Meet Khaya Dlanga – One of My Favorite People [VIDEO]

By the way, can I just say, if you listen to this podcast and you had ideas about Africans,

what I love about Kaya is he really makes you feel like you're talking to an African.

Because it's like, what's his name?

Kaya Lange.

And then he's like, then my friend Olysa Cheshana crashed into my car and my other friend Unsinga.

Then someone listening is like, oh, wow.

And what's the dull child again?

Yeah. What's the dull child? A daunyabile.
And what's the doll child again? Yeah.

What's the doll child?

Yeah.

You see what I mean?

Like, Kaya is full on, full on.

Like, anyone listening to this is like, yeah, this is, oh, my God, this is really African.

This is African.

This is so African right now.

I should have shown them, like, pictures of me in the village.

Kaya Langa. One of my favorite human beings on the planet.
He's a writer, social commentator, social media superstar, but most importantly, and truly this is the most important, he's my friend. We've been friends for over 20 years now and Kayad Langa is easily one of the smartest, importantly, and truly this is the most important, is my friend.
We've been friends for over 20 years now,

and Kaya Llanga is easily one of the smartest, funniest,

and interesting human beings I know.

And so I thought, why not have him on the show?

I mean, if you're going to have a podcast,

you want to share the most interesting people, right?

And that's what today's episode is all about.

One of my favorite people in the entire world, Kaya Llanga. I think you're going to enjoy him as much as I do, but bad news, he's my friend, so you can't have him.

Oh, and that random South African voice you hear in the background, that's Ryan, South

African producer. Don't mind him, but really you should.

This is What Now? With Trevor Noah. This episode is brought to you by Brooklinen.
Your bedroom is not just the place where you sleep. Let's be honest.
It's your sanctuary. And as we head into spring, it's time to freshen things up and level up.
Think about the you that you want to be this spring. Breezier, lighter, with a little bounce in your step.
Well, believe it or not, that can all start with a bedroom refresh. Yeah, leave the bulky, drab winter days behind and make your better space for lighter textures and warmer vibes.
Before you know it, spring will be here, and you'll be easing into the new season.

Shop award winners and fan faves in-store or online at brooklinen.com.

That's B-R-O-O-K-L-I-N-E-N dot com.

And use the code Trevor for 15% off your online order of $100 or more.

That's brooklinen.com. Use promo code Trevor for 15% off your online order of $100 or more.
That's brooklinen.com. Use promo code Trevor for 15% off.
Nordstrom brings you the season's most wanted brands. Skims, Mango, Free People, and Princess Polly.
All under $100. From trending sneakers to beauty must-haves, we've curated the styles you'll wear on repeat this spring.
Free shipping, free returns, and in-store pickup make it easier than ever. Shop now in stores and at Nordstrom.com What happened to you, by the way? What was going on with your Uber driver? Got into this Uber.
Started chatting. The guy's German, this German driver.
So he's speaking, he's driving us. And like, oh, so started chatting.
Oh, where do you work? He works for, he is like an MD or something at Merrill Lynch. Like a...
Wait, wait, what? I know. Your Uber driver? Our Uber driver.
Was like and like was or was was was current he was current at the time at the time yes like a massive executive position you know and i was like so i was like dude what what like explain what's going on here and he says no you know when i come from germany i decide that uh in order for me to improve my english i'm going to become an Uber driver. Oh, you're lying.
I'm going to become an Uber driver and then I'm going to... Please excuse my German accent.
I've actually never heard one before. This is really dope.
It sounds like a new character in the next Black Panther. They have a German character.
He has a strength of the Black Panther. So this guy, and he's like, that's what he does now.
And in order to improve his English. And then he says, but what he also found was that he got to understand nuances about Americans that he got to apply.
Because he was an Yeah He could apply Within the You know For his job I was like oh wow That was for me the most interesting That actually makes sense Very interesting I mean I think there's an easier way to do it But I mean Hey man Kudos to him Maybe Not many people Earn money from their English lessons Yeah Do you know what I mean Yeah Maybe That's like a pretty pretty slick way to do it German efficiency Yeah it really is I always wanted to be an Uber driver That was my dream But you've been a taxi driver True Yeah But I wanted to be an Uber driver Why? So I love driving You do So okay here was the limitation So the limitation Of being a taxi driver In South Africa is

And for those listening

If you don't understand

Taxis in South Africa

Are different to taxis

In most parts of the world

In that

Here when we say taxi

We mean like a mini bus

That travels on a predetermined route

So for me

It felt a little restrictive

I couldn't turn

Wherever I wanted to turn

I couldn't like

You know what I mean

I want to be free Kaya

I want to be doing my thing man

Like a taxi

So I've always wanted to be

All my driver was

Thank you. restrictive i couldn't turn wherever i wanted to turn i couldn't like you know what i mean i want to be free kaya i'm doing my thing man like a taxi so i've always wanted my oba driver was free but it wasn't taking me a while that's who i wanted to be i wanted to be the guy backing up on the highway no i don't know why i always wanted to be like a you know what it also is i okay i love driving um and i also like like efficient driving i don't know how to explain it but i i love the idea of getting people to the place they're supposed to be in the best way possible with the least stress possible oh okay you know uh chauffeur do you like driving i love driving one of my favorite things to do is to drive it's quite far so i really I really do enjoy driving from Joburg to the Eastern Cape by myself.

You know, I thought your answer was going to be no,

because of how many accidents you've had.

But I haven't had many accidents.

How many accidents have you had?

Maybe two.

Maybe two?

Yeah.

In fact, the first accident I had was a taxi driver hit me.

Okay.

And the second one was also another taxi driver in Cape Town.

Bro, how are you forgetting

you crashing into the back

of Polisa's car?

Oh, yeah.

Okay, I don't count that.

This guy only counts accidents

that happened to him.

Yo, right,

let me tell you what Kaya did.

What Kaya did, right?

Kaya had just got a car.

Your first car was a Mercedes-Benz C-Class. This guy had never driven in his life.
Ever. How old is he? How old are you then? I'm like 31, 32.
That's the first time you drove? Yes. Okay.
This is the first time this guy drives. So you even had the three accidents in half the amount of time? That's what you're saying? Basically.
Okay. I made up for it.
Just checking. So K Kai gets a Mercedes-Benz C-Class First car Right Him and Olisa Are driving They're going to some party somewhere Olisa's also got a brand new car Mercedes-Benz E-Class Yeah Convertible Convertible Two of them driving together Having a good time Music going Ladies loving the drive Hey hey Good time What happens? Next thing, we just get a message in the group chat.
Ah, guys, we had an accident. So like, who's we? Me and Kaya.
And we're like, ah, but you guys are in different cars. He's like, exactly.
So it turns out Kaya, it drove straight into the back of Colisa. Oh, man.
And what Colisa always forgets to mention is the fact that he breaks suddenly because there was someone in the passenger seat was directing him and she forgot to tell him, no, turn here. So he breaks like...
Oh, so he slammed the brakes. He slammed the brakes.
But you went to... But also like, okay, the car had this chronic...
Oh, your car? Yeah. Oh, so you trusted the car to do the thing.
Okay. And it always did.
But the problem, can I tell you the problem? One is that three days before it had said distronic malfunctioning. Take it.
I should go take it. And I was like, I'll take it.
I'll take it tomorrow. I kept saying tomorrow.
And then I had the accident. So, yeah.
And then did you take it and I was like I'll take it I'll take it tomorrow I kept saying tomorrow and then I had the accident so yeah and then did you take it? well you know what I would have done if I was you I would have taken it to the dealership and be like guys what happened here this thing didn't stop I had the Distronic on and it didn't stop that's what I would have done yeah so those are my accidents I'm assuming the insurance paid out because now you're admitting to things yeah the insurance paid okay no but i mean that's still that's still you insured for yeah i mean trying to break but he was too late to break yeah and it's an accident that's what you get insured for yes an accident you know but not negligence yeah not negligent well that's what you get insured for in countries where the insurance pays in america actually how is their coinsurance that do we know in america yeah i have no idea because i mean i know like health insurance as we know luigi has shown us it's not great yeah and then fire insurance we saw what happened in california yeah where they like started pulling it from people which by the way i still think is one of the greatest scams in life right is that insurance companies can pull out of a market because they're like we're not

making money and no one seems to ask the question is the purpose of your business to make money or

to insure people well do you get what i'm saying yes and look i know i know people be like yeah

but it's a business i'm like no no no but wait but i'm saying in terms when we start with priority

the first thing it's interesting to me that insurance companies can pull out of markets

Let's go. No, no, no, but wait.
But I'm saying, when we start with priority, the first thing, it's interesting to me that insurance companies can pull out of markets because they're no longer going to make money. Yeah, Coke doesn't change the recipe if it's more expensive to make Coke in that area.
That's what I mean. They continue to make Coke.
Their job is to make money from Coke. Yeah, but they're supposed to make… So their job is to make money from insuring people.
They just go, no, it's no longer… insuring people they just go no it's normal now we won't make as much money then i'm like yeah but you're supposed to insure people isn't the purpose of your business insurance and also like isn't it like it's a bet right because they say because the whole thing apparently like i remember i don't know if i saw this already somewhere where someone said the purpose of insurance the company says, right? Yes. I bet you, your house won't catch fire.

And they say,

I bet you your house won't catch fire and you say i bet you my house will right and so what you do is that like now you keep you're paying right because as long as you don't catch any fire your bet you like i'm i told you that's actually crazy it's a bet it's not and all of a sudden now my house catches fire the bet has come right yeah the bet has come right now you have to pay me because i i win now i have a totally different exactly a totally different idea now that i have that idea yeah the next time i claim from insurance yeah i'm gonna go into the offices cheering yes yes i told you i told you i told you yeah yeah whose house is this Well, I don you. I told you.
I told you. Yeah.

Yeah.

Whose house is this?

Well, I don't have one anymore.

But you know what I mean?

I told you.

So I thought that was such a great concept,

describing what insurance is.

I feel like all, it is a great concept.

I feel like all, not all, I don't want to be broad. I like many businesses in america and then it's starting to go around the world are now less focused on being a good business and more focused on making the money oh 100 and i know some people would say yeah but that's what business is and i don't agree i don't think that's what business should be i think it can be the byproduct of doing something well do you know what i mean? Yeah Because Like even to what you're saying With like Uber drivers and stuff We love to blame the people Who are delivering the food Or driving us around etc But if we're honest about it This is a byproduct Of a company that's growing At an insanely rapid rate And so then what All these companies do is They slowly over time reduce the qualifications that people need to become a driver they so in the beginning I remember when like uber started and all these things started it was like oh you have to have this and your car has to be inspected in a certain way now you get into a car and you're just like yo man how did you get to me exactly no but I mean you know i remember the first time i don't know if any if anyone here remembers the first time they use an uber app yeah i remember the first time i remember the very first time they were going to be launching uber in south africa and they invited me to the launch which was nice okay great and then because they knew you weren't a driver.
No, I had a car. Okay, you were driving by the side.

Yeah.

And so my car then happened like that week or two, you know, happened to go to a service.

So two to a service.

And then I was like, ah, let me try this Uber thing.

So I opened and I was like, oh my goodness.

It showed me the guy's face.

The registration, the car, how far he is.

This was revolutionary to me.

I was like, this is incredible. And anyway, he arrived.
He gets out of the car. There's only Uber Blacks at the time.
They used to open the door. And they used to open the door for you.
They had water and mints in the back seat. And then they closed the door for you.
And I was like, this is incredible. I was so impressed by them.
And to such an extent that I don't know if you know my friend Unzinga.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unzinga, so she sees me being dropped off at Cesar's Capello.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm being dropped off.

Uber driver comes out, opens the door.

So when she sees me, she says, Kaya.

And she genuinely thought this.

Genuinely.

She said, Kaya, are you a spy? And I'm like, like so i was jokingly i said yeah i mean i'm a spy and she believed this for the longest time no ways uber was so prestigious so pristine that they've taken away all the nice things but the price remains i mean but that's the that's the business model that's what all these companies have done with capitalism no but that but that's what all these companies have done Especially from Silicon Valley Their business model is Grow as quickly as possible Get as much money as you can Scale as fast as you can And then most importantly Decimate the competition So you come in You price the product Way lower than the rest of the market So that's what they did in most markets They killed the the taxi prices so in new york in london in germany and other places they did that then some cities fought back you know and then once they own the market then they start hiking the prices and to make things worse they start throttling the drivers so now if you drive an uber there were many people who bought ubers because they were promised like oh if I buy the car i'm gonna earn this much much a year They used to have like guarantees on billboards even They'd say earn a minimum guaranteed a minimum of And i think at the time it was like 75 80 000 a year And then once they had enough capacity and they had a stranglehold of the market Then they started ditching drivers you don't earn as much from a So it's pricing changes. The riders pay more.
And now we're all dependent on it. And this is why we should never allow monopolies to take place.
You know, it's interesting because businesses always have this grand philosophy about why it exists. There's no profits when you're looking at their vision statement as a company.
No, nothing. But the ultimate reason they exist is to make a profit.
Is to make a profit. Not really to provide the best service that they claim they want to provide.
Yeah. I think, to be fair, many of the people who started these companies in Silicon Valley, I think believed in the beginning that they were setting out on a noble mission.
I genuinely believe that. But bro, it's very hard to beat Wall Street.
Oh yeah, that's very true. As soon as your company is a publicly listed company, all you're doing is trying to maximize shareholder value and that's it.
Like your mission is no longer to your customers, your mission is to the shareholders, right? And so I think fundamentally it's like, hey man. I mean it's it Like your mission Is no longer to your customers Your mission is to the shareholders Right And so I think Fundamentally It's like Hey man I mean it's It's pretty sad Because You know There's actually There's a flip Man why don't I switch off my phone Yeah well you must switch off your phone You're addicted to your phone There is a great quote You must switch off your phone I'm glad we brought you here This is actually an intervention This has nothing to do My phone is on I can Google for you This has nothing to do with You thought this was a podcast We were just hosting an intervention To stop Kaya from being on his phone Yo, this guy I checked his phone the other day 15 hours of screen time a day Oh my goodness I thought mine was bad Guys, do you know how many hours are in a day? There's 24 In case you were wondering.
Okay, I found it. What's the quote? The quote is by Carl Sagan.
Let me just go quickly. Carl Sagan.
Let me find. So I don't know if Carl Sagan was just like a physicist.
And he says, I have a forebiding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time, when the United States is a service and information economy, when nearly all manufacturing industries have slipped away to other industries, when all some technological powers are in the hands of very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues. When the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or unknowledgeably question those in authority, when clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide almost without noticing back into superstitious darkness.
The dumbing down of America, so this is not just about America, I think it's about the whole world really. The dumbing down of America is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content and in the enormously influential media.
The 30-second soundbite, thank goodness your podcast is way longer than that, now down to 10 seconds or less. Lowest common denominator programming credulous presentations or pseudoscience and superstitions, but especially of a kind of celebration of ignorance.

And he wrote this in 1995.

So before we talk about the quote, can I just say,

normally when people say there's a quote I love,

what they mean is like,

to be or not to be.

It's normally like every dog has his day.

That's what I thought the quote was going to be.

This man just read us a chapter and said, you know, there's a quote that I love, guys. It's called Genesis from the Bible.
It really was. Okay, this is what, like, maybe I never really understood this about you because you are a paradox.
For a person who loves social media as much as you do, you also love the antitheses of social media as much as you do do you know what i mean because you've written books and you read books but you also have 15 hours of screen time and that's that's terrible because i don't spend as much time reading as i used to oh so it's affected you as well exactly Because I don't read as much as I used to. And I don't think that like reading like little snippets is not, I don't, because it doesn't delve into the subject matter.
And it's like, it's the same thing as watching something on TikTok where you get like, you know, pseudo knowledge. Yeah.
You know, where you kind of suddenly feel like, oh, I'm well informed because, well Well I found out that For the first time That actually The planets don't Yeah Revolve in one You know It's an oval But I don't know Why that happens But then You know I was worried When they said TikTok was going to be banned But I was happy Because I thought You would like Live a new life Actually this year this year I am. Don't even finish that sentence.
You're going to lie. I am trying.
Oh boy, here we go. Attempting to be actively, to try and read more than I did.
Okay. Yeah.
That one. I thought you were going to say something like I'm going to use social media less.
No, no. I definitely want to read it a lot.
Did you guys know by the. Don't read it on your phone.
Yeah. This but yeah this guy this guy is you know when you talk about like deeply entrenched in social media kaya langa the man i'm sitting opposite now was the first african to have correct me if i'm wrong a million views on youtube yeah ever guys before yo before we knew what youtube was as a This is is like maybe 2006 2007 Yeah this guy Kai was like On YouTube And he was loving it And he was killing it Yeah man that was Why did you stop by the way? It Twitter Couldn't put your phone down Also you know

Actually what happened as well

Was that

I got asked to start

Writing columns

And so

In newspapers

Yeah in newspapers

You really are

You just oscillate between

Like old school

New school

Old school

You're like

Guys I'm leaving YouTube

Why?

There's this new thing

Called a newspaper column

And I have to step into it guys

Kaya where are you going?

Guys it's the future

Trust me now. These newspaper columns.
Ah, I think everyone in the world is going to be reading this. But Kaya, you've got a million people on YouTube.
Yes. But there's 22,000 on the newspaper who might want to hear what I have to say.
What a grand decision. So literally, that's what happened.
And I was like, oh, flip, I have this, because I have to have an opinion about something this week. Yeah.
You know? And then I, I was like, I just didn't have the time. You know, maybe YouTube wasn't paying you at the time.
Oh, no, they weren't. Oh, yeah, there was no money on YouTube.
And it took a long time for them to pay anyone outside of America. Oh, yeah, that's true then africa came very i was like ah okay what's the point i even got an email from steve chan who was one of the co-founders of youtube crazy so because i there was this because youtube used to do this thing where if they thought a video was like incredible yeah they would put it like on the front page oh Oh yeah, they used to do like a featured video.
When you were on the front page of YouTube, it was like a thing. You'd made it.
And I was on the front page and I was like, wow, I wake up. I'm getting all the subscribers.
Boom, boom, boom. Subscribers.
I was like, what's going on? What's going on? And I happened to be, well, the first African, you know, to be featured. So I got in.
And all these big YouTubers, obviously, they see you, you've been featured. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They all start mailing you and they want to collaborate. And it was like this crazy freaking thing.
And then Steve Chan sent me an email saying that, you know, along the lines, it's so great to see people from other parts of the world contributing to the conversations and being creative in very different ways you know yeah yeah to americans and we love having you here and i've watched like a lot of your videos and i was like god damn so i sent him an email and i was like responded wow i was like this is the first email i ever got from a billionaire that's all i had to say to him and he's like nah he's hardly a billionaire because I think I think they just sold to Google I'm not sure but I think or they were about to but one of the two so I yeah it was crazy then I just got an email from Frequent Steve Chan oh I like that yeah but your life is littered with that you know I was thinking the other day I was like you are if someone was to ask me They'd go like You know who is Kaya Or what is it about Kaya That fascinates you Guys People will always speak to Kaya As if They've always known you They'll speak to you Like You'll always find yourself In a conversation With a stranger And I've always wondered Like is that Is that how your life Has always been Or Or was that something You noticed Is it something You worked on Is it something I don't think There's anything That I I noticed Until people said So I didn't know It was a thing Yeah For example My brother You know My late brother He used to say When I was younger And used to visit me in Cape Town, I lived in Cape Town, he'd say, damn it, I hate walking with you.

Because if we're going to the mall, let's say we're going to Cavendish Square when I was in Cape Town, and they'd be like, oh, God damn it, we're going to have to, you're going to be stopped by people, you're going to start chatting to everybody there and all of that. and I didn't know this

and do you know when I noticed

that maybe I do

stop and talk to a lot of people along the way

was when I started All of that And I didn't know this And do you know When I noticed That Maybe I do

Stop and talk

To a lot of people

Along the way

Was when I started

Hanging out a lot

With who?

Colisa

Colisa

Because

Now for the first time

I was the one

I had to wait

That's so funny

Now I was

Like

I was like

Oh flip

This is what people mean

When they say that

I stop and talk

You know

But you do

You stop and you speak

To everybody

And everybody speaks to you

And I want

Do you think you got it

Thank you. Do you think you got it from your grandfather? Because like, tell me a little bit about your grandfather.
Because I know some of the loose stories we've shared here and there. But like, who was your grandfather? Wow.
My grandfather, his name. If you're South African, right? And you're trying to give someone a job.
Yes. And just like read someone's name And it's a wife's only job My grandfather would get the job Because his name was Alfred Kaiser Boyce Wow Alfred Kaiser Like the German Kaiser Alfred Kaiser Boyce Boyce Boyce Damn It-Y-C-E.
Boyce. Yeah.
Damn.

From my mom.

I know, right? Damn.

It sounds very fancy, right?

No, it really does.

Alfred Kaiser Boyce.

Alfred Kaiser Boyce.

Send in Alfred Kaiser Boyce.

Sounds like a German Uber driver in America.

Actually.

Damn.

Wait, wait.

Where did he get that name?

So he got that name

From

While they gave him

Alfred Kaiser

Because he went to school

So like

Back in

Okay

Because in the 20s

So the school

They gave him

The white teachers

Yeah

The same way

Mandela got Nelson

Nelson yes

Wait so did your grandfather

Also have

Because Nelson

We know had

Rolissa

That was his name

Then they were like

No no you're Nelson buddy

I don't

Did your grandfather have

Do you know

No

He was always

all of the Wait, so did your grandfather also have, because Nelson we know had, Rolissa Atla was his name. Then they were like, no, no, you're Nelson, buddy.
I don't. Did your grandfather have? Do you know? No, he was always, I always knew him as Alfred Kaiser Boyce.
He didn't have any other name. But surely he was given another name when he was born.
This is a good question. I have no idea because all his sisters have, in fact, one of his sisters, her name is hilarious.
Nunofo. Ngunofo? Ngunofo.
Basically means the fourth one. Four.
Her name would be Four. Imagine your parents calling you just a number.
First kid. Okay, Stephanie.
That's wild. Ngunofo.
Ng. Okay.
But like, for example, like I didn't know her name until the funeral. Yeah.
Because, you know, in the village, like I was saying, like you didn't know older people's names. No.
You just didn't know what their names were. All you knew was like, okay, the grandchild from there and that's their name.
So when the parents send to you, they'll be like, they'll never say like, you call me like, say, go to Patricia's house. No, they would never.
They'll say, go to Trevor's house and talk to Trevor's mom and say, this is what I want. I struggle to explain this to my, let's say my American friends or any of my Western friends, because I'll meet their parents, right? And oftentimes they say it's white people.
And then they'll go, hey, Trevor, how you doing? And I'll be like, oh, nice to meet you, Mr. Johnson or whatever.
And they'll be like, oh, come on. My name is Brad.
And I'm like, yes, Mr. Johnson.
Then they get angry. Like, hey, hey, I'm not, my father was Mr.
Johnson. I'm Brad.
Then I'm like, no, your son is Peter. You are Mr.
Johnson or i will then call you peter's father yeah and it's hard to explain it because where we where we come from you never referred to an older person by their name you didn't even know their name you didn't know everything was in relation to so you would go oh hello kaya's aunt oh hello kaya's grandmother yes oh hey kaya's father yeah how are you today You know what I mean So my grandfather He was not the chief in the village But he was He controlled All the cattle in the village Not just the village Just to create some of the imagery here for you When Kaya says village I've learned now Like some people You know I have friends now from England Because I've moved up in the world And They've They grew up They grew up in villages as well But it's not village like We in village Alright so When If you're trying to picture village here If you've watched Black Panther Before they go through The magical dome That covers Wakanda You know how like Wakanda looks But before the spaceship Flies through that dome This is where Kaya grew up So he's on the outside Of the dome He's on the outside Of the dome Before the technology Yeah He's with like the cows And the sheep And like the mud huts Yes And this is This is how you grew up I just want people To understand this So when you say the village No No plumbing. No plumbing.
No plumbing. No nothing.
Fetch roofs. Yeah.
And all of that. Mud huts.
Yes. Yeah.
Okay. So when you say village, this is the village you mean.
Cool. Yeah.
So he was a custodian of all the cattle. I'd say around maybe four or five villages around us.
Damn. And so if anyone, like let's say Trevor, one of your cows gives birth birth You have to come and report And say that My cow So and so Is giving birth And then my grandfather Registered the cow So he was the DMV of cows Yes That's what he was That's what he was Yeah Yeah So he registered the cow Yeah If a cow died You have to come and tell him Yeah That's a write off Yeah When your car's a wreck You have to report it to the government as well yeah yeah so he was this guy in the village and and so he he has like this you know authority in because he i mean cows are worth and now he's controlling the wealth of the village if you could say that that's really powerful yeah so he was very powerful and so a lot of people would come to him for you know um counsel for advice and you know all sorts of things my home was very busy so it was never quiet because of this ah okay this you see this is starting to explain it's because now that you're saying it yeah because and then i mean because the dogs in the house with a a gate and people were scared of the dogs so they'd call my name then i'd have to freaking get out the house go open you know go open the gate fetch whoever you know is yes so when i was walking anywhere with my grandparents people would be talking to them and obviously because they want to be seen to be nice to the children too they would speak to me you as well.
They would speak to me as well. And I suspect that's probably what kind of, I gained that kind of, but also a village is like, everybody talks to everybody.
And maybe I still have that kind of mentality. Yeah, you do.
Where it's like, okay, oh, there's so-and-so, I'll say hi because I know them. You don't talk to them for a reason.
You just talk to people for the sake of. Yeah, you just talk to them because they're there.
Because they're there. And I think that's probably where I get that from.
And maybe that's why in most of my books, I can't help but write about the village. Which I love.
Yeah. It's a lot more profound for me than on the surface.
You know, when you go, we greet people just because just because they're there You know I often think to myself One of the things I miss most When I'm not in South Africa Is the fact that we all acknowledge each other I mean even in the smallest ways You know our greetings are plural You know you walk into a room You greet everybody Sanbonani I see all of you Yes Do you know what plural. Yes.
You know, you walk into a room, you greet everybody. Sanbonani.

I see all of you.

Yes.

Yes.

Do you know what I mean?

Yes.

It's molueni.

You know, it's like for everyone.

Sagubona.

Sagubona.

We see all of you, you know?

Yeah.

And you don't realize how beautiful that is as a concept until you don't have it, really.

And you travel the world and in

many places people get into an elevator you know a lift and they don't greet anybody and people get

into a bus nobody greets anybody people get into the train in new york when i first got there i

greeted people when i first get on the train kaya i've never seen you know like you know if you want

to be a creep step into the subway and then when the doors close be like hello hello dude i was

Thank you. Kaya I've never seen You know like You know If you want to be a creep Step into the subway And then when the doors close Be like hello Hello Dude I was such a creep But I didn't know that You're not You don't creep It's almost frowned upon You know And It's such a wonderful feeling To be seen Yeah It's very different It's almost know, when you actually said, you know,

Sunny Borna,

when he,

yeah,

I actually,

I don't know if I,

I'm thinking about this or I've seen it

or I've read it somewhere,

but it's almost like

when it says Sunny Borna,

because if I'm,

the one greeting you,

right,

Sunny Borna,

it sounds like I am,

because it is me

who's saying Sunny Borna,

so I'm saying we see you,

right? So it almost feels like I'm saying me and my ancestors and everybody who comes with me sees you. So we're greeting you, right? So that's why I think what you just said is very profound, that our greetings are plural, right? So it's everybody who comes before me also observes who you are as a human being whereas like in the in the in the western culture it's starting to creep in where you know people are starting not to greet and all of that but what usually happens so like i'm busy and i run into you and i'm asking for directions i woke up to so i don't know who you are you're a stranger and i come to you and they say, Zengulubu's like, we'll book AFC.
And then we're like,

and then you... I woke up to someone, I don't know who you are, you're a stranger, and they come to you and they say, Zengulabu is like, you know, Wubu KFC.

And then we're like, and then you, older people love doing this to you.

And they're like, Sakubu Anaput.

Yeah.

And they greet you.

Oh, and you're like, oh man.

Yeah.

They are really saying that, oh, you didn't greet me, basically, by saying that.

They're forcing the greeting.

And then now you come down and you have to greet them. How are you? I'm fine.
Fine. Thank you.
All right. Oh, what did you want? Oh, okay.
Directions to KFC. And then they start offering you, you know, the directions.
And they tell you they don't know where it is. So, and I think there's something really actually very, very profound about that.
I think we take it for granted because we live here and we experience it. But every single person, including white people, they always say when they go overseas and they come back to South Africa, they talk about how.
They're like, you know what I miss about South Africa? They said people don't greet everyone, like they don't greet anyone else. And here we do.
I think one of the more beautiful aspects of South African culture Holistically Is that we're a culture of seeing people So a simple example I noticed was Three different versions of the same thing When I was in India I live in New York And then I'll come to South Africa. It's the way people respond to homeless people.
In India, people either completely ignore a homeless person or they do this hand thing where they dismiss them. Like hardcore.
For me, it's hardcore. Obviously, it's an Indian thing so I'm not judging it but it's just like, I was like, wow, damn, that's hardcore.
In New York, people won't even look at somebody so there'll be like a homeless person on the street and asking for money and people just walk past. They don't make eye contact.
You avoid it at all costs. And it's crazy to say this, but I found myself being really proud of South Africa because when I would come back after being away for long stints, I realized how like people would look at homeless people and greet them not give them money always i'm not saying it's like everyone is like super altruistic or anything and then the funny thing is they would even have a conversation with the homeless person you know so the let's say a homeless person will come to your window and then they'll be like hey hello pozar anything anything then you'd be like ah nothing nothing i remember.
This is one of the funniest conversations I've ever had. It changed how I drive, by the way.
Because now I always have, like, I always have some change in the car or something. Just because of this guy.
I'll never forget this. I'm driving my car.
And I think I was driving a Range Rover at the time. And I get to the traffic lights.
And the guy comes to the window. Then he's like, hey, hello, Boza.
Hello, anything, please? Hello, anything? And I was like, ah, nothing, baba, sorry, nothing, nothing. Then he's like, nothing.
I was like, no. Then he's like, ah, you finished it on the car.
Yo, bro. The way he said it.
The way he said it, he's like, yeah, no, hey, just hey Just finish on their car now, eh Yeah, hey I'm sure it's tough now I'm sure Brian, he just And he didn't like judge He didn't fight with me He didn't anything Just had like the rest of a conversation with me When I drove away Maybe it's because of Like in a I know this is going to sound strange But in a weird way Because he saw me Yeah He reminded me that I have to see him Oh, wow That's very true Do you know, I know this is going to sound strange, but in a weird way, because he saw me. Yeah.
He reminded me that I have to see him. Oh, wow.
That's very true. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
Yeah. Like he actually reminded me that like, yo, man, just because the guy is homeless, just because the guy is begging for money, doesn't mean he's not a human being.
You'd be like, sorry, like I don't have, you know. And they'll say, I'll show you next time.
They do say that. Yeah, I'll show you next time.
And you like And they're like Yeah next time But like Yeah They have an acknowledgement Of the fact That you could also Be going through something That means you don't Necessarily have Disposable income At this moment in time Yeah That's very true actually It's very It's incredible Because there's few There's actually I've never experienced That in another country I've never Ever experienced In a country where someone asks me for money and I don't have,

and you know,

now it's worse

because we're cashless.

But I've never experienced

that where I go,

I don't have anything on me.

Only in South Africa

will a person say,

I know it's fine.

You know what?

Maybe next time you'll,

good luck to you, my man.

Yeah,

except for that.

Except for that.

I don't know.

I think I mentioned this

to you a few days ago.

This tweet, right? There's someone who tweeted about the way at an intersection. Yeah.
Intersection and the traffic lights weren't working. Or robots, traffic lights, they're not working.
And the guy's directing traffic. And so it goes to the guy, you know, at the front of, you know, the guy in front.
Yeah. And kind of asking for money.
And the guy says, don't have money while the guy was talking this homeless guy with his fingers just put his fingers and this guy's he put his fingers down this guy and this guy tweeted about this this experience and basically He doesn't know what to do because this guy just freaking shoved his fingers down. Because I wasn't giving him money.
That was like, I mean, that never happens. But it happens once in a while But It's my It's my favorite My favorite story It's terrible It's the favorite thing I've heard this year What would you do? You know It's one of those things Where I'd I I think I'd drive off But No I'm saying What would you do As it happens though As it happens As it happens So would you close your mouth? I And make him uncomfortable Oh my god You'd be like You'd be like No way That's what you think You really think so No no That's what you think This is you behind the microphone Never This is you behind the microphone Never At that time I think The first thing I would think about Is like Let me not swallow I need to find The closest garage I need to go to I promise you That's what I've been thinking about And this sounds terrible And elitist But I would be thinking I need to go and get mouthwashed Should I go to my doctor? I don't know Why would a random stranger do that? That's I was going to say.
I was going to say, the fact that the person is homeless might be a slight heightening of it, but I think it's the stranger. Yeah, but also like...
It doesn't matter where it is. It's so random.
Why? That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.
Why would you do that to me? I think it's more just about a stranger. Because if I was on a...
Even if I was in an airplane and someone walked past my row and then said to me, excuse me, can I have your drink? And I was like, no. And while I was still talking, I put their fingers in my mouth.
I'd have the exact same reason. They wouldn't pull their hand out of my mouth and I'd be like, oh, at least they weren't homeless.
No. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I wouldn't think that. No, that's true.
It's more the stranger and the fingers that come with that stranger going into your mouth. But what if they were from economy? I mean, that's sort of like homeless.
Can I tell you what's funny about this? It's just like how powerful the human mind is. Is that like, and not to get too graphic, but it's funny how people will go out, put their tongue in a stranger's mouth that they've never met.
Like they'll go to a club or a restaurant or a bar. They'll put their tongue in a stranger's mouth that they've never met Like they'll go to a club Or a restaurant Or a bar They'll put their tongue In a stranger's mouth That they've never met Right They will go home With that person And then put their mouth In other places On that person Okay But then if somebody Comes and put their fingers In your mouth Because you didn't choose it This is how powerful Consent is As a concept Wow That is very true Yeah because if you If you You chose it Now it's not crazy

Yeah

Because I don't know

Surely you've had

The strangest fingers in your mouth

But

Technically you have

No but they're not a stranger

At the time

How long have you known them?

Maybe a couple of hours

You see

You see

So it's like yeah

We had a conversation

It's all just in the mind

There was consent

Like you said

Yeah no

It's all about consent So now they're like Because now I you said. Yeah, no, it's all about consent.

So now they're like,

because now I'm like, what is in their finger?

Like, what's there?

Right, it doesn't matter.

The mouth is a really,

you'll be shocked at what your mouth can handle.

No.

You can clip that, by the way.

You can put it somewhere.

But it's true, guys.

For me, the worst part of that story would be

if I liked it. I think that's the best part of the story.
Or something. For me, the worst part of that story would be if I liked it.

I think that's the best part of the story.

Or something.

Why is that the worst part?

That would be the best part of it.

You don't have to tell people that you thought.

No, you don't have to tell anybody that you liked it.

But now you know which intersection you're driving to every single week.

Hoping.

You just be there all the time.

Your window.

Just window down, mouth wide open. I have no money.
We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. This episode is brought to you by National Education Association.
NEA's Read Across America campaign celebrates a nation of diverse readers

with recommended books, authors, and teaching resources

that promote diversity and inclusion.

However, certain politicians are banning books

with characters representing diverse perspectives and experiences,

including books about Martin Luther King and The Trail of Tears.

But let's be honest. All students deserve access to diverse, age-appropriate books.
So, help us celebrate and protect the joy of reading for all of America's students. Learn more at readacrossamerica.org.
This episode is brought to you by Audi. The all-new, fully-electric Audi Q6 e-tron is a huge leap forward,

featuring effortless power, serious acceleration,

and the most advanced tech of any Audi ever.

Experience technology that puts you center stage with a panoramic digital stage.

Plus, you can add an optional screen for front-seat passengers so they can stream my best work.

I don't know. new center stage with a panoramic digital stage.
Plus, you can add an optional screen for front seat passengers so they can stream my best work or anything you want to watch.

It doesn't have to be mine.

The Q6 e-tron is not just a new EV.

It's a new way to experience driving.

Learn more at AudiUSA.com.

Always pay careful attention to the road and do not drive while distracted

of everyone i had ever known in my life you were the only person and i mean the only person i knew who was closely following American politics

A, before it became, let's say, popular, for lack of a better word.

And before I went and did The Daily Show.

And I was watching The Daily Show.

Yeah, you were watching The Daily Show before I knew what The Daily Show even was as a concept.

I remember when I said, I'm going to do an episode of The Daily Show.

You lost your mind.

You were like, wow, wow, this is so great.

And I was like, all right, I guess.

because I had a

Thank you. I said I'm going to do an episode of the daily show you lost like you lost your mind you're like wow wow this is so great and I was like all right I guess because I by that time I'd appeared on Jay Leno I'd appeared on Letterman I'd known of those more yeah but you were just like the daily show like when did your passion for American history and politics begin like why because this wasn't a thing that's popular in South Africa Yeah Do you know what I mean? It's not like it was a trend Well I think it's because I was such a loner You know as a child It still doesn't explain Kaya Oh god I'll explain A lot of kids I was alone Do you know what I did? I played Mario Brothers You know what I'm saying? Like I didn't sit at home And go like Hmm I wonder what Richard Nixon thought Before Watergate happened No

I was playing Mario Brothers

No I think it's because

It was reading

Yes but how do you get

To those books

I also read a lot

The Wind in the Willows

Yeah

Little Prince

Dr. Seuss

What kind of child

Growing up in a village

Remember

Remember you

Where people had pets

Like cats and dogs

Yeah

You were on a first name basis

With sheeps and cows

Yeah that's true

No and that's true

So you were like

Rolling with sheep

And cows

Thank you. You, where people had pets like cats and dogs, you were on a first name basis with sheeps and cows.
No, and that's true. So you were like rolling with sheep and cows.
Yes. And then you go, and I'm also going to really get into Reagan and Nixon and Bill Clinton.
Then I had to go to the township, you know. So like at 13.
So I'm living with my mother. And then my mom kind of starts saying important things are really happening in this country.
Like Mandela and all of that. And so she starts, she literally forces me to start reading the newspaper.
In fact, in my school, like I was the only black kid in my class, for example. And then in the school of about 800 or 900 kids, there must have been five, six black kids, you know, in the school.
Did you know all of them? The black kids. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I mean, at school, yes.
Yeah, but I'm saying, did you know them? Yeah, yeah. Were they male, female? They were, I think they were both.
Yeah, definitely both genders. Did you date, did anyone try and set you up with them no we're too young so so nobody kind of tried to do anything at the time so we yeah and then the the school library because i was always in the library there was and before the library opened i would go and read the newspaper the daily dispatch and i just go and read and read and read until seven o'clock and the school started 730.
And then I'll read the newspaper, the Daily Dispatch. And I'd just go and read and read and read until 7 o'clock until the school started 7.30.
And then I'd read the newspaper until 7.30. But Kaya, sorry to cut you off there.
You could barely speak English. Yes, because I'd learned to speak English two years before.
But you were reading everything in English. Yes, I was reading everything in English.
This is really inspiring to me. I was reading this.
And then in high school, they had like Time Magazine and Newsweek. And then I'd read.
So you go to a new school. Yeah, I go to a new school.
Okay, got it. Okay, I see what happened here.
So this moves from the village. Now you've learned English two years ago You're in an English school

They've got Time magazine

They've got Newsweek

No Garfield

I used to read Garfield

Oh, you did?

Because they had Garfield in the newspaper

I like that you were like a

This guy was a full-time adult, part-time kid

Essentially

That's what I did

And then they'd have the

Thank you. You were like, this guy was a full-time adult, part-time kid, essentially.
That's what I did. And then they'd have the, you know, Newsweek and then politics.
I was like, who's this Bill Clinton guy? Okay. Oh, interesting.
And then I'd read about him and Hillary Clinton and George Bush and all of those guys. I'm like, oh, Ross Perot.
And I'm like, wow, this is fascinating fascinating and so then that gets me like a lot very interested in american history and um and then i think what also got me into it was because the oj simpson trial happened and then i was fast i could not wait for newsweek or time magazine every week and i'd be there reading about the trial because they're detailed information about this trial. You are 13 years old while this is happening? Yeah.
And so I'm reading this case and I'll never forget, like I got the highest mark for an oral in the history of the school thanks to this for me reading, just randomly reading. And I'll tell you how this happened.
So I had the OJ Simpson trial was going to happen. And then he was acquitted.
And our teacher gives the entire class assignment. And she says, okay, class, this is your subject, a controversial subject.
Whatever you choose, everybody does a thing. It's abortion.
It is, you know, democracy, apartheid, you name it. All of those things, right? And then I go and I speak on, like, the following day, I'm the first one to speak, you know, in front of the class.
And I start off, and I say, and I start off by reciting what the jury said, you know, at the beginning. It's like, we, the jury, find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, not guilty of the above-entagled action, penal code, whatever, whatever, of the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson, a human being, right? And then I say, it's very fascinating to me that white Americans, I say this specifically, and now remember my entire class is white, except for two other black kids in the class.
And it's fascinating to me that white people believe um conveniently believe that you are innocent until proven guilty yes right but they're so angry that oj simpson has been found not guilty of this but at the same time why do is it so important for him to be guilty if they believe that you're innocent and i must have spoken for a minute and a half making that statement when my classmate started interjecting asking me questions just like no but kai you can't say that he used to hit he used to hit her and cops would come as i guess i understand that's true what he was doing was doing was terrible. No one should be hitting anybody.
It's evil. But it doesn't mean that he did kill her.
Right. So according to the evidence that was presented and what the jury said, they said he is not guilty.
So and the teacher also asking me questions. The period ended.
I didn't finish my oral. So I thought, oh my goodness, I'm going to get zero because then the next period comes.
I mean, like the next day, someone else and someone else. And I was like, miss, I didn't finish my oral.
So no, it's fine. And then I got like a hundred percent.
And she said, because your subject was so controversial. That everyone got involved.
That everyone got involved. It never happened with with anybody else and it was because i had so much specific detailed information that i could give everybody answers because i was reading this about this trial every week okay but now do you think oj did it or do you still think he was innocent i i don't know i really don't know if he did it but Yeah but what do you think Why do I think I'm not saying you know Why do I think

Because nobody knows Because I understand 13 year old Kyle was like This man is innocent No no I suspect There was a 13 year old I suspect that Parading through the school And was like This man is innocent You know like He's the Nelson Mandela Of football in America No but I I struggle to think That he was He did it Okay So you Like now Based on The trial I was following At the time I struggle But now I'm assuming you've watched OJ Made in America. Yeah, Made in America.
Now, when I watch that and I'm like, hmm, but I don't know what that perspective was, right? Because someone is saying something from a different lens. Yeah, okay.
So they have a perspective when they're making that. But when I think about 13-year-old me, I was like, I don't think he did it.
But after watching that, I was like, hmm,'t think he did it. But after watching that documentary, I was like, I think he did it.
After watching that documentary. Okay, so.
That's how I got to American. No, no, no.
Yeah, I'm loving it. And so that actually prompts a question that I have for you.
This is a puzzle that I've been playing with in my head oh sorry quickly sorry don't

forget your puzzle but also another thing uh how i learned this is crazy how i learned which city is in is in each state in america was by watching at the time it was wwf wrestling Because

They would say

From Austin, Texas

Storm Michael because they would say from austin texas stone michaels and then his song would come all from detroit michigan big daddy cool diesel and i was like oh and i literally learned oh okay but i didn't know what was the. I tried to figure out what is the thing they mentioned first

and the thing they mentioned second.

And then I figured out, oh, it's a state and it's a city.

You know what makes this more impressive is that you're doing this pre-internet.

Pre-internet and post-village.

Yeah, no.

It's thoroughly impressive.

Okay, so here's the puzzle.

And I think you are uniquely positioned to help me answer this

because I don't think we'll figure it out,

but maybe we can sort of get close to it.

I was thinking the other day,

oftentimes when people exist in the time that they're in,

they are the worst people to judge the time that they're in.

Right?

So nobody can judge the future because it hasn't happened we can all judge the past if we're present but the people of the present are the worst judges of the present because they're in it and i think about this with everything that has happened in time so you look at world war ii i'm often shocked at how most of the world especially the united states didn't want to do anything Even though Hitler was on his journey To wipe out Jewish people Do you know what I mean? Like it's pretty crazy when you read And then you see American articles From back then And they're like Oh yeah you know We gotta let Germany be Germany And do their own thing And we're not involved In what other countries are doing And we spoke to Hitler And he said it's not that bad So we're moving on and you're just like wait this was an actual real thing and now it seems completely obvious right but at the time they were like no we're making the prudent decision to not get involved in another war that doesn't involve us etc etc right I mean there's countless examples throughout history whether it's slavery whether it's you know and obviously there's people for and against at the time but it becomes hindsight that gives you a certain level of clarity that allows you to judge i think more accurately but never perfectly because it even it will change and so the the thing i've been playing with recently is like if you want to talk about a master class in branding trump does the thing that makes him look good i almost think that i don't but i feel like there are going to be two trumps right the trump of the first term and the trump of the second presidency damn i'm second term you made me feel like Terminator 1 and 2 I'm not even joking I don't know why When you said that in my head I pictured Terminator 1 and Terminator 2 Terminator 1 was the bad guy And then Terminator 2 was now the good guy So he's The first one He's like He is He didn't think I was going to win I don't think he wanted to win You first time you know but then now he's in this thing now he's the president okay great he has he's unprepared so and but now he understands the levers of power he just gets it i mean i remember reading um something about what makes great politicians yeah like great politicians are great at stagecraft. So they understand, for them, they understand the theater.
They're actors, basically. That's what it was.
I remember reading somewhere where someone was describing Mandela as a great actor. And they use that example when he walks out of the treason trial and when he's found guilty and he makes that speech.
And where he says, what's that speech? Remind me somebody, my Deva speech? Very famous at the end. Yeah, we all know it in the room.
Come on, guys. We all know it.
You're the guy who's going to remind us. I know.
Well, he basically is basically saying that, that well if you find me guilty yeah it is an ideal for which i am prepared it's an ideal i want to live for but if needs i'm prepared to die if needs be something yeah but anyway we'll play it we should just play yeah i have cherished the idea of a democratic and free society in which all persons will live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an idea for which I hope to live for and to see realized.

But my Lord,

if it needs be,

it is an ideal

for which I am prepared

to die.

And then,

when he walks out of the,

he's,

he knows the last day of the trial, he's wearing his corset, traditional warrior outfit because he knows that he's going to come across as defined. Every single picture in the world will have him as this guy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's this kind of, just a position between like this oppressed heroes fighting against these people dressed like this.
And, and like just throughout his life and i think that donald trump is a natural actor he's phenomenal i can't think of a single american politician in the history of the united states that's better at stagecraft than trump no i agree with you for better or worse but no the stagecraft. One of the things I've heard about multiple people who've been in Trump's orbit is he, in a weird way, Trump is more honest about the game of American politics than most American politicians are.
Have you seen when Trump even said when he'd be on stage and he'd be like, you know, folks, I can do it. They say he's not presidential.
I can be presidential. I can be.
It's so easy. I can stand yourself.

Oh, hello, everybody.

So good to be here.

I can do it, folks.

You want me to be presidential?

I can be presidential.

But in the craziest way, he was.

That's what I think I find fascinating about the man.

Is that Trump says the thing that he's doing out loud, but the people don't hear it or process it. I think it's because it's so honest and transparent that they can't believe it's real.
I don't know what it is because no one does it. You're not supposed to do that.
Yeah, I guess. And then he does it and then it's like, okay.
And he likes to be liked. He loves to be liked.
I I think this is the number one drug And I think this is why there's I suppose a lot of these taxi Olds have figured out about him It's like, just like him And then everything is fine Well, I don't know if everything will be fine Well, I mean Because here's the problem, right? Here's the problem The one problem that I think people Will face with Trump trump is this yes he likes to be liked but if everyone likes him and all these people have conflicting interests he is an enemy as well yeah but even so if everyone likes him those people still have conflicts of interest for with each other like they have conflicting interests so now whose like comes before the other person's like there's people who've come and kissed the ring with. And then Trump is like, yeah, this stupid person came and kissed the ring.
They came here. They let me put my fingers in their mouth.
You know what I mean? There's no guarantee. But like, I don't know.
This is why I oscillate between the two thoughts. On the one hand, I think to myself, Trump has all of the ingredients to be a dictator.
On the other hand, I go, his incessant need to be liked means he can't be a dictator. Yeah.
Because dictators can sort of operate outside of the realm of being liked. Yeah.
Do you know what I mean? Yes. They don't care.
Yeah, they go like, I don't care. Not that they don't care about it.
No, they don't care. They don't make you like him.
No, think so? You'll act like No I'm saying You have to act like you like him They'll make you like him Oh yeah that's true Do you know what I mean? But that's what I'm No but that is what I'm saying I'm saying there's There's two sides right You can love being liked so much That you have all the ingredients To be a dictator So you go I'm gonna create the reality That I exist in That means I'm always liked Or you can Like being liked so much That you go like I would never be a dictator Because I want the people to like me And with him you don't know But what I do know is Americans firmly believe And this is something I both love And also sometimes find amusing About America and Americans Is they truly believe it is impossible that it can happen in their country.

Like impossible, Kyle.

I mean, there are many countries that didn't think dictatorships

in their countries

and it happened.

I mean, I think,

speaking about Trump...

I stand to be corrected on this,

but I remember reading this once

that most dictators

were voted in.

Yeah, they were.

People forget that

they didn't take power.

Yes.

They were voted in and they just kept power. Putin was voted in.
Mugabe was voted in. You think of anybody, they were voted in.
What's fascinating to me about him is that I think, maybe I'm wrong about that he likes to be liked. Yes, he likes to be liked.
But he likes to be liked by people he disagrees with but respects. Yes.
And craves their adoration. But I think that for him, it's that.
And I think that's why these tech guys, he respects them because, well, they're rich. They're running big companies.
I also think oftentimes we forget that the way we're processing someone or something is in relation to us and the us can be anywhere right one of the more eye-opening experiences i ever had was when i went to the middle east and i actually like really got to spend time there and i was in qatar and i was in the uae so you know dubai and and abu dhabi and i was in oman and all these places and it was amazing to see how differently people thought about Trump there yeah like I thought in those places people would hate Trump more than anyone because Trump was like I'm doing the Muslim ban right I realized that I had done what I think a lot of people do I had assumed or even believed that I embodied the offense That the other person was experiencing Okay When they themselves weren't And you know we see this oftentimes in society Where somebody will be offended on behalf of others More than those people themselves are offended Right Like remember when Remember when Tom Hanks' son Put out that video speaking Patois from Jamaica?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Right?

And like full on.

And he's like fluent.

And he's like doing it.

Bruh, bruh.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Damn what y'all can do for it.

And he's like, he's nailing it.

The guy's crushing it.

Not like what I just did now.

This guy's nailing it.

He's absolutely nailing it.

Dude, and then Americans were like, this is disrespectful.

He must be canceled.

This is blah, blah.

And then Jamaicans came out and they were like, they're like, yo, this boy is completely fluent. He knows us.
Everything he's saying is correct. They're like, you guys are offensive.
Why don't you want him to speak Patois? And they were like, no, but you guys don't understand what he's doing is wrong. And Jamaicans were like, no, it's not wrong.
There's also a lot of white Jamaicans. Yes.
That's just how Jamaicans speak.

Yes.

For me, learning the lesson was actually that with Trump. Is that I was more offended than the people in the actual Middle East who I was.
And I didn't speak to everyone, obviously. But I spoke to a lot of people about this.
And I was really shocked at how they saw it differently. was a man in I think we were in Qatar who said this to me really really like you know he said it and it shook me in the right way we're arguing about Trump and presidents and all of this and all of this and all of this and I was like yeah but and then he said to me said Trevor he said I think sometimes maybe you are making mistakes you know he said you see in america people are worried about uh uh whether the politician was polite they are worried about the trump maybe saying it the wrong way and saying he said i don't worry about it so i worry i worry about what you're doing he says because look my friend george bush was very polite but look at my region he said look at what george politeness did to my region.
He said, so if you are going to bring me somebody who is rude, but they are not going to bomb the Middle East, I will take that. And I was like, damn.
Do you know what I mean? It was like a, I think. Like Trump does make you question what is more important.
And it's not that it is a binary yeah but is it is it the is it how is it how you present the thing or is it what you actually do yeah i think it's you know so if you like to go back to the like you know a homeless person asking for money what is better to smile at them and tell them you don't have money or to take money and throw it at them? And I know people will be like, no, but neither one. No, but I'm saying like, if you had to choose, if there were only two options, which one would you choose? Would you choose that somebody smiles and says, I don't have money and walks away and is very kind or nice? Or would another person comes with a wad of cash, throws it at the homeless person and then walks away? Trump yeah I think he's that guy.
I think we need to ask the homeless person. You think you need to ask the homeless person? That is funny.
There's a verse in the bible. Yeah.
Parable. Jesus.
So Jesus talks about a son. Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ. Okay just checking.
Just checking. So Jesus talks about, I forget the exact parable, but what he says in this parable is a father asks a son to do something, right? And then the son's like, no, I'm not going to do it.
It's rude to his father. Ask another son and the son says, yes, I'll do it.
This polite son doesn't do the thing. The son who was not polite, he said he's not going to do the thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Does a thing that the father asked him to.
Okay. Right.
So it feels like, and then it seems like then Jesus kind of praises the son who said, I wouldn't do it. but he did it, but does, does a thing.

So,

again,

it feels like that parable.

Oh,

so then Jesus,

Jesus disagrees with you,

just so you know.

I mean,

that's what the J in Donald J.

Trump is.

Yeah.

Jesus disagrees with you.

But Donald Jesus Trump.

Don't go anywhere,

because we got more

What Now?

after this. Don't go anywhere Because we got more What now After this By the way You've started going to church now right? Yes Yes Like why? I would love to know why So why? First of all Because I assumed That you weren't religious Because of all the years that I've known you And then now you go to church

Yes

So, well, as you know, I lost my mother last year

So which was, like I was saying now

In two days time, it's going to be exactly a year

How old was your mom when she passed?

She was, she just turned 70

So she's just, yeah

I mean, it's not young, but that's young

Especially considering how she was

Thank you. she just turned 70.
So she's just, yeah. I mean, it's not young, but that's young.
Like, especially considering how she was, you know, she was super active and, you know. So then I'll never, I mean, I remember driving, you know, to the funeral with my sisters.
So they're in the car at the back and I'm driving and I'm leading the funeral procession to the church And I said to them Guys You know that thing I don't know how to call it But the thing that you get here That lump in your throat That lump in your throat So you feel like I'm just And I'm trying to not cry As I'm talking to my sisters And I said guys I'm not going to talk I'm not going to speak at the funeral I know I'm supposed to But I'm not going to do it I can feel i won't be able to do it damn once i'm in front of the church it's it's gonna be impossible and they're like no you can't do that you know you know she would have wanted you to like you and i was like guys because you and your mom were close yeah and then i'm like i i can't i can't you know so then we get to the church and they like to plunk you right in front of the freaking coffin yeah so now it's like oh my god this thing is right here now it's more real and that that feeling was even more profound it's like there is no way i know i won't be able to speak but then there's women that went my mom went to church with they're out there they celebrate through celebrate through singing. They're just singing.
And they keep coming. They keep looking at me.
There's this old woman. She's 93 or 94.
Old and tiny. Really, really.
I know not many people are smaller than me, but she was like really. And she keeps going like this and she's singing.
And they're so joyous. And then I got up and I joined them and I started singing every single time.
And I felt this, I think I almost felt her presence, my mother's presence. And I felt like God's presence.
And I was like, wow. At that moment, I was feeling so broken and weak and unable, I was like, wow, I know I can speak now.
I know I can speak. And I got up and what, in fact, I didn't even make the speech that I'd prepared in my mind.
I literally got up and sang. And which I would never do in public.
And I urge anybody not to try to hear me singing in public and I started singing what did you sing? there's a song by a very traditional cluster song that was made famous by also a cluster singer Umandis the Yankees and he's which is like this is my mother who is raised who has yeah who has raised me and and then there's a big photo and i was holding this photo of her and singing this song and then i just started speaking quite joyously about her very, very short. And then I was like, next week when I go back to Jolberg, I'm going to church.
And that was it. And that's when I started, that's why I started going to church.
I'm assuming you grew up going to church. Yeah, absolutely.
Because we all did. So when had you stopped going to church? I stopped probably going to church maybe 2006.
This is when you got a million subscribers on YouTube. It is, right? Viewers.
Yeah, viewers. Yeah, a million views on YouTube.
And then you were like, who needs God? Who needs God? I am God. In fact, that's how I first got into church on Cesar, actually.
YouTube. Wow.
Yeah. I think we mailed each other.
Wow. You see him to his DMs.
Hey. I'm not going to be subscribed.
No way, he's really. I know the whole competition.
It's gobo bean. Oh, my goodness.
Yes. Yeah.
Wow. So, it is.
Kaya, didn't Doja Cat also email you? Oh goodness like a child child doja cat yeah that's like before she was doja cat doja kitten didn't she email you it's it's a wild thing uh she did mail me um but i i mean she was like 13 um she sent me an email because obviously because she was watching my videos on youtube as a 13 year old and she knew us from south africa so she sent me an email she said hi my name is amela zandi and my father is dumisani he's this famous actor in south africa she was in sarafina i'm trying to get hold i've never met. I want to get hold of him.
And would you find a way to get me in touch with him? And I felt so, my heart, like, I was like, she's 13. She's like a child.
Yeah. She's gone to this extent.
And I was like, ah, I'm sure I can find him easily, right? Because my cousin is an actor. He probably knows him.
So I sent, I contacted Shomla. Do you know this guy? Yes.
Where is he? How can I get in touch with him? And then he was in Namibia doing whatever. He says, this is the way he is.
Try to get in touch with him. Told him, gave him the information about his daughter and he just just never responded and then i uh i sent an email back and i told him like um i'll do what i can but i i don't know what to do and then one of his daughters who lives in soweto but different mother also sent me an email having seen the fact that like because I wrote a post I think I wrote a post a blog you had posted a blog about this yes and then I posted a blog and where I asked about and I was like well if anybody knows where he is and then one of his daughters also sent like a an email and said okay this is my email address please send my email address to to amala and then they would get in touch and there was a last there was the last thing i i did that was my last interaction with them and i felt very sad because they never got in touch um obviously up to you know to this day as far as i know so and that was long before so doja cat she was just like a 13 year old girl watching youtube videos you know i wonder what it is about you that that makes people feel like you can or would be willing to help them because it's even in hearing the story i think to myself like i know i've done that with you in some ways i think all of us people in general they'll turn to you as kaya and be like kaya can you help me do this can you help me find this can you help me figure this out can you help me i and i i'm you think it's his smile yeah but i think it's more there's something i don't know I don't know what it is About you Because you You also have a yearning To help people Do you know what I mean I remember when I was Going to appear On the daily show You were one of the people I called Was like yo man I'm gonna go on the show You're literally The person who For me knows the most About American politics.
I need your help. You know? And you didn't, you were never like, no.
In fact, when we met, this is how I met Kaya. When we met, so Johannesburg slash South Africa has a very small middle class.
So if your family was lucky enough to move in some way you you sort of knew each other as people and i remember i would go out to parties or you know brides or what americans call barbecues or event whatever it was nothing fancy by the way because i wasn't in entertainment in any way and everywhere i would go i would see this guy this short charismatic human being with a dazzling smile always laughing always talking to people and i'd always see him and you'd greet me and i'd greet you but i didn't know you and but you just greet and you just like you you have welcoming eyes you know and the other thing i noticed was oftentimes you were either surrounded by businessmen in suits or stunning models and i mean just like gorgeous like and i mean surrounded and i think it was more noticeable because models are generally like six feet tall yeah and then you were like you know what i mean so it would it would be like this it was it was it was it was quite a sight to behold and i remember one day this is when i plucked up the courage in cape town and i came up to you and i said hey man i don't know who you are i don't know your name but i said but you are surrounded by the most beautiful women i've ever seen and i said i just want to be your friend i said please can i just be your friend i remember yeah i remember and you yeah upstairs and you laughed and you were like yeah okay and you were just but i mean like most people would be like what this guy was like yeah okay well i guess and he was like we can be friends and we literally this is how we became and we exchanged numbers and you were just like all right we can be friends and it's so funny and those are i was with american models and i don't know because i never got to meet i know you did all i got was our friendship by the way i never met a model because of you i know but i'm happy but i was just it's just funny to me that like that's how i met you oh that was funny because because actually what happened there was that because i remember like this friend of mine uh was like yo he lived in new york but was in joeberg yeah and he said i have these friends of mine who are in cape town uh the models they don't know where to go. And they see you're in Cape Town.

Can I show them?

I was like, shut up.

That's how I ended up with those models.

You see, that's what I mean.

Kaya's always needed by people.

And if you need models

to need someone,

if you have models

who need someone,

models who don't know where to go,

you call Kaya and he'll respond.

I think that's the old Kaya.

He used to bring models. Now I just bring stories about Uber drivers.
I'm old. Oh, man.
Yeah, but I think it's like a beautiful quality. In the same way I think of the stories of your grandfather.
I haven't actually't actually I've never heard many stories with your with your dad actually oh yeah what well crazy thing about my dad is we was when we were celebrating my sixth birthday yeah in the village the news came that he died literally we're having a party great party like six birthdays were like a big thing

you know and guava juice you know all over the guava juice you knew you're made with a guava

juice so they were the guava juice and then because the village there were no telephones

yeah this is the 80s got a phone call uh they sent a telegram and from the shop someone walked

from the shop to my grandparents house to deliver this the telegram to say that well they just

Thank you. they sent a telegram and from the shop someone walked from the shop to my grandparents house to deliver the telegram to say that well they just received the news that my father had passed away and I think it passed away for a few days because no one for some reason they couldn't identify he was but the one story I mean there are two stories that I remember that have been told about my father.
But my favorite story about my father was how petty he was. He was, it was like, but petty, I think for a reason.
So his father, my grandfather, not Alfred Kaiser Boyce. Okay, yeah, yeah.
Paulus Lange. Paulus.
Paulus. Paulus Lange.
Paulus. Paulus Lange.
So, he had, he had a post in Vitz. I don't know how this happened.
So, it's a story here. I've never, I'd never met him.
So, he had a post in Vitz where he was somehow in the, in the chemistry department and he was a lecturer or something. I don't know how.
Lecturer. And then the professor he was working with, the white guy, basically said, yo, I just found out that you're about to be arrested.
You'd better leave. Go to Lesotho.
So he runs off to Lesotho. So this is your grandfather on your dad's side? My dad's side.
Okay, got it. So he's a lecturer at a South African university.
Yes. He was suspected because he taught chemistry.
They said that he was teaching freedom fighters how to make bombs. And that's what they were saying.
And was he? Maybe. I don't know.
Okay. So this was long before your time.
Yeah, this was your grandfather. I have no no idea So that's why they accused him of Because teaching chemistry And his colleague tells him I've just found out That you're about to be arrested Yes I'm assuming by the apartheid government By the apartheid government Okay Yeah And so now he flees the country So he flees the country Goes to Lesotho Okay got it And he ends up in Lesotho And he gets a teaching post He's teaching at the university They call They're called University of Roma.
So he's there like- So he's in exile now. Yeah, he's in exile.
So he's there for a few years. And I mean, my grandmother used to tell stories about the people who used to go to the house, like Mandela, Sobuku, and all of those people that'd be there with him.
But one day they received a letter. I actually have a copy of the letter from the Minister of Home Affairs of Lesotho, basically saying that they have received word that his continued presence in Lesotho presents an imminent danger to the safety and security of Lesotho.
And therefore, they give him 24 hours to leave the country. Who's this letter coming from? From the Home Affairs of Lesotho.
But they were pressurized by the South African government. Wow.
So the apartheid government says to the government of Lesotho, you guys are harboring a terrorist. A terrorist.
Yes. Which is your grandfather.
Yes. And if you don't harbor him, then Lesotho is now an africa yeah things will happen and so he left before like the deadline and obviously back roots so that so he could lose lesutu as well lose lesutu leaving my father and you know his kids there and he leaves back roots but then somehow the cops find him he's in south africa now yeah he's left the suit they find him arrest him torture him so he's tortured and to such an extent that he becomes um well doesn't get almost half paralyzed yeah yeah okay and he's and they're like well they can't take him to court because there's nothing he can do now they've tortured him so much and eventually you know about a year or two later he dies and so my father this is what i'm saying this is my favorite story about my father so my father then becomes a traffic cop like in the 80s he becomes a cop a traffic cop and he gets called to the head offices of him you know now it's transkiana another country this is the region where he lives so now he is he's someone that he has no idea has been called there he goes to the top bosses and they ask him like they say they bring a file they're like they open the file they say explain yourself why is it that every single traffic fine is to a white person you You don't fine any black people.

All these fines are just white people.

And he says, well, most people who drive cars are white.

And they said, so you're saying that black people don't,

they don't commit traffic offenses.

And he would fine them for the tiniest infringement.

And basically he was given a warning that if he continues to be filed and then he quit.

Wow.

So it was his own little rebellion, I think, against the,

I think his protest against what happened to his father.

Kudos to him.

I like that.

That's literally the only story that I know of him.

Damn, I like that. Because I was too young to know anything about him.
So I thought it was a freaking... He would have worked well as a cop in America, but they would have been like, listen, same tactic, but flip the race.
You're doing very well. You're doing very well.
You've got the skills. You've got the skills.
You've got the skills we're looking for. It It's natural But now what we just need you to do Is flip it Flip it the other way And you'll meet your quotas I'd love to know Okay like One of I was thinking like One of the things I really admire about you Is how You have such a giving nature as a person And giving in In a multidisciplinary way Like you you're a giving nature as a person and, and giving in, in, in a multidisciplinary way.
Like you, you, you're a giving person with your time. You're a giving person with your knowledge.
You're a giving person with your attention. You're a giving person with your, like anything, man, anything.
You just, you, you're a giving person. And I was thinking about this the other day.
day i was like i don't know many people who've experienced more loss than you have especially in like short amount short amounts of time you know and sometimes i'll see your posts online you know when it's like your your mom's the anniversary of your mom's passing and i know one of the biggest ones was your youngest brother you know what do you think it is about you that keeps you being generous and hopeful and optimistic despite feeling so many losses or despite experiencing so many moments that could turn you the other way Because I honestly I don't just admire it I've been inspired and shocked by it Because I haven't seen you Hardened I haven't seen you Hopeless And maybe you hide it, I hope you don't As a friend But I would love to know what What keeps you going In the face of something that could Dim the light in many people's eyes Wow I've never thought about that It's such a difficult question to answer You know I think um this is gonna sound maybe a little crazy but i remember the year i lost my brother we were in la with your mother in december we were you and i yes yeah yes this was so that, that was COVID. Yeah.
And I remember like just having these conversations with her mother, like her faith and like her resilience. I mean, there's this profound, I think, belief that she has.
Yeah. My mom is.
No, my mom is unwavering. it's crazy because I mean we and I think belief that she has Yeah my mom is No my mom is unwavering It's crazy because I mean we And I think we connected in such a nice way Actually with our mother In that very short space of time And she'd go out and pray and all of that And I think Part of what Helped me like maybe that moment And her faith also just brought me back Okay great there are certain things that i remember when reading when i've read the bible yeah which was because the bible like makes like certain assurances which are things bad things are going to happen yeah so therefore they're guaranteed to happen and they will happen and so and one of them is like um it's like like when you walk through the rivers you will not be swept away when you walk through the rivers, you will not be swept away.

When you walk through the fire, you will not be burnt.

So the bad things will happen, as they should. And I think we're not put on this earth for pleasantness.
And I think that most people, I mean, I always myself And I always feel like I have Little contribution When I think about the gifts That I have, I think as a person I've always found that crazy about you I always tell you this That? I always feel like you minimize how much you contribute to everything Okay Okay. But always.
And I've always told you this. I know you have.
That's true. And you always remind me, which is crazy.
And you always say that, like, I am more than what I think I am. Always.
Which is, and I suppose I need to get to that place. And you always say that I just need to get to that place.

So I just take it and just take that.

And maybe I'm not at that place yet and it's going to come.

And I think for me, it's those guarantees that I know, okay, when you do this, you will be okay.

It will happen.

And so I try to arm myself with the knowledge that tough things are going to happen okay and therefore if they happen i should be prepared but i mean the one thing that i've i was never prepared for my brother it that hit me harder than anything else than anything can why why was that because i it's just like a thing that I thought would never happen. I just did not think that someone close to me would take their own life.
He lived with me. Damn.
So my brother lived with me. What did I miss? How could I not see this? I claim to love this person.
Was I so self-absorbed? So questions i was asking about myself and i mean he was going through an addiction uh gambling addiction i didn't even see it and they live with me and i didn't know which is what eventually led you know to him taking his life and so i i mean i took some active decisions once i found out that he was gambling and he'd gotten himself into like a hole that he really couldn't get himself out of. And got him to therapy.
And I mean, he worked with me. I defy him.
I forced him to call my mother. I tried to kick him out of my place as a threat.
I mean, can you imagine you have to sit across the rug and tell him, listen, I'm firing you. And then I have to follow him and say, listen, I love you.
I'm not being mean, malicious, but this is for you to get better. That in four months, you're going to come back, you know? Yeah.
You're going to come back and work just to get better. I gave him the phone.
I said, I'm not going to call my mother and tell her that I've had to fire you. yeah you gotta come back and work just to do to get better i gave him the phone i said i'm not gonna call my mother and tell her that i've had to fire you yeah you take the phone and you call and you tell her and he had to call so there were like a series of decisions that i made and and what was very crazy i think after for a very long time after that after he took his life and the decisions that i'd made what was that question did i push him too hard too quickly yeah i can only imagine and i became very doubtful of almost any decision i was making so it was very hard for me to make decisions for a very long time i was Because I felt that the decisions that I may have made may have led my brother to make the decision.
Even though I know that, like logically. Yeah, logically you know, but then there's still the emotional question.
So the emotional question was just like, but what if I drove him too hard? And so I blame myself for all of that, even though I know that I shouldn't, and there's no blame. So I struggled, and obviously having these conversations with your mother, and then the faith aspect of it for me was very important.
And then, I mean, one of my favorite scriptures is Job in the Bible where Job in the beginning he loses God has a threat to him and loses everything and then at the end of it after he's lost everything the thing that Job says is like naked I came naked I shall depart may the name of the Lord be praised and I was like like, hmm, okay. That means we need to find joy in whatever way we can.
And a lot of the time during the losses is trying to find. It's interesting because I don't think that maybe I've found joy myself.
I feel like people, like friends,

have made sure that I am okay in order for me to have that,

to have a springboard.

Do you know what I mean?

No, I hear exactly what you're saying.

To find myself

because when I think of all my friends,

you or Siswe,

Nolisa, Anele,

like a whole bunch of people were just so there in ways that I just couldn't imagine. And I had, and I think that's not really, it's friends, honestly, sincerely.
If, and I don't know if it's a me, I don't think it's a me thing. I definitely think that it's the people who, who probably see the value in me as a person and because i see that value i see that there is there's something more to life i guess i mean i don't have an answer to you know it's a very difficult question because i've never thought about it I've literally never thought about it And I mean You know when I think Because also at the same time He lives with me, it's my brother And then I feel I think the worst guilt I also felt I was like oh my god Is my mother going to blame me And what did only imagine you know what i say and what and what did she say oh jeez she said to me because she was with me all this through every step of the way everything i had to do she said you know like she said you did more than you should have and which is essentially what my brother actually said in his own suicide note that he left, which was, you know, you did more than a brother should have done.
And that's what my mother said to me. But I suppose that doesn't make you feel good, you know, either.
But you don't feel... Yeah.
And she was like, you did more than you should have. And also like at the funeral, she spoke, well, she didn't speak, someone read the note that she wrote, which was the most gracious thing I've ever read in my entire life.
Which she said, I mean, at the end of it it it was so non-judgmental she said you were tired of the things of this world and rest my son you know and which was I was I mean, at the end of it, I was like, wow, what a thing to say. But I'll never forget the evening of the funeral.
Everybody's gone. It's just myself, my mother, and my two sisters.
It's just us, you know, we're watching TV that we're not really watching. We're just sitting there quietly because everyone is gone.
And she said, she said, she said, which means I am going to die next year. And I was so angry.
And I was like, don't say that. What are you saying? You have other children, you know, and I said this, and she was saying it to herself, you know, she was saying it to herself and not even saying it to us then and then she said well my much she said because her mother died her mother lost her son you know and she said my mother lost her son uh in 1987 in 87 in 88 she passed away so i'm that's what's going to happened to her and so and what i would do after that i just give it i just call because i was in case it was covid so i'd call her like all the time just to make sure that like you know she's not you know she's not she's not leaving she's not leaving and i just call and i think i was calling her for my selfishness, actually.
Just to make sure she knows that I'm okay, that she's okay, all of that. And then we're fine.
And I was like, oh, she's getting better. And then she just got sick.
And I think, I mean, it took like three years for her to get really sick. And cancer, she was very healthy.
She just got almost sick overnight and this cancer which i think she was she hid you know from us because yeah she really did want to die and i think it was heartbreak that really just it was definitely not it does not the cancer it does like because i almost feel like in many ways she called it upon herself and and I think she knew she had the cancer. She just didn't tell anybody because my mother is a very proud woman.
You know, like a lot of, you know, also women, very proud, strong woman. She's like, I'm not gonna...
And so, yeah, it was...

It's very difficult.

It's...

I don't know. I don't have the answers.

I just don't have the answers. But that was a very hard thing

to hear her say when she said, I'm gonna die next year. And then there's nothing

you can do about it, you know?

So, yeah. when she said I'm going to die next year and then there's nothing you can do about it you know so yeah so I

but honestly I think for me it's

I promise you if I

didn't have the friendships that I have

I

I don't know what the faith

and the friendships that I have

I don't know what would be

I genuinely don't know

because

Thank you. I don't know what the faith and the friendships that I have.
I don't know what would be.

I genuinely don't know.

Because they don't,

friendships don't give you a chance to wallow, I think, in, yes, feel the things you need to feel.

Yeah.

But don't dwell in it. I have this quote that I wrote myself to quote myself.
And what I always say, and I think I said it because, oh, it's a beautiful thing to say. Oh, it sounds so nice, which was, even in my darkest hour i glow in the dark and it's a thing that i was like oh it's a very it's a very beautiful thing to say yeah and i wrote this thing um years ago long before i experienced the kind of pain that i would feel and i think that the glowing in the dark is caused by people around you who love you.
So, yeah. That's beautiful, Ken.
Thank you for sharing that, man. You know, it's funny.
You and your brother are the reason, like when we started the podcast, podcasting is weird because it's one of the few, you know, broadcast mediums or whatever, where you're sort of directly tied to the advertising, you know? So when you're on the daily show, when you're on another TV show, they just play ads in between. In podcasting, the ads are sort of tied to the show in some ways, you know? And so I remember when we launched the podcast, they're explaining the system to me and how it works they're like well you know people don't pay for the podcast until you do advertise i was like okay whatever and you get the ads that come in and one of the ads that we used to get on the podcast was sports betting you know get like all sports betting sports betting sports betting and there was one day when i was reading like the terms and conditions of the sports betting and i don't know why you and your brother came into my head and i said to the team after that i was like we can't we can't do these anymore and they were like why and i was like it's not real.
Do you know what I mean? You know when they go like, gamble responsibly. That's not a real thing.
You know? Someone might say, oh, yeah, but I mean, anything can go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But we have to admit there are certain things in life that have a far worse ramification than others you know like you and i funny enough in cape town we're talking to a friend from london we didn't know i didn't know that she had a gambling addiction i know it was a crazy story crazy so the uk has this thing where you can put somebody or put yourself really on a list where you are banned From all gambling All gambling And when you're on that list They can't take your money They can't allow you to gamble They can't And once you're on the list I think there's like Different phases You can be on for a year You can be on for three years You can be on for ten years Or something Maybe even forever But you And then you have to call To take yourself off the list And there's a series of things You have to answer But the point is she was telling us the story about gambling and I was thinking of you again and your brother and I was just like, the thing about gambling in particular is on the face of it, gambling is fun and innocuous, right? It's a fun thing. Hey, I bet you this can't happen.
I bet you that can't happen. Like you were saying with insurance, I bet you your house won't catch fire.
But when people work to make you gamble more than you can and should, I don't know, man. And I feel like this about a few products that we've allowed in society and in the world is we've made it seem like it's all about the individual's responsibility.
But we know that there are certain individuals who can't override that because it's been designed to hack that. They'll make certain foods addictive, but then we blame people for being addicted to them.
But it's like, yeah, but you also made it addictive. Someone like oh yeah but why did they smoke it's like yeah but you know that smoking is addictive and gambling is one of those as well like the way they make the way they they loop people in with parlays and bets and double or nothing and this and get that and you can get a free and they always rope you in with free hey hey come in start with a free one your free bet start with a free bet and and i remember thinking i was just like damn man it's like am i because i genuinely i kept on thinking of like somewhere out there there might be some kids some person's listening to your podcast and they go like oh wow free free bet i might want to join in and then you just you don't know know, because you've seen the insidious side of it.
It's so funny. It's so funny.
I've asked myself this question. I was like, well, what if a betting company came to me and said, hey, influencers? I was like, well, I know I wouldn't do it, right? Right.
But at the same, it's so funny. There's another friend of mine.
He called me up the one time and he was like, well, well, he's this patent company has called him and they want him to influence something. And he's like, he's not going to do it.
And I was like, I think you should if, you know, I don't think that you should not do it because, you know, but then again, it's because he, maybe he'd met my brother and all all of that so it felt like too close to home and and it's such a i mean for example like and this is what i think about so now because people die in car accidents i know i'm not trivializing no no yeah i'm not trivializing yeah people die in car accidents and then there's a car company that's like, okay, great. Or some people take their lives in cars, right?

So it doesn't... I don't know, yeah.
I don't know trivializing it. People die in car accidents.
And then there's a car company that's like, okay, great. Or some people take their lives in cars, right? So does that mean that one should not then advertise a car? So I hear what you're saying.
But I, and I, it's funny you say that. I've asked myself this question.
And I think this is oftentimes how certain products, brands, or services weasel out of a certain type of responsibility they bring that up as an argument and they've done well to condition us to think that way the difference is there's no car manufacturer who is secretly trying to make you die in a car accident do you know what i'm trying to do the opposite there is there is no car manufacturer who's going okay on the outside we're going to Advertise how safe a car accident. Do you know what I mean? Trying to do the opposite.
There is no car manufacturer who's going,

okay, on the outside,

we're going to advertise how safe a Volvo is.

But guys, secretly,

we're going to make sure the brakes don't work.

We're going to make the car go faster than it says on the speedometer.

We're going to make sure these people,

let's even get them to drive drunk.

Let's advertise alcohol in the car while they're driving.

They don't do that.

So a car accident is an unfortunate byproduct Of driving It can happen And over time it is happening Less and less and less and less and less Because cars have gotten safer and safer And safer and safer and safer Right The exact opposite is true for gambling Go and look I don't care where you live in the world guys gambling is now the thing oh it is every sports league has gambling sponsors it's on the side of the boards it's on the advertising it's on the and again by the way i'm not even saying i'm anti-gambling please don't get me wrong like i you know me i hate living in binaries right i'm not anti-gambling but what i'm what i find myselfgic and vehemently opposed to Most of the time Is when we just Aren't honest about the restrictions Or the limitations or the regulations We're putting on certain things But then for something like gambling I go if we were to find your documents Your real documents that often times get leaked When you go to court Would we find that you are actually Trying to get people to gamble responsibly Is that what we would find Definitely not The same way with social media companies Would we find that you are actively Trying to get people to not Become depressed Lose their self esteem Have a bad self image Are you actively Because you say it hey guys oh social media platforms hey guys don't don't forget to take a break from your screen and go outside but are you actively trying to do that because the thing you there's the thing you tell us in public and the thing you tell us in private right and so i think that's my issue is governments have shown that they are far behind where they need to be in terms of regulating gambling I'm not going to be a crazy person And be like no gambling No I won't say that But I'm like There are some industries That have found a way To get around the regulations That try to keep As many people safe as possible And the way they've done it Is by flipping it And making it a personal responsibility Yeah your responsibility Yeah Gam. Gamble responsibly.
But no one says to them, no, no, no, advertise responsibly. No one says to them, program your apps responsibly.
No one says to them, vet your customers responsibly. It's always on you.
Gamble responsibly. And when they do that, what they do is they make you as an individual feel like you are responsible for the thing that has happened to you but in certain industries we don't yeah there's no airline that can get away with saying like hey man choose the one that flies because if they crash we come for them we investigate the shit out of them we're like nah man you had three crashes nah we're gonna ground your airline actually then they they can't be like no no, these passengers, they must pick better, man.
Come on, guys. Why? Did you inspect the plane before you came? Did you pick responsibly? I think there's a real big problem and gambling is one of them.
And the crypto space is another one. Whereby your best customer is the one that goes bankrupt on your product.
Yes. There's no product that relies on you going bankrupt for your benefit.
With cars, it's not beneficial to a car company for the person to spend all them. You know what I mean? That's not what their bottom nine is based on.
A lot of these crypto things, and I'll say things because i don't really know them but an nft things forex uh some some forex stuff and online gambling their bottom line is reliant on people going bankrupt yes that's that's what my problem never thought about that that's actually that's what i mean my problem is people have been tricked into thinking that all products are the same and all ramifications are equal they're not but they're not yeah because some to your point ryan have been designed differently they've been designed to do a different thing to you so i'll give you a simple example imagine if they said in the same way some countries have gone you have to provide us with documents before you get a phone number like look at what south africa did you know with like going like Hey we just Rica Yeah we just want to No you can't just have a phone number We want to see your passport Or your ID Or we want to know Who has which phone number Right Bank accounts as well Yeah bank accounts For certain things You could do the same with gambling You could say okay Fine Gambling services The responsibility is on you If you want people To be on your platform They have to present you With their statements, and you are not allowed to allow them to gamble with more than a certain percentage of their income. Like we do with credit.
So the National Credit Act, people can only get a certain amount of credit based on what they earn. They do that with credit in America as well.
You have a credit act where they say, like they go, hey, what's your credit score? Sorry, you can't buy this thing. So thing so now my question to you is if we allow that for banks if we're saying that like a bank cannot give you credit when you don't have a good credit score yeah why why is it such a crazy idea to ask that of a gambling company that's because fundamentally it's the same thing we're saying you cannot afford to pay back this loan so we will not give you the loan in the first place yeah and I know there's many issues with credit scores and there's other, we can talk about that another time.
But the underlying concept is still there and it's sound. Why can't we do the same thing with gambling companies? And my question is, why doesn't the gambling company want that? Because a gambling company would be like, no, but I'm like, no, no, no.
You guys say you want people to gamble responsibly. Let's help you.
So then let's help you. Yeah.
We're going to make sure that all your customers can afford to pay every single bet. All your customers are not gambling beyond their means.
And you're still making money. And everyone's having a good time.
Why would they say no to that? Because fundamentally, their product is not about you making money from them or them giving you something. No.
their product is about extracting as much wealth from you as is humanly possible. And the ultimate conclusion for many people, as you've unfortunately learned.
And, you know, like most brands and companies, like alcohol, for example. about 20% of the customers

are responsible for 80% of the consumption. You know, apparently this is true for everything.
Yeah, everything. Yeah.
So I learned this for ice cream and I took it personally because I am the 20%. Definitely.
I buy 80% of the ice cream. In everyone else in the world you're welcome because of me

because of me you guys have ice cream

I will literally say this

there are five of us here

making Trevor 20% of us

Trevor has bought 80% of the ice cream

we've bought in our world

that's what I'm saying

I'm saying I'm not responsible for ice cream companies

staying open

for all of you

so you're welcome

but now okay

so

that's an interesting question actually A segue to ask you Is like Your books How many books Have you written now? What are you on? Now I'm on number five Number five So what The first one was? In my arrogant opinion That's my favorite title Of all time Because of who you are I think it's my favorite title Because you're so

So modest

And so considered

And so the

So in my arrogant opinion

It's amazing

Okay

Your second book

My second book was

To quote myself

To quote myself

Yes

And

The

Third

Book

Was

What was my third

Oh

These things really do happen to me

Yes

It was a lot of

It was like these Uber driver stories

But like

Way more crazy

Thank you. book was what was my third oh these things really do happen to me yes it was a lot of it was like these uber driver stories but like way more crazy ones yeah and then and then it's the answers for me which was very different and then what made that one different because a lot of your your books and I would encourage people to get them because like and I don't say this just because you're my friend.
I think it's one of the things I've, I've been lucky enough to learn and love about you is you're one of my favorite storytellers ever. And your writing is like, I can see that you've been reading newspapers since you were 13.
No, because the way you tell a story, the narrative, the, the, the, the way you bring things together, you tie stuff together, all your books are like time traveling between now and then, now and then,

now and then.

You'll talk about what's happening now.

Some of your books, you're talking about social media, but then you'll be talking about growing

up in the village.

But then you'll find a way to tie social media into the village.

And then in another book, you'll be talking about just life and the way we see each other, but then you'll tie it into something that was or that isn't. So what made that one different? So this one, I actually wrote during COVID.
I live with my brother and now he's not there anymore. I can't bump into him.
I could walk around naked. So now he had, so I just started asking people questions online.
One of the, I mean, when I think of one of the questions was, what have you never said to your parents that you wish you had said to your parents? Oh, wow. And the things that people said were so heavy.
And then eventually people say to me, can you please put the answers like in a book? Yeah. And I put the answer, those answers.
That's why it's very different. That's why I'm always like, is it a book? I don't know.
Yeah. But I'm with you.
And then, and then now this one, which is the one that I'm, it's, I'm working on now, which is, it's done actually. It's gone to the printers, on the 27th.
I always say, like, a book is never done. It's just gone to the printers.
Because I don't know if you've had that. I've had that experience where I just have to give the book in.
But forevermore, I go, oh, I could have added this. I should have.
But that's everyone I know of who's never written a book says the same thing. Okay, so one, your latest book which is coming out Yeah, my latest book which is coming out now is called Life is Like That Sometimes Yeah, so it's like, even the pictures are, life is like that sometimes And again, I talk about the village and then towards the end obviously I talk, you know, my brother, the journey that he had to go through with him and losing my mother as well.

So, and it's like this journey of life, you know. And I always say that when I look at my books, I think I kind of try to just post-rationalize them in the sense that i say it is it's almost looking at not recording history but how we live life while history is happening so if for example if i talk about um so in the village um i were to take the bus when we wake up at fourth you know at four with my gran who then take us to the school and take a bus and if the river was too high then we have to wait until you know all of those kinds of things that is a consequence of apartheid for example so this is how we lived during apartheid and then so what happens when nelson Mandela comes out of prison oh they open schools to black kids too then I go to a school with white people and people in the township see me wearing a school uniform this little primary 12 year old you know wearing these clothes that they only see white kids wearing to school and then they will stop you on the street and be like can you speak English they're like yes like really and they're like yeah and then they say okay speak English then you know the funniest they used to do that to me but then I would speak but then they wouldn't know whether or not it was English it was always like the funniest loop they would be like you know what I mean yeah and I Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. And I'll be like, yeah, I speak.
And they'll be like, then I'll be like, hello, my name is Trevor. Then I'm like, but you don't know if I can speak English because you can't speak English.
I know. And that's what I'm saying the books are.
They're saying, they're literally was, I mean, like one example like I have is like, I'll never forget. I'd broken my arm and I'd go to the hospital and Imtanzale Sensilia Makewane.
And the doctors are just white. I don't know why.
They were all white. And the doctor would have a nurse who would translate for them.
So now I've broken my arm. So the nurse is translating for the doctor.
Yeah. And the doctor is like, okay.

But then I respond in English.

I could see the nurse, what the heck?

This child didn't just respond back in English, you know?

So the doctor says something, she translates and I respond in English.

So she goes like this to me.

And so the nurse,

which means, oh my God god this child speaks english this child speaks english and she calls like the nurses in the ward and they all come they surround me while the doctor's kind of working on me so the doctor's like entertained you know for all these nurses and they were like so shocked to see a child speaking English. That's amazing.
So again, it's like, what I'm saying is that I'm, history is happening. Yeah.
This was happening. This is how we're living, you know? So anyway, I don't know why I said that, but I think that's maybe what I do with my books.
Yeah. And I actually, I actually think we need that because sort of going to the beginning of our conversation, we're always at the mercy of the time that we're in and we can only process it through what we think will be a future lens, but more often than not, is informed by a past lens, you know? So I don't know.
I think that's what I've always loved about your storytelling and your books is that it does give some sort of perspective. Like it's one thing for people to go, Nelson Mandela was released from prison and apartheid ended.
But it's like, yeah, but do you know what it was like for a young boy from a village who now goes to a city because of that? Like the human side of political ramifications

is so much more interesting to me

because then it stops becoming

such a theoretical thing.

You get what I'm saying?

Like I remember a friend of mine

who's Palestinian,

Mo Amr,

great comedian,

really funny.

But one day he said something to me

that really stuck with me.

He said,

I just wish more people

would see stories of Palestinian people so that they would no longer refer to them as just numbers 10 palestinians dead 100 palestinians dead you know what i mean it's like no it's not just a number what if i told you a story of a little girl who was going somewhere and then never got there would like do you get what i'm saying let me tell you a story of a family who had a little store that provided for the community, and now that building is no longer there. And I realize that's the thing that limits our ability oftentimes to care for somebody else, is that we don't know their story.
Yeah, that is so true. And if anything, I think in having this conversation, I've figured a little bit more of Kayad Lange out,

is that you are such a village child

that you've carried the village with you

everywhere you've gone in the most beautiful way.

You've carried it into your books.

Because in the village, I don't know if you remember,

we barely talk about, and I didn't live in the village,

but I'd visit all the time, you know?

Not your village, but obviously my family's's ones The conversations Were never big Never They were always small But they had the most meaning And I feel like Now in society And I'm guilty of this as well Even when I'm saying this I go We have Big conversations That if we're honest, often meaningless, you know,

the small conversations are the ones where you go,

where's your uncle?

How's he doing?

Hey man,

did you see that,

uh,

the,

the,

the,

the,

the river?

Have you seen there,

there's rocks blocking the river?

Hey man,

have you guys also noticed your mud?

You're by the houses.

Hey man,

that's small.

Yeah.

And yet it's so meaningful. You know, you know who's sick, who's healthy, you know, who's growing, man that's small yeah and yet it's so meaningful you

know you know who's sick who's healthy you know who's growing who's not you know who's happy who's sad you know you know and it like connects you to people there was literally not a single break-in in the village i don't know about you like it was an anomalous yeah it was such a crazy concept that someone would steal something from another person because you knew who you were stealing it from Yeah And I think I think that's what Kayadlanga is In many ways You are an embodiment Of a village That over time We are losing In some You know For good and bad But like we And I think you've carried That into everything You've carried it into your books You've it into online. You're one of the few people I know online who treats social media like a village.
No, and I mean this honestly. You talk to people and with people and it's very different.
You're not even doing it for likes. You engage with people.
And I think you make people feel like you are real And they are real

And you're having conversations with them

And you know that

Whereas most of us engage in social media

On a very superfluous level

We post a thing

We want to see if people have liked it

And then we leave it

We walk away

Did you like my picture?

Yes

Okay good

Bye

Did you like my tweet?

Yes

Bye

But you are going

Hey here's the thing I said

Then someone says why

Then you're like I'll tell you why

Then they go that's crazy

Then you're like what about your life

Then they're like how?

You asked me about me

Thank you for this This has been Thank you Kaya Zanga My village friend. You know, there's a thing that you talked about, the stories, that in the foreword of my book, or the author's note, there is one subject that kind of prickles me somewhat, is that in South Africa, the book- is white, mostly white.
Yeah. Majority white.
But they don't buy books by black writers. Oh, shit.
Which is very interesting. That's really interesting.
So they, now it's almost like then how do they get, how do we get to know each other if we don't reading stories about each other? Damn, that's interesting're giving your book away to wait and now they have to buy it because they have more money in fact double the price for them oh there comes his father i see you are your father's son so if i say for me if there's one thing that I wish like especially for South Africans is that because black people buy books buy books by every author yeah so I almost feel that that is one thing that kind of really needs to start happening I think in this country if we really want to get to know each other we need to we need to know each other's stories exactly like I said the Palestinians yeah so yeah we need to meet each other. We need to know each other's stories.
Exactly like I said on the Palestinians.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

We need to meet each other

in the village.

Molo mlobam.

Yeah, we're molo, molo.

I know.

Thank you very much,

my friend.

Thank you so much.

It was awesome.

Beautiful.

Thank you, man.

I appreciate you.

Beautiful.

Thank you.

What Now with Trevor Noah

is produced by Spotify Studios

in partnership

with Day Zero Productions.

The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avigan.

Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Claire Slaughter is our producer.

Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown.

Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now? This episode is brought to you by National Education Association.

NEA's Read Across America campaign celebrates a nation of diverse readers

with recommended books, authors, and teaching resources

that promote diversity and inclusion.

However, certain politicians are banning books

with characters representing diverse perspectives and experiences,

including books about Martin Luther King and the Trail of Tears. But let's be honest.
are banning books with characters representing diverse perspectives and experiences, including

books about Martin Luther King and The Trail of Tears. But let's be honest, all students deserve

access to diverse, age-appropriate books. So help us celebrate and protect the joy of reading

for all of America's students. Learn more at readacrossamerica.org.