Meet Khaya Dlanga – One of My Favorite People [VIDEO]

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Speaker 2 By the way, can I just say, Yeah, if you listened to this podcast and you had ideas about Africans, what I love about Kaya is he really makes you feel like you're talking to an African

Speaker 2 because it's like, what's his name? Kaya Danga. And then he's like, Then my friend Olisa Jeschanna crashed into my car, and my other friend, Unsinga.

Speaker 2 Then someone listening is like, Oh, wow. And what's the dull child again?

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Oh, this is a dull child.

Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 mean? Like Kaya is full on, full on. Like anyone listening to this is like, yeah, this is, oh my god, this is really African.

Speaker 5 This is African.

Speaker 2 This is so African right now.

Speaker 5 Shown them like pictures of me in the village.

Speaker 2 Kaya Danga,

Speaker 2 one of my favorite human beings on the planet.

Speaker 2 He's a writer, social commentator, social media superstar, But most importantly, and truly this is the most important, he's my friend.

Speaker 2 We've been friends for over 20 years now and Kaya Langa is easily one of the smartest, funniest, and interesting human beings I know. And so, I thought, why not have him on the show?

Speaker 2 I mean, if you're going to have a podcast, you want to share the most interesting people, right? And that's what today's episode is all about. One of my favorite people in the entire world, Kaya.

Speaker 2 Klanga. I think you're going to enjoy him as much as I do, but bad news, he's my friend, so you can't have him.
Oh, and that random South African voice you hear in the background?

Speaker 2 That's Ryan, South African producer. Don't mind him, but really you should.

Speaker 2 This is What Now

Speaker 2 with Trevor Noah.

Speaker 2 What happened to you, by the way? What was going on on with your Uber driver?

Speaker 5 Got into this Uber,

Speaker 5 started chatting. The guy's German, this German driver.
So he's speaking, he's driving us. And like, oh,

Speaker 5 so start chatting, oh,

Speaker 2 where do you work?

Speaker 5 He works for, he is like an MD or something at Merrill Lynch. Like a.
Wait, wait, what? I know.

Speaker 2 Your Uber driver. Our Uber driver was like an like was or was was was currently

Speaker 2 at the time? At the time, yes.

Speaker 5 Like a massive executive position, you know. And I was like, so was that, I was like, dude, what, what, like, explain what's going on here.

Speaker 5 And he says, no, you know, when I come from Germany, I decide that in order for me to improve my English, I'm going to become an Uber driver.

Speaker 2 Oh, you're lying.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I'm going to become an Uber driver, and then I'm going to, please excuse my closer German accent.

Speaker 2 I've actually never heard one before. This is really dope.

Speaker 2 It sounds like a new character in the next Black Panther.

Speaker 2 They have a German character.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 as a strength of their Black Panther.

Speaker 5 So this guy, and he's like, that's what he does now. And in order to improve his English.
And then it says, but what he also found was that he got to understand nuances about Americans.

Speaker 2 Because he was an Uber driver.

Speaker 5 Yeah, he could make sign within the, you know, for his job.

Speaker 2 I was like, oh, wow.

Speaker 5 That was for me the most.

Speaker 2 That actually makes sense.

Speaker 5 Very interesting.

Speaker 2 I mean, I think there's an easier way to do it.

Speaker 2 But I mean, hey, man, kudos to him. Maybe.
Not many people earn money from their English lessons.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay.
You know what I mean? Yeah, maybe. That's like a pretty slick way to do it.
Yeah, it's a good efficiency. Yeah, it really is.
I always wanted to be an Uber driver. That was my dream.

Speaker 5 But you've been a taxi driver.

Speaker 2 True. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But I wanted to be an Uber driver. Why?

Speaker 2 So I love driving. You do? So, okay, here was the limitation.

Speaker 2 So the limitation of being a taxi driver in South Africa is, and for those listening, if you don't understand, taxis in South Africa are different to taxis in most parts of the world in that here, when we say taxi, we mean like a mini bus that travels on a predetermined route.

Speaker 2 So, for me, it felt a little restrictive. I couldn't turn wherever I wanted to turn.
I couldn't like, you know what I mean? I want to be free, Kaya. I want to be doing my thing, man.

Speaker 2 Like a taxi. So, I've always wanted to.

Speaker 5 My former driver was free, but it wasn't taking me away.

Speaker 2 That's who I I wanted to be. I wanted to be the guy backing up on the highway.
No, I don't know why. I always wanted to be like a, you know what it also is? Okay, I love driving.

Speaker 2 And I also like

Speaker 2 efficient driving. I don't know how to explain it, but I love the idea of getting people to the place they're supposed to be in the best way possible with the least stress possible.
Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 You know?

Speaker 5 So far.

Speaker 2 Do you like driving?

Speaker 5 I love driving. One of my favorite things to do is to drive.
It's quite far. So I really do enjoy driving from Joburg to the Eastern Cape by myself.

Speaker 2 You know, I thought your answer was going to be no because of how many accidents you've had.

Speaker 5 But I haven't had many accidents.

Speaker 2 How many accidents have you had?

Speaker 5 Maybe two.

Speaker 2 Maybe two. Yeah.

Speaker 5 In fact, the first accident I had was a taxi driver hit me. Okay.
But there was, and the second one was also another taxi driver in Cape Town.

Speaker 2 Bro, how are you forgetting you crashing into the back of Kolisa's car? Funny.

Speaker 5 Oh, yeah. Okay, I don't count that.

Speaker 2 This guy only counts accidents that happened to him. Yo, right, let me tell you what.
Let me tell you what Kaya did. What Kaya did, right?

Speaker 2 Kaya had just got a car. Your first car was a Mercedes-Benz C-class.
This guy had never driven in his life.

Speaker 2 How old is he?

Speaker 5 How old are you then? I'm like 31, 32.

Speaker 2 That's the first time you drove. Yes.
Okay.

Speaker 2 This is the first time this guy drives. So, you even had the three accidents in half the amount of time.

Speaker 2 That's what you're saying.

Speaker 5 Basically. Okay.
I made up for it. Just checking.

Speaker 2 So, so Kaya gets a Mercedes-Benz C-Class first car, right?

Speaker 2 Him and Olisa are driving. They're going to some party somewhere.
Olisa's also got a brand new car, Mercedes-Benz E-Class. Yeah, convertible.
Convertible.

Speaker 2 Two of them driving together, having a good time. Music going, ladies loving the drive.
Hey, hey, good time, good time. What happens? Next thing, we just get a message in the group chat.

Speaker 2 Ah, guys, we had an accident. So, like, who's we, me and Kaya? And we're like, ah, but you guys are in different cars.
He's like, yes, she's like, exactly.

Speaker 2 So, it turns out, Kaya drove straight into the back of Colista.

Speaker 2 Oh, man.

Speaker 5 And what Claudisa always forgets to mention is the fact that he brake suddenly because he was,

Speaker 5 there was someone in the passenger seat was directing him. And she forgot to tell him, no, turn here.

Speaker 2 So he brake, like, oh, so he slammed the brakes.

Speaker 5 He slammed the brake.

Speaker 2 But you went to say, following this thing.

Speaker 5 But also, like, okay, the car had dystronic what?

Speaker 2 Oh, Oh, your car. Yeah.
Oh, so you trusted the car to do the thing. Okay.

Speaker 5 And it always did. But the problem.

Speaker 2 Can I tell you?

Speaker 5 That's your mistake. Can I tell the problem? One is that three days before, it had said dystronic malfunctioning.

Speaker 2 Take it.

Speaker 2 I should go take it. And I was like,

Speaker 2 I was like, I'll take it.

Speaker 5 I'll take it tomorrow. I kept saying tomorrow.
And then I had the accident.

Speaker 2 So. Yeah.
And then did you take it? Well,

Speaker 2 you know what I would have done if I was you? I would have taken it to the dealership and been like, guys, what happened here? This thing didn't stop. I had the district on and it didn't stop.

Speaker 2 That's what I would have done.

Speaker 5 Yeah, so those are my accidents.

Speaker 2 I'm assuming the insurance paid out because now you're admitting to things

Speaker 2 from which you're accounting. The insurance paid out.
Oh, okay. It did.
No, but I mean, that's still, that's still you insured for. Yeah, I'm trying to break, but it was too late to break.

Speaker 5 Yeah, and it's an accident. That's what you get insured for.
Yes. An accident, you know.

Speaker 2 But not negligence. Yeah, not negligence.
Well, that's what you get insured for in countries where the insurance pays.

Speaker 2 In America, actually, how is there car insurance there do we know in america yeah i have no idea because i mean i know like health insurance as we know luigi has shown us it's not great yeah and then fire insurance we saw what happened in california yeah where they like started pulling it from people which by the way i still think is one of the greatest scams in life right is that insurance companies can pull out of a market because they're like we're not making money

Speaker 2 And no one seems to ask the question,

Speaker 2 is the purpose of your business to make money or to insure people?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 do you get what I'm saying? Yes. And look, I know, I know people be like, Yeah, but it's a business.
I'm like, no, no, no, but wait.

Speaker 2 But I'm saying, in terms of when we start with priority, the first thing

Speaker 2 it's interesting to me that insurance companies can pull out of markets because they're no longer going to make money.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Coke doesn't

Speaker 2 change the recipe if it's more expensive to make Coke in that area. That's what I mean.
They continue to make Coke. Their job is to make money from Coke.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but their job is to to make money from insuring people. They just go, no, it's no more longer.
But it's not that I move those clothes. Now we won't make as much money.

Speaker 2 Then I'm like, yeah, but you're supposed to insure people. Isn't the purpose of your business insurance?

Speaker 5 And also, like, isn't it like it's a bet, right?

Speaker 5 Because they say, because the whole thing, like, I remember, I don't know if I saw this already somewhere, was someone said the purpose of insurance, the company says, right?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 5 I bet you.

Speaker 5 your house won't catch fire. And you say, I bet you my house will, right? And so what you do is that, like, now you keep paying, right? Because as long as you don't catch any fire, you're bet.

Speaker 5 You're like, I've told you, I told you

Speaker 5 it's a bet. It's not.
And all of a sudden, now my house catches fire.

Speaker 2 The bet has come right.

Speaker 5 Yeah, the bet has come right. Now you have to pay me because I win.

Speaker 2 Now I have a totally different, exactly. A totally different idea.
Now that I have that idea, the next time I claim from insurance, I'm going to go into the offices cheering.

Speaker 2 Yes, I told you.

Speaker 2 I told you.

Speaker 2 I told you. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Whose house is this?

Speaker 2 Well, I don't have one in the world, but you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 I told you. Yeah.

Speaker 5 So I thought that was such a great concept describing what insurance is.

Speaker 2 I feel like all, it is a great concept. I feel like all,

Speaker 2 not all, I don't want to be broad.

Speaker 2 I feel like many businesses. in America and then it's starting to go around the world are now less focused on being a good business and more focused on making the money.
Oh, 100%.

Speaker 2 And I know some people would say, Yeah, but that's what business is. And I don't agree.
I don't think that's what business should be. I think it can be the byproduct of doing something well.

Speaker 2 Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

Speaker 5 Because,

Speaker 2 like, even to what you're saying with like Uber drivers and stuff,

Speaker 2 we love to blame the people who are delivering the food or driving us around, et cetera.

Speaker 2 But if we're honest about it, this is a byproduct of a company that's growing at an insanely rapid rate.

Speaker 2 And so then what all these companies do is they slowly over time reduce the qualifications that people need to become a driver.

Speaker 2 They, so in the beginning, I remember when like Uber started and all these things started, it was like, oh, you have to have this and your car has to be inspected in a certain way. And

Speaker 2 now you get into a car

Speaker 2 and you're just like, yo, man, how did you get to me?

Speaker 5 Exactly. No, but I mean,

Speaker 5 you know, I remember the first time. I don't know if any of anyone here remembers the first time they used an Uber app.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I remember the the first time i remember the very first time they were going to be launching uber in south africa and they invited me to the launch which was nice okay great and then because they knew you weren't a driver or

Speaker 5 i had you were driving by the city and so my car then happened like that week or two you know happened to go to a service so i took to a service and then i was like ah let me try this uber thing so i opened

Speaker 5 And I was like, oh my goodness, it showed me the guy's face, the registration, the car, how far he is. This was revolutionary to me.
I was like, this is incredible.

Speaker 5 And anyway, he arrived, he gets out of the car. There's only Uber blacks at the time.

Speaker 2 They used to open the door.

Speaker 5 And remember, they used to open the door for you.

Speaker 2 They had water and

Speaker 5 then they closed the door for you. And I was like, this is incredible.
I was so impressed by them.

Speaker 5 And to such an extent that I don't know if you know my friend Unzinga.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 So she sees me being dropped off at Cesar's

Speaker 5 Capello. Yeah, yeah.
I'm being dropped off. Uber driver comes out, opens the door.
So when she sees me, she says, Kaya, and she genuinely thought this, genuinely. She said, Kaya, are you a spy?

Speaker 5 And I'm like, so I was jokingly, I said, yeah, I mean, I'm a spy. And she believed this for the longest time.
No ways.

Speaker 5 Uber was so prestigious, so pristine that they've taken away all the nice things, but the price remains.

Speaker 2 But that's the business model. That's what all these companies have done.

Speaker 5 with capitalism.

Speaker 2 No, but that's what all these companies have done in the, especially from Silicon Valley, right?

Speaker 2 Their business model is grow as quickly as possible, get as much money as you can, scale as fast as you can, and then most importantly, decimate the competition.

Speaker 2 So you come in, you price the product way lower than the rest of the market. So that's what they did in most markets was they killed the taxi prices.

Speaker 2 So in New York, in London, in Germany, and other places, they did that. And then some cities fought back, you know.
And then once they own the market, then they start hiking the prices.

Speaker 2 And to make things worse, they start throttling the drivers.

Speaker 2 So now if you drive an Uber, there were many people who bought Ubers because they were promised like, oh, if I buy the car, I'm going to earn this much a year.

Speaker 2 They used to have like guarantees on billboards even. Let's say earn a minimum, guaranteed, a minimum of, and I think at the time it was like $75,000, $80,000 a year.
And then.

Speaker 2 Once they had enough capacity and they had a stranglehold on the market, then they started ditching drivers. You don't earn as much from a ride.
Surge pricing changes.

Speaker 2 The riders pay more. And now we're all dependent on it.
And this is why we should never allow monopolies to take place.

Speaker 5 You know, like the, it's interesting because businesses always have this

Speaker 5 grand philosophy about why it exists. There's no profits when you're looking at their vision statement as a company.

Speaker 2 No, nothing.

Speaker 5 But the ultimate reason they exist

Speaker 5 is to make a profit, not really to provide the best service that they claim they want to to provide.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think

Speaker 2 to be fair, many of the people who started these companies in Silicon Valley, I think believed in the beginning that they were setting out on a noble mission. I genuinely believe that.

Speaker 2 But bro, it's very hard to beat Wall Street. Oh, yeah, that's very true.
As soon as your company is a publicly listed company, all you're doing is trying to maximize shareholder value and that's it.

Speaker 2 Like your mission is no longer to your customers, your mission is to the shareholders, right?

Speaker 2 And so, I think fundamentally, it's like, hey, man.

Speaker 5 I mean, it's pretty sad because,

Speaker 5 you know, there's actually, there's a flip. Maybe I'll just switch off my phone.

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, you must switch off your phone. You're addicted to your phone.

Speaker 5 There is a great quote.

Speaker 2 You must switch off your phone. I'm glad we brought you here.
This is actually an intervention. This has nothing to do with.
My phone is on. I can Google for you.
What do you want to do?

Speaker 2 This is nothing to do with the. You thought this was a podcast.
We were just hosting an intervention to stop Kai from being on his phone. Yo, this guy, I checked his phone the other day.

Speaker 2 15 hours of screen time a day. Oh, my God.
I thought mine was bad. Guys, do you know how many hours are in a day?

Speaker 2 There's 24, in case you were wondering.

Speaker 5 Okay, I found it. What's the quote? The quote is by Carl Sagan.

Speaker 5 Let me just go quickly. Carl Sagan.

Speaker 5 Let me find. So I don't know if Carl Sagan is this like a physicist.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 he says, I have a forebiding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time, when the United States is a service and information economy, when nearly all manufacturing industries have slipped away to other industries, when awesome technological powers are in the hands of very few,

Speaker 5 and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues. when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or

Speaker 5 unknowledgeably question those in authority.

Speaker 5 When clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide almost without noticing back into superstitious darkness.

Speaker 5 The dumbing down of America, so this is not just about America, I think it's about the whole world, really.

Speaker 5 The dumbing down of America is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content and in the enormously influential media.

Speaker 5 The 30-second soundbite, thank goodness your podcast is way longer than that.

Speaker 5 Now down to 10 seconds or less, lowest common denominator programming, credulous representations, presentations, or pseudoscience and superstitions, but especially of a kind of celebration of ignorance.

Speaker 5 So, and he wrote this in 1995.

Speaker 2 So before we talk about the quote, can I just say, normally when people say there's a quote I love, what they mean is like, be or not to be. Yeah, it's normally like every dog has his day.

Speaker 2 That's what I thought the quote was going to be. This man just read us a chapter and said, you know, there's a quote that I love, guys.

Speaker 2 It's called Genesis from the Bible. It really was.

Speaker 2 So, okay, this is what,

Speaker 2 like, maybe I.

Speaker 2 I never really understood this about you because you are a paradox. For a person who loves social media as much as you do,

Speaker 2 you also love the antitheses of social media as much as you do. Do you know what I mean? Because you've written books

Speaker 2 and you read books, but you also have 15 hours of screen time.

Speaker 5 And that's terrible because I don't spend as much time reading as I used to.

Speaker 2 Oh, so it's affected you as well.

Speaker 5 Exactly. Because I don't read as much as I used to.
And I don't think that like reading like little snippets is not, I don't, because it doesn't delve into the

Speaker 5 subject matter.

Speaker 5 And this is, it's like, it's the same thing as watching something on TikTok where you get like, you know,

Speaker 5 pseudo-knowledge. Yeah, you know, where you kind of suddenly feel like, oh, I'm well-informed because, well, I found out that for the first time that actually the planets don't

Speaker 5 revolve in one,

Speaker 2 you know, it's an oval.

Speaker 5 But I don't know why that happens.

Speaker 2 But then, you know, I was worried when they said TikTok was going to be banned, but I was happy because I thought you would like live a new life.

Speaker 5 Actually, this year, I am, I am.

Speaker 2 Don't even finish that sentence. You're going to lie.

Speaker 5 I am trying

Speaker 5 to be actively to try and read more than I did.

Speaker 2 Okay. Yeah.
That one I can. I thought you were going to say something like, I'm going to use social media less.

Speaker 5 No, no, I definitely want to read it along. Did you guys know by the way?

Speaker 2 Don't read on your phone, but yeah. This guy, this guy is, you know, when you talk about like deeply entrenched in social media, Kayat Langa, the man I'm sitting opposite now, was the first African

Speaker 2 to have,

Speaker 2 correct me if I'm wrong, a million views on YouTube. Yeah,

Speaker 2 ever, guys,

Speaker 2 before, yo, before we knew what YouTube was as a thing.

Speaker 5 This is like maybe 2006, 2007.

Speaker 2 Yeah, this guy was like on YouTube and he was loving it and he was killing it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, man, that was. And why did you stop, by the way?

Speaker 5 It uh

Speaker 2 Twitter.

Speaker 2 Couldn't put your phone down.

Speaker 5 Also, you know, actually, actually, what happened as well was that I got asked to start writing columns. And so.
In newspapers. Yeah, in newspapers.
You really are.

Speaker 2 You're just asking me.

Speaker 2 Like old school, new school, old school. You're like, guys, I'm leaving YouTube.
Why? Oh, there's this new thing called a newspaper column.

Speaker 2 And I have to step into it, guys. Kaya, where are you going? Guys, it's the future.
Trust me now. These newspaper columns.
Ah, I think everyone in the world is going to be reading this.

Speaker 2 But Kai, you've got a million people on YouTube. Yes.

Speaker 2 But there's 22,000 on the newspaper who might want to hear what I have to say.

Speaker 2 What a grand decision.

Speaker 5 So literally, that's what happened. And I was like, oh, Flip, I have this, because I have to have an opinion about something this week.
Yeah. You know? And then

Speaker 5 I just didn't have the time.

Speaker 2 You know, maybe YouTube wasn't paying you at the time.

Speaker 5 Oh, no, they weren't.

Speaker 2 Actually, oh, yeah, there was no money on YouTube. YouTuber was paying you.

Speaker 5 And it took a long time for them to pay anyone outside of America.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, that's true.

Speaker 5 And then Africa came very, I was like, ah, okay, what's the point? I even got an email from Steve Chan, who was one of the co-founders of YouTube. Crazy.
So, because

Speaker 5 there was this, because YouTube used to do this thing where if they thought a video was like incredible, they would put it like on the front page.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, they used to do like a featured video.

Speaker 5 When you were on the front page of YouTube, it was like a thing.

Speaker 5 You'd made it. And I was on the front page and I was like, wow, I wake up.
I'm getting all the subscribers.

Speaker 2 Boom, boom, boom, subscribers.

Speaker 5 I was like, what's going on? What's going on? And I happened to be and well, the first African, you know, to be featured.

Speaker 5 So I got an, and all these big YouTubers, obviously they see you, you've been featured. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They all start mailing you and they want to collaborate.

Speaker 5 And it was like this crazy freaking thing. And then Steve Chan sent me an email saying that,

Speaker 5 you know, it's some along the lines, it's so great to see people from other parts of the world contributing to the conversations and being creative in very different ways, you know,

Speaker 5 to Americans. And we love having you, you here.
And I've watched like a lot of your videos. And I was like, God damn.

Speaker 5 So I sent him an email and I was like, responded, wow, I was like, this is the first email I ever got from a billionaire.

Speaker 2 And that's all I had to say to him.

Speaker 5 And he's like, he's hardly a billionaire. Cause I think.

Speaker 5 I think they just sold to Google. I'm not sure.
But I think, or they were about to, but one of the two.

Speaker 5 So, I, yeah, so it was crazy that I just got an email from freaking Steve Chan. Oh, I like that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but your life is littered with that.

Speaker 2 You know, I was thinking the other day, I was like, you are,

Speaker 2 if someone, if someone was to ask me, they'd go, like, you know, who is Kaya or what is it about Kaya that fascinates you? Guys, people will always speak to Kaya

Speaker 2 as if they've always known you. They'll speak to you.
Like, you'll always find yourself in a conversation with a stranger.

Speaker 2 And I've always wondered, like, is that, is that how your life has always been? Or,

Speaker 2 or was that something you noticed or something? Is it something you worked on? Is it something?

Speaker 5 I don't think there's anything that

Speaker 5 I noticed until people said. So I didn't know it was a thing.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 For example, my brother, you know, my late brother, he used to say, when I was younger and used to visit me in Cape Town when I lived in Cape Town, he'd say, damn it, I hate walking with you. Because

Speaker 5 if we're going to the mall, let's say we're going to Cavendish Square when I was in Cape Town. And they'd be like, oh, God damn it, we're going to have to, you're going to be stopped by people.

Speaker 5 You're going to start chatting to everybody there and all of that. And I didn't know this.
And do you know when I noticed that

Speaker 5 maybe I do stop and talk to a lot of people along the way was when I started hanging out a lot with who, Tolisa?

Speaker 5 Tolisa,

Speaker 5 because now for the first time, I was the one who had to wait. That's so funny.
Now

Speaker 5 I was like, oh, Flip, this is what people mean when they say that I stop and talk.

Speaker 2 You know, it's like, what you do, you stop and you speak to everybody, and everybody speaks to you. And I want, do you think you got it from your grandfather? Because, like,

Speaker 2 tell me a little bit about your grandfather. Because I know, I know, like, some of the loose stories we've shared here and there, but like, who was your grandfather?

Speaker 5 Wow. My grandfather,

Speaker 5 his name, guys,

Speaker 5 if you're South African, right, and you're trying to give someone a job,

Speaker 5 and just like you have to read someone's name and it's a wife's only job,

Speaker 5 my grandfather would get the job because his name was Alfred Kaiser Beuce.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 2 Alfred Kaiser, like the German Kaiser.

Speaker 2 Alfred Kaiser Boyce. Yes.

Speaker 5 B-O-Y-C-E.

Speaker 2 So that's from Boyce. Yeah.

Speaker 5 From my mom. Damn.
From my mom. I know, right? Damn.
Yes.

Speaker 2 It sounds very fancy, right? No, it really does.

Speaker 2 Alfred Kaiser Boyce.

Speaker 5 Alfred Kaiser Boyce.

Speaker 2 Send in Alfred Kaiser Boyce. Sounds like a German Uber driver in the military.

Speaker 2 Actually.

Speaker 2 Damn.

Speaker 2 Wait, wait, where did he get? Where does he get that name?

Speaker 5 So he got that name from, well, they gave him Alfred Kaiser because he went to school. So like back in

Speaker 5 because in the 20s, so the school, they gave him the white teachers.

Speaker 2 Yeah, the same way Mandela Nelson.

Speaker 5 Nelson, yes.

Speaker 2 Wait, so did your grandfather also have, because Nelson we know had Rolis Arsa was his name? Then they were like, no, no, you're Nelson, buddy. I don't.
Did your grandfather have...

Speaker 5 Do you know? No, he was always... I always knew him as Alfred Kaiser boy.
So he didn't have any other name. But

Speaker 2 surely, he was given another name when he was born.

Speaker 5 This is a good question. I have no idea because all his sisters have, in fact, one of his sisters, her name is hilarious.
Gunofo.

Speaker 2 Gunofo? No fool basically means the fourth one.

Speaker 5 Four. Her name would be four.

Speaker 2 Exactly. Imagine your parents calling you just a number.

Speaker 2 First kid.

Speaker 2 Okay, Stephanie.

Speaker 2 That's wild, nor for north. Okay, but

Speaker 5 like, for example, like, I didn't know her name until the funeral.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Because, you know, in the village, like it's saying, like, you, you didn't know older people's names. You just didn't know what their names were.
All he knew was like, okay, the grandchild from there.

Speaker 5 And that's their name. So when the parents sent to you, they'd be like,

Speaker 5 they'll never say, like, you call me, like, say, go to Patricia's house. No, they would never say.

Speaker 5 They'll say, go to Trevor's house and talk to Trevor's mom and say, this is what I want.

Speaker 2 I struggle to explain this to my, let's say, my American friends or any of my Western friends because I'll meet their parents, right?

Speaker 2 And oftentimes they say it's white people. And then they'll go, Hey, Trevor, how are you doing? And I'll be like, oh, nice to meet you, Mr.
Johnson, or whatever.

Speaker 2 And they'll be like, oh, come on, my name is Brad. Then I'm like, yes, Mr.
Johnson. Yeah.
Then they get angry. Yeah.
Like, hey. Hey, I'm not, my father was Mr.
Johnson. I'm Brad.

Speaker 2 Then I'm like, no, your son is Peter. You are Mr.
Johnson.

Speaker 2 Or I will then call you Peter's father.

Speaker 2 And it's hard to explain it because where we come from, you never referred to an older person by their name. You didn't even know their name.
You didn't know their name.

Speaker 2 So everything was in relation to. So you would go, oh, hello, Kaya's aunt.

Speaker 2 Oh, hello, Kaya's grandmother. Yes.
Oh, hey, Kaya's father. How are you today?

Speaker 5 You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 So my grandfather, he was not the chief in the village, but he was,

Speaker 2 he

Speaker 5 controlled all the cattle in the village, not just any village.

Speaker 2 Just to create some of the imagery here for you, if when Kaya says village, I've learned now, like some people, you know, I have friends now from England because I've moved up in the world

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 they've they grew up, they grew up in villages as well, but it's not village like we

Speaker 2 all right. So, when if you're trying to picture village here, if you've watched Black Panther,

Speaker 2 before they go through the magical dome that covers Wakanda, you know how like Wakanda looks, but before the spaceship flies through that dome, this is where Kaya grew up.

Speaker 2 So he's on the outside of the dome.

Speaker 2 He's on the outside of the dome

Speaker 2 before the technology. Yeah.
He's with like the cows and the sheep and like the mud huts. Yes.
And this is, this is how you grew up. I just want people to understand this.
So when you say the village,

Speaker 2 no plumbing, no, no planning, no latch roofs.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And all of that.
Mud huts. Yes.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay.
This is. So when you say village, this is the village you mean.
Cool.

Speaker 5 Yeah. So he was a custodian of all the cattle.
I'd say

Speaker 5 around maybe four or five villages around us. Damn.

Speaker 5 And so if anyone, like, let's say, Trevor, one of your cows gives birth, you had to come and report and say that my cow, so-and-so, it's given birth. And then my grandfather would register the cow.

Speaker 2 So he was the DMV of cows.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 2 That's what he was. That's what he was.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah. So register the cow.
Yeah. If a cow died, you had to come and tell him

Speaker 2 that's a write-off. Yeah.

Speaker 2 When you cause a wreck, you have to report it to the government as well. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah. So he was this guy in the village.
And so he has like this, you know,

Speaker 5 authority

Speaker 5 because he, I mean, cows are wealth. And now he's controlling the wealth of the village.

Speaker 2 That is really, that's really powerful.

Speaker 5 Yeah. So he was very powerful.
And so a lot of people would come to him for, you know,

Speaker 5 counsel, for advice, and, you know, all sorts of things. My home was very busy.
So it was never quiet because of this.

Speaker 2 Ah.

Speaker 2 Okay. This, you see, this this is starting to explain the problem.

Speaker 5 Now that you're saying it, because,

Speaker 5 and then, I mean, because the dog's in the house with a

Speaker 5 gate and people were scared of the dogs. So they'd call my name, Kale too.
Then I'd have to freaking get out of the house, go open, you know, go open the gate, fetch whoever, you know, is. Yes.
So

Speaker 5 when I was walking anywhere with my grandparents, people would be talking to them. And obviously, because they want to be seen to be nice to the children too,

Speaker 2 they will speak to you. They don't speak to me as well.

Speaker 5 And I suspect that's probably what kind of, I gained that kind of, but also a village is like everybody talks to everybody. And maybe I still have that kind of

Speaker 5 where it's like, okay,

Speaker 5 oh, there's so and so. I'll say hi because I know them.

Speaker 5 You don't talk to them for a reason. You just talk to people for a reason.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you just talk to them because they're there.

Speaker 5 Because they're there. And I think that's probably where I get that from.
And maybe that's why in like most of my books, I kind of can't help but write about the village, which I love,

Speaker 2 yeah.

Speaker 2 It's a lot more profound for me than on the surface. You know, when you go, we greet people just because they're there.

Speaker 2 You know, I often think to myself, one of the things I miss most when I'm not in South Africa

Speaker 2 is the fact that we all acknowledge each other.

Speaker 2 I mean, even in the smallest ways, you know, our greetings are plural. Yeah, you know, you walk into a room, you you greet everybody.

Speaker 2 I see all of you. Yes.
Yes. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 It's molueni. You know, it's like for everyone.

Speaker 2 We see all of you. You know,

Speaker 2 and you don't realize how beautiful that is as a concept until you don't have it, really. And you travel the world.

Speaker 2 And in many places, people get into an elevator, you know, a lift, and they don't greet anybody. And people get into a bus, nobody greets anybody.
People get into the train in New York.

Speaker 2 When I first got there, I greeted people when I first got on the train. Kaya, I've never seen,

Speaker 2 you know, like, you know, if you want to be a creep, step into the subway, and then when the doors close, be like, hello, hello.

Speaker 2 Dude, I was such a creep. But I didn't know that you're not, you just, you don't great, it's almost frowned upon, you know.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it's such a wonderful feeling to be seen. Yeah,

Speaker 5 it's very different. It's almost, you know, when you actually said son you know sunny bona honey yeah

Speaker 5 i actually um i don't know if i i'm thinking about this or i've seen it i've read it somewhere but it's almost like when it says sunny bona because i if i'm the one greeting you yeah right sunny bona sounds like i am

Speaker 5 because it is me who's saying sannibona so i'm saying we see you yes right so it almost feels like i'm saying me and my ancestors yeah and everybody who comes with me sees you yeah so we're greeting you, right?

Speaker 5 So that's why I think what you just said is very profound, that our greetings are plural, right? So it's everybody who comes before me also observes who you are as a human being. Whereas

Speaker 5 like

Speaker 5 in the Western culture, it's starting to creep in where, you know, people are starting not to greet and all of that.

Speaker 5 But what usually happens, so like I'm busy and I run into you and I'm asking for directions, I walk up to, so I don't know who you are, you're a stranger. And I come to you and I say,

Speaker 5 you know,

Speaker 5 and then we're like, and then you,

Speaker 5 older people love doing this to you. And they'll be like,

Speaker 5 and they greet you. Oh, and you're like, oh man.
Yeah. They are really saying that, oh, you didn't greet me basically by saying that.
They're forcing the greeting.

Speaker 5 And then now you come down and you have to greet them. How are you? I'm fine, fine.
Thank you. All right.
Oh, what did you want? Oh, okay. Directions to KFC.

Speaker 5 And then they start offering you, you know, the direction.

Speaker 2 They tell you, they don't know where it is.

Speaker 5 So, and I think there's something really actually very, very profound about that. I think we take it for granted because we live here and experience it.

Speaker 5 But every single person, including white people, they always say when they go overseas and they come back to South Africa, they talk about how it is, they're like, you know what I miss about South Africa?

Speaker 5 People don't greet everyone, like they don't greet anyone else. And here we do.

Speaker 2 I think one of the more beautiful aspects of South African culture holistically is that we're a culture of seeing people. So a simple example I noticed was

Speaker 2 three different versions of the same thing. When I was in India, where I live in New York, and then I'll come to South Africa.
It's the way people respond to homeless people.

Speaker 2 In

Speaker 2 India,

Speaker 2 people either completely ignore a homeless person or they like, they do this hand thing where they like dismiss them, like hardcore. You know, for me, it's hardcore.

Speaker 2 Obviously, it's an Indian thing, so I'm not judging it, but it's just like I was like, wow, damn, that's that's hardcore.

Speaker 2 You know, in New York, people won't even look at somebody, so there'll be like a homeless person on the street and asking for money, and people just walk past,

Speaker 2 they don't make eye contact, you avoid it at all costs.

Speaker 2 And it's crazy to say this, but I found myself being really proud of South Africa because when I would come back after being away for long stints, I realized how like

Speaker 2 people would look at homeless people and greet them, not give them money always. I'm not saying it's like everyone is like super altruistic or anything.

Speaker 2 And then the funny thing is they would even have a conversation with the homeless person. You know, so let's say a homeless person would come to your window and then they'd be like, hey, hello, Poza.

Speaker 2 Anything, anything? Then you'd be like, ah, nothing, nothing. I remember once, this is one of the funniest conversations I've ever had.

Speaker 2 It changed how I drive, by the way, because now I always have, like, I'll always have some change in the car or something just because of this guy. I'll never forget this.
I'm driving my car,

Speaker 2 and I think I was driving a Range Rover at the time. And I get to the traffic lights, and the guy comes to the window.
Then he's like, Hey, hello, Boza, hello, anything, please? Hello, anything?

Speaker 2 And I was like, Ah, nothing, Baba, sorry, nothing, nothing. Then he's like, Nothing.
I was like, No. Then he's like, Ah, you finished it on the car.

Speaker 2 Yo, bro.

Speaker 2 Bro, the way he said it,

Speaker 2 the way he he said it, he's like, yeah, no, hey, just finish on that car now, eh? Yeah, hey, I'm sure it's tough now.

Speaker 2 Brian, he just, and he, he didn't like judge, he didn't fight with me, he didn't anything, just had like the rest of a conversation with me.

Speaker 2 And when I drove away, maybe it's because of like, in a, I know this is going to sound strange, but in a weird way, because he saw me,

Speaker 2 he reminded me that I have to see him.

Speaker 5 Oh, wow. That's very true.
Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Like he actually reminded me that like, yo, man, just because the guy is is homeless, just because the guy's begging for money, doesn't mean he's not a human being.

Speaker 5 You'll be like, sorry, like, I don't have, you know, and they'll say, oh, so next time.

Speaker 2 They do say that.

Speaker 5 Yeah, sure, next time. And you're like, and you're like, yeah, next time.

Speaker 2 But, like, yeah, yeah. They, they have an acknowledgement of the fact that you could also be going through something that means you don't necessarily have disposable income at this point in time.

Speaker 2 Yeah. That's very true, actually.

Speaker 5 It's very, it's because there's cute.

Speaker 2 There's actually, I've never experienced that in another country.

Speaker 2 I've never, ever experienced in a country where someone asked me for money and I don't have, and you know, now it's worse because we're cashless, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 But I've never experienced that where I go, oh, I don't have anything on me. Only in South Africa will a person say, I know it's fine.
You know what?

Speaker 2 Maybe next time you'll, yeah, good luck to you, my man. Yeah, except for that.
Except for that.

Speaker 5 I don't know.

Speaker 5 I think I mentioned this to you a few days ago.

Speaker 5 This is this tweet. Right.
There's someone who tweeted about the word that intersection.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Intersection and the traffic lights weren't working.

Speaker 5 uh-huh or robots traffic lights they're not working and the guy's directing traffic and so it goes to the guy you know at the front of you know the guy in front yeah and kind of asks him for money and the guy says so i don't have money while the guy was talking this homeless

Speaker 2 with his

Speaker 5 fingers just put his fingers into the guy's

Speaker 5 He will put his fingers down this guy.

Speaker 5 And this guy tweeted about this experience. and basically it's like he doesn't know what to do because this guy just freaking shoved his fingers down

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 he wasn't giving him money

Speaker 2 oh

Speaker 5 yeah

Speaker 5 that was like yeah that was i mean it i mean that that never happens but

Speaker 5 this happens once in a while but

Speaker 5 it's my it's it's my favorite it's the my favorite story it's terrible the favorite thing i've heard this year what would you do?

Speaker 5 You know, it's one of those things where I

Speaker 5 think I'll drive off, but I'd no, I'm saying, what would you do as it happens, though?

Speaker 2 As it happens, as it happens, so would you close your mouth? I would suck so I'd make him uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 Oh my god, you think so? You think so? That's what you really think you would do. No, no, no, that's what you're thinking about.
This is you behind the microphone.

Speaker 2 Never. This is you behind the microphone, buddy.

Speaker 5 At that time, I think the first thing I'll think about is like, let me not swallow.

Speaker 2 i like i need to find the closest garage i need to go

Speaker 5 i promise you that's what i've been thinking about and it sounds terrible and elitist but i would be thinking like i need to go and get mouthwash should i go to my doctor i don't know

Speaker 2 but i think why would a random stranger do that right that's what i was gonna say i was gonna say yeah

Speaker 2 The fact that the person is homeless might be a slight heightening of it. Yes.
But I think it's the stranger.

Speaker 5 Yeah. But also like, it doesn't matter where so random, that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 5 Why would you do that to you?

Speaker 2 I think it's I think it's more just about a straight because if I was on a trip, even if I was in an aeroplane and someone walked past my row and then said to me, Excuse me, can I have your drink?

Speaker 2 and I was like, No, and while I was still talking, they put their fingers in my mouth, I'd have the exact same reason.

Speaker 2 They wouldn't pull their hand out of my mouth and I'd be like, Oh, at least they weren't homeless. No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I wouldn't think that

Speaker 2 it's more the stranger, yeah, and the fingers that come with that stranger going into your mouth. But what if, what if they were from economy?

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 that's sort of like homelessness.

Speaker 2 Can I tell you what's funny about this? It's just like how powerful the human mind is.

Speaker 2 Is that like, and not to get too graphic, but it's funny how people will go out, put their tongue in a stranger's mouth that they've never met. Like they'll go to a club or a restaurant or a bar.

Speaker 2 They'll put their tongue in a stranger's mouth that they've never met.

Speaker 2 Right?

Speaker 2 They will go home with that person and then put their mouth in other places on that person. Okay.

Speaker 2 But then if somebody comes and put their fingers in your mouth because you didn't choose it this is how powerful consent is as a concept wow that is very true yeah because if you if you you chose it now it's not crazy yeah because i don't know surely you've had the stranger's fingers in your mouth but technically you have no but they're not a stranger at the time

Speaker 2 how long have you known them maybe a couple of hours

Speaker 5 you see you see so it's like yeah we had a conversation it's all just in the mind there was consent like you Yeah, no, it's all about consent. So now they're like...

Speaker 5 Because now I'm like, what is in their finger? Like, what's there?

Speaker 2 Right, it doesn't matter. The mouth isn't really...
You'll be shocked at what your mouth can handle.

Speaker 2 You don't know. You can clip that, by the way.
You can put it somewhere.

Speaker 2 For me. But it's true.
For me, the worst part of that story would be,

Speaker 5 if I liked it.

Speaker 2 I think that's the best part of the story. Or something.
Why is that the worst part? That would be the best part. You'd have to tell people that you thought.
No.

Speaker 2 You don't have to tell anybody that you liked it they liked it, but now you know which intersection you're driving to every single week,

Speaker 2 hoping

Speaker 2 you just be there all the time.

Speaker 2 Your window just window down, mouth wide open. I have no money.

Speaker 2 We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break.

Speaker 2 Of everyone I had ever known in my life,

Speaker 2 you were the only person, and I mean the only person I knew who was closely following American politics, A, before it became like, let's say, popular, for lack of a better word.

Speaker 2 And before I went and did the daily show.

Speaker 5 And I was watching the daily show.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you were watching the daily show before I knew what the daily show even was as a concept. Like when I said, I remember when I said I'm going to do an episode of the daily show,

Speaker 2 you lost, like, you lost your mind.

Speaker 2 You were like, wow, wow, this is so great. And I was like, all right, I guess.
Because by that time, I'd appeared on Jay Leno, I'd appeared on Letterman. I had known of those more.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 But you were just like the daily show.

Speaker 2 Like, when did your passion for American history and politics begin? Like, why? Because this wasn't a thing that's popular in South Africa. Yeah.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 It's not like it was a trend.

Speaker 5 Well, I think it's because I was such a

Speaker 5 loner, you know, as a child.

Speaker 2 It still doesn't explain in the kaya. Oh, God, like, a lot of a lot of kids.
I was alone. Do you know what I did? I played Mario Brothers.
You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 Like, I didn't sit at home and go, hmm, I wonder what Richard Nixon thought before Watergate happened. No, I was like, Mario Brothers.

Speaker 5 No, I think it's because it was reading.

Speaker 2 Yes, but how do you get to those books? I also read a lot.

Speaker 5 The Wind in the Willows. Yeah, Little Prince, Dr.

Speaker 2 Seuss.

Speaker 2 What kind of child growing up in a village?

Speaker 2 Remember, you

Speaker 2 where people had pets like cats and dogs yeah you were on a first name basis with sheeps and cows that's true no and that's true so you were like rolling with sheep and cows yes

Speaker 2 and then you go and i'm also going to really get into regan and nixon and bill clinton then i had to go to the township you know so

Speaker 5 like at 13 so i'm living with my mother And then my mom kind of starts saying important things are really happening in this country.

Speaker 5 Like Mandela and all that. And so she starts, she she literally forces them to start reading the newspaper.
In fact, in my school, like

Speaker 5 I was the only black kid in my class, for example.

Speaker 5 And then in the school of her, like about 800 or 900 kids, there must have been five, six black kids, you know, in the school when they in the school. Did you know all of them?

Speaker 5 At night, the black kids. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I mean, at school, yes.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but I'm saying, do you know them? Yeah. Were they male, female?

Speaker 5 They were,

Speaker 5 I think they were

Speaker 5 both. yeah, I just developed both genders.

Speaker 2 Did you date, did anyone try and set you up with them?

Speaker 5 No, we're too young. So, so nobody kind of tried to do anything at the time.
So, we here,

Speaker 5 and then

Speaker 5 the school library, because I was always in the library, there was, and before the library opened, I would go and read the newspaper, the daily dispatch, and I just go and read and read and read until seven o'clock until the school started 7.30.

Speaker 5 And then I'd read the newspaper until 7.30.

Speaker 2 But Kaya, sorry to cut you off there.

Speaker 2 You could barely speak English.

Speaker 5 Yes, because I'd learned to speak English two years before.

Speaker 2 But you were reading everything in English.

Speaker 5 Yes, I was reading everything in English.

Speaker 2 This is really insane to me.

Speaker 5 I was reading this and then

Speaker 5 in high school, they had like Time magazine and Newsweek. And then I'd read.

Speaker 2 So, okay, so you go to a news school? Yeah, I go to a new school school. Okay, got it.
Okay, I see what happened here. So this moves from the village.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 Now, you've learned English two years ago.

Speaker 2 You're in an English school.

Speaker 5 They've got Time magazine. They've got Time Magazine.
They've got Newsweek.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 No Garfield.

Speaker 5 I used to read Garfield. Oh, you did? Because that Guffold in the newspaper.

Speaker 2 I like that you were like a this guy was a full-time adult part-time kid, essentially.

Speaker 5 That's an idea. And then,

Speaker 5 and then they'd have the

Speaker 5 news week, and then politics I was like, oh, is this Bill Clinton guy? Okay. Oh, interesting.
And then I'd read about him and Hillary Clinton and George Bush and all of those guys.

Speaker 5 I'm like, oh, Ross Perot.

Speaker 5 And I'm like, wow, this is fascinating. And so then that gets me like a lot very interested in American history.

Speaker 5 And then I think what also got me into it was because the O.J. Simpson trial happened.
And then I was fast. I could not wait for Newsweek or Time magazine every week.

Speaker 5 and i'd be there reading about the trial because they're detailed information about about this trial you are 13 years old while this is happening yeah and so and i'm reading this case and i'll never forget like

Speaker 5 i got the highest mark for uh an oral in the history of the school thanks to this for me reading just randomly reading and i'll tell you how this happened so i had the OJ Simpson trial was going to happen and then he was acquitted.

Speaker 5 And our teacher gives the entire class an assignment and this, and she says,

Speaker 5 okay, class, this is your subject, a controversial subject. Whatever you choose,

Speaker 5 everybody does the things abortion, it is,

Speaker 2 you know, you know, it is democracy,

Speaker 2 all of those things, right?

Speaker 5 And then I go and I speak on like as the following day, I'm the first one to speak, you know, in front of the class.

Speaker 5 And I start off and I say, and I start off by reciting what the jury said, you know, at the beginning.

Speaker 5 It's like, like, we, the jury, find the defendant, Orendel James Simpson, not guilty of the above entitled action, pinal code, whatever, whatever, of the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson, a human being, right?

Speaker 5 And then I say, it's very fascinating to me that white Americans, I say this specifically, and now remember my entire class is white, except for two other black kids in the class.

Speaker 5 And I say, it's fascinating to me that white people believe,

Speaker 5 conveniently believe that you are innocent until proven guilty. Yes.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 5 But they're so angry that OJ Simpson has been found not guilty of this. But at the same time,

Speaker 5 why is it so important for him to be guilty if they believe that you are innocent and

Speaker 5 guilty? And I must have spoken for a minute and a half making that statement when my classmates started interjecting, asking me questions, just like, no, but Kai, you can't say that.

Speaker 5 He used to hit her and cops would come as I yes, I understand. That's true.
What he was doing was terrible. It should not be, no one should be hitting anybody.
It's evil, da-da-da, and so on.

Speaker 5 But it doesn't mean that he did kill her, right? So according to the evidence that was presented and what the jury said, they said he is not guilty.

Speaker 5 So, and the teacher also asking me questions, the period ended. I didn't finish my oral.

Speaker 5 So I thought, oh my goodness, I'm going to get zero because then the next period comes, I mean, like the next day, someone else and someone else. And I said, Miss, I didn't finish on all.

Speaker 5 So no, it's fine. And then I got like 100%.

Speaker 5 And she said, because

Speaker 5 your subject was so controversial.

Speaker 2 That everyone got involved.

Speaker 5 That everyone got involved. It never happened with anybody else.
And it was because I had so much specific detailed information that I could give everybody answers because I was reading this.

Speaker 5 about this trial every week.

Speaker 2 Okay, but now do you think OJ did it or do you still think he was innocent?

Speaker 5 I don't know.

Speaker 5 I really don't know if he did it. But

Speaker 5 the yeah, but what do you think? What do I think?

Speaker 2 I'm not saying you know. What do I think? Because nobody knows.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 because I understand 13-year-old Kyle was like, This man is innocent. No, no, I suspect there was a 13-year-old

Speaker 2 parading through the school and was like, This man is innocent. You know, like, he's the Nelson Mandela of football in America.
No, but I

Speaker 5 struggle to think that he was he he, he did it.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 5 So you like

Speaker 5 based on

Speaker 5 the trial I was following at the time.

Speaker 2 I struggle. But now, I'm assuming you've watched OJ Made in America.

Speaker 5 Yeah, Made in America.

Speaker 5 Now,

Speaker 5 when I watch that and I'm like, hmm.

Speaker 5 But I don't know what that perspective was, right? Because someone is saying something from a different lens.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 5 So they have a perspective when they're making that. But when I think about 13-year-old me, I was like, I don't think he did it.
But after watching that documentary, I was like,

Speaker 5 I think you did it

Speaker 5 after watching that documentary.

Speaker 2 Okay, so

Speaker 5 that's how I got to American.

Speaker 2 No, no, no, yeah, I'm loving it. And so that's that actually prompts a question that I have for you.

Speaker 2 This is this is a puzzle that I've been playing with in my head. Oh, sorry, quickly.
Sorry.

Speaker 5 Don't forget your puzzle. But also, another thing,

Speaker 5 how I learned, this is crazy, how I learned which city is in which state in America was by watching at the time, it was WWF Wrestling.

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 5 they would say, from Austin, Texas, Stone Michaels. And then his song would come.

Speaker 2 Or from Detroit, Michigan, big daddy cool diesel.

Speaker 5 And I was like, oh, and I literally learned, oh, okay. But I didn't know what was the state I tried to figure out what is the thing they mentioned first and the thing they mentioned second

Speaker 2 and then I figured out oh it's a state and it's a city and it's like you know what makes this more impressive is that you're doing this pre-internet pre-internet and post-village yeah no it's thoroughly impressive okay but here so here's the puzzle and I think you you you you are uniquely positioned to help me answer this because I don't think we'll figure it out but maybe maybe we can we can sort of get close to it

Speaker 2 I was thinking the other day,

Speaker 2 oftentimes, when people exist in the time that they're in, they are the worst people to judge the time that they're in.

Speaker 2 Right?

Speaker 2 So, nobody can judge the future because it hasn't happened. We can all judge the past if we're present, but the people of the present are the worst judges of the present because they're in it.

Speaker 2 And I think about this with everything that has happened in time. So,

Speaker 2 you look at World War II.

Speaker 2 I'm often shocked at how most of the world, especially the United States, didn't want to do anything, even though Hitler was on his journey to wipe out Jewish people. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Like it's pretty crazy when you read, and then you see American articles from back then and they're like, oh, yeah, you know, we got to let Germany be Germany and do their own thing.

Speaker 2 And we're not involved in what other countries are doing. And we spoke to Hitler and he said, it's not that bad.
So we're moving on.

Speaker 2 And you're just like, wait, this was an actual real thing. And now it seems completely obvious, right?

Speaker 2 But at the time, they were like, no, we're making the prudent decision to not get involved in another war that doesn't involve us, et cetera, et cetera, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, there's countless

Speaker 2 examples throughout history, whether it's slavery, whether it's, you know, and obviously there's people fought against at the time,

Speaker 2 but it becomes hindsight that gives you a certain level of clarity that allows you to judge, I think, more accurately. but never perfectly, because even it will change.

Speaker 2 And so the thing I've been playing with recently is:

Speaker 2 like, if you want to talk about a masterclass in branding,

Speaker 2 Trump does the thing

Speaker 2 that makes him look good.

Speaker 5 I almost think that,

Speaker 5 I don't know, but I feel like

Speaker 5 there are going to be two Trumps, right? The Trump of the first term and the Trump of the second presidency.

Speaker 2 Damn, I'm

Speaker 2 sorry. You made me feel like Terminator one and two.

Speaker 2 I'm not even joking. I don't know why when you said that in my head, I pictured Terminator One and Terminator Two.
Terminator One was the bad guy, and then Terminator two was now the good guy.

Speaker 5 So he's the first one. He's like, he is, he didn't think I was going to win.

Speaker 2 I don't think he wanted to win.

Speaker 5 You know, for the first time.

Speaker 5 But then now he's in this thing. Now he's the president.
Okay, great. He has, he's unprepared.

Speaker 5 But now he understands the levers of power. He just gets it.
I mean, I remember reading something about what makes great politicians. Like great politicians are great at stagecraft.

Speaker 5 So they understand, for them, they understand the theater.

Speaker 5 They're actors, basically. That's what it was.
I remember reading someone where someone was describing Mandela as a great actor.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 they use that example when he walks out of the treason trial and when he's found guilty and he makes that speech. And when he says,

Speaker 5 what's that speech? Remind me somebody, Madiva's speech, very famous at the end.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we all know it in the room. Come on, guys.
We all know it. You're the guy who's going to remind us.
I know it.

Speaker 5 Where he's basically saying that, well,

Speaker 5 if you find me guilty,

Speaker 5 it is an ideal for which I am prepared.

Speaker 5 It's an ideal I want to live for, but if needs, I'm prepared to die if needs be. Something else.

Speaker 5 But anyway. We'll play it.

Speaker 2 We should just play it. Yeah.

Speaker 6 I have cherished the

Speaker 6 But my Lord,

Speaker 6 if it needs be,

Speaker 6 it is an ideal for which I am prepared

Speaker 6 to die.

Speaker 5 And then, when he walks out of the, he's, he's, you know, it's the last day of the trial, he's wearing his hosted traditional warrior outfit because he knows that it's going to come across as defiant.

Speaker 5 Every single picture in the world will have him as this guy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 So it's this kind of just a position between like this oppressed heroes fighting against his his people dressed like this and

Speaker 5 and like just throughout his life and I think that Donald Trump is a natural actor he's phenomenal I can't think of a single American politician in the history of the United States that's better at stagecraft than Trump no I agree with you for for better or worse but no just the stagecraft one of the things I've heard about multiple people who've been in Trump's orbit is he in a weird way Trump is more honest about the game of American politics than most American politicians are.

Speaker 2 Have you seen when Trump even said when he'd be on stage and he'd be like, you know, folks, I can do it. They say he's not presidential.
I can be presidential. I can be, it's so easy.

Speaker 2 I can stand here and say, oh, hello, everybody.

Speaker 2 So good to be here. I can do it, folks.
You want me to be presidential? I can be presidential. But in the craziest way, he was.

Speaker 2 That's what I think I find fascinating about the man

Speaker 2 is that Trump says the thing that he's doing out loud, but the people don't hear it or process it.

Speaker 5 I think it's because it's so honest and transparent that they can't believe it's real. I don't know what it is.
Because it's so, because no one does it. You're not supposed to do that.
Yeah, I guess.

Speaker 5 And then he does it. And then it's like, okay.

Speaker 5 And he likes to be liked. He loves to be liked.
I think this is the number one drug. And I think this is why there's,

Speaker 5 I suppose a lot of these tech tech CEOs have figured out about him. It's like, just like him.
And then everything is fine.

Speaker 2 Well, I don't know if everything will be fine. Well, I mean, because you.
Because here's the problem, right? Yeah. Here's the problem.

Speaker 2 The one problem that I think people will face with Trump is this. Yes, he likes to be liked.
But if everyone likes him and all these people have conflicting interests.

Speaker 5 He is an enemy as well.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but even so, if everyone likes him.

Speaker 2 Those people still have conflicts of interest with each other. Like they have conflicting interests.
So now whose like comes before the other person's like?

Speaker 2 There's people who've come and kissed the ring with Trump. And then Trump is like, yeah, the stupid person came and kissed the ring.
They came here. They let me put my fingers in their mouth.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean? There's no guarantee. But like, I don't know.
I don't know. This is why I oscillate between the two thoughts.

Speaker 2 On the one hand, I think to myself, Trump has all of the ingredients to be a dictator. On the other hand, I go, his incessant need to be liked means he can't be a dictator.

Speaker 2 yeah because dictators can sort of operate outside of the realm of being liked yeah do you know what i mean yes

Speaker 5 they don't care yeah they go like i don't care not that they don't care about it i don't like

Speaker 2 you like him no because you think so you'll act no thing like you have to act like you like him to make you like him oh yeah that's true i mean but that's what i'm that no but that is what i'm saying i'm saying there's there's two sides right you can love being liked so much that you have all the ingredients to be a dictator so you go i'm gonna create the reality that I exist in.

Speaker 2 That means I'm always liked. Or you can like being liked so much that you go, I would never be a dictator because I want the people to like me.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And with him, you don't know.

Speaker 2 But what I do know is Americans firmly believe, and this is something I both love and also sometimes find amusing about America and Americans, is they truly believe it is impossible that it can happen in their country.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 2 like impossible, kind of.

Speaker 5 I mean,

Speaker 5 there are many countries that didn't think dictatorships in that countries, and it happened. I mean, I think, you know, speaking about time.

Speaker 2 I stand to be corrected on this, but I remember reading this once that like most dictators were voted in. Yeah, they were.
People forget that they didn't

Speaker 2 take power. Yes.
They were voted in.

Speaker 5 I mean, they just kept power. Putin was voted in.

Speaker 5 I mean, Mugabe was voted in. Mugava was voted in.
You think of anybody, they were voted in. What's fascinating? to me about him is that I think

Speaker 5 maybe I'm wrong about that he likes to be like yes he likes to be liked yeah but he likes likes to be liked by people he disagrees with, but respects. Yes.
And

Speaker 5 craves the adoration. But I think that for him, it's that.
And I think that's why he's like these tech guys, he respects them because, well, they're rich,

Speaker 5 they're running big companies.

Speaker 2 I also think it's oftentimes we forget that the way we're processing someone or something

Speaker 2 is in relation to us and the us can be anywhere. Right.

Speaker 2 One of the more eye-opening experiences I ever had was when I went to the Middle East and I actually really got to spend time there.

Speaker 2 And I was in Qatar and I was in the UAE, so you know, Dubai and Abu Dhabi, and I was in Oman and all these places. And it was amazing to see how differently people thought about Trump there.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like, I thought in those places people would hate Trump more than anyone because Trump was like, I'm doing the Muslim ban, right?

Speaker 2 I realized that I had done what I think a lot of people do.

Speaker 2 I had

Speaker 2 assumed or even believed

Speaker 2 that I embodied the offense that the other person was experiencing

Speaker 2 when they themselves weren't. And you know, we see this oftentimes in society where somebody will be offended on behalf of others more than those people themselves are offended.

Speaker 2 Right. Like remember when, um, remember when uh Tom Hanks's son put out that video speaking patois from Jamaica?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Right.
And like full-on and he was and he's like fluent and he's like doing it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Speaker 2 And he's like he's nailing it. The guy's crushing it.
Not like what I just did now. This guy's nailing it.
He's absolutely nailing it. Dude, and then Americans were like, this is disrespectful.

Speaker 2 He must be cancelled. This is blah, blah.
And then Jamaicans came out and they were like,

Speaker 2 they're like, yo, this boy is completely fluent. He knows us.
Everything he's saying is correct. They're like, you guys are offensive.
Why, why don't you want him to speak patois?

Speaker 2 And they were like, no, but you guys don't understand what he's doing is wrong. And Jamaicans were like, no, it's not.

Speaker 2 There's also a lot of white Jamaicans, yes, yeah, yeah, that's just how Jamaicans speak, yes, yeah. For me, learning the lesson was actually that with Trump is that

Speaker 2 I was more offended

Speaker 2 than the people in the actual Middle East who I was, and I didn't speak to everyone, obviously, but I spoke to, I spoke to a lot of people about this, and I was really shocked at how they saw it differently.

Speaker 2 There was a um a man in uh

Speaker 2 I think we were in Qatar who said this to me, Really, really, like, you know, he said it and it shook me in the right way.

Speaker 2 We were arguing about Trump and presidents and all of this and all of this and all of this. And I was like, yeah, but.

Speaker 2 And then he said to me, Trevor, he said, I think sometimes maybe you are making mistakes. He said, you see, in America, people are worried about

Speaker 2 whether the politician was polite. They are worried about Trump maybe saying it the wrong way and saying, he said, I don't worry about it.
He says, I worry about what you're doing.

Speaker 2 He says, because, look, my friend, George Bush was very polite. but look at my region.

Speaker 2 He said, Look at what George Bush and his politeness did to my region.

Speaker 2 He says, So, if you're going to bring me somebody who is rude, but they are not going to bomb the Middle East, I will take that.

Speaker 2 And I was like, Hmm, damn.

Speaker 2 Do you, do you, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 It was like, uh,

Speaker 2 I think, like, like Trump does make you question what is more important, and it's not that it is a binary, yeah, but is it, is it the

Speaker 2 is it how, is it how you present the thing, or is it what you actually do?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think it's you know, so if you like to go back to the like you know, a homeless person asking for money, what is better to smile at them and tell them you don't have money, or to take money and throw it at them.

Speaker 2 And I know people will be like, No, but neither one, or no, but I'm saying, like, if you had to choose, if there were only two options, which one would you choose?

Speaker 2 Would you choose that somebody smiles and says, I don't have money and walks away and it's very kind or nice, or would another person comes with a wad of cash, throws it at the homeless person, and then walks away?

Speaker 5 Trump, yeah, I think he's that. You need to ask the homeless person,

Speaker 2 you need to ask the homeless person.

Speaker 5 That is funny. There's a verse in the Bible, yeah, parable, Jesus.
So, Jesus talks about a son, Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ, okay. Just checking, just checking.

Speaker 5 So, Jesus talks about, I forget the exact parable, but what he says in this parable is:

Speaker 5 a father asks a son to do something, right?

Speaker 5 And then the son's like, no, I'm not going to do it.

Speaker 5 It's rude to his father. Yeah.
Ask another son, and the son says, Yes, I'll do it.

Speaker 5 This polite son doesn't do the thing.

Speaker 5 The son who was not polite, he said, He's not going to do the thing. Yeah.
He does the thing that the father asked him to. Okay.
Right. So

Speaker 5 it feels like, and then

Speaker 5 it seems like then Jesus kind of praises

Speaker 5 the son who said, I wouldn't do it, but he did it, but does

Speaker 5 a thing.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 again, it feels like that parable.

Speaker 2 Oh, so then Jesus

Speaker 2 disagrees with you, just so you know.

Speaker 2 You got the J and Donald J. Trump is, yeah, oh,

Speaker 5 Jesus disagrees with you, but Donald Jesus Trump

Speaker 2 don't go anywhere because we got more. What now after this?

Speaker 2 By the way, you've started going to church now, right? Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 Like, why? I would love to know why. So, why? First of all, because I assumed that you weren't religious

Speaker 2 because of all the years that I've known you.

Speaker 2 And then now you go to church.

Speaker 5 Yes. So, well, as you know, I lost my mother last year.
So, which was like I was saying now, it's in two days' time, it's going to be exactly a year.

Speaker 2 How old was your mom when she passed?

Speaker 5 She was

Speaker 5 she just just turned 70.

Speaker 2 So she's just important. I mean, it's not young, but that's young.

Speaker 5 Like I, especially considering how she was, you know, she was super active. And, you know,

Speaker 5 so then I'll never, I mean, I remember driving, you know, to the funeral with my sisters. So they're in the car at the back, and I'm driving.
And I'm leading the funeral procession to the church.

Speaker 5 And I said to them, guys,

Speaker 5 you know that thing, I don't know how to call it, but the thing that you get lumping your throat.

Speaker 5 Or you feel like, ah, I'm just, and I'm trying to not cry as I'm talking to my sister. Yeah.
And I says, guys, I'm not going to talk. I'm not going to speak at the funeral.

Speaker 5 I know I'm supposed to, but I'm not going to do it.

Speaker 5 I can feel I won't be able to do it once I'm in front of the church. It's going to be impossible.
And they're like, no, you can't do that. You know,

Speaker 5 she would have wanted you to.

Speaker 5 And I was like, guys.

Speaker 2 Because you and your mom were close. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And then I'm like, I can't, I can't, you know. So then we get to the church and they like to pronk you right in front of the freaking coffin.
Yeah. So as a family.

Speaker 5 So now I was like, oh my God, this thing is right here. It's more real.
And that feeling was even more profound. It's like, there's no way.
I know I won't be able to speak.

Speaker 5 But then

Speaker 5 there's

Speaker 5 women that what my mom went to church with. They're out there.
They're celebrating singing. They're like, she's singing.
Like, you know, and they keep coming, they come looking at me.

Speaker 5 There's this elder, this old woman she's 93 or 94 old like tiny she's really there i know not many people are smaller than me but she was like really and she keeps going like this and she's singing and they were so joyous and then i got up and i joined them and i started singing and every single time and i felt this

Speaker 5 i almost i think i almost felt her presence my mother's presence and i felt like god's presence and i was like wow

Speaker 5 at that moment I was feeling so broken and weak and unable.

Speaker 2 I was like,

Speaker 5 wow, I know I can speak now. I know I can speak.
And I got up. And what, in fact, I didn't even

Speaker 5 make the speech that I'd prepared in my mind. I literally got up and sang.

Speaker 5 And which I would never do in public. And I urge anybody not to try to hear you singing in public.
And I started singing.

Speaker 2 What did you sing?

Speaker 5 There's a song by by um a trad a very traditional cluster song that was made famous by i also a a cluster singer uman disajangis and he's

Speaker 5 which is like this is my mother who is raised who has young yeah who has raised me and

Speaker 5 and then there's this big photo and I was holding this photo of her and singing this song. And then I just started speaking quite joyously about her,

Speaker 5 very brief, very short.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 then I was like, Next week, when I go back to Joe Bank, I'm going to church. And that was it.
And that's when I started. That's why I started going to church.

Speaker 2 I'm assuming you grew up going to church. Yeah,

Speaker 2 we all did. Yeah.
So, when had you stopped going to church?

Speaker 5 I stopped probably

Speaker 5 going to church in maybe 2006.

Speaker 2 This is when you got a million subscribers on YouTube.

Speaker 2 It is right,

Speaker 2 viewers, viewers, yeah, viewers, views, views, yeah, a million views on YouTube, and then you were like, Who needs God?

Speaker 2 I am God.

Speaker 5 In fact, that's how you know, that's how I first got into touch with Caesar actually. YouTube, wow, yeah, I think he sent me, I think, was mailed each other.
Wow,

Speaker 2 no ways, really.

Speaker 2 I know the whole community, it's global beings. Oh, my God! Wow, yes, yeah, so

Speaker 2 Kaya.

Speaker 2 Didn't Doja Cat also email you?

Speaker 5 Oh my goodness.

Speaker 2 Like a child, child Doja Cat?

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's like before she was Doja Cat. Doja Kitten, didn't she email you?

Speaker 5 It's a wild thing. She did mail me.

Speaker 5 But I mean, she was like 13.

Speaker 5 She sent me an email because obviously because she was watching my videos on YouTube as a 13-year-old and she knew I was from South Africa. So she sent me an email.

Speaker 5 She said, hi, my name is Amala Zandilamini. And my father is Dumisani.
He's this famous actor in South Africa. He was in Sarafina.
I'm trying to get hold. I've never met him.
Wow.

Speaker 5 I want to get hold of him.

Speaker 5 And would you find a way to get me in touch with him? And I felt so

Speaker 5 my heart like, I was like, she's 13. She's like a child.
And she's gone to this extent. And I was like, I'm sure I can find find him easily, right? Because my cousin is an actor.

Speaker 5 He probably knows him,

Speaker 5 yeah. So I sent, I contacted Shlomla, do you know this guy? Yes, where is he? How can I get in touch with him? And they're like, he was in Namibia doing whatever.
It says, this way he is.

Speaker 5 Try to get in touch with him, told him the

Speaker 5 gave him the information about his daughter. And

Speaker 5 he just never responded. And then

Speaker 5 I sent an email back and I told her, like,

Speaker 5 I'll do what I can, but I don't know what to do.

Speaker 5 And then

Speaker 5 one of his daughters, who lives in Soweto, but different mother, also sent me an email having seen the fact that, like,

Speaker 5 because I'd wrote a post, I think I wrote a post.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 yeah, you had put a, yeah, posted a blog about this.

Speaker 5 Yes. And then I posted a blog and where I asked about, and I was like, well, if anybody knows where he is,

Speaker 5 and then

Speaker 5 one of his daughters also sent me like a, an email and said, Okay, this is my email address. Please send my email address to Amala.
And then they would get in touch. And

Speaker 5 that was the last thing I did. That was my last interaction with them.
And I felt very sad because they never got in touch,

Speaker 5 obviously, up to this day, as far as I know. So, and that was long before it was Doja Cat.

Speaker 5 She was just like a 13-year-old girl watching YouTube videos.

Speaker 2 You know, I wonder what it is about you that

Speaker 2 makes people feel

Speaker 2 like you can or would be willing to help them. Because even in hearing the story, I think to myself, like, I know I've done that with you in some ways.

Speaker 2 I think all of us, people in general, they'll turn to you as Kaya and be like, Kaya, can you help me do this? Can you help me find this? Can you help me figure this out? Can you help me?

Speaker 2 And I'm, you think it's his smile? Yeah, but I think it's more there's something, I don't know, I don't know what it is about you because you, you also have a yearning to help people.

Speaker 2 Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 I remember when I was going to appear on the daily show, you were one of the people I called. I was like, yo, man, I'm going to go on the show.

Speaker 2 You're literally the person who, for me, knows the most about American politics. I need your help.

Speaker 2 You know? And you didn't, you were never like, no. In fact, when we met, this is, this is how I met Kaya.

Speaker 2 When we met,

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 Johannesburg slash South Africa is a very small middle class. So if you, you know, if your family was lucky enough to move in somewhere, you sort of knew each other as people.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I remember I would go out to parties or, you know, bries or what Americans call barbecues or... event, whatever it was, nothing fancy, by the way, because I wasn't in entertainment in any way.

Speaker 2 And everywhere I would go,

Speaker 2 I would see this guy,

Speaker 2 this short,

Speaker 2 charismatic human being with a dazzling smile, always laughing, always talking to people. And I'd always see him, and you'd greet me, and I'd greet you, but I didn't know you.

Speaker 2 But you just greet, and you just like you, you have welcoming eyes, you know.

Speaker 2 And the other thing I noticed was oftentimes you were either surrounded by

Speaker 2 businessmen in suits or

Speaker 2 stunning models and I mean just like gorgeous like and I mean surrounded and I think it was more noticeable because models are generally like six feet tall yeah and then you are like you know what I mean

Speaker 2 so it would it would be like this it was it was it was it was quite a sight to behold and I remember one day this is when I plucked up the courage in Cape Town and I came up to you and I said, hey, man, I don't know who you are.

Speaker 2 I don't know your name. But I said, but you are surrounded by the most beautiful women I've ever seen.
And I said, I just want to be your friend. I said, please, can I just be your friend?

Speaker 2 I remember. Yeah.
I remember. And

Speaker 2 yeah, upstairs. And you laughed.
And you were like, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 And you were just, but I mean, like, most people would be like, what? This guy was like, yeah, okay. Well, I guess.
And he was like, we can be friends. And we exchanged.

Speaker 2 Literally, this is how we became. And we exchanged numbers.

Speaker 2 And you were just like, like, all right, we can be friends.

Speaker 5 And it's so funny. And those are with American models.

Speaker 2 And I don't know because I never got to meet you. I know you did.
All I got was our friendship, by the way. I never met a model because of you.
I just know. But I'm happy.

Speaker 2 But it's just funny to me that, like, that's how I met you.

Speaker 5 Ah, that was funny. Because actually what happened there was, because I remember

Speaker 5 this friend of mine was a girl.

Speaker 5 He lived in New York, but was in Joburg. And he said, I have these friends of mine who are in Cape Town.

Speaker 5 The models, they don't know where to go. And they see you're in Cape Town.
Can I show them? I was like, shut up. That's how I ended up with it.

Speaker 2 This is what I mean. Kaya is always needed by people.

Speaker 2 And if you need models

Speaker 2 to need someone, if you have models who need someone, models who don't know where to go, you call Kaya and he'll respond.

Speaker 2 I think that's the old Kaya. He used to bring models.
Now I just bring stories about Uber Travels.

Speaker 5 I'm old

Speaker 2 man yeah yeah but i it's it's i think it's like a beautiful quality like

Speaker 2 you know in the same way i think of the stories of your grandfather and you know i haven't actually i've never heard many stories with your with your dad actually oh yeah

Speaker 5 what

Speaker 5 well crazy thing about my dad is

Speaker 5 we were when we were celebrating my sixth birthday in the village the news came that he died literally we're having a party

Speaker 5 great party like sixth birthdays were like a big thing you know and guava juice you know hey

Speaker 5 the guava juice you knew your maid went to guava juice so they were the guava juice and then

Speaker 5 because the village there were no telephones yeah this is the 80s got a phone call uh they sent a telegram and from the shop someone walked from the shop to my grandparents house to deliver this the telegram to say that well they just received the news that my father had passed away.

Speaker 5 And I think it passed away for a few days because no one,

Speaker 5 for some reason, they couldn't identify.

Speaker 5 He was. But the one story, I mean, the two stories that I remember that have been told about my father.
But my favorite story about my father was

Speaker 5 how petty he was.

Speaker 2 He was,

Speaker 5 it was like, but, but petty, I think, for a reason. So his father, my grandfather, not Alfred Kaiser Boyce.

Speaker 2 This is

Speaker 5 Upaulus Lang.

Speaker 5 Paulos. Paulus.

Speaker 2 Paulus Lang. Paulus.

Speaker 5 Paulus Lang.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 2 he

Speaker 5 had a post

Speaker 5 in Wits. I don't know how this happened.
So it's a story here. I've never, I'd never met him.
So he had a post at Wits where he was somehow

Speaker 5 in the chemistry department. And he was a lecturer or something.
I don't know how, lecturer.

Speaker 5 And then the professor he was working working with the the white guy basically said yo i just found out that you're about to be arrested you'd better leave go to lesotho so he runs off to lesotho this so this is your grandfather on your dad's my dad's okay got it so he's he's a lecturer at a south african university

Speaker 5 yes they he was suspected because he taught chemistry they said that he was teaching uh freedom fighters how to make bombs and that's how they were saying that and was he

Speaker 2 maybe i don't know okay i I can show you the Akino long before you're talking about your grandfather.

Speaker 5 I have no idea. So that's why they accused him of because teaching chemistry.

Speaker 2 And his colleague tells him, I've just found out that you're about to be arrested. I'm assuming by the apartheid.
By the apartheid government. Okay.
Yeah. And so now he flees the country.

Speaker 5 So he flees the country, goes to Lesotho. Okay, got it.
And he ends up in Lesotho. And he gets a teaching post.
He's teaching at the university there called University of Roma. So he's there like...

Speaker 5 So he's in exile now. Yeah, he's in exile.
So he's there for a few years.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I mean, my grandmother used to tell stories about the people who used to go to the house, like Mandela, Sobugu, and all of those people that, you know, that'd be there with him.

Speaker 5 And, but one day they received a letter.

Speaker 5 I actually have a copy of the letter from the Minister of Home Affairs of Lesotho, basically saying that they have received word that his continued presence in Lesotho

Speaker 5 presents an imminent danger to the safety and security of Lesotho. And therefore, they give him 24 hours to leave the country.

Speaker 2 Who's this letter coming from?

Speaker 5 From the home affairs of Lesotho. But they were pressurized

Speaker 5 by the South African government. Wow.

Speaker 2 So the apartheid government says to the government of Lesotho,

Speaker 2 you guys are harboring a terrorist. A terrorist, which is your grandfather.
Yes. And if you

Speaker 2 don't harbor him, then Lesotho is now in the future. Things like Africa.
Yeah, things will happen.

Speaker 5 And so he left before that deadline and obviously back backroots so that so he flees the sutu as well he flees the switch leaving my father and you know his kids there and he leaves back roots but then somehow the cops find him he's in south africa now yeah he's left the sutu they find him arrest him torture him so he's tortured and to such an extent that he becomes um well doesn't get almost half paralyzed yeah yeah okay and is and they're like well they can't take him to court because there's nothing can do now they've tortured him so much and eventually you know about a year or two later he dies and so my father this is what i'm saying this is my favorite story about my father so my father then becomes a traffic cop like in the 80s becomes a cop a traffic cop and he gets called to the head offices of um data you know it's transkaya now another fake country this is the region where he lives so now he is is get someone that he has no idea has been called there he goes to the top bosses and they ask him like they say they bring a file.

Speaker 5 They're like,

Speaker 5 they open the file. They say, explain yourself.
Why is it that every single traffic fine is to a white person?

Speaker 2 You don't fine any black people.

Speaker 5 All these fines are just white people. And he says, well,

Speaker 5 well, most people who drive cars are white. And they say, so you're saying that black people

Speaker 5 don't commit traffic offenses. And he would fine fine them for the tiniest infringement and basically he was given a warning that um if he continues he'll be filed and then he quit

Speaker 5 wow so it was his own little rebellion i think against the i think his protest against what had happen what happened to his father kudos to him so i like that that's that's literally the only story that um i know of him damn i like that because i was too young yeah yeah yeah to know anything about it

Speaker 2 so that was, that was, I thought that was a freaking he would have, he would have worked well as a cop in America, but they would have been like, listen, same tactic, but flip the race.

Speaker 2 You're doing very well.

Speaker 2 You're doing very well. You just got the skills.
You've got the skills.

Speaker 2 You've got the skills we're looking at.

Speaker 2 But now, what we just need to do is flip it. Flip it the other way, and you'll meet your quotas.

Speaker 2 I'd love to know, okay, like

Speaker 2 one of I was thinking, like, one of the things I really admire about you is how

Speaker 2 you have such a giving nature as a person and giving

Speaker 2 in a multidisciplinary way. Like you're a giving person with your time, you're a giving person with your knowledge, you're a giving person with your attention, you're a giving person with your, like

Speaker 2 anything, man, anything.

Speaker 2 You're a giving person.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I was thinking about this the other day.

Speaker 2 I was like, I don't know many people who've experienced more loss than you have, especially especially in like shorts, amount, short amounts of time, you know, and sometimes I'll see your posts online, you know, when it's like your, your mom's, the anniversary of your mom's passing.

Speaker 2 And I know one of the biggest ones was your youngest brother, you know.

Speaker 2 What do you think it is about you?

Speaker 2 that keeps you being generous and hopeful and optimistic despite feeling so many losses, or despite experiencing so many moments that could turn you the other way. Because I honestly,

Speaker 2 I'm not, I don't just admire it. I've been inspired and shocked by it because I haven't seen you hardened.

Speaker 2 I haven't seen you

Speaker 5 hopeless.

Speaker 2 And maybe you hide it. I hope you don't as a friend.
But I would love to know what, like,

Speaker 2 what keeps you going

Speaker 2 in the face of something that could like dim the light in many people's eyes?

Speaker 5 That's such a wow, I've never thought about that. It's such a difficult question to answer.

Speaker 5 You know, I think

Speaker 5 this is going to sound maybe a little crazy, but I remember

Speaker 5 the year I lost my brother, we were in LA with your mother in December.

Speaker 2 We were, you and I. Yes, yeah, yeah.
Yes. This So that was COVID.

Speaker 5 Yeah, that was COVID. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I remember like just having these conversations with her mother,

Speaker 5 like her faith and

Speaker 5 like her resilience, her,

Speaker 5 I mean, there's this profound,

Speaker 5 I think, belief that she has. Yeah, my mom is.

Speaker 2 No, my mom is unwavering.

Speaker 5 It's crazy because I mean, we, and I think we connected in such a nice way, actually, with her mother in that in that very short space of time and should go out and pray and all of that

Speaker 5 and and and i think

Speaker 5 part of what helped me like maybe that moment and have faith also just brought me back okay great there are certain things that i remember when reading when i've read the bible yeah which was because the bible like makes like certain assurances which are things bad things are going to happen yeah so it therefore they're guaranteed to happen and they will happen and so and one of them is like,

Speaker 5 it's like, like, when you walk through the rivers, you will not be swept away. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burnt.
So, the bad things will happen as they should.

Speaker 5 And I think we're not put on this earth for, you know, for pleasantness. And I think that in most people, like, I mean,

Speaker 5 I always judge myself and always feel like

Speaker 5 I

Speaker 5 have little contribution when I think about the gifts that I have, I think, as a person.

Speaker 2 I've always found that crazy about you. I always tell you this.

Speaker 5 That

Speaker 2 I always feel like you minimize how much you contribute to everything.

Speaker 2 Okay, but always.

Speaker 2 And I've always told you this.

Speaker 5 I know you have. That's true.
Like you, and

Speaker 5 you always remind me, which is crazy. And you always say that, like,

Speaker 5 I am more than what I think I am.

Speaker 2 Always.

Speaker 5 Which is, is, and I suppose I need to get to that place. And you always say that I just need to get to that place.
So I just take it and just take that. And maybe I'm not at that place yet.

Speaker 5 And it's, you know, it's going to come. Right.
And, but, and I think for me, it's those guarantees that I know, okay, when you do this, you will be okay. It is, it will happen.
And so.

Speaker 5 I try to arm myself with the knowledge that tough things are going to happen. Okay.

Speaker 5 And therefore, if they happen, i should be prepared but i mean the one thing that i've i was never prepared for my brother it that hit me harder than anything else than anything could possibly why was that

Speaker 5 because

Speaker 5 i it's just like a thing that i thought would never happen i i just did not think that someone close to me would take their own life it was not it he lived with me damn so my brother lived with me what did i miss how could i not see this yeah um i I claimed to love this person.

Speaker 5 Was I so self-absorbed? So these questions I was asking about myself. And I mean, he was going through an addiction, gambling addiction.
I didn't even see it. And he lived with me.

Speaker 5 And I didn't know, which is what eventually led, you know, to him taking his life. And so

Speaker 5 I

Speaker 5 mean, I took some active decisions once I found out that he was gambling and he'd gotten himself into like a hole that he really couldn't get himself out of

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 got him to therapy. And I mean, he worked with me.
I had to fire him.

Speaker 5 I forced him to call my mother. I had to try to kick him out of my place as a threat.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 I mean, can you imagine you have to sit across your brother and tell him, listen, I'm firing you. And then I have to follow him and say, listen, I love you.

Speaker 5 I'm not being mean, malicious. But this is for you to get better.
That in four months, you're going to come back, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 5 You're going gonna come back and work just to get better i gave him the phone i said i'm not gonna call my mother and tell her that i've had to fire you yeah you take the phone and you call and you tell her and he had to call so there were like a series of decisions that i made and

Speaker 5 and what was very crazy i think after for a very long time after that after he took his life and the decisions that i'd made what was that question did i push him too hard too quickly yeah i can only imagine and i became

Speaker 5 very doubtful of almost any decision i was making so it was very hard for me to make decisions for a very long time i was like oh my because

Speaker 5 i felt that the decisions that

Speaker 5 i may have made may have led my brother to make the decision even though i know that

Speaker 5 like logically yeah

Speaker 2 you know but then this i know yeah this whole emotional

Speaker 5 emotional question was just like but what if you know i i drove him too hard? And so I blame myself, you know, for all of that, even though I know that I shouldn't. And there's no blame.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So,

Speaker 5 you know, I struggled. And obviously having these conversations with your mother.
And then like the faith aspect of it for me was very important.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 then, I mean, like one of my favorite scriptures is Job.

Speaker 5 in the bible where job in the beginning he loses god loses everything and loses everything right and then at the end of it after he's lost everything the thing that job says is like naked i came naked i shall depart may the name of the lord be praised and i was like hmm okay uh

Speaker 5 that means we need to find joy in whatever way we can and

Speaker 5 A lot of the time during the losses is trying to find that it's interesting because I don't think that maybe I've found joy myself i feel like people like friends have made sure that i am okay in order for me to have that

Speaker 5 to to have a springboard you know what i mean no yeah i hear exactly what you're saying to find to find myself because um when i think of all my friends

Speaker 2 you or

Speaker 5 siswe

Speaker 5 anele like a whole bunch of people yeah were just so there

Speaker 5 in ways that i i just couldn't imagine and i had

Speaker 5 And I think that's what really it's friends, honestly, sincerely.

Speaker 5 And I don't know if it's a me, I don't think it's a me thing. I definitely think that it's the people who

Speaker 5 probably see the value in me as a person. And because I see that value,

Speaker 5 I

Speaker 5 see that

Speaker 5 there is

Speaker 5 something more to life, I guess.

Speaker 5 I mean, I don't have an answer to, you know, it's a very difficult question because I've never thought about it.

Speaker 2 No, you understand.

Speaker 5 I've literally never thought about it. And,

Speaker 5 I mean, you know, when I think, because also at the same time, you know, he lives with me. It's my brother.

Speaker 5 And then I feel,

Speaker 5 I think the worst guilt I also felt was like, oh my God, is my mother going to blame me?

Speaker 2 Yeah, dude, I can't imagine.

Speaker 5 You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 And what did she say?

Speaker 5 Oh, geez. She said to me, because she was with me all this, through every step of the way, everything I had to do.
She said, you know, like,

Speaker 5 she said, you did more than you should have. And which is essentially what my brother actually said in his own suicide note that he left,

Speaker 5 which was,

Speaker 5 you know,

Speaker 5 you did more than a brother should have done.

Speaker 5 And that's what my mother said to me.

Speaker 5 But that didn't,

Speaker 5 I suppose that doesn't make you feel good, you know, either.

Speaker 5 But you don't feel,

Speaker 2 yeah.

Speaker 5 And she was like,

Speaker 5 you did more than you should have.

Speaker 5 And also, like, at the funeral, she spoke, well, she didn't speak, someone read the note that she wrote, which was the most gracious thing I've ever read in my entire life.

Speaker 5 Which she said,

Speaker 5 I mean, at the end of it, it was so non-judgmental.

Speaker 5 She said, you were tired

Speaker 5 of the things of this world.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 rest, my son.

Speaker 5 You know, and

Speaker 5 which was, I was like,

Speaker 5 I mean, at the end of it,

Speaker 5 I was like, wow, what a thing to say.

Speaker 5 But I'll never forget the evening. of the funeral, everybody's gone, it's just myself, my mother, and my two sisters.
It's just us, us, you know, we're watching TV that we're not really watching.

Speaker 5 We're just sitting there quietly and because everyone is gone. And she said, wow.

Speaker 5 She said,

Speaker 5 in Tosa,

Speaker 5 which means

Speaker 5 I am going to die next year.

Speaker 2 And I got so angry.

Speaker 5 And I was like, don't say that. What are you saying?

Speaker 5 You have other children, you know. And I said this, and

Speaker 5 she was just saying it to herself, you know, she was singing to herself and not even saying to us.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 then, and then she said, Well, my mother, she said, because her mother died, her mother

Speaker 5 lost her son, you know, and she said, Well, mother lost her son

Speaker 5 in 1987, in 87, in 88, she passed away. So I'm

Speaker 5 that's what's going to happen to her. And so, and what I would do after that, I just give her, I just call, because I was in kicked out of COVID.

Speaker 5 So I'd call her like all the time just to make sure that like, you know, she's not,

Speaker 5 you know, she's not

Speaker 5 leaving. She's not leaving.
And I just call, and I think I was calling her for my own selfishness, actually. just to make sure

Speaker 5 she knows that I'm okay, that she's okay. Yeah.

Speaker 2 None of that.

Speaker 5 And then we're fine. And I was like, oh, she's getting better.

Speaker 5 And then she just got sick, you know. And I think,

Speaker 5 I mean, it took like three years for her to get really sick.

Speaker 2 And cancer, she was very healthy.

Speaker 5 She literally just got almost sick overnight. And this cancer, which I think she was, she hid, you know, from us because she really did want to die.
And I think it was heartbreak that really just,

Speaker 5 it was definitely, it was not the cancer. It was like,

Speaker 5 because i almost feel like in many ways she called it upon herself

Speaker 5 and and i think she knew she had the cancer she just didn't tell anybody

Speaker 5 um

Speaker 5 because my mother's a very proud woman you know like a lot of you know uh

Speaker 5 closer women very proud yeah strong woman she's like i'm not gonna

Speaker 5 And so I, I, yeah, it was, it was a,

Speaker 5 it's very difficult. It, it's, it's,

Speaker 2 it's,

Speaker 5 I don't know.

Speaker 5 I don't have the answers.

Speaker 5 I just don't have the answers. But that was a very hard thing to hear her say when she said, I'm going to die next year.
And then there's nothing you can do about it, you know?

Speaker 2 So, yeah.

Speaker 5 So, I

Speaker 5 but honestly, I think for me, it's

Speaker 5 I promise you, if I didn't have the friendships that I have,

Speaker 5 I

Speaker 5 don't know what the faith and the friendships that I have,

Speaker 5 I don't know what would be. I genuinely don't know.

Speaker 5 Because

Speaker 5 they don't

Speaker 5 friendships don't give you a chance to

Speaker 2 wallow, I think, and

Speaker 5 yes, feel the things you need to feel. Yeah.
But

Speaker 5 don't dwell in it, you know.

Speaker 5 I have this quote that

Speaker 5 I wrote myself, to quote myself.

Speaker 5 And what I always say, and I think I said it because, oh, it's a beautiful thing to say. Oh, it sounds so nice, which was

Speaker 5 even in my darkest hour, I glow in the dark. And it's a thing that

Speaker 5 I was like, oh,

Speaker 5 it's a very beautiful thing to say.

Speaker 5 And I wrote this thing

Speaker 5 years ago, long before I experienced the kind of pain that I would feel.

Speaker 5 And I think

Speaker 5 that

Speaker 5 the glowing in the dark is caused by

Speaker 5 people around you who love you.

Speaker 2 So, yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 that's beautiful, Ken. Thank you for sharing that, man.

Speaker 2 You know, it's funny, you and your brother are the reason, like when we started the podcast, Podcasting is weird because

Speaker 2 it's one of the few,

Speaker 2 you know, broadcast mediums or whatever where you're sort of directly tied to the advertising.

Speaker 2 So when you're on the daily show, when you're on another TV show, they just play ads in between. In podcasting, the ads are sort of tied to the show in some ways.

Speaker 2 And so I remember when we launched the podcast, they're explaining the system to me and how it works. They're like, well, you know, people don't pay for the podcast.
And so you do advertise.

Speaker 2 I was like, okay, whatever.

Speaker 2 And you get the ads that come in.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 one of the ads that we used to get on the podcast was sports betting.

Speaker 2 you know, get like all the sports betting, sports betting, sports betting.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 there was one day when I was reading like the terms and conditions of the sports betting.

Speaker 2 And I don't know why you and your brother came into my head. And

Speaker 2 I said to the team after that, I was like,

Speaker 2 we can't do these anymore.

Speaker 2 And they were like, why? And I was like, because

Speaker 2 it's not real.

Speaker 2 Do you know what I mean? You know, when they go like, gamble responsibly.

Speaker 2 that's not that's not a real thing.

Speaker 2 You know, it's not, someone might say, oh, yeah, but I mean, anything can go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we have to admit, there are certain things in life

Speaker 2 that have a far worse ramification than others, you know.

Speaker 2 Like you and I, funny enough in Cape Town, we're talking to a friend from London. We didn't know, I didn't know that she had a gambling addiction.

Speaker 2 It was a crazy story.

Speaker 2 So the UK has this thing where you can put somebody or put yourself really on a list where you are banned from all gambling, all gambling.

Speaker 2 And when you're on that list, they can't take your money, they can't allow you to gamble, they can't. And once you're on the list, I think there's like different phases.

Speaker 2 You can be on for a year, you can be on for three years, you can be 10 years or something, maybe even forever.

Speaker 2 But you, and then you have to call to take yourself off the list, and there's a series of things you have to answer.

Speaker 2 But the point is, she was telling us the story about gambling, and I was thinking of you again and your brother, and I was just like

Speaker 2 the thing about gambling in particular is

Speaker 2 on the face of it, gambling is fun and innocuous, right?

Speaker 2 It's a fun thing. Hey, I bet you this can't happen, I bet you that can't happen.

Speaker 2 Like you were saying with insurance,

Speaker 2 I bet you your house won't catch fire. Bet you, yeah.

Speaker 2 But when people work to make you gamble more than you can and should,

Speaker 2 I don't know, man, it's and I feel like this about like a few products that we've allowed in society and in the world is

Speaker 2 we've made it seem like it's all about the individual's responsibility, but we know that there are certain individuals who can't override that because it's been designed to hack that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, they'll make certain foods addictive, but then we blame people for being addicted to them. But it's like, yeah, but you also made it addictive.

Speaker 2 You know, someone will go like, oh, yeah, but why did they smoke? It's like, yeah, but you know that smoking is addictive.

Speaker 2 And gambling is one of those as well. Like the way they make, the way they, they loop people in with parlays and bets and double or nothing and this and get that.

Speaker 2 And you can get a free, and they always rope you in with free. Hey, hey, come in, start with a free one.
Your free bet. Start with a free bet.
And, and I remember thinking, I was just like, damn, man.

Speaker 2 I was like, am I?

Speaker 2 Because I genuinely, I kept on thinking of like, somewhere out there, there might be some kid, some person who's listening to your podcast. And they go like, oh, wow, free, free bets.

Speaker 2 I might want to join in. And then you you just you don't know

Speaker 2 you know because you've seen the insidious side of it

Speaker 5 it's so funny i i

Speaker 5 it's so fun i've asked myself this question i was like well what if a betting company came to me and said hey influence this i was like well i i i i i know i wouldn't do it right right but but at the same it's so funny there's another friend of mine he called me up at the one time and he was like well

Speaker 5 well he's this betting company has called him and they want him to influence something and he's like he's not going to do it. And I was like,

Speaker 5 I think you should.

Speaker 5 I don't think that you should not do it

Speaker 5 because, you know, of what, but then again, it's because maybe he'd met my brother and all of that. So it felt like too close to home.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 it's such a, I mean, for example, like,

Speaker 5 and this is what I think about. So now,

Speaker 5 Because people die in car accidents.

Speaker 2 I know I'm not trivializing. No, no, no, yeah.

Speaker 5 I'm not trivializing it. people die in car accidents and then there's a car company that's like okay great well some people take their lives in in cars yeah right so does that mean that one should not

Speaker 5 then advertise

Speaker 2 a car so i i hear what you're saying but i and i it's funny you say that i've asked myself this question and i think this is oftentimes how certain products brands or services weasel out of a certain type of responsibility they bring that up as an argument and they've done well to condition us to think that way.

Speaker 2 The difference is, there's no car manufacturer who is secretly trying to make you die in a car accident.

Speaker 5 Do you know what I'm trying to do the opposite?

Speaker 2 There is no car manufacturer who's going, okay, on the outside, we're going to advertise how safe a Volvo is, but guys, secretly, we're going to make sure the brakes don't work.

Speaker 2 We're going to make the car go faster than it says on the speedometer.

Speaker 2 We're going to make sure these people, let's even get them to drive drunk, let's advertise alcohol in the car while they're driving.

Speaker 2 they don't do that so a car accident is an unfortunate byproduct of driving it can happen and over time it is happening less and less and less and less and less because cars have gotten safer and safer and safer and safer and safer right

Speaker 2 the exact opposite is true for gambling

Speaker 2 go and look i don't care where you live in the world Guys, gambling is now the thing. Oh, it is.
Every sports league has gambling sponsors. It's on the side of the boards.
It's on the advertising.

Speaker 2 It's on the... And again, by the way, I'm not even saying I'm anti-gambling.
Please don't get me wrong. Like, you know me, I hate living in binaries, right? I'm not anti-gambling.

Speaker 2 But what I find myself allergic and vehemently opposed to most of the time is when we just aren't honest about the restrictions or the limitations or the regulations we're putting on certain things.

Speaker 2 But then for something like gambling, I go, if we were to find your documents, your real documents that oftentimes get leaked when you go to court,

Speaker 2 would we find that you are actually trying to get people to gamble responsibly?

Speaker 2 Is that what we would find? Definitely not. Do you know what I mean? The same way with social media companies.

Speaker 2 Would we find that you are actively trying to get people to not, you know, become depressed, lose their self-esteem, have a bad self-image?

Speaker 2 Are you actively, because you say it, hey guys, oh, social media platforms, hey guys, don't forget to take a break from your screen and go outside. But are you actively trying to do that?

Speaker 2 Because there's the thing you tell us in public and there's the thing you tell us in private, right? And so I think that's my issue: is

Speaker 2 governments have shown that they are far behind where they need to be in terms of regulating gambling. I'm not going to be a crazy person and be like, no, gambling.
No, I won't say that.

Speaker 2 But I'm like, there are some industries that have found a way to get around the regulations that try to keep as many people safe as possible.

Speaker 2 And the way they've done it is by flipping it and making it a personal responsibility.

Speaker 5 It's your responsibility. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Gamble responsibly. But no one says to them, no, no, no, advertise responsibly.
No one says to them, program your apps responsibly. No one says to them, vet your customers responsibly.

Speaker 2 It's always on you. Gamble responsibly.
And when they do that, what they do is they make you as an individual feel like you are responsible for the thing that has happened to you.

Speaker 2 But in certain industries, we don't.

Speaker 2 There's no airline that can get away with saying, hey, man, choose the one that flies.

Speaker 2 Because if they crash, we come for them. We investigate the shit out of them.
We're like, nah, man, you had three crashes. No, we're going to ground your airline.
Actually,

Speaker 2 then they can't be like, no, these passengers, they must pick better, man. Come on, guys.

Speaker 2 Why? Did you inspect the plane before you came?

Speaker 5 Did they pick responsibly?

Speaker 2 I think there's a real big problem. And

Speaker 2 gambling is one of them.

Speaker 2 And the crypto space is another one.

Speaker 5 Whereby

Speaker 2 your best customer is the one that goes bankrupt on your product. Yes, there's no product that relies on you going bankrupt for the benefit.
Yes.

Speaker 2 With cars, it's not beneficial to a car company for the person to spend all their doesn't, you know what I mean? That's not what their bottom line is based on.

Speaker 2 A lot of these crypto things, and I'll say things because I don't really know them, but and NFT things,

Speaker 2 some Forex stuff, and online gambling, their bottom line is reliant on people going bankrupt. Yes.

Speaker 2 That's what my problem is. I never thought about that.

Speaker 2 That's what I mean. My problem is people have been tricked into thinking that all products are the same

Speaker 2 and all ramifications are equal. They're not.
But they're not. Because some, to your point, Ryan, have been designed differently.
They've been designed to do a different thing to you.

Speaker 2 So I'll give you a simple example. Imagine if they said,

Speaker 2 in the same way, some countries have gone, you have to provide us with documents before you get a phone number. Like, look at what South Africa did, you know, with like just going, like, hey, we just,

Speaker 2 yeah, we just want to know, we can't just have a phone number. We want to see your passport or your ID, or we want to know who has which phone number.

Speaker 2 Bank accounts as well. Yeah, bank accounts for certain things.
You could do the same with gambling. You could say, okay, fine, gambling services, the responsibility is on you.

Speaker 2 If you want people to be on your platform, they have to present you with their bank statements and you are not allowed to allow them to gamble with more than a certain percentage of their income.

Speaker 5 Yeah, like we do with credit.

Speaker 2 Exactly. So the National Credit Act.
Yeah, I think that's a great idea. People can only get a certain amount of credit based on what they earn.
They do that with credit in America as well.

Speaker 2 You have a credit act where they say, like, they go, hey, what's your credit score?

Speaker 2 Sorry, you can't buy this thing. So now, my question to you is: if we allow that for banks, if we're saying that like a bank cannot give you credit when you don't have a good credit score,

Speaker 2 why is it such a crazy idea to ask that of a gambling company?

Speaker 5 That's

Speaker 2 because fundamentally, it's the same thing. We're saying you cannot afford to pay back this loan, so we will not give you the loan in the first place.

Speaker 2 And I know there are many issues with credit scores, and there's other, we can talk about that another time, but the underlying concept is still there and it's sound.

Speaker 2 Why can't we do the same thing with gambling companies? And my question is, why doesn't the gambling company want that? Because a gambling company will be like, no, but I'm like, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 You guys say you want people to gamble responsibly. Let's help you.
So then let's help you. We're going to make sure that all your customers can afford to pay every single bet.

Speaker 2 All your customers are not gambling beyond their means, and you're still making money, and everyone's having a good time. Why would they say no to that?

Speaker 2 Because fundamentally, their product is not about you making money from them or them giving you something. No, their product is about extracting as much wealth from you as is humanly possible.

Speaker 2 And the ultimate conclusion for many people, as you've unfortunately learned,

Speaker 5 and you know, like the, I mean,

Speaker 5 like, like, like most, you know, company brands and companies, and

Speaker 2 like alcohol for example yeah the

Speaker 5 about 20 20 of the customers are responsible for 80 of the consumption you know apparently this is true for everything yeah everything yeah yeah so i've done this for ice cream

Speaker 2 and i took it personally because i am i am the 20

Speaker 2 definitely i buy 80 of the ice cream in fact everyone else in the world you're welcome yeah because of me

Speaker 2 because of me you guys have ice cream well i will literally say this there are five of us here making trevor 20% of us. Trevor has bought 80% of the ice cream we've bought in all of the money.

Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 I'm saying I'm responsible for ice cream.

Speaker 2 Yeah, for all of you. So you're welcome, every single one of you.
But now, okay, wait, wait. So

Speaker 2 that's an interesting question, actually, a segue to ask is like your books.

Speaker 2 How many books have you written now?

Speaker 2 What are you on?

Speaker 5 Now I'm number five.

Speaker 2 Number five. So the first one was

Speaker 2 in my arrogant opinion. That's my favorite title of all time.

Speaker 2 Because of who you are, I think it's my favorite title. Because you're so modest and so considered.
And so the opposite. So In My Arrogant Opinion is amazing.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Your second book?

Speaker 5 My second book was To Quote Myself.

Speaker 2 To quote myself.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 5 And the third book was.

Speaker 5 What is my third? Oh, these things really do happen to me.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 It was a lot of,

Speaker 2 it was like these Uber driver stories, but like way more crazy ones. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And then

Speaker 5 Is The Answers for Me, which was very different.

Speaker 2 And then what made that one different? Because a lot of your books, and I would encourage people to get them because, like,

Speaker 2 you, and I don't say this just because you're my friend. I think it's one of the things I've been lucky enough to learn and love about you is you're one of my favorite storytellers ever.

Speaker 2 And your writing is like,

Speaker 2 I can see that you've been reading newspapers since you were 13. No, because the way you tell a story, the narrative,

Speaker 2 the way you bring things together, you tie stuff together. All your books are like time traveling between now and then.
Now and then. Now and then.
You'll talk about what's happening now.

Speaker 2 You know, some of your books, you're talking about social media, but then you'll be talking about like growing up in the village.

Speaker 2 But then you'll find a way to tie social media into the village.

Speaker 2 And then in another book, you'll be talking about like just life and the way we see each other, but then you'll tie it into something that was or that is. And so what made that one difference?

Speaker 5 So this one I actually wrote during COVID. I live with my brother and now he's not there anymore.
I can't bump into him. I could walk around naked.

Speaker 5 So now he had, so

Speaker 5 I just started asking people questions online.

Speaker 5 One of the, I mean, when I think of one of the questions was,

Speaker 5 what have you never said to your parents that you wish you had said?

Speaker 2 to your parents. Oh, wow.

Speaker 5 And the things that people said were so heavy and then eventually people say to me can you please put the answers like in a book yeah and i put the answer those answers that's why it's very different that's how i'm i always is it a book i don't know yeah so it's that but i'm with you and then uh and then now this one which is uh the the one that i'm um it's i'm i'm working on now which is

Speaker 2 it's done actually it's gone to the printers i think on the 27th i always say like a book is never done it's just gone to the printers

Speaker 2 because i I don't know if you've had that experience. I've had that experience where I just have to give the book in, but forevermore, I go, oh, I could have added this.

Speaker 2 I could have, I should have.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's every, everyone I know of who's ever written a book says the same thing. Yeah.
Okay. So this one, this, this was your latest book, which is coming out.

Speaker 5 Yeah, my latest book, which is coming out now, is called

Speaker 5 Life is Like That Sometimes.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so it's like.

Speaker 5 The pictures are

Speaker 5 life is like that sometimes. And again, I talk about the village.

Speaker 5 and then towards the end, obviously, I talk about, you know, my brother, the journey that he had to go through with him and, and losing my mother as well.

Speaker 5 So, and it's, it's like this journey of life, you know, and I always say that

Speaker 5 when I look at my books, I think I kind of try to just

Speaker 5 post-rationalize them in the sense that I say it is it's almost looking at not recording history, but how we live life while history is happening.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 if, for example, if I talk about,

Speaker 5 so in the village,

Speaker 5 I were to take the bus, we wake up at four, you know, at four with my gran who would then take us to the school and take a bus and da da da.

Speaker 5 If the river was too high, then we have to wait until, you know, so all of those kinds of things.

Speaker 5 That is a consequence of apartheid, for example. So this is how we lived during apartheid.
And then, so what happens when Nassimandela comes out of prison? Oh, they open schools to black kids too.

Speaker 5 Then I go to a school with white people, and people in the township see me wearing a school uniform. This little prime is 12-year-old,

Speaker 5 you know, wearing these clothes that they only see white kids wearing to school.

Speaker 5 And then they will stop you on the street and be like,

Speaker 2 Can you speak English?

Speaker 5 And they're like,

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 2 Like, really?

Speaker 5 And then I yeah, and then they say, okay, speak English then.

Speaker 2 You know, the funnies of it. They used to do that to me, but then I would speak, but then they wouldn't know whether or not it was English.
It was always like the funniest loop.

Speaker 2 They'll be like, you know what I mean? Yeah,

Speaker 2 and I'll be like, yeah, I speak. And they'll be like, okay,

Speaker 2 then I'll be like, hello, my name is Trevor.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, but you don't know if I can speak English because you can't speak English.

Speaker 5 And that's what I was saying. The books are.

Speaker 5 They're saying they're literally was, I mean, like one example I have is like, I'll never forget. I'd broken my arm.
I'd go to the hospital and M Danzale since

Speaker 5 the doctors are just white. I don't know why.

Speaker 2 They're all white.

Speaker 5 And the doctor would have a nurse who translate for them. So now I've broken my arm.
So the nurse is translating for the doctor. Yeah.
And the doctor is like, okay.

Speaker 5 But then I respond in English. I could see the nurse,

Speaker 5 what the heck? This child didn't just respond respond back in English, you know.

Speaker 5 So the doctor says something,

Speaker 5 she translates and I respond in English. So she goes like this woman is so the nurse,

Speaker 2 which means, oh my God, this child speaks English. This child speaks English.

Speaker 5 And she calls like the nurses in the ward and they all come, they surround me while the doctor is kind of working on me.

Speaker 5 So the doctor is like entertained, you know, for all these nurses and they were like so shocked to see a child speaking english that's amazing so again i want to say it's like what i'm saying is that i'm history is happening my nerves

Speaker 5 yeah yeah yeah this is what's happening this is how we're living you know so anyway

Speaker 5 i don't know why i said that but i think that's maybe what i do with my books yeah and i actually i actually think we need that because

Speaker 2 sort of going to the beginning of our conversation

Speaker 2 we're always at the mercy of the time that we're in, and we can only process it through what we think will be a future lens,

Speaker 2 but more often than not, is informed by a past lens.

Speaker 2 You know, so I don't know, I think that's what I've always loved about your storytelling and your books is that it does give some sort of perspective.

Speaker 2 Like, it's one thing for people to go, Nelson Mandela was released from prison, yeah, and apartheid ended, but it's like, yeah, but do you know what it was like for a young boy from a village who now goes to a city because of that?

Speaker 2 that.

Speaker 2 Like the human side of political ramifications is so much more interesting to me because then it stops becoming such a theoretical thing.

Speaker 2 You get what I'm saying? Like I remember a friend of mine who's Palestinian, Mo Amar, great comedian, really funny. But one day he said something to me that really stuck with me.
He said,

Speaker 2 I just wish more people would see stories of Palestinian people so that they would no longer refer to them as just numbers.

Speaker 2 10 Palestinians dead, 100 Palestinians dead. You know what I mean? It's like,

Speaker 2 no, it's not just a number.

Speaker 2 What if I told you a story of a little girl who was going somewhere and then never got there? Like, do you get what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 Let me tell you a story of a family who had a little store that provided for the community and now that building is no longer there.

Speaker 2 And I realize that's the thing that limits our ability oftentimes to care for somebody else. is that we don't know their story.
Yeah,

Speaker 5 that is so true.

Speaker 2 And if anything, I think in having this conversation, I've figured a little bit more of Kayad Langa out:

Speaker 2 you are such a village child

Speaker 2 that you've carried the village with you everywhere you've gone in the most beautiful way. You've carried it into your books.

Speaker 2 Because in the village, I don't know if you remember, we barely talk about, and I didn't live in the village, but I'd visit all the time.

Speaker 2 You know, not your village, but obviously, you know, my family's ones.

Speaker 2 The conversations were never big. Never.

Speaker 2 They were always small,

Speaker 2 but they had the most meaning. And I feel like now in society, and I'm guilty of this as well, even when I'm saying this, I go, we have big conversations that, if we're honest, are often meaningless.

Speaker 2 You know, the small conversations are the ones where you go, where's your uncle?

Speaker 2 How's he doing?

Speaker 2 Hey, man, did you see that...

Speaker 2 the river, have you seen there, there's rocks blocking the river? Hey, man. Have you guys also noticed your mud by the house is, hey, man?

Speaker 2 That's small. Yeah.
And yet it's so meaningful. You know, you know who's sick, who's healthy.
You know who's growing, who's not. You know who's happy, who's sad.
You know, you know.

Speaker 2 And it like connects you to people. There was literally not a single break-in in the village.
I don't know about you. Like, it was an anomalous.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 It was such a crazy concept that someone would steal something from another person because you knew who you were stealing it from.

Speaker 2 And I think

Speaker 2 that's what Kaid Langa is in many ways. You are an embodiment of a village that over time we are losing

Speaker 2 in some, you know, for good and bad. But like we're, we,

Speaker 2 and I think you've carried that into everything. You carried it into your books.

Speaker 2 You've carried it into online. You're one of the few people I know online who treats social media like a village.
No, and I mean this honestly. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You, you like, you talk to people and with people and

Speaker 2 it's like very different.

Speaker 2 You're not even like doing it for likes, like you engage with people and you, and I I think you make people feel like you are real and they are real and you're having conversations with them and you know that whereas most of us engage in social media on a very superfluous level.

Speaker 2 We post a thing we want to see if people have liked it and then we leave it. We walk away.
Did you like my picture? Yes. Okay, good.
Bye.

Speaker 2 Did you like my tweet? Yes. Bye.

Speaker 2 But you are going hey, here's the thing I said. Then someone says why then you're like, I'll tell you why.
Then they go, that's crazy. Then you're like, what about your life? Then they're like, how?

Speaker 2 You asked me about me.

Speaker 2 A person with millions of followers doesn't ask people about them, they just tell people about them. But when they come from the village,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 I think

Speaker 2 that's what it is, my friend. Thank you for this.
This has been.

Speaker 5 Thank you.

Speaker 2 Kaya Langa, my village friend.

Speaker 5 You know, you know, there's a thing that you talked about, the stories that, so in the foreword of my book or the author's note,

Speaker 5 there is one subject

Speaker 5 that kind of prickles me somewhat.

Speaker 5 is that in South Africa, the book buying public is white, mostly white, yeah, majority white, but they don't buy books by black writers. Oh, which is very interesting.

Speaker 2 That's really interesting.

Speaker 5 So they now it's almost like then,

Speaker 5 how do they get, how do we get to know each other if we don't reading stories about it?

Speaker 2 Damn, that's interesting.

Speaker 5 So you're giving your book away to white people. No, they have to buy it because they have more money.

Speaker 2 In fact, double the price of that.

Speaker 2 Oh, there comes his father. Ah, my father.

Speaker 2 I see. You are your father's son.

Speaker 5 So if I'd say for me, if there's one thing that I wish, like, especially for South Africans, is that because black people buy books, buy books by every author?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So I almost feel that that is one thing that kind of really needs to start happening, I think, in this country. If we really want to get to know each other,

Speaker 2 we need to know each other's stories.

Speaker 5 Exactly, like the same Palestinians.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So, yeah.

Speaker 2 We need to meet each other in the village.

Speaker 2 I know. And goes, thank you very much.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 5 This is beautiful.

Speaker 2 Thank you, man. I appreciate you.
Beautiful.

Speaker 5 Thank you.

Speaker 2 What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yameen, and Jodi Avigan.

Speaker 2 Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer.
Music, Mixing and Mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 2 Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now.