Harris-Trump Debate Debrief with Tressie McMillan Cottom

You know when they talk about the debate prep, they'll say like, oh, they prepared and they prepared Donald Trump. I always wonder what the prep actually entails.
And Kamala Harris was so on point with her reactions. I wonder if they brought in a meme expert and they were like, all right, all right, Madam Vice President.
So we need you to make as many memeable faces as possible. We need you to give.
She gave, she had the perfect meme gif face.

Kamala Harris.

What's up?

Good to be.

She's fun.

Fun.

Fun.

This is What Now?

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Oh, man. I love saying the most random thing to see how you'll react.
Happy podcast day, everybody. How are you doing? How's everybody doing? What's up, Christiana? What's up, Josh?

Happy podcast day.

Happy podcast day.

I was expecting you to say happy podcast day.

I know, I know.

I knew that you were doing that.

And then I was like, what could I say to throw you off?

I was trying to be that preacher who comes out and just says the most random thing ever.

Like, I'm never buying that again.

And then the congregation just looks at them like, wait, wait, buying what?

The Lord be with you. And also with you wait what happened? What happened? Yeah I mean what happened is a good question Yes what happened indeed These are the episodes I sort of love the most Because we are all in the most Different places possible So I'm in the Netherlands Where I watched the debate Between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris At 3 o'clock in the netherlands where i watched the debate between donald trump and kamala harris at three o'clock in the morning christiana watched it in california the freest state in america and then josh johnson i'm assuming you watched in new york like was like a fight night in new york or was it just a regular watch the debate no it was like a fight night because there were moments where, okay, I've watched lots of boxing and everything.
And whenever you pass a bar where the boxing is happening, there have been a few times in my life where I've seen a fight where somebody got knocked out, but they didn't move right away and it get quiet. And that's exactly what it looked like at moments where I would pass a bar you hear the debate blaring and people just quiet like like you you would think that trump hit his head in front of everybody and was bleeding out his ear because the way that he would be talking and everyone it wasn't even like no one was even giggling it was like this is weird that's what i felt like i don't want to tip the plot here But it felt very Oh I don't think There's a plot to tip I feel like this This conversation Is one of those where If you are tuning in To this episode You know We're recording this episode Like a day After the debate You're going to listen to it Two days after the debate But I think everyone saw it You know There were a few questions I had for this That I that that i know you're gonna have great answers for and our guest who's you know like a superstar guest joining us tressie mcmillian cotton she'll always bring a different perspective to any conversation so i'm really excited to have her back on because i know she's a fan favorite um but yeah i don't i don't think there's tipping anything here it's just like like okay maybe maybe the the one thing

I found myself asking was like how much crazier can Trump actually get is that what you're asking that's interesting no really yeah yeah really I was like because I I maybe I'm not used to him or maybe I don't watch his stuff as much as I used to I don't know But is it just me or does he seem like he's a little deeper in than he was?

Yeah, he's somehow both an old man and Cronkley online.

Yeah.

You don't see the two mix often.

Yeah.

And you know what it was for me?

It was because I kept thinking back to the Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump debates.

And for reasons that we can't get into, she came across as a bit robotic. Like a real politician.
You know if you're a politician for too long, you get kind of like very scientific about it. So her next to Trump, she kind of looked like the weirdo even though he was saying crazy shit.
Do you know what I mean? Because he would say the crazy shit and she wouldn't react. Whereas, because Harris has all these facial reactions.
Oh, that's interesting. And she's responded to him like when he did the cats and dogs stuff.
She was like looking around like, is he for real? Oh, that's interesting. Because she was so like human and seemed less seasoned next to him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He seemed even crazier.
There were moments when I was like, is she going to slap him? No, she's not going to slap him. She's going to say the right thing.
But it was just like, she was us. You know, because she was reacting to him how you would when you hear like a crazy man in a bar.
Like, what are you saying? Yeah, I'll pitch you this real quick. She looked at Trump the way Trump looked at Biden in the last debate.
Like, like, when I tell you, because remember that moment? Yeah, I remember that moment. He said, you know what it was? It was the line.
It was the line when Biden went, he went, he started in one place and ended in a completely different zip code. And then Trump said, if I remember correctly, he was like, I don't know what he said.
I don't think he knows what he said. Yes, yes, yes.
He was so honest in that moment. He was like, he's like, I don't, I don't know what he just said.
And to be honest, he was yes he was like he was so honest in that moment he was like he's like i don't i don't know what he just said and to be honest he was almost like should you not throw the towel in what is happening right now and you're right kamala harris looked at him the same way because there was one moment where i don't know if she was concerned about being president or anything i think she was like y'all this is elder abuse if we just let if we don't address because i know y'all yall muted my mic, so I can't say anything, but somebody get him. The concern.
There were generating moments of concern. Tresti, it is so good having you back with us.
Thank you for joining us. For what I hope will be the antitheses and the antidote to everything else we spoke about and experienced.
So let me start by asking you this. Has your, not your worldview, but has your opinion on where the race stands or where America stands changed after watching Donald Trump debate Kamala Harris? Okay, maybe.
Yes. Oh, I like this.
I'll take maybe from you any day. I know because I'm cautious.

You know how cautious I am about this.

I'm always scared to be hopeful about Americans.

We're interesting.

We're interesting people.

And so it's scary for me.

I don't have hope about Americans.

It is.

You know, I think that I feel a little bit more confident. One, I feel very confident about the Harris machine, which feels good.
We talked a little bit about this, that her team around her seems to have changed. I went into this debate wanting to see not just that they had prepared her, but that she understood where the electorate was and that she had a message for that.
All right. And that they weren't still going to be beta testing messages that they had, you know, that the internal polling was consistent.
They understood what she needed to do and that she was ready to do it. And I wanted her to show people she could win.
Listen, I keep saying all people want at this point, the people who are likely to vote, like there's a huge swath of people out there aren't paying attention, don't care, whatever. But the people who can be moved to vote, who might vote for Kamala Harris, wanted to see some of what they saw in that debate.
They want someone who isn't afraid of Donald Trump, big time. And they want someone who makes him look as crazy as they feel he is.
right There's this disconnect right now where he clearly is crazy to people who are paying attention. But if you go out there, you know, in the rest of the world and you brush up against other people who don't seem terrified of him, you can start to question if you're losing your mind.
And so seeing her react to him as if he doesn't make sense, seeing her draw out the ways that doesn't make sense i just think that feels good to americans like okay i'm not only am i not crazy someone who seems capable sees it too and they are willing to go toe-to-toe with him when it matters right right well here's the main things i wanted to chat about uh you know one what do we think Kamala Harris did right? And why did it feel like it was more right than anyone who has debated Donald Trump before? And then obviously, we have to talk about Donald Trump. And you heard my question to Josh and Christiana.
I don't know if I'm the only one, but I feel like he's gone deeper into his own rabbit hole um i also wanted to talk about the debate as a format and as a concept and and then you know at the end of it all just talking about like where we see america going from this but but let's stick with let's let's stick with kamala like i don't know about i don't know about everybody else i do not remember a single time when especially donald trump was involved in a debate and even conservatives even maga people were saying oh no this man got his ass handed to him and and and and here's here's a they're not saying it like he lost they're saying it like oh we heard that kamala got the questions yeah before the debate how how did she have her answers ready which by the way showed me how little people now expect from their politicians that people were shocked people were shocked that kamala harris could possibly do enough homework to know what they would possibly ask her before, which is what you're supposed to know. It's the issues.
And then there's a conspiracy theory going around. And if you've seen this, where they're saying her earrings are actually secret listening devices and people were broadcasting.
Someone was talking to her in her ear while she was speaking, which I'm going to tell you, as somebody who does live TV, if that's the case, that's another reason that she should be president. Because if you can deliver a message while people are speaking into your ear at the same time, you're like the ultimate, like you're the emperor of multitasking.
So they said that, they said she cheated. They said a whole bunch of things.

But the underlying thought, even in Maga Land, was, yeah, our dude lost, which I've never seen them say before.

I got in a lot of trouble, which is going to surprise you, I know.

I got in a lot of trouble a couple of days before the debate because I said I felt the start, not the pinnacle, the start of the Trump bubble losing air.

Thank you. Because I said I felt the start, not the pinnacle, the start of the Trump bubble losing air.
I thought that even conservative media were open to considering that he was not Teflon Don, right? That he had some vulnerabilities. And nothing about what I saw during the debate changed my mind again he's not dead in the water he's still polling competitively i get all of that i just mean he does not seem as undeniable as he once seemed and i think that and i'm not getting that from liberal progressive voters who have long hoped for that to be true i was getting that from my read of conservative commentators, both in traditional media and online and social media, where, you know, the joke, he stopped being the comedian and he is starting to become the punchline, which I realize who I just said that to.
But listen, right? Yeah, get him, get him. Just thought about what I said.
But yeah, he's shifting from being the person who is controlling the circus um to becoming the punchline for him to now be the punchline really does make him look diminished in a way yeah so do you think some do you think that was something that kamala harris was you is uniquely positioned to take advantage of because's no denying, like if we talk about Hillary, and let's even forget Hillary for a moment. Look at every Republican that Donald Trump beat in his own debates to get where he got to.
Like, is there something that makes you uniquely positioned to beat Trump in a debate if you are a black person and you've lived with black people in any way shape or form do you know what i mean like black people aren't as shook by trump as white people are let's just put it out there yeah yeah because because we've also been roasted before like in life you know what i mean like thank you josh there there are things that would be tantamount to bullying that have come from family. You know what I mean? And then you send a person out in the world that has none of those experiences and they're like, wait, is he allowed to talk to me like this? Yeah, absolutely.
It's funny. Immediately after the debate, I watched Fox.
I wanted to see what Hannity and his friends were saying. And he had J.D.
Vance on. And then he also had Rubio and Cruz.
They were the surrogates that were out for Trump. And something I noticed is that they kept speaking about points that she had rebutted in the debate.
So they were like, she's going to ban fracking in Pennsylvania, and she's going to defund the police. And to me, these sound like things that Republicans were afraid about four years ago.

Like, I can't even remember the last time I met an abolitionist who said defund the police.

Like, it's such an old slope.

Like, the conversation isn't even there yet. And then I was like, the issue is they don't know how to attack her.

Yeah, it's insane.

Because to her credit, when we were accusing her of being the vice president who did nothing the great thing is like you can pin nothing to her okay so they were like um we can't say the black thing because that's not polling well let's not talk about her being mixed race because our white dudes at home with asian and black wives are getting pissed off right so they're like okay we're not gonna do that she done? We don't know what she's done. Okay, defund the police and fracking.
And what was hard about that is that that woman just went up there and was like, I have a gun and I'm pro-Israel. So it's like, it doesn't...
It didn't line up with reality. Like when she said she had a gun, I was very shocked.
I was like, well, this is a scary woman. And I say that as a Brit.
Yeah, but you also say that as someone who does want a gun. I know.
Listen, a woman that does get a gun has my full respect. Because she actually acted out on the impulse.
And she has a gun. She has a gun.
She was like, me and Tim are gun owners. And there were like these sharp turns in it where I was like, oh, their big problem is that she's probably more of a conservative than Trump is at her core.
Right? There you go. Oh, that's an interesting one.
Wait, wait, wait. I was like, this is a Republican light.
She'd never be with them because the parties aren't as good and they're not as good looking. Oh, this is an interesting take.
This is not a real Democrat. Like the more she, and i think it was like the israel palestinian was an amazing moment yeah yes with the way she described that she didn't describe that in particularly progressive terms and it would be actually quite hawkish by even democrat standards so when she spoke about that when she caught about gun ownership when she celebrated being a prosecutor like she wasn't hiding mine she was like yeah i lock people up and you're like i'm sorry what then i was like trump that's your problem you're actually running against another conservative and what and she's black and indian what do you do with that i wouldn't know what to do personally i mean all you can do is bring up old talking points like call her a jive turkey all right I think Christiana is onto something here.

Not only did she give these hawkish responses, they were her best answers. They were her best answers.
Her response to Ukraine, her response to the Israel-Palestine question, if you are agnostic on what she actually said, I mean, they were the ones where she was the most eloquent. She was the most emotive, really.
Like I expected her to be emotive on the abortion question and she reaches for that a bit, but it doesn't feel nearly as natural as when she says, I own a gun and I arrest people. Like that's who she is.
And I think that's who she feels like she is in the world. And when you say that next to someone who has only been pretending to be a cowboy.
Donald Trump doesn't own a gun. Trump is afraid of guns.
I don't know if you've ever seen Donald Trump talk about guns. He's terrified.
He's afraid of guns. Yeah, he's terrified.
He talks about his sons hunting. And he talks about them as if he has sent anonymous tips to the police about his own sons.
That's how Trump talks about his sons. He'd be like, my sons, they do a lot of hunting, a lot of hunting, and they know everything about guns.
Sometimes it worries me. It worries me a little bit.
They got a lot of guns, a lot of guns. I don't know about that.
And you see that even he's going like, what are you guys doing? We're billionaires and you're running around with guns. But that, so that's an interesting point.
You, you're basically saying, the both of you are saying that one of the things Kamala Harris might have done right in this debate was sort of outflank Trump in his own backyard. Yeah.
I think where she happens to have policy that is both fitting to like republicans and is like weirdly democratic in a way and exploiting that i think is the best move you can do because this this is the thing that is like undeniably cool in a way that that is is gonna sound weird but when kamala harris says i have a gun and i'm a prosecutor, I don't care what you think, I'll shoot you and lock you up. That already is like so wild that you're like, yo, I'm kind of on board.
Even as someone who doesn't have a gun and is someone who doesn't love the justice system, I'm still like, damn, she going shoot you and lock you up. You gonna get got, right? And I think, I think there's the other thing that, that what I like about what she's doing and what she did in that debate, I think is very smart.
That is something that I hope more Democrats do when, when the time comes in their own races is that there are things that optically Democrats, especially liberals don't't like. Right.
Like don't like the police, don't like justice, stuff like that. Right.
But my thing, and I've been saying this for a while, I've been saying this ever since she basically became the nominee. I was like, y'all, I know you don't like the police, but you don't like the way that beat cops treat people.
You like the police because when Donald Trump got indicted, when he got charged, when he got found guilty on 34 counts, didn't y'all celebrate how you do that without a justice system? Who can do that but a prosecutor? So it's like you do like it sometimes. It's just that powerful, evil people get held accountable so rarely that we don't get to celebrate the way that other people do who who like when poor people get beat up if that makes sense that makes that makes complete sense and and i i mean yeah this is i i i felt that but i i won't lie you've given me and i think you've given everyone listening a new way to think about it and that is the thing the secret weapon that kamala harris had over donald trump was that she may be more conservative than he is in real life yes yeah you know what i mean like like trump is like trump is a a red in the streets but a blue in the sheets you know baby mamas he's basically a rapper he's a trap rapper yeah beyond gold toilets him and young Thug have the same They really have the same He's a trap rapper, yeah.
Beyond gold toilets. Him and Young Thug have the same...
Gold toilets. Him and Young Thug have the same...
They do. He's just...
In the same district. In terms of how he actually lives, right? Whereas, like, Harris is...
Her life is quite conservative. Like, no child...
Like, the things you stereotypically associate with a woman of color of her age, she has none of that. And what was interesting to me was watch her pull the democratic party i felt felt to the right i don't think it i think it's already a centrist party but she pulled it more to the right even on things like immigration and i was like oh she clearly doesn't care to really pander to the left like i think that they have for the last few years especially on issues of identity police reform etc etc there was no talk of that instead it was kind of like this rainbow nation where we give you a chance to have a down payment on a house and you work hard and you get your health care that was the message which is like conservatism do you know what I mean if you work hard and you behave well we'll help you out right it's like conservatism like and it was interesting for me to watch because i'm like she clearly doesn't believe there are votes to be accumulated on the left at all i think she's made the calculation that these people are never gonna like me because i will shoot you and prosecute you and i can't there's no way i can change that record However there are independents That I can collect Or people that went from Obama one year To Trump the other Who came back to Biden Who may consider Harris If she plays that cards right Well before we get into Trump Let's do this Let's take a quick break And when we come back Let's talk about thejt ratings machine and how he is still able to leave everybody shocked watching his screen going what the this episode is brought to you by ultra running ultra makes performance running shoes that are insanely comfortable with a roomy toe box and zero to low drop.
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Always pay careful attention to the road and do not drive while distracted. Okay, so Kamala Harris comes into the debate.
She shocks everybody because she says everything that they thought maybe like a Trump would say on stage. But even if you take away Kamala Harris's performance, Donald Trump for me felt the way Joe Biden felt for Democrats when they were watching him debate Joe Biden.
Do you know what I mean? It was that same feeling. Like I put myself in the shoes of a MAGA supporter and I was like, I would not want to be watching my guy experiencing this right now.
You know, he seemed like he had it in the beginning and then it was just, oh man. He looked 78.
Yes, he did. Yes, he did.
He looked 78. And you know what? You cannot, as a 78-year-old man, when you've been refuted, say, I saw it on the television.
At least say TV, sir. You got to say TV.
Don't television sound like you in the past right now. Television is too long of a word for as dumb a thing as you just said you have to say tv let me let me ask you this do you do you think and and you know this reminds me you know uh josh of of our experience with fights so tressie like josh loves fighting like ufc boxing you name it if people are getting punched josh johnson's there and um and one one of the times you will see josh's eyes light up the most is when there's a fight that's lined up where the person who was supposed to fight can no longer fight and so somebody new has jumped in at the last minute because they still have to have a fight because it brings with it like a wild card nature like josh you'd see josh get so excited.
He'd be like, ooh, you're going to want to watch this one. He'd be like, mm-mm.
The other guy, he doesn't know anything about him because the other guy was a striker. And this guy, he's going to choke you.
And you don't know what he's going to do with submissions. And nobody knows how this is going to turn out because he came out of nowhere.
It feels like that here. It feels like he hasn't had any time to reconcile with the idea of going up against a black woman who was a prosecutor who is indian and is everything that he doesn't know how to speak to or engage with from the moment he shook her hand, this man looked extremely uncomfortable.
Like he looked like he had never shaken a black woman's hand. I think Donald Trump identifies as someone who is good looking.
I believe he looks at... I'm so glad this is not a visual medium right now.
Please repeat that sentence. Please repeat that sentence.
Please repeat that. If you look at the history, he was the New York blonde-haired, blue-eyed playboy with a lot of money.
He was. This is the most eligible.
If you look at old articles about Donald Trump. Eligible bachelor.
Oh, yeah. Which it girl is going to date him.
Mega women still love him. Yes, they do.
For a long time, women were like, this is a gorgeous guy. He's got money.
He's got BDE, et cetera, et cetera. I think he's still, even though he's 78 years old, he still identifies primarily as somebody who is attractive.
And he looks at Kamala Harris and he's like, she's attractive too. We're the same type of person.
With Hillary, he's like, never. With Biden, he's like, no, not as good looking as I am.
With Kamala, he's like, fourth wife, perhaps. You know, it's just like.
I was going to say she is the type of black woman or the type of woman of color that if he had any exposure to them at all, which, again, he does not, he would have given a pass. Absolutely.
And she doesn't want his pass. I get where you're going.
So I think there's this tension of like, we're the same type of people, because I'm telling you, this guy is not as like the political animal people make him out. He's like, are you rich or are you hot? Right.
That's just, that's just, okay. And so you're having an attack.
No, I'm so sorry. And this is not, this is not to diminish all the other brilliant qualities that Kamala Harris has, but he primarily looks across and he sees this attractive woman insulting him.
And the moment she said that people walk out of your rallies. Yeah.
It was done. Yeah.
He was so hurt. He wasn't angry.
He was like, how dare, we're the same. You're supposed to like me.
How dare you? And the thing and the other thing about saying how many million people fired him. And I think it's just beyond all of her identity stuff.
I think like on a really primordial level, he's like, this is a good looking woman who is not wowed by me. What do I do? And he can never overcome that.
And that's why he hasn't come up with a good nickname for her. Oh, because he likes her.
her that's why he was like did you see the time magazine cover they made her look so beautiful she looked like melania it was like what and i'm like this this is the land i don't know i just think there's some i could be wrong but i think there's something to that i like this this is provocative i think you're right i love provocative I'm going to double down on it and say Kamala Harris, one of her attributes is she's been beautiful her whole life. She knows how to handle someone like a Donald Trump in politics and in business, a man who expects her to engage with him in a certain way and to leverage that to her benefit.
She didn't wake up fine yesterday. She's been fine like literally the whole life.
And in fact, from both the left and the right during her political career, lots of men have gotten in trouble for commenting on, oh, Kamala, she beautiful. That was Barack, by the way, a few years back.
That's right. Off the record says something about how she's the best looking attorney general that we've got.

I mean, this has been part of her story to power, which it would be for any beautiful woman.

But yeah, I can imagine it complicates it when she is a beautiful woman who is not supposed to be a beautiful woman to someone like Donald Trump.

And stares him down in a way that he probably finds a bit attractive.

But he's also like, you're trying to take my job. I don't want to go to prison You're going fraudy in here I could be wrong You took us into like Fan fiction Like no I mean And I mean It's the politics of beauty And I it is politics of beauty yes and i think that that is no but here's the thing but here's the thing here's the thing and i'm not saying i'm not saying this is i'm not saying this is crazy at all i'm just saying it has taken us down a hole of something that is because here's here's the thing were it not donald trump i would be like this is a very funny theory ha ha ha great thanks for entertaining us but there are a few things that could explain why he acted the way he did other than what you just said so for instance did you see him at the 9-11 memorial he did something that he almost never does he was standing next to mike bloomberg former new york city mayor and joe biden is standing next to him and kamala harris is standing next to him and trump says to mike bloomberg and or to somebody else he says he like just you can see it he basically goes sort of like call kamala like he he like gestures towards her and he makes the first like move to greet her.
And somebody taps her and says, Donald Trump is trying to. And then she turns and she's like, oh, hey, how you doing? And she like comes over and she shakes his hand.
And he like lingers and he holds her hand and he tries to pull her in a little bit. And she's got a grip like she was trained by every uncle in the hood who told them what to do when a man holds your hand.

And she holds him firm.

She doesn't let.

But I have not seen Donald Trump on many occasions be the person who initiates a greeting or a contact or be the person who lingers after that contact has been made.

And now the idea that Donald Trump was on stage with a crush is one of my favorite theories I never thought I would walk away from after a debate. Josh, your mind right now.
I'm telling you. Okay.
No, no. Because this thing that Christian has done now, I'm thinking Trump just trying to win so that he can have a peaceful transfer of power so he can hopefully be alone with Kabbalah for a second.
Just to be in the White House in a room with Kabbalah

and then be like,

and then be like, hey,

I'm sick of this. Everyone's

asking, will they or won't they?

Okay, for the record.

John said that.

Ebony and

Ivory together

in perfect harmony.

This is the moment when I pull my microphone.

To Christiana's point, for real,

as someone who has had their feelings

Thank you. Ivory.
Together in perfect harmony. This is the moment when I pull my microphone.
To Christiana's point, for real, as someone who has had their feelings hurt by many beautiful women, it's a hard thing to come back from in real time. Like, if you get roasted and you're like, guys, wait, you're supposed to be in it with me.
Because remember, okay, this is a good example. because Trevor, you point this out years ago.
Do you remember whenever they got caught on that hot mic? It was it was Trudeau and it was Boris, I think, making fun of Trump. And then he heard it.
And Macron as well. He was a French.
Yeah. And Macron was very hurt.
And you could tell he was hurt for real because he was like personally hurt. He didn't even get nasty.
That's how hurt he was. He didn't even get like, well, you know, Macron's like short and Boris is fat.
He didn't do any that. He was like, oh, yeah, you know, I guess politics can be fake sometimes.
like it was it was almost sad to see and i think that to christ's point, that hurt thing is like you have to get your get back in a way that's like, I need the other person to give me something now, which is why I have to keep engaging with them. Does that make sense what I'm saying? Because people have said horrific stuff against him in the debates when they were other Republicans and he just didn't care.
Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like they would say stuff about him in general.
Yeah, but that is the thing about Trump is from everything I've seen of him, he does not care about those he does not care about. And I know that sounds like a simple statement, but he just does not care.
Including his own family. If a magazine writes about Trump, yeah.
If a magazine writes about Trump and Trump never read that magazine, it may as well not have been written. family if a magazine writes about trump yeah if a magazine writes about trump and trump never read that magazine it may as well not have been written but if a magazine that was at the pinnacle of its you know publishing you know successful empire was comes out with something and trump you know like if he lived through the pinnacle of that magazine or that tv show or that idea that is his life you know josh and i think yeah i don't know i here's here's another thing i i honestly found myself asking myself about is trump getting crazier or was this the first time we saw somebody standing next to him who fully was able to display how far he's gone which which one was it oh you know yeah i don't think he's getting crazier if i'm if i'm being honest i think that to complete your analogy of what you said about me trevor when it comes to a fighter stepping in on short notice there's a young woman from brazil named natalia silva who's very talented and she is undefeated right now but in her debut in her UFC debut she took a short notice just to get in right yeah she showed up kicking and the other girl doesn't know anything about her so she doesn't know she kicks so she getting kicked and she's like this this hurts this crazy right and I think that I think that the kicks for Kamala were reacting to him like you said trevor the way that we react to him because no one has done that before he's been on stage with republicans and he's been on stage with democrats who tried to like keep it politics and this was the first person who was like what did you just say like like there was a point where it seemed like she she she paused she paused as if she was allowing every single one of us at home to throw in the word that she was not saying she she paused at some point and she went to know that this beep former president and she paused for so long that you could do this bitch, this mother.
She paused with so much intention.

But I don't know.

Okay, let's talk about the cats, the Haitian cats thing.

The cats and dogs story.

This is what I find myself asking.

I go, do you think Donald Trump actually believes that?

Or do you think Donald Trump believes that people believe it? Or do you think he's only using it as a political tool? Because I don't know when I'm watching that clip. I've watched it again and again and again.
I see what looks like belief in his eyes, but I can't tell if he just believes that people are saying it or if he actually believes that these Haitian immigrants are eating people's pets? I don't think he believes it with

passion. I think that he believes it.
I think he believes it, like you said, that people are saying it. And as a political tool, I don't think that he saw that news and that rumor, which is just a Facebook rumor, and that he was like, oh, y'all, we have to take action.
This is crazy. crazy yeah i think that he had once again the 78 year old old man reaction of like i'm never gonna be over there but i believe what you're saying about what's happening over there jen sounds right he had he had a very fox news reaction the reason i think he believes and i do think he's getting a little more unhing, is because for the past four years, he's just been stewing about this loss that he believes was stolen from him.
Like everyone says, it's like, oh, it's a conspiracy. But to him, it's true.
And that's the powerful thing about conspiracies. And I just think he's kind of been stewing in his penthouse, wherever he is, truth social with his twitter burner he's in the graveyards of tiktok and instagram all the weirdest places on the internet and i think he is he does believe these things and he's getting stranger because i can't imagine trump eight years ago saying that people are eating cats and dogs i just no i can imagine him saying it.
Can you? Can you trust me? Yeah, no, I can imagine. What I think has happened here is he is responding to the algorithm, whereas traditional politicians respond to polling.
The algorithm is feeding him what he wants. But what used to be true is that it was also feeding people like him that same content.
There aren't enough people now on Truth Social getting the same meme about eating pets. And he thinks they are.
Because you know how on your TikTok, you think everybody saw that same TikTok you saw, right? But if you go and you try to talk to someone in the real world about the demure, you know, being mindful, being demure, they have no idea what you're talking about. I'm sorry, that is a very popular TikTok on my TikTok.
But it can be... Oh, no, I think that's pretty...
Is that breaking through? That's great to know. No, no, that's getting out there.
But his are not. The algorithm that's feeding him information is coming through.
Again, nobody's on Truth Social that matters. His burner on Twitter wouldn't be tapped into the fire hose of ideas of Twitter it is now in the you know in the the echo chambers of Twitter and so it feels real but it would have felt more real to him four years ago he would have said something just as insane but there would have been many more I think hundreds of thousands of people who would say yeah yeah, no, I'm getting the same message.

Yeah. Tracey, do you know what? The funny thing is I consider myself who someone who's chronically online to the detriment of my mental health.
But I had never heard that cats and dogs thing. Me either.
I had to look it up. Right.
And I'm someone that's like on the internet as part of my job. So then I'm like, he's just, he is in QAnon land so beyond.

Even those people are like what are you talking about and i think that is a sign that he's crazier no i think he got it i think he got it from um the first i saw it actually was jd vance so i've tried to trace it backwards from where i first saw it but the first example of that that i've seen online is some neo-nazi at like a town hall meeting who starts this whole thing sort of publicly and i you know facebook as well but i think it was actually jd vance and i think we talk about donald trump and his missteps etc. I think the big thing we really take for granted this time around is how stabilizing a force Mike Pence was in Donald Trump's life.

Like sort of to what you're saying, Tressie,

is like Mike Pence wasn't in conspiracy land.

Mike Pence was just a staunch conservative Christian man

who believed that a woman's place was a woman's place and a man's place was a man's place and this was ordained by god and that's what was going to happen like i think that jd vance is part of like a little bubble that's not helping donald trump stay on track because jd vance has been saying the thing about haitians eating and dogs. And Mike Pence, you find, wouldn't have said that.

Mike Pence would have probably been like, this is not true or this is a scam. But what he would have gone to is he would have said to Trump, yeah, the real issue is immigration as a whole.
Like, don't get bogged down in the cats and the dogs of the Haitians in Ohio. No, just focus on immigration.
Talk about the country. And I think that now Trump has created a world that is only full of people who are in his tweet mentions and replies.
Yeah, I think he doesn't have anybody saying to him. Nah, doc, don't say that one.
Exactly. I think maybe the worst thing that Trump has done is get closer to his son.
I think that you've got to be specific about which one okay i think you're saying don jr yes i'm saying don jr okay because don jr is apparently the the you know why he picked jd vance and jd vance is like feeding him the most like actually humorless least charismatic takes and and information because because this is my thing if you take away the the like the cats and dogs thing for a second if you're trying to get that point across there are probably other stories you can twist that that you have verifiable proof happened this is a weird thing to bring to someone bring to someone because it's insanity, right? And so to have it brought to you and then to have it seconded by someone who's also like too online and too weird in his own way. And then you repeat it and then they leave you out to dry because they back you up on it.
But they leave you out to dry because they're the ones that have to face actual interviews in a way yeah yeah so then when collins is talking to jd vance it's like those those are rough those are rougher interviews than people realize because you open yourself up to some pretty bad reasoning and dark stuff against you when you say that you want evidence that there's no evidence because we don't have any evidence that there's no evidence with stuff that you may have not done or not done yeah i mean yeah right right and so i think that jd and don jr have also taken him to a place to look crazier because he's a gullible person that believes stuff and he's believing crazier stuff i just don't know if he's actually crazier but i think i fully agree with what tressie's saying about how he used to have his his finger on the pulse and you'll see like with a lot of content creators because at the end of the day that's what he is yes josh like a lot of content creators you'll see when they don't have the people anymore that's when they go off the deep end yeah you know like that's exactly right i stopped getting the views and all of a sudden i'm in the woods like i'm just so one of the things about jd fans is that he's not only weird i just want to put that he's not only weird i my sense of him and i feel strongly about this he is not on Trump's team he's not Trump's guy he's not there for wait what do you mean when you say that I think Josh is right he's Don Jr's guy I don't think he is there to make Trump uh better I don't think he is there to uh moderate Trump I don't think he is there uh I don't think he cares really if Trump wins. J.D.
Vance is Don's pick, and he is there for J.D. Vance in a way that Mike Pence, not because he loved Donald Trump, but because he was a traditionalist.
If I am the VP, this is what a VP does. I believe in order.
I believe in hierarchy, right?

So I will toe the line.

J.D. Vance is not towing anyone's line

because J.D. Vance is there

to be the more sensible sounding Trump eventually.

He is interviewing for the top job

while pretending to support Trump.

So not only is I think he weird

and probably feeding him some of the weirdest stuff,

he has no impulse to make Trump sound better. Yeah, like he's I think he wants to make it.
He wants Trump to win, obviously, because he's on the ticket. But I think that J.D.
Vance wants to get into the White House with Trump the way that you want to make a flight just barely like you you want to slide in there because if Trump barely wins but then JD can now rise up or start to make him look crazy while he's president I think he tried to house of cards game of thrones but he's not gonna say this reminds me of everything I know about succession right he's some you know like he's a family plant to make the patriarch think he's losing his mind and to help facilitate this downfall. Not that I think Don Jr.
is that coordinated, but I think JD Vance is that much of a savage. We'll be right back after this the the thing that i found myself coming back to for this debate in particular was it felt like trump fell into every trap that kamala set for him we all knew about the trap coming in we all knew i mean they even talked about it on fox news some of the the fox news commentators were saying you know the main thing donald trump has to do is make sure he doesn't say anything sexist and nothing racist even if they bait him don't say it which i i don't know why i found that hilarious i was like the fact that you are out saying publicly that he shouldn't he shouldn't fall for it he shouldn't say something racist i'm like but why why would he unless but anyway and and then he went into these rants i mean he went into like the solar panels rant he went he went back into is she black like i i read it i it was something i read and the and then it got to a point where to your point tressie you know where he went from being the person making the joke to the punchline when he's out there taking the illegal aliens who are in prison and they're making them transgender, even the most conservative right person, unless you are deep in like crazy, you now have to ask yourself a question.
You have to be like, wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry, what sorry what did you say yeah they are now taking illegal aliens and making them transject what like now your theories are in your own theories about what's yeah do you know what i mean when i watched it yesterday something i realized is that along with the jd advances he has a lot of ultra right wing people in his corner and they are the ones doing the prep for the debate.
Hence the conspiracies he was spewing. And what I realized, I was like, you know, we've had these very public endorsements from like Dick Cheney, which to me is a red flag.
You'd be like, why is Cheney endorsing Kamala Harris? But that's my that's my own kind of like you're getting all of these very traditional Republicans coming out and saying, we are here for Harris, right? And Mitch McConnell is nowhere to be found. Like all of these people that we know are operators and they kind of sanitized Trump the last time.
They were like, okay, we're going to get behind him because we need a Supreme Court pick. Like we hate this guy, but we're going to fix him and make him look him look somewhat palatable right and they did a good enough job of that to get him elected president and then last time they were like well we've got what we want from him we're gonna abandon him and i think when i saw him yesterday and he was saying like these really wacky conspiracies i was like oh he's been abandoned by the right wing establishment.
That was all I felt. I felt the people that coached him and prepped him before were able to sanitize him and were able for him to say like, you guys feel broke or the economy is terrible.
Right? Because it was like, he was able to resonate like the message about Mexicans. They clearly knew there was enough sentiment out there that if you're anti-Mexican, you can get away with it.
But most people were like, Haitians, who the hell are they? People were like, you were trying to get us to have an enemy that we're not even familiar enough with Haiti in the psychic and imagination of Americans to be like, we consider them an enemy. Right.
And so when I watched him yesterday, I was just like, it's interesting. You know, they talk about the they talk about the deep he talks about the deep state but i'm like well the deep state have clearly said we're not helping you this time that's what it felt like for me and that's why i think he fell into all of these traps because before they would have said to him just talk about the economy talk about how high the interest rate is talk about the fact i should work for him talk about the fact that this is how much it costs to put gas in your tank.
You know what I mean? Talk about the fact that like, even with the affirmative action ruling, you still can't get your kid into the college that they want. Those are the things that are going to get people riled up.
And he, for me, he didn't touch any of that. But trusty, I don't know how you know.
He misdiagnosed the enemy because his information is both dated, again, extremely insular. And I cannot agree more about the deep state having abandoned him because all Trump's Trump's main power has been he was a very useful and willing idiot.
Right. He was very useful for a strategy that had been in play for 30, 35 years, right?

This is a strategy that they had been executing ever since Ronald Reagan.

He was willing to take it the final step because he has no actual real political career to defend. It's, you know, frankly, too self-centered to care about his legacy, the traditional things that a politician would care about.
So he's useful for their purposes. He is not only less useful now because they've got the Supreme Court,

they've got a ridiculous amount of gerrymandering, right? You don't really need them. But I want to add something else.
They were terrified by January 6th. The deep state relies on the state.
They do not want any, you know who they hate? They hate those people who showed up dressed like Vikings, looking ridiculous. They hate those people.
They use them, right? They court them for votes. But the fact that they came to their front lawn and were looking them in their face, they hate that.
They never want to interact with that person. They don't want to interact with the Trump voter.
They just want the Trump voter to vote for them. And so his willingness to invite them into that inner to invite his crazy followers into that inner circle terrifies, I think, the people who had been helping to shape him and make him more palatable.
And he's less useful to them. They don't really need him.
And so abandoning them not only becomes easy, it now becomes self-interested to do it. Yeah, you got to do it.
If you have things and people start breaking things and these are broke people, by the way, a lot of these people are broke. A lot of these people spent the last of the money that they had to get to Washington to do this thing.
You're like, hey, hey, no, not when the pores are breaking stuff. No, thank you.
Right. and so you as a you as an elite you're like there what elite is there if y'all ruin there were people that climbed the wall next to the stairs i can't be around these people the stairs were right there and look look i'm all for i'm i really am i'm one of those people that if you bring me a bad enough policy or or a corrupt enough government i'm one of those shut it down let's see like we may have to restart whatever right but if we storming and you are climbing next to the stairs i'm turning around i don't care what our cause is you could you could be right but i I got to go.
I can't just be out here

and you climbing

next to the stairs

and I'm on the stairs

and we going to do

the same in my jail time.

That's a good point.

That's a very good point, John.

Oh, man.

Oh, Josh.

The idea that this all turned

for Trump

when they started

climbing that wall.

We're going to wrap up soon, but I think there are two ideas i just want us to chat about so the debate happened it may be the only debate because uh donald trump has come out and basically said he doesn't want to fight kamala harris again uh because he beat her so badly he used boxing josh as an analogy he said she, and he absolutely destroyed her, and he doesn't think it would be fair to go up against her again. So this may be the only debate.
And, you know, Tressie, I mean, you spend so much time, you know, analyzing the mind and people and society. And let me ask you this question.
What do you think a debate is supposed to be? And what do you think it is? So the debate is, you know, morphed into the ultimate political theater. I think it makes us feel like we have more direct participation and control in the political process than we have.
Right. So the idea that I, an informed voter, I like the idea of myself as being an informed citizen, right? This is us taking the class, right? This is us taking election 101.
We sit down, we listen to the professors, and it feeds into our sense that we make informed decisions, right? We are the informed voters, the people who don't pay attention. They are the bad voters.
They're doing it the wrong way. And that's a really seductive way to feel when the actual electoral process has become way more hostile to voters mattering to the process, right? One of the reasons why Donald Trump is still so competitive is just that he's a Republican and the process is set up for a Republican nominee to be competitive.
You could literally put Curious George up as one of the major party candidates and he's going to poll pretty well. So, you know, this is a two party system with an electoral college process.
That means that the individual voter does not matter quite as much as we like

to think that we do. You know, matters to turnout and matters to enthusiasm, that kind of thing.
But the structure is really, really fixed right now. And the debate makes us feel empowered, right? Makes us feel like we have some say.
That's what it does, what we think it does anyway. I I think what it has turned into in our media moment is a little distinct.

It has lost, I think, actually some of its ability to compel attention. We watch it.
It's our jobs to watch it. We love this stuff, right? Yeah.
I went outside the night of the convention, and I live in a pretty literate part of the country where, again, people like to think of themselves as deeply informed voters. And yes, some people were watching it, but there were lots of people walking up and down the street watching the debate on the televisions in the bars going, wait, was there a debate tonight? And I think that is just as likely as the informed voter concept.
And so I think it has lost some of its appeal as like political entertainment, which is why the people who do the horse race political punditry are so obsessed with it. It's kind of one of the last things we as a media class have, where we all have to convene and we all have to pay attention.
But my sense is that it's power with the general audience is waning. But it is still important, I think, for making us feel like we are participating.
And it is important for a candidate like Kamala Harris, who is potentially transformative and unique to go out there before whatever public is watching to say, I am, i'm sane i'm reasonable uh and i can do this job i think it matters to that type of candidate yeah it was a i mean i look i'm happy that kamala harris got the shot you know in in in the world of fighting you you can only win the fights that you're given you know I will always be grateful to Donald Trump for giving her the opportunity to step into the ring with him. Because otherwise, we wouldn't have gotten this.
People wouldn't have gotten the experience. When she came out and shook his hand and said, I'm Kamala Harris, it was such a slick move.
Because it felt like it wasn't about him. It was introducing herself to us, to everyone out there.
And I don't know. It felt like we are one step closer to seeing something that people thought would be impossible just like three months ago.
I won't make the mistake of asking you where you think this is going to go, Tresti. Because I know what you say and I know how your brain thinks about this.
But

yeah, I'm going to say thank you

for joining us. Thank you for joining us

after the debate. Thank you for watching

it with us. And

yeah, you've given me a lot to think

about. I'll think about politics

again differently. I'll think about the debate

differently. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you, Tressie. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions.
The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl.

Claire Slaughter is our producer.

Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown.

Thank you so much for listening.