A Case for Compassion

Speaker 1 This episode is brought to you by Spotify Portal for Backstage. But you're wondering, what's Portal?

Speaker 1 Well, it's an internal developer portal built to improve developer experience and boost productivity. All software components are centralized, documentation is automated and easy to maintain.

Speaker 1 New projects and components? Just a few clicks with your best practices already built in. Think less friction, more innovation.
Ready to double your productivity?

Speaker 1 Try Spotify Portal at backstage.spotify.com.

Speaker 2 None of that harsh rubbing needed, and you don't even have to rinse afterwards. It leaves skin cleansed, refreshed, and never dry.
Head to Amazon to shop Garnier Waterproof Micellar Water Now.

Speaker 3 We need to give you you an African name, Josh. Yeah.

Speaker 3 We need to find something for you. I want to call you,

Speaker 3 we call you like Manta. Manja would be a good South African name for you.

Speaker 4 What does that mean?

Speaker 3 It means strength.

Speaker 3 I would give that to you, Josh.

Speaker 3 Why are you laughing at yourself, Josh?

Speaker 3 It's just

Speaker 3 strength.

Speaker 5 Okay, so basically, I was doing my big greet last night at the club after the show. Yeah.
And there was a big man, big, big man, tall man, right? And he was so excited.

Speaker 5 And he was like, I've been watching you on Facebook and I'm so proud of you. And he grabbed my hand and his hand was so big and he was so strong that we both heard my knuckle pop.

Speaker 3 He shook my hand.

Speaker 3 That was funny.

Speaker 3 And then he was all like, ooh, I'm sorry.

Speaker 5 I'm like, nah, nah, I'm good. I'm good.
And I'm literally trying to adjust my hand.

Speaker 3 Oh, man, that is funny.

Speaker 5 And so for you the next day to be like, strength.

Speaker 3 i find that a lot of the african names that people have been given have actually proved true in some way shape or form and so i feel like if we give you mandla then then you'll you know how do you say money muscles

Speaker 3 money muscles yeah just go ahead and get both of them in one what i'm sorry what

Speaker 3 you're listening to what now the podcast where i chat to interesting people about the conversations taking over our world We'll start off by hitting some fun news stories. Is AI just a farce?

Speaker 3 And can we finally start slinging racist report cards at corporations?

Speaker 3 But the big idea for this week, masculinity, violence, and why we keep seeing stories of young people, especially young men, harming others out of a sense of alienation from society.

Speaker 3 We'll touch on some serious themes today, but like I always say, I think no matter the topic, if you're doing it with smart people you respect, you can always find a way to have a rewarding conversation.

Speaker 3 Now, the only thing I love more than peeling back the layers of a story is doing it with my favorite thinkers.

Speaker 3 So, once again, I'm joined by writer and journalist Cristiano Mbakwe Medina and comedian, writer, and strongest man in the world,

Speaker 3 Josh Johnson.

Speaker 3 Welcome to What Now.

Speaker 3 How's everybody doing?

Speaker 3 This is What Now with Trevor Noah.

Speaker 3 What's up, everybody? Happy Podcast Day. How y'all doing?

Speaker 5 Happy Podcast Day.

Speaker 3 I'm doing well.

Speaker 4 Happy Podcast Day.

Speaker 3 Josh, how's the road treating you? Because I feel like you, I mean, like, obviously, we used to roll together on the road all the time, but these days you're

Speaker 3 like, like, now you're like road, road comic. Yeah.
How are you feeling? Is it lonely? Is it tiring? Is it, you know?

Speaker 5 I feel pretty good, actually. I feel like my entire life has been preparing me for this.
I've slept on a lot of couches.

Speaker 3 I've done a lot of things in life to get to this point.

Speaker 5 And I was a road dog the whole time without knowing it, you know?

Speaker 3 Right. Yeah.
My life has been preparing me for this moment. All my life.
This is what I've been preparing for. Christiana, how's life treating you? How's how's the mom world going?

Speaker 4 It's miserable. Obi has pink eye.

Speaker 4 He's always getting something. So I had to go and get him from school.
Cause like when you have pink eye as a preschooler, you become an untouchable.

Speaker 4 Like, I think it's better to get COVID than pink eye at this point. Right?

Speaker 3 Do do children know that they have

Speaker 3 these issues do they even remember oh yeah no they know they're disgusting okay

Speaker 4 so now obi's like running around trying to put his eyes on everyone because he knows oh jesus

Speaker 4 yeah so they're like very self-aware i was thinking more like remorse No, no, no, no. He was like,

Speaker 4 I want you to have eyes like me, mommy. I'm like, no, I don't want to have green stuff coming out of my eye.
Stupid American. Yeah, it's another thing that he's American, which is very weird.

Speaker 4 I have an American child.

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 4 It's very strange to have like an, I didn't think I'd have an American child.

Speaker 3 That's fascinating. I just assumed your child was spoke like you and now I'm like, oh no, you haven't.

Speaker 4 Sometimes he does when he wants something. He's like, mommy, can I have chocolates?

Speaker 3 And he doesn't.

Speaker 3 Which is like, I don't sound like Peppa Pig.

Speaker 4 And my husband's like, you do.

Speaker 3 Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 4 So they know.

Speaker 3 Well, I'm glad you're here with us now. I'm glad you're alive.
I'm glad I'm here too. This is good.
This is good.

Speaker 3 I'm happy for everyone.

Speaker 3 Welcome to the episode, everybody, and welcome to everybody listening. We got a fun show today.

Speaker 3 I should say interesting, because not everything about it will be fun, but I think the conversations around it will be fun.

Speaker 3 I always have fun having conversations, regardless of how difficult they are. And for today's episode, you know, I think there's one big topic that we really need to get into.

Speaker 3 And it involves the stabbing that took place in Australia a few weeks ago, which,

Speaker 3 you know, everyone agrees is a really, really sad story that I think added a little more texture to to

Speaker 3 you know mass violence in a way that that other stories oftentimes can't or don't um so we'll be chatting about that as well but first i want us to jump off with a few um a few of the fun stories just like the light stories that i think everyone should be uh should be aware of my favorite one easily easily easily is um you're both aware of um

Speaker 3 the Amazon stores that were launched where you could walk into a store, pick everything everything up, put it into a basket and leave without paying. You both remember this, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Because it felt like a trap.

Speaker 3 It did, Josh. I remember you saying this, by the way.
It did feel like a trap.

Speaker 5 As a black man in America, it would be like, no, just go in. Just grab whatever you want.
Just walk out.

Speaker 5 See what happens.

Speaker 3 See what happens. But

Speaker 3 yeah, and it was amazing technology. You know, Amazon was like, hey, guys, this is it.
This is the future. This is AI.

Speaker 3 And a lot of people were angry, obviously, because they felt like this was another example of jobs being taken away from people.

Speaker 3 Well, I have good news for the jobs people and bad news for the AI people. It turns out

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 it was the team of about a thousand people in India who were hired to just watch customers shop and review their transactions. AI stood for all Indian, and it was just

Speaker 3 a thousand Indian people watching you in a store, and then they would just basically do all the hard work. So, you know, all those people who are like, AI is going to kill us.
No, AI won't kill us.

Speaker 3 A few people from India will kill us because they've been hired to kill us.

Speaker 3 Oh, wow.

Speaker 4 The thing I do like about Amazon is it's like they are villains and kind of just embrace being villains. Do you know, like, they're like, there's no pretense with them at all.

Speaker 4 They're like, oh, yeah, we mess with our competition and we just hire people in India. And then if you confront us about it, we're like, oh, you're lying.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 Like, it's just like they are just owning being the bad guy, which is refreshing because most companies are like, oh, we're going to be good to the environment.

Speaker 3 They'll apologize. Yeah.
Other companies will apologize.

Speaker 5 They definitely fall. There's just two camps of

Speaker 5 PR and how people move after a scandal like this. There's the Amazon way and the Apple way.
Apple knows that they're no longer giving us such a good product that we'll shut up.

Speaker 5 They know they changed the plugs too many times. They know that the phone is slow.

Speaker 5 They know they got to apologize because they're like, y'all, y'all, okay. Because they know they can't double dip.

Speaker 5 You can either have a bad product and make us feel good about using it, or you can make us feel good about, you know what I mean? Like, yeah,

Speaker 3 or you have a good product and you don't care about how it works. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5 And Amazon is like, you caught us, and what you gonna to do about it?

Speaker 5 Because I bet you you still want those trays in two days. Those trays you order, if you want them to get here quick, you're going to shut up, right?

Speaker 3 It's interesting. One of the only upsides of not having a permanent abode for myself, not having a home, has been the fact that I barely use Amazon anymore.

Speaker 3 I actually didn't realize how.

Speaker 3 Addicted to Amazon I was actually. I was ordering everything for no reason.

Speaker 3 I mean, like everything, everything.

Speaker 3 I would sit down on a chair and then I'd be like, ah, man, I wish I could, I wish I could put my feet on something that was also a screen for my books at the same time.

Speaker 3 And then I'd go on to Amazon and I'd be like, foot holder book screen device. And it would be there.
And I would order it and it would come to my house and I'd be like, yeah, this is great.

Speaker 3 Okay, so, you know, on the one, you want to talk about villains. Oh, this, this was a great story.

Speaker 3 This was, I mean, I say great, but please, for everyone listening, understand, I mean, you two know me.

Speaker 3 When I say great, sometimes it's not because it is good, it's just because it illuminates something that sparks conversation. So

Speaker 3 there is no denying that

Speaker 3 there's a lot of racism in hiring, right?

Speaker 3 But there is also no denying that a lot of the time, black people look crazy when they say there is racism in hiring. I think we all know different versions of what that feels like.

Speaker 3 Like I would often say to people, racism is a lot like

Speaker 3 it's like it's like an invisible bus,

Speaker 3 right? That only hits black people when they cross the road. And then all the white people who are with them are like, what happened to you? And they're like, you didn't see the bus?

Speaker 3 And they're like, there was no bus. I don't know why you always do this.
And you're like, there was a bus. The bus is the reason I couldn't walk across the road.

Speaker 3 And they're like, why didn't the bus hit me? And you're like, I don't know why the bus didn't hit you. And you feel like you're crazy.
Well,

Speaker 3 this was an amazing story. There was a study that was released, right?

Speaker 3 And essentially, what happened was these researchers came out and they'd released a study in 2021, like trying to figure out, like, you know, how do companies hire, why do they hire, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 3 But what they did was they applied to a bunch of companies and they basically generated resumes that were all exactly the same.

Speaker 3 However, the only thing they changed on the resumes was they changed the names. They changed the names to be like white names, quote unquote, you know, like Brock and Chad.

Speaker 3 And then the other ones, they chose like names that are considered really black, you know, and so they're like DeMar and like Kashanda and those types of names.

Speaker 3 And they submitted these applications to the same companies in the same manner at the same time.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 the results they got back were crazy.

Speaker 3 Basically, what they found was

Speaker 3 if you have a white sounding name, like the spread is 9% in your favor, and that you're more likely to get called in for the interview.

Speaker 3 But what was more interesting than usual in these studies, which you've seen before, is they broke it down by the companies.

Speaker 3 And it turns out, and maybe this is a little bit of good news, by the way, it turns out that the 9% wasn't evenly shared by every single company.

Speaker 3 So there were some companies where it was only like 3%, which is still not perfect, but it was only like 3%,

Speaker 3 right? But then there were some companies, and it was really interesting that they were particularly

Speaker 3 in like the field of like auto parts, right? It was like car parts, particularly in those fields, it was a 24% gap.

Speaker 3 So, if you had a black-sounding name, you were really up against it in getting an interview at these auto parts companies.

Speaker 3 And I mean, I, I, as I said, I said a great story, and what I mean by that is it vindicates a lot of people for sure.

Speaker 3 If you're going for a job interview,

Speaker 3 you should change change your name on the application is what I think.

Speaker 5 I mean, look, Josh Johnson is pretty much a win. That's a pretty much a great name.
That's a W outright.

Speaker 5 It's not until they see me, because even on the phone, on the phone, I give them what they're looking for.

Speaker 3 No, you're fantastic. I remember when we hired you on the daily show,

Speaker 3 I was like, like we looked through the submissions and we saw your writing and I was like, man, this guy's amazing. And I was like, he is really in touch with the black experience.
This is surprising.

Speaker 3 You don't normally see white writers who are this in touch with the black experience,

Speaker 3 you know. And I was like, Let's see this Josh Johnson person.

Speaker 3 And then you walked in, and I was like, Huh,

Speaker 3 you are the Josh Johnson, and

Speaker 3 then you started speaking. Then I was like, Oh no, this is the Josh Johnson,

Speaker 3 and uh

Speaker 3 Trevor,

Speaker 3 be careful now.

Speaker 4 Not too much on Josh.

Speaker 3 Not too much on Josh. No, but he knows.

Speaker 3 You know what's funny about this? So my mom, my mom had this.

Speaker 3 So I think one of the reasons my mom did as well as she did in life is because,

Speaker 3 I mean, like most black South Africans, we had what was, you know, the same way they say in America, like your government name and then like your name.

Speaker 3 And so in South Africa, you had a traditional name that was afforded to you by your tribe. You know, Christiana, you know what I'm talking about as well as Nigerians.

Speaker 3 But then you had like a biblical white name that you had to have because the government had no interest in learning names like nombuiselo and nkos nati and like you know nomatam sangwa.

Speaker 3 They were like, no, there's clicks in your names, and they're like, no. Like, I can imagine the apartheid government back then.

Speaker 3 They were just like, listen, you can have your name, but let's be civil and choose something that everybody can pronounce. Okay.

Speaker 3 So there's pops and clicks in your name. That's not going to work.
So they forced black South Africans to have a quote-unquote, you know, like white name. And so my mom's name is Patricia, right?

Speaker 3 But the interesting thing about it is like, I think, like you, Josh, my mom was really good at code switching on the telephone.

Speaker 3 And so whenever my mom would call for a job or for an interview or anything, she'd phone as Patricia. And then she'd speak on the phone.

Speaker 3 And she had like a very professional, still has a very professional sounding voice.

Speaker 3 Even with me, when I phone my mom, even though my name shows up on her phone, she'll answer in a very, very she'll be like she'd be like patricia speaking good afternoon how can i help you and i'm like hi mom and then she's like hello putty and it's like just switches immediately i'm like you know it was me all along she's like i i don't know who's calling me i don't know who's calling me i'm like my name is there but i i genuinely think sometimes

Speaker 3 maybe my family got like a 10 15 20 leg up just because my mom had a voice that you couldn't discern as black on the phone i i sometimes think about that i had no chance like mbakwe no mbakwe you see that

Speaker 3 they're like nigerian credit card fraud no she's not coming here

Speaker 3 like i just had no chance yeah mbakwe is like a like a full-on mbakwe like people hear your name and they're like wait is that like black panther yeah i never like

Speaker 4 my name always gives me away but I think we should just reclaim it.

Speaker 4 That's the new thing I'm in. Like, I gave Obi a very Ibbo first name because I was just like, if you're going to be the first Ibbo president of America, you need to have an Ibbo first name.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's, that was how I was doing. I was just falling on that.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I just think you should, because the problem is with my name is a problem because, like, the first name is Anglicized, and the second name is very, like, yes, Nigerian.

Speaker 4 And I'm just like, that throws people off. It makes them uncomfortable.
Like, pick a side. Like, Josh Johnson to me, perfect name.

Speaker 3 If you ever know a perfect name.

Speaker 4 Christianity in Backwood, what are we doing?

Speaker 3 Which is true.

Speaker 4 So I was just like, I'm just going to give him an ethnic first name because the names have meaning and history. And I'm just like, maybe I'll just have to bribe someone to give him a job.

Speaker 4 Like, just do it the old school way.

Speaker 3 So, you know, you know, what was great about this story was

Speaker 3 there have been many studies over the years that have shown that there is racial bias in hiring.

Speaker 3 But what was interesting about this study was they named and shamed the companies involved, like the auto dealers

Speaker 3 association or the retailers and car pots. And a lot of people had mixed emotions about this.
Some people were like, yeah, it's good to name and shame them.

Speaker 3 And then others are like, no, it's not good to do this because they might, you know, metastasize and those companies will become defense.

Speaker 3 I like I personally, I was like, yeah, you should, you should name and shame them. But I don't know, I don't know what the two of you think about this.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 5 I think naming is important because you also have to remember, out of all the companies that there are in the country, you're only naming a few.

Speaker 5 So it's not as if you're doing the sweeping thing of like, we're naming and shaming every single one of you and we're coming for you.

Speaker 5 It's like, I find that the greatest lesson is when you do dodge the bullet, where you, where the company gets named and you're a similar company. And now you're like, ooh, that could have been us.

Speaker 3 So you're basically saying

Speaker 3 you make an example out of them.

Speaker 5 Just, yeah.

Speaker 5 Especially if we're talking about so few. Like, it's not like this was a thing carried out across every company in one state.

Speaker 3 Josh wants to, you want to to break corporate kneecaps. That's what you want to do.
Easily, easily. Just a few.
Just go from one, you know, every every now and then. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Let them know what you're capable of.

Speaker 5 I think that naming is so important because you look, you look at any movement. And if there's somebody that's like almost like a beacon as an example of like, this is what this movement is after.

Speaker 5 This is the type of behavior that we don't like. Now

Speaker 5 you look at a Me Too and a Harvey Weinstein, right? It's like everybody that looks like Harvey Weinstein now got to be on their best behavior

Speaker 5 because they know what they look like.

Speaker 5 And so if they're, if they're on a beach, they're like, let me not do this to people. Let me go ahead and put on a suit at the beach.

Speaker 5 Let me go ahead and be nothing but cordial professional because you got to name them.

Speaker 3 Oh, boy.

Speaker 3 Oh, wow. What do you, um, what do you think about the

Speaker 3 well, not the burden per se, but I say it as a joke. And I know some people like get really offended.
Even some of my friends, I go, you know, they're like, oh, what do we do about this?

Speaker 3 If you have a black name, companies won't call you in for the interview. And then I say, like, I'm like, well, well, then you should just put fake names.
And then people are like, no, Trevor.

Speaker 3 How dare you even suggest them? And I understand where they're coming from. I'll be honest with you.
But I sometimes wonder if winning a battle is,

Speaker 3 how can I put it? Okay, I think of like the Trojan horse, right? The story of the Trojan horse. I'm sure there were some people who were like, like, this is dishonorable.

Speaker 3 We're going to creep into the belly of a wooden horse like a bunch of cowards to infiltrate this city.

Speaker 3 Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But then the question is, like, what are we seeking?

Speaker 3 And I'm not saying you can't do both, by the way, but I also wonder if there's some merit in sneaking and like getting the people in.

Speaker 3 If you know there's a, if you know, there's a shortcut or a hack to circumvent racism, should you take it?

Speaker 4 I think on the face of it, that may result in the job. But my thinking has always been like, if you're hostile to my name, you're definitely going to be hostile to my presence.

Speaker 4 Like, you think even if I, yeah, because I think that it's like it's indicative of something deeper. Like

Speaker 4 they're not afraid of black names. They're afraid of the possibility of black people or foreignness or otherness.

Speaker 4 And I can never fit what you want, like the ideal that you have in that company right like i'll give you an example of like at our show um a black woman that was hired and joined later said during her interview she saw me walking past and i had my afro out it's actually enid and enid was like oh i can work here oh that's a because the girls have natural hair and have their afro out and it that's a symbol like it's just it's just some hair but it sends a message and to me if like if a company culture or an institution is just resistant to the name like that means how are they going to feel when I show up with my braids or my natural hair or the actual, real, more quote-unquote, aggressive symbols of blackness?

Speaker 4 That's not somewhere I would want to be. But also, I know not everyone has that choice, right? People need jobs, Trevor.

Speaker 4 So, this is kind of like a very privileged take to be like, I don't want to work somewhere where they don't like Afro hair or they don't like black women.

Speaker 4 Other people, it's just like, I need a job, and your technique may be the thing they need to do.

Speaker 3 I, I, I completely agree with this, but I also sometimes wonder about the value of infiltration.

Speaker 3 And what I mean about this is, like, I think sometimes we take for granted, and you know, you and I, we always have these discussions.

Speaker 3 I'm an eternal optimist, and I know it's a utopian idea, and I know that it doesn't always pan out, but like, I think there's something magical that happens to human beings when they come into contact with other human beings who give them a real idea of what just one facet of that group of people could be like.

Speaker 5 Yeah. I mean, that's been most of my experiences, mostly because of my name, I really do believe, is that like, I've definitely had jobs where I looked around and I was like the only black person.

Speaker 5 And I've definitely shown up to places where people are like, you're Josh. And I'm like, yeah.
And they're like, oh, okay.

Speaker 5 Like, it's, it's, it's a, it's a thing that happens that I'm not saying I was like intentionally trying to infiltrate. I've never like hidden who I am or anything.

Speaker 5 But, you know, you go back to the analogy of the Trojan horse and what city burned that night.

Speaker 5 You know what I mean? You slip in with that horse and you got it. You're killing the game now.

Speaker 3 Oh, wow.

Speaker 3 Oh, man. All right.
Let's

Speaker 3 take a quick break.

Speaker 3 When we come back,

Speaker 3 let's jump into some of the bigger topics of the week that

Speaker 3 have really gotten people talking and like ask ourselves the question: can we have the conversations in society?

Speaker 3 Are we equipped to have the conversations necessary to deal with some of the more difficult issues that society is facing?

Speaker 3 My thought is

Speaker 3 Josh will figure it out.

Speaker 3 So,

Speaker 3 this story is

Speaker 3 a story that

Speaker 3 is terrible and has now left many of the people

Speaker 3 involved, directly or indirectly, asking questions

Speaker 3 about where society is headed, and particularly young men. But before we get into discussing it, I mean, let's try and get everybody on the same page.
So,

Speaker 3 there was a story that came out of Sydney, Australia, where

Speaker 3 a young man went into a shopping mall and just went on a stabbing rampage is the best way to put it.

Speaker 3 Like chased off the people in the mall, try to stab as many people as possible, stabbed six people to death, and then I think injured more than a dozen.

Speaker 3 And, you know, the police came in, they shot the kid dead.

Speaker 3 And immediately, obviously, the press went to you know the dad's house and they wanted to know. They're like, Hey, do you know why your son would go and kill a bunch of strangers?

Speaker 3 And it's one of the saddest videos you'll ever see because there's this Australian man, he's standing outside his house and he's addressing the crowd in a way that I've seen very few parents address a crowd when their child has been involved in something this terrible.

Speaker 3 And he says to them, He says, and I paraphrase, he says, I know to you he's a monster, but to me, he's my son. And I'm loving a monster.
I love my son.

Speaker 3 To you, he's a monster, but to me, he was a very sick boy. And then the dad goes on to say, They say, Do you know why he would have done this? And he says, Yeah, I do know why he would have done this.

Speaker 3 And he's like, Because he wanted a girlfriend and, you know, is really frustrated and he has no social skills. And then he talks about his son's mental health.

Speaker 3 And he says, When I found out my son had mental health issues, I dedicated everybody to serving him and I wanted to help him as much as I could.

Speaker 3 But, you know, my son moved away and he says, and then I couldn't help him the way I wanted to. And then, you know, this happened in Sydney.

Speaker 3 And I think the reason the story is so interesting is because

Speaker 3 where most times we can focus on the gun, which I think is necessary because the tool that people can use to do bad things should also be limited so that the effect of the bad things can be minimized.

Speaker 3 This conversation I find was a lot clearer and a lot more difficult and a lot more painful because it made us ask the question:

Speaker 3 Is there an epidemic amongst young men who

Speaker 3 feel that they cannot get with a woman, do not have a girlfriend, do not find themselves in loving relationships, are socially awkward, do not know how to connect with people of the opposite sex?

Speaker 3 And have we created a culture that isolates them? And is the internet the perfect fertilizer that grows them into angry men who believe the world has done them wrong?

Speaker 3 It's interesting, you know, Christiana and Josh, you are two of the people who I think have some of the most thoughtful

Speaker 3 ideas on this topic because we've spoken about it for years. But I, yeah, you know, I wonder, Christiana, when you first saw the story, like,

Speaker 3 what were some of your thoughts?

Speaker 4 I mean, the fact that five out of the six people that were killed were women was something I thought about a lot.

Speaker 4 One of them was a mother who protected her nine-month-old daughter, who he also stabbed. You know, it's like the

Speaker 4 particular details were very horrifying. And, you know, the police were immediately like, it's not terrorism, but I do believe it was an act of terrorism against women specifically.

Speaker 4 And we don't often think about like misogyny and the violent results of that as a form of terrorism.

Speaker 4 Like, and I feel like I'm a unique intersection, not just being a woman, but like a mother of a boy. And it was actually, Trevor and I have a friend and Josh called Joe Opio.

Speaker 4 When he, he was my office mate, and when he found out I was pregnant with a boy, he said, Christiana, you're raising a nuclear weapon.

Speaker 4 He was like, don't take your eye off the boy.

Speaker 3 Oh, man. That sounds like Joe.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 It was something that I always think about when I look at my song and how sweet and loving and caring he is. And I think a lot of boys lose that as they grow.

Speaker 4 And I think that lack of emotion only continues into adulthood. And it's something I really do think about.
I'm like, I do think that there is a crisis of masculinity.

Speaker 4 And I think that women are bearing the brunt of that crisis.

Speaker 4 And I actually don't know what the solution is.

Speaker 4 You know, there's so many men that sit at home on their computers all day. They actually don't have male friends, like a male community that they physically can see.

Speaker 4 And they just arrive in these dark places of the internet because that's the only place that they can be seen. And what's being seen is their anger and hurt.
And that's what they just lean into.

Speaker 4 So yeah.

Speaker 3 You know, I often wonder, and I know this is like a, it's like a crazy thing to say sometimes, and I don't think that I can articulate it perfectly, but I think it's worth speaking about nonetheless.

Speaker 3 We never consider the ramifications of moving from one system to another. rapidly.
You know, we used to live in a world where men would get a woman. Just think about that for a second.

Speaker 3 Men would just get a woman. Families would just go, my boy, I have found you a young lady and she's from the house of Heatherton and she will be your wife.
And you just had a wife.

Speaker 3 There's some cultures in the world that still do that. You are a boy, you become old enough and you get a wife.
It is done. It's there for you, right?

Speaker 3 We've lived in a world where for a long time, just being a man meant that you had a job because women were excluded from the workplace. And so the only people you were competing with were other men.

Speaker 3 And when when you look at all the changes we've made, very positive, by the way, very positive changes we've made, I don't think we've considered the ramifications of some of those changes and how they've affected men who now find themselves living a meaningless existence.

Speaker 3 You know, because we say job, but really

Speaker 3 job is just purpose. It's just meaning.
You know, I don't know if either of you have, you know, have thought about this. It's just like,

Speaker 3 like, how do we give somebody a purpose that maybe isn't a job or is there even a way to do that?

Speaker 5 I mean, I can't speak to the actual way, but based on what you're saying of purpose is no one needs any man in an American society, right? Okay. To be the old version of how men need it to be.

Speaker 5 Our bodies, though, don't know what year it is. And so the fact that there's no real war that you need to go fight and not war isn't as if we're not at war, because as Americans, we stay at war.

Speaker 5 We just do war over there.

Speaker 5 but we don't need to be at war we don't need to struggle the way that all of the built-up like hormones and testosterone in the body are telling you to struggle we also don't need um procreation in the same way like now marriages are you know mostly love marriages and people are very intentional about how many kids that they have.

Speaker 5 And I think that some of what we're seeing on a level that affects all men, because incel is like not just a white male thing or a white male attitude.

Speaker 5 It's something that I think affects a whole swath of young men.

Speaker 5 And I think that sometimes rightly, so I'm not saying this is bad, but they're sometimes being chastised to about a world that they are not taking part in in the same way.

Speaker 5 So a lot of times when people take the world to task, all the men that you're mad at already won.

Speaker 5 So you're right.

Speaker 5 I've had feminist friends talk to me about why we're so screwed up and the men that did and and everything. I'm like, yes, you're right about that.
But who you're talking about is a senator right now.

Speaker 5 They're not the dog walker that's 20 years old.

Speaker 3 That's interesting.

Speaker 5 And this is not to make, literally to not make excuses.

Speaker 5 It's to try to find somewhere in the conversation that is a through line and a path through to speak to men about what it is about being a man that still matters without getting into like the Andrew Tateness of the world.

Speaker 5 Because then

Speaker 5 that's the last piece of the puzzle. That's the problem.

Speaker 3 No, you know, it's funny. I completely agree with you.
And I think, so

Speaker 3 this is the thing I think we struggle with in society sometimes.

Speaker 3 If there is a group of people, regardless of who they are, if there are a group of people who feel left behind, who feel disconnected, as society, you can make the mistake of thinking that those people have no bearing on the rest of society.

Speaker 3 But time and time again, we've learned that those people at some point coalesce.

Speaker 3 And oftentimes the coalescing takes place at the behest or like, you know, under the guidance of somebody who's like wielding that pain for good.

Speaker 3 You can go through history and you can see it time and time and time and time again.

Speaker 3 And I think that's like a crucial, crucial thing for us to think about in society.

Speaker 3 And if you apply that back to the world of men, young men who are angry, Sometimes these young men aren't supporting people like Andrew Tate and chasing after these these internet influences who are misogynistic.

Speaker 3 They aren't going with them because they necessarily think they'll make their lives better.

Speaker 3 They relishing the fact that those people are actively making women's lives or successful men's lives or who have making their lives worse. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 4 Oh my God, I could speak about this all day because I've read a lot about it.

Speaker 3 By the way, for those who don't know, you know, because I didn't know when these topics first came up, Intel

Speaker 3 is the name given to a group of young men who some have called themselves this and it's become a group thing, but really the full term is involuntarily celibate. That's what incel really is, right?

Speaker 4 The funny thing is like feminists care a lot about this.

Speaker 4 Like, I know there's this like idea that like feminists completely hate incels and talk down to them, but like a lot of feminist theory in like modern day is trying to address this need because we don't want these men to kill us.

Speaker 4 It's just like self-interest. There's that.
Yeah. Josh, you spoke about like kind of like this, like very primal and primordial urge men have to like dominate, like just testosterone.

Speaker 4 You have to do something with that energy.

Speaker 4 What these feminist scholars talk about a lot is the fact that, like, unfortunately, men aren't prepared for the information age we're in, where it's all about intellect.

Speaker 4 It's not about brute strength. Like, the men who have made it, who are at the top of the totem pole, they're like the nerds, right?

Speaker 3 It's the age of the nerd.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Yeah.
It's like Mark Zuckerberg. It's Jack Dorsey.
Like, men aren't prepared for this new world where it's like, we don't care if you can lift 200 pounds.

Speaker 4 We do care if you can code and use your mind in a very abstract way.

Speaker 5 Yeah, exactly. Because like a Tom Hardy, ooh, he is very lucky he can act.

Speaker 3 Exactly.

Speaker 3 But you know, you know, to that point, Christiana, it's I think it's like a combination of what you and Josh are saying.

Speaker 3 I think on the one hand, yes, it's talking about preparing men for a world where it isn't all about their strength. But I also think we take for granted the fact that we are still animals.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 So for instance, you look at schools and how much they've pulled back on physical activity. Oh, of course.

Speaker 3 And I often think to myself, what was the value of me as a child having lessons in school where the lesson was I have to run around and chase other kids and catch a ball and like wrestle other children?

Speaker 3 It seems so stupid and yet it's like functionally part of you being you. Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 5 Exactly. It's like even down to the way that you would train a dog, right? You want a puppy to be around other puppies and to wrestle and to learn how to nibble on them.

Speaker 5 Because a puppy who has bit and been bit by other puppies who are teething becomes a dog that knows how to gently nibble when you go to feed it. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Also, there was like, I've been like taking those and stuff. I'm such a nerd.
But I, so, you know, the dad said something. He was just like, he just wanted a girlfriend.

Speaker 4 And, you know, the discussion around that is very controversial, right?

Speaker 4 Cause he was so heartbroken by it. And he was just speaking off the cuff.
Like the feminist, womanist part of me is just like, no man is entitled to a girlfriend. Like no man is entitled to a wife.

Speaker 4 But it's really interesting if you read about like the Tinder studies and I'm botching what the statistics are, but it's basically like 10% of men match to 80% of women. Yes.

Speaker 4 So basically women have a particular type.

Speaker 3 Oh, you're going to get into something. You're going to get into a topic that I love.
Oh, wait. No, I love this.

Speaker 4 Keep going.

Speaker 4 Even when we're talking about like sex, like when we talk about quote-unquote body counts, like a huge percentage of women sleep with a small percentage of men. Like that's just the reality.

Speaker 4 Like a lot of men cannot and do not get laid.

Speaker 4 Now, we can discuss why that is, but we should acknowledge that there are like implications to that about how these men feel about women, about the world, and about themselves.

Speaker 4 And Trevor, you mentioned earlier about like the arranged marriage. And I think very much in like an African system.
I remember my first visit to the village when I was like 13 years old.

Speaker 4 And there was one of my dad's cousins. He's sadly dead now, but he was deaf, but he had a wife.

Speaker 3 And I remember saying to my mum, like,

Speaker 4 how did it like, and mind you, in Nigeria, you have to understand it was just like, it wasn't like this evolved thinking about deafness and disability. It was like, it's a very ableist culture.

Speaker 3 And my parents were like, of course he has a wife. They found a woman for him.

Speaker 4 And I was like, like, oh, I was like, how did he date? Because like he, he struggled with language and stuff like that.

Speaker 4 I'm sure if he was in the West, he probably would have got the right therapy and maybe been able to speak. And like, my mum and dad were like, no, in our culture, we believe everyone deserves a wife.

Speaker 4 And as problematic as there is, and we can discuss that on a different level, the thing about arranged marriages, it meant that like nobody was alone, right?

Speaker 4 It meant that everyone was considered worthy of companionship and partnership. But now we have this world where women, for themselves, because they have the right to, are deciding who is worthy.

Speaker 4 And it's a very small slither of people who are seen as worthy. And the rest of the men essentially feel thrown away.

Speaker 4 I really don't know. But the statistics do show that, like, most, and I'm a very picky woman.
Like, if my husband dies, that's it. I'm not marrying anyone else.
I'm done.

Speaker 3 I'm done.

Speaker 4 This is the best man for me. But it's just like a lot of men can actually not be in a relationship with women.

Speaker 3 We'll be right back after this.

Speaker 3 So, okay, so this is, this is,

Speaker 3 it's funny that all three of us have been obsessed with this topic, but like have focused on a specific area of it, you know, on its own, whilst overlapping with the other ones in the Venn diagram.

Speaker 3 So I've thought about about this topic as it pertains to globalization specifically. So you know me, I love tech.
I love, love, love technology.

Speaker 3 And the thing I'm constantly thinking about with technology is what are the benefits of technology?

Speaker 3 And then what are the downsides that we neglect to think about when we're thinking about the benefits?

Speaker 3 So I think of this issue as a tech slash transport slash globalization slash everything issue that we haven't considered.

Speaker 3 I don't know if you've ever looked at a chart of technology and how much it has evolved in the history of humankind.

Speaker 3 But if you look at it from like, let's say this point to this point, let's say this is the beginning where human beings started, and this is where we are today, right?

Speaker 3 So this is 2024 and this is like whatever, 100,000 years ago. Almost all technology is here.
I'm talking like cars, phones, you know, trains, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 3 But then human beings started here, right?

Speaker 3 And what I think about when I look at this gap is I go:

Speaker 3 the one thing we have to acknowledge about technology is that it is able to evolve faster than we as humans actually can.

Speaker 3 Now, extrapolate that, Christiana, to what you were saying about men and women.

Speaker 3 We do know the downside, as you said, the downside of living in a society where we give women to men is that while it may be great for the men in that they don't have to like look for women, many women were in abusive relationships, many women were trapped, many women were prisoners, and so in a way we were putting the burden of, you know, men's frustration on women.

Speaker 3 But the thing we, I think we've taken for granted that we never considered, to your point, with, you know, 80% of the women dating 10% of the men, we never considered how like the limitations of choice sort of made everything work out for people.

Speaker 3 But I think what we've just taken for granted right now is these technologies have funneled people in unnatural ways.

Speaker 3 So to your point, on an app, and I know this from personal experience, I've been on a dating app where I am in New York City. That's where I am.
And I tell the app, I'm in New York City.

Speaker 3 No joke, the app will be like, look at this lady in Thailand.

Speaker 3 Now, as Trevor, I would have never considered this lady in Thailand. I didn't even think about dating somebody in Thailand, but it's like, hey, what about this lady in Thailand?

Speaker 3 And then I'm like, well, I mean, I mean, maybe she looks like a lovely lady. And it's like, link.
But now, do you get what I'm saying? It's created like a weird,

Speaker 3 it's an artificial connection that has like robbed society of its ability to balance itself out. Yeah.
People sit online all day and see people that they think they can date when in fact they cannot.

Speaker 3 But that affects their ability to choose people who they actually can date. And so you live in a perpetual cycle of I should be, I could be, I would be, and so I'm not.

Speaker 4 Also, can I just say, the men are doing the same thing, by the way. Yeah.
I know plenty of women who are like, I'm struggling to meet men because they see me and I'm a normal person.

Speaker 4 I don't have a face full of Botox and filler, which is completely fine. I'll probably get there myself one day.
But they're like, these men see me and I'm not good enough for them, you know?

Speaker 3 So we're all living in a world where we are strangely not good enough for each other because we've been exposed to a few that nobody can actually get.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Like, I think to what Christiana said, I do think just because I have had experiences with friends and like you've even mentioned, Trevor, I'm like on the internet in a very particular way and have been since I was a teenager.

Speaker 5 So, I've made, I've made friends that I still have never met in person, right?

Speaker 5 And, and I've watched the change in some people that were maybe going to go down that route and then veered off of it because they made a connection with someone. So, I'm

Speaker 5 not lost on me everything that Christiana is saying because I think it is right and it is representative of a good portion of these people, right?

Speaker 5 So, as far as the entitlement, I do think that there are two things that, and these, look, I will not be offended if you need to cut this because I would be heartbroken if somebody mistook my words right now.

Speaker 5 But I think in a way where if you cannot find, and this actually applies to both men and women, so maybe I'm covered, but if you cannot find a romantic partner in your life, it is seen as a fault and a failing on you, and there's something wrong with you.

Speaker 5 Whereas

Speaker 5 the most important relationships you'll ever have in your life are relationship with your parents, relationship with a romantic partner, and the relationship with your friends.

Speaker 5 And I think that we need to start looking at all these three relationships as things that are not directly in a person's control at all times.

Speaker 5 Because if you saw an orphan, you wouldn't be like, you must suck because you don't have parents.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 what vibes were you putting out as a baby to make two people leave? Wow.

Speaker 3 You know what I mean? Yeah.

Speaker 5 In earnest, yes, there are a lot of guys that are exactly what you two are talking about, where it's like they are the dude that doesn't work out, but but has all of the comments ready on women's bodies and stuff.

Speaker 5 And then there are people that I promise you, whether it's something on the mental side, something on the social anxiety side, something even in the opportunity side of things, have not been able to make those connections that I think do need a bit more of

Speaker 5 a compassionate mindset in that

Speaker 5 let's really figure out the story of why this person

Speaker 5 has not found anyone. But I think that that the not having found it yet being a strike against you only hurts the confidence, only increases the anxiety, and only ostracizes a person more

Speaker 5 from doing that thing.

Speaker 4 Josh, I'm glad you say that because, you know, I think about you a lot because you were one of the first people

Speaker 4 that

Speaker 4 made me have compassion for incels. In a way, I was

Speaker 5 humanizing them.

Speaker 4 Not compassion.

Speaker 3 I don't mean this.

Speaker 4 Not because you are an incel.

Speaker 3 Until I met you, Josh. I didn't understand.

Speaker 3 You could have gone down the road.

Speaker 4 No, no, no. I think, Josh, what you did is a thing that

Speaker 4 I can do in my self-righteousness, a side of myself that is not good. That when I disagree with someone's moral position, I actually dehumanize them.
And I treat them like an other and I dismiss them.

Speaker 4 And you are one of the first people that was able to discuss incel culture in a really nuanced way and talk about like the profound sense of like male isolation.

Speaker 4 You helped me understand that and I appreciate you for it, especially now I'm raising a boy.

Speaker 4 Because I think like my son is similar to my husband and similar to my father. I think naturally he's kind of like a loner.
He wants to be by himself.

Speaker 4 So we have to always pull him in to being with us and being with friends. And I think that

Speaker 4 a lot of people think the salve to incel culture is these men perhaps having girlfriends and being entitled to girlfriend.

Speaker 4 I actually think these are men that lack community, and we are very okay with men not having community.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 So I think a lot of these men actually need a community of other men that's not online that's going to radicalize them.

Speaker 4 They actually need friends because I don't think your joy and fulfillment in life should hinge on whether you have a romantic partner or not.

Speaker 4 And I think it's actually so sad that so many men do think that this is where their true value can be found because they have so much to offer beyond that. So, I do actually have compassion for them.

Speaker 4 And I do think I agree with you that when we see a man who is single and chronically single, it society puts a strike against him in a certain way. That I think those men absorb that pain.

Speaker 4 And my sadness is that women, we bear the brunt of that.

Speaker 4 And I, I, as a woman, I do feel afraid of men because especially since the pandemic, where a lot of men were, they were socially distancing all alone. They were by themselves for over a year.

Speaker 4 No one came over. You know what I mean? They were just by themselves.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And then one of the big questions is: how much

Speaker 3 does society, you know, to Josh, what you were saying about like the baby, how much does society bear the blame?

Speaker 3 And I wouldn't dare to blame the people who were attacked in what happened in Australia. I would never say that.
And please don't misconstrue it that way.

Speaker 3 But one of the more interesting things that we've noticed in the last, you know, few months was the parents of the shooter in the US.

Speaker 3 They were sentenced to 10, 15 years in prison, each, found guilty of manslaughter because of their actions surrounding their child.

Speaker 3 And that made me wonder, I was like, well,

Speaker 3 what are we saying in society? Are we saying that parents are responsible for the actions of their children? Or are we saying all people are responsible for the actions of the people around them?

Speaker 3 And, you know, Josh, I know you've thought about this. I know you, you know, I know we constantly hope to find solutions.

Speaker 3 But before we wrap up, I just wondered if there was like one, one thing you could change, like magic wand.

Speaker 3 And I mean, other than other, and I mean like realistic magic wand, not like inventing people who love you, which would be magical. It would be great.
That's what we need to invent.

Speaker 3 A dating app that just actually connects you to people who like you for who you are.

Speaker 3 What would you change, Josh? What's one thing you think you would change that would have an outsized impact in this world that would not just just benefit men, but as Christiana says, benefit women?

Speaker 5 I, I, like, as much of a maybe non-answer after the conversation we've had, it might feel, is

Speaker 5 a prioritization above anything else, even, even for your parents as they're raising you of community.

Speaker 5 I think that so much of how we get raised as people is like, you be a good person, you get a good job, you, you know what I mean?

Speaker 5 Whereas it's like, if, if I was a parent, at least right now, looking at the world the way it is and as chronically online as I am, if I had a kid, I'd be like, find

Speaker 5 your people above all else because your people will take care of you. Your people will let you know when you're going off on the wrong path.
Your people will, you know what I mean?

Speaker 5 Like you surround a person with nothing but good people. They almost, in a weird way, they almost can't do too much wrong.
in a sense.

Speaker 3 I think good, yeah, good being the opportunity word. Yeah.
Because the problem is people are finding the communities who do the opposites.

Speaker 3 Yes, yes, exactly.

Speaker 3 I like that actually. That's great.
I like that. Christiana, as a as

Speaker 3 the mother of a potential nuclear weapon.

Speaker 3 I can't believe Joe said that.

Speaker 4 I know, Joe is scared. I know.

Speaker 3 Joe is a legend. One day we must get him on the podcast so he can terrify.

Speaker 4 We need to get him on, yeah, right?

Speaker 4 I think it would creating a society where we raised our boys to be more vulnerable,

Speaker 4 where we welcome their vulnerability, where we didn't tell them, oh, you be tough, don't cry, and all of that stuff.

Speaker 4 Because at the core of all of these incels, these people that kill and even rape and do these really horrible things, we know it's about power. That's what they crave, that they crave power.

Speaker 4 And I think they crave power because they're scared, right?

Speaker 4 And they're afraid to say they're scared. So they do these very violent and debased things.
But if we're raising boys, particularly in their teenage years and be like, oh, it's okay to cry.

Speaker 4 It's okay to say you're sad. It's okay to say you're depressed.

Speaker 4 It would be better for all of us because then that man can say, hey, I'm scared, rather than being ashamed of that fear and going out and being violent to prove he's super matchup or a scared person.

Speaker 4 That's what I would probably do.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I like both of those.

Speaker 3 You know, as we move to wrap this up, and I say wrap this up with a, with a tiny little asterisk, I think we should try and

Speaker 3 have a series of episodes on the podcast where we delve into this one topic, because I think at the heart of it, honestly, and that's why I come back to church,

Speaker 3 you should never take for granted the value of feeling seen,

Speaker 3 just feeling like you are seen. And there was something magical for me, at least, I don't know about for you, but for me growing up, there was something magical about this church place where

Speaker 3 you just, you were seen. You know, kids went to a Sunday school, adults went to the main church, Jesus was for everyone, people came in nice cars and trash cars.

Speaker 3 And while there are many downsides to, you know, what people have used religion for, I wish we could find a way to continuously create the community of church that just helps people be seen regardless of where they are in the world and in their lives.

Speaker 4 Oh my God, Trevor, you sound like my mom. She literally called me like two hours ago, like, when are you going to find a church?

Speaker 3 This was really great. And,

Speaker 3 you know,

Speaker 3 I know it's weird to say this sometimes, but

Speaker 3 if anybody listens to this and feels like they're not seen or they're struggling, I will tell you as somebody who lived a lot of my life alone,

Speaker 3 you know, similar to Josh, that it's strangely,

Speaker 3 how can I put it?

Speaker 3 Although you may be alone,

Speaker 3 in many moments, you'll be shocked at how many people are having the exact same experience that you're having. And if you

Speaker 3 use the tools that are at your disposal, you'll be shocked at how you can connect with those people and find the things that make you feel less alone. For me, it was technology.
It was video games.

Speaker 3 And then it was music and DJing. And then some of my best friends now come from playing soccer, you know, just a pickup game.

Speaker 3 Found a few guys in a park, kicked a ball with them, and now we've traveled the world together and we're best friends. You know, we've been robbed of that online, I think.

Speaker 3 We've been told that the likes and the follows are the real things.

Speaker 3 But I think we should never take for granted the value of going out, doing something, and finding the people who want to do that thing with you. And a thing that makes you feel good.

Speaker 3 And we know the difference. So

Speaker 3 yeah,

Speaker 3 this was a really good conversation. I hope we do more of it.
And

Speaker 3 hopefully not only in the wake of like a tragedy that's happened somewhere in the world. Yeah, for sure.
This is great.

Speaker 3 What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions and Fullwell73.

Speaker 3 The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Ben Winston, Stanaz Yamin, and Jodi Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle.
Marina Henke is our producer.

Speaker 3 Music, Mixing and Mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening.
Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now.