
It's made up. It's status anxiety.
We're calling it economic anxiety. So when you start saying status anxiety, though,

that's where I think

the gender piece

becomes really prevalent

because what I am seeing happen,

same,

women in my life

who were all

pussy-headed out

about...

They were throwing pussy-hats at me

and they were like,

we gotta go.

I had her on a pantsuit

for Hillary, right?

And today...

I'm with her.

I'm with her.

And today,

you know who they are with?

A dude in a fleece vest and khakis. It's like they look at, I think, they are looking accurately at a post-Roe reality.
A world where truly the United States government is the most powerful force in the world still. And it has declared war on women.
Go back home. We want you out of work.
We want you out of schools. Too much, too far, too fast.
And I think you look at that and you go, I'm hitching myself to the thing that provides some cover, right? And I think that performing conservatism, even if it's just in how you look, everybody's getting the haircuts now. The natural hair movement is...
The shift from the liberal haircut, by the way, to the conservative haircut. What is a conservative haircut? What's a liberal haircut? You know it when you see it.
You know it when you see it. Trevor, honestly, you will.
Yeah, you will know when you see it. Also, with black women, the natural hair movement, I think, is pretty much, like, done.
Folks are going back to the blowout and the relaxers. That's why they were mad when the science came out and said relaxers might be causing cancer.
Because the transition had started. And I think it's the same thing for Black women, by the way.
We have been at the forefront of, like, economic progress for women. That sort of generational forefront, right? Black women,

women writ large, outpacing men in education, going to college. We were almost at parity in the most

male fields, law and medicine, right? Is that for Black women? All women. All women.
Okay. Yeah,

Black women had already exceeded Black men, but white women were now coming forward. I mean,

we were almost at parity. And now you see this like hostile sort of response to women.
And I think you start going, if nothing else, let me look the part. And again, I'm not sure any of that's conscious.
I think as you look around and the aesthetics, for example, of the Trump administration are really clear. Yeah, blonde.
Blonde. As blonde as you can can get it and I think that you take that as a cue for this is what we do now if you want a little bit of safety okay so this is what I think about I don't think men are safe like no the way I was maybe and maybe it's just like the way I was raised was what I have your own money like what do you mean help me you mean like men are, men are dangerous, but that's just...
But they're not a safe backup plan. That's not a safe backup plan.
Oh, you mean they're not... A man is not a financial...
Okay, go, go, go. Your grandmother was like my grandmother.
Yeah, my mom was always like, we spent too much on your education for you to become a stay-at-home mother. And then my dad's like, don't, she's her choice.
But there's this argument. I'm like, my mom's like, we invested in these girls.
That's right. And part of that is a fear of what a man will do to you if he dies or if he leaves you.

So you always need to have your own means.

And my mom was like, even if you're just selling cakes and you're at home with your kids, have your little pocket money.

But now I'm seeing a lot of women, and my circle is a lot of women of color who are like, I want to be a stay-at-home girlfriend, stay-at-home wife.

I want a soft life. Can I just say about stay-at-home girlfriend? The oxymoron of that.
Pushes my buttons in a particular kind of way. Tell me more.
What is a girlfriend? A stay-at-home wife is only allowed to be a stay-at-home wife with the benefits of it, however marginal benefits are, because the state says he owes you the money. Yeah.
If you're a girlfriend, who's gonna make the sucker give you the money? But that's what I'm saying. People are like, I'll even settle to the playhouse.
I see these young girls, and I feel like I'm turning into an auntie, but I see these young girls, and I'm like, who raised you? Who raised the question? I never thought I would see the day when Tressie McMillan Cotton would be sitting in front of me saying get the bag get the bag marry him at least do you know what people's grandmas did for you to be able to get the bag do you know what she put up with for the bag to be procurable but it's become a a meme. There's a meme now like, oh, I wish we could go back and tell those women.
What were you thinking? Why would you fight for us to have the right to work? I hate work. But I see this in a different way as well in South Africa, for instance.
There are a lot of people now in South Africa who go, maybe apartheid wasn't that bad because at least then there was no unemployment. In aparid the electricity was fine and then i'll say this i wouldn't say it to women because i wasn't a woman and i wasn't even around then but still i go yeah but remember it is easy to think that the things worked well when the system was only designed to benefit a few because then it was working well for a few so in south africa yeah we had electricity because we only had to give it to five percent of the population yes the schools were good for five percent of the population yes there was no unemployment because people were essentially slaves so yeah if you want to go you're forgetting that things worked but you're not including who they worked for and how bad bad it was for everyone else.
That's exactly right.

I am curious about, and I think about this about myself and younger women that I'm around,

why hasn't there been more resistance?

People are surprised when they look at the votes,

how many women voted for Trump in spite of the Roe v. Wade thing,

or just the indifference.

You're not seeing women marching in the streets about many of the things happening.

It feels like we've just been like, I can't do it. What's that about? I think the reality of progress, and it is counterintuitive, but we see this with any kind of form of progress.
So the example I like to use is like the classic immigrant story in this country is the parents who immigrate to this country will always be foreign to their children who benefited from it. Right.
They will never truly understand each other. Right.
There are millions of books written about that very story. That's just the immigrant story.
Why? Because what it took to be desperate enough to leave your home country to go to the United States of America means you will never be able to fully appreciate or understand the benefits of it. So you do it for your children who will understand the benefits of it, but will never understand what it took to be desperate enough to migrate.
The conundrum of social progress is what you have is a generation of women who benefited from feminism but never experienced what made feminism necessary. Right? We think, and that's not to say that it is not true, but we think the sort of like interpersonal bias and violence we experience at work or school or whatever is as bad as it can be.
When really, as bad as it can be is being fundamentally, according to the state, an appendage of your husband. Not having a bank account.
That's right. That's actually as bad as it can be.
But for you, that's like this vague notion. It's very abstract.
Right. It's very abstract, right? And I think knowing and understanding what made you possible might be fundamentally impossible.
So, and not to, I don't want to throw elder women under the bus because I think we do that too much. Yeah.
Did they not articulate enough to us? Who wants to remember what brought you here? Like the amnesia, again, another part of the immigrant story is how many children of immigrants have said, my parents never talked about this. No.
They wouldn't even use our native language. Yeah.
I don't know any of the stories that brought me here. Food.
I didn't like it. It's just like, put it away.
We do the same thing. They survived it.
I've been working on this memoir for a couple years now, and I promise if my publisher's listening, I am almost finished. I swear to you.
I know it sounds like I'm doing a show and we're so close. And one of the things that comes up, like, and again, nothing unique about this, but like, I don't know anything as it turned out about my grandmother, who I thought I had known my whole life.
Like the things we don't talk about are huge. The things we don't talk about is probably more than the things we do talk about.
And so there's this ongoing generational amnesia when you have suffered in any kind of way. Like, I just don't think people want to sit around the dinner table and talk about the beating that finally broke them or the sexual violence that finally pushed them to leave a husband, right?

People just don't want to talk about that.

And so it becomes real easy for you not to inherit the violent part of the story.

And all you inherit is, yeah, but she ain't have to go out to no job.

Yeah, she would have loved to have gone out to a job.

She was begging to go out to a job.

Don't go anywhere because we got more what now after this you know when you talk about that i can't help but think about how it applies to many of the moments of progress that countries have made and society has made because everything you just said now

could completely be applicable to vaccines let's say oh yeah absolutely yeah because everyone who

is alive now with no polio no measles no anything you cannot appreciate a vaccine because you do not

live in a world where you are seeing the effects of not having the vaccine it's so funny because

on both my maternal and paternal line i think particularly about my paternal line my grandma

Thank you. you do not live in a world where you are seeing the effects of not having the vaccine.
Well, it's so funny because on both my maternal and paternal line, I think particularly about my paternal line, my grandmother had a set of kids before my dad and his two brothers. And they kind of always existed in the family imagination.
And then when I grew up, I realized that they were pretty older when they died. They were like three and seven.
They died in infanthood and early childhood. and from like things that a kid never dies from now and when I think especially my paternal grandmother she never got over that grief and so I think we we live in the shadow of a lot of grief in my family like the grief of that particular event those particular events and so I said I said look when I hear about anti-vax stuff, I get personally triggered because being the child of two Nigerian immigrants, I'm actually not that far away from a world where there are women who would, your child gets an MLR vaccine, you say, thank you, Jesus.
Because you know what it means. Do you know what I mean? So that thing about the distance and vaccines, I think there's some populations who are a bit closer.
But for your average person in the West, they don't know somebody that's tired of measles or even meningitis. Some people take the meningitis vaccine for granted now, but I remember when it was a death sentence.
Yeah, but I think about this in all aspects of life. The FAA is a great example.
Because America has had such an impeccable track record flying yeah people now take for granted the apparatus that has gone into making sure that america has such an impeccable record while flying people you don't understand how many planes are flying around all the time landing taking off it i mean these are like All the science of it is amazing. And then people go, we need to gut the FAA.
We need to, and you go, no. You say that because you don't understand that you're experiencing its benefits.
That's right. If you've only been in the time of something existing, it is hard for you to imagine a time before it existed and how much better life has gotten.
And so then you don't think that it's meaningful anymore. That's right.
We talk about like the shadow state, which I find, I have found that the way the GOP, you know, headed by Trump, but not just Trump in this instance, talk about, you know, the deep state, you know, the scary deep state, deep state coming for you. And, you know know, sociologists have this thing like the shadow state, which is our government functions so well for such a complex, large population.
And most of that is invisible to the average American. Poor people see it because they got to go to court.
Yes. Okay.
Yes. But everybody else, water just shows up.
Trash just rolls out. So what we are talking about here is like a sort of like politics, a disease of like privilege, right? That the state works so well.
Yes. It's been so stable, which in the like global scheme of things really is phenomenal.
Yep. works so well for a diverse far-flung population that a huge cross-section of people who don't have a ton in common any other way can be convinced that the state is unnecessary.
And that in fact, the only way this is working is that there's a secret deep state, right? But no, what they mean by the deep state is the functioning government.

Your checks arrive on time, right?

And so what they think the government is is that customer service number they call, where admittedly you might get a sister who don't want to talk to you that day.

Admittedly.

But what they do not see is like that you are just like a small handful of exceptions that didn't fit into the bureaucratic majority that time. Your stuff got lost, but the vast majority of people's did not.
Most people's stuff at the DMV actually goes smoothly, believe it or not. We love to hate on the DMV.
I wrote a piece defending the DMV once, and the number of people who wrote me letters to tell me their personal stories. Sorry, I was one of them.
I figured, I thought one sounded like you. They're just like, you say the DMV is good.
I was like, no, I'm saying if you have a problem at the DMV, you're like 0.01%. Yes.
Yeah. But you take for granted that the whole population is there.
Yes. So the 0.01% is huge.
Exactly. That's what people don't get.
They don't get this about airports. They don't get this about the government.
They don't get this about medicine. They don't get this about everything.
It's almost impossible to understand what you have if you weren't around for when you didn't have it. And so like, I'll try and say this to my youngest siblings with like phones and technology and all that stuff.
I remember saying to my brother once, I said, you know what's crazy life you've never waited and he said what do you mean i said your generation does not know the concept of waiting for something and he's like what do you mean said i wait all the time i said no you don't wait i said i used to stand in a line at any number of places that sound like a hundred years ago it really does i said i used in line at a post office that's right and all I could do my only entertainment was to look at the back of the head of the person in front of me that was it there was no what's happening in the news there was no music there was no video game there was no sending messages no I stood there and I looked at the back of their head for anything from 10 to 50 minutes and that was it I would sit and wait for a bus to show up I didn't know where it was I didn't know when it was I just stood there and I would judge generally by how many people were with me whether or not I had made the right choice in timing if there was no one I'd be like maybe I'm ahead of them or maybe they've left me yeah and if there's a bunch okay now we're not the problem the bus is the problem but i was trying to explain this to him and i said to him and by the way he wasn't even being a brat we were just discussing it as like a fun thing and i was like man it's amazing how you can't you can't even appreciate that you don't wait because you've always never waited you know you know why things are not happening or happening.

You know where your friend is.

Do you remember just waiting for your friend somewhere?

This was the thing I was thinking about.

And I know this is a generational thing.

And again, I really don't want to turn into an auntie.

But, you know, destiny.

When I say to somebody, you know, it used to be a thing that I'm going to meet you somewhere at 2 o'clock.

I would just see you at 2 o'clock.

Yes. Yeah.

Now, you have to share your location. Yeah.
They want to know when you've left the house. They want to know when I've gotten in the car.
They want to know how far away I am, where I'm going to park. Like there's all of this constant interaction, mostly because the idea to your point of waiting is like counterintuitive to everything.
I'm like, I'm just going to see you at two. Like I'll there.
I'll get there. We'll see each other at two and it'll be fine.
But I found that the level of anxiety that younger people have about not knowing your precise movement and location. I can't imagine.
And again, don't want to be one of these people. But I cannot imagine that our brains have developed fast enough for that to be okay with us.
Yeah, it's just not. An 11-year-old asked me recently, what age was I when I got my first phone, my smartphone? And I said, what do you mean, honey, how young? The smartphone wasn't invented until I was like 25.
What are you saying? She was like, I bet you got yours when you were 13. And I was like, at 13, I think we had just gotten call waiting.
That's hilarious. And we ran it into the ground.
That is hilarious. Right? And yet, she can't fathom the idea, because that was her point, by the way.
She was like, I don't have anything to do when we're in the car because I don't have a smartphone. I was like, you look out the window.
I looked out the window for 20 years. But the concept, and I just don't think the brains are prepared.
And I do think that a lot of what we see at sort of a societal scale is that chronic anxiety. Yeah.
Everything should happen. I should be able to predict everything.
The total fear of risk. Missing the bus.
No big deal. You missed it.
You waited for the next one. Now it would be considered like some major.
I've seen people risk limbs being chopped off, amputated by the train. Yeah.
Because they don't want to miss it as if another one will not be coming in five minutes. Yeah.
And the time they're saving is so that they can get home and scroll on TikTok. It's not like when they get home they've got five more minutes to solve some crazy equation that'll solve the universe.
No. They're rushing just five minutes faster to get somewhere where they're going to then waste that time doing a thing.
And the reason I say waste is because it's not like what they want to be doing. But as we wrap, Tressie, I want to know from you if like as a sociologist, as someone who's looked at societies and nations and the way things work, do you think that means the unfortunate ultimate conclusion is for, let's say, America and many parts of the world as we're seeing now, is the unfortunate conclusion that people will only appreciate it when it now breaks down for their generation.
So will Americans only appreciate democracy when Trump has completely obliterated it? Will people only appreciate free speech when it's been ripped away? Will women appreciate the advances that were made by other women when they no longer have it? I am so sorry to say this. I am so sorry you asked me this question because I have an answer.
I've thought about it so much, and it is not a good or fun answer. But yes, I don't want to be dystopian.
I actually don't think it'll be like, you know, I don't think it'll be the type of revolution that maybe some of us imagine and hope for. And I don't think it is like a complete, you know, reversal of rights.
But I do think it will take the firsthand experience of the loss of a functioning bureaucratic state, of the type of security. I don't think we understand how much like emotional security we get from knowing the government works.
From not having to worry about whether water's coming, for not having to worry about whether when you call 911, is somebody coming? And can I say something? Yeah. For some reason, every American city I've lived in, I've been there at a crucial, catastrophic event.
So I was in New York during COVID. I was in Austin, Texas when the first snowstorm happened that collapsed a grid.
So we had no power and had this one-year-old child and it was freezing and no help came. Right? People even died.
You know, there was people that used their fireplaces and then I also was in LA during the fires. Oh, we should maybe quarantine you.
Oh, I'm the problem. That's my takeaway here.
No, no, I'm the problem. It's me.
But like LA during the fires. Oh, we should maybe quarantine you.
Oh, I'm the problem. No, I'm the problem.
It's me. But like LA during the fires and it's like you're using this app actually, which is telling you where all the fires are and how contained they are, etc, etc.
And that's when you kind of realize they are like, oh, this is teetering on the edge, especially in Texas. Yes.
When it was like, oh oh this is a grid that's not connected to any other grid this is a state with no income tax only has property taxes so it's not like there's like voluminous income to like help people it was a republican utopia yeah and you're like i think that's already what happened in north carolina this stuff is already happening we're having these events that are showing you if amer America gets into like a real disaster. That's right.
It's going to fall apart very quickly. And like the L.A.
fires was the moment I was like, oh, there wasn't enough water. But this guy could get a private fire service to protect his malls.
Yeah, that's right. That's right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And people can see it firsthand.
The American sickness, though, is that they would look at that story and go, the solution isn't more taxes. The solution for me is I need to become that rich guy.
Yeah, I want to be rich. That's the American disease that we look at that and what we diagnose again back to like the wrong diagnosis.
It was like, oh, if I want the state to work for me, I just better become rich. Now, everybody cannot, of course, be rich, which is why we created governments.

But what we don't understand, I think Texas is a great example of this. Texas is like, again, one of these, you know, utopian political realities for people who believe in like the core tenets of the GOP's political platform.
But it only works because everybody around them is not a Republican utopia. You need the government to be somewhere.
And so you can only be a state like Florida. You can only be a state like Texas that says, we don't use the federal government.
See us, you know, big F you to the federal government. Well, yeah, you know that because all of the rest of us, however, fund it and keep it going and you draw from it and you still need it, right? People learn that during COVID.
We saw it firsthand. The thing about this country is our need for ongoing amnesia about how vulnerable we are keeps us from doing the right diagnosis.
Yeah, you look at that and go, the rich guy able to get private firefighters and you go, okay. And I guarantee

he's going to be mayor. I think he's going to run

again for mayor and people are like,

oh, he needs to be our mayor because look,

he kept his moves. He solved the problem.

He's going to say to you,

you see I was able to do this? I'll do this for all of you.

And that's how Trump won, by the way.

That is exactly right. Trump won by saying,

look at what I've done with my life. I will do this for your life.
And then we go back there. Well, all right.
Thanks, y'all. That really was great.
That gave me a lot to think about. Thank you.
What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions.

The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avigan.

Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Claire Slaughter is our producer.

Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown.