Marc Maron

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I hope you're prepared because I'm a notoriously difficult interview. I don't know if you know that.
Oh, no, I don't, but that's very exciting for me. You got to stay on it.

Welcome back to Everybody Knows Your Name. Today I'm joined by an actor, comedian, and one of the godfathers of podcasting, Mark Maron.
He's been the host of WTF with Mark Maron since 2009.

And in that time, he's talked with pretty much everyone. I mean, everyone.
His 1,600-plus episodes have included guests like Barack Obama, Robin Williams, Anthony Bourdain, Ted Danson. I know.

I know what I did. I slipped it in there.
I'm aware of that. Anyway, one of Mark's special powers is how he can weave humor with aging and death.

That's actually the subject of his most recent comedy special, From Bleak to Dark. Thrilled to have him on this show.
Here he is, Mark Mara.

So I literally had this thought of you should run for office.

Yeah, I don't know. I'm sure it would suck for you personally, but you, my brain went like this.
Yeah. Sobriety,

which means you're familiar with wanting to tell the truth and

not have secrets and all of that stuff. You have balls of steel because you're a stand-up,

and that means you're going to step up and you don't really care. You do a little about what people think.

You're willing to take shots and still hold true to your whatever it is, your belief system or whatever. Yeah, and that's so rare nowadays that I went, yeah.
yeah.

The idea of running for politics in the culture that we live in now, you know, despite sobriety, fine. Secrets, you know, in sobriety, you've worked through a lot of stuff.

And some of that, you know, you tell your sponsor or you tell the people that you're supposed to. And those things,

anyone who is sober has got some stories. And some of those stories, yeah, I don't need them brought up.
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And I hate to say, like, you know, I'm sorry, Ted, but I just, I don't want to be part of it because I'm I'm too nervous.
Yeah, but that's my truth

or even worse. Yeah.
You know. Yeah.
But, you know, I'll speak out on stage and on my podcast and I and I tend to feel a certain amount of pride in being a voice for people who might not have one.

But it's usually around, you know, depression and,

you know, sort of moving through life with the obstacles of being emotionally hobbled or psychologically frail. What do you mean? Well, I just mean hobbled.

Well, I mean, you know, you come from a certain world. You have certain parents and there are certain ways that you're wired that you're not going to be able to unfuck.

And so you kind of live with them and you're sort of like, well, you know, I got some little problems with intimacy and trust and, you know, generally

somewhat self-centered. So how do I constantly be vigilant around behaving appropriately within the context of whatever I was brought up with? Right.
So see, that's

even this podcast, I sit there going, oh, shoot, my granddaughters. Oh, I don't know if I, oh, my parents, they're not even alive, but oh, my parents.
Yeah.

You know, well, I can't say that or I shouldn't do that. I have so many fucking shoulds and shouldn't.
Oh, I'll throw my parents right under the bus at any opportunity. Yeah.
Yeah, sure.

And I don't have kids or grandkids, so I don't have to worry about that. Yeah.
But the type of emails I get in terms of what I do generally, you know, outside of, you know,

trying to talk about the Israeli conflict are generally emails like, sort of, hey, you helped me through a dark time. Really appreciate it.
I got sober because of you. Those are big.
Yeah, sure.

Recently, I've been talking about colonoscopy on stage, and I literally do a PSA to preface the bit. I'm like, if you're a guy and you've been told you need one,

don't be a baby about your asshole. Just go.

And don't lie, because it's kind of enjoyable.

Well, I mean, well, the prostate exam is enjoyable. The colonoscopy, you're basically anally raped by a machine by professionals while you're sleeping, but it's to see if you have cancer.
So do it.

Just man up it. Do it.
It's the day before that sucks.

Oh, yeah. The bit I do is like, you know, you, you get a prescription and you go to the pharmacist and he puts two bottles on the counter and he says, don't go outside.

And, but oddly, you know, I got a note that was given to another comic that was left backstage for me from a guy who said that because I brought it up in the way I brought it up, he finally went.

Yeah. And they found two pop-ups.
I didn't follow up, but he went. Yeah.
It's not my job to follow up. It's just my job to inspire, Ted.
I inspire.

So if you had to name a philosophy that you have or a point of view that you're trying to get across, or maybe you're not at all in your podcast and your stand-up,

what would it be?

Do you have guardrails that say, I want to, this interests me, so I'll talk about this.

But my purpose in talking about this, besides being funny and entertaining, do you have one of those kind of things? Well, you know, I said something weird on stage.

It might have been last night for the first time in talking about, I performed at Largo, and I've been working out this new hour, you know, a new hour of stand-up because I did the special from bleak to dark, and it took a long time to put that together.

And the thing I said on stage last night, I said, I don't know that if I don't know that I got into comedy for money. I really think I got into comedy just to be seen.

And I think that's true. And I think

I never would put it that way. Being seen, being witnessed.
Yes. And I'm, you know, I'm doing like, you know, some pretty gnarly shit right now about stuff.

You know, and I think the last special was really a portal into something, you know, to be able to address grief the way I did, you know, kind of opened up possibilities in terms of, you know, what you can and can't make funny in a, in a, in a deep way, not just in a, a sort of like, because comedy kind of is also can be dismissive dismissive and act as sort of a you know kind of a buffer of feelings right right but to sort of go into the the the darkness or into you know whatever your personal uh you know uh sadness or whatever is and really kind of elevate it did you workshop that after lin died yeah did you workshop that special oh yeah for for for a year a year and a half so in the beginning i'm assuming the emotion was raw yeah no i i was doing small small shows at Dynasty Typewriter here.

Because I write on stage, like, you know, Richard and I are somewhere like that. You know, you make notes and then you g-riff.

So

what happened is I'd move through this stuff, you know, and that's how I write the act is I have an idea, you know, I start talking about it. And if it sort of sticks, it sticks in my head.

And then I kind of build it and hone it. But at the beginning of talking about grief,

I was doing a small theater and the people that came knew it was a workshop. So I was emotional.
I mean, I would cry sometimes,

and it would take, it took a while to talk about. But I said to them, I said, you know, I think there's got to be a way for me to talk about this up here.
So let's do it.

But you're, in essence, rehearsing.

something that was started out being very emotional. And then with rehearsing, you become intellectual.
So by the time you did the special,

was the emotion that you started with as raw, or had it become something that you were now not acting, but

acting?

Kind of. I don't know if it's quite acting.
I think that if, you know, if I am

true to myself in what I think comedy can do, that

I had to eventually frame it that way. If you love comedy and you are a funny person,

you're doing it to protect yourself from something or to process something.

So I don't know.

Things become an act, but know not unlike acting as you know that you know even when you're acting you know you've put those emotions in place you know for that character and and right

wife's divorcing me this this is horrible but man it's going to be great for my acting

no not quite like that but let's say you're playing that a lot of actors do feel that way i'm not saying you do sure but i well it gives you a new uh a source of emotions to draw from but when you're putting a character together and this guy's got to be you know sad you're going to tap into your sadness as a foundation.

So, you know, you just remove the character from that and the character is me. The sadness is real.
And so it doesn't, it's not entirely an intellectual exercise. Right.

You just learn how to manage the emotions. Right.
But

as an actor, I will find

an as-if,

not a literal. Right.
Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because if it's a literal, I may not be able to tap into it.

There's a lot of protection around it if I imagine one of my kids dying or something like that.

But if I take something right next door to that,

then I can

allow it to tap in. Yeah.
So I think I'm just thinking about it. I guess here's what I'm really saying is I cannot imagine losing my wife Mary.

I cannot imagine losing her suddenly out of the blue.

I just can't imagine how you how you had to process that.

Well, it was, you know,

I think grief is complicated because everyone's going to experience it and and i think that the idea of being public about it but also being respectful of her

uh

you know of her and and her family yeah for the most part i don't really know how they responded to it but but the the the one of the more difficult things

you know, outside of losing her was that we were fairly new relationship. You know, I'd known her for several years and we had been, but we weren't together that long.
And it was during COVID.

And, you know, I didn't really know her family yet. And, and, and all of a sudden, you know, she's, you know, has gotten sick very quickly and ended up in the hospital.

And I, I didn't even have numbers to call. I had to have an ICU nurse get into her phone to get me the numbers of people who I didn't even know which one was the dad, which one, you know,

but

there's no way to say anyone's grief is deeper than the others, but what others, but what I realized, you know, after she passed was there were people that had a whole history, you know, with this woman and a history I didn't know.

And

so I'm left with this idea that I had found the perfect partner. And

it was a sort of death of possibility, you know, that of the life we could have had. And also just being, you know, the guy who was there when this happened,

it was very complicated, but

it's still... the loss of somebody you love is just shattering.
And when it happens that quickly and totally unexpected,

there's nothing you can do to control it. But I knew a few things

fairly quickly that

it wasn't about me.

I'm not the victim here. This is not,

there has to be a way to sort of be with this.

And I chose to do it publicly because I don't think that... that people, I think we're terrified of death, obviously, of our own death and of the people we love, but it's inevitable.

And it's not really part of the cultural conversation. I think we do everything everything we can.
And

the very nature of capitalism is designed to keep us away from thinking about that stuff. It's what fuels it.

How can I not think about that? How about these chips? I don't want

to, at the end of life, all of a sudden have to stop living. I want to be able to make jokes.
Be

present, be at the same. I get to be alive until I'm not breathing.

And I don't want people to look at me like I fucked up somehow.

I don't want to, you know, usually you sit there and you look, oh, he died. Oh, what did he do? Oh, got it.
He did that wrong. I won't do that.
Right. Right.
You know, or boy, he fucked up. No.

You find that true?

In your world, in your age group?

Which part? Just that, like, because like what they do to fuck up? Yeah, because like I find that, like, I'm starting to see people die, obviously, and you have as well.

You've lost a lot of friends and some of them we know.

But for me, when I see that happening, you know, I have friends who are a bit older than me and who are sick. And

it's just heartbreaking because you realize like, you know, you very quickly go, well, well, what did they do? But the thing is, is that you get to a certain age and you're in the window. Yeah.

So, as my friend Jerry Stahl says, it's like, you know, something's in the mail for everybody.

So you don't know what that is. Yeah.

But you do know that it becomes more,

it happens more as you get to a certain age window.

So

I generally find that I feel terrible and I don't about someone's

what they're going through. And then it's sort of like, well, what do I do? Like my dad's, you know, in the, in the, he's in, he's in the dementia now, but he's still around, he's still engaged.

And I don't call him as much as I should. I mean, theoretically, like, why don't I just call him every day and say, what's up? Yeah.

Because I, I don't, there's something heartbreaking and hard about it.

But sometimes you just got to step up and ride it out, I guess.

Yeah. But I don't know if you're not.
Are you close with your dad? Yeah.

I'm close enough.

He lives in New Mexico. My mom's in.
In Albuquerque. In Albuquerque, yes.

You know, we've had our hard times, and

my parents were not great, but they weren't terrible. They were a little selfish.

Did you know they weren't great when you were a kid or not? Kind of. Just in hindsight.
No, kind of I mean yeah

my dad had you know his own you know kind of mental health issues he was a surgeon and you know at different points he was diagnosed as bipolar or depressed or you know narcissistic my mother had a

sort of a chronic kind of

I think her eating disorder was her job and

but but you know she's all right and and he's where he's at I usually how I frame my parents is that I don't I don't look at them as as parents I wouldn't go to them as parents they're just these people with problems I grew up with.

And so I which is true. It is.
They're a couple of nice kids who are doing the best they can. Right.
And had you. That's right.
Very young. Yeah.
Yeah. Really? Sure.
My mom was 22. That's young.
Yeah.

But I mean, it's what they did. And because of that, they're both still around and I'm 60.
Yeah.

You know, I'm like, and that, that weird age gap, you know, it switches because for years you're like, oh, my parents are old. Now you're like, oh my God, they're only 20 years older than me.

am i how'd that happen 20 years i know i look back mary and i have been together 30 years and i go it just was like yesterday then i go well 30 years from now oh oh shit right yeah yeah 15 years from now i know and did that yeah you can't go can't linger there too long no yeah and i think they i don't know if it's true of everybody but baby boomers yeah just think they're entitled yeah to live forever well yeah you guys you're a boomer i'm i'm the tail end.

I don't count myself as a boomer, but you're full in. Yeah, full in.

Is it time to pass the baton? No. Yeah, the great age of entitlement.
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, my parents, but yeah, in terms of him aging and stuff, it's, I'll tell you, losing Lynn sort of was,

I wouldn't call it a wake-up call, but it does sort of

bring you into reality. Yeah.
You know,

in a very brutal way. I mean, you know, you kind of expect your parents to pass.
You don't know how you're going to handle it. But all of a sudden, man, you know, people are dying.

And you get to an age where you're like, well, shit, no matter how much I don't want to do this or how I feel or whatever, they're going down.

You know, there are people like for some reason, you know, Saget's death had a huge effect on me because it was like, that was another one. It's like, what the fuck happened? Yeah.

You know, and he was such a, you know, fun, kind of loving guy. But I'll tell you, man,

you know, I've kind of, I tried to

show up for, for funerals, for other people. I didn't used to.
I wasn't, you know, I was afraid of it and I didn't want to deal with it.

But, you know, when he died and no one knew, like, what happened, you know, you still don't even know what happened. Right.
But like, I went to that funeral and I got, I live in Glendale.

So I got to drive past Mount Sinai, the cemetery every day. And like, I couldn't get it out of my mind for like a year that like that guy was just at home a week ago.

And now he's just in the ground up there. And I drive by it every day.
I'm like, oh my God. It's sobering, but not awful.
But I'm going to be cremated.

I have a hard time with the just laying there rotting. I decided that when I had my first MRI.
I was like, oh, no, I know it's silly because I'll be dead, but I'm not, you're not burying me in a box.

I'll go out. Thank you.
And they, and it's like, it's not even organic.

You know, like up in Mount Sinai, like they, they, they put the casket into, in the, in the hole in the ground is like fortified with cement. I mean, it's like just this.
crypt.

I mean, like the idea, especially with Jews, there was the wooden box for a reason. So eventually it'd break down and we can re-enter the ecosystem, not just be in this cement box, this tomb.

Like you go like where my grandparents are buried. This has gotten really upbeat.
No, this is what we, this is my. Oh, yeah? Yeah.

Like, you know, you start to realize like it's sort of disturbing, like, because they're buried in some weird old Jewish cemetery in like Elizabeth, New Jersey, in this industrial area, like that got built up after, but there's this little plot of land.

This is, you know, dead Jews in it. And like, you know, after a Jewish cemetery, especially with older ones, you start to, you know, if you go visit the grave, you can see the ground is sagged.

And it's like, well, I guess it's given way. They've begun

the journey back into the soil, you know? Yeah.

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My father died watching this old house, having had a steak and probably fibbed about the second drink he had. He sat down to watch it and

slowly went. And my mother said,

Ned, are you enjoying it from the, you know, she was changing into a nightcown or something and are you enjoying your show? And nothing.

So she went out and could see what was happening and held his hand so that, and there was a chair because this, you know, she's almost, I don't know, 85 at this point.

So she couldn't have gotten down on the floor with him, but she got to hold his hand and his pulse.

He called my daughter, my sister, to let, you know, say, come, come quickly, but then was able to sit with him.

My father, who never was great about being 100% truthful truthful in life and had secrets here and there,

and

took kind of the easy way, the unexamined, you know,

got a little Alzheimer's going,

but it works to my advantage. I got a second drink.

I remember the first time.

My mother, on the other hand, got pneumonia. She's about 89.

And the doctor said, you have to go to the hospital. You're going to die, Jessica.

She said, thank Thank God. She couldn't speak because she had this,

you know, she had had such bad coughing, she had swallowed something wrong. And so she had lost her voice almost completely.

And my sister and I, you know, oh, we're taking her home no longer to try to keep her alive. Yeah.
We're taking her home to be with her while she dies,

which took two weeks.

But when she got home,

she was very spiritual, very religious,

Catholic, and

was very excited about meeting her maker, you know, about going. See how that works? And when it works, it really works.
Yeah. It's like, finally, I get to meet the guy.
Yeah.

Gonna relax for eternity. Yeah.

And, and so. So did you get a priest of the house? No, because we were, we had the hospice lady came and said, well, this is not how this works.
Cause she, mom thought, oh, I've chosen to die.

Let's go. Let's do it.
We're off. And the hospice hospice said, no, it's going to take a while for your body to shut down.
And this will happen. This will happen.

But my mom couldn't speak or ask questions. And the hospice person said, and then we'll have

an opiate marphine. Yeah.
We went again. She went, my mom went, no.

And it was like, oh, my God. And my sister and I played this desperate game of charades with my mother.
She tried to think, no, she wanted to burn. And we kept going, burn, burn.
What?

What do you mean, burn? But we couldn't, she couldn't speak. She couldn't write.

And what she meant was that in some religions or philosophical thought, if you choose to suffer consciously at the end of your life,

choose to suffer, feel it all, that you can burn off some whatever karma, sins, whatever you want to hold it.

So she wanted the full month. She was burning.

Yeah.

That's interesting. Yeah.
Wow. They just let her burn, huh?

She had people from the,

I think, some Catholic order, a camp of monks, came down from Colorado and saying evening prayer. She had the passing of her dreams.
She really did. See, now, how is that not amazing? It was amazing.

And I remember watching it, last thing. Remember watching her

and she had no longer was really present. She had about two more days of her body.
shutting down, but she really wasn't there anymore. And I remember, and I had the night shift.

My sister watched her during the day. I watched her at night.
And I sat there and every spiritual idea, thought, book, what, you know, Zan,

whatever I had nibbled at or studied went flying out the window. Oh, wow.
And I realized, oh,

I don't know. Yeah.
I really, truly don't. Let's tell the truth, Ted.
Yeah. You don't know.

She might.

She will soon. She will soon, but you have no fucking idea.
And it was very humbling. And from that moment on, I went to, I'm going to try to do the best I can every day.

And that's my overview in terms of life.

Yes. And also just the, I think the hardest thing is just that acceptance.
It's like, sure, you don't know, but you might not ever. And it's inevitable.
Yes.

You know, you just, you know, you get in terms of spirituality, I don't really think in those terms, but, you know, I'd prefer not to go out slowly as my mind goes away yes it'd be nice if i went out pretty quick at choice yes you know i and i and i think about it pretty often uh just that the idea of nothingness you know i'm doing this big bit about uh right now about uh i passed out at the top of a mountain when i was hiking you did i did yeah i blacked out and i've kind of tied in you know

death and everything but but i was the But the essence of

the experience was that when you black out, I don't know if you've ever passed passed out, but when you pass out, it's like nothing's happening. Right.

Like there's nothing. And if you don't wake up, you wouldn't be the wiser.
And nothing, it's just nothing. Because when you wake up, you're like, oh my God, there was nothing going on.

And I'm like, if that's what happens, I'm okay with it. Do you know what I mean? It's fine because I'm not really going to know.
But it is sort of,

you know, kind of. disturbing to just

contemplate your absence, you know, but also like you've had parents pass and, you know, when Lynn went, you know, what happens really is then the living is just sort of like, well, what should we do with these shoes?

Yeah, I mean, that's what happens. That's the legacy.
Like, does anyone want this? Call your sister. Does she want this? All right.
So, and, and that's the horrible thing.

And you're like, well, what would the deceased want? Like, nothing.

What do they, what do you mean? What do they want? Joke's on you, not her. Yeah.
Yeah.

So do you do

spiritual? Yeah. No.

Yeah. After afterlife or not, not afterlife, but how about energy? Have you ever talked to a medium? Have you ever talked to anyone who knows a medium? No.

Because

you've decided something?

I don't.

It's bullshit. No, I mean, I've just realized that, like,

I don't, I'm not on that search for some reason. You know, my brother is.
is a little more, you know, he's gone through a lot of like,

what does it mean? Yeah. What's happening? How do I feel better? And And I don't have it in me for some reason.

I know like when people are like, do you believe in God? I'm like, I don't know if I give a shit, really.

I mean, I don't know.

To me, it's like the struggle to accept what is.

You know what I mean? I don't.

It seems that the basic payoff is that, yeah,

it's kind of sad ultimately. You know, you've done everything you could and then it's over.
But I don't find any solace in the idea of an afterlife.

I do, I feel like there's a universal order to things. It's kind of baffling and that I think we're well on the way of fucking up as humans.
But I don't, you know, I don't,

I don't lean on it too much other than I do think I am oddly not optimistic, but I enjoy

what's good in

people and I enjoy the struggle. And I, you know, and I, yeah, but I do not think about God.
I've meditated a bit and, you know, and I've done, you know,

I was brought up Jewish, which is completely a mystery.

I was doing a bit about that.

What was it? I say,

you know, people don't, when people don't really understand Jews,

they're, they're sort of like, well, you're Jewish. Are you religious? I'm like, no.

You know, they go, what is it? Like,

do you believe in, oh, no, yeah. You're a Jew.
Are you religious? I'm like, no, I'm a Jew.

We don't have to be religious. We're the chosen people.

You know what I mean? You guys are just going to have to live with that. There's nothing you can do to take that away from us.

But then at other times, I've said, well, do Jews believe in heaven? I'm like, it's not clear to me. I was never told.

I'm not sure. What about hell? Again, no idea.

I don't know.

To me, that's closer with my belief system or whatever is

the truth. You know,

I have talked to mediums. I've been in rooms where you would be hard pressed to explain what just happened if you tried to be logical about it.
Have you seen David Blaine? Yes.

Well, I mean,

was it magic? Was it a sleight of hand what you're saying that can't be explained?

No, it was, it was, I mean, I'm not going to do the thing, but it was truly, it'd be easy. It's easier for me to just believe that's true.
And not on a God,

not on a,

I don't know about something else, but I do believe that energy, just physics, does not just magically go away because whatever it is that's you and your thoughts,

that's physics. That's chemistry.
That's thoughts have energy. Yeah, I don't know the difference.
So energy just disappears when your body stops breathing? I don't.

No, I mean, I mean, but fine, that's all fine and good. But whatever you think is going to happen to that energy, you're not going to be like, oh, I'm finally energy.
Well, here's my point, though.

It doesn't fucking matter because the truth is you got to wake up and live today and try to be nice to people. You know, try to be nurturing.
Try to be kind. Try to be real.
Try to be truthful.

And that job remains the same no matter what your belief system is. Sure.
No matter what happens or doesn't happen, it's still.

Yeah, at different times I'm prone to mysticism. But yeah, the idea of being good and

don't

create emotional terror. Yeah.
Yeah. But that's not even a spiritual thought.
It's just like it feels better.

No, it's it's it's a trying to live a principled moral life, but accept that you are not perfect and make mistakes and that

you try to do better or you just turn it over to Jesus. It really depends on who you want to give responsibility for your fucked upness.
I'm embarrassed that I haven't known you for a long time.

I did your podcast and I thought, this is weird. I didn't know that this existed.
Weird ancient days of early podcasting when we were all just working out of our homes and our garages. Right.

But I mean, it was strange. I did this.
I made this. I know you did.
And I'm It's my fault. And I'm trying to learn from you.
Yeah, no, you're doing good. You're a professional.

But anyway,

I'm embarrassed to say that I'm catching up with who you are. And let me jump in here.

Before you do it,

I just wanted to put a tag on the last conversation about

spirituality. It's like I am prone to ridiculous mysticism

or things that transcend coincidence occasionally, and I have to reel myself back in.

And I just happened to have one of those today where, and it's just like one of these things and what do you do with this information in terms of energy or in terms of of of things that are you know beyond our understanding for some reason i've had you know a traveling willbury song stuck in my head you know for like two days and i don't even i don't even really like them but uh you know uh you know it was okay i like them all separately but i'm not particularly fond of jeff lynn's production but that's beside the point But that song that you're so tired of being lonely, Roy Overson.

It was just stuck in my head for a while.

And, and you know i woke up with it in my head and then i went to the gym and it was playing now do with it what you want oh i'm not saying god's talking to me i tend to look at those moments as mark he was he was no i just look at that as like well i'm on the right i'm in the right groove yeah you know what i mean like it's just a an indicator like well you're a little ahead of it

Okay, I was going to transition and give you a compliment. Let's stay where we are.
We'll get back to the compliment

later. What about law of attraction, right? What about

creating your reality because the energy you're putting out there attracts and you do start to create your own reality?

Do you, I'm not, you've heard of law of attraction, so I won't have to explain. I don't know if I've heard of it, but I, you know, I understand it.
And I think that like on some level, you know,

that's got to be sort of true. You know, what is our own perception? You know, how do we process reality? You know, what do we manifest? Yeah, I don't put a lot of thought into that.
I'm kind of,

I'm impulsive

in my life and

somewhat

neurotic in my brain.

I think that probably has to be true. Has to be.
Yeah.

I'm not considered that as being the victim where everything gets done to you and it's very mysterious. No, you're not.
No, but I believe that. I think that is true.

And I think there is a language outside of something we understand in terms of how we engage as humans. And I think it's, you know, I see it with all animals.

I have been in some sort of algorithmic loop of, you know,

interspecies animal vids on Instagram, you know, just to, you know, see puppies and ducks and stuff. You're like, well, they get it.
You know what I mean? Like,

there's just part of me like, you know, these people are like, why are the killer whales attacking boats? I'm like, because they're upset with us. I mean, they're, and the way animals communicate.

So there's got to be this, we have this big brain, and there's a lot happening that we just don't acknowledge or we've shut down. Yeah.

And, you know, I believe that's true. I believe there is a frequency of communication and understanding that I don't think it's spiritual.

I just think, you know, we've limited ourselves by the context of civilization and whatever the fuck we're living in now is.

And, you know, a lot of that's gone away, but I think it's there. Yeah.
I think science and spirituality in the purest of sense for both are,

you know, right, right next to each other. Yeah, I mean, I guess they'd have to be.

Again, I don't do as much homework as I should. You I'm busy trying to figure out what I'm going to eat and what I'm going to say to Ted Danson.
Okay, let's say. Or Joan Baez came to my house yet.

And for three days, I'm like, I'm going to say to Joan Baez.

Listen, I've been in a depression thinking about talking to you because I do not stack up. So I become self-deprecating.

No. Yeah, yeah, no, no, that's me.
But let's move on to the compliment. Yeah.
You're a really good actor, and I shouldn't say that like I'm surprised, but I haven't seen that much of your work.

And you're really good. I haven't done that much.
You're really good. Well, thank you.
Genuinely.

I try.

I saw Linsfeldton

sort of trust. Yeah.
A lot of stand-ups do not pass the ball well when they're acting. Yeah.
You know, I got the ball and watched this. Yeah.
You didn't have an ounce of that. You're really good.

Well, it's a comedy, and it was kind of an oddball improvisational

comedy. But, you know,

there was beats in there.

I've had to, look, man, it's weird with acting for me because it's something I always wanted to do. And,

you know, I had a, I did four seasons of my own show on IFC. And I knew that because I'm a comic and I'd seen other comics go through this, that, you know, the first season, I was going to take a hit.

I was not going to know what to do with my hands or how to be on a set. And it was going to look stiff.
And it did. But over time, it became a little more comfortable.
And

was that all self-generated?

You said, I'm going to do this. And they said

we pitched a show based on the podcast. You know, it was like

as a comic, you kind of part of the old-timey way of thinking was you were working towards a show

based around you. I did it on IFC and it was, I thought we did a good job.
And it was a scripted show and not many people saw it. It's hard to find.

Even it's funny because people ask me, like, where can I see it? I'm like, I don't know.

I think you can get it on iTunes. You can buy it maybe.
And, you know, I'd done a little bit here and there when I was younger.

I have a very small part in Almost Famous, you know, which is at the beginning of the podcast where I play the angry promoter. But like, look, with acting,

it's taken me a while to understand

how you extract. you know, satisfaction out of the process of making film or television.
Because it's so like, it's repetitious. There's a lot of waiting.

You know, you, you, you could wait all day to be to do three lines. So, like, you know, how do you make that satisfying and not think this job is ridiculous? Like, I'm not great in a trailer.

Yeah, I'm not, you know, I can't sit there. Like, you know, no matter how many shoots I've been on,

I'm too smart to be a full-time actor. Well, yeah, but after hour three of the lighting problem, I'm like, what could be the problem? Right.

No matter how many sets I've been on, it's like, what is he doing?

Just turn the thing on. You know,

so,

and people are like, well, you should read. I'm like, I'm not reading in the trailer.

I'm sitting there on a, on a, on a, on a, a, a, a fake leather couch that they've gone out of their way to make uncomfortable, it seems.

The trailers, you know, I guess when you get to a certain level, maybe you get a nicer couch, but you can't even sleep in the fucking thing. Anyway, I'm not going to complain.
We live a

gifted life. But,

but in terms of, of, you know, I studied acting a bit in college.

And then, you know, when I was in San Francisco, there was a guy in New York I took from that was kind of a, like a secondary Methodi guy.

And I think his name was Mark Howard, who had a studio where he was like the little, you know, the little Meisner of the thing.

He'd sit there and you'd go up there and cry with a person that you did a scene with. And he'd be like, okay, let's talk.

So.

So I always wanted to do it. But I think most of my

understanding of it in recent years has come from talking to you guys.

Like once I started acting, I would just drill actors and figure out, you know, because you always want to ask them, so what is the craft? What is your process?

And none of you have an answer because you're embarrassed.

No actor is willing to go like, to be honest with you, about 70% of it's just natural. You know, I don't know why it's a gift.

I look good on camera and I listen, you know, so like if you're not doing the kind of work where you're like immersive,

like there's there's only one or two Merle streeps. There's one Merle Streep and a few other ones that can do that kind of work.

You know, if you're not that, you're getting away with something and you know it. Yeah.
Yeah. So, but you're pretty good.
No, but my joke is I

Sam Malone. That's all I've got.
Then Sam Malone became a doctor on Becker. Sam Malone, you know, became a demon.

You were great in body heath. You know, you were great in that.
And that's the first time I saw you. And that's the first time I noticed you.
And that was before Sam Malone.

Good point. And you know, you really did it, you know, because you know, you got like you know, kind of like knotted up, William Hurt, like,

yeah, and you're just dancing around doing this thing. And it was a lot of choices there.
And I've watched it recently, and it still holds up. And it was real work.
It wasn't Sam Malone.

This podcast is looking up.

No, I mean, it's a memorable character, and it's always stuck with me.

The sort of strange dancing DA

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So I'm trying to figure out this podcast thing.

Here's all I know so far. It's a privilege.

Genuinely, a privilege to sit down for an hour and talk to you. We would never talk like this at a party.
I mean,

you just can't. And it is a privilege.
I've always wanted to know what it's like to be you, to be the other person.

Well, I mean, there's something amazing about that because even like, you know, with my podcast, like it is, it is

a big part of my social life is that like I have these very focused,

you know, engaged conversations with amazing artists and people. Yeah.

And

it's very deep to me in the moment.

And my experience with it is always sort of like I just try, you know, I want to show up and be respectful, but I engage, you know, like the fact that, you know, yesterday I spent an hour and 15 minutes with Joan Baez.

And I spent so fucking unbelievable. Yeah.

And I spent three days kind of like trying to put her together in my mind in terms of how, you know, with the arc of her life and everything, there's a new doc about her.

And, you know, I'm always terrified and nervous and full of dread before any of them.

And I've done like, you know, 1,500 of these things and these conversations because like i've you know i kind of do a method trip with it you know i i had to i watched the doc uh you know i didn't necessarily resonate with her music as a younger person because i didn't you you guys grew up with it right but to me it was like it felt a little distant and a little almost perfect you know the way she sang and right but you know also what she represented is all different and i had to sort of load up so i watched this documentary which is very revealing and she's like 82 or something now and then after seeing the documentary i revisit the records i have the first couple records and I listen to, you know, I kind of put together the arc of her life that I learned in the doc with the records and how she was feeling at the time of these records.

And I kind of immerse myself in her, in Joan Baez.

And then what happens with me in the podcasting is like, it's usually the day of me talking to somebody after I've loaded up, not with questions, but with a sense of

person. That's great.
Cause when I try to think of questions, I just,

I'm not looking forward to it. I'm no longer, but when I did watch your stuff and go, oh, wait, I want to know

about that. Yeah, yeah.

And so what usually happens to me is I'm looking for a way to start.

You know, because what is the, what is the thing that, what am I going to, what's on my mind that's going to start this conversation? Yeah. Because I know all the stuff.
Yeah.

But, you know, I don't want to, you know,

you're genuinely curious about it. Yeah, or just that I think is, it's almost like, in my mind, it becomes an emotional through line, right? Right.

And that usually happens when I take a shower the day of the talk, where I'm just sort of like, what, where am I going to, what do we, where do we, where's the starting point, you know, of this?

Do you know what I mean? I know I'm in trouble when I fantasize asking you a question, then chuckle wryly. This is all in the shower about whatever it was.

And I'll find myself, you know, if Mary walks in, goes, what are you laughing at? Yeah. Oh,

nothing. An imaginary moment.

Well, yeah, but I I mean, that's an actor's process. But I was going to say about acting, I'm sorry, is that,

you know, I learned from all you guys that, you know, I'm not belittling it. I think that a lot of acting is a fairly, you know, either you're intuitive and you're natural or you're not.

And you like make-believe. You got to like make-believe.
I think so, but you also have to, yeah, see, I don't have that part of it, but, but I do think a lot of

actors are naturals in a lot of ways. And they, you know, they train and you put in a process, you get your own process.

But it's never one process. No.
You know, it's just whatever your work is, your work is. You take a little of this, you do a little of that, whatever, you know, experience, it all adds up.

But, you know, but most people, it was so funny because,

you know, like I remember,

because I remember taking these classes, you know, and

sometimes early on when I was talking to actors and I wanted to understand acting more, you know, I was maybe a little snotty, but I remember just like things I did in college or some of these acting classes.

I remember I was talking to Paul Dano, you know, and, you know, we were kind of getting into it. And, you know, he was loose and open.

And I just almost in a, I don't know if I was joking or not. I said, do you ever do animal work?

And, dude. Which we did.
Yeah, he said, I do. Yeah.
We have completely, yeah, I do do animal work. And I'm like, and I don't remember what movie it was.

So in this, in this film, was there any animal work in your process? He's like, there was.

Well, he's good. So maybe I should start bringing that back into my life.
I think it was a penguin. Yeah.
Yeah.

But, but I did need to find out why,

you know, what made acting great. You know, there,

you know, and what makes it satisfying.

And I think with this, that last film I did too, Leslie, which got a lot of attention because there was a sort of grassroots kind of momentum to get Andrea Riceborough nominated, which they did, and it caused a a little controversy.

But it brought a lot of attention to a very small movie directed by this guy, Michael Morris. He shot it in like three weeks on film here in town.
It was middle of COVID.

And it was just so funny because

I didn't want to do it. Like I read the script and it's sort of, it takes place in Texas.

The thrust of the story is about this woman who is a hopeless alcoholic who, you know, ends up in her hometown.

And this guy who I play kind of gives her the space to start to rebuild her life a little bit by giving her a job at the hotel I manage. So, this is not a guy that's me.
It's a Texan.

He's a humble guy, a little bit beaten, but you know, innately sort of

giving and somewhat codependent. And I read the script.

This is you. What are you talking about? That's

not what I'm known for.

But see, I didn't see that really. But what I saw was a director asking me to do a part that he couldn't get John Hawks to do or any other fucking cowboy.

There's nine, you know, there's 20 guys in Hollywood. I love you, said john hawks that's great right yeah so

so i'm like i said to my management who want me for who turned this down i'm like this like aggravated jew you know yeah i i'm you know i'm sensitive but like this is like there's guys that could just you know sleepwalk through this so i didn't believe that he wanted me and i was like i'm not doing it you know and i'm still pretty much in grief and covet's pretty like it's like all over the place heavy protocols and then and then like my manager's like no he wants you i'm like i i just just stop it.

I don't want to do it. And then out of nowhere, Chelsea Handler texts me, like, why don't you meet with my friend Michael Morris, who's directing that movie? I'm like, why is he got?

And you don't want to piss her off. Yeah.
So I'm like, all right, you know, I'll talk to him.

And so this guy, he's a British guy. He's directed, I think, Better Call Saul and some other ones.
He's a TV director. Nice guy.
And he gets on the phone with me. I'm like, what, what, what?

What do you need me for?

And then he says, well, I just, you know, I thought the last season of Marin, my TV show, was great. And you have something,

there's an emotional element to you that I think would really work with this. And I'm like, oh, man, he does want me.

And I'm like, oh, my God, now what do I do? So, of course, I said, well, all right. Okay.
So I believe you, but no accents.

But then the other thing I knew was that like,

like, you know, dude, if you want to do this acting thing, you're going to have to risk, you know, failing. You got, you know, you're going to have to try an accent.
You got to try an accent.

And I knew that, like, as long as it's not Boston, you might have a shot. Don't do the Boston.
Yeah. Yeah.
There's no way you can. Too hard.
Yeah.

And, and so I'm like, all right, well, I got to do this. And the only reason why I felt like I could do it is I had interviewed James Kahn, you know,

shortly before he died. And he's like a ball-busting maniac.

And he was, and at the time it was on Zoom and he was old and he didn't know where to look and he was wheezing and yelling at me, but it was great.

So, but I had watched all his old movies, like real old shit. And there's a movie called The Rain People, which was Coppola's first movie.

And he plays this kind of like, you know, mentally challenged person who was like the guy with the broom at the college that he played football at and he had an accident.

But he was doing an accent. And then I watched a couple other movies and he tried it a couple other times, but he never really do it that well.

And then I realized like, no, it doesn't fucking matter, really.

You know, just try it.

You know, the worst thing that happened is it goes in and out, but but your performance will still have emotional integrity but i'm not james con but like he did it and there was no reason that to think that he could do that so

so i i meet with this dialect coach and i always think this is a funny story but i really think you need to know the reference i can't remember name

no woman she's real good real good you know she works with rockwell and some other people yeah And I tell her, all right, I'm nervous about this. She goes, look, there's not really a Texan accent.

There's a lot of different accents. Some of them are Southern, some of them, but there's not really a one Texas accent, but I think we should do Lubbock.
And I'm like, okay, Lubbock sounds great.

And then, so she sends me some links. Yeah.
And I look at two of these links and they're just, they're not even televised interviews.

They're like, you know, the Grammys Association kind of backstage interviews with Mac Davis. Right.

And I'm like, this is the only example of Lubbock available on the internet is these Mac Davis talking videos, an old Mac Davis talking because he was from lubbock yeah

and i'm like all right and then she gives me like the the you know the the sort of dialectic you know die what do you call them the keys the pronunciations phonetic phonetics oh the phonetics of the accent so i'm like all right i'm gonna do this work fuck it you know i'm gonna do this work like i you know i know that i can listen i know that i can engage i know i can be present in a scene i can take direction so this is the work is that you know you know before each scene you know make your choices and and get you you know, and figure out how to say this shit.

And I did it. You know, I did it.
And I think it did all right. I did all right.
And I'll bet you you were, I found when I did Fargo, and I had, I'm terrible at acting. Yeah.

So I, you know, I reduce everybody down to my level. They're from Arizona.
Yeah. Coincidentally, they're from Arizona.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, right.

But I had to work so hard that I knew that every syllable of that script. Right.

And it also informed my character. Did you find out that all the work you put into the dialect was actually beneficial to how you acted? Well, yeah, because, you know, it's a different frequency.

Yeah. Like you can't just speak freely.
You know, there's a deliberate,

there's an intention to it. And because of that,

it informed the character because it slowed me down. You're fucked.
You're an actor. You're an actor.
You know, you can do podcasts all you want. You're an actor.
Thank you. I'll take it.

I remember I did one day, two days in saving Private Ryan. Yeah.

But I always thought it's kind of weird to be immersed in this astounding war movie. Yeah.
And then, and I heard some people say, oh, that's Ted Danson. Immediately, you're out of the story, you know.

You know, well, that's a, I guess that's the liability of being having baggage.

Well, being, you know, a popular character that everyone knows.

Yeah, but the other thing that I learned that

funny about actors, because I talked to Ethan Hawk, who I think can really do it when he sets his mind to it. Yeah, he's spectacular.
Yeah.

But we were talking, when I interviewed him, he was talking about training day, you know, with Denzel.

But like,

he told me, he said, I said, well, how'd you prepare for that? He's like, I watched all of Denzel's movies as if they were game tapes and he was on a football team.

Because he was like, how am I not going to get eaten alive? Yeah. By Denzel Washington was his primary concern.
How am I going to hold my own? So he just watched Denzel and got hanged.

He saw all his tricks

and figured it out. And I thought that was a smart bread.

If you don't do that and you're working with some big guy

who specially you admire, you go to church. Yeah.
And all of a sudden you're totally subservient and

like a puppy as opposed to smacking him around like you're supposed to. Does that happen to you? Yeah, a lot.

I'm a journeyman, man. I'm not,

you know, the word artist never gets dangled in front of me.

Can I go back for a second to

what was,

I mean, Joan Baez, that's astounding.

But so was President Obama.

How did that play out? You and your garage? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like, you know, with a bunch of Secret Service.
Sure.

It was like a story I told a lot, but it was like, you know, it was a different interview because, you know, I had to create questions. We had a tight hour.
I didn't want to get into politics.

I wanted to do a personal interview and we had to address some stuff.

The entire event was of its own. You know, a lot of preparation had to go into it.
You know, there were Secret Service that had to come a couple of weeks before.

They had to figure out what the perimeter was for protection. I had to ask my neighbor if we could put snipers on his roof and all that stuff.
I know.

It was a little. I remember I said to him, Are you nervous?

And he said, if I was nervous about this, we'd all be in trouble.

You know,

and then like I tried to, I had this idea about the presidency that was cynical.

And the presidency or the general,

you know, it is a civil servant job.

And in my mind, you know, in terms of, you know, how, you know, lobbying works and how politics works, I'd always, you know, thought of the presidency as the highest level of middle management. Right.

You know,

and you said this through. I kind of did.
Yeah. And it didn't, I don't think it quite landed.
Really?

Didn't see the humor. No.

But yeah, that was an exciting interview. There's very few interviews that were not surprising to me, really.
If you had to give up,

do you consider music?

Part of your this is what I do in life. I do music as well.
Or is that a business? I do a little bit. Well, no, I've always played, but in the last few years, I've I've sort of stepped out and

played with people publicly and sang publicly.

But it's still really a hobby and it was always sort of a dream but it was not a dream i would pursue because it's a it's a tough one if you had to give up if you had to give up podcasts yeah

no problem no problem yeah really i think i don't know it's so much part of my social life yeah no it's not it's not that it's no problem but i mean like you know i

you know i'm a comedian and i'm and and i you know and i and i enjoy doing you know i'm starting to enjoy things you know i don't know how that happened and i like i love doing the podcast and i and again it's always surprising to me.

It

never feels like a job, really.

And again, it is a big part of my social life. And

we've held our audience for a long time. And we're still kind of looked at as

an important podcast and one that people like listening to. And I think I do a thing a way that people don't,

that I'm kind of singular in some ways. in the style.
And I love it. But I think that, you know,

if it ever started to,

like, you get to a point where for years we were not repeating guests and, you know, after 1500 people, but oddly, the writer's strike and the actor strike, you know, kind of brought in different types of people.

Yeah, I mean, I interviewed Naomi Klein, who's a genius, the writer, the leftist writer, and Jeff Charlotte. And, you know, I had Larry Charles in there.

And, you know, like, I'm still engaged with it. But I think that, you know, as we get older, I still believe somehow that, you know,

stopping is possible.

Sometimes I look at people your age or older, and I'm like, what are you doing?

Take it easy, will you? But I think that's probably naive. I think that's going to be there.
Yeah, if you're a worker,

you're going to want to work. A couple of things.
Mary sends her regards

and said that

it was her favorite interview she's ever done. Oh, that's nice.
Yeah, I love that. I also happened to have interviewed her a few days ago, so that sucks to hear.

But, and one more thing.

You are so kind to come on this podcast. You are a very wise, kind, sweet soul.
Thanks. I hope that doesn't suck to hear.
No. But I really admire you, and I'm really grateful that you came.

Absolutely. I mean, you're Ted Danson.
Yeah, but that does

great when I'm looking in the mirror. I really enjoy being Ted Dans.
but other than that, there's not much. That was my pleasure.
Thanks, man. Thanks for

appreciate it. Who has to pee the most? You or me, right? You probably.
Yeah.

Thank you so much to Mark Maron. It was an honor to have you on the show.
Thank you. Check out his hit.
podcast, WTF, with Mark Maron and his HBO special, From Bleak to Dark.

That's all for this episode. Special thanks to our friends at Team Cocoa.
Just a reminder, you can always watch the full-length videos of these episodes by visiting youtube.com/slash teamcoco.

As always, subscribe on your favorite podcast app and give us a great rating and review on Apple Podcasts.

Why not?

See you next time, where everybody knows your name.

You've been listening to Where Everybody Knows Your Name with Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson sometimes.

The show is produced by me, Nick Leow. Executive producers are Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and myself.
Sarah Fedorovich is our supervising producer. Our senior producer is Matt Apadaka.

Engineering and Mixing by Duana Samuel with support from Eduardo Perez. Research by Alyssa Grawl.
Talent Booking by Paula Davis and Gina Batista.

Our theme music is by Woody Harrelson, Anthony Gen, Mary Steenbergen, and John Osborne. We'll have more for you next time where everybody knows your name.

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