VE Day: Victory In Europe (Part 8)

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Daily Express from Moorhead, Montgomery Field Headquarters, May 4th.

Take one.

Stop.

Here on a wild stretch of heath, just south of Luneburg, precisely 6:25 p.m.

today, Montgomery signed peace with Germany.

Stop.

Five German officers walked into the tent and stood behind their chairs at a table over which a grey army blanket had been thrown.

Stop.

Presently, Montgomery arrived, and as he took his place at the end of the table, the five Germans saluted, and in silence, they sat down together.

Stop.

Montgomery took out his spectacles and, in a slow, careful voice, dash, his voice is never strong at any time, undash, read out the following terms of surrender.

Stop.

Love it.

And that was a telegram to the Daily Express by Alan Moorhead, a Tyro reporter who followed Monty all the way through the Second World War, basically, didn't he?

From desert all the way to the end.

Can I say that if the Daily Express was how it was in the Second World War, I'd be reading it every day now.

It was absolutely brilliant in the 40s.

It was broadsheet for starters.

And it's just full of brilliant, brilliant writing.

Well, there we go.

If the Express wants to recover that one lost reader, they know what to do.

Anyway,

we are now, we've left Berlin.

We've left Berlin.

Welcome to episode 8.

Yes.

Welcome to We Have Ways to Make You Talk.

Of Victory 45 series?

Episode 8.

And we're going to put pen to paper possibly in this episode.

Who knows?

Let's see.

Steady on.

So we are now at Monty's Tack HQ, which is in the grounds of a villa in Hacklingen in Lower Saxony, which is about 55k south-southeast of Hamburg.

So what's that, about 30 miles?

Yeah, and the tents and caravans of Monty's entourage, they're basically, everyone knows the war's about to end.

They're bursting with that feeling.

His TAC HQ has moved onto the Lüneburg Heath on the 1st of May, and it's taken its position on the top of a hill called the Timmelleberg.

And the reason they've moved there is so that the number 10 set radio works properly onto the high ground.

And also, it's great big views of Germany.

And Monty can stand on the top of the hill and look at the country he's conquered.

The way the TAC HQ is run is the aide-de-camp Johnny Henderson would try to make sure that the tents are laid out in the same formation as at El Alamein.

Because the idea is Monty wants things just so wherever the TAC HQ, it sets up in the same formation.

Yep.

Because Monty wants things just so that he can, you know, routine matters so he can think it is early night and all that stuff that's built around his personal style.

That's nothing wrong with routine.

Nothing wrong with that.

Now, of course, his campaign is not ending with the bang he'd hoped for because he wants to go to Berlin.

Ike's told him no.

Monty's really unhappy about this, but basically sort of swallows it as a thing.

He argues with everyone, he argues with everyone else about it after the event

because he's thinking in terms of the British Empire being in on the kill, basically, and he regards what they're doing as not that.

And I think he's probably reading the fact that the Germans are surrendering en masse to Western soldiers more easily, isn't he?

He's thinking, you know, this is a golden opportunity, but we won't take it.

Anyway, the TAC HQ is seven caravans which have been accumulated along the way from Italian generals, German generals, whatever.

And Monty has his own.

There's one for the king

or Churchill, whoever visits.

And there's a sergeant's mess and two officers' mess.

And Monty eats in the A-mess.

Yes.

But it's got a sort of area of conviviality and kind of sort of brotherhood about it, which you get from a collection of camps, don't you?

A collection of tents and caravans.

Yes, and it's got its culture and its vibe and all this sort of thing.

And its rhythms.

Yeah, and the people who Monty likes to work with really like working with Monty.

The general impression, actually, when you, you know, I mean, so much ink has been spilt about what a gitty is, but actually, he's pretty good to work for if he trusts you.

Yeah.

He's a tremendous fellow and he's got a terrific sense of humour and a terrific sense of fun, actually.

And, you know, there's a serious business of war, but he's all for kind of, you know, he's actually that pastoral care that Monty's machine provides.

It's actually pretty good for the chosen few that have warranted it.

That's quite right.

And we'll get into the people around him in a minute.

So by this point, units in the British van have rendezvoused with the Soviets.

So British 6th Airborne Division, who we last looked at having the absolutely diabolical glider landings at Vesel, Hammenkeln, you know, with half their jeeps destroyed.

And I think it's 20% of the gliders undamaged in the landing.

That's right, yeah.

Absolutely insane numbers.

And then our Wismar, aren't they?

Which is where the title was before he goes to Flensberg.

Moments ago, on the Baltic coast.

So they're on the heels of the Nazi high command.

And from Monty's point of view, this is good news because the epicenter epicenter of the new organization of the Third Reich's command is in his sphere.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And so their job, six airborne are sent forward to keep the Soviets out of Denmark.

Yep.

The new Cold War.

This is important Cold War stuff, actually.

So they've advanced 400 miles from Wiesel, 6th Airborne.

They've gone through Osnabrück, Minden, Wundstorf, Seller, Oiltsen, and now on through Lüneburg.

And they've been really in the last couple of weeks dealing with Germans who want to surrender to them rather rather than the Soviets.

But when C Company, the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion, do encounter the men of 3rd Soviet tank corps.

These are men from Rokosovsky's 2nd Belarusian, by the way.

That's right.

Their war diary says that they meet an officer in a Jeep.

Yes.

And the war diary says, yeah, who'd come far in advance of his own columns and was quite put out to find us sitting on what was the Russians' ultimate objective.

So the Russians are racing for Vismar too.

Then B Company, they make their first contact with numbers of troops to the north of Vismar with Lieutenant PG Insel doing the handshaking and vodka drinking on behalf of the battalion.

I think Insul has quite a good time.

And basically, a standoff starts to develop.

And Major General Eric Bowles is the sixth airborne commander.

Yeah, he takes over from Windy Gale.

Yeah, he's taken over from Gale and has run Vasti from the sixth airborne side.

He says to his Soviet opposite numbers, I've got anti-tank guns and artillery batteries standing by.

I will have no qualms in using them on the Soviets if they go over their limits.

Well, my enemy's enemy is my friend until we don't have an enemy.

Yeah.

But what's interesting, though, is that the officers, the people at the top, are having those conversations, while the men lower down the chain are basically getting pissed and shaking hands.

And in our new book, Victory 45, there is a great picture of...

We don't do a hard sell on this podcast.

We don't do a hard sell on this podcast, but there's a picture worth looking at, which is where you do have Paras, six airborne people, meeting Soviet troops with their T-34.

And the Soviets look a little bit cagey.

The Soviet troops look a little bit cagey.

And the British troops, or the Allied troops, have delighted to see their Soviet opposite numbers.

And you have to remember that, you know, Stalin's been built up into a big figure.

On the left in British politics,

finally, we're aligned with the Soviets and all this sort of stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

So they're pleased to see them.

Whereas the Soviets are like, oh, God, what next?

Paradise?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Heaven help us.

So, I mean, the whole of this front is just completely collapsing all around.

So the 5th Battalion of the King's Own Scottish Borderers, the KOSB, they've been fighting in Bremen.

As have the Sherwood Rangers, incidentally.

They know that the end's near.

So on the 28th of April, the whole battalion has the time and opportunity to bathe and a divisional entertainment center set up in the cathedral.

Fighting in the city itself that day before has been pretty light.

They've captured oil refineries and docks and innumerable policemen, German policemen, 200 enemy troops, a Junkers aircraft factory, one Finnish destroyer and two incomplete submarines.

And these are exactly the kind of assets that Hitler had wanted destroyed as Germany fell.

This is a Nero decree.

And now, of course, they're in Allied hands.

And outside Hamburg, on the the 27th of April, the 1st Battalion of the 1st Royal Tank Regiment, the 1st RTR,

has lost its last tank of the war on April the 27th, just outside Hamburg.

And it's probably the last ever in 7th Armoured Division.

Although, no, maybe not, because maybe they lost one in the Gulf or something.

But anyway, the tank in C Squadron has been bazooked, attacked with a panzerfaus, but no casualties, thank goodness.

Sherwood Rangers lose their last man on the 2nd of May.

And they're in that area.

They've now moved from Bremen to that kind of hinterland between Bremen and which again is yet more kind of heathland.

They've been rounding up Volksdurm.

Yes, that's right.

He went in his 60s and the War Diary record, they call him an optimist in the War Diary because he's carrying a condom.

You've got to love the Tommy email.

But basically, there's still a little bit more fighting.

They're sort of patrolling aggressively.

They're taking prisoners.

But on the 1st of May, at 1945 as...

7.45 p.m.

in the evening.

Yeah, that's right.

The first battalion at RTR diary records a black staff car containing a representative of the Hamburg garrison appearing flying under white flag.

And he's taken under blindfold to Divisional HQ.

And the following morning, and this is interesting, orders are given not to shoot at the enemy, right?

And the battalion is completely buzzing with a rumor about Hamburg's imminent surrender.

And at midday, the CO, Lieutenant Colonel O.R.C.

Hobart, attends a conference about the planned occupation for the city.

So they're not going to have to fight for Hamburg, which is I think everyone is obviously hugely relieved.

Very relieved about.

And then at 1700 hours, the diary notes: staff cars with negotiators for the surrender of Hamburg came through the lines to Divisional HQ.

Later, it was also discovered that these saw the commander 21st Army Group concerning the surrender of the forces opposing the 21st Army Group.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's starting to be mooted, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah.

But there's still a bit of MITI fighting around.

That's right.

And the thing is, and we've said this in all these episodes so far: why, you know, dying at this point, the futility, the sheer pointlessness of all of it is awful and random and omnipresent, even for the people at Monty's TAC HQ.

That's what's, I think, remarkable about this phase of the war.

So we should talk a little bit about the LOs, these liaison officers, these ADCs that are operating.

Well, no, they're liaison officers, not ADCs, aren't they?

No one above a captain, is that right?

Yeah, there's a couple of majors, but really, depending on sort of longevity, but basically, they're captains.

Well, this is unique to Monty, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's a thing that after the bulge, the Americans go, we should have that.

Why haven't we got that?

We really love the way he does that thing.

Someone Someone will turn up and say, I've come from the field marshal, I'm here to help, sort of thing, or tell me what's going on.

And Monty's doing this so he could, there is sort of backup nervous system.

There are his eyes and ears, aren't they?

They're young men so that they can beetle about.

They've got all the energy of youth, all that kind of stuff.

And they're people in for the duration.

They tend not to be professional soldiers.

They're people who are, you know, straight out of university or been stockbrokers or lawyers or whatever.

He's not much interested in having career soldiers so that their loyalty is to him rather than their career.

Not to the army.

And they carry a letter from him.

Literally, they carry a letter from him saying, I've been sent by a field marshal access all areas all that kind of stuff yeah yeah exactly i've been sent by the field marshal i can ask you any question do anything and they complete carte blanche but what they do is they go out in a jeep and first thing in the morning they go and talk to the headquarters they've got to talk to or whoever he's they've been sent to see they come back once monty's gone to bed they all get drunk drink a lot of wine it's very collegiate they call him the master yep they're all really tight as well aren't they they absolutely all love one another they're brothers absolutely and he loves them right and he wants them to be honest with him and it's a very interesting thing where as long as you don't sort of go over the edge of sort of respect in the relationship you can basically speak to him freely and frankly it's very very very interesting and they tend to be friends of family you know carol mather for instance his brother's been an elo so he's brought in yes for that reason because the family know one another don't they family friends and all this sort of thing and one of the longest serving is a guy called Major John Poston.

Oh, yes, who is a major, isn't he?

But he's only 24 or 5 or something, isn't he?

Monty inherits him from Gott's headquarters.

So he's 11th Hussars, he's a fighting soldier, he's got a military cross.

Yes, and for those who can't remember, Gott is the guy who takes over from Auchinleck as commander of the 8th Army at the very beginning of August 1942.

Yeah.

When they've been routed, they've managed to hold the German and Italian Panzer Army Africa on the Alamein line in July.

There's then been a change at the top.

Gott's got it, and on his first big meeting in Cairo, he gets shot down en route and killed and burned in his Bristol Bombay.

Because they think they're shooting Churchill down, don't they?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

yeah.

And Montgomery comes to take over.

And he inherits Poston from Gott's setup.

Monty does, yeah.

Yeah.

And Poston is regarded as the absolute life and soul of the Attack HQ.

And by the way, this TAC HQ is Montgomery's forward tactical headquarters.

It's not his main headquarters.

The idea is that he can be away from the hustle and bustle of the main headquarters to think and do things his way.

And also close to the front.

And it's close to the front.

But the point is, it's not where all the paperwork's being done and the sort of tedious grind and all the phone calls go.

It's a comparatively small operation in the big scheme of things that's right compared to the main headquarters and freddy de gangon runs his main is the point poston has been there throughout in his friend's estimation they say he would have sailed with drake you know this is a man for adventure he's obviously he's got a piano that he's liberated he's got his own caravan that he's liberated he's living his best life but yeah thing is is on april the 21st they go to see major general pip roberts at 11th armor division's headquarters yes him with peter earl captain peter earl so poston is with captain peter earl isn't he they head off in a jeep and earl is at Carol Mather's replacement because Carol Mather has been shot down by a Fokkerwolf a couple of months earlier.

That's right, yeah, but he's okay.

He's okay, but he's shot down and his arm's broken and he's at order combat.

So Earl has been sent as his replacement and he's fitting in very well.

They think the journey is a waste of time because 11th Armored aren't up to much and they take a shortcut.

They recommend a shortcut to head home.

You know, they're driving home and Earl says, you know, we're looking forward to the hock that we're going to drink when we after the debriefing of the master and all this sort of stuff.

And suddenly they are ambushed.

And we've talked about this in the last few episodes.

Little pockets of German troops jumping out with Panzerfaus and all the rest of it.

What they've got to do is go down swinging.

And they're ambushed.

Some German troops start firing on them.

And there's one little group who've set up a machine gun in the road.

And they try and race on.

And they basically, Earl's hit in the arm.

They fire back with the sten guns until they run out of ammunition.

And then Earl crashes the Jeep into the machine gun, killing the crew.

Right?

And as they're gathering themselves from the crash, he hears Poston cry, No, no, no, stop, stop, before one of the Germans bayonets him, lying on the ditch, and he's unarmed, he has his hands up.

I presume he gets him in the heart, does he?

Yeah, yeah, kills him then and there, just like that.

Early is then shot again, cleans his chinograph maps, wipes clean the intel he's been gathering from 11th Armoured, and then he's captured and he's taken to a dressing station.

And he's been shot again.

Following day, he's moved from the farm where he'd been illicitly treated to another dressing station.

And they've had a look in his pockets, and they see the letter from Monty.

The German officer says, Hang on a minute, you know where the field marshal is.

And he goes, No, no, no, I have no idea.

You know, I don't know what you're talking about.

And they don't believe him.

So he's in trouble here.

And they say, Is it?

We think he's here.

And he goes, No, no, he's not there.

And ends up in sort of game of cat mouse with one of the officers.

But they're liberated the next day.

Royal Welsh fusiliers appear.

There's a Tommy at the window with his Sten gun.

Earl has to say, Please don't shoot us all.

And

he gets taken to a field ambulance, 212 field ambulance, where he has to wire TACHQ to tell them what's happened.

Regret to report, John Poston killed at 1800 hours.

And then Monty comes to see him in his hospital bed at the casualty clearing station.

And Earl says to him bluntly, he's been bayoneted in a ditch.

And in later life, Earl says, I've kind of regretted the way I told him because it was just too harsh.

It was too blunt.

And then Monty pins a...

military cross onto his pajama top then and there and says i'm going to have a photograph taken for your wife so she knows you're alive which is you know good Monty decent fellow yes exactly unlike Keitel

exactly but the thing is is Poston's death absolutely shatters Monty yeah and he thinks he's murdered doesn't he's been murdered the guy's been murdered and he doesn't speak for two days yep that's right just coming to terms of it yeah exactly there's a message of condolence from the prime minister 11th hussars do an honor guard at his funeral and this line he says in his obituary in the Times is just amazing.

I was completely devoted to him, and I feel very sad.

Something has definitely gone out of my life.

And he cries openly at his funeral.

And, you know, Monty is all too often painted as this sort of emotionless automaton.

I mean, there's someone the other day saying, oh, he's, you know, he's probably autistic.

Yeah, well, whatever, right?

You know, retroactive diagnosis is extremely dodgy.

But here he is weeping openly.

And he's basically, you know, in grief.

The thing thing about Monty is Monty knows what war is.

He knows what the cost is.

It isn't a game where he's just trying to get his way the whole time.

He knows exactly what the stakes are.

Thank you for taking care over Operation Blunder.

Exactly.

And part of the backdrop to when the surrender comes to...

Is what has happened to John Poston?

It's what has happened to John Poston and feeds into this moment.

So at Dernitz's headquarters on the 3rd of May, back to the surrender, Keitel and Dernitz are discussing how to end the war, although they've moved to Flensburg, which is is the latest government headquarters.

Keitel says, it was obvious to us that when the time came, we would be asked to capitulate on the spot and without further ado.

So it was a matter of expediting the transfer of what was still over 3 million troops from the Eastern Front to the American occupation zone to prevent them falling into Russian hands.

I mean,

Lula.

Yeah, Lula.

What the heck?

What the heck?

Lula.

Yeah, Tony Bonkers.

But out of this,

the surrender starts.

So the surrender at Timoloberg begins with a phone call.

So on the morning of the 3rd of May, Kit Dornay's at Monty's Tuck HQ takes a call informing him that Lieutenant General Dempsey's headquarters at Second Army had been visited by a delegation.

So Dempsey, as we will all remember, is a guy who lands British Second Army on D-Day alongside the Canadians.

And Dernitz has sent a delegation because he felt as a German head of state that it was beneath him to negotiate with the field marshal.

Yeah.

And also, he's the architect of U-boat warfare.

He probably thinks that might count against him in dealings with the British.

So he sends a delegation of four, and they're sent on to TAC from Dempsey's headquarters.

Yeah.

In a British car with Captain Derek Nee from Dempsey's headquarters translating for them.

Because they haven't brought someone with them who can speak English.

It hasn't occurred to them.

They're not thinking straight at all, are they?

At the moment, clearly.

So leading the delegate is General Admiral.

Hans Jorg von Friedberg, who we'll be seeing quite a lot of over the course of the next few surrenders.

Yes, the lacrimos grand admiral.

Yes, the lacrimose admiral.

And he has recently been appointed as commander-in-chief of the Kriegsmarine

because, of course, Dernitz booted upstairs as the new leader of the Third Reich, not Führer.

There's a vacancy.

So he's taken over command of the U-boat arm and Dernitz has been promoted to head of the Kriegsmarine.

And then once.

He's in that sequence.

He's in that sequence.

So with von Friedberg are his flag officer, Real Admiral Gerhard Wagner, as well as Bush's chief of staff, Major General Eberhard Kinsel.

So Bush is the army commander in the area.

Is he Army Group G?

I can't remember.

Yeah, I think so, yeah.

And Major Hans Joachim Friedel from OKW.

So Trumbull Warren, fantastic name, isn't it?

Trumble Warren.

My name is Trumbull Warren.

A Canadian LO described them as, well, he describes Kinzel as a magnificent-looking officer, about six foot five, complete with monocle, a real professional Prussian.

What is it with these people and their monocles?

And Major Friedel had the cruelest face of any man i've ever seen you obviously hadn't met kalton brunner no

and what's interesting about this the germans are all dressed up like this and the british and duke guys they're all in battle dress they're not dressed up for germans leather great coats yeah for monty and co it's battle dress exactly so monty makes them wait and he makes them wait behind a line drawn in the dirt by the union jack at the gates of the tack hqs yeah and it one one of them seems to think um one report from the germs is there's a stick put on the ground for them to stand behind.

And Bush is furious about this when he hears about it.

Anyway, you're going to be Monty and I'll be Monty.

I'll be Monty.

And he does this sort of floppy, scruffy salute, like a sloppy salute, because they're all like bolt up, right?

He's like,

whatever.

Whatever.

And he says, who are you?

I am General Admiral von Friedburg.

Because he's blubbs a lot.

Commander-in-Chief of the Kriesmarines, sir.

I have never heard of you.

Who are you?

Major General Kinsel.

Never heard of you.

Who are you?

He says to Friedel.

I am Meyer Friedel.

Major!

How dare you bring a major to my headquarters?

Yeah, superb.

And at this point, Trumbull Warren whispers to Kit Dorney, the chief was putting on a pretty good act.

And Dorney whispers back.

Shut up, USOP.

He's been rehearsing this for six years.

And then Monty says, what do you want?

So von Friedberg attempts to read a letter that he's bearing from Field Marshal Keitel, but his poor English and his blubbing get the better of him so the knee translates instead and it's a tale of german woe army group vistula north of berlin in tatters and keitels asking for a state of soviet execution and would they be able to surrender to monty and monty says certainly not those armies are fighting the russians so they must surrender to the russians i'm not going to have any dealings about anything on my eastern flank that subject is closed though he does say individual soldiers with their hands up he'll take but he's not taking army group surrenders from anybody so they try again don't they they try try again, and he's just not having anything.

And he berates the Germans for Coventry.

Yeah, he says, you should have thought of this six years ago.

Well, he's got a point.

Yeah, he has got a point.

I mean, it's a thing we've often said on the podcast.

Yeah, horrors of Bergen-Belsen starting the war, bringing ruin upon themselves.

Yeah.

And if there wasn't an unconditional surrender, he'd unleash further misery.

But then what he does, this is very interesting, is he says, but if you surrender all German forces between Lübeck and the Dutch coast, as well as everyone in Denmark, Heligoland, and the German islands, basically everyone he's facing.

That will be okay.

He'll take it.

He'll take it.

And they're rendered speechless by this because, such is the state of their delusion.

They have not come to take that kind of offer.

They're trying to sort of do some horse trading and some finagling.

So, what Monty does then is he gets his staff, he says, bring me a map.

And he gets a map and he shows them their dispositions and their dispositions and the full state of play and exactly what a nightmare things are for the Wehrmacht.

And then he says to them, you guys think it over.

Have some lunch.

I'll I'll see you later.

Eat a bully beef sandwich.

Exactly.

So they go and sit down and Friederberg weeps openly at the table.

Yeah, he's blubbing his head out.

That's right.

And Alan Moorhead describes it as it's embarrassing, mate.

It's embarrassing, mate.

Pull your socks up, mate.

Pull your socks up, pal.

And there's a great little thing where one of the German-speaking officers in the mess at this point goes to them and says, you enjoying the food?

And they go, oh, yeah, it's really fantastic food as well.

And they say, it's a real shame.

It's not our usual stuff.

The chef can't provide us as he ought to.

And they're basically pranking them.

Even at this point, the LOs, the TAC HQ, the sense of humor, the pranks are ongoing.

Yes, and they have this terrific sort of atmosphere and culture of betting on everything.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's led from Monty.

Monty loves a wager.

He loves a wager, yeah.

So in the meantime, in the A-Mess, because they're the two messes, they get some tables together, they cover them with blankets, they've got maps laid out on them so he can mark up the German positions.

And his staff are to be armed, but discreetly.

I think all these tiny little touches that Monty's, as Kit Dornay says, has been preparing for six years.

And there's Colonel Joe Hewitt will interpret.

So after lunch, he comes back and they're all full of lunch and brandy and coffee.

And he, in much greater detail, sets out in the AMS on the map on the table, the much more detailed description of their situation.

He's wearing his decorations this time.

He's less casual and he's being more businesslike.

Von Friederberg blubs again.

Because, you know, he's come to try and drive a bargain and dodge the Soviets and do what Donitz wants and it's have some influence over events and so once the briefings are complete Monty sums up and there's the CBS correspondent Bill Downs who's there he says basically Monty wants unconditional surrenders in the areas he's talked about earlier once the Germans have surrendered and only then would he discuss the implications of your surrender how we will dispose of those surrendered troops how we will occupy the surrendered territory how we will do this deal with civilians and so forth so it's a literally an unconditional surrender you will surrender and then yes and he says, and my third point.

It's absolutely amazing.

This.

And my third point: if you do not agree to point one, the surrender, then I will go on with the war and I will be delighted to do so.

All your soldiers and civilians may be killed.

You know?

Friedberg sort of dabs his eyes and pulls his socks up and pulls himself together.

And agrees to deliver this news to Dernitz in person.

Yeah, exactly.

Because von Friedberg says he just doesn't have the authority to accept Monty's offer.

So arrangements are then made and the chastened German deputation separated.

Wagner and Kinsell remained effectively as hostages at TAC HQ.

And von Friedberg and Major Friedel returned to Flensberg.

And Monty's staff arranged for a break-in-air operations to allow von Friedberg and Friedel to get back to Flensberg without being shot up.

And at TAC HQ, the two Germans

you know, are remaining there, spending a very anxious night.

You know, Kinsell being quizzed in detail about the state of the German army and explaining to Joe Hewitt that the surrender would entail 1 million German soldiers, 400,000 prisoners of war, and 2 million civilians.

He'd fled the Soviet advance.

And in the meantime, word creeps out into 21st Army Group that the surrender is imminent.

So that evening, Monty wires

Field Marshal Allenbrook, who is, of course, the chief of the Imperial General Staff, Britain's most senior officer, and informs him about what's been going on that day.

And his view is that from Bieberg knows that the writing's on the wall, that resistance is not going to be prolonged, that he's got it with the surrender's almost in his hand.

And that night, he writes to his son David's guardians, who are a family called the Reynolds, and he says, I really do think the war in Germany is drawing to a close.

We took one million prisoners in April, and the total since D-Day is three million.

So, as night falls, and Monty's staff erect a marquee for the return of the German delegation, the field marshal goes to bed at his usual term,

9:30.

And as you've pointed out, he likes things just so, even on a night like this.

Well, we're going to take a quick break now while Monty gets his beauty sleep, and in the morning, we will return with the surrender.

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Welcome back to We Have Ways to Make You Talk.

So it's nine o'clock the following morning.

It's now the 4th of May.

And von Friederberg is explaining how things had gone to Dernitz and his advisors.

There's quite a lot of long faces at the Third Reich headquarters in Flensberg.

Keitel and Jodel, they're concerned with Germany's military honor, blah, blah, blah.

Deep state of delusion, still kind of, you know, holding forth.

And Dernitz is complaining that my generation is never again going to see the flourishing Germany.

As a nation, we have been set back for a thousand years, but we must, as quickly as possible, do all we can for those millions of Germans who have a chance of going on with life.

I mean, no.

Shut up.

It's just

bonkers.

Yeah, it's bonkers.

Oh, dear me.

But regardless, they know they can't mess with Monty.

They realize this.

No one can.

And there's a proposal that the Germans destroy their arms, and and they decide they can't do that even, because it sits outside the terms that Monty's insisted on.

So his terms and conditions will apply.

And what's really interesting is they're already referring to the part of Germany that the Red Army has seized as Russia and the rest as Germany.

You know, when Elena Kargan passed that sign that said, this was the German border, there's a peculiar echo of that in Flensburg, the idea that the bits lost are gone now.

Well, of course, don't forget, back in Yalta in February, it has been agreed that they will dismember Germany.

Yeah, yeah.

And actually, curiously, then after Yalta, Stalin then reels back on that and says, actually, I'm not sure that we do want to dismember Germany.

But anyway, it's still sort of up for grabs and will be dismembered at Potsdam.

But there is this sense that Germany is going to be broken up.

And then at two o'clock, 1400 hours, the German delegation has still not returned to the rendezvous where Trumbull Warren's waiting.

They asked for 48 hours previously, and they were given 24 by Monty.

So he decides to wait.

He thinks, actually, it's too important to wait.

I can't huff off.

To not wait, yeah.

Yeah.

So, and then at 4:30, the Germans appear.

At five o'clock, they arrive at TAC HQ.

And the victory tent has been set up.

It's a table covered with blankets.

And Monty's been hanging out with the war correspondents who are traveling with the TAC HQ.

I mean, Alan Moorehead, we mentioned earlier.

Chester Wilmot, another Australian, he'd gone disguised as a captain with the party to Flensburg in order to try and get a scoop and sees Himmler there and says, what's Himmler doing?

And they say, and the Germans with himself ignore him.

He's not important anymore.

Yeah, amazing, isn't it?

It's kind of amazing.

And basically, they all know how awkward he can be with the press and how good he is putting his foot in his mouth and all this sort of thing.

But they agree this is the best press conference he's ever given because he's in such a good mood.

And he does a little like gloating.

He says, no doubt that if the piece of paper I've prepared is signed, forces to be surrendered, total over a million chaps.

Not so bad.

A million chaps.

Good egg.

Well, I think we should start.

doing what we can to bring back the expression good egg jim i agree

and then colonel ewart who's the the interpreter, comes through and says to Monty, the Germans are back and they're prepared to sign the document.

And he says, now we shall see their doings.

And off he goes, tells the journalists to go to the victory tent.

And it's pouring with rain.

The sky's black.

There's aircraft overhead.

Von Friederberg is sort of dabbing his cheek again from the tears.

That's right, that's right.

And Monty says to von Friederberg, come with me into my caravan for a moment because I want to make sure we know where we are before we get into this.

And he says, he was very dejected.

And I told him to rejoin the others others outside.

So basically, absolutely, von Friedberg turned up with his hanky.

So sorry, it wasn't my fault.

Exactly.

Exactly.

End of Germany.

And the BBC have set up some microphones, film crew.

Full humiliation.

Full humiliation.

Monty enters the tent at half past six.

Germans stand to attention.

One of them goes to smoke.

Of course, you're not allowed to smoke in Monty's presence because of his lung injury from the Great War.

Only Ike and Church are allowed to smoke around Monty.

So he gets bollocked, whoever wants to smoke, wants to light up.

And then he sits at the table and he reads out the instrument of surrender.

And he repeats his threat that if they don't sign, he will carry on the war.

And they nod to indicate they understand.

And then he orders them to sign it in the order of seniority.

That's what they do.

It's the sound of cameras whirring and the tent canvas flapping in the wind.

the bad weather outside.

They sign the surrender all the way from Friederberg down to Major Friedel, who Monty calls Friedel, pronounces his name wrong.

And then Monty says, now I will sign on behalf of the Supreme Ally Commander, General Eisenhower, signing it B.L.

Montgomery.

Comma field marshal.

Comma field marshal.

Love it.

Adding the date and time, and he gets the wrong date and has to amend it from the fifth to the fourth and initials the correction, which is just absolutely brilliant.

You know, he's so excited.

There's a glimpse of the excitement there as he gets the date.

And then that means that the Germans have now conceded defeat in Germany.

I think it's the critical part, isn't it?

And it's really, really, you know, I'm a Monty man.

I think there is something wonderful and fitting about it being Monty who takes the surrender and that the British take the first surrender in Germany.

You know, we've been in it from the beginning.

And here we are first in at the end.

I don't disagree.

But I think Monty's absolutely tremendous.

I've gone the full 360s on him.

I think he's absolutely superb.

I think he's a tremendous figure.

And, you know, his faux pas and his lack of sensitivity at times, I think, are kind of offset by some of the brilliant things he does.

And also, you want your heroes to be flawed.

I mean, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You don't want to be perfect.

Or you need to be able to handle them being flawed.

Yeah, completely.

That's the thing.

People were capable of knowing he was flawed and heroic at the time.

So why can't we be now?

Yes, exactly.

And these things, it's not all or nothing.

You know, everyone always sort of goes.

Monty's a good general, he's a bad general.

He's got his fans, he's got his detractors.

It's perfectly possible to have a kind of a complicated view of Monty and like some of it and not like others.

And I think that's absolutely fine.

Anyway, that is the surrender done.

So we've got one out of the way.

Well, the pen disappears.

The pen disappears.

No one knows where that's gone.

And on May the 5th, following morning, at 0800 hours, official cessation of hostilities is announced.

The fighting has already wound down.

And that Canadian lieutenant can get on with getting drunk with the Russians without too much worry.

Right.

We're back in Berlin.

And the issue for Berliners, of course, is now they're at the mercy of their victors, the people who are now their new overlords, and of course, it's the Red Army.

And, you know, yeah, so they get 72 Reichsfenig, Fenninger, and a single food ration card as their daily wage for kind of, you know, being Trumafrau.

This rubble.

They work in columns of 20.

They're picking bricks, beams, fireplaces, anything.

And there's these sort of chains with buckets and stuff that they're kind of moving it all out of the way.

And one of the men hisses at them as they walk past and looks at them and goes, commissars.

He hisses bloody stool pigeons.

Of course, then,

you know, if only he'd known what they'd really been doing during the war, you know, this sort of resistance work.

But of course, at the same time, that day, 6th of May, Gross Admiral Dernitz finally decides he wants nothing more to do with Himmler, who's hanging around the headquarters in Flambeau's like a bad smell.

5 p.m., he summons the Reichster and tells him to get lost, basically.

That's it.

So that's him out.

And at the same time, he sends General Yodel, who is still chief of the operations staff at the OKW, the German German staff he sends them to Reims to negotiate a surrender you know finally they finally come to their senses and realize that it's that it's all over but they are still trying to buy for time well yes and this is the thing is that so Ike will not see anyone from this German government doesn't recognize it won't deal with Nazis so he's previous on this in 1943 when von Armin surrenders in Tunisia Ike will not see him will not shake his hand He's going to have nothing to do with it.

So Jodel is dealt with by Lieutenant General Walter Beadle Smith, the Beatle, who's Ike's chief of staff.

He's been by his side and knows Ike inside out, knows his mind, and is of his mind too.

And what's happened is Friederberg has already been to see Beadle Smith and gets nowhere in the same way because he's getting he's trying to run the clock down.

So when Yodel arrives.

So what about when Yodel goes?

Jodel goes first.

This is the point.

So Yodel then arrives.

Is Friederberg blubbing again?

Well, yes, Von Friederberg's been blubbing and all this thing.

And basically, the Beatle says, okay, I'll talk to Yodel.

There is no patience.

There is no patience for them running the clock down.

They know that, right?

So the Beatle says, look, surrender in the West Alone is not an option.

And then Yodel starts sort of going, well, you know, I don't have the authority.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I can't sign for the army, the Luftwaffe, and the Kriegsmarine.

You know, it'd take a day to rustle up the personnel to sign the surrender and all this sort of thing.

It's a technical college at Grams that Schaefer's stationed at.

And without any fanfare, without any banners and everything, it's just an anonymous building.

And they're making sure of that for security reasons.

And so the Beatle goes to see Ike and says, you know, this is going on.

He's stalling.

And Ike says, well, tough shit.

Tell him he has to surrender.

And then goes off to a cocktail party, which Kay Summersby, his driver, has organized with a women's auxiliary cocktail for.

And Yodel is talking to Beetle Smith and General Strong, who's the British intelligence officer.

Yes, Kenneth Strong.

Kenneth Strong, who's a British intelligence officer, speaks German, and he's very much an Ike man, not a Monty man.

Yes, and he's very tight with Beetle as well, isn't he?

That's right.

And at Schaif, it's basically de rigueur to sort of roll your eyes about Monty all the time.

And all the Brits are doing that too, because they want a quiet life at Schaefer.

Anyway, Jodel is saying to them, you know, I still don't have the authority.

And they know he's running the clock down.

They think he's completely out of touch with reality.

And they say, you've got to sign by midnight.

We want you to sign now, but we'll give you 48 hours to conform to the terms of the surrender.

And if you don't, bombing will resume and Germans will refuse to accept German soldiers coming from the East to surrender.

So he puts the pressure on.

And at 9:45, Jodel radios Keitel at Flensberg.

Yep.

Yodel, his wire reads, and they all of the communications they have to do through 21st Army Group headquarters in open transmission because they don't have their own means of communication.

They haven't brought a radio with them.

You know, it's all so hopeless.

And again, they're relying on the Americans and the British to translate for them.

His wire reads, General Eisenhower insists to be signed today.

Otherwise, Allied front will be closed to all those trying to surrender.

Negotiations will be discontinued.

I see no choice other than chaos or signing.

Please send wireless confirmation that I I have the authority to sign the surrender.

The capitulation can then take effect.

Hostilities will end at midnight on May the 9th, 945, German summitized.

So again, even that is running the clock down.

At Flensburg, they see that they call it blackmail, the conditions that Jodel has relayed.

But then three quarters of an hour later, Dernitz messages Jodel back, go ahead and sign.

Fine.

And Jodel has also been saying to Strong, you need to side with us, the Germans, against the Americans and the Russians, because that's the world that's coming.

He's trying everything, basically, to kill time.

In the meantime, Schaefer staff have got their war room ready, which is the big room in the technical college with a wall-to-ceiling map behind plastic of the whole of the theatre.

There's microphones, film cameras.

There's 12 chairs around the large table, a further row behind.

Yes.

And, you know, everyone's waiting.

The Soviets are there looking rather tense because, after all, there's a surrender about to be signed.

But no Eisenhower.

He's still not there.

He's had nothing to do with it.

He's having nothing to do with it.

He's staying in his office.

So at 02.30 hours on the 7th of May, the press officers and men cram into the map room.

Yes, and one of the people who's there is Billy Drake.

That's right.

My old friend, he's shot down in his hurricane over France in 1940.

Absolutely amazing.

Commands 112 Shark Squadron in the Western Desert.

He's there.

Incredible.

And Ike's not there.

He's still in his office.

He's not going to sign the document.

He's not going to.

The Beetlebill on his behalf.

So the German deputation enter.

Jodel removes his glasses as he sits down.

The footage of this is great because they all are mortified.

Von Friederberg, you know, ready to blub.

There's a solid glass ashtray between the pair of them to Jodel's right is Maja Wilhelm Oxenius who's his aide-de-camp who's there to translate and assist but you know he's present but not involved really then the document is signed at 0241 hours 0241 on the 7th of May the 7th of May Ike is still not there he's in his office smoking Kay Summersby you know who's his driver who and maybe his lover and we will never know it says though at the same time I thought it rather lonely and pathetic in the Supreme Commander's office the silence was heavy with the contrast of the bust in the war room because very often, Ike prefers being on his own because of the pressure of the job.

He'd just think, I need to be by myself often enough.

Oh my God, can you imagine the responsibility on his shoulders?

That's just ridiculous.

Absolutely ridiculous.

Absolutely ridiculous.

Burden of command if ever there was, you know, that phrase is cheapest.

Appropriate to him, anyway.

Yeah, it's inadequate, that idea.

And, you know, the pressure turns him into, I think, into a diamond is the thing.

He's at the peak of his abilities at this point as well, in the way he's dealing with the coalition, I think, is the other thing.

So Yodel makes a show of examining the document.

Oh, what am I signing away here?

You know, unlike the I agree internet forms we all click on these days.

Beadle Smith witnesses along with the French general, Major General François Serves, and General Ivan Sosloparov for the Soviets with an interpreter.

And there it is, it's signed.

But what happens, and this is quite amazing.

Yeah, it is absolutely amazing this, isn't it?

This is Yodel standing up.

He gets up and saying, I want to have my moment.

He says, I want a word.

He says in English, and he starts in English and basically he says, With this signature, the German people and armed forces are, for better or worse, delivered into the Wichters' hands.

And then he switches back to German because he can't cope.

In this war, which has lasted more than five years, both have achieved and suffered more than perhaps any other people in the world.

In this hour, I can only express my hope that the Wichtas will treat them with generosity.

I mean, yeah, everyone's happy gobsmat by this, aren't they?

Yeah, no one replies.

The arrogance, the kind of

delusion, the kind of delusion.

You know, our people have achieved and suffered more than that.

And finally, it's time for Yodel to meet the Supreme Commander.

That's right.

So Ike will see him now that he's signed, and he's in the headmaster's office.

He won't shake his hand, won't salute him, doesn't do anything.

Nothing.

They don't explain pleasantries.

Air Chief Marshal, Sir Arthur Tedder, is with him as deputy chaf.

And he basically says, do you understand the...

provisions of the surrender and Yodel says ya and then Ike goes on and says says you will get details of instructions at a later date and you will be expected to carry them out faithfully you will officially and personally be held responsible if the terms of this surrender are violated including its provisions for the german commanders to appear in berlin at the moment set by the russian high command to accomplish formal surrender to that government that is all yeah and yodel says yeah

yeah

and it's and it's removed off he goes and then ike and tedda go through to the war room they pose with the pens that have been used to sign the surrender and then he speaks it's quite a long speech but i think the really critical bit, and Ted is sort of brooding at his side, looking important.

Ike says this unconditional surrender has been achieved by teamwork.

Not only by teamwork, teamwork, not only among the allies participating, but all the services, land, sea, and air.

To every subordinate of this command of almost five million allies, I owe a debt of gratitude that can never be repaid.

The only repayment that can be made to them is a deep appreciation and lasting gratitude of all free citizens of all the United Nations.

And he drinks his champagne that Kay Summersby says tastes flat, draws on his ever-present cigarette, poses with the pens, and that is the surrender at Rams, as the Americans call it.

Yes.

And at that point, we should take another break.

Another break, because we are going to do something unprecedented.

We have Ways of Make You Talk.

This is a three-parter, because there's no way to get all the meat in the sausage easily.

It's the simple truth.

And we will be back with the next big surrender after the break.

See you in a tick.

Welcome back to We Have Ways of Making You Talk for Our Unprecedented Third Part Jim.

We've not done this before, have we?

No, no, no, no, no, but still quite a few surrenders to get through.

And the aim here is, after all, to avoid a ninth episode of this eight-part series.

That would just be wrong.

Exactly.

You can't have an odd numbers series.

No, and the sharp-eared amongst you bear notice the ambience has changed on our microphone since last time we spoke.

I was in York, you were in Salisbury, and today we're together in London to finally get Gabble Hanger Towers.

Exactly.

we're getting the war over the line, finish line.

We've been summoned to head office to get the Second World War in Europe finished.

There will not be a ninth episode.

There will not be a ninth episode.

Nine!

Nine!

Nine!

Anyway, so as we've seen, the Germans, Jodel has surrendered to Eisenhower Hams.

He's done his embarrassing.

No one knows how tough it's been for us, Germany.

Friedberg's done some blowing.

Friedberg's done a healthy bit of move.

He's got a animosity.

But this now means what are the Allies going to say?

Well, Eisenhower's saying, well, it seems sensible to me that we announce it at 6 p.m.

London time.

This allows it to be made at a decent hour in the Soviet Union across all of Europe and throughout the whole of the United States.

And that gives, you know, so where are we?

Two in the morning, whatever it is.

Yeah.

So now it's 2.41.

2.41.

So, yeah, okay.

So that gives us sort of, you know, 15 hours, 16 hours.

So that gives the Germans time to sort of order all further hostilities to cease.

And Churchill's certainly happy with this.

And he can't understand why Truman or Stalin could possibly disagree.

And so he tells the British chiefs of staff and the war cabinet to get ready to appear on the balcony of Buckingham Palace at 6.30 that evening.

And of course, he starts writing his victory speech.

I can't imagine he hadn't had some jotting, done some jotting beforehand.

Possibly.

Possibly, possibly.

But the thing is, though, what that list included basically was Stalin.

He's not going to agree.

He's not going to play ball, is he?

He's cussed and he's difficult.

And whatever the Allies agree, he's going to say exactly the opposite.

And he does, the reason you can look at this as Stalin being difficult, but the Second World War, if it's happened anywhere, it has happened within the Soviet Union, hasn't it?

You could argue.

You know, certainly to the populations, to the people.

I don't know if people living in Hamburg would agree with that, but, you know.

Well, well, no, but they started it.

If you see what I mean.

But you can see why he would, for the Soviet peoples, he might feel that he needs to do this, even though he doesn't really care about public opinion.

And certainly for Soviet prestige, which is, after all, part of his own personal and national prestige.

Because since we last spoke, I've been thinking long and hard about how, why is is he doing this and why is he getting away with it?

And what his reasoning might be.

Because his reasoning might be, well, loads more of us have been killed in this war than anyone else.

Yeah, but entirely of his not entirely, but largely of his own making.

That's for some other time.

Anyway, so but basically what he's saying is they've surrendered to the allies in Rams, but they haven't surrendered to the Red Army.

The Red Army has not been surrendered to, and until the Germans sign a surrender to Zhukov in Berlin, no dice.

The war has not ended yet.

So furious telegram traffic hurtling back and forth.

Stalin insists there's absolutely no sign of the Germans slackening the fight on the Red Army's front, which wasn't the case.

And proposes delaying the official instrument of surrender until it's signed in Berlin at one minute after midnight on the 9th of May.

And it would then be announced to the world at 7 a.m.

the same day, which, of course, is not very helpful to anyone else.

Churchill's outraged.

He was thinking it's absolutely ridiculous of five and a half long years to keep this moment of victory away from everybody.

He cables Truman and asks the president to ring him as soon as possible on the open line,

asking for Colonel Warden Whitehall 4433

and telling him that he will address him as Admiral.

We can both then tell UJ, Uncle Joe, what we're going to do.

But Truman's thinking, well, I'm not sure about that.

Maybe we should kind of, you know, pay a better lip service to Stalin.

But anyway, it all gets forced forward because at 2.27 p.m.

on the afternoon of the 7th of May, Count Schwerin von Klosig, the newly appointed foreign minister of the Dernitz regime, he announces in a radio broadcast from Frenzberg that Germany surrendered 12 hours earlier.

Yes.

The high command of the German armed forces on orders of Greut Admiral Dernitz has today declared unconditional surrender of German fighting troops.

After a heroic fight of almost six years of incomparable hardness, Germany has succumbed to the overwhelming power of her enemies.

To continue the war would only mean senseless bloodshed and futile disintegration.

Well, you could have thought that about three years earlier, couldn't you?

Yeah, well, yeah, absolutely.

Also, this heroic fight and an incomparable heart.

You started it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Oragel, isn't it?

It is completely outrageous.

I mean, it is interesting that it's essentially this broadcast by von Koisig that sort of then kicks this next sequence of things into the world.

But the news is going to get out anyhow, isn't it?

No, I guess so.

But the point is,

there have been a number of trusted war correspondents there to witness the signature at Reams, the signing at Reams.

And of course, they've all been embargoed.

But Ed Kennedy, who's a really highly regarded American war reporter for the Associated Press, AP News, News, as far as he's concerned, this is a scoop of a lifetime because he's heard this broadcast and he thinks, well, you know, it's out.

You know, the embargo is no longer valid.

So he immediately rings through to the London Bureau and is connected to Lewis Hawkins in the Associated Press's London newsroom.

And he goes, This is Ed Kennedy, Lou.

Germany has surrendered unconditionally.

That's surrendered unconditionally.

That's official.

Make the date.

Reims, France, and get it out.

So he does.

And he sends out about 300 words, including a quote from Jodel, the German senior commander at Reams, who's been at Reams.

And then the line goes dead, but it's enough, of course, because in no time, AP has wired the news all around the free world.

And people start hearing it and picking up on it.

And even that afternoon, the edition of the London Evening Standard is with the headline, Germany surrenders.

That's right.

And that leads to, I mean, then London goes into sort of party mode.

Pre-party, yeah, or anticipated party mode.

There's sort of naval guns being fired in Southampton, also, fireworks, all this sort of stuff.

Yeah, it actually ruins Kennedy's career.

He's never trusted ever again, and it absolutely is never forgiven for this.

Oh, man.

But anyway, be that as it may.

So, any future journalist listening, if you have a scoop of that magnitude and there's a Supreme Headquarters who don't want you to leak it, don't leak it.

That's what I'm saying.

This moment could come around again.

You never know, do you?

But the point is, crowds are forming in London, New York, all over the place.

It's clearly a completely ridiculous situation.

So at 4:10 London time, Churchill speaks to Admiral William Lee, who was, you know, the absolute number one advisor to Roosevelt, but is still Truman's chief of staff.

Yeah, that's right.

And Churchill just urges him to kind of, you know, ignore Stalin and announce Vitrium Europe immediately that evening, as ICA has originally planned.

But Leahy replies that Truman doesn't feel he can out without approval from Stalin.

So the announcement must wait till the 9th of May.

Churchill calls off in a bit of a half, tries again an hour later.

By this time, crowds are celebrating in the streets and beyond any control.

And he really urges Leahy.

He says, We've got to do this.

We just can't keep this up.

This is absolutely ridiculous.

But again, Truman insists on deferring to Stalin.

And this time, Churchill appeals directly to Stalin.

Which is amazing, this, isn't it?

That it's come to this.

But also, the last time Churchill and Stalin had any direct dealings, Yolta, wasn't it?

Yep.

And where Churchill's basically been kicked around like a football by Roosevelt, and Stalin is the problem.

So he's not got any clout with him, has he?

Yeah.

So he's suggesting getting on with it.

Yeah.

I propose that I should make the announcement at 6 p.m.

our time this evening, corresponding to noon Washington time and 7 p.m.

Moscow time.

Otherwise, it will seem that it is only the governments who do not know.

Yes, and really, it doesn't really matter what Stalin thinks, it's what Truman thinks.

I mean, he's the kind of most important partner to, or America's the most important partner to the British.

And also, the Soviet government don't care about how they appear, do they, in the citizenship?

No, but eventually, Truman concedes a point.

He says, okay, fine.

Well, what we'll do is we will...

The war will officially end, as the Soviet Union suggested, just after midnight on the 9th.

Yeah.

You know, the early hours of the 9th of May.

But let's agree that tomorrow should be considered VE Day in Europe, in London and New York.

Yeah.

And Churchill goes, okay, fine.

Thank God for that.

So then VE Day takes place both in the United States and in Britain on the 8th of May, which is why we still commemorate it to this day.

But actually, it was the one day where a signing wasn't, you know, there was no surrender.

Yeah, there was no victory on Europe.

There was no surrender.

And, you know, everyone's already pretty tanked up on the night of the 7th.

You know, everyone is absolutely in party mode.

But the parties continue.

It's actually a very nice day in London and, of course, in New York and Washington and elsewhere in the United States.

It's a lovely early summer's day.

Bit of fluffy white clouds over London.

Well, it's the first weather forecast permitted since the outbreak of hostilities on May the 8th.

That's right.

Because weather forecasts are the kind of information that you can't transmit in case the enemy finds out what the weather's like, basically.

And so it's the first weather forecast since the outbreak of hostilities, and it's wrong.

And the word, and it was wrong, yeah.

It is absolutely wrong.

But, you know.

Bloody met office, ain't it?

They get it wrong.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it absolutely is party time.

The two princesses, Elizabeth and Margaret, sneak out of Buckingham Palace and go incognito into the crowds famously.

Noel Coward wanders the streets from his.

He's been living at the Ritz because he's been bombed out.

And he walks up to the mall and watches the whole thing going on.

Harold Nicholson goes to Parliament, weeps for the other MPs at the names of of the dead MPs.

Yes, yes, there is an entrepreneur of the dead MPs, isn't there?

There's also, I remember talking to Tom Pocock, who'd been in the war and was later Alan Moorhead's biographer and Nelson's biographer.

Yeah.

And a lovely chap.

And he said, I remember lying

my head on the lap of a very pretty girl in Green Park while she poured champagne into my open mouth.

Well, there we are.

There you are.

There's the image.

I mean, the thing is, there's also a big outpouring of sort of, there's 20 services on the hoof at St.

Paul's.

Yes.

People can get the names of their fallen relatives dedicated.

And it's real.

People are still more connected to religion than they would be now.

So there's that aspect to it, too, which I think is really, really interesting.

And after the war, you can buy a vinyl of the services at St.

Paul's as a souvenir from HMV.

But we still haven't had this final surrender.

No, no, we still haven't.

And actually, we should just say also to all our American listeners, you know, there are celebrations throughout the US as well.

There is the ticker tape in New York.

There are very famous photographs of sailors snogging young girls and all the rest of it.

Slightly mixed view for people out in the Far East and in the Pacific where the wars continue.

It's the whole day, wherever it's happening, is tempered by the fact that Japan is still its unfinished business.

And I think you need to remember that, too.

There's the actual unfinished business of one minute past midnight, isn't there?

Yeah, yeah.

So we come to the final surrender in Europe.

It's just not finally over until the German high command sign the surrender formally in the wrecked capital of the United States.

I mean,

the interesting technicality of this, of course, is that because Flensburg is in the area that surrendered to Monty, all of these people are strictly speaking prisoners of war.

All these government officials, all these people with

pacing around Frenchball.

They're carrying on as though they're, yeah, I mean, what will happen is a 7th Armour Division will turn up and shake down Flensburg shortly, but not yet.

They get taken down in a C-47 down to Tempelhof

with Tedder.

Yeah.

And Spots, and people who are also being sent over from Reims.

They all meet at Tempelhof.

Yeah.

And then they're picked up in a car and they're taken to Carlshorst, which is this barracks in southeast Berlin.

You can still go and see it to this day.

And then they're put into a little, you know, the German delegation, poor old Admiral Friederberg again, who's still blubbing.

And Keitel is absolutely furious because he's left waiting.

And he gets driven through Berlin.

And he says, gosh, look at all this destruction.

And the Russian driver says to him, why didn't you think about that before you invaded the Soviet Union?

Kylet has no answer.

Which is the talk that Monty gives Friederberg a couple of days earlier, isn't it?

What's everyone's saying to them?

I mean, the idea, he he says, our patience is being sorely tried.

After five o'clock, we are taken into another building and served afternoon tea, but nothing happened.

They've been fed.

I mean, looked after.

You're going to have to wait, mate.

You've lost.

It's extraordinary.

Even now, at this stage, their attitude, it's just incredible.

It really, really is.

And by 10 p.m., he's absolutely furious.

He's livid.

Yeah.

His patience has been exhausted.

I mean, what?

He's got to get back to a stamp collection?

What's he got to do?

I mean, you've talked a lot about the kind of delusion at the highest level of the third reich and here you are i mean this is a guy who's been chief of staff under hitler and has died by his own hand whole of berlin is in ruins there's victory and he's complaining about being having to be kept waiting you know what you could call him you could he's a chateau general isn't he's a schloss general yeah if one country has ever been commanded by chateau generals it's nazi germany yeah

hold that thought listener you heard it here first yes anyway so he's finally just after midnight um they're led into a hall where the covered tables have been laid out so on the right-hand side of the room, under Allied flags, it's the top table.

And there's Marshal Zhukov, flanked by Tedder

and two.

Who's the Deputy Supreme Allied Commander?

And he was at Rams, of course, so he was there to witness the signature at Rams.

Three other tables are drawn up.

So it's like a big giant E, effectively.

And you've got the top table, and the flags are behind it, and then they've got these three longer tables coming off it.

And as you go into the room, the top bit of the, you know, the long bit of the E is on the right-hand side.

The back wall is where all the flags are.

And Keitel is put on the side near the entranceway

near to kind of 90 degrees to Zukov and Tedder and Spots.

And he says, every corner of the hall is packed and brilliantly lit by spotlights.

So he's on show.

Yeah, he's all dressed to nines.

He's got his field marshal's battle, baton.

Has he got a monocle?

He's got a monocle.

He does the whole kind of raising his monocle, raising his baton, rather.

He sits down.

His face looks kind of blotchy.

He takes off his gloves, carefully rearranges his monocle, and he does his best to sit Ramrod straight.

But there is a moment, because the whole thing's filmed, there's a moment where you see him start, and he looks over his shoulder, and he's taken aback, and you could see he's absolutely crapping himself.

Well, because

if the boot was on the other foot, he'd be shooting the guy coming to surrender to him later, wouldn't he?

You know what I mean?

There were three surrender documents, one in English, one in Russian, one in German.

Everyone in the party has to sign it.

So Teda Zukov, General Stumpf, yeah, Friederberg, and then Keitel.

So, you know, it's quite a lot of signing to be done, but it's finally done at 12.43 a.m.

Toasts then follow, then more toasts, and yet more again.

And by that time, the Germans have been whisked away again.

And what's absolutely amazing by this, because, you know, finally it's all done and dusted.

Although, actually, again, it's not formally over till 7 a.m.

the following morning.

All three German commanders are then taken back to Tempelhof and flown home.

We flew straight back to Strenzburg, believed to be in a British aircraft in Inza Air.

Touched down again at French at 10 o'clock.

And that means, so now the war is over.

I mean,

it is when the British do finally dismantle the Flensburg government, they're all outraged at the way they're all treated, the people who are still in power in Nazi Germany.

Such as power exists.

And it just shows the complete bubble of delusion and illusion they're living in.

completely and of course you know it's all met by kind of you know in different reactions to different people depending on where they are but we we mentioned ruf andreas friedrich who's who's a sort of anti-regime resistance fighter in berlin and she goes that the world goes on celebrating victory meanwhile berliners ponder where to find something to eat probably going to end up saying this again well they started it although obviously she's anti-regime it is interesting the sort of because there is a lot of writing about this about this sort of strange tip into self-pity that happens in Germany quite quickly after the end of the war isn't there yeah You can read about that quite a lot, a very good book, Aftermath, about what Berlin's like after the end of the war and how quite quickly there's this kind of like, look at what's been done to us.

And, you know, there's germs of that in what Yodel says, where no one suffered like the German people.

And again, in Krossig's broadcast, that thing of no one knows the things we've been through here.

Thanks very much.

And if you're stood in a ruined Berlin and you're a Berliner, you can say that to yourself, can't you?

I think

quite convincingly, right?

Yes, you can.

You can.

But I mean, there's a lot of people in Berlin.

there's a lot of people all over Europe who are facing the ruins of their lives.

There's lots of people, of course, who don't, millions of people who don't make it at all to that day.

So, you know, and it's really interesting.

And even Jelena Kagan, who we've mentioned a number of times, who was clutching Hitler's teeth after his body had been found, and more of that story in a later episode.

But her heart is singing with joy at the thought that she was still alive and that one day soon she might really return home and stare up at a peaceful sky.

The war is over, the war is no more, but at the same time, she's close to tears at the afflictions of the past, she writes, and from bewilderment over the future one now faces.

And I think it is fair to say that in many ways, there were no victors at all.

No.

And that you're at the end of an epically pointless struggle, cataclysm.

Yep, yeah, catastrophe that has just shattered, killed, you know, up to 60 million people, ruined the lives of many, many more, changed changed borders, shattered cities, villages, towns, seen just untold scales of destruction.

But in Europe, at any rate, it is finally over.

Yeah, and the pieces have to fall back into whatever new place they will.

Yeah.

And the war in Japan is still to go on.

And if you're George MacDonald Fraser

in Burma somewhere and an officer shouts out, Chaps, the war in Europe's over, the men with him from the border regiment think so what?

But I think that what's interesting about the end of the war in Europe, particularly and indeed in the war in against Imperial Japan, is the peace settlements are pretty good.

And, you know, we're still reaping the benefits of that very good peace settlement that was arranged both here and in the Far East.

And a couple of months' time in August 1945.

Well, thanks, everyone.

There we are.

We've got to the end of the Second World War, but not the end of the podcast, as Jim hinted a moment ago.

We are going to do a wash-up, which will also include the hunt for Hitler's teeth.

The truth behind what really happened to Hitler.

The truth.

No.

Sword alerts.

He didn't go to South America.

Exactly.

The truth, the truth, and the whole tooth about what happened to him.

Very good.

And his brains all over the.

You can't fly to Argentina or go to Argentina by a submarine if your brains are on a sofa.

No, just come it up, particularly when they're 12 foot underground.

Exactly.

Anyway, thanks everybody for listening.

Don't forget, you can listen to all these in one go.

Let's say you've got to this last one and you think, why did I have to go through all those ads?

Sign up to Officer Class on Apple and you won't ever need to listen to another commercial from us, our sponsors, ever again.

Or even better, join the Patreon for more stuff.

We have our new website, WorldWar2headquarters.com, which we'd like you to pop over to if you want, where there's all sorts of Second World War stuff.

And of course, we have Waves Festival, 12th to the 14th of September this year, where we'll be talking about this and much else besides.

And we'll all be able to raise a glass to that victory 80 years ago in 1945.

Thanks very much for listening.

It's Cheerio from me, and it's goodbye from him.

Cheerio.

Bye.

Mike and Alyssa are always trying to outdo each other.

When Alyssa got a small water bottle, Mike showed up with a four-litre jug.

When Mike started gardening, Alyssa started beekeeping.

Oh, come on.

They called a truce for their holiday and used Expedia Trip Planner to collaborate on all the details of their trip.

Once there, Mike still did more laps around the pool.

Whatever.

You were made to outdo your holidays.

We were made to help organize the competition.

Expedia, made to travel.