Charlie Sheen

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Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert.

I'm Dan Shepard.

I'm joined by Lily Padman.

Hi.

I am fucking so excited to bring this episode to everybody.

This was

what an episode.

It was incredible.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my god, if you haven't watched this doc or read this book, you must do it.

Have you finished the doc?

Not yet, you haven't.

Oh, I'm so jealous.

I'd be like, I know, I'm so excited to start it, especially after this podcast.

And I was like, oh my God.

First of all, I love him.

Yeah.

And

he is so fucking

likable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Charlie Sheen is an award-winning actor, two and a half men, platoon, Ferris Builders Day off, Wall Street, Spin City.

He has a new memoir out called The Book of Sheen, as well as the uh docuseries on netflix aka charlie sheen all of it's great and this episode is outrageous please enjoy charlie sheen

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We were just discussing string cheese.

String cheese.

Did you get one where you offered one?

I was offered one, and it turned into a thing.

Oh, what was the thing?

I said, that'll be the last time, first and last time, that I'm offered a string cheese.

And she said, maybe all year.

That's a good prediction.

We're in September.

And Christmas and string cheese aren't natural bedmates.

No, no.

Never seem to spread and there was like a platter of string cheese, right?

There should be.

Oh my god.

ABR, we're always recording.

My shirt, even.

See that?

yes yes

stands for always be recording i see okay okay you know what it's a play on obviously you're a cinephile abr always be recording okay where do you think we got that

glenary glamorous oh oh i was gonna say the cia

that's a good guess

always be closing remember abc always be closing okay for sure i remember that so it's just a play on that that's all they didn't say that in glengarry no they didn't say abr no that always be closing okay yeah yeah yeah got it okay cool first i want to start with i haven't seen you in a bazillion years oh my gosh right yes and i want to say if memory serves it was

when you lived in a neighborhood i knew a guy who lived in your neighborhood was sober who hosted a meeting okay believe him out of it yeah yeah yeah yeah but i went to his meeting at his house and i do believe i met you there once or twice and then maybe another house meeting once or twice but it's been decades was this person in the house that my brother used to live in with Paula Abdul?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Abroad from Shaquille.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, that's exciting.

But there was the other meeting in Bel Air.

In Bel Air.

So that's Tom Hansen, who's my best friend.

Okay.

He would host that.

Is it still going on?

No, during COVID, it went away.

Then it went to Zoom.

And then another friend kind of started hosting it in a smaller configuration.

I got you.

But regardless, can I tell you, the funniest thing is I kind of met you at this meeting and I somehow was aware of which house yours was in that neighborhood.

And I remember there was a period where you stopped coming to the meeting.

And I just remember on Tuesday nights, as I would drive by your house en route to this meeting, I'm like, I doubt that guy's coming.

What's happening in that house?

And then I would drive out and I would just be like, I wonder what's happening in there.

Yeah.

No one ever came and knocked and was like, come on over.

The only knocks that I would get occasionally were guys carrying badges.

You know,

investigating cars that had been.

How about that?

How about that thing?

Wow.

Yeah, I need more info on that.

I do too.

And literally to this day, everyone still thinks I was a popular.

Some kind of an insurance fraud.

Based on like.

I know you had plenty of money.

You know what I'm saying?

And I loved the car.

Yes.

So Monica hasn't seen the doc, nor has she read the book.

On purpose, because I need to act as the audience.

The audience might not know what you're talking about.

So let's get some more deets.

Yeah, so you had this beautiful S-Class Mercedes.

Correct, yeah.

This was on the news, and this was during like things are starting to become pretty wild, right?

A little bit.

There's simmering.

There's a simmer, yes, indeed.

And also on the news, they're like, Charlie Sheen's Mercedes was stolen and driven into a ravine.

Yeah.

Oh.

Off of Mulholland.

Off of Mulholland.

400 feet down this ravine in the dead of night.

Wow.

And I was

up to no good that night.

And I see the phone ring and it says Mercedes-Benz something.

Taylor Schiffer's on your head.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, I'm sure the airbags deployed and they were probably calling to see if you were dead.

Right.

So, I'm high out of my mind.

It was the first night I ever ventured into a paid chat thing.

What is that called?

Like a web thing.

Oh, okay, okay.

Right?

Like a little bit of a new only fans typey.

Before that, yeah, when it was still.

A little chat room, but maybe I had to pay.

A loveline with video.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Got it.

Yeah.

Somewhere maybe in Sweden.

I don't know.

Okay.

And I was waiting and waiting and waiting.

And I see the countdown.

And I got a minute to go.

Right.

And Mercedes called.

And I've been waiting for like an hour.

And I pick up, I'm like, hello?

And they're like, are you okay, sir?

I'm like, in a minute, I'll be better.

I'm impatient.

Is that what the alarm said?

I guess.

So she's okay.

Your airbag just deployed.

I said, well, that's weird because my car's in my driveway.

Right.

And she said, sir, is there anybody you could stay on the phone with me and let me know if your car's in your driveway?

It was a stationary phone.

I said, no, but I'll leave it off the thing.

I'll run down there and I'll come back.

Yeah.

And I come down there and it was one of those things where you think your mind is playing a trick on you.

The car's just gone.

Yes.

Then I'm like, oh, shit, the kids, right?

I run and check on the kids.

They're still there.

They got the car.

Did they get the kids?

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, but they were with the nanny and I got back on the phone.

I said, the car is gone.

And she's like, okay, do you want to report it?

I'm like, I mean, maybe not right this minute.

I'll call you back.

Exactly.

So this whole thing that took maybe seven minutes.

As I'm still on with her, the doorbell rings.

I'm like, oh, shit, hold on.

I mean, let me call you back.

And I run down.

I'm in a in a robe.

I'm sweating, hair, eyes, the whole thing, right?

And I open the door and there's two cops.

Oh, geez.

Just that you want to see.

Yeah.

And I'm in a robe.

And I'm like,

hi,

how can I help you?

And they said, first of all, we're glad you're okay.

We need to just take a look at your body.

I'm not in the best shape at the time, but they asked me to like lift the robe and they're looking at my legs.

So I start putting it together.

They wanted to see if there were like scratches or cuts or dirt or branches.

Yes.

That you had dumped.

Yeah, I drove it and then ran from the scene.

Climbed up the canyon 400 feet through dense foil and stuff.

Not to mention what injuries you would have sustained.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Maybe I thought you pushed it off.

Or just drove it off and then didn't want to get to DU off.

Right, exactly.

And the timeline was so compressed, there's no way I could have made it up there.

I mean, that would have taken at least, what?

20 minutes?

No, that would have been an hour.

Even in great shape.

Yeah.

Oh, wait.

But then I would have had to sprint down Moholland like two miles back to my house.

You would have needed an accomplice, somebody else that would have driven you back.

Right.

Or that owned a helicopter.

You know, what are we doing?

Yeah.

But it was the weirdest thing because I had a chevron card.

Remember, we used to have gas cards to the specific gas station.

Mobile shell.

Yeah.

I took a chevron card that was used later on that same night.

And they had video of the guy using it.

And the cops showed up like a few days later and they played it for me.

The guy had a limp.

It was like right out of the movies, right?

And my brain wanted to latch on to a memory that it couldn't come to terms with.

It was the strangest thing.

And I felt that if I could be hypnotized, that I would know who that was.

Because the limp was such a giveaway.

You'd be like, well, I'd remember a man with a limp.

Yes.

It was like one cell from closure or connection.

But if I get hypnotized, then I can't be used as a witness in a case, correct?

I don't know.

Doesn't that disqualify somebody?

I've never heard of it.

Do we have a research team?

Yeah, we do a fact check after this, so I will be looking it up.

That's true.

Okay, I think that's a thing.

But then it was a show night, so I still had to like somehow get a couple hours' sleep, learn some dialogue.

And you never connected with the gale in Sweden, I can't imagine.

I did not.

I did not.

So this is kind of a love-loss story.

Then when I got to the stage, you know, there's Chuck Lori and Lee Aaronston.

They're kind of looking at me because we had to push the run-through back like an hour or two hours.

And it's now all over the news, correct?

It is everywhere.

It is everywhere.

And so they looked at me in a way kind of like, so what happened?

And it wasn't like, hey, man, are you okay?

No way.

You lost that right.

Yeah.

Well, you burned that up a while ago.

Instantly guilty when I walked in.

But that's one of the costs of being an act is you lose benefit of the doubt.

You do?

Yeah.

Which is reasonable.

A little bit.

Yeah, but if you just break down the mechanics

of what would be required to pull that off, if I had pulled it off, I'd be bragging about that like this many years later.

Exactly.

Yes.

It would take a normal man 20 minutes to go up the hill and I was up in eight.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Now, do you get defensive in those moments when he's like, so what happened?

Instantly.

But I've gotten better over the years.

Yeah.

We just had an expert on yesterday, and he was saying one of the things that humans respond most severely to is being accused of something they didn't do.

Yes.

And he kind of said, how do you feel about that?

And I said, well, I hate it with the irony of I've gotten away with so much stuff.

That you did, did you?

Like, and then the time I get pulled over sober, and the guy's like, How many drinks do you have tonight?

I'm like, I haven't drank since 19, you know, right, right, right, right, and damn.

Did you forget the fact that I got away with it so many times?

Wow.

Okay, now the punchline to the story, Monica.

Okay, if I have this right, is that's not the only time this car was

put in.

Same car?

No,

it was

a round.

Yeah, I replaced it with the identical cars.

I love that car, you know, and it happened again.

I don't even know the time frame that it's connected to.

It literally happened again.

And this time it also wasn't you?

It still wasn't me.

Because I can see the second time it being like, let me just see if I could do it.

Right, right.

Now I want to do it because I already paid the price.

Right.

And now I know what they're looking for.

Yeah, exactly.

I can get away with it this time.

What a trick.

One thing that can't really happen in one person's lifetime is that you're going to push the door and then it happened a second time.

Why would I have left the keys in that second car again?

Yeah.

That's the moron in the story moment that I'll own.

When the guy came to the door, I thought it was a gag the second time.

Yeah.

Of course.

Because there's a gunman named Eddie Braun.

He's been my stunt double for like a thousand years and he does that kind of shit.

Pranks.

Yeah.

Elaborate shit like that.

Working on pranks.

Exactly.

That involve usually vehicles.

And the cop's there.

And it's so surreal.

Yeah, I'm really suspicious.

And I'm like, did Ed put you up to this?

Are you a friend of Eddie B?

Yeah.

And he's like, I don't know an Eddie B.

It was a repeat.

I need to take a look at your body.

Can you imagine if you're the cop, you get the call and say, it's Charlie Sheen's cars are

again?

I saw that on the news.

And then you go up there and he has a room.

Are you buddies with Eddie B?

I would be like, this is

on another planet.

That's so funny.

Both of you are having the exact same experience.

The cop is like, what?

And you are like, what?

Everyone's having the exact same experience.

So wild.

Madness.

Whoever did that.

Kind of kudos because that is sort of funny.

Oh, wait.

I'm sorry.

If I'm not mistaken, the Chevron card was left in the second vehicle.

Oh, yes, that happened.

Okay.

So that was spooky.

That was a message.

Do you think it was the same person?

Well, they would have had to had it.

Oh, you're saying the original

Chevron

was left in the center console of the second car that was pushed over.

What?

Yeah.

So it's like they're sending a message.

No,

that's when it crossed over into just creepier terrain, you know,

not cool.

Am I wrong in that there was some suspicion that the second go-around was someone that you had maybe been partying with that evening who decided to take your car, not someone on the real inner circle?

Right, right, right.

No, that's a good hypothesis.

Again, I don't mean to accuse the city.

Not at all.

Not at all.

No.

We do end up with some folks we wouldn't otherwise end up with, we would agree.

Many of them.

Yeah, in droves.

No, I think that was a pretty Han Solo night as well.

Yeah.

Okay.

There's no funny business.

No, but that one didn't get nearly as much press because people were like, oh, my God.

God.

They were like, if we run this story, people will think they're watching a rerun of the news.

Exactly.

Yeah, we can't put it up.

And they would just use the same copy and just change the date, right?

And I'd

save a bunch of work.

Save the car.

You wouldn't even send the fucking camera crew, the B-roll team.

Yeah, no.

Isn't that crazy?

Yeah.

And here's the thing.

I think people get a sense of me at this point, especially with the book and the doc.

And I've been really forthcoming with, hey, man, here's everything.

I think they have to assume that by now, I would say, okay.

I'm going to set the record straight.

That whole Mercedes thing,

I wish I had like the coolest story ever to explain what the motivation was, what my goals were.

You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, like, why would you keep just this thing still secret?

Okay.

Devil's advocate moment?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I first say 100%, I think this is all what happened.

Okay, thank you.

Additionally, certainly you and I have had some moments where you like wake up and you're seeing some things and some clues and some evidence you were trying to put together.

This happened to me.

I woke up and my fucking ribs were so sore.

I'm like, what is, and I'm missing a day.

And then I'm like, oh, I'm in a lot of pain.

And I go outside and I see my my harley is laying on the ground on its side oh and i'm like okay so i think i decided to go for a motorcycle ride clearly i didn't make it out of the parking stall thank god i guess this rib stuff is me i guess trying to pick it up for a while maybe is that what i damn And you can't find the motive at some point.

You do do things where they defy the sober brain to understand what the goal was in that moment because you can get fixated on an insane goal that doesn't make any sense in the light of day.

Yeah.

So I believe a thousand percent.

And it's not hard for me to imagine one iota how you convinced yourself you didn't need to push the second card to the different.

That would be hilarious.

Oh my gosh.

Just the energy involved.

Yeah.

It's got to be that high.

See yourself like up day three and thinking somehow that that will set the record straight.

But how?

Like how does that

how does it close that stream?

Some people on drugs are not really doing hows often.

That's my point.

It's like, yes, you and I now know that that would in no way right this injustice.

Right, right, right.

But I do know that there have been moments in my level of intoxication where I would think, I got to set the record straight and push my car off this thing.

Interesting.

Interesting.

That's a thought I could have.

I just genuinely, I don't think I had the energy.

No, no.

You know what I'm saying?

I don't either.

Gosh, that is just exhausting.

I mean, I've never pushed a car off a cliff.

I assume it's an exhausting.

The other thing is, don't you think someone would drive by and see a man pushing in a bathrobe?

Take a wire.

In a bathrobe.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The first one, they used my car as the mule to then drive around the whole neighborhood and hit all the garages.

Oh, they did?

And see what they could filter.

Yeah.

And then they also took some stuff from my place they thought was valuable and they grabbed this one box and it was all these VHS tapes, like 25 episodes of Spin City on VHS.

Jeff Ballard, R.I.P., God rest him.

My publicist of 30 years said, Hey, let's get these transferred one day.

I'm like, Yeah, I'll get to that whenever.

And they stole the box of Spin City VHS and they were dumped on Moho and like in the middle of the road.

Like, no.

It's a weird way to tell a guy we didn't like that show.

Yeah, we were.

They might have been really excited about the box of VHS tapes.

Maybe they even thought they were adult films.

And then someone popped open the thing in the back and said, That's fucking Spin City.

We've been having outlives.

The comment's been too heavy to push.

Without it, so it was like we got to start shedding stuff.

That's what I'm saying.

I didn't do it, but I am getting

a sense of how your mind works.

It's a trip.

Yeah.

This is a beautiful pairing.

Wow.

She's a nice mix of like presents nice, but could kill if necessary.

She's necessary.

Good.

I'm getting behind you if you're sideways.

I will say this.

Monica started out with Kristen and I as a babysitter 10 years ago.

Oh, wow.

This got elevated to she was Kristen's assistant.

And then one of the very first things somehow we made her do or Kristen made her do was people were coming over to look at a duplex we just bought to rent.

Okay.

And she goes in with this couple and the couple says, where's the washer and dryer and refrigerator?

Which they had seen on the previous trip over.

So someone had broken into this duplex and stolen all of the appliances.

Wow.

And I'm finding out real time with the people who, you know, I'm trying to sell it to, basically.

And she's 27.

I was like, oh,

they weren't very good.

So we're replacing them.

And we're going to go to the corner.

Like in the moment, I was so proud of myself.

So you didn't make the place look like it was a prime spot for crime.

Exactly.

Because you wouldn't want to go move into a place where everything was just stolen.

Right, right, right.

And so she calls me and says that duplex was robbed.

There's no appliances.

And I was showing the people and I go, well, what'd you say?

And she goes, I told them you were upgrading them.

And I literally went, click, like you're invited to be around forever.

You know how to handle shit when it goes sideways.

This is a very valuable quality.

Wow.

You got to think on yourself.

That was a big moment for us, whether you realize it or not.

A valuable and a rare quality.

A very rare.

Thinking on their feet, lying to their face.

I feel bad.

There's nothing to feel bad about.

They did get better of playing this.

What if they got robbed?

They didn't.

It's never happened again.

Well, I know because we still

are.

Okay.

They're still there.

We know.

I don't think they're still there that was a decade ago oh yeah it was a long yeah yeah it'd be great if they were still there they love it so much yes i would love to think that that's what it was there's something i've been carrying around for like how long ago was the tom meeting in bel air 21 years ago okay i was a dick to you one night oh yeah like not cool like an asshole 5000 tell me because it's so bizarre i don't remember that the next day or the next week or the next month i was like i gotta make that right and here we are 20 years later.

It's lovely.

Zero, zero.

It was Halloween.

Okay.

And we were sharing Halloween with super tiny children is not fun.

It's just not.

I mean, it is and it isn't.

It's fun for the photo on the fridge later.

It's just the whole effort.

It's effortful.

A lot of crime in general.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Scary monsters are everywhere.

I was kind of in a pissy mood in my share, and I was bitching about Halloween and just zero gratitude about anything, you know, and then a couple people later, he started sharing, I don't think you had kids yet, right?

No, no, no, no, no.

He's like, yeah, no, we had a great time.

Went to a couple of parties this end and you were like giving like the fun version of Halloween

in the middle.

I said, try it with fucking kids, dude.

And it was so inappropriate and unnecessary and uncalled for.

So 20 years later, apologies.

Oh, apologies.

No problem.

Sorry about that.

Do you find this to be the case?

I have found this numerous times.

Now, look, there's a lot of people I've made amends to.

Thank God I did.

And they were really hurt.

And that repair had to happen.

More often than not, I've called people and said,

you know, I did this and I did that.

And they're like, I didn't give a fuck.

Right.

But I'm living with this notion that this person fucking hates me over it and they felt betrayed by it.

I do think that's an interesting part of making amends is like you've built up a lot of it in your mind that isn't really there.

It's because you're holding it.

They weren't.

Yeah.

We've sort of decided the level of trauma for them

that they've been carrying as a result of our behavior.

And we're not even that important in their life.

Exactly.

But that's what apologies are, though.

They are for you.

They're because you don't like the way you behaved.

It doesn't match your values or who you want to be.

So that's what it's about more than the person.

But I do think the process of making those teaches you crystal clear, oh, you only carry your own mistakes, really.

You don't really carry other people all that much.

Sure.

You just go like, yeah, that person's whatever.

But what haunts you and gives you shame and tortures you is your mistakes.

And I think that has given me some grace in times where people are, in my opinion, wronging me.

And I go like, oh, yeah, I'm a little upset today, but I will not think about this in eight years trying to fall asleep.

And that person will.

And I don't want that for them.

And I actually feel bad in this moment because that's it.

You're accumulating those things.

Yeah.

The second that this was put on the schedule.

And thank you.

It's an honor to be here.

Oh, yeah.

I was like, oh, cool.

I get to clear up that thing from like two decades ago.

Yeah, but you know what's great is a testament to, and I thought this a million times while watching the documentary.

I was like, the guy's just so fucking likable.

Oh, thank you.

You're beyond that.

You're likable.

You're lovable.

Thank you.

And it's funny because a million different people could have said that in a meeting, and I would have wanted to fight him afterwards.

But I just think your likability

and maybe even flattered that you are addressing me.

I grew up, you know, I'm 10 years younger than you.

It's not like I wasn't a fan of yours as a kid.

I was.

So I'm like,

get out of here.

The dude from Platoon just told me to shut up about dueling kids.

That's great.

Wow.

It also sounds kind of like a joke.

Like maybe I would just think that was funny.

People certainly laughed.

Right.

I would have said it with a little bit of a chuckle, though.

Oh, here's a jazz.

Yeah.

Here's sour grapes, man.

Yeah.

Okay, so I absolutely love the dock.

I've told so many people on here.

And I'll tell you the accomplishment I think of it is in full honesty, I come in for a lot of different things.

Like, A, I've met you a couple of times.

B, I kind of want to rubberneck.

I want to hear some great fucking drug stories because I'm a junkie too and I like those.

Right.

And I'm totally served that up in a very delicious way.

And then it ends in the most satisfying and heartwarming and beautiful way that I'm like, my God, this thing worked on every level.

Like I'm really emotional at the end.

Wow.

I just moved beyond belief.

It had everything I could want.

It's spectacular.

Oh, right on.

Thank you.

And then I'm two-thirds of the way through the book.

I'm listening to you.

Okay, good.

Are you getting a sense that the book is telling stories in a different way or filling in some blanks from stories in the dock?

Absolutely.

The ones that overlap.

There's a ton more in the book.

Right.

And I want to compliment you.

I'll be honest with you.

While I'm listening to it, I'm like, who did he get to write this book?

I thought, oh, you know what?

He probably got one of the sitcom writers that wrote for him and really knew how to write in his voice.

Because, you know, these great writers, they do that they learn your voice and they can write

it yeah and it's so funny i thought yeah that's what happened that's how he sourced this ghostwriter or collaborator or whatever right right and then i was reading the interview with you and amelio an interview today and learned that you actually wrote the whole thing i did i was so impressed because a it's just a very well constructed and formatted book.

Like the structure of it's great.

It's solid, but your authentic voice is there every sentence.

Amazing.

Which is hard to do.

That's great writing when you can infuse your actual voice onto the page.

Wonderful compliment.

Thank you.

It's great.

It's really, really cool.

No, that's really cool.

Yeah, they tried to put me with a ghostwriter, which, rightfully so, you know, with my history or my past or however people perceive me,

says, I'm going to write a book.

And they're like, well,

it's an investment they need to protect.

Right.

Like, we think you need to work with someone.

And I was like, that's a deal breaker.

Yeah.

There was like an audition phase for a certain

amount of chapters.

Yeah.

And then they finally, there was that one day where they're like, let's just leave him alone.

Let's let him keep going.

That's a testament to Jen Bergsterman, Amy Bell, and my team at Schuster.

They just went, okay.

Good.

Were you typing or handwriting?

I was handwriting my notes, but typing the actual chapters in the manuscript.

And I don't type well.

A speed typist.

I type pretty fast, but I type with four fingers pretty fast.

Right, okay.

I can't.

What do they call it?

Yeah, that.

Home, home.

I don't know.

It's called something.

My son Bob is like 180 words a minute.

It's insane.

Why?

It's all from gaming.

Oh, from TV.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I was like, how do you get like a nice paying job

with that kind of time?

With that skill.

You get in a time machine, go back to 1981.

Exactly.

And put them on someone's desk.

He could be a secretary.

But, okay, as I think about how do I get.

your life into this interview in some way.

Really, it's impossible.

There's so much stuff.

It's crazy.

I I mean, I really could do five hours on all the things that I learned in that doc, but I guess there were kind of some thematic things that I wanted to go through.

And also, I hope they told you the dude is like wide open, or they probably said, stay away from this shit.

No one said anything.

Okay, good.

But I know because we're both in a program that we won't help ourselves, even if that was the game plan.

Yeah.

But my thing is like, well, hold on.

I put it not just in a documentary.

Yeah.

I put it in a book that I wrote.

Right.

If you do that, you better be willing to talk about all of it.

Great.

So that's one of my first questions because I have at times written things, then put them out there.

And the writing, it's fine because I'm in total control and I'm in my room.

And then I get to decide what gets published.

But once it leaves my barn,

don't you have this like, well, I had control and now I don't have it.

Oh, yeah.

I went through that.

It was a powerful moment, though.

Yeah, it's scary, right?

It's going to be scary.

And then I made a decision.

I can either stay backpedaling, I can be on my heels, or I could just lean into it.

Right.

I had to lean into it to hit send, right?

Yeah.

And I'm not like a lean in kind of guy just by nature.

I'm always sort of like, hey, let's talk about this.

Yeah.

But I think that was kind of a cool moment to break through.

Release.

Yeah.

Like, all right, what happens next?

I could say it's none of my business because it is and it isn't.

The part about how it's perceived is none of my business.

Right.

But then it's made my business when I have to talk about it and promote it.

Totally.

Correct.

Yes.

And have you found that some of the stuff is much harder to say out loud than it was to type out?

It was in the first couple interviews.

And then I caught a snippet of one because I don't really watch a lot of stuff, but I did catch a clip off of Good Morning America with Michael Strahan, who's amazing.

I'm sure you know Michael, right?

I've been on the show and met him, but I don't know him personally.

But he's pretty good.

He's a great dude.

Yeah.

And so we got into some stuff.

I caught like a little section, like a YouTube short, I think, of it.

Right.

And I didn't look confident.

And I thought, okay, I saw that for a reason, just accidentally flipping past other shit, right?

I needed to know that.

Yeah.

And I was like, okay, all right, let's change that.

If I'm uncomfortable, what's the audience doing?

Yeah, it's contagious.

They're crying,

dude, really?

Oh, shit.

Okay.

He looks like he doesn't want to do this.

And I can't enjoy it if he doesn't want to do this.

Right.

Right.

They're just waiting for me to tell him another apocalypse story.

So of the things that we have in common, we have the addiction thing.

I want to say I've gone really, really hard.

I've gone harder than most of my peers did that I partied with.

And I was really, really, really shown a whole nother level in the dock.

I didn't think I'd ever hear someone's story and go like, he's got it worse than I do.

Right.

You mean the amount?

The amount, the duration.

There's periods where his dealer, who goes hard as fuck, they've been smoking crack for three days.

The dealer's got to go home and go to sleep.

He comes back in a couple of days.

Charlie's still at it from a couple days ago.

More people have

shown up with less and less.

I don't know how to say it nicely.

Yeah.

Composed.

I always say this.

I was weirdly, you do have some inconsistent things as an addict where it's like you're doing one thing, but then you kind of have this virtue.

My thing was I always checked in with my girlfriend.

I didn't want her to worry.

So it'd be like, I was supposed to come on at two, girl, ring at two.

Hey, I'm going over this hotel.

These guys have just met here, you know?

And then I would call her at six.

Now I'm in a different motel.

Now it's a motel.

Now I'm with six dudes that are even worse than the previous one.

And she would go like, you don't have to

date me, you know?

Okay, i just don't want you to worry about me even though what i'm telling you is i'm with worse and worse people at worse and worse places you're delivering very worsening

car and goes because dave lives in san diego it's like what the hell yes so

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But in addition to the addict stuff, I see so much of your story in your life being really impacted by being a little brother.

Do you think so?

When you like dig into what all's going on, no one has really pointed that out or latched onto that.

It was just the proximity of being just within arm's reach of his really fast, like meteoric fame rise with that group.

And then making peace with that.

Like, how am I a loser and wanting to be as cool and be invited and be included over here?

And then over here, I'm like the person people want to be included by.

You're kind of dualistic just by the dynamic you're born in.

For me, that's how it was.

Sure.

I experienced a lot of that.

Inferiority and superiority complex working throughout my whole childhood.

Right.

And like from one hour to the next.

I wasn't like, oh, last week I was a badass.

And then the following week, I sucked.

Yeah.

And I was the valet or the sad puppy dog tagging along.

Well, was your brother the golden child or was everyone?

Emilio, he was great in school.

He always had a very cute girlfriend.

Ramon, who's between Emilio and myself, marched to a different beat.

He was a punk rocker searching for some identity somewhere in the mix of all of it.

And then we got, of course, dad leading the charge.

You know, I've grown up.

on his sets and watching his successes and failures.

And then my sister Renee is below me.

But there's a weird point in the year where we're all exactly two years apart.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, there's a line in the book about when I went to junior high, which is now middle school, right?

And I said it was being exposed to that many girls with all these hormones.

It was either the coolest thing ever or the meanest joke ever played on me.

And then I said, only skin clarity will tell

because think about it, right?

You start breaking out.

It's over.

It's a wrap.

It is a rat.

That's horrible.

Yeah.

Wow.

It's so hard to be aware.

But you were always quite cute.

You were kind of blessed with being pretty darn cute.

Thank you.

I did have a bad year and a half.

And somehow this summer, like right before I wanted to audition and give this thing a shot professionally, it just magically cleared up.

It's like I willed it.

Yeah.

How old?

What age were you?

Like 17.

Wow.

But what I'm going to try to put on you and project onto you is I imagine you got very comfortable in these very big swings.

Status quo was these kind of huge swings.

I even imagine now I wasn't the child of anyone famous, but I have children.

And I do think about this sometime.

It's like they move through the world with us and they're with mom and dad and everyone knows mom and everyone wants to cater to mom.

And I mean, do you guys want to sit over there?

They're experiencing life in a very privileged and bizarre way.

And then when they're not with us and they step outside of it, they resume civilian life, which is no one wants to help you.

Like, go fucking ask the other guy, right?

Like, that's life on planet Earth.

Sure.

These radical shifts in the dynamics and what your experience can be.

I feel like it almost could hardwire you for how absolutely dramatic your life was, ultimately.

Interesting.

You mean to be either Martin Sheen's son or Emilio's brother in their presence, but on my own, piece of shit,

third dude from the rear.

Yeah.

And then you get your own.

So it's like, now I'm this heightened thing, but I'm familiar with it because it's how I'm treated on set.

Marlon Brando, this motherfucker's having lunch with Marlon Brando on Apocalypse No.

as a kid.

As an 11-year-old.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's crazy.

And I remember it so vividly.

Wow.

Yeah.

And not even like knowing what he was.

Well, no, knowing enough, but not the breadth of his genius.

The weight of it.

All the weight of it.

Yeah.

What you had to have clocked was that I'm sure your dad probably acted in a way around him.

He probably didn't act around anybody.

Like, oh shit, my dad worships this team.

Yes.

He was one of dad's inspirations to become an actor.

But you talk about those big swings that I seem to just roll with it.

Yeah, yeah.

I think a lot of that was that really none of it was planned.

I never sat down.

I was like, okay, I'm going to do a project that looks like this.

And if that one goes a certain way, that'll probably open the door to do this other thing.

And then, okay, and if that works out, then I've done those two things.

And then obviously the third thing makes perfect sense.

None of that ever.

It was like just getting a script.

Okay, wow, this is a world that I'm excited by.

This is a character I think I could pull off, not even Excel.

Pull off.

Yeah.

So what's the messaging behind that?

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying?

Keep them fooled is the messaging.

The imposter thing was part of it.

I better make the most of this because that day will come when they find out.

Yeah, when they knock on the door, they're here for your SAG card.

Or you're told that, yeah, we figured it out now.

And here's the only stuff you're qualified for, which is the chatter the whole time.

You know, at some point, they're going to stick me over on something that isn't all this great, big, cool stuff.

We've interviewed 500 actors at this point.

Wow.

455 of them have imposters.

And they have imposter syndrome without Emilio as their older brother and without Martin as their father.

So your level of it, I have to imagine, is probably pretty fucking extreme.

It's probably a little more than the average bear is what you're saying.

But I guess that could have gone either way or worked in my favor or against me in that I don't want to say I had something to prove, but the bars were set pretty high.

But also the fruits.

that I saw connected to matching some of those achievements, that was a big part of it as well.

Well, I would imagine the seminal moment is like your your brother has joined kind of the brat pack you write in the book about going out on hollywood boulevard with judd and rob and rob lowe and your brother and the woman that was there i'm trying to remember melissa gilbert was there to me more was there

yeah andrew mccarthy was there yes and you and chris penn are also there but you're in the exact same boat yeah you're the little brothers and you're the little brothers you're there but you're also not there like you know if the doorman doesn't see your brother nod that you're coming in.

They're going to lock it as we step up.

This really confusing, I would imagine, bit of privilege and then also feeling less than all the time.

Sure.

It's like you're having more than 98% of the people, but also even in that spot, you're feeling way less than forced.

For resentment, was there any?

Because I feel like that's a breeding ground for resentment.

That would come at the end of the night.

When everybody went home with someone

and I went home with either Chris

or just me.

And Chris and I would sit up late at night like, okay, what are we doing wrong, man?

What's missing from this?

And he was like, idiot, the big hit movie.

Yeah.

What's wrong with you?

I'm like, yeah, you're right.

Okay.

Okay.

How do we make that happen?

Right.

And then Chris like did.

He was footloose.

And suddenly he was the toast of the town.

Sean saw a screening.

I remember I was at his house or my parents.

And I remember him walking in and saying, holy shit, Chris is going to be a star.

Wow.

He just like proclaimed it.

He announced it.

It was really a cool moment.

Yeah.

And I'm inclined to believe Sean.

Yeah, me too.

If If there's someone whose opinion I might value in that space, it would probably be his.

Yeah, yeah, he just, you take his word just because it's a safer thing to do.

I talk about in the book, I said, Chris and I were oarsmen in the same unknown boat.

Now I'm rowing that thing alone.

Yes.

And then Chris and I were still making super eight films, even after Footloose.

But he had worked on this Vietnam Office for like 10 years.

And now that he had gobs of money, he was hiring like special effects crews.

Oh, wow.

They were still filming with with a tiny camera and he's blowing up this river and i was the dp and i'm literally trying to frame out uh colossus at magic mountain because we were at that place what's that place called in santa clarita yeah it's like indian something or other behind magic mountain okay he got a permit to blow up the river oh wow and everybody was in full fatigues with m16s oh my gosh he took it to like this crazy level

and then he continued to shoot on eight millimeter yeah yeah and just kind of kept me there as the dv and i'm filming craig t nelson eric stoltz sean emilio leon robinson oh my god there was like a whole craig he was in those yeah do you know him i was on a show with him for six years and i love him yeah

he was lovely so then i was exposed to it or in the presence of it and still not on their side of the camera yes

it can be maddening Yes, I think, Chris, I'm pretty sure I could do more than that.

Get rid of collagen.

Yeah.

Those were moments along the way that did inspire and get just that chip on your shoulder problem.

Yeah.

And the fire.

The fire and the fever and all of it.

You knew you were creating wreckage.

You knew you were scaring people that loved you.

Sure.

At what age?

When is this starting?

You're an addict from the jump.

Yeah.

I mean, you're pretty much.

Yeah, but there were long breaks.

Right.

It sounds like you got pretty in line to work, as it did I.

Sure.

But the time I would give myself as it progressed would shrink.

And I'm like, all right, I'm going to need two months in my 20s.

I would commit to it and show up shining like a new dime, right?

Yeah.

And then I was like, ah, that's a three-week prep.

Right.

That one, no problem.

And then that turns into, all right, so it's Friday.

We're shooting on Monday.

Yeah.

My call time is five.

Yeah.

I've got to shut it down by 11 p.m.

Oh my God.

The math we get into.

Oh my God.

And the negotiations.

Once you pass 10 p.m., the amount of math that starts happening is

a class I never attended.

Yeah, no, it's nuts.

And then I have this thing about the speed of the time, the rate at which it vanishes from like 1 a.m.

to 6.

I think it's like a hundred times faster than 9 p.m.

to say midnight.

Couldn't agree more.

Even when they have fantasies, as I do, because I'm an addict, of how I could use successfully, my conclusion is I just needed to start at 10 a.m.

There you go.

If I just started at 10 a.m.

I probably could have made it to sleep by

for the 5 a.m.

call, which is doable.

It got to the point during anger management where I was taking the 15-minute reset nap just to hypnotize myself or meditate into a place of, okay, none of that happened.

I know what's in front of me.

I can pull this off.

They'll know something's up, but they won't know to the extent of how high it's up.

I will nap at lunch.

You're kind of problem-solving.

We are not, right?

You trick yourself into things.

Right.

You've cobbled together something that you think is a solution will you tell her about the time that you're visibly falling asleep on camera yeah i don't know where that came from i think it came probably from some sexual behavior that i'd heard about right

but i'd never done it she's like what the hell no i want to know

i was filming a movie in canada called free money i've been going way too hard And it was like midday and I had this scene in a cafe or a diner and I was trying to get through it.

It wasn't so much about the dialogue, it was about the level of fatigue.

And I thought I was keeping it together.

And the director between takes, he walks up and he says, hey, man, I see you falling asleep on camera.

Oh, my God.

I want to get some tapes.

Yeah.

And I've never done heroin, right?

Right.

And that's like a heroin thing or even Suboxone, which is like contemporary methadone.

Yes.

I'm telling her.

And she's your co-host.

She knows.

She knows.

You don't know.

I do.

I've seen all these drug documentaries I know about them.

And overprescribed everywhere on planet Earth and needs a closer look at that shit, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And so I said, okay, my bad.

I need a cup of ice.

Bring me a cup of ice.

He's like, okay, what do you want to drink?

I'm like, just the ice.

And he's like, okay, I said, give me a minute.

So I go into the bathroom.

I'm like, okay, I've heard about this somewhere else, but for sexual reasons, I'm going to stick an ice cube up my butt.

No.

Yeah.

And I'm pretty sure.

And it was a good size one.

I didn't want it to melt.

That's one of those like big round ones they make.

Like a whiskey thing.

If I see it in the cup, I'm like, no, no, no.

I want a ball-sized piece of ice.

Can you imagine?

Yeah,

and I keistered it like I was sneaking drugs into prison, right?

And was suddenly wide awake because it was so uncomfortable.

Of course.

It was so cold.

Not to mention the coaching you were brought here to keep it in.

Yeah, also the leaking.

Yeah, you're just leaking.

You're now peeing because it melts.

I was in like a conductor's jumpsuit.

The overall thing

tells you the quality of the movie, right?

And I came back to sat and I'm like, let's do this.

You're so serious, man.

Monica, there's footage of these takes in the movie, which is incredible.

Yeah.

And then I've got sort of the melty clock going, right?

Like, how many takes is he going to need?

We got through it.

And I think

after that, I wasn't like, oh, I better go get the ice cube out.

Sure.

Because we've all thought about the perfect crime.

You know, you shoot somebody with an ice cube.

Oh, yeah, you got to get a shot.

And then there's no ballistics.

So I'm like, okay, it's just going to vanish.

There will be no ballistics in this crime scene.

And so we made the day.

When I saw that scene in the dock, I'm like, why didn't they just send me home?

Right.

That guy's not well.

Yeah.

And I'm not passing the bach.

I'm not saying like, oh, shame on them.

But there was like a whole, and I talk about it in the book.

It gets there later on about this string of movies that I did in a state that was directed together.

Charlie, I have directed something where somebody was so fucked up.

that I just had to switch to, okay, how do I get them through this?

They have a ton of dialogue.

Okay, Okay, you're on a phone call.

I'm behind the monitors and I'm seeing every single line and they're repeating them.

And then I come up with another solution in the next thing.

Wow.

You know, I got a million dollars to make a Car Chase movie.

I can't send him home.

I got to get through this.

And what condition was that actor in when you met them for the job?

I had some concerns.

They were a close friend.

And then, even worse, after this terrible day of filming, I said, look, dude, I know exactly what's going on.

Right.

He said, yeah.

So then, probably even worse, he quit cold turkey opiates.

So then for the rest of the movie, I'm dealing with someone deton.

Fuck.

Okay.

I had this experience at a hotel down the street where there was a kid, 21 years old.

His parents are famous.

And that's an understatement, but continue.

Yes.

He would get so fucked up every day.

I'd go there to work and I would see him.

And one day it was so bad.

He was falling over.

He almost knocked his head open.

He was scaring everyone, you know?

know was it booze was it dope i don't know he described it i think he was definitely benzoed out got it okay and drinking overly xannexed and then drinking got it sloppy drinking out would just like fall over and then come back to it was so scary looking to someone who doesn't do that and my friend went up to the bartender and was like dude this guy's not okay oh you were in a public place yes oh i thought you were like at his apartment no we were at a hotel

bar and restaurant got it okay they went up and they were like you know this person is not okay.

And they were like, oh, he's my friend.

He's my neighbor.

It's okay.

And he was like, well, first of all, I know that's not true.

And also, doesn't matter.

He needs help.

Right.

That guy was like, okay, that's a bartender.

What can he do?

Right.

So my friend went to the manager and said, you need to get this person help.

They need to leave.

This is bad.

And they were like, do you know who he is?

And he was like, I don't care who he is.

This is a problem.

But that's the way a lot of people operate, right?

Like, do you know who he is?

We can't kick him out.

We can't tell him anything because he's famous.

Right.

And I think that's what what might have been happening behind the scenes.

People might have been saying, we got to get him home.

But then people are like, well, we can't because it's Charlie.

My whole takeaway from that whole thing was, you guys think you're doing him a favor by not kicking him out?

He needs help.

Right.

And no one's telling him or his parents.

So like, you would have been better off if they had told you to leave instead of letting you continue.

Yes.

It's this six pack of movies that I talk about in the book and just how one was just worse than the last one.

The behavior was identical across all those different sets.

And the only way that I really knew where the hell I was was hotel stationery

or a souvenir from the airplane.

Oh, that's where we're doing that job.

And talk about being untethered.

You're like, you really don't even know where you're at.

I got to believe.

Let's say, okay, the first three were whatever.

And then by number four, it just would have been cool at the first meeting.

They just said, the last place you need to be right now is on a movie set

trying to be responsible.

Yes.

Yes.

And play make-believe.

Because if you have no consequences, why would you stop?

That's the key thing when the consequences are always sort of negotiable.

Right.

Until they're not.

One day they become very not.

Difficult in the moment, but tons of gratitude later that what should have been a stop sign was always yield.

And when it becomes a stop sign, it's there for a reason.

And I think the thing that people are kind of responding to with the dog, which is really cool, and in some ways, the book, they're getting this story from the guy and they shouldn't be.

You should be getting it from an educated narrator.

And it's all archival.

Are you a journalist?

Yeah.

And it's all archival and there's sad music and it's a whole thing.

And it's an if-only story.

And it's not.

And it's cool, right?

I mean, yeah.

Well, I'm sure you have the same agitation when you see how generally recovery gets played in movies by a bunch of people who have no experience with it.

It's like, it's so somber.

Put Charlie and I together and we'll start talking about this carnage.

and it's just because you survived right and it's not happening today you gotta laugh about it like it's just gotta be funny or you would just drowned in the shame of all the shit yeah so you've had a lot of time to reflect i'm suggesting things as part of the recipe right like the fraudulence that's certainly part of it sure what do you think about just how incredibly high the bar was set so quickly.

I also think that's problematic.

You don't graduate high school.

Right.

And I'm going to give acting a shot.

And in a very short time, you're on platoon.

And that's bonkers.

And then you're 21 and the Fengwin's fucking best pitcher.

And I'm watching that broadcast from New York, having just started Wall Street.

And then now the cash and prizes are arriving.

Those are extremely heightened.

Sure.

The people that navigate it, I'm so impressed because it's an untenable level of heightened arousal.

It is.

And at some point, the cash and prizes kind of wear off.

And I think that's where drugs really, I'm supposed to feel elation right now.

I have everything I wanted.

Where's the elation?

Crack gives you elation.

Yeah, it does.

In a way that no part of the job can.

It fills in for the disappointment of the fantasy.

Interesting.

You're in a dangerous spot.

Yeah, that has to be altered.

Medicated.

There's a thing that I always go back to from my own flame outs and then also witnessing the flame outs of others or even just the behaviors from those flame outs or lack of gratitude or just someone's completely shit the bed.

I always ask myself, and I put this on me too, like, okay, when I was building this fantasy as a child, when I saw like the life of a movie star, or I saw it with dad, but my version,

my name and lights, and my successes, then you're in a weird motel with two bikers and four streetwalkers.

Someone's making a meth run, and you're like, wait, I don't do meth.

And you're kind of like, where was that in that whole fantasy package?

You know,

you can't plan that stuff and you can't prepare to avoid it.

You know what?

I just thought of sitting here.

What if they always kept the audition process connected in play, like as a mandatory part of getting a job?

Even if your last film made $100 million.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You make Brad Pitt read.

And you just gotta read if you're a fan of it.

Everybody still has to audition.

Can you imagine?

Yeah.

I mean, people would flip out.

They would never allow it.

Almost all of the fantasy is, oh my God, finally, I won't have to go earn it in this awkward situation.

That's almost the best part of the fantasy.

It is until it isn't.

That's the imposter syndrome.

Yes.

When you're like, oh, shit okay so now they just think because of that thing they saw like i can do this next thing huh now you're just being trusted yes and treated like a commodity of sorts and the first test is on camera and usually with people that you respect

yeah yeah yeah it's like whoa

i think they should also refilm day one Always.

It's like the first pancake.

Yeah.

I think they should make day one two days.

I like that.

Get it out of the way.

Because I'll look at stuff on day day one that I put in the middle of a movie and it's like, oh, Jesus, I wasn't even warm.

I wasn't even warmed.

Yeah, yeah.

I hadn't even moved hotel rooms yet to the one I like.

Exactly.

Still in the one I don't like facing the fire station.

Yeah.

So these are my fixes for Hollywood.

Yeah, I love that.

They're terrible.

Another thing I'm wondering is a lot of the stuff, it came pretty easily.

That's kind of confusing.

It did.

And some of it was just right place, right time.

I mean, think about the Bueller thing.

The Bueller thing's a trip.

And Monica needs a no.

So Jennifer Gray says, hey, come, I want you to be in this movie.

Come meet John Hughes.

Yeah.

And I had worked with Jennifer on Red Dawn.

Got it.

Okay.

She says, hey, there's this one scene.

It's a really cool character.

And I told the director, John Hughes, that you'd be the right guy for the job.

I'm like, wow, thank you.

I think she was dating Matthew Broderick at the time.

She plays the sister.

She's got one of the leads.

Well, you've seen the movie.

Yeah, I love it.

Classic.

So I prepare and I get the scene.

And my brother Ramon, I'm borrowing all of his his punk rock shit to kind of look like that guy.

You're rubbing ashes on your eyes or something.

And I drive all the way down to Long Beach.

I meet John Hughes in the parking lot and I'm expecting him to say, great, okay, so we're going to go over here and we're going to put you on tape.

We'll get back to you.

Like for a year.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And he's on the move.

He's like I describe in the book, a man with a full plate and no time to eat, right?

And so I start walking with him and he's got a couple assistants with him.

He's super busy in the middle of a complicated day.

Shakes my hand, takes me in for two seconds.

Ah, kid, you look great.

We'll see you next week.

Oh, no.

You look great.

We'll see you next week.

You look great.

And I stop and I just kind of watch him keep walk away.

And then the panic sets in.

You don't know if you can do it.

Right.

But are you also like, I'm magic?

It's a rush.

It's probably all things.

It's all things.

Like, I'm sure for your ego, it must be like, oh, my God.

I don't have to do anything.

It's a woe moment, but it's also a God.

If he had at least seen me read it and it was wrong, then at least I got a place to work from.

He had no idea how he was going to play this game.

And by the way, among my favorite things you've ever done.

Thank you.

I mean, you really did the impossible.

You kind of walk away with a big chunk of that movie in one scene.

I mean, they wrote about you in the review saying you were smoldering.

It's just so strange.

Then, okay, so in that week, it's all in the dock and and the book.

Dad and I go down to take part in a TV show.

Oh, this is going to blow your fucking mind.

Actors against athletes, and the card we drew was Michael Jordan.

It's a two-on-one versus Jordan.

It's a three-part competition itself.

It's free throws, a game of horse, and then a two-on-one.

Oh, no.

Wait to hear how it plays out, Monica.

I mean, you want to know or you just want to watch it.

No, I want to know.

I want to know.

He loves Jordan.

We beat him.

No, no, no, no, no.

Not only did he beat him, this is where he has these absolute mythical strokes of magic.

Charlie hit eight free throws in a row.

Did you play basketball?

No, I played baseball, but I shot with dad in the backyard like my whole life growing up.

Hit an 18-foot jumper in the two-on-two to win the game.

This is

not a normal life.

He gets out of treatment.

He's dead.

One of his times getting out of treatment, dad picks him up.

He wants to just watch baseball.

He loves baseball.

They stop by this place and there's grown men playing a game of baseball in a league.

And because they're them, they they all of a sudden they let Charlie take an app back.

First swing, out of treatment, life's over, home run.

Of course you're confused.

Exactly.

Of course you're confused.

You've got like superpowers and then you're superhuman all the time.

I mean, you're extra human and you have superpowers.

This is too much to like be holding all at once.

But on the drive back from the Jordan thing, I've got the scene with me.

On Tuesday or maybe even Monday, I have to report back and do this thing.

Yes.

And so I read it with dad in the limo, just having done the Jordan thing, working on Bueller.

We read it once.

I didn't do anything with it.

And he stopped me and said, that's it.

You've nailed it.

And I was confused.

I was like, I did nothing.

And he said, it took me 30 years to learn how not to do that.

Wow.

So that's kind of what I walked in with.

And I was really hoping that Hughes was going to be okay with this giant, very specific piece of advice.

And he was.

But of course, on the day I overslept and I was two hours late and it was really oh, it was awful.

This is an easy theory to make and I want you to tell me if you think there's anything realistic to this, which is these things come incredibly easy to you and something about the subconscious goes, this isn't right, and we're going to fix it.

And the way we fix it is we're going to destroy it.

Some self-sabotage.

Sure.

But this was, I think, before.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

But there's an inkling of it.

It's like, how were you on time to get the job?

You get the job too easy.

You go win a game with Jordan.

Somehow you can't fucking wake up on time.

That's a good point.

Why can't you wake up on time?

You make it.

You weren't late for the thing.

Yeah, that's late for that.

You know, you got that too easy.

And now we're late.

You have a reason, but it's suspicious.

Yeah, it is suspicious.

Even sitting here today.

It doesn't make sense.

And a lot of your stuff doesn't make sense.

You can't draw it up.

Right.

You can't plan it.

If you feel fraudulent, self-sabotage definitely feeds into that, I think.

If you have imposter syndrome, it's like, I don't really know if I deserve this.

So I'm going to.

I mean, it's all subconscious.

Not if it's conscious, but it's like, I might need to put this really to the test.

Right.

But another extension of that is when you're finally making a bunch of dough, not feeling put on like, oh, now I have to pay for dinner, pay for cars, but wanting to.

Oh, yeah.

I can't wait to.

Wanting to just.

give it away.

Yeah.

Because now they're giving me too much.

I'm being overpaid for what I believe my skill set is actually worth.

Right.

And I got to redistribute this or it'll be totally crazy.

Exactly.

Guilt.

Yeah.

One of the things I didn't know about you that I got so excited to learn in the doc, and this is so frivolous, but my great, great obsession as a child and to this day is Nick Cage.

Oh, wow.

Where'd this guy come from?

What planet did he drop in on?

Nobody knows.

Nobody knows.

But you guys were like best friends, yeah?

Yeah.

And still are tight.

Okay, great.

We just don't see each other enough because he does more movies than anybody alive, doesn't he?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's very prolific.

How does he have the energy?

What a pairing, you two.

Yeah, and we were on this collision course.

We found each other for a reason in the way that we did it was just one of those nights out that i thought would be normal and it was anything but what happened monica you remember that my favorite story of him the plane yeah this is your pilot speaking

i'm not feeling well and i'm losing control of the aircraft yeah wow charlie had an eight ball taped to his leg oh

if it was an eight ball

if it was an eight ball i could have just had it in my breast pocket you know it was a fat bag wow and i didn't want him to take take off my jacket.

And so I was like, oh, I've seen this in movies.

Tape it down here.

Sure.

Yeah, it was just.

Did it work?

It didn't work.

No, it stayed.

It stayed.

It stayed.

I just didn't know we would be encountering federal agents when we landed.

Yes.

Because of the thing that Nick did.

He did that.

Oh, that's what caused the end of the day.

Yeah, we were just travel companions.

We were just entertaining the airplanes.

Oh, yeah.

That's what we're talking about.

Two professional entertainers aboard, right?

Exactly.

We were on the PA, but Nick hadn't gone yet.

There was five of us.

We all took the mic and just said stupid things and got silly laughs.

Right.

And then Nick was last.

And he said, this is your captain speaking.

I'm not feeling well.

I'm losing control of the aircraft.

And the airplane

went on tilt.

Freaked out.

Yeah.

Obviously.

Yeah.

And then the steward walks right up to him and goes, not cool, man.

Yeah.

Not cool.

Which sounds like, Nick, not cool.

Exactly.

Maybe he was trying to find that

common language.

Yeah.

It went from there.

Luckily, they were fans.

Another thing, a yield sign and not a stop sign, right?

Yeah.

The federal agents were fans.

Yeah.

Of his films, of mine.

Yeah.

They're like, all right, all right, let's just make sure you never do this again, guys.

Charlie got to fly an international airplane on the way home from Japan drunk.

Paris.

Paris.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, honeymoon.

Yeah.

It's all in the book and the documentary.

You're so lucky to be alive.

Do you feel that?

I do.

I was having this thought a few times watching it where I was like, man, what is that gap between,

you know, why didn't Nick

blow up?

How can Sean be in the dock, Penn, and he didn't disintegrate?

A lot of us played with fire.

And what is that weird little smidgen between you, Downey?

But then these other guys who certainly were doing a lot, but they were just one standard deviation.

above where they coasted.

It's not a huge gap.

Maybe they were still, are still getting that rush from the work.

I don't think they feel as fraudulent.

Interesting.

I say that not knowing either, but I just, that's just my hunch.

Yeah, I think they were just doing it at a level that was so committed.

It required a focus I was too lazy to tap into.

They probably cared deeply about the quality of the work and maybe the accolades or being recognized as being very, very good.

I don't know if you did or not.

They had set the bar really high for themselves to then have to top or at least create performances and find material that would be super unique, very challenging, and different from what they'd just done.

I think they had access to better material, they were trusted more with the stuff that required that level.

And good for them because that's the thing I would shy from.

I would read a script that was like really challenging and way outside.

And get scared.

Yeah.

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The other thing I would argue, in addition to being that focused on the commitment, is also whatever the pain and angst was, that level of medicating was enough for them to find comfort.

And your level of pain and discomfort required the amount you were using.

It's not a one-size-fits-all, is it?

It's not.

What was the very hardest thing for you to talk about in the documentary?

It was the sex stuff.

Again, it was that thing of the way something exists up here and feels in here and finally comes out.

And it's the story I wrote.

about how I'd be judged, what was going to happen, what the results would be.

None of it happened.

And it feels better out there than it did in there for so long.

It's so curious.

I like really mulled over.

I'm like, yeah, man, to say that, hey, I've had sex with guys along the way.

It's so weird.

Cause if I had met you as gay or met you as bi,

there's nothing there.

What's so weird or interesting is like, but I had him in this category.

It kind of speaks to how inflexible are

Well, this is a story because I had him in this category.

And it's just kind of a testament to how that aspect is interesting.

It was pretty crack-fueled.

I don't say that to excuse it or be like, oh, only that thing.

Because even if there's an intense drug involved, it still has to open a door of a room that already exists, right?

Maybe or maybe not.

I'll just give you one example.

Our favorite podcast we've ever heard in our life, we share it, is this episode of Radio Lab called Blame.

And this man who was married and happy and a normal guy, he got this procedure because he had epilepsy and they cut a corridor in his brain so the two sides couldn't fight.

Oh, damn.

And in the process of doing that, they cut the the circuitry from your central brain, your pleasure, all that stuff.

The circuitry to your frontal lobe that says, like, oh, yeah, I desire that, but that's insane.

We're not going to do that.

Right.

That got cut.

This woman who's lived with this husband gets a knock at the door.

She goes downstairs.

The Homeland Security is there because he is consuming a tremendous amount of pedophilia pornography.

Child pornography.

And she's like, what?

That's not my husband.

And as they point out in this book, that part of the brain, the reptilian brain, it just wants everything that's an option.

Wow.

Basically, the part they tinkered with released, he had no inhibition.

Wow.

And it's such an interesting question because it's like, is it his fault?

They performed a surgery and now he's different.

And there's a medication that can put him back to normal, but he has to serve his time for this thing.

Oh, seriously, really.

Yeah, which he does, but it's a very complex.

It's very complicated.

Wow.

You know.

The brain and chemicals, they really can change a person.

For sure.

sure.

Crack, it ignites the reward circuitry and you just get stuck in the reward circuitry.

Honestly, anything's on the table.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Given a long enough time horizon.

Right.

And I use the metaphor of the menu that I had exhausted one side of the menu, like basically everything from every appetizer, every entree, every freaking all of it, every dessert.

And finally just went, oh, there's more on the back.

What's all this?

Yeah.

And the company I was keeping was mostly women in the adult film profession.

Yeah.

And so they're doing jobs during the day and coming back telling stories about stuff that's only on that other side.

Exactly.

And I'm like, oh, wait, so you can put that.

And they're like, of course we can.

It didn't have to be done secretly.

They were just part of it.

All right.

This is what we're doing.

Yes.

Yes.

It was a relief to talk about it.

I bet.

And the reason I did, for a couple of reasons, for myself, first and foremost, but prepping for the documentary, the director, Andrew Renzi, who I think is a freaking genius,

put this guy took together.

He was incredible.

Hell, he said, look, man, at some point we got to get into this other thing.

The amount of research, he scraped the internet or dove into it in a way like he was an AI program, you know, and found a lot of stories and rumors and stuff about me and said, hey, this is stuff that people have talked about for a long time.

How do you feel about us taking a peek at that?

And I said, all right, sure.

Good for you.

Thank you.

But because right when we finished my interviews for the doc is really when I was able to really sit down and start the book.

I knew, all right, so it's already going to be in the other thing.

And if it's not here, and the other thing was that with that amount of crack, if that story or those experiences weren't part of that journey, people would be like, um,

it usually goes there.

Yes.

Right.

This is what we know from being in the rooms.

It's like you hear someone tell a story and you're like 90% there.

It's like, well, that's interesting.

Yeah.

A hundred out of a hundred other people end up cheating on their wives when they're in that situation.

But yeah.

Yeah.

So I didn't want to create that vibe that something.

Yeah, yeah.

So there was that part of it.

The way it is working out.

I think it's cathartic.

Yeah.

And it's humanizing.

Like, I think people,

especially celebrities and especially you.

You've been, you know, splashed all over the news.

People have ideas about you.

And when they hear these stories, like, he's a person with some extraordinary life highlights.

I had a pretty good line on a show a few weeks ago.

I said, well, I guess I just really wanted to have even more in common with Richard Fryer, Marlon Brando, and Mick Jagran.

Exactly.

All your heroes.

Right.

What are we doing?

Okay, the part of the dock that was the hardest for me to watch was the 100 City live tour at the height of the Tiger Blood.

Is that the worst?

Yeah, that was hard for me to watch.

Because you're now confirming what you feared, which is your show sucked.

It was 21 cities.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Sorry, but in 30 days.

It's too much.

You don't have a show.

It hasn't been written.

And guess what?

You're dead in front of the people you're disappointing.

And this fear that was in the back of your mind, the fucking shadow that's always told you you sucked, you're now sucking.

Oh, yeah.

In real time.

I don't know how you continued to keep doing the live.

I mean, of all the crazy endurance you have, that's the one where I'm watching that and I'm like, oh my fucking God, if I had to go bomb every night.

Cringe City, I might be suicidal.

But did you care?

Or were you like, you know what?

I'm just going to go do drugs.

Were you even present enough to care?

I was off all the drugs.

Oh, yeah.

That's the thing, but I wasn't off a specific one, which was testosterone.

Your numbers were 4,000?

They were.

I mean, that's on her.

Oh, my God.

That's 100%.

Yeah.

So Reutridge.

That's really what that whole thing was.

But I guess there were still traces because to just stop everything, just to prove a point, it still was in my system.

Yeah.

Your brain was not well.

No.

And then I was adding crazy cream all over my body.

And then, like, let's take this thing on the road.

Now, granted, I could have said, no, that's a bad idea.

But then they start throwing out the numbers and they start start feeding the ego.

And then the first thing sells out in like 11 minutes.

And you're like, all right, okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The people want to see this.

And you're like, see what?

See what?

Okay.

Tried to build the show at my house for like a month.

Oh, wow.

Like all these brilliant comedic minds.

Todd was there, Phillips.

Yes.

I wasn't listening to anybody.

I was just going to do it my way.

Yeah, you're going to wing it.

What was the pain of that on stage when the fun of it wore off?

The rubbernecking spectacle wore off.

Sure.

They're turning.

They hate this.

I'm stuck on the stage.

It was between cities.

It was the trudge to the next city, knowing

I know, right?

And then they brought in Jeff Ross.

Oh, thank God.

Who brought comedy and just some life to it.

But then he had other stuff he had to do.

So we do like five shows and people seem happier about it.

Yeah.

Less disappointed.

Yeah.

They didn't have to cut out.

I'd be back on my own.

And that's why in the book, I don't write about the tour.

I write about on the eve, what took place before the first show in Detroit.

That's how I feel about the tour.

I clogged the toilet in the hotel because I had been so backed up.

And I had two girls in the other room that I was traveling with, and that drug keeps you very frisky, right?

We'll say.

Testosterone.

That's literally the point of it.

And so the only way

back to that fantasy was for that toilet to flush.

And it wasn't.

And so I had to build something to get into

yeah i know

i know but if you think about the symbology of everything right it's a hundred pounds of shit in a five pound toilet yeah literally so that's why that is the only story about that freaking

wow yeah and i'm glad that at least it's covered in the dock in a way yeah where people can go on that journey i think if you're a performer you're watching that and you're just like oh my god

yeah i mean it's literally your nightmares when you get into this yeah you kind of walked through a nightmare for a while.

That's interesting that you point that out.

Yeah.

It killed me.

Wow.

Because you're confirming the fear you've had since you were 20 years old.

Interesting.

You're subconscious, you're a shadow.

You brought yourself to your greatest fear.

I suck.

You proved it to yourself.

I did.

It's not the embarrassment of this or the interview on the talk show.

It's the actually.

Bringing your fear to life in the most palpable, real way is wild psychologically.

And making a false promise to those people that they were in for a night of fun and folly.

That's why I descended into just a pit of complete darkness and went silent after I got home from that.

I thanked everybody for their time and just decided to enlist a whole new crew.

And that's when all the other shit started.

I just needed to get so freaking numb.

I have three more questions.

I'm going to try to get in quick because you've given us so much of your time and I love it.

Thank you.

And I'm sorry that every question turns into like this long.

No, that's where we

like it.

Actually, never really even answers the fucking

This is exactly what we like.

The one question I have, and this is just nosy, but the one thing I was a little wanted from the doc, and I'm not to that point in the book, is what's happening financially?

You made so much fucking money.

Do you not still make a lot of money on two and a half men?

I don't.

Were those like buyouts of residuals based on choices that I made during anger management?

I came to this place where everybody thinks that, oh, because that contract and all this, I think I only did eight episodes at that fee.

Crazy fee,

which is still more than

anyone deserves.

I had a crooked business manager at the time and I said, I haven't felt rich.

I want to feel rich.

So I want to buy an airplane, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's like, well, no, just charter.

I'm like, no, no, no.

I can buy half of this one airplane.

And he's like, well, the front or the back?

I'm like, fuck off, right?

So I did that.

And I got this giant line of credit and then lived like a rock star.

A billionaire.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And loved it until.

I got to tell Monica, he was spending $15,000 to $30,000 a day on crack.

It was a lot.

Can you compute that?

There was a moment, and it's in the dock, and it's pretty cool, and it's in the book where my supplier, my middle man was a guy named Marco, a terrific guy.

And his south of the border connection was where it was coming from.

And they at one point said, we got to talk to your guy because we didn't give him permission to be a dealer.

He's a customer, not a distributor.

Yeah, exactly.

And it was this moment where we had to convince them.

It's all for me.

yeah they were like oh okay well geez carry on good man is he okay but carry on good man for sure every fiddler at some point needs to get paid for those dances and it came time to pay off that line of credit and the only asset i had was my back end on two and a half which would pay in increments quarterly six people had their hands in it yeah so by the time it got to me it was still more money than anyone deserves yeah 10 000 people could live on but it still didn't satisfy yeah crazy yeah and And so I chose to not be held hostage by the bank and just sold that and paid that and just wiped the slate.

I understand the decision.

Yeah.

And the universe plays fair sometimes.

And I think a lot of that stuff was taken from me because the excesses that it was funding.

I was not a good steward of it.

The universe has a way of taking things away that you're not a good steward of.

And I think the reduction, the night and day, like shutdown of that kind of earning power or at least access to it.

I think that's another thing that saved my life.

Yeah.

You know, when I quit drinking, I think it's covered differently in the book than it is in the doc.

I was at a place where it was okay to just reattach myself to very basic things and at the same time, the most important people

in my life, children, family,

old friends.

And so I didn't need that kind of wealth to feel rich.

with all these kids who suddenly didn't care about a TV rating or a salary thing.

Well, you had this most beautiful moment in the dock, and this is where it's just absolutely gut-wrenching and beautiful, which is his daughter had to be somewhere and he would never drive her drunk and he sent his driver and he had joined her and they're together with a driver.

Well, it's Tony Todd.

It was actually my best friend.

Oh, yeah.

He was the most lovely guy.

What's this guy

went through?

What he's saying.

Never, ever used.

And was along for the whole ride to make sure Charlie didn't die.

Yeah.

Beautiful dude.

So,

so much.

It was a hair appointment that I had just completely forgotten about.

And I'm a Virgo and I don't forget a lot of stuff.

Yeah, but when you disappoint a child, that's the worst feeling in the world.

When's your birthday?

August 24th.

Oh, okay.

I'm September 3rd.

Oh,

close.

So it was just this moment coming home in the car.

And, you know, we were on time thanks to Tony.

Sam got her thing taken care of.

I was in the front seat and I could see her in the mirrors.

I could see her in the side and also in the visor.

And I just saw her back there.

And I'm not clairvoyant, but I could feel the thoughts about why isn't it just me and dad?

Yeah.

How old was she?

12 or 13.

why isn't it just me and dad like it used to be had an awakening i have to make a decision decisions to never have this happen again like a sacred vow to the forces that i believe in you can call it god and did there was another thing in the mix that's what started that that was the catalyst for sure it was that just one

really beautiful magical cosmic freaking moment.

And it happened in such a simple circumstance.

It's not a third act resolution.

It's not cinematic.

It's so tiny.

That somehow breaks through in that moment, which is suspicious and interesting.

Yeah, the biggest thing showed up in, I don't want to call it the smallest moment, but there's no yelling.

She didn't go, dad, why don't you love me?

You just knew.

And you just looked at her and you saw it.

You just knew.

And then right after that, there had been some advances with the HIV meds.

They said, look, we want you to change your cocktail.

We're going to shrink it.

I'm going to try these two new things.

But here's the kicker.

You can't drink on this one.

The other, you could drink your face off and they worked fine

why did they tell me that right why did they tell me that right i said all right i'll not drink for a month and see how the pills are working and they were working great i was like okay let's do another month that just turned into you were able to wow sam started it but then this other thing that was like my life was at stake i'm not saying it wasn't with the other but they showed up at the same time wow and i don't believe in coincidences you kind of asked for help from the universe and it gave it to you exactly here's my hardest question.

Oh, Jesus.

This is the last one.

This is the last one.

Those were easier ones?

I weeded out one of them.

This is the last one.

So I am watching this doc and I'm just falling in love with you.

And I know everyone that will watch it will fall in love with you.

And I know everyone that'll watch this will be in love with you.

Right on.

And the pattern's so insanely obvious.

It's like ridiculous.

The pattern is you get a ton, you fucking obliterate.

You got nothing.

You somehow get a ton.

You obliterate it.

And so I'm watching it and I'm loving you.

And I know how everyone's going to feel.

And I know you're going to have another opportunity to go be brilliant on a sitcom.

Thank you.

Or a film or whatever it is.

Yeah.

And that terrifies the fuck out of me.

Interesting.

Wow.

I'm so scared for you to be given all the shit again.

Are you afraid of it?

I'm not.

Has it crossed your mind?

Of course.

Okay.

Okay.

Of course.

Okay.

Yeah.

No, I'm cautious about it.

Yeah.

I even thought of my own role in this.

Like, do I want to play a role in it?

In getting people to

love you and root for you and let you be back up there where i do think you have the talent to be and deserve do i want to play a role in that i don't ever want to see you sure on tv again fucked up me neither and i literally had to think ethically like do i want to be a part of this process because i now love this dude from far wow and you understand that and i know yeah yeah yeah i haven't been in a professional environment in a long time where i was there for all the right reasons that i was contributing in a high stakes creative environment.

With the right intention.

Yeah, man.

It's not about proving it.

It's just about feeling that again.

By feeling that, I think there's proof in that, that he's back here for the right reasons.

And I think the work will show that, whatever that work turns out to be.

Let's put it this way.

We have a great adage in our secret society, which is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

is the definition of insanity.

So I guess my curiosity is as you enter into that, the game plan has to already be a place.

Like, oh, what are we going to do differently this time?

We're not going to wait till we're there to figure out what we're going to do differently.

We're going to know what we're doing differently before we get there.

It's not my place to challenge you like this.

It's just

as someone who loves you and is in this fellowship, I want to know that there's a game plan that we don't wait till we wake up.

Sure.

I'm going to honor my word.

That's what it comes down to.

Honor my word to myself.

Honor my word to the job, to the people that are trusting me with that job.

That's what's different.

Things change at 60.

Right.

It's like you start figuring out, okay, okay, 10,000 days.

What's that?

It's like 27 years or something.

How do I really want to spend those?

Yeah.

Because I know what the other 10,000 looked like and how I felt and just what came out of that.

It doesn't fit anymore.

There's no place to do it sneakily.

You know what I'm saying?

There's no real estate for it.

No, you can't even carve out a niche or some opportunity or some secret moment.

It can't be a part of it.

I just adore you.

Oh, thank you.

Likewise.

It's so fucking lovable.

And I'm just thrilled to see you doing so well.

I really

know.

This is incredible.

And I didn't even remember that you made a joke at my expense.

I'm thrilled that I got to close that circle.

Yeah.

Well, Charlie, I adore you.

Please come back.

This was so fun.

I'll come back.

I'll come back and talk about the thing that I didn't screw up.

Yeah.

That's it.

I look forward to that.

That would be cool.

Yay.

Thank you.

Stay tuned for the facts, Jack, so you can hear all the facts that were wrong.

Just got back from a hike.

Third, third morning in a row.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's fun.

Friend of the pot is visiting.

Yeah, one of my premier boyfriends.

Yeah, Vincent D'Onoffrey.

My biggest and sweetest.

Yeah, he's so nice.

Yeah.

We were talking on the hike and he...

He was expressing some confusion by why any women have liked him.

And I said, oh, it couldn't be more obvious.

It's so obvious.

He's such a nice boy.

He's so big and protective, yet

you sense that he needs some nurturing.

Yeah, it's a good combo.

What could be more appealing?

Yeah, it's a very appealing combo.

I feel it towards him.

Yeah, I know.

God, is he a sweetheart?

Okay, well, I have something to talk about.

Oh, wonderful.

I'm going to the airport.

Oh, no, wonderful.

I'm sorry.

I thought it might be something different.

It's okay.

Oh, wonderful.

Oh, it's okay.

I'm going to the airport.

Two things about that.

One, I'm in my airport outfit.

It's very cute.

It's

exceedingly cute outfit.

You have your polo bear sweat shirt on that you love.

You have to think things through

when you like fashion and you go to the airport.

Right.

It's a big coming out party, right?

Yeah, people like really dress specifically.

And I never do that.

I always just wear sweats.

Yeah, yeah.

But I've been thinking more about trying to look cute at the airport.

Sure.

It's because it seems like a really fertile place for a meet cute.

Where are you going to?

There's all these built-in questions.

Yeah.

Maybe you're on the same page.

Like, oh, I hate delays.

Even better, you're delayed and you're watching someone lose their shit.

And you look over and there's like a cute guy who's also thinking like, oh, this person's berserking.

And you go like, huh?

I see you.

Yes, we both, we recognize that.

So now we're on the same team.

We're on that we're sane team.

It's a great place to start.

We're same.

same but i don't want to be we're same

we're same we're sane yes yes same same and although i don't i don't know about you know um commiserating over someone else's misery not their misery their behavior their um

shitty behavior towards the clerk at the gate whatever we're calling it gate gate attendant yeah that's right yeah injustice yes yes yes yes um or to be embarrassed for someone is good sure i am in first class like if you saw someone yelling like oh yeah i paid 2300 for this ticket and you'd be like oh

and then you'd look over you'd be going just like this like and you'd look over and the guy be like this and then you go you'd you go this is cute or both what's your name

what is your name anyways

anyways

Well, I hope that happens.

Yeah.

That would be a great turn of events.

Yes.

But anyway, part of the AirPod Outfit situation for me, though, is I'm really not, I do,

this maybe is the only time I really prioritize comfort as well.

Yeah.

And so I have to wear some sort of tennis-like shoe, some sort of comfortable shoe

and pockets.

I had on other pants and I realized, nope, I had to put on these.

These are less cute than the ones I had on.

They're still cute.

Find that hard to believe, but okay.

They're still good pants.

Take it your word.

But pockets.

But what scares me about these trousers you're wearing is sure pockets but so flowy doesn't everything fall immediately out of these pockets when you sit down no it's mainly and it's not mainly for the sitting it's walking through the airport i like to have my phone in my pocket not in my bag yeah yeah yeah and sometimes

yeah my ticket or my um

wallet

yeah yeah

in my other pocket yeah i don't know if we're allowed to say that anymore in 2025 but yeah so i um when you're having your meet cute with the guy, I want you to go like, oh my gosh, I'm so embarrassed.

You've caught me with my wallet in my pocket.

And I don't want you to hold that against me.

I don't normally.

I don't normally do that.

It's an airport thing?

What are your airport things?

Yeah.

Oh, I know.

And then you realize for that first time, he's holding a sphere or something, or whatever you call it, a

staff.

Oh.

And he goes, this.

And you're like, oh, my God, I didn't even see that.

Yeah, you're holding like a four-foot staff.

What's that about?

Right.

I thought you were just a wizard.

Oh, my God.

that's so exciting.

I can't, go ahead.

No, no, you can go ahead.

No, we'll circle back.

No,

I don't want to.

This is going to take up a lot of the conversation.

So I assume this is probably not.

Okay.

Have you seen the photos by chance of Eric's dad traveling the world?

Oh, some, yes.

Friend of the pot, Eric Richardson.

Yes.

His dad has like just been gone for a year.

He

started in Ecuador for a while.

He was living in Prutina.

So now I got this picture of him in Egypt.

Can you see that?

Oh, my gosh.

And he does walk with a staff.

Yeah, he does.

Well, he's older.

Yes.

And I'm going to show you one more.

Look at this.

And he's doing cute things.

He's holding up glasses in front of the Sphinx.

He's doing such cute things.

Yes.

He's like, you know, when you're like pinching, you're.

How do you say this?

There's like a forced perspective where you are pinching something far in the distance.

Acting as if you're holding it.

Yes.

And he's got sunglasses on the Sphinx.

But I took a couple look at those photos and I said, he

is a wardrobe away from being a wizard.

Look at this photo I made.

Oh, you made that.

He made that.

That's right.

Doesn't he look so cute as a wizard?

He does.

Did you add the beard or was that?

No, that's his real beard.

Wow.

Yeah.

All he has is a crushed felt cape and a crushed felt vest.

So the first one I did, by the way, this was insanely easy.

Okay, I was, first of all, I'm impressed.

I assume you did this via AI.

I did.

I did.

And I had never done this.

I've had it create images like, I want a Chevy van with cool wheels, whatever.

This was, I uploaded the photo of him and I said, can you put a wizard's cap and a

purple cape on this man?

Yeah.

And within 25 seconds, there it was.

And it looks really good.

It looked really good.

I was really proud of it.

I sent it to Eric.

Yeah.

And then the second photo, I was like, I'm going to give this thing a little more liberty.

Instead of saying, I just said, make this, make the man in this photo look like a wizard.

And then AI put him in a vest and put a little glowing thing on his sphere.

my.

Did a great job.

Wow.

It looks like something someone great at Photoshop would have spent a week on.

Exactly.

That when you first said you made it, that was suspicious.

Yeah.

It was like you made that.

That's not even fair to say I made it.

That's the ethics around this, but you did.

It didn't exist until I got involved.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

Wow.

Okay, just the staff made me think of that.

That's really cute.

Well, it's actually sort of a ding, ding, ding because Eric's dad is older and he's in Egypt.

Yeah.

Like he's out and about.

He's really

a young friend.

Yeah, he has a young friend and he's not letting life like get him down.

He's pinching the pyramid.

That's so wonderful.

I know.

And I really love people who are really just like taking life on.

And for me, it makes me really optimistic.

Like, wait, I could have an adventure like that still in 40 years from now.

Exactly.

Yeah.

It's very, it's very life life-affirming.

I love that.

And okay, so I have bad news personally.

Yeah.

There was a sudden, pretty tragic death in my family on my dad's side.

My aunt drowned.

It's a really weird thing to say.

It is.

My first question to you is like,

is there foul play?

That's so weird.

Yeah.

And of course, they did have to rule that out.

Yeah.

Um,

she was older too, but also very like

Eric's dad.

She would travel all the time and she, um,

yeah, it was very like vital and enjoying life.

So it was very, it was just very shocking

on so many levels.

Yes.

And my parents had just seen her a couple months ago and she was

thriving.

Yeah.

So yeah, my mom, she'd, you know, I'm so bad at this.

Like when I'm sleeping, I don't hear the phone ringing.

I just don't hear it.

So I didn't hear it.

They obviously called me and then I woke up to text, of course, and my mom was like,

Aunt Lily died.

I'm, that's my, I'm named after her.

Yeah.

Um,

call me, call me, you know, and I was like, of course, expecting like some sort of heart attack or natural, more natural

cause.

So, of course, it's all very shock.

Everyone's in shock.

And I'm leaving today, obviously, to go be with my family.

In the great state of Washington, yeah.

Yes, that's where she lived and where

it's at the perfect time of year.

Not to be like, it'll be nice.

You know, they always, September is always the nicest month in Washington.

Okay, that's it.

It's their warmest month.

It's very Indian summer, always there.

All Indian ding ding ding.

Yo, wow, double one time, girl.

Yeah, she was Indian.

She was Indian.

People who don't know.

But yeah, so it's been a lot to process and deal with.

And, but, you know,

she really is an inspiration.

She was a single lady.

She did a lot of things.

Very successful.

Extremely successful.

She came to this country.

She went to like the big, the

best business school in India.

Then she came to this country and she started all these businesses and she was very successful.

She brought my dad over.

He lived with, like, you know, she kind of like shepherded him.

As much as I know about your family, this was a revelation when you told me she had come first and brought your dad over.

Yeah.

Since you've told me that, it's funny what things, what little details can all of a sudden explain so much.

Like there's a lot about your dad

that was an enigma to me.

Oh.

And not knowing that piece of the puzzle.

This is kind of like solved like his

respect and deference for women.

Yes.

Don't kill me.

Coming from a culture that maybe sometimes that's not the,

you know, the sure.

I just think he's uniquely

not threatened by a strong woman.

His wife was a gangster and he supported it.

And I'm like, oh, yeah, he had a badass sister who actually paved the way for him to come here.

Now I get it.

Yeah.

Yes.

That is correct.

And, and

mother

who allowed all that to happen too, you know.

But yeah, my dad is a little brother.

He's the youngest of all these kids, you know, he's little brother energy.

And he has

like it more than that.

I hate it.

I hate it.

But I can still eye roll at it.

But I like that he's a little brother.

Neil must have a shared language to some degree.

Well, they have older sisters, older successful sisters.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You must have seen Neil in a unique way.

Probably.

I've never even really thought about that.

I don't know if he's even thought about that.

Like, I see Delta in a unique way because I was a little sibling and I know what she's going through.

Yeah, that's very interesting.

Yeah.

Probably.

Yeah.

But yeah, he,

you know, obviously has a very special relationship with her.

So I was, and then, you know, I'm like worried about my dad.

And it's all, it's just all, it's like

so

much.

And, and then, you know, and then there's guilt because I'm like, oh, like, oh, like, I get kind of mad at all of it.

Like, this is so upsetting.

Like, why did this happen?

This is, I hate to, this is inconvenient.

Like, death is really inconvenient.

It rarely falls on spring break or.

And then that's inconvenient in its own way.

Like, you know, it's not.

There's never a great time.

There's never a great time.

And let's take one second, though.

If we had to pick

the time for you.

I have the time for me.

Okay.

January 2nd.

It's like already the day.

Yeah, but it's already the shittiest day.

Everyone's already like, you've already had all the fun you can have and it feels so long before you're going to have something fun again.

It's like, yeah, let's just throw it in there because it's already going to be a slump.

So let's just do it then.

I think that's the ideal.

You don't want it leading into summer.

You don't want it over one of the holidays.

Right?

What about the third?

So at least you got one more.

You were one age older.

That's fine.

Well, I would still be one age older on the second because that's officially one of the things.

We don't want to ruin New Year's Day.

No.

Right.

We got to watch football that day.

The second is the shittiest day of the year.

I think objectively.

No, I don't like any of this because then it's like the year starts with this horrible thing.

Then in my head, I'm like, this is the worst year.

It's a bad year.

That's a fair pushback.

So maybe the maybe the 31st

or well, maybe the funeral on the 31st so that you can start.

On New Year's Eve?

Well, I just want to.

No, no one wants to go to a funeral on New Year's Eve.

Okay, the 28th or something.

Because I just want the new year to start cleaning.

Clean.

Okay.

Okay.

Now, I hate what we just did.

Okay.

So please.

My pitch is January 2nd or late April.

In Michigan, when it's like you thought summer came and then it didn't.

Now the winter's back and you're already like, fuck all this.

Again, throw it there where you're already going to be miserable.

So just cap out the misery when you're already experiencing it.

Don't taint any of the joy.

Okay.

Put it all in one bag.

I see what you mean, but also it could really push someone over the edge if they're already feeling miserable.

To the breaking point.

Yeah.

And so we don't, I don't know.

I think we need to rethink some of it.

Although, okay, this is fun.

I think there's a limit of how shitty you can feel.

Like, I've hit it before, right?

It's like, I feel so shitty.

Yeah.

And then, like, I'm just at the bottom for long enough that I go, I don't even know what the actual switch is that flips, but I go, yeah, that's it.

I can't feel any better and I can't feel any better any longer.

I just almost like, I get fatigued of being

so shitty.

Yeah, but I know what you mean.

And I have felt that, but I've also like,

I have thought.

If one more thing happens, like my body will not be able to take it.

Like it's already, I can feel my nervous system is like really teetering.

Yeah.

And if

we get another something, critical mass, I don't know.

Then I'll die.

And then my dad will be, oh my God, imagine

ever.

Okay.

So you're nugging on a lot of things that don't necessarily deserve nuggets, but that one.

Whatever.

Anywho,

so she

was.

very special to him and and very special in general.

And she did things her own way and she did a a lot of things Indian people don't do.

She got divorced.

Damn, good for her.

She, you know, was very independent, you know, had these houses, dyed her hair fun colors.

Like, she's just a very unique woman.

She ever shave her sides.

She would have.

I should have.

She definitely would have.

We should have had a meal or something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Very spunky.

And, you know, it's not really lost on me that I

have a lot of that.

And

that makes me feel proud, but also I'm like, oh my God, because I'm not going to get into the details of the drowning, obviously, but

you know, she did things her own way and she decided to do things

that

maybe

were not.

You know I'm going this way too.

I mean,

no, you can't.

This is my point.

This is a cautionary tail time.

You know, I'm going to be 96.

I'm like, I can hang glide.

I never tried it.

This is exactly.

This is cautionary tale time

because I like, but, you know, whatever.

I guess it's like.

No, right?

Because that's what got her to this place where you admire her.

That's exactly the whole thing.

It's like

being, yes.

This thing that made her live this very special life is also sort of the thing that may have taken her down.

Yes.

But for her,

and

that's probably the way she would have wanted it.

I mean, I don't think anyone would ever want to drown.

I mean, that's probably, that's the thing that's, I think, messing with everyone's head so much is like, there was like we can imagine how much suffering there was.

Exactly.

And that's horrible.

That's brutal, but someone with her, what's what I feel like I understand her personality to be and mine.

Yeah.

If I have the choice of

going out in control, something I chose to do versus some crazy disease that just

my dad, right?

Like three months goodbye.

Yeah, I'd rather die a year earlier and have it on my terms

for me.

Yeah, I mean, I hear, I hear you.

I think, again, there's just so many different personalities.

I don't think she probably felt in control when she was drowning.

No, but she died by a decision she made, not that the universe made for her.

That's right.

And in some ways,

what's what?

The universe did make it.

Like we, you know, I don't know.

But

and it's been really interesting

because,

you know, my parent, my, my aunt, this aunt, Aunt Lily, and my grandpa on my dad, on my mom's side, sorry, on my mom's side, who passed away a couple years ago, who I was very, very close with.

They are the reason my parents are married.

They met

through work and they were like, let's start meddling.

Yeah, let's put these two people together.

They might be a good fit.

And then my

well, no, my cousin sent me,

she found this letter.

It was from my grandpa to my aunt.

Oh, wow.

And it has a picture of my mom.

And it's like, you know, it's, and it's so special.

And it is like.

Was he saying what a great catch she would be?

I also can't read it very very well it's very scrawly handwriting um so i'm only making out certain words but it is this you know you can like my daughter and and my dad's name's in there and it's kind of and it's it's basically like

let's have them meet and then see if they're compatible and then it's up to them so it was kind of this like you know half half arrangement but it's so weird to see that piece of history yeah and even the times are just so different like yeah, if they were now, none of this probably would have happened.

They would have gone on each other's Instagram and find four things they don't decide were deal breakers, exactly, exactly, and yeah, and um,

yeah, it's like this origin story, and it's so wild.

I really hope you should write something about it.

It feels like there's some pieces in there to write, yeah, but you know, they're both gone now, both of those people, and

and but it led to this like beautiful thing.

Yeah.

And it's,

I know, wouldn't be here without those two.

When you're at the memorial, will you say, my friend Dax wanted to thank you for pulling him out of the financial shadow he lived under his wife?

Maybe you can send me that in a text.

I don't know if I'll be able to remember it.

I'll pull up my phone and I'll read it.

I had a friend say,

I thought very poignantly:

when someone

exits the physical world, it really just like

unearths all the ghosts for the people still here.

She's like, that's the haunting.

It's not the person coming back.

It's all your stuff coming up.

And I was like, that's right.

Yeah, yeah.

So

anyway, that's that.

I'm going to go.

We're going to celebrate her life.

Gray.

What kind of,

is it

following the guidelines of any existing tradition or will this be its own?

I'm not, I'm not sure.

Okay.

Well, I'll find out.

Anyway, so that's, that's my update.

Yeah, that's a big update.

It's a big update, but you know,

gotta be grateful.

Can't imagine you were in a state of mind to go do this, but you didn't happen to see one problem after another, did you?

I'm dying to see it.

I saw it yesterday.

One battle?

Oh, one battle.

One battle.

Sorry, sorry.

Sorry.

One battle after another.

Did you see it, Rob?

Yeah, I saw it.

Did you love it?

Yeah, I loved it.

It's fucking awesome, man.

On a bunch of levels.

One, the acting's insane.

And this is Leonardo Daga.

I don't say anything new, but my God, he just will not quit being fucking brilliant.

So brilliant.

Does it move kind of fast?

Because it's long, and I, you know, I have some aversion now to long movies.

I could not tell it was long.

Okay, great.

I had not looked at the runtime before I went.

But it is a mega movie.

You're like, you

There's so much in it.

Yeah.

What were you about to say, Rob?

The music in it is incredible, too.

Music was incredible.

It's Johnny Greenwood that did it from Radiohead.

Oh, cool.

Yeah, music's awesome.

The needle drops are awesome.

Like Steely Dan's in it.

It's great.

Benitzio is fucking awesome.

Sean Penn is insane.

He's absolutely insane.

And

then, of course, it's a daddy-daughter story,

which I didn't even even know going in.

Yeah.

And so, sure, we get to the end of the movie.

And I'm like, don't spoil.

I'm not spoiling anything.

I just know that I was like watching and watching.

I was like,

I don't even know where to go.

I cannot do these daddy-daughter things.

I'm like, interstellar, I didn't understand one thing that was going on, but I knew that he was going to miss his daughter's life.

And I was heartbroken.

Interstellar is the most like devastating.

It's such a damn thing.

And I don't even know what's going to be on by the way.

I know.

It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter because there's a daddy dollar thing happening.

And there's one and missed.

So it's like, oof, I'm not even sure how.

Like, when I recommend it, I'm like, I don't know.

I was moved beyond belief because

there isn't anywhere someone could hide on point.

It's bad for.

Oh, sorry, Rob.

Dads and sons.

Dads and sons don't get the same treatment, and it doesn't mean it's a different thing that we get to adolescence.

oh my gosh

that's the reward

oh no

yeah it's not fair because it's it's it's not fair because it's not true sons and dads it's different but it's still it's such an important oh my god

what's cool about father's son with the potentials that's there yeah is that you can idolize your dad yeah and you can have this little little boy who's trying to grow up and be like you, which is so moving, I think.

Like, I don't have that piece, which sounds fun a little bit.

Well, okay, I take it all back.

Beautiful boy.

Yes,

beautiful boy.

Horrible adolescence.

Yeah.

I know.

God, it's true.

All those stories are just.

Yeah.

I was racking my brain.

And then I just thought of the other thing, which is like, Hitton runs on Netflix now.

Oh, I know.

So it's

made me so happy.

I was so happy to be able to go to Netflix and and hit play on the movie.

That's awesome.

And I wanted to just hit play on the movie.

Yes.

And then I got completely sucked in.

And then the family got sucked in.

And we watched it again.

It was so fun.

And then I was even, at the end of it, I was like, it's so weird.

I chose to do father-son in that,

which is not.

It is interesting.

And I think after seeing the other movie last night, I'm like, I'm not really sure why that was my.

Well, the kids weren't born.

The kids weren't born.

I obviously had unresolved stuff with my dad i guess my dad sees me in that movie the first thing he does is punches me right um but i just was like oh this is really weird like i don't know that you know what you're processing when you're doing stuff yeah and then after maybe it makes sense and maybe even that's bullshit yeah the way you make it make sense but i don't know i just like oh that's so interesting that that was the device i decided to use to let Annie see Charlie again in a different way as opposed to doing it with his mom per se.

Yeah.

I don't even know where, I don't know if Charlie has a mom in that movie.

Like, that's not anything I even decided as a writer, right?

Yeah, I think there's a

there's a trope, but based on reality that like

sons and dads have, can have, that's complicated and moms and daughters, that's complicated.

Yeah, yeah.

So, I mean, it makes sense in a story when it's complicated.

And you want conflict.

Yeah.

And I think maybe, even though, again, this isn't true, like Rain Wilson's story,

you might be like, a mom wouldn't not want to see the son or that wouldn't, like, it's like harder to believe.

Yes, yes, yes.

Um, or not, even though that's immediately forgiving.

But yeah, fathers and sons can get in these wars.

Yeah.

Where it's just two proud males.

And, and, and, and in a weird way, you're always fighting over masculinity.

And when does that torture pass?

And when do you see me as a real man?

And then part of the definition of being a man is like, I don't apologize.

And I, you know, and I, so it's like, it's just so right.

It's like proving something because I think when you're a boy to a mom, you can always be a boy.

Yes.

But you don't feel like you can be that with a dad.

But you're trying to show your dad.

You, you're, you're a man.

You want him to look at you and go, you did it.

You're a man and I'm proud of the man you are.

And then you think the way you'll prove that to him is you will challenge him right which is not it doesn't go well doesn't go well doesn't tend to go well yeah

yeah

boy i don't um oh but i'm excited to see that movie i'm really excited it's so good yeah so good oh yeah

it's so good it kills me that we're we'll probably never talk to leo you know you know he went on new heights but he did but he with bonizio with bonizio and he's and he went on mark marin with brad oh yeah a long time ago yeah It seems like clear he'll never do a one-on-one.

I don't know.

I mean, I'm not going to give up on the dream.

A lot of dreams have come true.

Yeah, that's right.

But there's a couple people that I just want to fallate.

I want them to come in and I want to blow them for two hours.

Yeah, but we also need to ask them questions.

And

you can handle that.

But like, I want to do that to Tom Cruise.

Yeah.

Like, I want to have him on and not talk about scientist and all the other stuff everyone's.

I just want to tell him what a gift he's given this country for the last 35 years.

Well, that is fine, but also remember that when we started this, we were like, doesn't matter.

The top of the mountain is not interesting.

It's all these other things.

It's the human things.

So, yeah, I don't want him to come on and we berate him about Scientology, but I want to know about him.

I do too.

But, but, but let's just say, if we do a thousand of these, yeah, and like five of them are just a celebration of somebody, I also don't mind that.

Wow, Yeah.

I don't feel like I'll be betraying the covenant so much.

I have so much curiosity about who they are without that layer.

Yes.

And

generally, that's my curiosity.

But it is interesting.

There are a handful of people that I am actually so blown away with their work that I'm interested in it.

Cause I'm not interested in someone's acting.

Right.

I don't really care because I do the thing and I don't think it's that incredible.

Yeah.

But when I think of what Tom Cruise has done so consistently, and this thing that adam scott told me like when we were bonding over our obsession with him and adam said his unique talent and i think he said what he does better than anyone's ever done it is he is not acting for himself or for the director for anything he's acting for the audience and he understands exactly what the audience needs in every moment yeah the way he like his mastery of understanding what it's going to be when you're sitting in a seat and watching it on a big screen yeah is like something no one's ever had.

And that,

I want to know how he gets to that.

Stay tuned for more armchair expert,

if you dare.

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Leo, I'm quite interested because what I've been able to gather in my fascination with him is like, he's not a huge acting technique guy.

And that between takes, he's like just totally back to normal immediately.

And then it's action.

He can pop into that.

Does he think there might just be mad?

Like, what it, how can he do what he does?

I'm very curious.

Well,

I imagine, I mean, he was, he's been doing this for so long at such a high level.

Like, Gilbert Grape is a two or the fours.

Yeah, acting job for an adult that would be impossible to pull off.

And he did it as a kid.

So I think he's...

He's probably had a lot of reinforcement that, like, I can do it.

Yes.

And I read an interview around that time.

It was when he had done This Boy's Life, the Tobias Wolf book.

Yeah.

And I loved that movie.

And I had read that De Niro would get frustrated with him because De Niro needs to be grinding and working and processing.

And they'd be between these really heavy scenes.

And as soon as

Leo would be like pulling a prank on somebody.

And De Niro is like focused.

He thought he needed to teach this kid to focus, but he didn't need to.

Yeah.

Because somehow Leo could just always

be.

He just probably just, he has trust in himself.

I think he might be like a god, like he's an acting god.

Like he has, he has a different, or maybe he's got a 47th chromosome or something

there's some mystery there that

that's what i want to know but i don't think that's gonna i think we'll we'd find that out and like we'd run his family like i wanted to know about his family that that's the answer the thing now leo's different than tom yeah leo i do want to because leo is a punk kid on the hollywood streets and that of course fascinates me greatly

yeah he's an unlikely he still looks so good it's so annoying yeah

he's a stud.

I know, but like.

Enough already?

Well, no, because like, you know, he only dates these like young people.

You know, people, this is, I mean, I don't know if we dare.

There are so many people that are really mad about that.

It's generally now when I hear, when his name is brought up, it's like that, it's all like everyone.

Not always.

They've really latched onto that.

And I understand it.

But then there is also a part of me that like.

believes greatly in liberty.

So it's like, if you, if this 23-year-old girl is dying to be with him and he is dying to be with her, I'm not really seeing the moral conundrum.

No one's saying.

It's not like he's with 17 year olds.

No one is saying that he shouldn't be allowed.

The thing is like, how can you be this age?

I mean, we've talked about this about other people, right?

Like, well, I couldn't date a 22-year-old personally.

Yes.

And I think you've said about other people who you know well, like what it means.

But, but can I really quickly put a caveat on that?

Yeah.

My issue there, because yes i have said between you and i friends of mine my issue there is they have a proclaimed goal of having a family and then their actions don't match that at all because they're they shouldn't start a family with someone who's 22.

they should start a family with someone that's around their age and at that point in their life right so my issue with that is like don't act like you want this and then do the opposite of how you would get sure but it's not a judgment of like

if people are hot for each other man like i don't know how one has an issue with that it's not an issue it's not everyone can do whatever they want but there is a like the older you get the more you understand

how different younger people are than you even me like you know unless he hasn't mature like but that's the whole thing that's really what it's kind of saying is like are you i mean he said that i guess he said like i have the emotional maturity of a 30 something the limited stuff i see in between movies, he is at like nightclubs and stuff.

Is he still?

I think so.

And I'm like, yeah, this guy's like a

kid, and he goes and pretends at work, and then he gets off, and then he acts, yeah, I don't, yeah, but all that's you have like that's fascinating for people, right?

It's possible, though, that this is what the deep things are going on.

And I'm really afraid to even suggest this, but I do.

I'm just going to ask you what you think.

Okay.

What is deeply unfair in life on this planet

is that as men age, their options don't diminish.

And as women age, their options diminish.

And it's completely unjust and unfair.

Right.

That's definitely at play.

And so is it possible that for women, when they see him with this young person, What it's really reminding them of is this, this injustice that they're not allowed to maintain their appeal and attractiveness as they age, yet men are.

And is he maybe shouldering?

He doesn't look at women that way.

Right.

Everyone's aging.

You know, it's not like.

And I'm agreeing.

It's like, it's an injustice.

It is not fair that men can still play sex symbols in their 60s and they're not, they don't let women do that.

Yeah.

So that's deeply unfair.

Yeah.

I can, I totally agree with that.

But are we asking this one person to shoulder the weight of that anger?

And

right?

And I also don't know that I agree with that.

And I think if the 24-year-old's super hot for Leo, which I believe she is.

Yeah, I believe she is.

I'm not, he's not coercing anyone.

That's not, and I don't, no one thinks that.

Right.

But I, I think two things are happening.

One, yes, that's, I'm sure that's at play.

There's like, but I do think, and not for everyone, but I do think for a lot of people, when they hear that, they're like, oh, man.

Like, there's a little bit of like, oh, he's not a serious person.

Like, I hate, that's like a mean thing to say.

And I don't know that it's true.

But like, yes, how old is he?

My age.

He's 50.

He's 50.

Okay.

So

if he's 50 and he's only dating 25 and younger, there's a sense of like, oh, my idea of him is not

what he is.

He's not what you want him to be.

Yeah, exactly.

There's like disappointment and that's not on him.

It's not.

And where I think people

have a business in complaining or judging is in movies when they can.

And like when you watch movies from the 80s and 90s, I mean, it's just laughable now that we're aware of it.

It's like every single, like Harrison Ford in every movie is with someone 25 years younger.

Like he's married to some.

So yes, there's this crazy history of the 80s and 90s and early 2000s where it's like almost it's a given that the 55 year old male actor is going to have a wife who's 30.

Yeah.

Every one of the movies.

Yeah.

And so that to me is a very legitimate complaint.

It's like, this is the workplace.

This is these people's chosen profession.

The older actors are suffering because you will refuse to cast people of the same age.

There is a workplace injustice in that.

Yeah.

And I think that's worth being really revved up about.

But I think for people in their own life, again, I'd be embarrassed, but that's that's me.

And that's myself.

That's how I choose to live my life.

I would feel silly showing up at a red card with a 19-year-old.

Yeah.

Personally.

Yeah.

And that's what people are feeling.

Because my image of myself, that's incompatible with.

Yes.

But if someone else, if everyone's honky-dory in the situation.

Yeah, if everyone's consenting, again, I don't think, I don't think we're like, he needs to go to jail for this.

It's just like, ugh, like, it's just something that I think people feel that they can call out and make fun of because it's a bit, it's a pattern and it feels interesting to people and telling, I guess.

Like, I think it's people are just like, oh, that's telling.

yeah um i would love to go on a date with him see that's kind of my point is that a lot of the people i hear that

yeah yeah yeah but trust me if we you and i were talking when you were 24 you'd be like i'll go on a date with him

oh oh yeah no i know yeah but so it's interesting when i when i hear a lot of people that are like really judgmental of him yeah i'm like also bullshit you'd go on a date with him too and all most young people would again though they're not judging the the the daughter i almost said

which by the way his daughter in this movie i think is like 25 so there's yeah here's the other thing and i i don't know and we we don't need to try to find out but like i haven't heard that any of these women feel used no he doesn't have a like a a gaggle of people that feel scorned by yeah they all seem to be pretty

That's telling too.

Like, it doesn't, again,

it's, it doesn't seem like he just wants them necessarily as arm candy.

I don't know what's going on with them, but that's why he has to come on and tell us.

And I don't care about the movies.

I want to know what is going on.

And also, does he want to date me?

I look quite young.

So maybe this is the best of both worlds

because I am appropriate age.

I'm an appropriate age.

And

I have like a year left to give him children if he would like that.

Right.

And I love that.

That's the other thing.

It's like it seems to me he doesn't want that.

I don't think he wants that.

So, like, who cares?

Oh, no, he doesn't have to want that.

But it is just like, what do they talk about?

Like, this, she's on, he doesn't know about these.

They're not living in the same.

I just think people are more wound up about it than they should be.

Yeah.

That's my kind of take on it.

Like, cause I'll talk to people.

Like, I was somewhere this summer, and this, this older guy,

he's like,

you see Leo's new girlfriend?

And I'm like no

I mean this guy and I'm like why could you possibly care of course everyone's projecting so yeah women have their own projections but men have their own projections too because if they can't they're like I can't date someone like that a I can't have that and so he shun it yeah to um I have a daughter I would be disgusted if my daughter was with this old man or that this old man was with my daughter grant your daughter her autonomy I'm like if one of my kids is hot for a dude that's older that's none of my business they get to be they get to be attracted whatever they want yeah but you might be like

my only fear would be like hon if you guys go the distance at 30 years old you're gonna be you're gonna be walking him through hospice right and then you're gonna be at this age when you're re-entering life that that would be the only thing i would want you to acknowledge is is the un uh avoidable end to this.

That part would concern me.

I think you also might be concerned if you're if like she feels, you know, she's in love with him

and you are like, maybe,

I don't know if that person is like type of person who's going to

let's look at the pattern, like odds are

four,

you might be given your

dismissal papers.

Yes.

And that as long as you go into it

with full awareness.

Right.

But I think as a dad, that's hard to watch your your kid like be in love with someone.

Some old guy gobble up there.

Yeah.

They're you.

Yes, maybe hard to watch, but I, I, I just know

better.

I know that I would never

listen to my parents tell me who I should or shouldn't be attracted to or date.

So knowing that I would have never, I would never waste a minute of my time.

Well, I'm not saying you should waste, but I don't think we can discount that you might have feelings around it.

And I think that's okay.

Okay, we're going to wrap it up because I got to go.

But also, oh, I think on this episode, I'd love to end it.

i want to play a clip the trailer of bethstead oh yes great great bethstead is the podcast i talked about last week i think or a couple weeks ago um with elizabeth and andy from work so so hard on it all of you worked so hard it's a very special project and it's true crimey and it's nancy drew and it's really fun um and it's 10 episodes and not to make this complicated but they're going to be available all on patreon for people to binge if they want it's a very bingey show.

And that's $6

if you want to do that.

Very reasonable.

Very reasonable.

And also, there'll be extra stuff.

We'll do Q ⁇ As.

We'll do other stuff.

And that'll be really fun.

But also, if you don't want to, it will all be out.

It'll start coming out the 30th weekly.

Okay, great.

So if you want to wait for that for free, you can do that too.

But I recommend the binge.

For 60 cents an episode.

Fucking go.

Go crazy.

Yeah, yeah.

But yeah, here's the trailer.

Okay, great.

I'm excited.

I'm really excited because we have Elizabeth and Andy from my favorite podcast.

Nobody's listening, right?

I have you guys here because you took something away from me.

And I never knew why you guys went off the air.

Elizabeth, I wish I could give you a hug so bad right now.

My husband told me that you, Elizabeth, Elizabeth, I'm surprised to be able to do that.

I just want to hear from you about this development drumming.

Are you all right?

Andy didn't realize at the time I was also responding to all these people who would write in with questions.

Oh my god.

The subject of the email is, you may recognize my vagina.

I went through my notes this morning.

And I was getting teary-eyed how upsetting it was.

So I got this email.

This is Beth's brother.

Just after 4 a.m., my amazing sister Beth passed away.

We are all completely devastated.

I think by this point, I was like, this feels dangerous.

I probably wished I hadn't gotten involved beyond just the podcast, but I had already committed myself.

Revisiting this has made me uneasy.

And then I'm like, if I'm going to find out a bunch of bad shit, is it going to make me feel more unease?

I can't really get it out of my head

that

I think we need to attempt to make contact.

Okay, what a burf.

Okay, deep breath, deep breath.

Okay, First time I've ever received an amends in a

interview.

Oh, that was very sweet.

Yeah.

It was really funny, per usual.

I had an idea, had an idea of what it was going to be.

And I was, honestly, I hate like this.

I was kind of scared of him.

Like, I even was like, oh, maybe I won't walk in early.

Like, I'll wait.

Yeah.

Because he was here early.

And I got here early.

And I was like, maybe I'll just wait till Dax goes in.

But then I was like, no, it's fine.

And then as soon as I walked in, he introduced himself to me.

And it was so, he was so warm and nice.

He's sweet.

He just like reeks sweet.

Yeah.

And, and I said, I'm Monica.

I'm the co-host.

He said, I know.

And I was like, oh, you did your research.

I was like, well, I read the thing they sent me.

And I was like, oh, great.

So,

yeah, I was, I was, it was not what I expected.

And it was so,

so

lovely and sweet.

And I really enjoyed it a lot.

And we could have done 15 hours with them.

I mean, as you'll see when you watch the surface, Doc, you got like 1% of the stories.

Yeah.

Okay.

Couple facts, not very many, but a couple.

Really quick.

I was hiking with D'Onofreo and he had watched it.

Uh-huh.

And I said, you know, it's hard to give someone this crown in the history of show business.

I don't think anyone's ever gone harder.

Yeah.

I mean, what an accomplishment in its own right.

I mean,

given the competition.

right?

I'm shocked.

I mean,

I'm so happy that he's

made it through.

Yeah, it's really harrowing.

Okay, he said if you get hypnotized, you can't be used as a witness in a case.

We're like,

yeah, that's what he thought.

And so I checked.

It says, no, being hypnotized does not automatically disqualify someone from being a witness in court, but the fact of the hypnosis can affect the witness's credibility and the admissibility of the hypnotically referent,

hypnotically refreshed testimony, which is often viewed as inherently unreliable.

Okay, so it is a little tricky.

Yeah,

it could render his testimony useless.

Exactly.

Which is really interesting.

Do you happen to read the New York Times article this weekend about

this person who wrote a book who had memories that they uncovered during MDMA

therapy?

No.

Very fascinating article.

Yeah.

Well, that goes against what we've heard about repressed memories.

That's, yep.

Yeah.

I'll send you the article.

Yeah, I want to read it.

Now, what is the correct way of typing called?

Touch typing.

Oh, it's not what I was thinking.

Technique of typing without looking at the keyboard by relying on muscle memory to locate the keys.

This method involves using all 10 fingers and resting them on the home row keys.

Thank you, home row keys.

ASDF for the left hand and JKL for the right hand.

JKL Jemmy Kimmel Live.

Oh my God.

Wow.

There was a statement said that Nick Cage does more movies than anyone alive.

Obviously, that's an exaggeration.

But I did.

Then I got curious who is credited with the most.

And it's Eric Roberts.

Oh, wow.

Julia Roberts' brother.

Eric Roberts is often cited as the American actor with the most film credits.

I can do an impersonation of him, but I have to block myself from you.

Okay.

They took my fucking thumbs, Johnny.

Wow.

Yeah, that's a pretty good Eric Roberts

in the Pobo Grenage Village.

Oh, my.

He has over 450 film credits and 191 TV credits.

Wow.

Yeah.

Busy, busy, busy.

Busy bee.

You know what his residual statement looks like?

Yeah.

By the way, this is American Actors.

Congrats, Eric Roberts.

Do you know how many Nick has been in?

He's never done TV, to my knowledge.

So it would only be films.

How many credits does Nick Cage have?

116

or more.

That's not helpful.

Okay.

Yeah, I got at least 119.

That's a lot.

It's a lot.

That's weird.

And mostly, I think only starring roles.

It's not like.

Like, mine's more than it should be because I'm like guesting once in a while here and there.

I come into a movie and say one line because it's friend.

You know, it's not real.

Yeah.

Well, it's real, but it's just not

the same.

It's not 116 lead roles.

Yeah, that's pretty wild um and that's it okay love you love you

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