Sir Keir Starmer: Lessons Of VE Day

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Aktung Aktung, welcome to We Have Ways of Making You Talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland, the Second World War podcast with all your Second World War podcasting needs catered to.

Now, Jim, people can probably tell from the ambience on the microphone that we're not in our normal recording setup.

No, we're certainly not.

We're in something rather special, aren't we?

In fact, we're about to take part in a bilateral conference.

In the room where they do bilateral conferences

at number 10 Downing Street.

It's been one of those days, it's just been quite surreal for quite a length of it.

And so, how better to round that off than by asking the Prime Minister a few questions?

Yes, Sakir Starmer.

And this might not be his first ever podcast as Prime Minister, but it is the first history podcast he's done.

Yeah.

And, you know, here we are.

It's the week of VE Day 80.

Eat that, all the other history podcasts.

Yeah,

bro.

So one of the things we've done since we came in this room, and

the cabinet room is beneath us in the building here.

Yes.

You look out that window, that's the Rose Garden where...

The famous conversation happened.

The conversation that no one knows the content of, except that once Churchill came back into number 10 he'd got what he wanted out of Halifax.

He wasn't going to resign, he wasn't going to bring down the government, we were going to fight on and win the war.

I know but and that is one of the things.

That is actually basically it.

The all-time decisive moments of Second World War history happened out of that window.

Out of that window and there it is and it's funny isn't it because you see how it fits onto Horse Gar's parade.

Yep.

There's the hedge.

Yep.

And the other thing about number 10 is it's so much bigger.

Yes, it's a bit TARDISY.

It's very TARDISy.

You go in through that.

I mean, I'm very interesting artwork on the walls.

And the thing is, there's someone from the number 10 staff in the background here, and she's smiling because she's heard this conversation a squillion times as people have come in here and gone.

It's much bigger on the inside, isn't it?

I can't believe it.

Where does it end?

What is really amazing is being about in a room where...

Great men have been.

Great men, great women, historic figures have met, and where some of the most important decisions in global history have been made.

And now, of course, you've got the most important conversation in podcasting history.

It is the Prime Minister of Great Britain in Northern Ireland, Sir Kirstarma.

Hello.

Hello.

Hi.

And you, and you, thank you.

Hi, how are you?

Very well, thanks.

Am I here?

Yes, that was fun, wasn't it?

Yeah, it was great.

Delicious Victoria Sponge.

Thank you.

I've baked all morning.

Very good sausage rolls.

It's really good.

But I thought it was just really nice to sort of get everybody there.

You could see the enjoyment people were getting from it.

Yeah, it's great.

DJ Darlings are fantastic, too.

Oh, they're brilliant.

They're really brilliant.

But, Prime Minister, I wanted to ask you, I mean, you've been in the job for 10 months, and obviously, you are having a feeling for the pressures of being a Prime Minister.

What do you think it must have been like to be a wartime Prime Minister?

Oh, incredibly pressured.

A huge sense of responsibility.

You can sense that by reading about it, watching films, you know, and by walking around here.

If you haven't done it yet, come and have a look at the cabinet room in a minute before you go, genuinely.

Because

the sense that in that room decisions were being made about

the war, about the country, the

sense of responsibility, you know, the first duty of Prime Minister is to keep the country safe, to keep people safe.

I mean, it is the most important duty.

I think by being here in the same space, sitting in the same chairs, around the same table, you get a real sense of what that must have been like.

Obviously, very different different to the position we're in now.

I'll just say two other additional things.

Firstly, I spend quite a lot of time with President Zelensky, and therefore I see firsthand what he is doing in his leadership in Ukraine over the last three plus years,

which is really incredible.

He's impressive.

He's really impressive.

And never ever forget he was offered safe passage out of the country in the first week of the conflict.

And he was a comedian.

I mean, that's the other thing.

He said, I don't need a ride, I need ammunition.

And I'm not sure that he thought he was walking into that.

But the final thing on that, I'd just say, is in the work we're doing with Ukraine, in the work we're doing on defence and security in Europe, and saying we've got to do more on defence spend, higher sustained increase since the Cold War, corralling allies to do the same and to come together.

I feel a personal responsibility for the fact that we've enjoyed 80 years of peace by and large, and today's a sort of celebration and remember.

But my duty is the same duty as all prime ministers to keep the country safe, and therefore it's my duty to make sure that we have that peace for decades to come.

That's why we're doing the work to hold back.

But can I just say that is unbelievably cheering to hear that?

Because

I feel that very, very strongly.

Yeah, it is really so important.

So, NATO has been the cornerstone of

that peace for 80 years, the sort of greatest alliance the world has ever seen in many respects.

I'm absolutely determined to play my part to make sure it's not just something we look back on with pride, it's something that actually delivers for decades to come.

And so, behind the we must support Ukraine, which we must because the right thing to do, is also a sense that we must hold the alliance together

for all of our generations.

And today sort of brings that into quite sharp relief because you get a sense

from the events of today of what it must have been like,

but also

a real sense of that responsibility to make sure that for generations to come, that's why it was good to have young people out there as well,

who are going to get that message across, get that message out there in terms of what's going on.

So,

it's been quite an amazing day in many respects.

Just it always is.

I mean, you must have had this talking to veterans.

Every story is a different story.

They come alive for me in different ways every time I hear them.

Just two examples of that.

My son is now 16.

When I now meet a veteran who was 17 when they ran up the beaches in Normandy,

it's taken on a whole.

I've been on those beaches a number of times, including before we had children.

And it's quite incredible to think how on earth would anybody have run up here in going into

gunfire.

To think of my own boy, I mean, he's 16, so in a year's time or two years' time, because many of them are about that age, is quite something

and then hearing today

this was at the Buckingham Palace

event we did there was a woman there and she said I was outside these gates on VE Day chanting we want the king we want the king and they said they were doing the Congo and chanting we want the king and to hear her describe what she was doing then was really really

he was a great man Georgia Six

really incredible incredible.

And then there was also one of the veterans I met today.

That's why every story is different.

He's now just turned about, I think, 101.

He was with his daughter, and his daughter said that until six years ago, he'd never told them that he was at Normandy.

He said,

he'd been in the war.

They didn't really know what he did.

And then six years ago, he said, I want to go back to France.

I want to go and see my mates, meaning the people who didn't come back with him.

For her, that opened her eyes.

She had no idea.

Wow, how amazing.

My own grandfather fought in the army in the Second World War.

Oh, did he?

Did he?

No, I have no idea.

He was just contacting the MOD.

He was just like,

he was just

down.

I mean, it's just like the different ways people...

So some of the veterans go back every year or every time they can.

Some won't go back.

These are incredible personal vignettes and stories of how people are.

It's really incredible.

I mean,

a day like today, VA Day, is really important to remember, though, isn't it?

To highlight these stories, to highlight what the country went through, isn't it?

We can't stop doing this even though the war generation are fading away, right?

I think we need to do it even more because the lived experience is reducing all of the time

for obvious reasons.

So we need to do it whilst we've got veterans with us to tell their personal stories.

And there's no substitute.

You can't read a briefing and have the same impact to somebody telling you their story about what they did.

I mean, where's the legacy go after they're going to be?

We need to record.

I mean, we are recording their stories, but we also then need to,

in a sense, even more have the celebration and the reminders because

there is

a hugely important part of our history of which we should be extremely proud as a country.

It was a moment of peril for us and the world,

where the values of freedom and democracy prevailed.

I've got children who live in peace and in a democracy as a result of other people.

Which is incredible.

And then,

you know, the reminder with the Ukrainian contingent on the procession, that the idea that

this was all just history and it doesn't matter now somehow, is completely wrong.

Those values of freedom and democracy matter today.

That's exactly what is being thought about in Ukraine.

And then it was brilliant, just the spontaneous.

I don't know whether you saw as they came up past the

king and the queen.

I thought they were fantastic.

It was brilliant.

They were absolutely brilliant.

But what a reminder that this is not just a sort of part of our history, it's part of our now.

And nothing must be taken for granted.

So that's why I do think it's important that we continue to celebrate, to remember, to have events like this.

Well, I've got to say, you're absolutely preaching to the converted here.

I mean, this is very on message with us.

Yeah, but that's why it's really good you're capturing it as well and you've got some of the stuff outside, I hope.

Yeah.

But also the sheer joy of, I mean, it is uplifting, you know, people coming together, coming to London.

People coming together

and sharing this commemoration is really important.

You're roughly of the same generation as me, I think.

Did you grow up on Second World War films?

And if so, which is your favourite?

Well,

I mean, Saving Private Ryan is always a favourite, I think, of me and many people.

Yes, we did.

I mean, we didn't watch a lot of television when I was growing up.

That was just one of the things my parents didn't particularly approve of us watching television all the time.

They were worried that it would ruin our lives.

We'd never achieve anything because we're watching too much television.

So we didn't actually watch a lot of television.

But you do, the movies do bring it to life in quite a powerful way, I think.

But it's quite interesting watching our son learn history and learn about the Second World War for the first time.

Because for us, it's sort of, I know it's hard-wired in a sense, we know the history,

we all remember it.

But to see a teenager learn for the first, you know, to actually go through it for the first time and begin to study and understand it, it's quite interesting

and quite inspiring in its own way.

Well, it's so compelling because of the richness of the human drama as much as anything else.

But one thing I just wanted to ask you is that, obviously, you know, the United States in the late 1930s was merging out of the Great Depression and became the richest nation in the world through becoming the arsenal of democracy.

In other words, by industrializing, it was able to kind of get rich on it as well.

Do you think there's a case for rearming to boost economic growth?

Not just to boost economic growth, but the two

go-to.

No, I think it's a really important question.

So I'm absolutely convinced that we have to increase our

spend on security and defence.

And I don't just mean

more money as a percentage, although I do mean that, that's at the bedrock of it.

We need to learn the lessons of the Ukraine conflict.

I was very struck last time I went there just a few weeks ago with how the fighting has changed.

The use of drones has massively increased the sophistication of them.

And yet, people are still in trenches.

So, yeah, and so there's a real mixture of sort of old and new, if you like, there.

But

we have to up defence spend, we have to coordinate and cooperate better across Europe, in my view.

We have to share more of the burden collectively as Europeans.

But in direct answer to your question, what comes with that,

which is obviously national security, defence

but also economic security because these are good, well-paid jobs in defence that come with this.

And

they are in the big defence-heavy sectors, but then for all of that, you've got supply chains.

We had small and medium-sized businesses in here as part of the hub initiative that we've got.

That some of the defence spend will go to the smaller companies that are providing the parts in

the

war and they did in the United States and the war.

And the other thing that really struck me then, and also when I go to barrow and places, is people who are highly skilled,

good jobs, secure jobs, but they've got a little badge of pride

inside because as I say to them,

you know, I get to thank those those

who are serving, who are literally on the front line.

But if you in Barrel or wherever weren't doing what you did, then they wouldn't have the best capability to go with it.

And I think, therefore, the defence sector's got that additional sort of bit of

pride in it, if you like, which is really important.

Well, national pride and a sense of nationhood are really, really important, aren't they?

I mean, one of the things that's interesting, you know, when one looks back to 1938 and the Munich crisis, one of the problems that Chamberlain faced was that 92% of the country were against going to war, and in a democracy, that makes life very difficult.

If you sort of think, well, maybe we should be.

I mean,

how does one go about mobilizing the nation for a kind of sort of a shift in emphasis in terms of what we need to be doing for defense?

I think a number of things

have to come together.

The nation has to feel that there's a sense of insecurity.

I do feel that most people think that now.

I've been quite,

you know, going around the country.

You say to people, we're we're living in a more unstable world at the moment than we were.

There's a lot of agreement with that sentiment.

I was really struck with the Churchill reading that we had at

the beginning of the presentation.

So with Timothy Spool.

The words to capture

the nation's thinking and spirit were really incredible from Churchill, as they always were and always are in a way.

So all that has to come together.

I do think there is a, I don't, when we say we're going into a new era for defence and security, which we are at the moment, I think most people do appreciate that, do know that

it matters that we're able to defend our values, defend our freedoms, and play our part.

I think that by bringing together sort of what we're calling the coalition of the willing in Europe,

particularly with the work that I've been able to do with Emmanuel Macron, there is a sense across the country that people

want their country,

they want to be proud of the country, they want to know that

at a moment of need we are able to and do step up as a country, which we do and have done historically.

And we're,

you know, I hope showing again that in the current circumstances with the conflict in Ukraine, I mean, the coalition

will do that.

The coalition of willing is

exactly what we want to be hearing because if you think about D-Day, D-Day is a kind of apogee of coalition warfare, of coordination, of cooperation, of a singleness of purpose, of coming together with different nations who've got different needs, different requirements, different end goals.

But the main goal, get rid of Nazi Germany, get rid of Imperial Japan-you know, absolute singleness of purpose.

Yeah, I think that's right.

And one of the things of the Coalition of the Winning was this sense that we've established this year, I think, for the first time in a while, which is if you're really going to make a difference, you have to go at the speed of those that want to go furthest.

When you've got a group of or a coalition of any sort,

the temptation is always to go at the speed of the

country that wants to move most slowly or is more cautious for different reasons.

I think what we've done with the coalition of the willing is to break through that and say, no, if we go at the pace of the sort of most reluctant or most cautious member, then we're going to be going very slowly and not very far.

Therefore, we need to break the dynamic of that.

Yeah, and I mean, D-Day is quite incredible.

I mean, well, the other thing, I mean, you think about Churchill and the Mulberry harbours, these two giant harbours, both bigger than the size of Dover, you know, created all around the country from different manufacturing firms, building firms, then floated across the channel and put in place.

And halfway through, they realised that they just thought, we can't do this, we can't do this.

And Churchill just said, don't argue the matter, the problems will answer for themselves.

Yeah, it's just incredible.

I think sometimes when you look, I mean, D-Day is a really big example of that.

How on earth did that happen?

I mean, it's quite incredible.

And an era before email and spreadsheets and

just the organisation, the coming together, the different roles that people played,

you know,

it really is.

And the sheer difficulty of the task.

Landing and running up the beach, sustaining it

was really quite incredible.

Well, Prime Minister, thanks so much for giving us some of your time.

Not at all.

Thank you for coming in.

Thank you for being part of it.

Again, the sausage rolls are very high quality.

You can basically lure me into any situation because

thank you.

Not at all.

And it's great to hear what you're saying about unity of purpose and

coalition of the winning.

Thank you very much for that.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Nice to see you.

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That was twice as long as we thought we were going to get with the PM there.

We were offered eight minutes, and that's more than a quarter of an hour.

Mainly, Jim, because you were like a dog with a bone then.

Okay, I wasn't going to be.

I was going to just give you a benefit, Jim.

No, I wasn't.

I absolutely wasn't.

And then suddenly, you started talking about the need for defense and you know the most important thing of a prime minister's duty is to defend the nation I was like yes absolutely I thought it was very interesting though

and

he came in with the thing he was going to say and then we actually ended up having a conversation with him which is the thing you don't very often see with politicians where they come with a thing they're going to say they're going to say it and if you ask them again they're going to say it again and actually we you know it was it was really really

that was interesting i mean i think he said all the right things yeah i mean i think at the start when he said that cabinet room is where those decisions were made, you know, that he can relate to the, not to that exact feeling, but that you're in these places where these things happen, which is, after all, we were talking about while we were waiting.

You're looking out the road.

He's out of the window going, that was where

behind us is that, that guy.

And I think that was very interesting.

I mean, again,

what I was getting from it, or what I would want to draw from it, is that reminds you that Winston Churchill, for instance, is just

a human being is just a person sat in that chair over there the same way Sakir Starmer was a minute ago that actually it's people doing this there it Churchill for all the mythology around him is is a politician being a politician dealing with the dealing with a you know a series of impossible situations piling up on him but he's a he's flesh and blood just like you and me and that's the sense I really I really got there and and and of course there's the simple fact we you know we're very fortunate to get access that you know this here's an open society for you right we do our podcast podcast where we wang on to one another about the Second World War in a spirit of enthusiasm and hopefully

expertise.

And we've actually been able to ask someone who sits in that cabinet office, in the cabinet room downstairs,

who makes those kind of decisions.

Today has been a very interesting day because I thought a lot of the ceremony today was very good at like keying it to the people.

who did the things that happened 80 years ago.

These aren't mythic events.

They aren't, it's not large than life people.

It's people doing it.

And they're facing the challenges the way that people always have.

That's what I quite like about whenever the questions, the answers to the questions we were getting or the questions we were asking, it reminded me that, you know,

a politician 80 years ago is a politician now.

I agree with that, but also he was saying all the things that I wanted to hear.

Yeah, I know.

Which I, yeah, but

he was saying them with a fairly heavy degree of conviction, I would say.

You know, we were saying, I mean, he could have easily said, well, once they're, you know, you can see the Second World World War, interest of the Second World War fading once the veterans go.

You can know, you didn't want to double down.

I thought that was war.

That was really, really interesting.

And that was really, really interesting because it is a, I mean, we've talked about it a fair bit on the podcast.

It is a thorny problem approaching.

And people often ask, as the veterans all go, as we lose the direct

present memory of those people, where's it all headed?

It's literally all the stuff we've been saying for the last few months.

Do you think he reads your substit?

No.

No.

Do you think someone reads your substrate for him?

No.

No.

Again, I'm getting...

The thing I really, really, really, really, in the last few years, have wanted to try and get my head into is the sense that the Second World War, when it was happening, was now.

It wasn't this sacred event 80 years ago.

No.

None of the protagonists making these momentous decisions had any idea what was around the corner.

Often had no idea what their opposite numbers were planning.

They didn't know whether it was going to be over by Christmas.

No.

You know, my fear at D-Day last year was everyone would be sort of going on a sort of a mawkishness trip with the veterans because they're so few.

And I thought, you know, my worry is there's going to be that again this year.

And I think, and it didn't happen.

It never felt mawkish at all.

And the point is that

global events are such at the moment that actually the lessons from the Second World War are there.

If you get it wrong and you end up at war, that is the cost.

And any future war could be even worse.

So

those are the stakes.

So you can't faff about.

If you want to be strong and secure and peaceful and preserve democracy, you've got to fight for it.

You've got to be, you know, the nation, the people, have to be prepared to give up a few things to make that happen.

Yes, but you also need to figure out what the nation is, don't you?

You need a common story

and you need a common sense of purpose.

And

those are tricky questions, aren't they?

Especially as we, an event like today, is an opportunity to talk about that, talk about that, what that is.

But we are talking about that, and that's what I think is really good.

It's not swooning violins, it's not slow-motion standards fluttering in the breeze

and Rivalli being played or whatever.

It's the depth guardsman coming up and saying permission to start the parade.

Yeah, no, it was absolutely right.

And he said, whatever, it was a Ukerion or whatever.

And that,

then you're immediately

now touching there now, the two presents coming together and meeting in a way that isn't saccharin and that isn't packaged and that it is just a simple gesture and between soldiers, between

which is after old soldier, new soldier.

Yeah,

you know,

is as ancient as many years.

Yeah, so there was a lovely line by Paddy O'Connell, who I was doing doing

telecommentary with, and he said, you know, he was once one of millions and now he's one in a million.

Yeah.

just yeah and i think

connecting

it's important you know for the for for the national for our you know our national sense, I suppose, to think about things like this.

But certainly, when you're looking at the history, it's really important to think about they don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.

It's essential to think of it like that because so often, and we talked about this a lot with Victory 45 with the book, when you're actually looking at how people are making decisions, the tumult of events come at them, and the information they don't have is much more, often much more important.

It's the second guessing that's going on.

Exactly.

The information you don't have is usually much more important than the information you do have.

You know, you clasp at the straw of the thing you know,

grasp at the straw of the thing you know, rather than take into account the things you don't know.

And that's what's going on at the end of the war as much as anything else.

That's the thing I find so thrilling about studying history, and particularly the Second World War, is this

torrent of contingency coming at you the entire time, which is what life is like.

Real life isn't like history books.

History books should be like real life.

It should be that way around.

Well, I mean, it's interesting.

We didn't...

America never came up.

We talked about Zelensky and how impressive Zelensky was.

I was trying to push him a little bit off.

Yeah, but

he didn't go for it.

He didn't bite on me saying, actually, Zelensky is a comedian.

And after all, so if the nation is in true crisis, maybe Kier should be sat over here and I should be sat over there.

So

if the stuff really...

If the stuff hits the ventilation system, Jim, you can do a podcast with Kier Starner and I'll take her over his preemption.

We need a comedian in charge.

I just wear combat for you.

But I think one of the things...

It doesn't mean you could wear olive drapers.

But I think one of the things really interesting about Zelensky is because he's a guy who understands, he's a comedian, he's a TV star, he understands how media works, and that's quite clearly a big part of how well he's doing.

And his favourite war movie, same prime rhyme, wasn't it?

Well, he obviously didn't grow up watching war movies.

No, he did.

No.

Absolutely not.

I felt quite generationally let down by that moment, to be honest.

Yeah, I mean, imagine coming to your first war movie.

I mean, by the way, the spad who has to listen to this podcast, you need to pass on that next time we ask about a favourite war movie, the Prime Minister

comes up with the Great Escape, at least.

I mean, honestly.

But, you know, he'd have been in his 30s when that came out and that's his

own movie.

There are families that don't watch television, aren't there?

Well there were.

There were, yeah.

Interesting.

He says we didn't really watch Telly.

Did you ever watch Telly's Heroes?

We never really watched TV because it would distract us and we'd never come to anything.

Well it worked out didn't it?

Yeah.

It's like Truman's lack of ambition.

Truman didn't want to be vice president.

And it worked.

Ends up being president.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I thought it was fascinating.

I thought it was really interesting.

And I've got to say, from my perspective, he was saying all the things I wanted to hear.

You know, whether you can deliver that is a double matter.

Yeah, but many slip twixt cup and lip and all that.

I mean,

however, to be here on VE Day, with the bands playing, the bands rehearsing in horse guards are.

We're in number 10.

I know, we're in number 10.

Can you believe it?

They'll let anyone in these days.

Honestly.

You know, that's the garden.

The Halifax-Churchill conversation, and no one ever knows what happened.

Yes.

What a day.

What an interesting day.

I mean, I still,

what I've tried not to do is I've tried to be not over excited by this because it is very exciting.

I've tried to sort of try and keep my powder dry and retain my scepticism and all that.

But it's hard not to be,

to feel very privileged to have got in here.

It's hard not to feel, you know,

he didn't need to do that, did he?

He didn't need to do that.

He's got more important things to worry about than you and me and what we think about rearmament or whatever.

So I think, you know.

Well, yeah.

Yeah, I guess.

you should be listening to us personally.

But anyway, it's very good of all the team here at number 10 to let us in.

Thanks everybody for listening to We Have Ways of Making You Talk.

And not just to this one, for listening to a podcast that has attracted the attention of

the British government.

I mean, obviously, the lads at the FSP listening to this now, we hope you enjoy it too.

Yeah, because the only thing we haven't mentioned is Russia.

It's me, though.

Anyway, thanks everybody for listening.

We'll see you you again soon.

Cheerio.

Cheerio.

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