How To Be The Most Healed Guy with Neal Brennan [VIDEO]

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Speaker 2 There are few people I know who have spent more time in comedy than Neil Brennan. Like few human beings.
And when I say comedy, I mean every level of comedy. TV.
Administration.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no red paperwork. No, really.
Scheduling.

Speaker 2 You are that guy.

Speaker 2 Club comedy. Neil Brennan has been in the trenches of the trenches.
So I was going to ask you about this, but like

Speaker 2 I feel like

Speaker 2 there is no comedian who does not have something wrong with them.

Speaker 2 No good comedian.

Speaker 1 I learned that from the daily show.

Speaker 2 I was like, all these people are insane.

Speaker 2 But I was like, these are not normal people. Yeah, like, there's a, and it doesn't matter what it is.
It might just, it might be your family. It might be your, the, the, the country you lived in.

Speaker 2 It might be just a neurodivergent thing that you have in your own head and you grew up in a fine.

Speaker 2 What's funny is doing my, I do a podcast called Vlox where I have people on and we talk about their issues. Yeah.
And I know that they're not the real issues. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Like, these are the issues that that you're willing,

Speaker 2 these are the showcase issues. Oh man, and I'm thinking,

Speaker 2 but do you think they know

Speaker 2 a couple days a year? They know. They know a couple days a year, they can actually be like this.
But they don't even look at it.

Speaker 2 This is What Now

Speaker 2 with Trevor Noah.

Speaker 2 If you don't know Neil Brennan, you probably don't know comedy, right? Neil Brennan is in many ways like the forest gump of comedy. He has been everywhere.
He knows everyone.

Speaker 2 No comedian who is worth their salt in anything

Speaker 2 does not have a story about Neil Brennan. I don't care where they're from.
I don't care what they're doing.

Speaker 2 I'm talking about comedians from other countries as well, not just in America. Like they know Neil Brennan, right?

Speaker 2 I know some of your story, but I don't want to miss it, especially for the audience. So,

Speaker 2 Neil Brennan is born where

Speaker 2 Philadelphia, outside Philadelphia. Okay, I had like Ireland in my head for some time.
It feels like it. It feels like

Speaker 2 it really is. It's such an Irish name.
It really is. I'm an Irish citizen, but I got my.
Oh, you are? Yeah, I got my citizenship like recently. Oh, look at that.
I don't know what to do with it.

Speaker 2 Congratulations.

Speaker 2 Just do it. Just use it.
I'm going to, yeah, EU. I'm going to move somewhere.

Speaker 2 Okay, so you're born in Philadelphia? Born in Philadelphia. The last of 10.
The last of 10. How many boys, how many girls? Six, total six boys, four girls.
And

Speaker 2 yeah, and then I don't know. It was just

Speaker 2 the youngest of 10. It's pretty chaotic.
And it's a lot of kids in a house. It's a bit like an orphanage.

Speaker 2 But no one comes.

Speaker 2 Were your parents? No one comes to take it.

Speaker 1 I'm curious, like the age gap between one and 10 and where your parents are.

Speaker 2 10 kids and 16 years. 16 years.

Speaker 1 But I'm curious about by the time your parents got to you, were they like, oh, fuck it. It was

Speaker 2 not care at all. It was just kind of like, ah,

Speaker 2 you'll, it's, whatever's going to happen is going to happen.

Speaker 2 But still, I was like, I worked a lot. I caddied.

Speaker 2 I, uh, but I was like, drank, smoked, and my mom would just kind of not even.

Speaker 2 How old are you when this is happening? 13. Wow.
I am. Yeah.
Yeah. 13, 14.
I got

Speaker 2 underage drinking when I was 16, cops. Oh, damn.
Yeah. So I mean, I was.
I was a troublemaker, troublemaker, kind of. Yeah, but I'd stop.

Speaker 2 Once I, I remember the end of high school being like, I don't really need to drink. Like, I've never been that into it.
It was just like, I was just doing it. I wasn't much of it.

Speaker 2 I was, I was similar in that, like, I was friends with a lot of friend groups

Speaker 2 and pretty funny. And, like, what was the, was the family funny? Because I've never known this part of your comedy.
Like,

Speaker 2 who was the funny in your family or where did the funny come from? My dad liked comedy.

Speaker 2 I think a lot of what he, his his jokes were kind of stolen from like Frank Sinatra and like, where I'd be like, oh, I know that cadence.

Speaker 2 Where I'd listen to Frank, I'd watch a Frank Sinatra and I'd be like, oh, that's where he got it.

Speaker 2 He's one of 13.

Speaker 2 So, and it's a lot of boys in that family. He's probably seven boys in this family.

Speaker 2 So it was like a lot of sort of sarcasm. And then this is a funny story.
One year at Thanksgiving, I'm in high school.

Speaker 2 My, one of my brothers said, Kevin, you're not even the funniest one in the family. Neil is.

Speaker 2 Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. Wow.
Like, kind of overly competitive for funniest, I guess.

Speaker 2 Specifically, for funniest.

Speaker 2 Well, I guess in this case, yeah. Yeah.
Or something. Yeah.
There was, it was. But now, having said that, my older brothers and sisters were

Speaker 2 all so great to me in that they all had jobs that were interesting that I got access to.

Speaker 2 My brother Joe was a caddie on the PGA tour, so I would go to like pga tour events and like knew kevin kevin was a comedian so i got entree into that in high school knew david tell knew louie knew like met louie when i was in high school ray romano all these guys tommy worked at the chicago stadium and wriggley fields i used to go to cubs games bulls games i

Speaker 2 i saw a white girl mistake michael jordan for somebody else

Speaker 2 that's how long ago this was imagine how long ago this was.

Speaker 2 A white girl said, hey, are you Orlando Woolridge?

Speaker 2 And I remember Michael Jordan's face falling and being like, no, I'm Michael Jordan.

Speaker 2 This is prehistoric time. So

Speaker 2 I got a lot of possibilities.

Speaker 2 I got to see a lot of possibilities and like a lot of life choices and life paths from the family. Whenever I think of big families, I

Speaker 2 i don't know i i i'm torn you you you know my family like brothers are split right so i have two younger brothers one is 10 years younger one is 20 years younger so for all intents and purposes it feels like we were all single kids in a way yeah but then we all occupy an age position you know so i do feel like the eldest because of age yeah but

Speaker 2 your mom's parenting changed a lot so

Speaker 2 i would say she's changed but not her parents so her ability to execute her parenting style has evolved with age age. Like, I was talking to my youngest brother about this the other day.

Speaker 2 It's like, I don't think my mom's vibe changed, but when I was young, she could chase me. When my brother was naughty, she couldn't chase him as much as she could chase me.

Speaker 2 So, I think she then had to adapt. But over a long distance, she always got me.
She always got me.

Speaker 2 But I always wondered, like, in a big family, like, because I craved it most of my life. And then I would meet people in mega big families and they would say, oh, I felt forgotten.

Speaker 2 I felt like there wasn't enough love to go around. Like, Like, did you feel like that?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think just it's a resources issue.

Speaker 2 Now, having said that, the economist Thomas Sowell used to say, Uh, there are no solutions, there's only trade-offs, which I think is just true about everything.

Speaker 2 So, there's no, there's no one thing like that's better.

Speaker 2 Cause then, only children, there's like downsides to only children, apparently, yeah, um, the ego and they don't know how to share, or they don't know how to interact, or whatever,

Speaker 2 but they're very loved maybe too loved

Speaker 2 um i i don't so i don't i think you could persuade me either way i think if a kid's loved that's good if if but i wasn't necessarily like didn't get the most love from my dad necessarily specifically my mom like

Speaker 2 wanted to

Speaker 2 but like had to cook or whatever yeah um

Speaker 2 so and she did but it was just it's just you know she had her hands full So, so I don't know. I don't know what this, I don't know what the best,

Speaker 2 what do you, you're, you, you're doing it. I know.
So, how do you?

Speaker 1 Well, I'm curious before I answer this: do you and your siblings get on?

Speaker 2 Are you close? Remember that Thanksgiving story? Yeah.

Speaker 2 That spirit remains. Oh, I mean, it's, it's, so it's openly competitive.
My dad was competitive with us.

Speaker 2 So I think that there's like that's kind of

Speaker 2 so it sounds like succession.

Speaker 2 I mean, I was about to say like your dad could be. It's white trash succession.

Speaker 2 You said it. No, exactly.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's yeah, it is,

Speaker 2 it's competitive. I, one of my brothers used to keep track of who made the most money.

Speaker 2 Best doc. Yeah.
Yeah. And then and then I and then Chappelle's show happened and he was like, this is stupid.

Speaker 2 So, so, so I don't, you know, I would say it's, it's, it's a mixed bag. I think some are close, some are not.
But the good news about 10 kids, you don't have to be close with all of them.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's, yeah, that's what I mean. It's multiple families and one family.

Speaker 2 Because most of the time, I feel like your siblings sort of not have to be, but you have to be close to them because these are the only people who've shared your existence.

Speaker 2 But then when there's 10, there's a lot of people who've shared your existence. You can choose to be able to get to the end of the

Speaker 2 generational thing. Yeah.
Of my brother, Joe, 16 years older than me. So he wasn't.
He said to me recently, he's like, I realize like we never really knew each other.

Speaker 2 I was like, yeah, how would we have? He moved out when I was four or something, or maybe even

Speaker 2 so. It becomes more like an uncle thing.

Speaker 1 Also, the thing with siblings is just like, if you weren't siblings, oftentimes you wouldn't be friends. Like, that's just like if you met them,

Speaker 1 what are the odds?

Speaker 2 But now you're forced to become friends, which is what do you okay? So tell me what your plan is.

Speaker 1 And if you're executing it, I'm reading this book called Siblings Without Rivalry.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 When I'm done with the book, I'll let you know. I'm really afraid because I come from, I don't know, and I don't know if it's like African family dynamics.

Speaker 1 I don't want to be generalized here, but I always remember there were always like fights about land and fights about.

Speaker 2 That sounds so parochial. I was about to say, that sounds like an insult that someone would say.

Speaker 1 I know, it sounds like

Speaker 2 an African. I'm just going to listen.
It sounds like Trump.

Speaker 2 It sounds like a Trump. They're like, they're eating cats and dogs.
They're fighting over land.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no, no. But like, I've just conflict was kind of ambient in the extended family.
Me and my sisters are figuring it out. We're at very different phases in our lives, but we're a good person.

Speaker 2 It's underneath a big tree from Black Panther, right? Basically.

Speaker 2 Just the one. Just a few.
Am I seeing this feud, right?

Speaker 2 Vibranium.

Speaker 2 Vibranium.

Speaker 2 Christiana.

Speaker 2 There are a few things you need to focus on with your siblings.

Speaker 2 You know, the weirdest thing for me with Black Panther is like, sometimes when I, when I do that, because it's like the accent that they're doing is a South African accent, but they're not a South African accent.

Speaker 2 So even when I do it, I have to like, you have to

Speaker 2 undo.

Speaker 2 And you were in it and do a different accent, right? Yeah, yeah. I to like, because I wanted to match the general accent.

Speaker 2 So I didn't want to come in there with like a weird, like, what is this guy doing? Yeah. And then, so I was like, no, I'll try and like figure out the vibe that everyone's in.

Speaker 2 And then, and then I'll go from there. Yes.

Speaker 2 And then, so it's very weird for me um are your are your parents still alive my mama's yeah mama's still how old how old is she 91 wow or 90 90 yeah what was it like for you when your dad passed away because you know you you you share very openly in your special about how

Speaker 2 like and i think you and i've connected a lot on this growing up in a home with a man who's very violent with his alcohol with like it's a terrifying existence yeah and i think you and i i don't know we bond around this i think a lot of our comedy is shaped by this or this feeling.

Speaker 2 But I've always wondered, what did it feel like when your dad passed away?

Speaker 2 You know, the interesting thing was like we'd kind of made peace prior to him dying.

Speaker 2 And then he did the thing with the will, which is in Three Mics.

Speaker 2 But for those who don't know, what it is?

Speaker 2 Netflix is a streaming platform.

Speaker 2 And I have a special on there called

Speaker 2 Three Mics. It's one of my three specials.
There's one called Three Mics, one called Blocks, and one called Crazy Good, which is the newest one. It's pretty popular.

Speaker 2 My dad, we never really got along.

Speaker 2 And then he died and left money in his will to everyone but me.

Speaker 2 So it was just painful. That part was painful.

Speaker 2 But we, I, I just don't, I, it's weirdly like doing three mics got it out of me, got the pain out of me. It used to weigh down on me.
It used to be like a cause of anger. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And now it just either from doing three mics or

Speaker 2 something,

Speaker 2 I just can kind of see the positive in that.

Speaker 2 And I actually wrote him a note before he died. Love, like, I appreciate the socioeconomic position he put me in, meaning like I got to go to NYE.
I'm paid for some of it, but like NYU is not cheap.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Anything was possible,

Speaker 2 which I think is a thing that you

Speaker 2 is a kind of, as a parent, has got to be one of the main goals. He one time said, like, you know, when I was growing up, I, we were told all you had to provide your kid was

Speaker 2 food and shelter. And I remember going like, you know, the government can do that.

Speaker 2 But so I guess it's,

Speaker 2 he's born in 1930. Damn.
Like,

Speaker 2 that's a different world. It's just a different.

Speaker 2 And I've gotten more,

Speaker 2 I don't even know if I've gotten empathetic, but I've certainly gotten less angry as time goes on.

Speaker 1 I'm curious, um,

Speaker 1 were you angry because you thought he was trying to spite you?

Speaker 1 Because, like, my instant mind goes to as a parent, he didn't leave you the money because you were the most successful, and he's the kid that thought you were going to be okay.

Speaker 1 That's like my parent giving him this grace and yes, but did you was your anger because you're like, oh, you're trying to spite me?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it felt like a flick, like a last little flick, like, oh, well you're mr tough guy okay or something

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 but

Speaker 2 yeah i it could go either it's one of those things of like could be

Speaker 1 and you haven't have you asked your mom have you asked your siblings like

Speaker 2 basically yeah that they they tried to talk him out of it oh so they knew yeah

Speaker 2 did so you didn't know leading up i didn't know wow they knew And they tried to talk him out of it. And he was like,

Speaker 2 and he just, and then I've heard from another brother that he did, he was sort of slagging him

Speaker 2 about, like, you're just here for the money. Oh, wow! Like, it was sort of a real,

Speaker 2 he went down swinging, yeah, so to speak. So, I don't really know what to make of it, other than I'm glad I don't carry it because it's just not, it's not helpful.

Speaker 2 We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

Speaker 1 So I'm curious, because you guys are both comedians. I'm not.
Is comedy really that cathartic? Because like hearing

Speaker 1 you say, like, I released this thing, I surrendered it, and now I can put it behind me.

Speaker 2 Is the one that is the one thing?

Speaker 2 You just say it so much that it's in a weird way you'll relate. Yeah.
It's like material you don't believe anymore. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's like you just, Chappelle has an observation that jokes are like tires that they just, the tread wears out. And if I'm doing a show about my dad, you just after a while, it's like,

Speaker 2 what? So there's partially that, which is just sort of like

Speaker 2 getting tired of saying something.

Speaker 2 And I would say it's more from the spiritual stuff of like releasing it. But there was before the spiritual stuff, there was this idea of like, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 I think I just sort of like talked it out. Have you, you talk less personally than I do, but but your earlier shows were a little more personal.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Yeah, I actually, so I used to speak more personally, and then I realized. Won't make that mistake again.

Speaker 2 No, I think there was a, there's a, there's a sort of a weird idea I adopted in and around taking over the daily show. And I was like, don't make it about you.

Speaker 2 Do you know what I mean? It was like, okay, it's about the show. It's about the work.
It's about the, you know, and, and now on the other side of it, now I'm going back into more personal material.

Speaker 2 Now I'm going back into,

Speaker 2 but it's funny,

Speaker 2 I never thought it was cathartic.

Speaker 1 So even, even in your early work, when you share

Speaker 2 your experience, being portrayed.

Speaker 2 I'll be honest.

Speaker 2 And I don't think it's cathartic for most comedians, if I'm honest. I think what happens a lot of the time is comedians have found like a

Speaker 2 it's it's almost like a it's like a shield that you that you can put in front of you

Speaker 2 to seem like you are dealing with the thing, but you are not dealing with the thing and you and you're speaking about it to people So people are like oh wow You're speaking about it So you must be over it or you must be but I don't think it's cathartic.

Speaker 2 The reason I don't think it's cathartic is because

Speaker 2 comedians get to do the thing with the audience, and that is, we escape with the laugh.

Speaker 2 Do you know what I mean? And so, I think real catharsis requires you to stay in something until it is released, as opposed to finding a way to escape.

Speaker 1 Is it avoidance then?

Speaker 2 No, it's not avoid too psychological. No, no, look, it's not avoidance.
I think,

Speaker 2 and I was thinking about this before this conversation.

Speaker 2 I was going to ask you,

Speaker 2 this generation of comedians is the first. I remember the shift.
I don't know if you remember. There was a point in comedy where we saw almost every few months a comedian committing suicide somewhere.

Speaker 2 You would just hear it. You'd walk into a comedy club.
The good old days.

Speaker 2 Everyone would be around.

Speaker 2 Everyone would be around a table in the club.

Speaker 2 And there'd just be like a sad feeling and you'd be like, hey, what's going on? I'd be like, oh, did you hear about Bobby? Did you hear about blah, blah, blah? And be like, what happened?

Speaker 2 They're like, Oh, yeah, no, they found him in a hotel room in Pennsylvania. They found him in a hotel room in Ohio or something.
They found him in a hotel room. And this was constant.

Speaker 2 It was just, it was, and it was almost, it was almost expected in many ways.

Speaker 2 And then I don't know what happened, but suddenly something shifted. All of a sudden, comedians wouldn't be ordering the chicken wings backstage.

Speaker 2 They were ordering the celery and the kale and the baby carrots and the hummus. And then they wouldn't be ordering a drink, like a cocktail or whiskey.
They'd be ordering water.

Speaker 2 You know, then like you'd know, and then comedians would be like, oh, yeah, I got to leave now. I'm working out in the morning.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 in a way, it's a contradiction in that people are getting, I think culture in general is getting more like self-carry.

Speaker 1 Yeah, wellness. Yeah, wellness.

Speaker 2 Now, the thing I wanted to talk to you about was I had something I wanted to talk to you about, which is the what I call

Speaker 2 wisdom theater or wellness theater, performative wellness, performative wisdom. Meaning, we talked about a mutual friend of ours who wanted to be the most healed guy.
Oh, Jesus.

Speaker 2 Yeah, this is killing me.

Speaker 2 Where people, people go on podcasts, they host podcasts, they, they, uh, no offense,

Speaker 2 um, no offense to all of us,

Speaker 2 including yourself, everyone,

Speaker 2 every company included, yes, um, where it becomes about performing wisdom, performing self-care,

Speaker 2 performing altruism, performing

Speaker 2 altruism, performing, and all, and it's like, this isn't it either. Do you think it's even helpful to have all of this like, I meditated this morning, and just all that stuff?

Speaker 2 Because I believe it's all for

Speaker 2 in service of being better at capitalism.

Speaker 2 I always say, you know, the easiest way to see it, well, I'll tell my friends, is when you look at a post, let's say online, as soon as somebody says, here's how I did did it, or, you know, this is how I became more productive, or I'm like, no, that's not the point.

Speaker 2 Like, meditating is not about becoming more productive. Buddha was all about rising and grinding.

Speaker 2 If you know the story at all, it's all about.

Speaker 2 I don't know. I just think we're in the age of it right now, and I accept it, you know.
And I'll be honest,

Speaker 2 I don't mind the fact. that the trend right now is to be healthy.
Right. Because that's a fine trend.
Yeah,

Speaker 2 if you're going to if you're going to pick trends. Yeah, I love wellness.

Speaker 1 It's the best.

Speaker 2 Work haul is ever. It's crunchy and insane.
You don't even want to.

Speaker 2 I'm vegan, so I don't want to talk. Don't even talk to me.

Speaker 2 There was a time in comedy where

Speaker 2 one thing comedians all shared was comedy.

Speaker 2 Right?

Speaker 2 It didn't matter like who you were, where you were from, what you did, black, white, old, young, woman, man. It really didn't matter.
It didn't matter.

Speaker 2 We had this thing where we would go into a comedy club and it was like comedy time. And we we all just had comedy.

Speaker 2 And then I noticed over the past few years, and it's funny, I'm less worried about it for comedy and I'm more worried about what it means for society is I've noticed a creep of polarization even in comedy.

Speaker 2 Like comedy used to be everyone does everything and they're comedians and someone will get on stage and say the craziest joke that is whatever, you know, it can be anything, misogynistic, racist, you name it.

Speaker 2 But it's within the confines of comedy, like they're using the tools to make a joke about about it, right?

Speaker 2 And then now comedy is slowly becoming like, oh, well, those people, that's their politics. We don't do comedy with them.
And then these people, we don't do comedy with them. Like,

Speaker 2 do you think politics is going to end comedy as we know it?

Speaker 2 It is. Well, it's cult.
It's the world.

Speaker 2 Like, I've known Joe Rogan 30 plus years.

Speaker 2 And I didn't know his politics until nine years ago.

Speaker 2 And it's not because they were, they he didn't have any, it's just because you didn't know. You literally didn't know what somebody's politics were.
Yeah. Until I'm going to say 2008, the internet,

Speaker 2 social media. And then once social media started, then it became like Twitter and dunking on people.
And you see so-and-so's tweet. And that's that's I'm triggered and that's inappropriate.

Speaker 2 And that's they're going to pay. And now I have to like mute them or I have to not like I've actually thought can I like this tweet

Speaker 2 because there's going to be some sort of those people who will see that you liked it yes yeah and then we're all part of so many different groups that we've always been but it just kind of didn't they weren't you didn't wear them all all the time yeah now it's almost like the there was a daily show joke i think where they had the like the the formula one or the nascar sponsorships right right but it was all the badges all the badges of like people that had donated that's we're all these things now and we used to just not be.

Speaker 2 I was thinking this back when

Speaker 2 Elon Musk had the rocket come back down to Earth. I remember watching that.
First, I thought I texted him. I was so excited.

Speaker 2 Known him 29 years. Go on.
You're clearly a verified user.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 I watched the rocket come down. First, I thought it was a fake video because it's so amazing that it looks fake.

Speaker 2 Did you watch the longer one?

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's what I'm saying. one.
That's the one I'm talking about. Wait, this is going to land? So I thought it was going back.
I thought someone had

Speaker 2 reversed the video because I was like, this makes no sense.

Speaker 2 I was like, physics, what is happening here? And I'm watching all of this. And then I texted all my friends, especially like friends who love tech and everything.

Speaker 2 I was like, this is the most amazing thing. Have you seen this? And I was like, have you seen? And people were like, screw that guy.
I know. And I was like, whereas you were going live.

Speaker 2 I was like, maybe the fascism's worth it.

Speaker 2 That's not what I was saying. That's not what I was was saying.
And

Speaker 2 I've now learned on the podcast, I have to now be very clear.

Speaker 2 That's not what I was saying. No,

Speaker 2 no, I don't represent me.

Speaker 2 No, I, and, and even in my group of friends, I didn't understand, and I still don't understand why people feel the need to tell me how they feel about a thing that I know they feel about, but I'm like, I'm your friend.

Speaker 2 If I send you a video of an Elon Musk rocket being caught from space, yeah, and I go, this is amazing, Don't say to me, Elon Musk sucks. Yeah.
I know how you feel.

Speaker 2 They're afraid in that thing of like, if I like this tweet, am I going to get in trouble? Yeah, but this is in our own mindset.

Speaker 2 But with friends. Right.
But it's infected that as well. Oh, man.
That's terrifying to me. It really has.
I think it's terrifying to me.

Speaker 2 Once people start releasing texts. in court cases, in

Speaker 2 doxing cases, any of these, that's like the this is bad no this is bad no i okay i'm i'm gonna go on the record and say i will never judge anybody for texts that get released unless those texts indict them about something they've done in public because of the cont's like a comedy club it's it goes back to the same rule if we're in a comedy club we know that the people in here are trying to say things that elicit a laugh from the audience so a comedian will make a joke about anything they'll make a joke about murder they'll make a joke about genocides, they'll make a joke about rape, they'll make a joke.

Speaker 2 It doesn't I heard a comedian make a joke uh referring to a bunch of suicides as the good old days

Speaker 2 that was that was on this podcast.

Speaker 2 That was on one of the episodes.

Speaker 2 Go back through the episodes and you'll find it, but but but that's what I mean.

Speaker 2 It's like there's the context, and and we, when we maintain that context, yeah, people know, oh, yeah, you can send something to your friend or your family member that is egregious.

Speaker 2 It can be the most horrible thing towards them or towards somebody else, But because of the context, they know that you're joking. They know that.
Do you get what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 And I actually worry about that world. I don't want to live in a world where we now have to sort of like thought police.
Yeah, we have to now go like, I've never had that thought.

Speaker 2 I do not think anything that is bad could be funny. I do not think...

Speaker 1 Never say in private what you won't stand behind in public.

Speaker 2 No, but it's a joke. I wouldn't say many things.

Speaker 2 You know, I say crazy stuff in private.

Speaker 2 But it's free.

Speaker 2 Then there's no difference between private and public.

Speaker 1 Yeah, obviously, there are private acts. There's things that you do in private that you will never do in public, but just be who you are.
I think it's easier.

Speaker 2 Have you ever been on a group chat or even a one-to-one chat where someone's texted something

Speaker 2 and you've been like, boy, that's hot. Yeah, I mean, that's what texts are for.
I agree. Every group is standing with me.
But have you ever gone, do I give it a ha-ha?

Speaker 2 Do I give it a thumbs up? Do I, what do I give this?

Speaker 2 And if it ever goes public, I've truly had that thought. So

Speaker 2 I think

Speaker 2 that society, you know, it's not to delve too deep into the world of like the shadow self and all of these things, but we need to accept that as human beings, the paradox of the brain is that it is thinking about what it should not think about, even when we're telling it to think about something.

Speaker 2 It's mostly an intrusive thought. Exactly.
Everything. 90% intrusive thought.

Speaker 2 When I'm on the freeway, most of the time time i'm thinking crash that crash that run over crash that run over them run over them crash that crash yeah i'm not doing it though but my brain is going what would happen what would happen what would happen what would you know you know what i mean so i actually personally as trevor i go i judge people based on their actions not on their thoughts because i go that is in my opinion what makes you a good person is that you act in a way that is is good for other people or for yourself and you don't follow all the thoughts that are in fact if you follow all the thoughts i think they would put you in an asylum they would say that you are you listen to the voices you can just be in jail.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 1 I personally just feel suspicious of people who are like nice about people all the time. I just like that person makes me feel like.

Speaker 2 Oh, that, I mean, that is true. No, but

Speaker 2 I'm with you. But that's the world we're in right now.

Speaker 1 Like, if you say anything about anyone, public or private, it has to be a nice or kind thing. Because I just think it's, it's not the human experience.

Speaker 1 Sometimes, like, cause I'm like, oh, I don't like them. And people are like, why? I'm just like, it's just a feeling.
They've done nothing.

Speaker 1 I just, like, that's a real thing to have like this visceral reaction to someone.

Speaker 1 But I think the way our politics are in the world, the way the world is going, it's just that people think that they have to play nice all the time.

Speaker 2 It's just being disingenuous. It's just the

Speaker 2 it's creeping. Do you think it's hurt comedy as a whole?

Speaker 2 No. Okay.
I don't, I mean, I don't, there's no

Speaker 2 comedy, first of all, it's never been more popular. It's never been more lucrative.
So this idea that comedy is being hurt or cancel culture or any of that stuff, it's like everyone I know that

Speaker 2 I want to do a joke like, yeah, you got to be careful as a comedian because, you know, you could say something and then somebody will clip it. And the next thing you know, you'll be doing arenas.

Speaker 2 It's everyone I know that gets canceled. It's, you get canceled up.
It's like, it's like, it's the crucible. It's like, how are you going to respond to this? Yes.
And then that's how people judge you.

Speaker 2 And if you, if you cower and go, and genuflect, and or if you ignore it, or if you double down, or there's like ways to do it, but it makes the audience trust you more i think yes um i remember um

Speaker 2 i bumped into shane gillis

Speaker 2 and um

Speaker 2 and i remember chatting to him and i was like and i genuinely mean this i was like i i'm so proud of shane gillis as a human being and as a comedian because

Speaker 2 he got fired off of snl people discarded him they're like he's out then he amassed a huge amount of fans who are like yeah

Speaker 2 bring more crime case they were like bring more racism racism, bring more. They were like, do, do the thing that, and I'll never forget his first shows that he booked.

Speaker 2 I think it was at the stand actually in New York. Shane comes out and he basically addresses the fact that people have come there to see racist joke.
And he's like, that's not what I do.

Speaker 2 Like a Chinese. Yeah.
And he, and he didn't. And then he, he subverted the whole thing and he joked about it.

Speaker 2 And then he, and even now, like, I go genuinely, Shane Gillis is one of the people where, and I don't think anyone quote unquote, let's say, has an excuse, but he would have had an excuse to be an asshole.

Speaker 2 Shane was like, no, he's like, hey, man, I made some jokes. You didn't like them.
I'm still going to make jokes. And genuinely now, I think he's one of the best comedians working in the world.

Speaker 2 And when you watch his comedy, I don't care what you are, by the way, conservative, liberal, whatever you think you are, Shane Gillis is funny.

Speaker 2 But I also think it's amazing to see somebody who was able to withstand the, the, like, the, you know, the, the horde that. supports the worst instincts.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, because someone, one person can go, Neil, how could you say that? You get canceled.

Speaker 2 And then what happens is there's a crowd that comes in to like claim you, yeah, and they're like, Yes, Neil, yes, yeah, join us, all the things, yes, and and you know how we feel about those people.

Speaker 2 And you're like, Man, I just made a joke that some people didn't like, and they're like, No, but Neil, do only those jokes, yeah.

Speaker 2 And Shane, I don't know like how he did it as a human because that must have been really hard. I think he shrugged it off, he just seemed to kind of go, Oh, I don't know how, though.

Speaker 2 This next segment, Core Memories, is brought to you by Starbucks. The holidays aren't just about grand gestures, but the little moments that bring warmth, connection, and joy to the season.

Speaker 2 I remember the first time I experienced a winter Christmas in America. It felt like I was stepping into a movie.
Because you see, back home in South Africa, Christmas is all about summer, right?

Speaker 2 It's barbecues, cold drinks, and running around outside in the sun. That's how I grew up.
But here I was, sitting by the window, watching snowflakes fall. Something I'd only ever seen on TV before.

Speaker 2 Everything felt so still, like the world outside had been wrapped in a thick, cozy blanket. Inside it was warm, almost too warm to be honest.

Speaker 2 The heat was on, and there was a smell of cinnamon in the air, which, by the way, Americans love.

Speaker 2 I couldn't help but laugh at myself. I was bundled in three layers of clothing, even though everyone else seemed perfectly comfortable in their one sweater.
A very ugly sweater.

Speaker 2 We spent the evening indoors, playing board games, where people were fighting over sheep. I still don't understand what that game was about, but what struck me was the coziness of it all.

Speaker 2 Everyone gathered together, and the sound of laughter filled the room.

Speaker 2 It was such a contrast to the Christmases I had grown up with, where everything was loud and outdoors, and this was slower and it was more intimate. And honestly, I loved it just as much.

Speaker 2 There's something magical about being stuck inside because of the cold, surrounded by people you care about while the rest of the world feels like it's standing still.

Speaker 2 That was the moment I realized Christmases aren't really about the weather or the food. It's all about who you spend it with.

Speaker 2 There's no denying, moments like these are so much more magical when they're paired with the comforting flavors of the holiday season.

Speaker 2 Create core memories this holiday season. Order your favorite holiday beverage on the Starbucks app today.

Speaker 2 You get in trouble from time to time, and I don't say that joking, but I'm saying, how do you, how do you, how do you,

Speaker 2 what's your philosophy? So it's funny, Christiana and I were talking about this. We're literally talking about this.
So, like after the Tanahasi episode on the podcast, right?

Speaker 2 I had, you name it, I had people phoning me, everybody from everywhere.

Speaker 2 You know, so every, like you run the spectrum from friends, friends, close friends, going like Trevor, like, how could you have that man on?

Speaker 2 And that is extremist and it's anti-semitic and and this is trash and why would you even sit there and listen to him and all the way through to strangers just being like this is why you should be dead i wish apartheid had killed you and blah blah blah blah blah so you got my message

Speaker 2 and the two of you know me in those moments more than most people right

Speaker 2 and the first thing i do is listen because i go like all right tell me everything just tell me everything you know and so like a friend of mine would just be like, oh, he's like, you know,

Speaker 2 I can't believe you. Why didn't you ask Tanahasi this? And why didn't you ask him?

Speaker 2 And I responded and I said, I was like, hey, the same way if somebody's coming to talk about like their documentary about something that happened in Israel, I'm not going to push them on everything about what's happening in Gaza because this is the part of the story that we're here to talk about.

Speaker 2 And it was, it was interesting. Like when I have those conversations, I just listen to what the person is saying, what they're feeling, and then I try and understand where we are missing each other.

Speaker 2 You know, so the one note, for instance, I said to a friend, one of my friends, he was like, I hated the fact that

Speaker 2 you talked about Jewish people and then you talked about Israel, and you talked about Jewish people, but then you conflated the two. And I was like, Oh, yeah, actually, you're right.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I was like, Well, that's what I'm curious about. How much

Speaker 2 because I find that how much does your

Speaker 2 listening affect your judgment? Can I say something?

Speaker 2 How big is the how much growth is there? Go ahead.

Speaker 1 Because to me, I always see Trevor as very like unflappable. Maybe that's like the Swiss German, like the veneer of like, no, he seems unflappable.

Speaker 1 So I was like, because it was like the backlash was a bit weird. So I hit him up, but I think Trevor just heals quickly and better.
I call him Wolverine. Like heals very quickly and better.

Speaker 2 Because he takes a ton of steroids.

Speaker 2 No, maybe. I don't know.
It's the shrooms, I think.

Speaker 1 But no, like, I think he does feel it. That's what I'm feeling.

Speaker 2 No, I feel it.

Speaker 2 He feels everything.

Speaker 1 He's such a Pisces.

Speaker 2 I feel feels everything you know he's very sensitive no i am very sensitive and i feel

Speaker 2 i wouldn't have no i'm like but you don't i know so you don't see it so there's a few things that have you asked me this question and i i realize there's a few things that have helped me understand this and and it's funny because i i think neil you'll have something similar but different because of your upbringing so first of all i grew up in a house and in a country where there was a lot of violence, right?

Speaker 2 And so when I was a child watching this, I never once looked at it and went, Yeah, this is this is right. I even talk to my mom now, and I go, Why would you get so angry when you were hitting me?

Speaker 2 And she's like, Because you wouldn't listen. I'm like, Yeah, but why do you get angry though?

Speaker 2 I was like, You know, you could have just like done it as like a, all right, kid, here comes your punishment.

Speaker 2 And then she would say, She's like, I was so frustrated. And I was like, I was like, I know I, you know, cut something open.

Speaker 2 I know I dismantled the TV, I know I burnt down a room, I know, whatever I did.

Speaker 2 But even me as a child, I would go, huh, that was not ideal, but I'm not going to lose my cool over this. And then I'd get my beating and then I would cry and I'd feel it.
I'd feel everything.

Speaker 2 But the thing that would stick with me is how it didn't make sense for people to lose their cool.

Speaker 2 And I, you know, I talk to my friends about it, and we have these big fights, but I go, every one of our parents, especially African parents, but I mean, I know, you know, how Neil grew up.

Speaker 2 Yo, parents were beating kids. And this was like a normal thing.
And now we joke about it. You'd be like, oh, you pray there's no shoe around.
And you pray like Eddie Murphy had those jokes.

Speaker 2 And we all laughed about it. But I think I grew up watching this going, huh? This is not, it doesn't seem to be ideal.
And it doesn't seem to get where I'm going.

Speaker 2 So maybe what I did a little too much was I internalize it. So I keep it in me.
But then what I do is I, and that's where ADHD helps. I'm having six conversations now at the same time.

Speaker 2 So you're speaking to me and I'm listening to what you're saying. And then I'm sort of going to like one tree, which is like, okay, how do I agree with you? How do I disagree with you?

Speaker 2 What's happening here? What's not happening here? Do I connect with you? Do I not connect with you? Can I see your humanity?

Speaker 2 And I always go, if I see you as a person, which I do with most human beings on this earth, genuinely, I go, like, I'll still find something to connect with you on.

Speaker 2 And so on the other side of it, when you ask me, like, how much does it change me? I genuinely listen. So a person almost only has to tell me once.
And I will keep that because it means something.

Speaker 2 So when my friend said to me, my friend who's Jewish and spent time in Israel said, I didn't like that you said Jewish and Israel, but you conflated the two. And I was like, oh, oh, okay.

Speaker 2 I will never do that again.

Speaker 2 But then when it comes to like arguing about whether or not it's an apartheid state, I said, you are my friend and I love you, but we're not going to agree on this.

Speaker 2 And I don't think we need to agree on this to remain friends.

Speaker 2 In fact, as my friend, I hope that you'll still keep me in your life and I will work to keep you in my life, but I don't want to lose you because of this thing, because there are so many things that we're going to disagree on.

Speaker 2 This is just one of the biggest ones, you know? And

Speaker 2 I don't know, you know, whether it's it's just this moment in time or social media, or I don't know what it is, but I feel like people are

Speaker 2 like people have less and less ability now to maintain friendships or to maintain connections that also hold a space of disagreement or conflict.

Speaker 2 It's the same thing, it's that thing about if I like, if I write haha to this text, you're you have this constituency in your head or imagined or whatever that I can't say disagree on this, but love you the same because then you'll lose your constituency.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And you see, for me, that I don't think that's,

Speaker 2 I don't think that moves us forward

Speaker 2 because I've always believed that people don't change by hanging out with people who are like them. I agree.
I think we change by rubbing on each other. Just rubbing off on each other.

Speaker 2 And I think the common humanity, that's why I come back to stand-up.

Speaker 2 I think of the comedians I used to meet in comedy clubs, and I still till this day.

Speaker 2 I mean, everything racist, misogynistic,

Speaker 2 whatever you want to call it, but they were also human beings. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 And I'm not excusing any of the things they did the same way I'm sure someone wouldn't excuse some of the things I did or said as a person. You all have your faults.

Speaker 2 But I would, the one thing that would connect us first and foremost is that we were comedians. You remember, we'd even say as comedians, you'd be like, man, have you seen that guy's new bit?

Speaker 2 It is the most racist racist bit you've ever seen. But God, it's funny.

Speaker 2 And holding that paradox, holding that cognitive dissonance, I think was key to us.

Speaker 2 And you would see not all, but you would see a lot of the comedians evolve over time because society would evolve and you would shift and you would, and you'd find a lot of the comedians who were doing the jokes they were doing back in the day wouldn't do them anymore and they would evolve slowly.

Speaker 1 My objection to this primarily is like it's fine when it's all like theoretical. We're working on jokes.

Speaker 1 That person's a bit racist that person's a bit misogynistic but we're living in a time where womenly women currently can't get abortions in many completely so there's like real world implications whether it's sexism racism transphobia so i think it's it's difficult because

Speaker 1 these people in our lives that have unsavory views it feels like they're winning I feel like the world is shifting to the right. I feel like the world is a scarier place.
And that's like just true.

Speaker 1 Like you look at elections, you look at all of this stuff.

Speaker 1 And so it's like, it's harder for people to be like, well, I can, I can see you as a whole human being when your vote is the reason that like I was terrified to do IVF in Texas because I was like, well, I'm a woman with a history of loss.

Speaker 1 And if I need to get a DNC, will I be able to get one? Will a doctor give me one? Right. So there's like real world implications for like these controversial.

Speaker 1 right wing or even like super far left ideas. And some people are like, I actually don't want to be around that in my personal life.
And I don't blame them.

Speaker 1 Do you you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Of course, that's I, in I, the two thoughts I had is it's a bit like being friends with people, two people who don't get along,

Speaker 2 and you're like, ah,

Speaker 2 I was just with

Speaker 2 you, you have lunch with somebody, yeah, yeah, and then you go with the enemy, and then you're like, Yeah, and you're like, Am I a piece of garbage?

Speaker 2 Both of these people have been good to me. Yeah, and then the other thing I, the other thought I had was:

Speaker 2 does

Speaker 2 do jokes lead to action? If you make a joke, does that mean you stand with

Speaker 2 that? Yeah. And I be and that, that's where comedy comes in, because it's like, do I? I don't know.
I can make a joke about anything. I don't stand with it.
It just, my brain made,

Speaker 2 did that construction and I was like, this might be fun.

Speaker 1 But if a comedian does their job properly and the joke is good enough, you won't get in trouble.

Speaker 2 So I used to think that, but then I realized we've robbed the world of context. You know, and on one of the the previous, one of our previous episodes here, when Yuval Noah was here,

Speaker 2 the author of Sapiens and the Nexus, he said something that really stuck with me.

Speaker 2 And it was, we are living in an age where we have more information than we've ever, ever, ever, ever, ever had in our lives.

Speaker 2 We have access to more information, but we don't have enough time to process it.

Speaker 2 And I think the problem with...

Speaker 2 like comedy now, let's say, or jokes even, is there's no context anymore.

Speaker 2 Then, even when Twitter began the first people who followed comedians on twitter and people all agree that this was a place where people are making jokes they are not real things right

Speaker 2 and then the context spread the algorithm moved things around now you're sitting at home minding your own business you're a super religious person and then some video will come on your feed where someone's trashing religion making jokes about it and you're like you get angry but there's no context you didn't want to see that yeah you didn't ask to see and that's i think that's like one of my key issues with social media is the fact that people are not asking to see.

Speaker 2 They're not opting in in any way. You know, I feel like it should be like an opt-in as opposed to an opt-out.

Speaker 2 But people are seeing videos that they don't want to see, videos that are like actively making them angrier, sadder, more afraid, etc.

Speaker 2 And I think that's actually hurting comedy and hurting the idea of comedy as opposed to it being or not being. Doesn't make sense.
I also think there's some things that people should be shame.

Speaker 1 Listen, I like shame. I'm not like Windows Brand.

Speaker 2 I like shame. i'm window do you know and i'm just like it's one of my kinks whether you're a comedian whoever you are

Speaker 2 i don't kink shame you know i'm proud of

Speaker 2 so the one place doesn't shame is kink okay no okay

Speaker 2 there's some things that if either way i have an erection go ahead

Speaker 1 okay neil no i'm just like there's some things if you say them they could be consequences like I know every time I say something, something I'm trying to teach my kids, something if I've had to learn the hard way is like, you say stuff, sometimes people get offended, and there's going to be a backlash.

Speaker 2 So you're correct in that

Speaker 2 civil rights are a little wobbly in certain respects, right?

Speaker 2 And, but there's also people, there's a huge incentive to grievance. There's a incentive.
The incentive to being in a conversation used to be somebody make a joke, you'd laugh.

Speaker 2 The incentive was to like be agreeable and be open to. To join, yeah, in some way.
And now the incentive is to take offense

Speaker 2 and to be like,

Speaker 2 this is a chance for me to get all my picket signs out and represent for my invisible constituents.

Speaker 1 I agree, but I think we're also in a time for a lot of people where they feel there's a lot to be aggrieved about. I agree.

Speaker 1 So we just have to acknowledge that like people are constantly offended because the world is very offensive.

Speaker 2 The issue I have with it is that

Speaker 2 is the getting offended.

Speaker 2 It is you on the other side of getting offended. And I, okay, I say this from the, let's take comedy out of it for a moment.
I think of language.

Speaker 2 So I speak many languages, as you know, Neil Brennan.

Speaker 2 And one of the things I love about speaking multiple languages is the fact that you learn how offensive the same thing is in another culture, in another language.

Speaker 2 You didn't change anything. You moved your hand in a different way.
You did a thumbs up in one country and they're like, what did you say about my father? And you're like, wait, what?

Speaker 2 You put your hand under your chin in one country. And they're like, what are you saying about my family?

Speaker 1 But Trevor, don't you adjust? No, no, no, let's.

Speaker 2 You adjust in different contexts, right? But that's because I've moved to places, right? We are no longer moving. So we now live in a place where there's nine different languages.
That's what I mean.

Speaker 2 So we're no longer moving. Before it made sense, I go to Dubai.
When I'm in Dubai, I acknowledge I'm in the United Arab Emirates. I will respect the cultures and the laws accordingly.

Speaker 2 When I go to South Africa, I know my people. I will respect my people and I will work accordingly.
I do this everywhere in the world. But now I'm not going anywhere.
You're not going anywhere.

Speaker 2 You're not going anywhere. You're at home tweeting your friend, TikToking your people.
You're not going anywhere. And then it takes you where the people don't agree with you, but you didn't go there.

Speaker 2 That's what I'm trying to say. And so the problem with offense is that everything is offensive to everyone if there is no context.

Speaker 2 So you can literally say something, you could say to your own grandparent, you'd be like, How old are you, Granny? And they'll be like, 93. They're like, whoop, it's almost time.

Speaker 2 And your grandparent laughs. Ha ha ha.
Yeah. You take that video, you put it on your own social media page for you and your few fans and your people.
You might have 20 followers.

Speaker 2 For some reason, it sparks something.

Speaker 2 All of a sudden, there's a delusion of people coming to you saying, How dare you? Do you know what ageism does to our culture?

Speaker 2 You're discarding, I don't care that they laugh, they probably laugh because they're scared of you. And you and you're like, No, this is my grandparent.
They taught me this humor.

Speaker 2 I'm laughing with them. For instance, I've seen comedians, and you've seen this.
I've seen comedians who have disabilities, deaf,

Speaker 2 blind, they have MS, cerebral palsy, whatever it is. They make a joke online.
People don't know that they have that disability. And they just come off them.
How could you?

Speaker 2 How dare you, piece of trash?

Speaker 2 And then their fans come in and go, excuse me, they have the disability. And then people are like, oh, I didn't know.

Speaker 2 Oh, I'm so old. Well, that's so funny.
And I'm like, what just changed?

Speaker 2 Nothing has changed. Your context and the way you saw the thing changed.
And so I do agree with you. Yes, words of consequences, yes.

Speaker 2 But I think we should never take for granted our participation in some of these ideas where we are choosing to get angry on some of it. We are choosing to take it like and make it like, ah,

Speaker 2 personally, I do this in my life with my friends, with my people. I encourage people to just, it's almost like filtering.
Focus on the things that you should actually be angry about

Speaker 2 because there's a lot of things that actually, it's like, oh, you just, you just misinterpreted it.

Speaker 2 You really just misinterpreted it. It's a different perspective, different language, different culture, different vibe, different story, and it actually doesn't spoil your life.

Speaker 2 We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

Speaker 2 I don't know what the solution to this is, but I still go back to my belief that the solution doesn't lie in people siloing themselves.

Speaker 2 I believe as Trevor, this person

Speaker 2 has no incentive and will never even shift a little bit if I'm not in their life. And I will never see their perspective if I'm not in their life.

Speaker 1 Trevor, you have that kumbayamun mandela.

Speaker 2 But it's not kumbayam.

Speaker 2 No, but it's something

Speaker 2 no, no.

Speaker 1 I'm saying, okay, Trevor hired me because I was on Twitter talking shit about the daily show.

Speaker 2 That's how we met. That's the type of person.
No, that's not why. You see, the why was wrong.

Speaker 1 Wait, but wait, no, but you came across my tweets. You're like, yes.
Oh, this person really disagrees with what I'm doing at the daily show.

Speaker 2 You found me interesting, interesting, my mind, but like, no, I'm complimenting you.

Speaker 1 He's the type of guy that we like to see those tweets. You know what? You know what? I'm gonna hire that bitch.
That is Trevor.

Speaker 2 Like, he just is that's a direct quote. A direct quote.

Speaker 1 But it's like, even the way he had his rhythm is written.

Speaker 2 And look at where we are now. It's something

Speaker 2 you are part of helping me win an Emmy. You are part of helping make the show the best thing it's ever been.

Speaker 1 I'm like, I don't know how you hold that. It's something I really admire as someone who can be very tribal.

Speaker 2 Actually, politically, my friends are all over the world. Have you changed in any way? That's what I'm saying.
She definitely has.

Speaker 2 I've changed my opinion about lots of stuff. Oh, here's the thing.

Speaker 2 Do I completely disregard that version? So, can I just say something about both of you real quick?

Speaker 2 As your friend, both of you, I've seen both of you change because of me, and both of you have changed me because of you, because you're in my life.

Speaker 2 So, Christiana, I've watched you become funnier and looser as a person in the time that I've known you. Like, I've literally watched you when, so

Speaker 2 I like what you said, but like, with the Twitter thing, yes, you were trash-talking me and trash-talking the daily show and everything.

Speaker 2 But more importantly, I saw somebody who was super smart, really into like the way you saw the world and the way you understood ideas and what you brought in and your journalistic brain.

Speaker 2 I was like, damn, this is amazing. I didn't, I wasn't hiring people on Twitter who were just like, Trevor Noah, you suck.
Get back your country.

Speaker 2 I wasn't like, Yeah, this person needs to come to the daily show. Yeah, it's not about that.
I'm able to look at it. I already worked there.
Go ahead.

Speaker 2 I'm able to look at the thing that lies beneath how you respond to me. No, I admire it.
And so, like, so when I look at the two of you, you've become funnier, like more chill, more everything.

Speaker 2 Right, Neil, let me tell you something. When I met Neil Brennan, so I'll take you on a little journey.
When I met Neil Brennan for the very first time,

Speaker 2 I was on Twitter, and this was the good old days of Twitter where people were just making jokes. There was nothing serious on it, it was just jokes.
Christiana came in on private. Go ahead.

Speaker 2 And it was just jokes. And I remember Neil had really funny jokes on Twitter.
And I was like, this guy's funny. And I followed him.
And then it said co-creator of Chappelle Show.

Speaker 2 And I was like, wait, what? And I went in and I didn't, I hadn't even like watched the Chappelle show in that way. I never had cable.
I couldn't afford it. All these things.
Sob story, whatever.

Speaker 2 You know, copper roof. Yeah, you know how it is.
You know how it is. Whatever.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tough, tough life.
Let's keep it moving. But I then went and I watched the show.
And then I saw the first sketch, the black, white supremacist.

Speaker 2 And then you're in the back there and your head explodes.

Speaker 2 But then I started researching. I was like, damn, this guy's funny.
And he's he's just been in everything that I love so I follow him on Twitter and now I just love his jokes

Speaker 2 and then I come to America for the first time doing like random shows and I meet him at the comedy store in Los Angeles and I'm walking through the corridors there very dark very like sad satanic energy it really is and and I walked in and I saw his face and I was like wait a minute it's like Neil Brennan and he I was like I know you.

Speaker 2 He's like, doesn't everyone?

Speaker 2 Were you from another country? Yeah, it was very like, it was very like, I was like, wow.

Speaker 2 And I was like, what? And I was like, I was like, yeah, hey, nice to meet you. I was like, I love you.
I follow you on Twitter, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 And Neil was like, very dismissive. Neil was like, ah, okay, whatever, man.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 like, just very like, you know, leaning against the wall, like, like, it's almost like a scene from Greece, but without the leather jacket. It's just like leaning on the wall.

Speaker 2 He's like, whatever, kid, keep it moving. And I walk, I walked in, I went to do my sets or something.
And then when I was walking out, Neil goes, like, hey, wait a minute, where are you from?

Speaker 2 He's like, where are you from? And I was like, I'm from South Africa. And he's like,

Speaker 2 are you the guy? He's like, you followed me. I was like, yeah, I follow you.
He's like, you're the reason I've got people. What did you say?

Speaker 2 You said, you're the reason I've got people with exclamation marks in their names following me.

Speaker 2 That's what Neil said. Neil was like, I'm wondering.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you said, like, one day I was on my Twitter. Clicks.
And it was just like Brad and Jenny following me. And then the next day it was like

Speaker 2 terrifying. And I was like, that's my friend, Olisa, probably.
I told him about your tweets. And that's how we meet.

Speaker 2 Neil was like, and I hope you don't mind me saying, but like Neil was, I mean, you were grumpy. You were just like, the world is like.
Everything is bad. Yes.

Speaker 2 Energetically dark, always just like everything is shit. And God, what are you talking about? No religion.
And just like, and why are you smiling? He used to hate that I smiled.

Speaker 2 He's like, Are you serious?

Speaker 2 Neil would even say to me sometimes, like, what are you so happy about?

Speaker 2 I don't think I said he said that. I may have energetically said it.
He said, no, he said it. He said it.
He said, what are you so happy about? In fact, in fact, he has a fun story.

Speaker 2 Neil, and I've told the story before somewhere, I'm sure, but maybe with you. But like, Neil, I remember you and I were sitting in a random, it wasn't even a diner.
I don't know what it was.

Speaker 2 It was a diner. It was a diner

Speaker 2 in Denver. Neil was doing the improv, I think.
I was doing the comedy works. Okay, Okay, the comedy works.
So we're having a late, late, late dinner after this, like, you know, midnight type thing.

Speaker 2 We've both done our shows. And then

Speaker 2 classic Neil with his cynicism, you know, Neil's like, how was your weekend? Did you make enough money to barely pay for your flights and your food? You idiot, you African fool. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I was like, yeah, because we made no money. Yeah.
Basically, as a comedian, you were lucky if you came home with a little money from the road. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You were just breaking even.

Speaker 2 That's barely.

Speaker 2 This is 12 years ago. This isn't like forever ago, yeah.
This is 12 years ago. And

Speaker 2 at some point, Neil turns to me and he goes, What are you doing here? Yeah, and I was like, What do you mean? And he's like, Man, he's like, I've seen your life in South Africa.

Speaker 2 He's like, Why are you doing this? He's like, Go home. People love you.

Speaker 2 He told me to go back to where I came from. And he's like,

Speaker 2 People, people love you there. And you're doing arenas.
He's like, Here, you're in a comedy club where people came in for free and they don't know you. They don't even like you.
And he's like, What?

Speaker 2 He's like, America, he's like, America's not ready for what did you say? America's not ready for someone who don't like foreign

Speaker 2 comedians. Yeah, you were like, Americans don't like foreign comedians.
And then we went through a list and he wasn't wrong. He's like, Ricky Duray is the only one who made an impact.

Speaker 2 And they made a show, but they made Americans. Yeah,

Speaker 2 yes. And then, and then Neil said this to me, and we had this discussion back and forth for a while, back and forth for a while.
And I was like, oh, and I was, I took it in a good way.

Speaker 2 I was like, you know what, Neil? I was like, thank you. What like wonderful.
You're such a good friend. And he's like, I don't even know if I'm your friend.
We just, we're just going to save the city.

Speaker 2 But I always, and I've always seen this, you know, I've always said that. I was always like, what a sweet, loving guy.

Speaker 2 I was like, this is a sweet, loving human being who has been hurt by something and someone in the world. And now he wears like a little shell on the outside.
You saw me? Yeah, the same way I see you.

Speaker 2 The same way I see everyone, genuinely. We see past all this, Christiana, to the real you.

Speaker 1 I don't like to be seen, by the way. So this feels very uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 So I was like, this guy's a nice, because

Speaker 2 I think I meet people sometimes who are very nice, and I go, this person is an asshole, and I do not want to know them as a human being.

Speaker 2 They will burn your life down if they get the chance.

Speaker 2 And then I meet people who are prickly and I'm like, you,

Speaker 2 you're a good person. Yeah.
You know, you, you, you hide. I'd also like to say that once John Oliver made it, I called him

Speaker 2 and said, okay, you can come back.

Speaker 2 No joke. I stand corrected.
Yes. He literally phoned me.
Yes. And I was in South Africa.
Yes. I go, all right, you can come back.
That's interesting. Because there was no, it was kind of pointless.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But my point is.
When did he get sweeter? But this is what I'm saying. I got sweeter over time, especially in the last five years.
What happened? What made you?

Speaker 2 I remember telling you about therapy, and you were like, memory.

Speaker 2 You didn't tell me about therapy. No, I remember talking to you about therapy.
You were like,

Speaker 2 I've been going to therapy since I was 23. Yeah, but now you went into therapy.
But once Trevor told me about it. No, you know what I mean.
You opened your heart, Neil.

Speaker 2 I opened my heart from ayahuasca and DMT and MDMA.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry. I don't know how.

Speaker 2 Who did you tell about religion? Who did you call when you said, like, I now believe there might be a God?

Speaker 2 You were one of the first people I believe I called.

Speaker 2 Yep.

Speaker 2 So, because I knew he'd like it. But you know what, Trevor? Back to you.

Speaker 2 But you see, he cared about that.

Speaker 1 Trevor doesn't like to speak about him even.

Speaker 2 He even cared that I would love to. I remember what people are into.
It's like, who are my God? Which is a nice, that's what I mean. That's what I, and I genuinely.
Yeah, I never was a jerk.

Speaker 2 I seemed, I seemed jerky. That's my point.

Speaker 2 That's my point.

Speaker 1 But Trevor, the thing about you, because you don't like talking about yourself, but I want to make it about you that I find remarkable and I'm still learning is that you, you're, and I think it shows in your fans, in your life, you're able to have like this big tent where loads of different people can come in and you never feel uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 Like, you could just live in difference and tension.

Speaker 2 And maybe that's because of your childhood. Yeah, it's because of my childhood.

Speaker 1 But in a way that I'm, I'm still not there yet.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, but you were lucky you grew up like, first of all, you're Nigerian, so you've always had like your people. Yeah.
And then also like your family. And you're, I've grown up as a singular.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 I was and still am the only person in my family who even looks like me. Obviously, you can find features in my parents.
You'll be, oh, I see.

Speaker 2 But no, my mother's a different color to me. My father's a different color to me.

Speaker 2 We look. We are different people.
And in the family, I'm a different person. And do you get what I'm saying? So.

Speaker 1 Does that make you feel like lonely or you just?

Speaker 2 No, it was the opposite, funny enough. It didn't make me feel lonely because I don't spend all the time looking at myself, which is great.

Speaker 2 It's interesting that you say like you, or maybe you said it, like that you, because you are like kind of tribeless

Speaker 2 in terms of nobody looks like you. Nobody.

Speaker 2 So the whole, everyone's your tribe. You could take it as

Speaker 2 a prescription to be lonely. Yeah.
Or you take it as like, oh, all right, well, I guess I'm everybody. Yeah, no, I was always just like, oh, you know, because it was the only way I was.

Speaker 2 And I think most importantly, my tight nucleus treated me as the in. So it's not like my cousins treated me strange.
Not my grandmother, my mother, my nobody in my circle.

Speaker 2 I was Trevor, fully, fully just Trevor. And then

Speaker 2 because I understand other people's languages, I would find a way to get in quickly. And then my friends, very quickly, I mean, till this day, you all know my friends, but they just treat me like me.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So

Speaker 2 I don't even look down and be like, whoa, my skin is different than this.

Speaker 2 No, I don't do that. And so let me ask you this.

Speaker 2 Why do you think, I would love to know, why do you think as Neil, you were always more comfortable and more honest in black spaces than most white people?

Speaker 2 I never, I'm just never been that racist. I'd love that you say that.
No, because everybody's racist. No, like, I'm just thinking it's a matter of degree.
So I've just never been that racist.

Speaker 2 I had access because one of my brothers worked at the Wrigley Field. All of his co-workers were black.
They were always so nice to me.

Speaker 2 Eddie,

Speaker 2 Eddie, Michael Jordan, Spike Lee, Arsenio. Right.
I mean, this is like a creepy story.

Speaker 2 I'm like nine, right? Nine years old. I used to have to, Eddie's on Siren Live.
I used to have to run. My parents would get home.

Speaker 2 I used to have to run upstairs to hide that I wasn't watching it, right? Because they'd get home. I'm supposed to, I'm nine, supposed to be in bed.

Speaker 2 At a certain point, I say to to my mom, hey, you need to let me watch Saturday Night Live. It's important.

Speaker 2 I remember being nine and going, what are you talking about?

Speaker 2 It's important.

Speaker 2 Again, it's not even like,

Speaker 2 I'm so saintly. It's just like, it's stupid.
It's just like. It's illogical.
It's illogical. It's like.

Speaker 2 You and I immediately like, I was like, oh, I think I know what you're like. I don't care about, I don't care about your anything.

Speaker 2 It's like, I know what you're like, you're fucking you're a very opinionated person like okay yeah i'll see you at the next argument like there's no so it's just what it's not i don't know i just never really bought that into it in terms of

Speaker 2 uh like a social construction you i don't even it's you just wouldn't like this is the person yeah i don't know it's also just access

Speaker 2 what like the the most of sexism racism it's just all these separations that we deal with it's like if if what would I, if I was in your experience, what, what conclusions would I come to?

Speaker 2 If I was in yours, what conclusions would I come to? If I, it's like, I under, it's assuming that people are coming to conclusions for a lot, the same logic that I come to conclusions about.

Speaker 2 And not,

Speaker 2 uh, if I were black, I'd be, I, I'm mad as a white person.

Speaker 2 So imagine what I'd be like. And if I was a white man, I'd be so fucking rich.

Speaker 2 You can imagine. I'd be like, I say to my husband all the time, man.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 if they made me look like one of your friends i'm kidding it right now

Speaker 2 yeah so like i i

Speaker 2 don't sensing a movie here guys yeah but he wanted to be a black man

Speaker 2 someone she wanted to be a white man someone dropped one of these whites on our podcast

Speaker 2 uh yeah so i don't i think it's just theory of mind it's like what would it well i don't know that's if i were it's just assuming that someone's gonna think

Speaker 2 the same things you would think but if you were in that situation so you see, I come back to what I was saying now about sharing space with people.

Speaker 2 I listened to your story, and just listening to what you said, because of your brother, you went to a place where all of his co-workers were black at Wrigley Field.

Speaker 2 You're now associating and seeing black people in their fullness, in their completeness. It is a lot harder to be racist to black people when you know black persons.
It's a lot harder. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because you're like, no, I know, I know Dave, and I know Steve, and I know Daquan, and I know, like, I know, people. I know some are like this.
I know some are not like this.

Speaker 2 Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. You then go, now you're also in comedy, then you're in Chappelle's show.
Again, now you're experiencing black people from all different walks of life.

Speaker 2 Everyone from most deaf and television.

Speaker 2 I also think it's good personal experiences, meaning like Dave was, I don't know, we just got along. We were like close.
We were like in

Speaker 2 close at the same age, 18, 19.

Speaker 2 He was nice. We wrote, he gave me an opportunity to write hat babe with him.
A lot of this is like, I feel it is like recompense for the opportunities that I've been given by Dave specifically.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 I give like black people all credit for that. A bunch of meaning like, okay, I'll try to hire as many black people as I can because I can't, because white person hired me.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I kind of have to.

Speaker 2 Morally, I have to. If I believe in any sort of moral framework, I have to try to not be that racist.

Speaker 2 When you became more spiritual, I'd love to know,

Speaker 2 like you and I, many years ago, on the daily show, even we talked about depression and how it affects people differently. And this is before I knew I had ADHD.

Speaker 2 And then I was like, oh, mine's not like depression. It's just a byproduct of ADHD at times.
I want to know from you.

Speaker 2 What do you think some of the biggest blocks were to you

Speaker 2 figuring it out?

Speaker 2 You know, know, in one special, you're joking about wearing a device on your arm that electrocutes you to remind you to smile and seem more affable. Yeah.
This is a real thing. Yes.

Speaker 2 And then it zaps me and I smile. Yeah.
That's the cover art on Netflix, is me fake smiling

Speaker 2 from being zap. Yeah, but then now you smile more as a person.
You just generally.

Speaker 2 What do you think was the. And it's not the,

Speaker 2 let's start with the thing that you did, but tell me what you discovered that shifted shifted you out from under the cloud. It's the, I mean, it's, it's, it's very dangerous.
Ayahuasca 5MeO DMT

Speaker 2 and then MDMA.

Speaker 2 I wouldn't recommend it because it's like it the 5MeO DMT, I like kind of lost my mind for a couple days.

Speaker 2 But those

Speaker 2 in

Speaker 2 sequentially, that's how I did them, and they worked for me.

Speaker 1 Did you do under guidance or just by yourself?

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 there's like a person there, but like, they don't, they don't, they're not,

Speaker 2 there's like there, there are tribes on the Amazon who, who have a lot of experience and hundreds and thousands of years of sort of how to deal with certain things.

Speaker 2 And then there's people that I dealt with that, uh,

Speaker 2 they mean well.

Speaker 1 Neil, Neil, I'm curious, right? Because anytime I see you, you're working. I've never seen you like in a, because you don't want to hang out with black women, obviously.

Speaker 2 So like, I've never seen you socially.

Speaker 2 So, like,

Speaker 1 so like, no, I'm curious, what does your depression look like? Because, like, you know, there's always this image of like in bed, I can't work.

Speaker 2 I, I don't know how I was never

Speaker 2 trying to, I tried to work my way out of it. Okay, so that's why you always achieved my way out of it.
Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like, if I could get an achievement, which I think we've talked about before, it's like, you get an achievement, you get a kind of a, a adrenaline spike that you take for good feeling, or you get an ego boost, which you take for good feeling.

Speaker 2 Um, and then you kind of just like, ah, and then it wears off. You're like, I gotta do something else.
Okay. Um, and that's what they call a career.
Okay. Um, so,

Speaker 2 but yeah, the, the, so I did all that stuff. It more, it's, it's more a matter of changing my relationship to

Speaker 2 the facts of my life, meaning I'm incredibly lucky.

Speaker 2 I used used to think I was unlucky. Yeah, you did.

Speaker 2 I really thought I was unlucky. I really thought I was like a, I like

Speaker 2 reason for grievance.

Speaker 2 And, and then I realized like, no, I, now I have a, a new idea, which is like, life isn't fair. Uh, no one's life should be as good as mine.

Speaker 2 Like, I was dead wrong about what I thought was happening. Even the things that I thought were negative were positive.
And it is like a everything was your friend. It's all been good and it's all

Speaker 2 been to my favor. Even if it's in the, I sent you that thing the other day about,

Speaker 2 it's a Buddhist story about like, yeah, you never know. You never know what something means.
Chappelle Show ends. I'm like, hmm.
I never would be a comedian if it didn't end.

Speaker 2 Like all these things that I think

Speaker 2 were negative were positive, just in a different time frame.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 that's the biggest takeaway is that, like, changing my relationship to the facts of my life. And I do a thing where I literally write the facts of my life down several times a day.
Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 Like, journal. Yeah, but I call it a checklist to make it masculine.

Speaker 2 Because journal,

Speaker 2 but I call it like a checklist of like the facts of my life. Okay.
Like, you are this, you are this, you are this, you are this. You got to do this.
You got to do the

Speaker 2 how, Like, this is incredible. Just enjoy yourself.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think that's a good, good advice for anything. It's like, I can stay mad all the time in this situation, or I can take this as an opportunity for whatever, you know.

Speaker 2 And so for me, it goes back to what we were saying about a fence.

Speaker 2 It lives in the same world.

Speaker 2 I think in everything I'm hearing you saying,

Speaker 2 the facts didn't change. You know, your house, your car, your life, your job, your friends,

Speaker 2 your opportunities, that didn't change. Your relation to them changed, your relationship to them changed.

Speaker 2 And that's what I think about, funny enough, with genuinely how we see the world a lot of the time, with its, you know, things online that offend us, people that make us angry, stories.

Speaker 2 A lot of the time, it's just your relationship to it.

Speaker 2 is acknowledging the fact is it has happened or you're seeing it.

Speaker 2 But now what is my relationship to it? And just shifting that lets you off the hook from feeling like you're wearing a weighted vest. That's what I hear.
It's so hard though. Oh, it's incredibly hard.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that. But, but even like being a mom, I'm sure, is like really

Speaker 2 tries your patience. Yeah.
And you could occupy that space of like

Speaker 2 just being aggravated all the time, which I think a lot of parents did for a long time. Or you can just be like,

Speaker 2 it's,

Speaker 2 I can't, I'm going to feel this way and i have to figure out how to deal with it yeah i i mean i just like surrender yeah that's the yeah that my girlfriend says that all the time it's the most zen thing in the world it's just like he i have a four-year-old they're gonna be four yeah until he's five and then they're gonna be five and then he's gonna be five apparently yeah so yeah which is his own and just like the surrender and the the acceptance of like this is what it is i can either look at it and be have my fistballed up all the time or i can just be like okay this is, I got, I'm here.

Speaker 2 I'm here. I might as well enjoy it, which is the corniest, tritest.

Speaker 2 Which is scary when you're talking about

Speaker 2 it.

Speaker 1 I like to strive.

Speaker 2 I love shit.

Speaker 2 But I think life is a balance between the two.

Speaker 2 I think if we live only in the moment, we neglect. Yeah, people that live in the moment are, it should be noted, are incredibly boring.
Yeah, you should speak to me. I think you should honestly.

Speaker 2 I think it's about finding a balance. That's hard.
And it's almost two ideas. It's almost impossible because it's like how you look at it, how you choose to relate to it, how you move through.

Speaker 2 And sometimes you're not choosing it actively, but that's, but that's how I do it. But that's how I understand, as Neil Brown pointed out.

Speaker 2 A bunch of stuff was falling on me, and then I just tried to make it fall on me in a different way.

Speaker 2 And enough. And that, like,

Speaker 2 yeah,

Speaker 2 and I'm incredibly lucky.

Speaker 2 I would argue most people hearing this are incredibly lucky in that like you probably have enough money to all the things, the infrastructure that is in place for you to have Spotify have Spotify or anywhere you get your podcast

Speaker 2 fantastic yo Neil this was

Speaker 2 every time I speak to you it's a joy but this this was this was extra special thank you for thanks for joining us thank you Neil which if someone has to watch one of your specials now which one do you want to watch crazy good crazy good

Speaker 2 all right it's got the most timely joke in the well for me I think of it like like Star Wars go watch the trilogy. Yes.

Speaker 2 If you watch Three Mics and you watch Blocks and then you watch Crazy Good, you will know this Neil Brennan and you will see the full episode. Yeah, you will see it.

Speaker 1 So different in my last time I saw you was before Trevor quit the show.

Speaker 1 Three years, I haven't met this Neil, and it's good, good vibe. Well, you know, you got that dad energy in a good way.

Speaker 2 I can tell he's with a four-year-old.

Speaker 1 No, I can tell he's with a because you're like, being with a four-year-old kind of does something to you, and you're like, yeah, just fight with him.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Who is this Neil?

Speaker 2 I fight children. We'll save that for another episode.
Neil, thank you so much, man. Thanks for having me.
Bye.

Speaker 2 What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jodi Avigan.

Speaker 2 Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer.
Music, Mixing, and Mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 2 Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?