Cas Holman (on being playful)

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Speaker 1 Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Rather, and I'm joined by

Speaker 1 Barbara Walters.

Speaker 1 It's been a minute.

Speaker 1 Today we have

Speaker 1 a very interesting guest, Kaz Holman.

Speaker 1 She is a play designer and RISD was a RISD professor.

Speaker 1 Very fancy. Which I'm embarrassed I didn't know about RISD until we started doing this show.

Speaker 1 Remember we had a guest that was a RISD and you were like, this is shameful that you don't know what RISD is, but now I do. Now you do.

Speaker 1 She has a book out now called Playful. Playful Ding Ding Ding.
Playful. How play shifts our thinking, inspires connection, and sparks creativity.

Speaker 1 You know, the second I saw Playful, I was like, let's get Cass in here.

Speaker 2 I know. It's very us.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Please enjoy Cass Holman. This episode of Armchair Expert is presented by Apple Pay.
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Speaker 1 He's an all-transfer.

Speaker 1 He's an all-time screen.

Speaker 1 I'm Jack. Nice to meet you.
Nice to meet you. Welcome.

Speaker 2 Thank you for the hug.

Speaker 1 Of course.

Speaker 2 I brought you here. Have kids.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 2 toy box. Toys for everybody.
And then for you, for the kids.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much. Not only do I have kids, but they're very up-your-alley kids.

Speaker 3 Because they play?

Speaker 1 They play like motherfuckers. They are playing machines.

Speaker 2 We have adult toys. I said I think we should unbox on air.

Speaker 1 Okay, great, great, great, great. Yes.
I think that's hilarious. Yeah.
Gemo? G-Mo. Gemo.

Speaker 1 Gemo. G-M-Mo.
I'm going to open it.

Speaker 3 Like, it's a genetically modified organism.

Speaker 1 Everything about these. Do you want me to tell you as you want to open them? Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 Okay. Why have colors? They're based on bone marrow.
That was the inspiration. Also, she thought about color-coding the magnets so that you would always know which ones stick together.

Speaker 1 And then she thought, why not let the kids discover this? Right.

Speaker 3 Thank you very much.

Speaker 1 Wow. Ah!

Speaker 3 In life, sometimes you are confronted by things that you don't know what to do with and you kind of like conflict with it. So

Speaker 3 why not? Unexpected.

Speaker 1 They're mildly perverse, which I like. Yes.

Speaker 1 Would you agree, Monty? Isn't there something just a little bit like, ooh.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I love it.
In a wonderful way.

Speaker 3 External organ style.

Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 I feel like I'm going to break rule number one. I don't even know what it is, but I'm going to ask, how do you win this?

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 that's a perfect setup.

Speaker 3 I don't know if that has anything to do with your adulthoodness.

Speaker 2 I wonder.

Speaker 1 You know what Elsies are? They're very Sussian.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they are. I was just just reading last night, Oh, the Places You'll Go to my 10-year-old.

Speaker 3 Oh, nice.

Speaker 1 And I was looking at the drawings. They're so imaginative and creative.
They don't resemble anything you're used to seeing, nor do they even necessarily make sense structurally.

Speaker 1 There's so much liberty taken by him that's so fun.

Speaker 3 In his drawings, you can see that he's playing. You can tell when he might start a line and not know where it's going.
And so I think that for him, drawing was probably kind of free play.

Speaker 3 I don't know this. I haven't done a deep dive into the process.

Speaker 1 I have the same conclusion. It's like, I don't think he sat down to go, like, I'm going to make an elephant with a flagpole on.
I think he just started drawing, and then there was a flag.

Speaker 1 Then there's a kid with a bugle.

Speaker 3 You can tell when someone loves what they do or when it's play for them. The line looks different and the drawing looks different.

Speaker 2 This is fun.

Speaker 1 Now, here's where we'll bump up against. So we'll have our own isms, Monty, with this book playful.

Speaker 2 Oh, great.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we'll bring to the table our own isms. And one would be for me right away.
It's not OCD, it's OCDP.

Speaker 3 We learned. Oh, interesting.

Speaker 1 Do you know what OCDP is?

Speaker 3 I know that there's different branches of internal, outward facing.

Speaker 1 I was using it wrong and it was kind of offensive, which is I would describe my preference for things being right angled as my OCD, but that's not OCD.

Speaker 3 That's just good craft.

Speaker 2 That's just being meticulous, tidy guy.

Speaker 1 The distinction is, is it in keeping with your morals? If it is, it's not OCD. OCD is, I'm afraid I'm going to molest a kid.
I'm afraid I'm going to to kill someone.

Speaker 1 I'm afraid I'm going to drive myself into a concrete barrier. These compulsive thoughts

Speaker 1 that are actually in great discord with your moral values. But, like, people who are just neat freaks and they go, oh, I'm OCD.
But they also agree that you should be neat.

Speaker 3 And probably not disrupting their lives. No.

Speaker 1 Exactly. No, other than maybe they have to clean more.
So, anyways, but I do have a good degree of like, so right now,

Speaker 1 I like even things.

Speaker 1 One's inherently left out.

Speaker 2 I know. I noticed that.

Speaker 1 What will I do with this errand?

Speaker 1 I know, and that is where.

Speaker 3 So, Gmo likes to live in its environment. The errant one may go and find something to hang out with.

Speaker 1 Right?

Speaker 3 So, like, yours grabbed your microphone.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Oh, I should have let him stay.
Right. And so then

Speaker 3 that extra limb gets to find a place and then live there and become part of it.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 This is dangerous. It is.

Speaker 1 I'm afraid I'm not going to. concentrate on you at all.

Speaker 3 When I first designed it, there were a few other systems. It was part of, I called it the modular ecosystem.
So it wasn't about each of them living independently.

Speaker 3 It was like they were all codependent. You know, maybe it's parasitical.
Maybe it's... Let's say symbiotic.

Speaker 1 Symbiotic.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we don't like codependence here.

Speaker 1 That was a different episode. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 They need each other. Gmo needs to be part of its environment.
It seeks to live in balance.

Speaker 1 I love it. This is really cool.
I love it. You're from Northern California.
We're roughly the same age. Yeah.
It sounds like we grew up similarly in that I was completely unsupervised until 6:30 p.m.

Speaker 1 When my mom got home from work, yeah, also not a great student.

Speaker 3 I did well because I was smart, but then I went to college, and that's where I realized I was a terrible student. I only did well in high school because high school was kind of easy.

Speaker 1 Okay, where did you go to college?

Speaker 3 UC Santa Cruz.

Speaker 1 I mean, banana slugs. I could have guessed that.
I mean, I'm mad at myself hiding. I really, I reek of it.

Speaker 2 What's banana slugs mean? That's our mascot.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so no grades. Pass valve.
No way.

Speaker 3 There were no banana slugs, but there were no grades at the time. But I still did terribly.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 Because I just was like, wait, study on command. I didn't know how to do that.
I was not going to hold still and read a whole book in one night. In school, I learned how to do school.

Speaker 3 And then I had a kind of a lack of foundational understanding of how to do rigor.

Speaker 1 And what did you major in at UC Santa Cruz?

Speaker 3 I started in sciences. I dropped out after two years because I lost all my scholarships.
And I went and lived in the Galapagos Islands for a year and a half.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 3 Chasing iguanas and learning about biodiversity.

Speaker 1 Okay, great. Yeah, just that.
This is where Darwin took the HMS Beagle. Did you do mushrooms in the Redwoods up in Santa Cruz? Absolutely.
Sarterboy didn't do great in undergrad. Fairy Village.

Speaker 3 Did you spend time in Santa Cruz?

Speaker 1 I went up there and bought a half pound of mushrooms and we spent a few days there. And then my best friend and I did a couple different walks through the redwoods on lots of mushrooms.

Speaker 1 And I was just talking about mushroom journeys with somebody. I said, I think my all-time favorite of all time was the redwoods in Santa Cruz.
Yeah. Very fun.

Speaker 3 Lots of really good fairies there who really want to help you have a wonderful time on mushrooms. No interest in you going to class.

Speaker 1 No, no, no. And those trees are very much involved as well.

Speaker 3 The redwoods are. And the campus is in the redwoods.
Between classes, you walk through the redwood forest. That's incredible.

Speaker 1 That's incredible.

Speaker 3 Which could be really grounding or also really distracting if you would rather go hang out in the moss.

Speaker 1 So after Galapagos, where do we go? We ultimately must get a degree because we become a professor at some point. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 I've kind of adventured my way into figuring out a way to be who I am and also be gainfully employed. So from Galapagos, I went back to school and was like, I'm going to finish this.

Speaker 3 I want to figure out what my own thing is. Also, because being surrounded by scientists who were so passionate about the research they were doing and about the work, I wanted that for myself.

Speaker 3 I was pretty bad at science for the same reason I was bad at a lot of school. Doing something the same way twice was just not interesting.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 So I went back to UC Santa Cruz and eventually finished in fine arts sculpture and feminist theory.

Speaker 1 Okay. And you leave there and then do you do graduate school?

Speaker 3 No, I was a chef

Speaker 1 undergrad. Oh my god.

Speaker 3 I worked in a diner, like literally the diner in the bus station.

Speaker 1 Whoa, flipping eggs.

Speaker 3 I was a short order cook. But then worked my way up, moved to San Francisco, was in a great kitchen, this place called Hawthorne Lane.

Speaker 3 And my three-month review review came and they said, we want to promote you.

Speaker 2 And I was like, I quit.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. Wow.

Speaker 1 You're really hard to pin down.

Speaker 1 I'd be like, I give up. I don't know.

Speaker 1 Or your parents.

Speaker 1 I think you have the perfect mom, though, for this journey. It seems from the adoption.
She's been nervous.

Speaker 3 She's been nervous from the start.

Speaker 1 She rolls with it.

Speaker 3 And tries, but yeah, she's always worried in a very protective way. Yeah.
And in ways that are supportive of me as a human, but also not supportive of the fact that I was weird and queer.

Speaker 3 And the artist thing is hard for poor families.

Speaker 1 Like for poor families, they want safety.

Speaker 3 You're smart. We want you to succeed.
We want you to do better than we are.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 3 Yes. Yes.
It was all concern. I just want you to have an easier life.
This was so many conversations we had. Really, really hard conversations with my mom were about.
She just wanted it to be easier.

Speaker 3 Even me being queer, she was like, I don't want that for you because your life is going to be hard.

Speaker 3 It would be so much harder for me to live as somebody I'm not.

Speaker 1 Pretend.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 Her biggest struggle for so many years raising two kids alone was money. So she was like, both of you are smart and you're going to go on and have jobs and not worry about money.

Speaker 3 Eventually, to answer your question five steps ago, I thought, I have a degree. At that point, I kind of had graduated from UC Santa Cruz.
I may have had like two credits missing,

Speaker 3 which was very disappointing.

Speaker 1 It's not a lot of credits missing. It's not very many credits to say.

Speaker 3 I still walked. My mom did notice that in the booklet of the graduates of 1992 or whatever it was, 94 numbers,

Speaker 3 there were the graduates. And then she was like, weird, where is Cass? And then there's the people who will graduate in the winter.

Speaker 1 Still not.

Speaker 3 It was seniors also participating.

Speaker 1 Oh, seniors.

Speaker 1 Interesting. Oh, my God.
Well, it's rare that you can say someone did a ceremony ceremonially. Oh, true.
Like you were just kind of

Speaker 1 pageantry.

Speaker 1 You weren't really graduating, but you were participating in the ceremony. I participated.

Speaker 1 Oh my God.

Speaker 2 I have a recurring dream all the time that somehow, I don't know what happened. Everyone graduated, but I forgot to like get some credits.
I was supposed to, it's a recurring dream.

Speaker 1 I have the same one. I'm finding out, oh, yeah, they let you walk, but you were supposed to make up two credits.
And did you both officially graduate? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we did.

Speaker 1 There's no foundation for this fear.

Speaker 2 It's so weird. I wonder what it means.

Speaker 3 There's the performance of it, and it often doesn't matter. What does it mean to like go to school? What does it mean to graduate? Being there is such a big part of it.

Speaker 3 So you can feel like I am just finished with this experience. But that doesn't mean that on the books, the bureaucratic end is finished.

Speaker 1 Right. Right, right.

Speaker 3 So maybe this is like a dream. I'm going to go ahead and just take a stab at some dream analysis right now.

Speaker 1 There's no reason whatsoever.

Speaker 3 Absolutely outside of my expertise. I guess now it's play, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 And say that there's a disconnect between the experience and the bureaucracy. So you're like, is there some part of what I'm doing well and how I'm succeeding, right?

Speaker 1 Because you're graduated in the dream that's not in line with a bureaucratic ideal that when you set your sights on something and it was challenging and you spent years working towards it, I think it's natural that you accumulate.

Speaker 1 Some anxiety around that topic. I have dreams where I show up on a set and I'm quickly realizing, oh, you're directing this.
Oh, I haven't read the script. Wait, is that a dream?

Speaker 3 That's a dream.

Speaker 1 I haven't read

Speaker 1 recurrently.

Speaker 1 But I have no anxiety as a director in real life, but none. I love being on a set.
I'm quite confident. But in these dreams, I somehow have been directing something I haven't read the script of yet.

Speaker 1 And I'm panicked. It's a good thing.

Speaker 1 It's kind of, I tell my kids when they have nightmares, your dreams and your nightmares are this beautiful way of your brain telling you what you care about.

Speaker 1 Because if you didn't care about it, you wouldn't be fearful it's going to go away so if you look at it just like oh it's a reminder of what i cherish is kind of sweet yeah i feel like it's kind of more like i forgot something important oh my god how this happened this was really important and i didn't do it yeah it's anxiety for sure yeah i think i'm just curious do you start work as a designer before you start teaching when i stopped cooking i wanted an office job i'd never worked in an office yeah and i think i was 25 or 24 or something at that point so i went to a temp agency.

Speaker 3 And at that point, I had a college degree theoretically, but I'd never worked in office.

Speaker 3 I had to take typing in high school, but I intentionally did really poorly because I didn't want to be a secretary.

Speaker 1 That was a job

Speaker 3 in 1990. Computers were not part of my life.

Speaker 1 Right, right.

Speaker 3 Or I never imagined typing would be about anything other than administration. So they were like, you don't have any experience with anything that relates to this.

Speaker 1 You're kind of useless to any employer.

Speaker 3 I was like, but I have a degree. So office job, right? So I was able to get a couple of different placements through this temp agency.
One was with AIDS WAC, a nonprofit.

Speaker 3 And there were a couple other nonprofits where the work itself wasn't difficult, but the emotional attachment to what the work was about. Sure.
I was like, I am too sensitive for this.

Speaker 3 I don't need to cry after a day's work in an office about the bigger picture of the work we're doing. So I was learning a lot about what kind of work I could do.

Speaker 3 And I wound up with this company called CRI.

Speaker 3 They were a high-end furniture company long story short i realized what design was and i was like oh i want to be a designer and also it kind of was started to make sense with what i was doing in my art in the meantime because i'd been performing a lot you were doing drag had you already been on mori povich that's coming yeah you had already been on moripovich

Speaker 1 happened while i was working with this high-end with herman miller because maury had a segment is it a guy or a girl yeah is it a man or a woman a man or woman

Speaker 1 and then people would come out be men or women or people in drag and then the audience they voted who voted

Speaker 3 screamed they screamed it's a man it's a woman

Speaker 3 it was a nightmare did you sign up for that yeah because that was like free trip to new york yes and your hobby at that time was drag right you were performing in san francisco yeah all of the people around me that were performing at this club they also did it the other way so some of the drag queens would go and they wanted drag kings so an audience screaming it's a man it's a woman Okay.

Speaker 1 And what was the verdict?

Speaker 2 I passed.

Speaker 3 Meaning they thought it was a man.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 And also, it was just a testament to how dumb gender is or how dumb needing to know is. Yeah, because they had a bunch of kind of misfits, butches and male presenting trans people.

Speaker 3 And then I was like kind of drag king, but also gender schmender. And then they had these, I can best describe them as really sweet gay boys who were drag performers, but their drag was as women.

Speaker 3 So they would kind of make them look like women and then put a mustache on them.

Speaker 1 So interesting. In order to try to trick the audience into thinking that they were like, oh my God.
The whole thing was just like they kept ratcheting up the state.

Speaker 2 Did you leave and were you like, what?

Speaker 1 I mean, while we were there, we were like, what is happening?

Speaker 3 It was one of their higher-grossing shows or bigger audience shows.

Speaker 3 So we spent three days giving costumes and they took us shopping to put us in gowns because in the end we were supposed to be exposed for what we really were. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It was so 90s. It is.
It is so 90s. Oh my God.

Speaker 3 That was a whole experience.

Speaker 1 Did you watch the Jerry Springer documentary that was on Netflix? No. That's fascinating.
Okay. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 It's so fun to watch because I'm regularly having these moments where there's such a disconnect. From what I lived through it and seemed completely normal.

Speaker 1 And now in this vantage point, it's like, what was going on? So I'm watching and I'm remembering that I watched it. It was like, it was over the top, but also it wasn't insanity.

Speaker 1 But now when I'm watching it, I'm like, oh, the show was just straight insanity. It was like one hour of insanity on TV every day.

Speaker 3 And maybe it led up to reality TV in a way, right?

Speaker 3 They're kind of instigating fights.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 So that was where we were kind of play testing reality TV.

Speaker 1 Who's the dad? Well, I wonder how that'll go.

Speaker 1 I just get two mansion. Sounds like really high.
Being potentially emasculated on television. I wonder what'll happen.
I wonder if they'll fight each other.

Speaker 2 It's like pre-internet. Knowing that outrage sells.

Speaker 1 They stumbled upon it.

Speaker 1 I bet I would watch the Maury Povich thing and be like, what is going on? But I know when I was in the 90s watching it, I was like, oh, fun. I wonder.
Oh, you know, is it a man?

Speaker 1 Let's find out.

Speaker 3 Originally, they didn't want me to break dance because they're like, that's too weird. So it'll be too obvious.
Kess is a great breakdancer.

Speaker 3 I did the worm. I had this really dramatic entrance.
I didn't know what music. They couldn't get my music cleared.
So they're like, we'll just play some music. I was like,

Speaker 1 okay.

Speaker 3 okay sorry that was just a very fun story i learned about you so you're at cri yeah they were very supportive of me going on maripovich they shut the office down to watch i had never felt so seen in my life i was like you want to what how's this going to go because i also felt like i was having to pass as a office person as a business person in ways corporate america person yeah and my friend lady sergio and i who was my drag girlfriend we both worked there so they loved us for who we were but we were still kind of like what kind of code switching switching do we have to do of course how far can we actually live out loud here yeah and that was proof in fact that i could be all exactly all of it yeah it was really really nice

Speaker 3 and so when i went back to school that was for design so i went to cranbrook also no grades very open-ended where's cranbrook outside of detroit it's in bloom that cranbrook bloomfield my sister went to the high school there oh yeah oh wow bloomfield hills the campus is gorgeous beautiful yeah and there's just a grad program there that's really small but very craft-based like everybody has a studio, no classes, no grades.

Speaker 3 You're just making art and having critique.

Speaker 1 Wow. Yeah.
Wow. How cool.

Speaker 3 And like reading groups and things like that.

Speaker 1 Are you learning the history of industrial design and all these different things? Is there any history being taught or technique?

Speaker 3 Yeah. And the technique, it was all peer-to-peer.
For example, I had a project that I needed a welded part. So I went to a friend that I met at lounge.

Speaker 3 There was a lounge where everybody once a week would hang out. And I approached my friend Vivian and was like, hey, will you help me weld these chair legs?

Speaker 3 legs and I'll teach you how to make a mold for that weird silicone thing you're trying to do. And she was like, yes.
And so it was all very collaborative in that way.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was great. So you got out of there.
At some point, you find yourself employed at a design place and they're using you as like, let's pull Cassin and get an off the wall take on this.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Similar to in the other office job.
And this was at Rockwell Group, very high-end, really successful architect in New York with all kinds of projects.

Speaker 3 I was working on a playground and they do hotels and lots of restaurants. Nice.
All kinds of projects all over the world. So that was really fun and tons of people.

Speaker 1 Inspiring people, I'm sure you were working with? Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Really inspiring. There were like 250 people up until 2008.
So it was also kind of how I got to learn how design works as an industry. Not as much industrial design.

Speaker 1 But like workflow of it, right? From idea to production to installation.

Speaker 3 From my studio leader, kind of learning how to pitch an idea and tell a story and work with clients and things. So that was all really fun.

Speaker 3 And the playground that ultimately I got to work on was kind of it. It's in the South Seaport area, kind of down near Battery Park City.
Oh, okay. For that, we wound up inventing the big blue blocks.

Speaker 1 The big blue blocks. Okay.
Have you played with those?

Speaker 1 I've seen them. I haven't played with them.

Speaker 3 I'm sure there are places in LA that have them. A lot of children's museums have them.

Speaker 1 So, you know, your standard block set, the wooden block sets with the triangle and the square and the circle, right? They were just very exaggerated size versions.

Speaker 3 What we wanted was that the kids could design the playground. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because you could move them and stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I was kind of like, kids are going to love a playground because A, it's for them. Yeah.
B, there's other kids there and mostly they can run and slide and do all things.

Speaker 3 So we were thinking about why do they all kind of look alike? Like these pipe and platform. I think they look like scaffoldings and also sometimes a little bit like jails.

Speaker 3 And so we were trying to think about how it can look different. And then I realized, who cares if it looks different? What's the play experience of the kid? And also, why are we designing it?

Speaker 3 What if the kids could design it? And so not just as a process for this one playground, I was like, what if the playground itself is the thing that kids are designing by playing there?

Speaker 1 Yeah, altering it, moving it, shaping it. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Really inspired by adventure playgrounds, which are junk playgrounds.

Speaker 1 Yeah, big in the UK.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And so part of what we were trying to balance is.
This was a neighborhood that we had a certain aesthetic expectation.

Speaker 3 So giving them a junk playground was not an option. However, we wanted to figure out what's the less visually messy and also kind of easier to maintain version of an adventure playground.

Speaker 3 So these big blue blocks are like a high-density foam. They feel like a yoga block or something.
So theoretically, there's hundreds of them.

Speaker 3 And every day that the kids show up at the playground, it's a different playground. They do what they need to do.
So they have so much more agency in their play.

Speaker 3 They feel really powerful because they're like, I made this giant thing that's bigger than me. Those were kind of ideals that also were part of GMO, not the scale.

Speaker 3 But so I was starting to kind of figure out, oh, here are all of these different ways to instill some of these ideals where there's room in the object for children to invent what it is and imagine what it is.

Speaker 3 Because increasingly toys are being licensed characters. There's these beloved characters and you can figure out what Spider-Man is going to do today, but it's still Spider-Man.
Right.

Speaker 3 And while you're developing your own identity, what if you could be like exploring identity through the toys you're playing with and not have it already have one based on the story that you were given, which again, adults wrote.

Speaker 1 Well, I think this would be a good time to explain. This is in my mind where you're starting to form a more cohesive theory on play in general, which is you start thinking, I'm not designing a toy.

Speaker 1 I'm trying to design something that will facilitate play.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's not really about the toys necessarily. Just as a designer, I think I like to be kind of formally agnostic.

Speaker 3 If the goal, and this is also kind of named by function, so there's this candle right here. And I could say, let's design a new candle.
I'm like, well, all right, what's the goal of the candle?

Speaker 3 Is it to light a room? Is it to make it not smell bad?

Speaker 3 Right. Is it decor? So we know that you're really fancy and cool because it's a black candle and it probably smells something like cedar.
Right.

Speaker 3 Maybe some musk in there, pinocchio.

Speaker 3 Right. So is it a status symbol? So you can think of like, what's the actual function of that candle right now?

Speaker 3 And so starting from that, instead of starting with the archetypical way that we do that, which would be candle, right?

Speaker 3 So if we were to redesign a way to light the room, that might be like, let's put a hole in the ceiling or let's get a bunch of fireflies in here.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You can give a great example.

Speaker 1 You'll say to kids that I wrote down that I like, which is, if you tell kids build a car, we know what they're going to build versus build a way to get to school, which is really fun.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Imagine a way to get to school. Then you're going to have dragons and unicorns.

Speaker 1 Poly systems and ziplines.

Speaker 3 And a river.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, I want to take a lazy river to school. Oh my God.
Oh, if you could could get in your energy.

Speaker 1 You know, they do these design communities and they're mostly kind of vomitous, the concept. Maybe just because no one's done one right.

Speaker 1 But if the entire way you got through this community was a web of interconnecting lazy rivers and you traveled solely by lazy river,

Speaker 1 I would buy a home in that design community. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I understand that.

Speaker 3 Everything would change if we wanted to get coffee on the way.

Speaker 1 It's so fun.

Speaker 2 I'm such a boring adult because I'm like, oh, STDs.

Speaker 1 Well, from a river. Yeah, it happens.

Speaker 2 They get transported through these lazy rivers and colleges.

Speaker 1 I think men tell their wives they got an STD from the lazy river, but I don't think that's how they got it. Can that be?

Speaker 3 I love that as you're like, yeah, but STDs. Like at every training, I'll be like, where should we go on vacation? Well, you know, who doesn't have STDs?

Speaker 1 That's right. That's fine.
Galapagos Island.

Speaker 1 Zero incident rate of STDs.

Speaker 3 I do think like that, very adult-y.

Speaker 2 But what about the risk? And what about whatever? It's so good.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and maybe it's like the hierarchy of risk. There's a risk every time you leave the house, of course.
There's risk if you don't leave the house.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 3 Are you risking physical harm versus mental harm? Right. If you don't leave, you're safe.
But are you safe? Then you're going to be maybe kind of sad and that's not safe.

Speaker 1 Exactly. Yes.
Okay. So here's where we get to our first little area where I do want to challenge a little bit of that.
Okay, right. So what

Speaker 1 I totally love about your approach and what I think is so consistent with all of us as humans is in the best case scenario, we adopt theories and we adopt work strategies to kind of address the needs that weren't not met for us as kids or issues we had personally.

Speaker 1 And I think our work ends up reflecting a bit of just who we are. So what you scream and what I like is, I'm not a right angle.

Speaker 1 And your work is very much like, don't give kids instructions on how to build this Lego set. And I think that's very valid.
And what I would want is for there to be that as an option.

Speaker 1 But also, there are future engineers, there are autistic kids, there are all these other kids that are like, no, they're fucking right angles.

Speaker 1 So the only thing I worry about is like when anyone shows up with any, and this goes into parenting strategies, classroom strategies.

Speaker 1 All of it, I fear, attempts to unify us and we're ununifiable and we're so different. So then the challenge to me becomes in a classroom on a playground.

Speaker 1 So Monica loves following directions and she loves,

Speaker 1 she said, how do I win this thing, right? It was like a joke and it wasn't a joke. It wasn't.
And that's what satiates her and that's what really makes her feel safe. And then I'm more like you.

Speaker 1 I'm like, fuck that boring way. Someone else already did it that way.
So I don't want to do it that way. So do you have an appreciation for the other versions or just a complete distaste for them all?

Speaker 3 No, absolutely. And thank you.
That's kind of the point that I get into in the book is that there's a misconception that free play means no rules at all.

Speaker 3 Part of what happens when we are encouraged or allowed to free play as children means that we are in touch with what do I need right now? What do I want to do right now?

Speaker 3 And then we're skilled in going to find it. And one of the things, and I do this a lot as a design professor, is help people find their own constraints.
I love constraints.

Speaker 3 Again, the idea with open-endedness is like, no constraints. It's like, well, you start with no constraints and then you find your own based on what you need.

Speaker 3 Or if anything's an option, then everything's an option which is totally overwhelming and absolutely paralyzing right so the thing about unstructured play for kids and open-ended play for kids is they learn how to find and make their own structure and also with rigama jig i talk about it as being open-ended and unstructured but it's not really the wood the materials nuts and bolts those are constraints yes right those create structure you don't need instructions i mean there could be the constraints but with the case of rigama jig or gemo the materiality of it as an object has constraints and structure built in.

Speaker 3 And especially when there's a system, rigamajig is a building system.

Speaker 3 So, in figuring out what the system is, you kind of start building something, and then before you know it, you have the beginning of a card or a monster or like a whirligig.

Speaker 1 Rigamajig. Can you see that in your mind? Have you ever seen Rigamajig?

Speaker 2 No, should we open it?

Speaker 1 Well, no, it's huge.

Speaker 1 No, you have a small one.

Speaker 3 Oh, I have a small one.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 Rigamajig Jr.:

Speaker 1 Hieroglyphic on the side. So,

Speaker 1 unlike conventional erector sets or these other things, there's no obvious thing that these should be assembled. It's not a puzzle.

Speaker 1 It's not a puzzle. It seems like a very random grouping of shapes and sizes, but there's infinite ways to assemble these.
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Speaker 3 When we initially launched it, it was a big pop-up playground. This was such nerdery, and it made the project so much harder in a way that I'm like, well, that probably wasn't necessary.

Speaker 3 But we used beams. We recycled industrial pieces from some of the industry that was near the High Line in order to make these toys.
So they had, they call them industrial scars.

Speaker 3 Like you could see the remnants of where a bolt was,

Speaker 3 which again is like the imagination. Industrial.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's very cool. Those are very successful during classrooms and stuff.

Speaker 3 And then we Rigam and jig junior is kind of the home version of that.

Speaker 3 And the thing, again, similar to with the big blue blocks, it's too big for one child to use alone. So they need each other in a way.

Speaker 2 That it becomes social.

Speaker 3 When we learn to need each other in play, it's a positive association with help and with collaboration and cooperation.

Speaker 1 And sharing, credit learning to share. We made this as opposed to all you made.

Speaker 3 Yeah, there's two pulleys. So if you're not using that pulley, can I use the pulley? I got to go ask.
We got to share resources.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Okay.
Okay. I want to get into the book, but I just want to tell you a personal anecdote you didn't ask for.
So I work on cars a lot and I also build a lot of things with wood. And

Speaker 1 for sure, my favorite part of any project is I get to a point where I do not have the part I need. And then I start going like, what do I have in my garage?

Speaker 1 And I start going through drawers and I'm like, oh, if I put that bolt through there, that to me is the euphoria of building. So I'm doing two things, right?

Speaker 1 It's like one is a cardboard has to go together in a certain way and a gasket goes there, but could a Cracker Jacks box be a gasket? The gasket's just cardboard.

Speaker 1 And that's when I just love it to no end is when I have to improvise and solve it. Even within the framework of the thing has to be structurally sound.
So I just very much relate to your agenda.

Speaker 3 My experience of that moment exactly is easy as boring. I could just go and get that gasket, but I'm drawn to, compelled by, and intuitively, I want to make this other thing work.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 I want to see how many rubber bands I can wrap around it instead of go and get the right gasket for this.

Speaker 1 Well, there's like a steam building in that for me, which is like, oh, A, I can't be stopped, even if I don't have the right thing.

Speaker 3 And flow, right? When you're in the flow of something to leave to go get that part takes you out of the flow of that you're in it and you've lost track of time.

Speaker 3 That's also part of what play is. When you lose track of time, you're so immersed in the thing.
You're doing it because you love it. It's pleasurable.

Speaker 1 Okay, so your book is playful. How play shifts our thinking, inspires connection, and sparks creativity.

Speaker 1 So when this came through, we get an email of the different experts that are potentially guests. And the thing we say most done here is playful.

Speaker 2 We're very attracted to playful.

Speaker 1 Oh, nice. I say it all the time, like, I'm here on this planet to play.
I'll have to do some stuff I don't want to, but my primary mission is to play.

Speaker 3 Amazing.

Speaker 1 So you define right out of the gates 12 types of play.

Speaker 1 And we don't have to go through all 12, but I'm wondering if you could tell us about a few of them, and then I will tell you the ones I like so much.

Speaker 3 Yeah, the ones I define early in the book are play types that I've used and I think are not universally, there's different versions of them, but that are used to understand and observe children's play.

Speaker 3 But they aren't called children's play types. They're just kind of play types because play most often is associated with children and the people who work with play are usually working with children.

Speaker 3 And so I had been using these play types.

Speaker 3 So things like rough and tumble play, locomotor play, creative play, which is kind of building things, pretend play, which is kind of performing or going into other worlds. We like communication play.

Speaker 3 And yeah, obviously you all take part in children's play types. That was probably like social play.

Speaker 1 Right. And one that's listed that I'm most grateful for is deep play.

Speaker 3 Deep play is one that I think really challenges the definition and the idea of play for a lot of people. Right.
Because play doesn't always look like big gestures of joy and celebration.

Speaker 3 Because in order to play, we kind of have to trust either our environment, ourselves, or the world around us and the people we're with. We become really vulnerable.

Speaker 3 And so children, if they're in deep play, are touching on things that are something they have to work out. Maybe it's something difficult in their household that's going on and they're trying to...

Speaker 3 through play, understand it, or maybe even heal from it.

Speaker 1 Or even we walk around with all this fear. So it's like, I might climb that rock.
I'm afraid of that rock. I'm afraid of falling.
I'm going to somehow play my way into interacting with this fear.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And how can you understand or get through your fears if you don't confront them? And it's safest and fun and enjoyable to confront them and play.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And play in general, we could just broadly agree with like it's something that has zero purpose. You're in one of the episodes of Abstract on Netflix.

Speaker 1 You referenced crows finding the lid of a yogurt container and then putting it on top of a snowy roof and then sliding down, snowboarding down, then flying back up. And it's like, yeah, crows play.

Speaker 1 There's no point to that. Crows can fly.
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 So that's just a novel experience for them. There's been so much science around this, often unfortunately, that used rats.

Speaker 3 Some of this science makes me a little bit sad when I think about half of the rats were kind of tortured. by being denied anything to play with or having to be alone.

Speaker 3 While in the other cages, rats had an enriched environment, which was things to play with. They had each other.
They had friends. They're fulfilled.
The rats that are alone and don't have toys.

Speaker 1 They love drugs. They love drugs.
Of course, they did.

Speaker 3 And some of which probably neither drive.

Speaker 3 They don't have a drive to survive. They don't solve problems well.
Eventually, they stop caring. They just don't eat.

Speaker 3 They don't want to solve the puzzle in order to get the cracker because they don't care. They have no drive to thrive.
There's a lot of rat studies around this, which makes that.

Speaker 3 And And then there have been studies that used college students instead of rats. Right.

Speaker 1 Basically, the same thing. A little bit less extreme.

Speaker 3 And we're not studying the neocortex development in these cases, thankfully.

Speaker 3 But similarly, college students, there was one study by Alice Eisen who put students in a room for five minutes with nothing. You're just going to sit in the desk.
for five minutes.

Speaker 3 And then in the meantime, another group of students had music and another group of students had music and puzzles.

Speaker 3 And so those three groups went in and they all did the exact same test in the same way. And the group with nothing did 15%

Speaker 3 less well than the group that had music. Group with music universally did 15% more problem solving.
And then the group that had music and toys did like 40% better than all of the groups.

Speaker 3 These numbers are going to be absolutely wrong, but it was something close.

Speaker 1 And it's in the book.

Speaker 3 And once I write it down, I'm like, good, now it's dead. I can forget it forever.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 But this is just to say, universally, just playing with a toy before you go in to solve a problem made you a better problem solver. Yeah, interesting.

Speaker 3 So there's just time and time again, we learn ways that play not just helps us have the will to live, but it helps us be more resilient and healthier.

Speaker 3 And there's all these other physical benefits to even doing play that wasn't necessarily physically engaged.

Speaker 2 Not to make it so adult, but I guess. That's also sexual role play.
There is a lot of figuring out your fears with a safe partner.

Speaker 3 Right. And that's a really good example of that's a learned taboo.
So I start with talking about the children's play types. And then I realized while writing the book that they didn't apply to adults.

Speaker 3 What's risky for a child isn't risky for an adult. Right.
And adults developmentally, we just need something so much different from play. For that, with that as an example, we learn.

Speaker 3 to feel bad about our bodies or feel like we can't be looked at or this is bad and that's good.

Speaker 3 So with sexual things, especially, we can play through something we need extra because it's been so ingrained in us what it's supposed to be or what it's not supposed to be.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 3 In the adult play types, there's kind of misbehavior play.

Speaker 1 Oh, interesting.

Speaker 3 Or behavior play in general. Yes.
Which you could say all adult play is misbehavior.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 To some extent because you're kind of not supposed to play.

Speaker 1 It's like intrinsically rejecting adulthood.

Speaker 3 to play. Exactly, which is in itself kind of misbehavior.

Speaker 3 But with sex, which is, I think, one of the primary places that adults play, we need the trust of ourselves and each other and releasing judgment in order to kind of then get back in touch with who we might be before we were taught that it's weird and gross and shameful.

Speaker 3 And forget about if there's religion involved.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 Also, you don't make up me all this, but I was just thinking about the correlation between when we transition out of children who are expected to play to adults who have responsibilities and perfectionism and all these other obstacles that prevent play.

Speaker 1 It also is right at the arrival of drinking, drugs, you know, these other offerings that resemble play initially. And I think they become the replacement for play.

Speaker 1 I think it's a big part of why that thing is so needed for us. It's a break from the adulthood.

Speaker 1 You're making decisions you wouldn't normally make. You're hooking up with folks you probably, you know, there's a lot happening.
And I just think.

Speaker 1 While you do wonder if everyone just stayed playing, when someone's newly getting sober and I'm trying to put a positive spin on it, I'll say the only thing I can tell you that was the reward of it is I did return to 12 years old where I was excited just to walk outside, leave my house and go fuck around in this world.

Speaker 1 Cause I had really just turned that all over to show up with a six-pack, that does the rest.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 3 In the book, I tried to talk about how can we, because booze is also a huge part of adult split, not just that it lubricates play for us, but I looked at and we studied and we tried to figure out this.

Speaker 3 My co-writer and I, Lydia Dinworth, she's been on your show. She wrote Friendship.
Yes. And she's a science writer.

Speaker 3 So she's really good at researching and finding and taking scientific studies and relating them.

Speaker 3 She and I talked a lot about how do we acknowledge this is an important part of how adults play?

Speaker 3 And also, how can we take the advantages or what is it about being intoxicated that lets us access play? And how can we get there without it?

Speaker 1 Yeah. I'm actually in favor of it as one of the options of play, but I think it very easily becomes the primary option of play and the singular option.

Speaker 3 Or like the play itself. Use that to then you see like conversational play, social play.

Speaker 3 But what my hope is, and part of what I kind of, the story I tell in the book is that we didn't forget how to play. We all still know how to play.
We have just learned to not play.

Speaker 3 And that's from coming up in school. Growing up means growing out of playing, right? So if you think about in school, we're told like, hold still,

Speaker 3 act serious. Pay attention.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And then when you're an adult, I talk about a play voice and an adult voice. And your play voice is like, go do that thing, be silly, dance because you love this song.

Speaker 3 And your adult voice is like protecting you, right? But it's like, no, you'll look silly. Social rejection.

Speaker 3 In teenagers, especially when we're really attached to and learn that we need to be socially accepted to some extent. And the way that that happens is just so intense.

Speaker 3 Plague becomes really shameful for a lot of people. So we have to unlearn all of that in order to get back there.
And I think that what alcohol often does is gets us there.

Speaker 3 It's like a shortcut to cutting inhibitions. And so there's exercises in the book.
Let's just get there without it.

Speaker 1 I'd love to go through some of them as they're kind of laid out in the book, if you're open for that. So what are the conditions for play?

Speaker 3 Well, for free play, I am a proponent of free play. And here's just to be clear, I think adults do play a lot.
Sports, pickleball, I think conversationally we play.

Speaker 3 When people are writing, if you're a writer, language or poetry, I think is a really great example.

Speaker 1 Debate for some people is play. For other people, it's miserable, but for some people, it's how they play.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Right now, attention play is really interesting and important for adults because our attention is often kind of by default in our phones or given to other things in a way that we're not as good at hanging out in the moment that you might usually pick up your phone.

Speaker 3 What is boredom anymore?

Speaker 1 Yeah, play is so often the antidote to boredom, but if we don't force ourselves to be bored for minimally five minutes, then we have no reason to require play.

Speaker 3 And our go-to in order to avoid boredom is to scroll. Yeah.
And that's just a bottomless pit of, are you ever going to find what you're looking for there?

Speaker 1 Oh, Cass, I had such a wake-up call this weekend. I had decided on Friday morning, because I don't have to post.
I don't have anything for the show.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to open Instagram until I have to on Monday. And I was like.

Speaker 1 shamefully embarrassed with how often I'm not even thinking about it. It's like I sit on the toilet.
It's like my thumb already knows how to go to that page and click it.

Speaker 1 And it's like, like, I'd be halfway through the steps before I go like, oh, we're not looking at that. It was like a full day before I broke just the habitual physicality of it.

Speaker 1 And then by Sunday, I returned to writing in my memoir. I like had a great day of creativity and I felt way, way better.
Yeah. I felt so good not knowing what everyone's fighting about.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And imagine if you had the muscle memory of play instead of phone.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I think of my phone as potentially a toy, but I'm like, am I using it as a toy or a tool, right? I like to use it as a tool.

Speaker 3 And when it becomes a toy, that's when I'm like, what's in the world around me that I could be playing with instead? For example, my dog. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 He's really good at knocking it out of my phone, knocking it out of my hands.

Speaker 3 Attention play is really for adults right now, great. And so look around, daydream, watch the birds, look at this thing and imagine how it was made.
I love the subway.

Speaker 3 Subway is my primary form of transport. I don't go on my phone on on the subway.
Increasingly, I am the only one.

Speaker 1 Yeah, sure.

Speaker 3 I'm imagining where are they coming from and going to, or how was that thing made, or what was that person thinking with those shoes? And I'll do a deep dive and try to figure out what's going on.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you have to create a little story that makes them make sense to you visually, which is very fun.

Speaker 3 In the bigger picture, if I were to name by function that attention play for me in the subway, it's about reconnecting and feeling connected to the people around me, which for me is absolutely essential for my feeling okay.

Speaker 3 If I were to go and scroll instead, I would be confronted by stories about that it is all the worst and everything is terrible, which things are not great. I think we can all agree.

Speaker 3 So I can go in there and lose all faith in humanity, or I could just look up and be like, here are some people that are having the best days of their lives and the worst days of it.

Speaker 3 I cry on the subway. I love crying on the subway because actually I think subway is maybe the only safe place to cry because eventually someone will make eye contact.
Like we see each other.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I'm reminded that I'm not alone in it.

Speaker 2 Everyone's there and they're stuck there.

Speaker 1 It's also very good to right-size your self-obsession and egomaniacal nature. I do remember we traveled everywhere by car when I was a kid.

Speaker 1 My mom, God bless her, she showed us the country on like 200 bucks. And I'd be sitting in the back of the car and I'd just be watching all the windows that go by as you're driving through Cincinnati.

Speaker 1 And as a kid, I would just get obsessed with like, well, every one of those windows has someone inside. And every one of those people inside has some dream.
And there's so many of us.

Speaker 1 There's something scary about it. And then there's also something that just right-sizes your own importance.
It's like, oh, yeah, look at all these windows.

Speaker 1 These are all these people have dreams just like you, or they all have these things just like you. I do think there's something helpful about that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 How do adults stay playful? Okay.

Speaker 3 So for adults, in particular with free play, embracing possibility, which means be open to what you might find at any point.

Speaker 3 For example, not looking at your phone, look around and be curious, releasing judgment.

Speaker 1 Walk us through that one in detail.

Speaker 3 Releasing judgment. So we are our own worst critics.
We came up through school and we were extrinsically motivated. Someone told us what to do.

Speaker 3 They told us how to be good at them and they told us we needed to be good at them. So our self-value got attached to success.

Speaker 3 So of course, as adults, we're going to be still obsessed with being really productive, which probably means like efficient. You don't waste time, no dilly-dallying.

Speaker 1 Look at all these efficiency gurus that exist. Oh my God.
People like worship these people. What are we prioritizing?

Speaker 3 Like to what end? And even like as a problem solving, I'm like, but is that a problem? These problems we're solving. First of all, today's solution is tomorrow's problem.

Speaker 3 Plastic, cars, everything that we thought was going to be, we're solving problems that maybe aren't problems. And we don't know.

Speaker 3 I try to keep an awareness of what we don't know, but we then have these systems that we're a little bit stuck with.

Speaker 3 So being playful and approaching things as play will make us more able to kind of shift and be agile when they aren't what we expect or when they don't work out the way that we want.

Speaker 1 Because we didn't create a singular definition of what succeeding would be.

Speaker 3 Seceding is or it has to be this outcome or it's failures.

Speaker 2 But I could hear some people listening who have these jobs and they have to turn in their thing to their boss on time because if not, they'll get fired. They're like, I can't dilly-dally.

Speaker 2 There's no room for that in this life. What is the response to that?

Speaker 1 Fuck you.

Speaker 1 No, because you can't get it.

Speaker 2 We have a show we have to put out at a certain time.

Speaker 1 Yeah, at times.

Speaker 3 Actually, I think those are the people who often need play the most because play is not the antithesis. It can be a mindset.

Speaker 3 So you can be doing your job playfully and A, lead to different outcomes if that's desired, right? Innovation comes from play.

Speaker 1 Yeah, talk about JPL. I think that's interesting.

Speaker 3 Yeah. So Caltech's Jet Propulsion Laboratory.
They, at some point, were realizing that that their engineers that they were hiring were not great problem solvers.

Speaker 3 And they interviewed them and kind of realized that a lot of them had not been tinkerers. They hadn't played with stuff.

Speaker 1 Model airplanes or model airplanes or even just like take apart the lawnmower

Speaker 3 and then try to put it back together or maybe not or turn it into something else. So they weren't tinkerers.
They hadn't used their hands specifically. So they started.

Speaker 3 in their interview process, starting to filter out based on, did you tinker? But really what that meant was, are you a playful person? Not only did you play as a child, but do you play now?

Speaker 3 And it's made a huge difference in the success of how innovative they are, how good they are at problem solving. So there are ways that if somebody is really like, there's no room for this.

Speaker 1 They make spreadsheets or an accountant.

Speaker 3 I kind of think spreadsheets can be playful.

Speaker 1 Oh, I would love to hear this.

Speaker 3 I had a friend who I worked with for a long time and she would make really sexy spreadsheets. So we started calling them Sex Cell spreadsheets because they were like so beautiful.

Speaker 3 And you're like, yes, oh my God. It feels so good to me.
So she loved making, you know, that was kind of her play.

Speaker 2 You just also need an environment where that's okay.

Speaker 3 Right. And there can be ways that the work life doesn't change at all.
But outside of it, she can kind of let herself play. A lot of it is like give yourself permission to play.
Totally.

Speaker 3 And realize that play might look like when you're taking a hike, if it's hot or your friend is slow and kind of annoying you, don't get so hung up on we're doing this hike. We have to get to the top.

Speaker 3 I'm so annoyed. Oh my God.
We only have an hour and I really want to do this. I really want that selfie from the top, right?

Speaker 3 So, maybe if you were to release judgment and say, We're out here, and also the third element is reframing success. Is success getting to the top, or is success that we're hanging out together?

Speaker 3 So, maybe we can just take our time or hang out on that one cliff and throw pebbles at the people coming up the hill.

Speaker 1 You know, shift the goal, shift the goal. Maybe starting with like, we can't fail at this.
We got together and we're here. Failure isn't really even a possibility.
This is already a big success.

Speaker 1 We are being social. That's essential for our health.

Speaker 3 It's so natural for adults to be hung up on success because 12 years of really intense time and then also college, if you did that, we're told what success looks like.

Speaker 3 And our self-worth and our value and our own understanding of our intelligence and competence is wrapped up in a success that someone else defined for us.

Speaker 3 Kids early on at the playground, that social hierarchy is really different because it's going to be the kids who are good at at play. They are the coolest ones.

Speaker 1 If a dude jumps off the top of the monkey marsh, you're like, what the fuck? Exactly.

Speaker 3 That person is a champion. Or the kid who can paint a weird blotch on the corner with the chalk, figured out that if you add water to chalk, it's like rainbow paste.

Speaker 3 That is the hero.

Speaker 2 It changes so fast, I feel like, into the bully becomes the stat, like the person who figures out they can be the loudest and meanest.

Speaker 3 Which is such an interesting segue to where we are right now, because I think we're seeing play get shut down by a bully. Comedy and satire is play.
And we have a bully who is shutting down play.

Speaker 3 And that, first of all, shows the power of play, that play is so threatening that a bully who has the power to do so is going to shut it down.

Speaker 3 And it's also a way to kind of remind us that play isn't a thing we do. to then be able to be resilient.
Yes, play makes us resilient, but play actually is the resistance.

Speaker 3 By playing, we are continuing to push back on anything that tells us that we need to not be human. Continuing to play is in fact also resistance.

Speaker 1 Well, this is where you get into man's search for meaning Victor's book, Esther Perel saying eroticism was the quintessential ingredient that allowed these Holocaust survivors to have lives after it.

Speaker 1 There's a lot of well-documented social science about it's not frivolous. It's not extraneous.
It's actually what will allow you to carry on or not. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 Or to be subjugated or not, or be defeated or not, or to be oppressed or not. These are really core antidotes to those things.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I think marginalized communities know this well.
It was interesting writing the book, people will say, well, why are you so good at play? You know, I'm kind of like,

Speaker 3 deep dive into like, why am I going to play? Well, as a child, you mentioned Latchkey Kid or just not having adults around. So play was all I did.
But also, I had a tricky childhood.

Speaker 3 I didn't know it at the time, but that was how I got through.

Speaker 3 I'm really grateful that I had a really strong drive to play because I think I would be a really different person if I hadn't played the whole time while all of these tricky things were happening in my childhood.

Speaker 3 And I see in my adulthood times that are hard. And I think also in protest and as a queer person, we play.
Queers are very good at playing.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 Because we have to.

Speaker 1 And it's how we resist. You'll never go to a better Halloween party than Western Hollywood.
They're the best one on the planet.

Speaker 3 How we resist.

Speaker 3 I, two nights ago, was at an unprofessional variety show with chaotic drag performers and comedians and all of us laughing and crying every once in a while because also it was grounded and we're all terrified.

Speaker 3 It was, I think, reminding us all who we are and that we're going to be okay.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
I have a personal explanation for it. So I have a best friend I've had since I was 11.
We both had dicey childhoods. His was off the charts, Dicey.

Speaker 1 And it occurred to me when he and I have fun.

Speaker 1 We can have fun in a way that's so elevated. Aaron and I can get to a buffet bar and we can be like, we just found a chest of gold.

Speaker 1 And my explanation of it is particularly when things are grueling and tough, when these rays of sunshine poke through, they're so powerful relative to the other thing that we learn to just dance in it, fucking grab onto it as hard as we can and just squeeze it for every drop that'll come out of it.

Speaker 1 We just have a commitment for like, when it's good, man, let's go. And I think that's part of the recipe.

Speaker 3 Recognizing it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And if it's it's essential, you'll do it.
That's my explanation being playful. It was kind of essential.

Speaker 1 And then I think the pitch would be for someone who doesn't necessarily need relief to still encourage them to be extremely playful, even if they're not necessarily in deep need of relief.

Speaker 1 Like it sounds to me like given your childhood, you needed some relief and the play was the relief.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and I think I needed big gesture.

Speaker 3 I needed to be moving around in my body outside of buildings, exploring, connecting, not knowing what I was around to balance out that school, the actual physical structure that I spent eight hours a day in was really just killing me.

Speaker 3 Soul killing. Still to this day, when it's a beautiful day out and we watch kids file into a school, I'm just like.

Speaker 3 And I have kids in my life now, so I'm sometimes the adult who's dropping them off and watching them go inside. And I'm like trying to feel like this is right, but I'm like, this is wrong.

Speaker 1 Like, what are we doing?

Speaker 2 They might like it.

Speaker 1 Yes, for some people.

Speaker 3 Absolutely. In part because that's where their friends are.

Speaker 2 Exactly, that's the most social place. I loved school, also.

Speaker 1 Again, some people are built for that. That's what they desire.
They want the list of things they can accomplish, and that's lovely.

Speaker 3 It's a matter of scale, it works for everybody. And like what you brought up: some people want instructions, and not everybody wants big loudness.
Some kids want to be in a fort.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more armchair experts

Speaker 1 if you dare.

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Speaker 1 A diamond is forever. Here on the show, we talk to guests about their past, where they are today, and what they want for the future.
And it kind of makes you realize you're never really done, are you?

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Speaker 3 The playgrounds that I design and the way that also I think about my own adult summer camp, which I have.

Speaker 1 You have an adult summer camp?

Speaker 3 We're play testing it with friends and a few groups. We've had a few a year for a while.
We're getting there. My play last weekend was to dig up the cesspool that had fallen in.

Speaker 3 And I don't mean a septic tank. It was a cesspool.
So we're like getting there.

Speaker 3 Let's just say I am aware what kind of accommodations adults need in order to create the conditions for free play to arise.

Speaker 3 One of the stories I tell in my book is about my friend Colleen and I, who I think maybe is more like you in her play. And she's also very engineer-minded, but we were doing a Lego set together.

Speaker 3 And I was just grabbing pieces and making stuff we're chatting catching up and at some point i realized i can feel her getting more and more annoyed with me then there's this kind of deep sigh and i was like okay what what's going on what and she was like you're taking the pieces i need and i was like oh wait are you following the instructions right and she was like yes dude this is what we're doing and i was like huh are you having fun and she was like yes i'm having fun but it was just like

Speaker 1 cast we're painfully similar one of our huge debates is we were interviewing this person who is taking on woodworking, and they were telling us that they were watching these YouTube tutorials.

Speaker 1 And I said, why are you doing that?

Speaker 1 You have a saw. You have the wood.

Speaker 1 What reward would there be in having someone tell you how to do it? And Monica was like, what's wrong with you? Of course that's what he wants to do. He wants to get good at woodworking.

Speaker 2 Like, how's he going to get good if he doesn't learn? Also, by the way, we had another person who chopped his hand off doing that.

Speaker 1 So, like, you know, I don't think a YouTube tutorial would have saved his hand. I don't know.

Speaker 3 And this is the beauty of being a really curious human. You're like, oh, fascinating.
Wonderful. Now I understand a little bit more about how you work and we're friends.
So this is great.

Speaker 3 We took a timeout and I was like, okay, here, I'll put my pieces back. And we did it together.
We followed the instructions. And I was like, okay, that was the thing that we did together.

Speaker 3 Totally different than my

Speaker 1 resetting your expectations. Redefining success.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And I got to learn.
what her play was. This is how we understand each other, right? We learn about each other through play.

Speaker 3 You two know each other because you're both conversationally so playful.

Speaker 1 Do you know I'm on the likes? Airplay.

Speaker 2 Oh, it's my favorite

Speaker 1 play.

Speaker 1 Receiving. You know, of course we see.
I was going to say, like, I don't know if you get to like necessarily.

Speaker 2 It's so nice. No, but I'm with you.
I feel like Legos I don't like because

Speaker 2 I actually am not very good at following those instructions. Yeah.
And then I'm like, oh, I can't do this as opposed to just being like, well, I can just make something random. And that's fine.

Speaker 2 I'm just like, oh, I can't achieve the thing that this is meant to achieve.

Speaker 1 But you can click those blocks together.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And it's so funny because then you have a toy that's telling you that you're wrong.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 3 And you're like, wait, I am a competent human and this thing that's meant to make me feel good and enjoy myself is making me feel bad.

Speaker 2 When you do

Speaker 2 it correctly, it's a pretty big high. It's a pretty big accomplishment.

Speaker 1 You know what's fun, though, is if you could think of play as being this safe area to experiment and challenge the broader issues that we all have you're such a great achiever and straight a's and all that but if you had a zone that you could safely dabble in fucking up family you know like it might be therapeutic or cathartic definitely

Speaker 1 and probably i should follow a youtube tutorial on how to make a desk like that would be my

Speaker 1 growth you know like that's how i could grow yeah do the thing that's hard and stay unattached to the outcome definitely i just wanted to say one thing that's a personal pet peeve so back to the play at work you're the accountant and how do you actually play so this is my grievance with the culture generally in the workplace which is i used to prep cars for a living for 14 years i washed cars thank god i worked for my mom and she valued play but I had coworkers who were annoyed because I'm laughing nonstop.

Speaker 1 I'm doing, you know, okay, how much to punch your uncle in the no, you know, like playing these dumb games. But yo, I'm washing cars faster than anybody.

Speaker 1 And what annoys me is there is some assumption in the workplace that having fun and playing while you are productive is not the right vibe. And that drives me bonkers.

Speaker 1 And I think a lot of managers are just threatened by the notion that you could be playing and having fun, but they're losing complete control as opposed to like, well, what is the output of this happy, playful person?

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 3 But it's also that we undervalue the benefit. That whole workplace was better off because of you.

Speaker 3 So say that you actually we're going to shift it slightly say that you washed one-tenth fewer cars every day and we valued efficiency and productivity over joy and cohesion of team and probably the clients would like to come there because you all don't look miserable doing a service or no performing a service for them if we understand that playfulness and social skills are in fact a value that could be prioritized and compensated for, right?

Speaker 3 Because I mean, we see this also in all kinds of offices where the jobs that are like, oh, you just make everybody feel good, but I actually crunch the numbers.

Speaker 3 And it's like, so why do you get paid more than I do? Because we're both critical to this working.

Speaker 3 So there's an undervalue of kind of social, forget about it, if it's somebody who deals with emotions, then we're really

Speaker 1 teachers. This is really bad.

Speaker 3 So, but there's an undervaluing of those as skills that people are often built for and also that they learn. And it's a muscle that we exercise as well.

Speaker 3 So I think in that that case like it's a really great example of that the playfulness made everything better it just wasn't a priority yeah so for people reading the book or people saying that i want to be more playful just prioritizing play and letting yourself play and then of course if you're so far removed from it you may need to do some work to find your play what is your play well cass i'm so delighted you wrote such a thoughtful and well-researched book on being playful And to remind everyone, it's called Playful, How Play Shifts Our Thinking, Inspires Connection, and Sparks Creativity.

Speaker 1 I hope everyone checks it out. Sincerely, I hope people

Speaker 1 could more increasingly prioritize it. It feels frivolous, and I just don't think it's frivolous.
Especially not right now.

Speaker 2 Everything's so serious. We need some of this back in our brain.

Speaker 1 I promise you, not a single human being will be on their deathbed and they'll go like, fuck, I shouldn't have played so much while I was here.

Speaker 1 That sentence will never come out of a dying person's mouth. No, I think I worked too much.
Pretty likely that might come out. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Or I didn't prioritize my family, which is often through play. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Or my people generally. Yeah.
Yeah. Your chosen family.
Well, Cass, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you.
This was delightful.

Speaker 2 I love it.

Speaker 1 Yes. Here's a him.

Speaker 1 It's very fashionable looking with you agree. Wow, just right this very second.
I don't know about it later.

Speaker 3 Yeah, thank you for playing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, thank you. All right.
Be well.

Speaker 1 Hi there. This is Hermione Permian.
If you like that, you're going to love the fact-checker. Miss Monica.

Speaker 1 Doesn't that sound good?

Speaker 2 It does sound good.

Speaker 1 It sounds like Foley.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But it was real.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. I feel very elegant right now.

Speaker 1 I mean, really elegant. I have poured myself a glass of sparkling mineral water, maybe? Uh-huh.
Artesian water. Yeah.
Artesian.

Speaker 2 Yeah, why do you have that fancy water?

Speaker 1 Because Ethan Sapli,

Speaker 1 one of my favorite people on the planet. Yeah.

Speaker 1 He's a connoisseur of water. If you'll recall, he's the one who figured out I didn't have IBS, that I was just allergic to

Speaker 1 Pellegrino. And he didn't even figure it out.
He just told me he shits his pants when he drinks Pellegrino. I was like, oh my God, that's what's been happening.
I don't have IBS.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it was a big reveal. So I guess

Speaker 1 he's a water connoisseur.

Speaker 1 And he texted me the other night, and it was like, the way he's just, he's like you must try this water oh and he was so like descriptive about it what did he say do you want me to read it i'll read it to you

Speaker 1 it's classic supplier

Speaker 1 i love people who are super into stuff it makes it immediate makes it for so much more fun it does yeah he said um very fine discovery with a photograph of the water

Speaker 1 I said, it's exceptional. He said, it sits in the glass, appearing for all intents and purposes to be a still.
And yet, when it hits your tongue, the effervescence is quite magical, quite delightful.

Speaker 1 I would definitely go so far as to say, exceptional. Wow.

Speaker 1 So, based on that, I ordered a case. Wow.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And it came that fast?

Speaker 1 Yeah. I guess that was maybe Sunday he sent me that.
God knows where he was at, where he.

Speaker 2 Well, what's the brand?

Speaker 1 Well, I don't want to like just be promoting a brand of water.

Speaker 2 Well, it's too late.

Speaker 1 Well, no, now it's just, okay, yeah, it's called Tahoe.

Speaker 2 Okay, great. Yeah, well, I don't like it.

Speaker 1 I don't want anyone to think that this is like some kind of in-episode ad. Well, it's not.
It's not. Yeah, but it's, you know.

Speaker 2 We talk about things we like. It's okay.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Is he right? Is it exceptional? You want to take a sip?

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, I think it's actually quite exceptional.
It has like the... Nicest balance of like the mineral and the sparkle taste, but also very flat taste.
Oh,

Speaker 1 right.

Speaker 2 I'm going to take one more sip.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like I would, I think they nailed it with the label because there's something about it that makes me just think silver.

Speaker 2 It's really nice. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's right. You guys want to read the coupon code?

Speaker 2 That is tasty. It feels like the bubbles are teeny, tiny.

Speaker 1 Minuscule bubbles. Yeah.
How do they do it? I don't know. That's why it's called artesianal.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Have you ever been to like a fancy restaurant where there's a water menu?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's triggering.

Speaker 1 That's why I'm like conflicted by this whole thing. But because it came from Ethan, who's so not not snobby,

Speaker 1 I mean, and also he's an ex-addict as well. So it's like, we can't get super into wine.
So here, what we got, we got walk. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it.

Speaker 1 You got to geek out about something, I guess.

Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely. Okay.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 you, what started off is a very nice gesture. You, well, I don't know how this happened, but what happened between you and Delta and LaBerry shit tea?

Speaker 2 Okay. We were outside yesterday chit-chatting, catching up, catching up.
And

Speaker 2 we got on the subject of,

Speaker 2 gosh, she must have been talking about some sort of stuffy or something. Of course.

Speaker 1 Of course. Maybe Groot.
Maybe ask her how Groot was or something. I didn't.

Speaker 2 I haven't checked in in a minute on Groot, actually. But I don't remember.
But then TT, your sister, said something about beanie babies. And we got on the subject of beanie babies.

Speaker 2 Oh, I know exactly how.

Speaker 1 There we go.

Speaker 1 Bingo.

Speaker 2 Someone brought up Pez. We're going way far back.
Yeah. Okay.
Someone brought up Pez.

Speaker 2 I don't remember yet how we got to Pez, but Pez came up and I said, You know, speaking of, speaking of being very into things, I said, I'm, I never got into Pez, and I'm kind of surprised, yeah, because it seems like something I would ride up my alley.

Speaker 1 Oh, it's more of this, yeah, shocking.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, it's collectible, colorful, yeah, candies, limited edition, candy, limited edition, but actually, the candy is the part that's that I didn't like that candy.

Speaker 1 Well, I don't want to get sued, but yeah.

Speaker 2 They can't sue me for my opinion.

Speaker 2 I personally don't like that candy, but I think Pez did great.

Speaker 1 Pez did great.

Speaker 2 You know, whether or not I liked the candy,

Speaker 2 I think they did great.

Speaker 1 But I do think you're right in that the appeal of it was way more the delivery device than the candy itself.

Speaker 2 I don't think I realized that at the time,

Speaker 2 which is a big mistake on my part. I thought it was about the candy, which I wasn't into.
Instead of realizing it's a collectible.

Speaker 1 And it's about the experience of administering the candy.

Speaker 2 And like the people on top and stuff.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more armchair expert,

Speaker 1 if you dare.

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Speaker 2 Anyway, so a big regret of mine that I never got into Pez. We were talking about that.
And so then we were talking about collectibles. And then TT brought up beanie babies.

Speaker 1 Because someone sent me a Pez dispenser for nicotine pouches. That's how this all started.

Speaker 2 That's right. An armchair idea.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Some two cute kids.

Speaker 2 That's exactly how this started.

Speaker 2 And she,

Speaker 2 yeah, so then she started talking about beanie babies. And then I naturally brought up LaBerry tea.
And I said, he's in, he's in the garage. And she said, can I see him? I said, of course.

Speaker 2 So we walked on over. And as soon as I, you know, put him in her little hand.
He came alive.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 She was like, oh, he's so cute.

Speaker 1 And to remind people in the audience, he's covered in shit. It's like someone had put a shit can in and spattered it all over his face.

Speaker 1 So the fact that she looked at it and went, oh, he's so cute is so Delta, you know?

Speaker 2 It is. I know.

Speaker 1 She'd see right past the shit on someone's face.

Speaker 2 I know. And she

Speaker 2 asked if she could take, she called it something. Vacation?

Speaker 2 Something like that. She asked if she could take him for a day for something.
And I said, of course. And I said, you can take him anytime you want.
You know, he's in your, he's by your house.

Speaker 2 Like, you can take him.

Speaker 2 And so she, she took him on an adventure and then she ran back out. She said, Monica, what's his name again? I said, LeBert.

Speaker 2 It's Liberty, but with Bear Bear in the center. And she loved that.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So then you leave, da, da, da, busy day again. Wife's out of town.

Speaker 1 She's got her first volleyball game. Yeah.
Which is hysterical. She had her first practice of her life on Monday and then her first game was on Wednesday.

Speaker 1 So we practiced in the yard and then we ordered food. Now it's crunch time.
We're, we're, we're cutting it close.

Speaker 1 And then for some weird reason, the place we order, always order pizza from, which is so fast, is like taking forever and ever and ever.

Speaker 1 I'm like, I call the place

Speaker 1 because I'm friendly over there. Yeah, no, it's in the oven, okay, blah, blah, blah.
So it arrives. I mean, there's a side thing where I got into it

Speaker 1 with Lincoln in what will be the first of many big fights we'll have throughout our

Speaker 1 relationship. As you, you know, you have a teenager.

Speaker 1 You guys are going to,

Speaker 1 there's going to be dust ups. Yeah.
So just the heat is on. we're in a huge rush to get out.
Like, we, we are, we are, where the pizza comes, we, we're scramming it down.

Speaker 1 We get in the car, and she's like, Oh, I forgot something. And I'm like, We don't, oh boy, we don't have time for you to forget something.
Also, everything's in that bag.

Speaker 1 I know everything he needs in the bag. Also, all you need is yourself, right? She runs back inside, and she comes outside with fucking bear tea and a Polaroid camera.
And I'm like,

Speaker 1 Delta, this is what,

Speaker 1 well, he's on vacation,

Speaker 1 and you have to photograph him because he went to a volleyball game on vacation. And I'm like,

Speaker 1 okay.

Speaker 1 And we get to

Speaker 1 the volleyball game. Oh, my God.
And every parent, like,

Speaker 1 we are about 30 seconds late. Okay.
So I'm already kind of embarrassed about that. Oh.
Also, I don't know anyone on the team's name.

Speaker 1 Like, I just, you don't want to be the parent that didn't get their kid to the volleyball game.

Speaker 2 Sure, sure, sure, sure. So I'm a little embarrassed about that.

Speaker 1 Sit next to the only two parents I know. And everyone seems to know every every kid on the player on the team's name.
I don't know anyone. I just was at that one thing right now.
All these things.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And then like big stuff's happening.
And I'm fucking having a photo session with Liberti, which I can show you.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God. We have to put it up.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Let me send it to Rob. This is really a Monica story.
There's so much to this story. Oh.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. What?

Speaker 1 My heart is.

Speaker 1 Big plays are happening and I'm missing it because I'm trying to get

Speaker 1 I'm trying to get a shot

Speaker 1 on vacation at the volleyball game without my hands in it.

Speaker 3 Oh,

Speaker 1 and lighting and shadows and whatever, you know.

Speaker 1 Now, here's the impossible thing, and this is just this is really Delta and really her mom.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 These two with these horseshoes. All right.
Go ahead and show Monty this. This is.

Speaker 1 Of course, she had a whole outfit for him. He's got a skirt, a bib, a cardigan, a hat,

Speaker 1 shit all over his face.

Speaker 1 Oh my God, I want to cry. And I can only imagine what the other parents think of me who showed up late.
I'm on TV and I spend the whole time doing a photo shoot with BlaBerti.

Speaker 1 I'm missing huge place. People are cheering.
I'm like, what? What happened?

Speaker 2 Wait, he looks so happy.

Speaker 1 He's kind of pointing to Delta. That's actually Delta just above.
Right there. Yeah, yeah, that's her at the front of the net.

Speaker 1 Okay, now here's the part where it's like, you know, some people just have charmed lives. So it's little, it's 10-year-olds playing volleyball.
Yeah. Nobody's getting their serve over.
Oh, sure.

Speaker 1 I would say

Speaker 1 realistically, 90%

Speaker 1 of the serves don't make it over. Okay, yeah.
Delta steps up for her very first serve, and I'm like, you know, no way she's getting it over. She started playing on Monday.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 She gets it over perfectly.

Speaker 1 They get it back. The other team returns it and then it falls flat.
But I'm like, oh my God.

Speaker 1 I'm like, I'm so excited. Her next time up, four in a row over, scores three points.

Speaker 2 I'm not surprised. She's a natural at everything.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 And like, it's, there's a lot in there. There's like Eckhart Tolle, Power Now.
I don't know what it is, but it's like, I would have gone in there.

Speaker 1 Like, it'd have been so important to me that I was good.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 And she didn't really go in there with that. I think she went in there to have fun with her new friends.
And then she was great. And then she like her focus was her

Speaker 1 vacation.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. I couldn't believe it.
There were three other girls out of 25 or

Speaker 1 26. Each had four alternates, whatever, a lot of girls.
Yeah. There were really only four girls the entire night that served it over more than two times in a row.

Speaker 1 Wow. That's so.
She was like a stand-up. She's exciting.

Speaker 1 Yes. I couldn't believe it.
And then one ball came her way and she got it. Like, and then they won 2-0.
It was the best two out of three. And they won their first game.
They won 2-0.

Speaker 2 I'm so proud of her. I'm so proud LaBerti got to watch that.

Speaker 1 It's incredible she can be athletic with that horseshoe so far up her ass. No, it's all love.
It's skill and it's painful. You know, Kristen went to her first baseball game and hit a home run.

Speaker 2 But maybe that's also skill. Why can't they?

Speaker 1 Well, clearly they have skill. Exactly.

Speaker 1 Obviously.

Speaker 2 I think it's just hidden talents.

Speaker 1 I think there's something kind of cool and metaphysical happening. Okay.
I think there's like karmic rewards for being

Speaker 1 her priority, it's probably for everyone else to shine and the other girls on the team. I don't know.
There's something suspicious.

Speaker 1 You just don't go to your first time ever trying something and you're like third or fourth best person.

Speaker 1 Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 Oh, and it's so cute watching girls play. I love it because every time someone messes up, which is almost all the time, everyone's like, good job, Carol, right?

Speaker 1 And even when it's like, they did, they would get a volley going. Now you're really, you're invested.
It's like, oh my God. And there's all, oh my God, they got it.

Speaker 1 And then someone shits the bed. Yeah, of course.
Yeah. Boys, 100% of boys are like, Michael Pace.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Wake up. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 This is like how boys are.

Speaker 1 But these girls are so supportive and kind to each other. And and everyone left in a great mood.
And no one felt bad if they didn't do good. And it was, it was delightful.

Speaker 1 I had a blast at this volleyball game. I cannot wait.
First, I was like, oh boy, we got volleyball across town twice a week. Now, no, I can't wait to go.

Speaker 2 Oh, exciting. I want to go to a game.

Speaker 1 Oh, you should.

Speaker 2 I'll bring LaBerti. I bet LaBerti is not going to want to miss it.
I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 Now back to, so that's not even my complaint yet. Oh,

Speaker 1 so that was the game, right?

Speaker 1 And then I drive her to school this morning, and Liberty's with her on the seat. And then we get out of the car and she's like, okay,

Speaker 1 you'll keep Liberty with you all day today. And I was like,

Speaker 1 yeah. And she's like, yeah, he doesn't.
He's on vacation.

Speaker 1 You can't just leave him. So I'm like, okay.

Speaker 2 She has a lot of ideas about vacation.

Speaker 1 Cause I'm like, I'm going to put him on the bed. Of course.
That's a great vacation if you ask me if he could lay him.

Speaker 2 Well, but he does sit a lot.

Speaker 1 She was very specific. specific that I needed to like incorporate him into my knees.
So here I am with Liberty. Like you and I were coming to that to the studio.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I was like, oh, fuck, I gotta, I forgot LaBerti. And I had to run in the house now and be like.

Speaker 2 I thought you ran in to get him to return him, but I was like, no, no, he should still hang out with Delta first.

Speaker 1 Oh, no, he's going to go see another, one battle after another.

Speaker 2 You're seeing it again.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. With Larry Jerling.

Speaker 2 Oh, are you going to the Vista? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 First time at the Vista.

Speaker 2 Oh, you'll love it.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 Can you take a picture of him in the seat?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I get mas. Oh, we were having fun with that.
You know, there's that, um, I think you should leave sketch where he says there's shit on the receipt. Yes.

Speaker 1 And then he's like, let's, someone goes, let's, let's get out of here. This place is covered in shit.

Speaker 1 So we were walking into class on the sidewalk

Speaker 1 and we were saying Luberte is covered in shit.

Speaker 2 I can't believe the outfit she put on.

Speaker 1 Oh, I'm sure he'll be in four or five others before he comes back.

Speaker 2 I was really not expecting to see an outfit on him. And she made it so quick.
I mean, I left at like two o'clock.

Speaker 1 And she's even explaining to me, like, yeah, so this is Ken's cardigan, but I put it on backwards. It looks more chic backwards.
Like, so that was actually in reverse.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it looked so good.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he looked great in a sequence dress.

Speaker 2 I feel unethical at this point. Um,

Speaker 2 bringing him back. Like, I think she needs to adopt him.

Speaker 2 I think I have to give, I think it's time for me to put him up for adoption to her only.

Speaker 1 Well, as the parent who lives in a house with too much stuff, if you want to keep him in here as well, that's also.

Speaker 2 I know. I know.
I understand where you're coming from as the grandparent.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we, I mean, the,

Speaker 1 we just, I don't know if we can be tending to yet another

Speaker 1 with this attention to detail.

Speaker 2 I just, though, like, I'll never be able to unsee him in that outfit, really living like his best life.

Speaker 1 Can you see if I did get back into show business and I'm walking into pitch projects at like Warner Brothers and I'm entering with three or four stuffies.

Speaker 1 I got grew with me and La Shitty and the whole gang.

Speaker 3 Say his name properly. Okay.

Speaker 2 I did. It is kind of funny, though.
Because last night I was thinking, I also was thinking like, oh, like, that was so sweet that Delta wanted to like play with him.

Speaker 2 And I already had the thought I was like she's she she should just keep him like it's you know I should give her that and now you see what kind of steward she is of it well and then this yeah it's just like fully irresponsible for me to be like that's mine and just leave it sitting on this shelf when it's living a big life with her that's kind of what happened with how Bree got Bilby the dog Bilby Bilbo um Mac Oh, oh, it was someone else's dog that she would babysit.

Speaker 1 Oh.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 she'd be out in a sweater at the beach with Bill B. You know, and the person was finally like, this is.

Speaker 2 It's not fair.

Speaker 1 She's doing a better job. Better job.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 As a parent, you got to know when you're not doing a job.

Speaker 1 God, I hope no one does a better job with Delta.

Speaker 1 I do not want to give her a rock back.

Speaker 2 I don't know. I mean, I guess you got to keep that in mind.

Speaker 1 I'm not open to it yet. Talk to me in some time.
Maybe when she's fully hormonal. Hitting the teens.

Speaker 2 yes oh my god well i am can you send me that picture please oh yeah of course what a great day what a great day yeah he's done more in the last 14 hours than he did his previous 20 years on this planet well i don't know he spent a lot of time in my parents basement doing god knows what obviously that's why he looks like that

Speaker 1 that was his like naughty era obviously his rum spring yeah yeah yeah yeah but even when you got him would i be right to assume you got him as a valuable collectible item?

Speaker 2 You weren't playing. I was not playing with him now.
Yeah, yeah. No, I was not.

Speaker 1 So he probably honestly did get more playing in

Speaker 1 yesterday. Yeah.
Yeah. He did.
That's a hopeful story. Like, don't rule off that you might have like the most playful in your older years.

Speaker 1 Yeah, in the twilight of your life. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, he lost his tag. I kind of feel like when he was in my parents' basement, it was like the height of his addiction.

Speaker 2 You know, he lost his tag. He got covered and shit.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he was doing, he was naughty. He was doing sexual acts.
Yeah,

Speaker 2 probably with the like, I mean, there were some other beanie babies down there. And then there was like some like a cabbage patch.
Oh, they're nasty. Yeah.

Speaker 1 There's still pool dirt diapers.

Speaker 2 Oh, maybe that explains it.

Speaker 2 So, you know, but I feel like now he's.

Speaker 1 Someone said in the comments that you and I are just, we've gotten too gross. They were like, you guys are just disgusting now.

Speaker 1 I think I have something about maybe my, getting my prostate exam.

Speaker 2 Whatever. That's real.

Speaker 1 Medical, man.

Speaker 2 People have to get their prostate exams.

Speaker 1 You don't like medicine?

Speaker 2 Exactly. You don't like science?

Speaker 1 You won't be saying that when it saves your life.

Speaker 2 Exactly. That's right.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, oh,

Speaker 1 that was an accident. For the listener, I just knocked the Liberti off of the armrest.
Oh, boy. Okay.

Speaker 3 Yeah, you got to remember he's smaller than Groot.

Speaker 1 I'm going to let him play with my phone because you know how kids love screen screen time. Yeah, that'll distract him.

Speaker 2 I wonder if what he's going to watch. I hope he doesn't watch porn.
I hope he doesn't slip into that. You know, I mean, he's allowed, but like, I just don't want him, you know,

Speaker 2 he's sober now and he's could be a

Speaker 1 slippery slope.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it could bring back some of the shame.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like if you look at your phone and it's like cabbage patch diaper research.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. You know it's bad.

Speaker 1 And then you get into all Jennifer Hanson's liquor in front of us.

Speaker 2 Reminder that tomorrow Beth's Dead is out everywhere.

Speaker 1 Guys, go to Patreon. How do people even do this?

Speaker 2 Well, no, they don't have to. Tomorrow it's out like

Speaker 2 anywhere you get your podcast. Regs.
It's regs. It's outside.
But it's out week to week. And if you

Speaker 2 stay with it. Yeah.
If you're like, oh, I want more. I want to binge.
You can go to patreon.com slash Bethstead and you get the whole thing.

Speaker 1 Oh, I can't wait to hear the results of this. This is exciting.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Cass.

Speaker 1 Cass.

Speaker 2 Cass. Okay.
Where can you find playgrounds with the big blue box boxes, you know?

Speaker 2 You can just search Imagination Playground. Okay, that's.
And then you can search your area.

Speaker 1 You can pop in your zip code, maybe.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you can see where you can go. Okay.
Play with those.

Speaker 2 Junk playgrounds, we said were big in the UK.

Speaker 2 They're not as big in the UK as they once were, sadly. Many are struggling to stay open due to funding cuts.

Speaker 2 While the concept originated in the UK after World War II and was popular for a time, austerity measures, lack of funding for youth services, and a move toward risk-averse traditional playgrounds have led to the closure or reduction of many.

Speaker 2 However, they still exist in some areas and have experienced a small resurgence in some places, with a growing number of adventure playgrounds popping up in the U.S. as well.

Speaker 1 Okay, great. That's good.

Speaker 2 Okay, well, according to the internet, you cannot get an STD from a lazy river.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I would like to do some further research. Okay.

Speaker 1 You want that to be true for some reason.

Speaker 1 You feel safer in a world where you could get an STD.

Speaker 2 In a lazy river.

Speaker 1 Did I already tell you that? Yeah, go ahead. No, what? That's.
This is now, I don't want to get back into the. Oh, boy.

Speaker 1 But did I tell you about when I was in the hospital and the doctor said we were in there by

Speaker 1 Wait, what? Oh, no one will like this. No one.
What? Okay, the doctor. Well, I'm in there with this doctor.
I don't know him. Okay.

Speaker 1 And he's trying to figure out what's going on with me and my prostate and everything. And he says, you know, anything we say in here is between you and I.
It doesn't leave this room.

Speaker 1 And I immediately know where he's going when he says that. Why? And he says, Is there any chance you have an STD?

Speaker 1 Oh.

Speaker 1 And I said, Oh, I wish. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Sure.

Speaker 1 Sure. I wish, I wish.
But no, it's not an STD.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 2 if you

Speaker 2 have been

Speaker 1 in rivers,

Speaker 1 a lazy river. But as we now know, even if I had been in a lazy river, I wouldn't have been.

Speaker 2 You'd been in regular lake.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no problem.

Speaker 2 I'm going to do some research.

Speaker 1 Okay. So you'd feel more comfortable because I think I even said, I think there's a lot of people that blame STDs on a lot of things that are not realistic, like a toilet seat and a this and that.

Speaker 1 And then really, they've just been hanky-panky.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's transmitted through intimate sexual contact,

Speaker 1 not sitting on a toilet seat. Not through water, yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, on a toilet seat, though, no, you don't have if you had a big open gash on your butt cheek, yeah, and then a big dump of the STD was sitting on the seat wet, yeah, but get real.

Speaker 1 Okay,

Speaker 2 what if a woman put her vagina vagina straight on the seat

Speaker 2 and secreted some stuff?

Speaker 1 Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 got the goo on there. Yeah.
And then the next person did the same thing. And then the first person had an S C D that you'd get it.

Speaker 1 If it was woman to woman, the second woman also rubbed her vagina all over the seat. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Maybe.

Speaker 1 But a lot of these S C D's, when they get airborne, they die.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's fat. It has to be really fat.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, I mean, you're talking about two women grinding on the outside of the toilet. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Ew.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, I'm just saying.

Speaker 1 And I don't want to generalize, but I don't think it's a ton of women claiming they got an STD from a toilet seat. Again, I think it's more men, and I don't think they have a vagina to rub on.

Speaker 2 Oh, they're saying it because they cheated.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. I don't know, hon.
I must have got it at the urnal.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, you didn't even know where I was at from the whole beginning of this game. No, I did.

Speaker 2 Oh, you did? I did then, but yeah.

Speaker 1 Now you're really. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I don't know, hon. I went in a lazy river.
First of all, when did you go in a lazy river? Oh, no, my birthday.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 1 maybe.

Speaker 2 Okay, so TBD on that.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's okay.

Speaker 2 No, no, I have to deliver the correct facts and you can't get it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you don't want to get sued by a lazy river manufacturer.

Speaker 2 But I also don't want to get sued by someone who did get one in a lazy river man.

Speaker 1 There's chlorine in there. They got a swimsuit on.

Speaker 2 It does say chlorine.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 Oh, fuck.

Speaker 1 I remember when I was younger and herpes was all the rage. Yeah.
Because herpes really hit the scene in the 80s. That's where it was like all over the news.
This new thing, herpes, herpes. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I remember they would say you could get herpes from a hot tub.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 But I don't know if that's true.

Speaker 2 They would say that.

Speaker 2 Maybe that's where all this is coming from.

Speaker 1 Herpes from a hot tub.

Speaker 1 That'd be a good band name. It would be.
Herpes from a hot tub. Yeah.
Yeah. Herpes is cute.
It's a cute name. A lot of these are bad.
Yeah. You know, gonorrhea.
Gonorrhea. Chlamydia.

Speaker 1 It's like diarrhea. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's gonorrhea. Plug your ears, people who are sensitive.
There's something about the word gonorrhea where I think I can smell it. Ew.

Speaker 2 That's disgusting.

Speaker 1 But do you agree? Yeah, I agree. Yeah.
I agree. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Chlamydia.

Speaker 1 That's kind of cute. Koala bears.

Speaker 2 It sounds like a flower. Like it could have been a flower.

Speaker 1 A chlamydia. Yeah.
She got me. I got her.
I got a bunch of chlamydias.

Speaker 1 Beautiful.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Syphilis.

Speaker 1 That one sounds rough.

Speaker 2 Syphilis. Syphilis almost is an onomatopoeia.

Speaker 1 And have you seen what happens to the, like have you seen the skulls from the people who died of syphilis in the 16 and 1700s?

Speaker 1 It eats away all the frontal

Speaker 2 brain

Speaker 1 white matter.

Speaker 1 The bone, the bone.

Speaker 1 It's all like, it looks like not even Swiss cheese, like termites. Ew.
Yeah, yeah. It's rough.
Rough, rough, rough.

Speaker 2 I mean, people do need to be careful. Like, I don't want people to go in lazy rivers.

Speaker 1 No, go in lazy rivers. They're really fun and they're safe.
Syphilis.

Speaker 2 I have an unfortunate thing that happened. I was supposed to check a fact and I didn't.
Oh, what was it? But I tried to check it online and I couldn't find it.

Speaker 2 And so I needed to look in her book and I meant to go find the book and I didn't. Okay.
But it was, it was the stat for

Speaker 2 the experiment she talked about where people like students took a some students took a test in silence some went when there was music some did a puzzle And then there were percentages about outcomes.

Speaker 2 And she said the one she was saying was definitely wrong, but that they're in the book. And yet, I did not

Speaker 1 retrieve them.

Speaker 2 Sophia would have done it. I still like you.

Speaker 1 Okay, thank you. You've paid no reputational price.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 And that's it. That's everything.
I've been playing with my gimo, the cute toys she gave us.

Speaker 1 I've been playing with my gonorrhea. No.
Oh.

Speaker 1 Can you play with your gonorrhea? I've never had gonorrhea, shockingly.

Speaker 1 What have you had?

Speaker 1 I mean, I guess I could have had it, and then I had antibiotics or something else and didn't ever.

Speaker 2 No, I said, what have you had?

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 1 I'm not going to talk about it.

Speaker 1 I'll only tell you stuff I haven't had.

Speaker 1 Okay, that's it. All right.
Love you.

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Speaker 1 Guess what?

Speaker 5 It's Mel Robbins.

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I riff. I cry.
You're going to love it because it's going to feel like I'm right there next to you.

Speaker 5 We're in this together as we learn to stop controlling other people.

Speaker 5 So thanks again for listening to this episode of Armchair Expert and check out the audiobook version of the Let Them Theory, read by yours truly.

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