The Kamala Question with Tressie McMillan Cottom

He stepped away from running from president, but he is still president. You find out who somebody is when they put their two weeks in.
I knew Josh was coming with a quick take. Josh loves, let me tell you Josh, before you say it, there are few human beings whose eyes light up more than yours when somebody has quit their job.
Your eyes light up Josh like someone has just been handed the keys to kick the kingdom you have there's a joy in you that cannot be surpassed by anything when it comes to quitting your job you're listening to what now the podcast where i chat to interesting people about the conversations taking over our world. And the conversation that's taking over the world this week, Joe Biden stepping down from the race and Kamala Harris stepping up.
This has never happened in the history of the United States. Yes, another first.
And to help us navigate this first and make sense of this moment, I invited

writer, sociologist

and all around

amazing person. Oh, and also

MacArthur genius, Tressie McMillan

Cottom to join us on the podcast.

The day the news broke, Tressie

published an opinion article in the New York Times

called Kamala or Bust

and it has totally

reframed the way people are thinking about

this election and what happens next. Now, of course, along with Tressie, I'm joined by two

of my closest friends, writer and journalist and professional hater, Cristiano Mbacu Medina,

and comedian and human chill pill, Josh Johnson. Hey, Josh, how are you? I've missed your face.

I'm good, man. How are you? I am blessed, my friend.
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Just a week ago, we were talking about a former president of the United States essentially being asked to drop out in a very violent way, terrible way, not good at all we were like i wonder which way the race is gonna go i wonder what's gonna happen in america no things have to get even crazier and so now as i sit before you my friends and everyone who's listening as well joe biden the president of the united states has announced that he is 100% not running to be president of the United States again. Which, by the way, is what he promised.
I don't know if everybody remembers this, but when Joe Biden originally ran against Donald Trump, he was like, president, that's not for me. I'm just sleepy old Joe.
I'm just trying to help the republic. And I'm just here, you know, one white man against the other.

I'm going to fight this guy for you.

And then I'm gone.

I'm gone.

And then he got into the White House.

And he got a little bit of that White House chef.

And a little bit of that White House masseuse.

And he was like, hmm.

And in a way that was reminiscent for most Africans.

He was like, I know I said I was going to leave.

But what if I stay a little bit longer? When he was running again, I was like, uh-uh, wait. You said, and you said to me, did he lie? Did Joe lie to me? He didn't lie.
He was telling the truth. No, he didn't lie.
He told the truth eventually. He got there in the end.
Yes, yes. It was a very delayed telling of the truth.
He got there. the end yes yes it was it was a very delayed telling of the truth he got there yeah but you know how um they say that if if a mother is in distress and her baby is in distress she she can summon the strength to lift a car to get the car off her baby right yeah i've heard this they they never say that about fathers and so i think that that's exactly what happened.
I think that Joe saw the country in distress. He saw this like imminent threat, you know, to overall democracy in our institutions.
And then he ran up to the car and was like, and then he was like, we're going to need the jaws of life. We're going to need some firefighters, please.
I mean, it's once again, America is in just uncharted territory. Like once again, everything around Donald Trump is not boring.
Whatever it is, it is not boring. Let's just say that.
Like if Donald Trump is in your life, like if Donald Trump came from an Africanan family they would pray for him because they'd say they are demons in his life i mean yeah seems pretty you actually believe that we're not gonna go down that road no really like people people would be praying for him they'd be like they'd be like you have to pray you have to pray for donald trump you have to pray please every time something in his life if you know him if you are next to him something bad can happen something crazy can happen oh lord jesus we must pray for donald pray for donald trump something is that's what they would say about you because because this is crazy and today today i want us to try get to a bunch of things like one i want us to talk about the joe biden of it all like a president who was convinced literally like a week or so ago that he was definitely going to run for for re-election and then told us no he's not tweeted that he's not and then i guess you know the the kamala harris of it all and we're going to be speaking about it with one of my favorite human beings in the entire world an entire world i mean she's truly one of the smartest people i know um half of everything she's written has informed how I see the world. Her name is Tressie McMillan-Cottom.
First of all, welcome to the podcast. Second of all, Tressie, I know you don't live in the news, but when you heard the news, Biden out, what was the first thing you thought? Well, first of all, hello, my darling, darling Trevor.
So happy to always see you.

So listen, no, I try not to live in the news. I want to be a real human being.
That matters a lot to me. But I also have this job, right? And I have to know.
And I feel like I take one for the team. So what I tell my friends is you don't have to watch it.
I'll watch it and I'll filter it back to you. I'm like, just watch the housewives and I'll tell you if we have a country tomorrow.
So same, I get the, you know, I get the text message like everyone else. I mean, I think maybe I get it like 60 seconds early only because of my colleagues at the New York Times.
And I think I knew by like the week before it wasn't looking good, not because I thought Biden was necessarily on death's door, but because he had lost donors. And politics is money.
And when you start losing the donors, I thought the message was on the was on the wall. I was stunned how they did it on a Sunday with a tweet and a sort of like generally worded sort of statement.
I thought that was kind of strange. It sounded like someone who still wasn't quite at terms with his decision.
And then my next thought was, oh, my God. Just, oh, my God, here we go.
Right.

It's one thing to have to look at Donald Trump for the next. And then my next thought was, oh, my God.
Just, oh, my God, here we go.

Right?

It's one thing to have to look at Donald Trump for the next election season.

It's another thing to listen to Donald Trump run against a woman of color.

Oh, damn.

I didn't even think of it like that. Yeah, I don't know if I can be drunk enough for what's about to happen.

First of all, before we get into, like, the nitty grittygritty wait you get news 60 seconds before the rest of us no no that's i've never said any such thing i said you said you said i got it like 60 seconds you're on a delay over there you don't know what you heard i simply said i got a text message in a group chat okay i've never gone on the record about 60 seconds and I'm not changing that now. I am pretty certain.
Can I tell you that you are the most responsible? I would be using that to no end. If I got the news 60 seconds before the general public because I worked at a newspaper, would just be like i just got a bad feeling man

i feel like trump shouldn't be standing on that podium i don't know man i would just be texting people the entire time just so i become like the savant of the group but but but okay you you you know can we all admit or do am i the only one who feels like this was handled in a really weird way because i understand a presidential candidate pulling out i understand somebody saying that they're not gonna run again i don't know about you i'm not even a conspiracy theorist but it was weird that the president of the united states who has been very publicly running on every platform the guy was now doing like TikToks with with people turns around and sends a tweet out that's like yo peace out i'm not doing this anymore and that's it not a video yo even like even athletes will make a video you know they'll come up to be like for 15 years you've supported me as i've played the beautiful game and now it is time for me to hang up my boots and spend time with my family. Thank you so much.
Guys, we got a tweet. That to me was bizarre, but also the fact he was announcing his retirement from politics, effectively.
I felt for him because I'm like, oh, you're actually not getting the retirement party, which I think everyone deserves. Everyone deserves like a nice little farewell retirement party.
But I was like, it was so much to process. And it felt like he, Tressie, to your point, that he hadn't quite metabolized the fact that I'm not just dropping out the race.
I don't have a job. Yeah.
Yeah. I think it's a couple of things.
One, they're trying to stay ahead of the gossip, right? And so you just go to like the quickest medium. But I also suspect that no one wanted to see Joe Biden on camera in that moment.
And I think his team knew it because you need to not only do the statement, right? He'd have to embody it. He would have to look, you know, confident and presidential in his choice.
And I wonder if you couldn't quite pull that off. By all accounts, he had only made the decision, you know, shortly before the news was announced.

I think maybe seeing it on film might have jeopardized the message. And, you know, would you want somebody recording you when you get fired? I mean, to your point, and also for Christiana and Trevor, I think that one of the things that made it feel weird to you is culturally you come from a different background.
In the U.S., in the America that we live in, what you do is when you send somebody off to the nurse at home, don't act like those grandparents didn't have plans that week. They had told people what they were going to'll see you at lunch tomorrow girl and then out of nowhere they just missing oh you see now you're getting into conspiracy land yeah you know going to go into your analogy josh it is weird for grandpa to send a tweet to the family saying that grandpa's not coming to the cookout when grandpa was like this is my cookout yeah you're all invited to the cookout and we're doing this thing and i'm i'm gonna be there and i'm bringing my my world famous potato salad and everybody's gotta come and and it's like but grandpa mom says you're too old to be he's like i'm never too old to run a cookout i'll always be at the cookout and then the next message you get from your grandfather is due to unforeseen circumstances i will no longer be at the cookout i wish you well and your mother will be creating the it it it doesn't help create stability in a country where people already feel like everything they hear and and understand about politics is a lie that's that's what i feel it doesn't mean it kind of lended credence to that kind of Trumpy message of the deep state.
And there's talk of donations and the billionaire class. We had the George Clooney's and the entertainment class saying, hey.
Oh, that was unfortunate. So calls are being made.
And by the way, Obama's Medium post was so long, you could tell he had that in the draft for at least a week, right? Because it's like, this is not something that you're incredibly loquacious and intelligent. You didn't write this.
I'm with Christiana on this. You know, you didn't write this in an hour.
It was like so thoughtful. I'm like, oh, this was in your drafts and you had done multiple edits.
So it kind of lent credence to this idea that there are these forces that operate within American

politics on a subterranean level. And in the right, they're very explicit about it.
We think about the Heritage Foundation, we think about the Koch brothers, etc. But you're like, oh, the progressives have that thing too.
They just look a bit different. And that was a thing that I think has made people feel like going to conspiracy land because it feels strange.
I agreehmm. I agree.
There's this sense that somebody took Biden's keys away, you know. He said, no, this is it.
It's your last day driving. And he didn't know until the keys were gone.
And that absolutely does give this sense that someone's in control, but it wasn't necessarily Biden. And then the inevitable questions are, well, then who? Who gets to make that call, right? Who is the person who gets to push it? And I agree.
There is a billionaire political class on both sides. On the right, we are able to name it a little more easily.
I suspect on the left, it's because there's like an inter-party battle between multiple people trying to be in charge whereas on the right they tend to agree who's in charge to to your to your point then if the keys could be taken away from the commander-in-chief doesn't it sort of mean then the keys shouldn't be with the commander-in-chief you do you know what i mean i know it's it's circular but in a way, I go, do you want somebody to run for president for another four years if somebody can take the keys away from them and send that message? I think it's a really good point. And I think it's a point that had really already settled with a lot of voters, right? So you see the, you know, the polling, really saw the polling in 2020.
People were already concerned about his age.

You know, the polling was already still there ahead of this election. But then, you know, there's the debate performance.
And I just don't think we can overlook that. The debate felt like the last time that Biden made a call because he chose to have that debate.
He pushed for it. And that decision, I think, called into question his ability to make precisely those types of decisions.

Did you want someone who hadn't quite accurately parsed where the electorate was? And everybody goes into panic mode, which again suggests that there were people prepared to do exactly that, which I do think lends some credibility to the idea that there were already concerns within the inner circle. Yeah.
And I also think as painful as it is, I feel like that debate for Biden was when your mom looks at you and she's like, grandpa got one more time to put that remote in the fridge. If you put the remote in the fridge again, he can't be on his own.

Yeah.

Like, I don't know if I can trust Grandpa with you if I can't trust him with the remote. Essentially, that's how America felt in that moment.
But before we move on to Kamala and the new direction, conversation, and everything that's happening now in the country i just want to spend a second talking about what what you brought up um tressie the donor class it is pretty wild that arguably the most powerful nation in the world a nation that proudly proudly touts its its um its democracy and its democratic values as you know liberal and progressive as you you want to say the democratic party is the money spoke the people didn't speak in this instance or the people that spoke as a collective weren't heard as much as the people who spoke with their wallets like Like, what does that say about America's democracy and where it stands? Even if this outcome may be what people wanted, what does this say about America and the way the system actually works? The American political process, especially running for president, is one of the most, you know, circumscribed, contrived, maybe maybe things that we do that gives you the sense that every individual voter is casting a ballot for freedom. But in fact, very few people go into the ballot box really deciding who they want to vote for.
You go into the ballot box as either a Democrat or a Republican. But really where voters have the most sort of leverage is in the moment when the donor class hasn't consolidated around a candidate.
Right. They're sort of looking at the tea leaves, trying to see who people will support.
After that point, money weighs in on that kind of the, you know, the individual voters power really is significantly diminished. We have got this scenario which Donald Trump has been able to blow through.
It's why his takeover of the Republican Party has been both stunning and almost absolute. He bucked money and won.
And in politics, the idea has been for at least 40, 50 years, you don't win without the money. Right.
Yeah. And so that's how he was able to bring, quote unquote, moderate Republicans to heel.
He was able to show that he could control the donor class on our side. I think and I say our let's be, you know, my politics are probably clear here.
I don't want to live under Donald Trump. So I don't think I'm giving anything away.
I think we're clear there. But, you know, on our side, I think, one, we're always so self-conscious that we don't have enough billionaires.
Right. Like, oh, the right's got, you know, tech.
They've got oil. They've got, you know, and we only have George Soros.
And so we're so panicked about not having enough billionaires that I think we're also more susceptible to falling in line.

But the reality is, yeah, money matters. It definitely feels, this is maybe a bit contrived of an analogy, but it does feel a lot like wrestling now.
And it's just more out in the open because wrestling, a very specific type, is fake. And thing that happens though is that those narratives are written it's written who's going to be the champ it's written who's all that stuff but what people don't realize is that those narratives are written off of crowd reaction so the crowd the crowd literally does control i like for a little while they control everything because then they see where the crowd is cheering and they're like, okay, let's write it for this guy to win his next couple matches.
But if the crowd says, oh, this is all pre-written and no one cares what we think, now the writers don't know what to do. And that feels like where we're at right now, where it's like, I think some people have already had this like foregone conclusion to hopelessness because Kamala is a black woman

and because Donald Trump's a white guy. And I think that that is also lending itself a little

bit to like the counterintuitive thing with wrestling where it's like, if you just show up

and you don't even clap, you just stare and watch and you're like, this is fake. Now,

now the thing isn't a tailspin.

We'll be right back after this.

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For these and more conversations with government, business, and cultural leaders, search tools and weapons wherever you listen to your podcasts. Cristiano, what you and I spoke about the other day was how there was the initial shock that Joe Biden's instantly out there was an overwhelming feeling of despair and then Joe Biden endorses Kamala Harris and people go but what does that even mean does it does it count does it not count but I don't I don't know who phoned whom and I don't know black girl zoom can we talk about I was about to say it was the black girl can we talk about the black girl zoom tressie i'm sure you were on there on sunday i was on there the black the black girl magic yeah tell me a little bit about the the call because i can't say too much can we it was officially it was off the record yeah yeah but it's everywhere yeah everywhere social media is talking talking about everywhere.
Everyone is talking not about the contents of the call, but people are talking about the sentiment and how many people joined in and the fact that a million dollars was raised on a Zoom call. Normally people pay to go off a Zoom call.
I do want to say that Zoom has a cap to how many people are allowed on a call. I think it's like 10,000.
The COO of Zoom is a South Asian woman and she made some calls. So the cap was raised and that was why 44,000 black women and some allies were able to be on that call.
So that tells you there's something happening. There's something in the air.
I'll let Tressie talk about the organizing aspects of the call. But what I will say is that Joe Biden backed out and black women said, women said you're not going to step over carmela that's what happened like everyone else was hopeless and confused and we were like oh no no there's an there's an option and you're not going to do that thing that happens in offices all the time when a white man leaves a job we know who's the most qualified we know who's been doing the work we know who's been overlooked everyone knows the black woman in the office, right? Who never really gets to be COO, makes a C-suite.
And I think there was just something in our consciousness that said, you're not going to step over her. And that's for people that don't, I don't particularly like her that much.
You know, honestly, she's not much. I'm with you, Christina.
Yeah, we would never be homegirls. My hair is too natural.
I'm too loud. Yeah.
I'm not polishing off her. I curse too much.
Yeah, yeah. I'm like, I don't have the silk press.
Yeah. However, I said, we are behind her.
And I think that's the important thing to realize that like all black women don't see themselves in her, don't necessarily agree with her past. But we're like, you're not about to get him out the way and step over her.
That's right. But Tressie, let me let you go ahead.
No, I could not agree with any of that more. What they did was they activated Voltron when they started floating any other name.
Right. It became impossible for any black woman I know, again, including myself.
I'm like Christiana. I am not a silk press girl.
Right. So I'm not invited to the cotillions.
And that's OK. I'm not you know, I don't spend my summers at the vineyard and all that kind of stuff.
But every Black woman who has ever worked, and every Black woman has worked, has been in a room where she has the answers, the experience, and is expected to train her replacement, to support the people who have less education than her and to earn less while she's doing it. And so when you saw this calling up of people who have been trying to be in that inner circle for years and haven't made it, a Gavin Newsom, are you kidding me? Big Gretch, love her if you like in Michigan, but she's brand new.
And everybody going, no, every Black woman felt that moment. And the call that goes out is sort of like, you know, a cross between word of mouth and tapping into Black organizations, sororities and church groups and et cetera.
So the infrastructure was there. But what really happened, I think, was this, you know, this collective recognition among Black women that, oh, we know how this story goes.
And listen, Kamala win or lose has earned her shot to run. If Kamala is good enough to be vice president, she's good enough to be president.
And if you have an argument against that, you have to make it explicitly. And you don't just get to slide in the guy with the white guy with the good hair.

Yeah.

That would be Gavin.

I also think that, yeah, it's like if she's good enough to be vice president, she's good enough to be president. And she was one more COVID away anyway.

Wow.

Damn.

One more COVID away. Okay, I'll say this though.
I've had conversations with like, every time I would meet a CEO, like a really, you know, a CEO of a huge company, I would always ask them the same question. How did you get here? Why did you get here? What were the things that got you here, et cetera, et cetera? And can I tell you, if I was to distill it down in my little amateur anecdotal experiment that I've run with CEOs of major, major corporations around the world, the number one thing that has come across from all of them is that somebody gave them a shot and just said, you know what, kid? Why don't you come work for me? Because I see myself in you.
That phrase, I see myself in you, has made me realize that the real privilege or disadvantage in this world to being a black woman, particularly, by the way, versus a white man, is that people think it's worth taking a shot on you. And your success or failure doesn't determine the perception of everybody else in that space we see that with ceos all the time you know how many ceos josh and i talk about this all the time you know how many ceos take over a company lose hundreds and millions if not billions of dollars in value for the company leave the company with a massive severance and and then go on to another company to become CEO where they might repeat the same thing.
And nobody goes, oh, these white men, you just got hired because you're, they're just like, yeah, no, that sucks. And here's their severance.
And to what you're saying, Tressie and Christiana, I go, if anything, Kamala Harris has shown that she's as qualified as many, if more qualified By the way Than many of the people Who have been assumed Qualified for the job She has shown That she's definitely She has a right To at least get in the driver's seat Because if it was only About being qualified Half of these people Wouldn't have even been allowed In the White House Does that make sense? Yeah? Yeah. It's interesting how.
It's interesting how like. Black women in particular.
Have to justify like. The nitty gritties of their qualifications.
To be considered for the conversation. When most people do not.
If you're too old. They're like no this person is seasoned.
If you're too young. They're like this person is fresh.
But when you're a black woman. but I don't know Could you be the first black woman You've never been a black woman president So I don't know if you could do it Yeah I don't know if you could do it I also think that Very few people have A level of emotional intelligence To see themselves in another person I think what's actually happening is I see myself on you.

And that's why it's so hard to transfer that to anyone who's not like you.

Does that make sense?

Oh, damn.

Explain more, Josh.

So like that's, I think I know what you mean, yeah.

Like, let's say I roll with a bunch of comedians

all the time.

And they're all different colors, different backgrounds.

But the ones I gravitate towards the most

and the ones that I like sort of usher in and try to help the most just happen to be the black men. Because I don't see myself in them.
I see myself on them. I see myself as like, oh yeah, I know how to fix that struggle because that's the exact struggle I went through.
Meanwhile, even not meaning to, whether it's a white woman or a white guy, I'm like, oh yeah, I don't know what to do when people are mad at you for showing up because that version of that hasn't happened to me. When really an emotionally intelligent person would be able to transfer the fact that anybody, anybody who has your hustle has your hustle, no matter what they look like or no matter what background they are.
But we tend to – that's why people, you know, oh, I see myself in this young kid caddying at the country club it's like yeah but this kid already has ties to the country club like like he's do you know I mean you don't you you somehow see yourself in the caddy you don't see yourself in this kid that's hustling on a street corner in the inner city who's really doing the same hustle that you did back in the day. For me, I think that's why she's actually, I'm excited about her because for a lot of white people, she's very familiar.
You know, she's very palatable. Like we can't get beyond the beauty politics.
She's an attractive, light-skinned woman who wears her hair straight. She is culturally familiar.
They all know every one of them has someone in their family who's biracial they like most of these people have just one and that's what barack had he was just like oh we you know so and so's grandson is like him you know you know his dad is black but you know but she's incredibly palatable that they there's a enough familiarity that perhaps if it was someone like myself or tressie they they'd be like alarm bells. Cause they're like, well, that is an ambiguous blackness and we can't deal with that.
That's natural hair. But Kamala in many ways fits a role and she has a white husband.
So they're like, okay, well she goes home to us. She is the person that you'd invite to your wedding or you would socialize with.
And for me, that's why I'm like, we've got to get behind this one because it's more likely her to me than anyone else. And yeah, it's not a Stacey Abrams, to Christiana's point, right? Where people look at that figure and that unambiguous Blackness is terrifying.
I think the intersection here of what Josh has said and what Christiana is explicating is like the sweet spot for me, which is we like to think that we can identify talent and grit or whatever and other people. It's almost always a projection of our ego.
Right. Yeah.
I remember someone telling me once that she had to stop going to her gym class because they switched out the class leader. And the one before used to be a light-skinned Dominican like her, but the new one was darker-skinned and Puerto Rican, and so she couldn't identify anymore.
And I just remember thinking, what in the world? So the moves didn't hit the same? The moves don't hit the same when he'd go from the DR to the PR. I don't know how it worked, but she was just so like, oh, this person used to look exactly like me.

And so I could project my ego. But, you know, it doesn't take much, I think, for people to see someone as distinctly other than them.
Right. What Kamala has is still has in this moment is enough malleability where people can project their ego, especially non-black people, can project their ego onto her without a lot of fear about her difference.
And I think to Christiana's point, there are not going to be a lot of Black women politicians at that level of competitiveness that are going to have that. And if part of what we have to do in this country is break this nation's mental image of what a president looks like, what competence looks like, then you've got to do it with your best shot.
I do wonder though, how being a woman will affect her. You know, I feel like a lot of people are talking about black woman.
And I think not enough people are talking about woman.

Again, this is just my perception of America.

Blackness is tied to so many cool things these days.

And it's become so ubiquitous in so many areas of American life that subconsciously some people,

like they're fine with black even if they may be racist on certain occasions and they do you get what I'm saying it's it's it's no longer as um as excuse the pun black and white as it used to be you know it's no longer just people who are like I don't like black people no it's like someone who goes like I don't like these n-words but you know know, and as Lil Wayne, my favorite rapper says, you know, there's nothing I can do. So I've had conversations with groups of people and I would say to them, I'd be like, hey, do you think a woman could do it? And the amount of times women have said to me, half joking, but then sometimes very serious, like, I'll be honest, I like the idea, but i don't think a woman could be president i i just i just don't think a woman could be could be president how much do you think that that'll actually play into them in the booth you know like like josh you've said many times like you're like i'll never vote for a woman and i was going like why not why would you do this to me in this moment? I was actually mind my own business.

You said wrestling was fake.

You said wrestling was fake.

I was listening.

Come on here and say wrestling is fake.

I was being a good listener.

I actually have a counter to that, though.

I think we should not forget.

I hope so.

We should not forget Hillary won the popular vote.

In terms of raw numbers, she got more votes than Donald Trump because of the nature of the American electoral system that weights more votes than others. She didn't win the votes that matter.
The greatest goddamn system in the world. Yeah, she just didn't win the votes that win elections.
But she got more votes purely, right? And to me, like my experience as a black woman, it may be different for Kamala. Tressie, I'd love to hear you weigh in.

I think people see my blackness more than they see my womanhood.

I've always felt like defeminized or desexualized or over-sexualized, depending on the context.

So when I deal with men in professional spaces, they don't see women because what they associate with women are their wives and their daughters. They see black.
And what is great for me is that they're scared of me.

So I think that when Kamala debates Trump, he's going to be scared. Now, what a white man is going to do to me is much more subterranean.
It's psychological. It's about my pay.
It's about my treatment. It's about, can I be, you know, promoted? But I've seen white men treat white women in a way because of the intimacy and familiarity that they do not.
Black women, we don't experience that. And I've always said the best thing about me is that people think I'm angry.
And because people think I'm angry, they're scared of me. And that fear is actually very useful politically.
And if you watch Kamala in debates, she dog walked Biden. You have to remember that moment when she had the T-shirts ready.
And it's just she's a prosecutor she's a lawyer she's actually used to yes dealing with the psychology of a certain type of very powerful white man whereas he just doesn't know what to do um so for me i think that like actually her blackness neutering her womanhood is gonna be the thing that she's able to maneuver this election in a way that actually Hillary never could because Hillary they're like you remind us of our nagging wife that was it that's why those men they were like whereas Kamala like I kind of find you I kind of find you hot you're attractive but you're also smarmy but then you wear these suits and I think that the the mind fuckness of it all is going to be the thing that actually is the beneficial, the beneficial element of what intersectionality does to you that makes your life hard in the right occasion. Can also be positive.
That's right. That's right.
In some contexts, you have intersecting oppressions, right, that limit your life. And then in this other, maybe more narrow context, it can benefit you.
We always forget the benefit part. And I'm always pushing people on that precisely for the reasons Christiana says.
I have been the black woman. I'm still that black woman in the room.
I know that the fact that people do not see me as a full woman also conditions them to be, to acquiesce to me in some circumstances of leadership, right? Oh, this is interesting. same way they would to a man, especially if I may be dealing with people who have some professional exposure to Black women, but not intimate exposure to Black women.
Let me tell you, one of the things that terrifies me is how TikTok is ruining that for Black women. They have made us so accessible to white men.
They are messing with

my superpower. I don't need them knowing how I wrap up my hair.
I don't need them understanding all of this process. So now I'm out there in the world and sometimes white men are like, oh, I know about you.
And I'm like, no, no, I did not want, I get over on the fear that works for me.

Yeah, but there is a latent sort of fear about not being able to anticipate black women that especially a very insular, wealthy white man from the Northeast would feel is just an unknown quantity. Right.
And I think that one of the things that Trump is going to have a problem with, which I think his team is already demonstrating, they don't know how to prep for her. He doesn't deal with any Black women in his life.
And Kamala's not afraid of him, can confuse him, can manipulate the line between, you know, womanness and Blackness in a way that gives her the upper hands. And I think Kamala is very comfortable with that.
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Thanks to Amazon, healthcare just got less painful. So, okay, let me ask you this.
Just a fun game I like to play. None of this means anything because predictions, in my opinion, are useless, but they are fun.
They are fun. I think every time you predict the future, you create like an alternate universe.
So, Josh, you looked at me like I'm both crazy and genius at the same time. I have $10 million.
Yeah, but you see, you don't. You don't.
Now, Josh in another universe universe does he also just got a call from the irs wanting to know how he just got 10 million dollars and his life how dare you down um i i would love to know this um who do you think is the perfect running mate because i feel like i feel like every single combination comes with another combination like if it's like if she gets another woman and if it's a white woman then it's like is this what does this mean or what does this say is this like is this like andrew tate's wet dream and then if it's like her and a white man what does it say and if it's a black man is an older white man is a younger white man is it a like what do you think she looks for as a running mate to go up against donald and the man with the beard, the beautiful beard, J.D. Vance? Oh, J.D.
Vance. What a beard.
Okay. Oh, what a beard.
As they say on the internet, if you're going to gang theory this thing, yeah. Yeah, yeah, fully gang.
I think that you already have, you already have a disruptive ticket if Kamala's at the head. I would hope, I'm actually kind of hoping, a small part of me, that they will lean into being disruptive.
I think that if you get a white man, a more palatable white man as vice president, the constant optics of that will be the black woman being a white man's boss. You see what I'm saying? And I think that that is a fear that you know that can prime some sort of like anger and anxiety that will actually be greater than they have the fear they have of Kamala being president I don't think you I don't I wouldn't set up those optics like if I was in charge I think you almost I think you lean into being the most radical ticket that there has ever been I'm putting the woman on there I'm'm actually going to put Gretchen on there.
I'm going to double down on it and say, you've got a future here where it is a Trump and a J.D. Vance who have a vision of America that's absolutely about patriarchy.
Or you can do this thing and you can feel cool. That's so interesting, Trezzy.
I never thought of it that way, but your conceptualization is brilliant as always. And yeah, the most...
Or I'm crazy. No, no, no, but I think there is some...
It sounds a lot like, yeah. It's crazy, but America is a crazy, very young country that sometimes will buy into something that is unexpected.
Like they made Schwarzenegger the governor of California. We're not serious.
We're not serious people. Christiana, come on.
It's a very unserious. So why not? You might as well go for it.
I mean, my instincts, and I said this on Instagram, and maybe this is the part of me that's very British and like a boring political scientist. I felt the VP should be like the most precedented thing.
White man, 2.5 kids, very attractive and quiet wife, goes to church, drinks once every six months, like as boring as possible. And only drinks the blood of Jesus.
And only drinks the blood of Jesus, the blood of the lamb during communion. That's right.
That was my instinct. And I guess this is the fear in me as a black woman in this country is that I feel that what Biden was able to do for Obama, because I think Biden was critical to getting Obama elected.
you need those kind of undecided voters who are going to go into the you know those couple hundred

thousand who decide in the morning what they're going to do they were like oh well at least my

body will be there so you just may need to just capture, just boost turnout in Georgia. And people in Georgia are going to be like, okay, black woman, white man, I, you know, I can go for this.
No, I think that's the straight political read. And I suspect exactly the conversation that's happening because you are a political scientist.
And that is, I think, how they think about it. The vice president historically is supposed to deliver votes that the president can't deliver.
The only thing that's questionable here is that we don't know if people will vote for a Black woman at all. So you don't quite know what vote she can bring.
And so that complicates choosing, I think, a vice presidential candidate. And I think that yours is the sober path to take.
Mine is absolutely drunk, right? And I just think, however, that because we are so deeply unserious, one of the things this country does is that do we progress? Yes, but we don't do it slowly, right? We have these long periods of almost regressive politics and then we'll make these huge leaps in like two weeks. Everything changes in two weeks.
I want them to campaign on here's, you know, let's capture lightning in a bottle. But the more sober, I think, assessment is to play it with more familiarity.
I think that I very much wish that Tressie had gone last because I feel like yours was so good that now mine is going to sound. OK, I'm going to try it anyway.
I think you could go Mark Kelly because Mark Kelly is like a former astronaut, current, you know, senator. He could call J.D.
and Trump dumb to their face and mean it. Right.
Then you also have Andy Beshear, who's like Kentucky governor, who who doesn't have enough he's interesting he doesn't have enough name recognition but you can see how what i like about him is that he is the most southern version and honestly like identity politics wise the most white man version of someone's heart being in the right place like he he represents this sort of like white base who's like who means well and doesn't always get it right but is like fully on board i think that's actually a really interesting choice andy bashear i'm gonna go okay i think kamala harris should pick a latino running mate and go balls to the wall just go like, this is going to be like the ticket of firsts. First, everything is being done here.
It's like a fire sale. One time only, America.
One time only. November 9th.
This is the first of first. You get it here.
And go there. Like the Latino caucus has been doing an amazing job.
They've been mobilizing people. They've been overlooked for a long time.
They're one of the biggest populations in America. I just think this is the time to think out of the box and be like, you know what? Go and get these people who have been like, you know, sort of overlooked and then only spoken about when it comes to the border and all of that.
Get a Latino person on the ticket and be like, yeah, let's swing. If you swing and miss with that ticket, I mean, what a miss.
That was monumental. And I think if America shipped it all in on that, if Kamala shipped it all in on that, I think that would be the greatest story, win or lose, that America's ever told.
That's my pitch. Final thoughts for everyone.
Is Biden just like gone now is is this because biden stepped away from the campaign but it sort of feels like you know to you to what you said earlier christiana it sort of sort of feels like biden has stepped away from everything it's it's a it's a strange feeling to have but does this make him the ultimate lame duck? I think, unfortunately, you know, Biden's whole life has been marred by tragedy in some ways, like losing his wife and his daughter, losing his son, having another son with addiction challenges. And he's done a great job of, like, overcoming those things and embracing it and making it part of his political rhetoric.
I think there was so much foreshadowing that now we're seeing that his political career has ended in a tragedy. You know, this kind of like an older man battling health issues, battling issues in his family, kind of just being pushed to the side and, you know, also not having a voice that matters.
And I think this is just an end to a very kind of tragic political career in ways. And I think he just kind of goes down in history as this tragic figure.
And it's really, the final image is a tweet, you know, and there's no overcoming that. But Tressie, I'd be really curious about how you feel about it.
I strongly agree. The one thing that we, the one narrative we tend to share in this country across political divide, across class, across race, is that age equals being feeble.
And unfortunately for Biden, he didn't age after the office. He aged while in office.
So we saw him in the White House elderly in a way that I think resonates with everyone, no matter who they are. And unfortunately, we don't have a redemption narrative for a person who ages, right? The only narrative we have for being elderly is that we sort of coddle you into the next stage of your life.

And that coddling is antithetical to gravitas, to Christiana's point, right? He's now seen as an elderly figure. I think we are a media-driven culture, and I think the image of him will supersede, unfortunately, his record for the short term or near term?

Here's my thing. I disagree slightly only because of the opportunity that I think he has.
He has the opportunity that everyone wishes that they had when they run for office the first time.

Because anytime somebody runs for office the first time, they're talking all that good stuff.

I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this.
This guy is like, hey, look, I'm never coming back.

I'm almost gone. Free school lunch.
Y'all can come get me. Come get me.
Free school lunch for everybody. Right.
I'm telling you, all he has to do is just 18, 20 executive orders. Just like, you know what? Maternal leave for everybody.
Come get me in court. I won't be here, but you could argue with yourself.
You can argue with my ghost. Yeah.
Oh, man. Well, I will say that, Josh, you know what? If that, man, it might not happen for us, but in the alternate universe you just created, those people are having a really, really good time, my friend.
Oh, I want Biden to be a fool. Those people are having a really, really good...
Oh, man, I just... Hold on.
on hold on i'm just checking the uh i've got an app that shows me in the executive order world that you created biden has just taxed everyone who got 10 million dollars or more oh huh so josh johnson has the exact same amount of money that he has in this reality but he gets but he gets a free school lunch. He gets a free school lunch.

What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions and Fullwell 73. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Ben Winston, Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avigan.
Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Claire Slaughter is our producer.

Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown.

Thank you so much for listening.