Armchair Anonymous: DNA Testing

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Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Anonymous. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman.
Hi. Fuck me, guys.
You gotta listen. You're so lucky.
You gotta listen to this one. This is dynamite.
This is the most I've retold. Really, ever? Oh, I've walked everyone I've seen since this episode through this episode.
Yeah, there's a few. Oh, my God.
I mean, really, all of them are incredible, but there's one that seems impossible, and it's not 12 people maybe this has happened to yes this is an incredible over delivered episode please enjoy crazy dna testing stories this episode is supported by fx's dying for sex starring michelle williams and jenny slate inspired by a true, this series follows Molly, who after receiving a terminal cancer diagnosis, decides to leave her husband to explore the full breadth of her sexual desires. She gets the courage and support to go on this sex quest from her best friend Nikki, who stays by her side through it all.
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Hard times come and go. Good.
Hi. Hi.
Hello, April. Are you in a hotel room? I am actually at a place called Deloitte University.
I'm in learning and development, and I'm actually here all week delivering five different learning programs. Which one do we need to know the most? I just wrapped up one called Future Forward.
It was so fun. Lots of very interesting activities.
Lots of conversation about what the future of our workplace looks like and how to be agile and adaptable. All the buzzwords.
Deloitte, the big accounting firm? That's right. We have our own hotel slash university.
Wow, that's incredible. When you're there for the week teaching, they give you a hotel room? They a hotel room is there room service there is not but i will say they feed us well there are break stations on every floor there's a huge market a place called the barn oh oh that sounds nice they've won me back do the hotel rooms have tissue boxes there is in the bathroom i should have thought ahead and brought it over close to me.
Old me would have needed that, not new me. Not new anymore.
Because I don't blow my nose anymore and I don't cough anymore, no matter how bad I want to. I noticed today you wanted to clear and you didn't.
Yeah, I don't think I have yet since I've sat down. Much less editing for you, Mark.
Exactly. He's taken one.
Yeah, but we're going to lose something from it from it probably i bet the guest feels more comfortable that i'm so gross and disgusting like oh cool it's laid back this guy's a gross monster still giving off laid back laid back vibes i'm tank top i suppose okay so you have a 23 and me and or slash dna story april let us have it okay So I am one of four girls. So three sisters.
I know my poor dad. Your lucky dad.
Yeah. He's going to live six years longer because of that.
That's right. Girl dads are the best and he really is the best.
So I'm the second in line. And what first caught my attention as a child is that all of my sisters have blonde hair and blue eyes or green eyes.
My dad has this bright blonde hair and these really bright blue eyes. My mom, red hair, green eyes.
Okay. I came out dark, dark head of hair, really dark eyes.
Second born, we can kind of chalk that up to like, okay, there's some genes in there that are going further back. Like it happened.
Although if we are led to believe what we learned about Mendelian. Punnett squares.
Yes. The two greens and the blue should have all been recessive.
And we shouldn't have been able to have brown eyes with that mix. But there could be big R, little R, big R, little R making two little Rs.
So then there could technically be a combination. But since brown is dominant, you have to have two little bees to get blue.
So the mom had two little bees and the dad had two little bees. No one had a big bee to give.
Again, they might have oversimplified it for us. I thought about all this growing up.
There's also the fact that my sisters are all very rambunctious. They love to dance, very social.
I was like the anti-social child. Monica, I love to read Harry Potter, kind of off in my corner, very introverted.
So just felt very different. And then tack on to that throughout our childhood, we would go out to eat at restaurants or even in school, people would ask us how we were related.
We had the same last name, obviously, they knew we were. When we said sisters, everybody often asked, are we full blood sisters? This is mid late 90s, early 2000.
So that sort of got me questioning. I do feel different.
What's going on here? So I did ask my parents a couple of times. Is there something I need to know? Was always told no.
I asked my grandparents. I was always told there was nothing more I needed to know.
But I never let this go as a topic. So the running joke in my family to me was that I was the milkman's baby.
Yeah, yeah. Good.
You guys have heard the phrase. So fast forward, I've asked this question to my mom, even into my adulthood.
Yeah, because you're like, I'm an adult now. I can handle it if you had a fling.
Right. And there's something fun about the mystery of it all.
But same answer every time. I have two children.
Shout out to Brody and Brynn, their little arm cherries in the making. Oh, we love that.
I'm looking at both of them and I'm like, they really look like me and my husband. And they really look like each other.
Biologically speaking, now I can look at my dad and my mom and say, something's not adding up here. So I decide at 30, I'm going to take a DNA test.
I don't tell anyone. I get the DNA test.
I take it. It comes back several weeks later and there's nothing earth shattering.
I get some third, fourth cousins, but there is one person who comes up. He's a first cousin and I don't recognize the name.
So I messaged the guy and he responds back a couple of days later and he tells me that he's actually adopted. Oh, that's confusing.
Not a lot to go on. Yes, I was going to say your results, independent of any other information, are useless.
You need your three sisters to take it or your mom or your dad. The only thing you could have done is figure it out through this cousin.
This is where in the TV show that you take the hair out of the hairbrush. Oh, sure, sure.
I was trying to crack this nut without anyone knowing, just so I could have the results myself, but not break open any big secrets of the family. I was trying to be very demure, very mindful.
My two younger sisters look just like my dad. Older one looks like my mom.
So I talked to my younger sister and she said she's going to take the same DNA test. And a few weeks go by and we both get the email and we say, okay, we're going to call each other before we open it.
And we opened it. We are half sisters, niece or aunt.
What would be more confusing? You're a little sister's aunt. I got to try to figure out that on the family tree.
What's the feeling when you open it and you see it? I felt like this is my lifelong mystery solved. I knew that something was up the whole time and I was right.
My family is still my family. My mom and dad divorced, by the way, when I was 18.
So they're not together anymore. And I think maybe she doesn't know who my dad is or maybe she's just not 100% sure.
And that's why she never wanted to tell me. There's some secrets she doesn't want to confess to.
But now I have these results. I know for sure there's nothing more to hide.
And I want to know who the person could be. So I call her up and I say, Mom, Misty and I took a DNA test.
And guess what? We're half sisters. She really took it like a champ.
And she was very matter of fact. She said, okay, his name is Jim.
He was 10, 12 years older than me. He was going through a divorce.
He's got two other kids. I mean, it's just bombshell after bombshell.
She knew this guy. They dated for a little bit.
But here's the real kicker. She met him because she was working at a pharmacy.
And this man drove the Borden's dairy milk truck. He actually was the milkman.
Oh, wonderful.

That's so good.

It's got a bow on it.

And that was the part of the conversation that I stopped and I laughed and I said,

do you mean to tell me that I really am the milkman's baby?

Clearly she was still actively married to your dad because kids came before and after.

It was an extramarital experience.

There was a separation. She was only 21 when I was born.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, she's horny.

Of course.

Very young, very much haven't figured out life yet.

Now, did your dad know?

There's a little bit of some drama here. My mom says that he knew, but when I went and talked to

him, because really I wanted to thank him for knowing that I wasn't his biologically, but still

raising me the same as my sisters, never treated me any differently. He got really emotional when I had the conversation with him because he said he really didn't know that she had sort of alluded to it once, but then took it back and never brought it up again.
I got to really work through if I found out Delta wasn't biologically my daughter,

obviously I couldn't love her less.

Exactly.

Nothing there would happen,

but would I have any heartbreak

that I have nothing to do with that magic?

Oh, see, that's your ego.

Yeah.

I would feel deceived, not by the kid,

but by the partner.

The sexual partner.

Yeah.

You know, I just adore her so much.

I don't think I'd really give a shit.

I don't think your feelings towards her would change at all. Correct.
And I almost think I would be grateful that Kristen had chosen what she did because I feel this way about her and I love it so much. And I think I would agree with the decision.
But we're not divorced. And your folks were divorced when you told them this? They were not together when I told them.
And I'll tell you, my grandparents are actually who had the hardest time with it because I'm so close to them. And, of course, this is my grandpa on my dad who raised me side.
He will still find old pictures of distant relative family members that he thinks I resemble. He's still living in another reality.
That's okay. I love him.
He's my papa. And that'll never change.
Yeah. So did you go find Jim? I found him.
I got to give my younger sister a little surprise. I didn't actually mean to tell her in that way.
I just messaged her to ask her for her dad's contact info and I didn't give her a reason why. And she joked back to me and said, why are you my long lost sister? Oh my God.
The cliches are coming through. Careful what you joke about.
I did get to meet him and kind of hear about his family history and very pleasant guy, but my life worked out the exact way it was supposed to. Cause he even said he wouldn't have been in a place to be a really great father for me at that time in his life.
So it really worked out. Well, you have a great attitude about all this.
You just took it as I was validated. I knew.
So it's a victory and I don't feel sad about it. I appreciate that.
Now I know there's a history of breast cancer in the family. Never knew that before.
So these are good things to know. That's true.
Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, that was great, April.
Of course. Thank you guys so much for having me.
Would it be okay? Can I take a picture of us? Of course. I'm going to look in the camera.
And I'm going to flex. I'm not really, but a little bit.
All right, everybody. Stay cheap.
Wonderful. Oh, so nice to meet you.
Good luck with the rest of your week of teaching. Thank you so much.
Bye-bye. Oh, wow.
What a nice woman. It's a good person for that to happen to.
Great reaction. Because that could really take someone down.
Yep. I would have a very hard time with that.
Luckily, I look like my parents almost exactly. You know, I know enough to know I don't really know how I'd feel about it.
But certainly when I think about it, it wouldn't bother me either. I wouldn't be mad at anyone, but I would feel untethered.
I don't even know who I really am. Yeah, but you and I both are so identical to our dads.
And that's the only one you can find out. What if that wasn't my dad? Then your mother has a type.
Because she obviously fucked a guy that was identical to your dad. And same with my mom.
That means she fucked my grandpa or something. Well, I'm just saying, I'm such a shepherd.
It's insane. But I just think then that would be very telling for nurture.

Obviously, they are my parents.

So none of this is helpful. So knock on wood, they're my parents.

Also, I just read something recently that made me upset.

It's a ding, ding, ding to this.

Green eyes are the most rare.

You didn't know that?

I just wanted it then.

My mom has green eyes.

I want it. Okay, I'll ask her, I guess.
Can you check with her about how she did that? You could have had them. I think I'm right about that eye thing.
You're right. You have to have both recessive.
You can only pass on a recessive. Because they both have little R's.
Yeah, little B's. I like R's.
I think there are more genes than just one to determine eye color, so I think it was given to us a little simplistically. I think so, too.
But that was so fun, making those little squares. Hi, can you hear us? I can hear you.
Can you hear me? Beautifully. What name are we going to use for you? I couldn't decide.
Honestly, everything felt silly. So whatever you guys want.
Okay. You ready for a wild one? Yeah.
Brooklyn. I get it.
Doesn't she look like a Brooklyn? Oh, I like it. You have a candle.
You've set the scene. This looks like a spa.
Are you just out of a treatment? Are you just out of a Swedish or a deep dish? I really wish. Are you allowed to tell us what part of the country you're in, Brooklyn, even though we're using a fake name? I am in New Jersey.
Almost Brooklyn. Which is super weird because I kept getting Cedar Point ads today.
I don't know if it has anything to do with you, but I live nowhere near there. It definitely has to do with us.
Well, you're probably six hours away, worth the drive, in my opinion. Oh my God, do not do that.
Just go to your nearest Six Flags. There's one closer.
Someone wrote in the comments, they didn't acquire Cedar Point. They merged, and the current CEO is the CEO of Cedar Point.
It's Six Flags over Cedar Point. Everyone shut your mouth.
Okay, sorry, Brooklyn. Okay, so you're in New Jersey, and you have a tasty DNA story because you don't want to use your real name.
Yes. Just to accept the scene, my parents met when they were 13.
They had me when they were 21, my sister when they were 24. So they were always the cool young parents.
And everyone was always like, oh my God, your parents are still together. They're so young.
So fast forward, 2019, my dad was diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis. What on earth is that? It is an autoimmune disease that essentially fuses your spine together.
So it's super painful. It's not anything that's curable.
So at that time, he was going to a lot of doctor's appointments. The day after Christmas in 2019, we knew he had a doctor's appointment.
I'm home. I'm cleaning up after Christmas and dad calls and he says, I need you to come to the house right now.
I was like, okay, is everything okay? I don't want to talk about it. Just come over.
I immediately call my sister. I said, did dad call you? And she said, yeah, what the hell's going on? I said, I don't know.
I'm on my way. In my head, dad's dying of cancer.
Sure. Yeah.
Yeah. He was supposed to be at the doctor.
I am near tears. This is that kind of talk.
So I get to the house. They're not crying, but my mom, you could tell she has been crying.
So we sit down and say, what is going on with you guys? And my dad said, me and your mom were out today. We were on the way to the doctor and your brother reached out to us on Facebook.
Excuse me? So he starts telling us this story when they were 15.

My mom got pregnant.

He just hoped it would go away and it didn't.

They tend not to.

That's the problem with those.

They're kind of permanent.

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That's C-L-A-U-D-E dot com. So she has my brother.
They essentially take him away. She doesn't get to see him, doesn't get to hold him, does not know where he's going.
So this is my full biological brother from both of my parents. Oh, my God.
Oh, wow. And he's older than you.
This is crazy. Yeah, so he's six years older than me.
And so my parents are looking at us like, we are so sorry. I know we should have told you, but we never thought we'd ever see him again.
But we knew they did 23 and me. But we kind of just thought it was like for fun, not knowing they were looking for my brother.
But the funniest part about it is I wasn't upset because I was just so glad my dad wasn't dying.

Yeah.

All I could think about was like, oh my God, it's just a brother. That's really not that big of a

deal, guys.

It's a bonus. But I can definitely imagine for your parents, as I would get older and have kids

and have this experience with my kids, it would retroactively make me go like, oh my goodness,

our child's out there. We must see that child.

Also, if this really was you, let's say it's you.

It's me.

Thank you. It's me.
Can you imagine the kind of guilt because your life is really good and your children's lives are really good? And to think, well, what happened to that kid and what if they didn't end up in as good of a situation? That's a lot. I'm not shocked they were looking.
I think for them to hold on to that so much, you know, if somebody asks, oh, is this your oldest? And in your head, you're like, yeah, I was 28 when we found out. So that was a really long time for them to hold on to that.
So we end up meeting my brother. It was right before COVID happens.
We found out that he was married to his high school sweetheart and had an eight-year-old son. Just like mom and dad.
Yeah. But so the weirdest part of it all is how often our paths really crossed throughout all of our lives.
He was adopted by a family that's 15 minutes down the road from where I grew up. His adopted mother was a beauty queen and his father was the mayor of this New Jersey town that I lived in.
Oh, my God. They had two biological daughters before him and then adopted him.
Him and I commuted to Manhattan on the same trains all the time. We have the same stories of being stranded because of train delays in the same places at the same time.
My mom's cousins knew his sisters in high school. Listen, you're lucky you never dated them.
That's really... Exactly.
This is the most important part. That's why this stuff gets tricky.
Because you would meet them and you would feel this crazy familial thing that you would not chalk up to that. And it would be very confusing.
Exactly. My brother's a good looking, successful guy.
Is he single? No, I'm still married. Oh yeah, I forgot his high school sweetheart.
Damn it. Get her out of the picture.
His brother-in-law live a couple houses down from me in the same town. Oh my God.
This is bizarre. But your parents didn't know that.
No, they didn't know any of that. And that's what's so strange.
But there's pictures of my brother in the newspaper with his dad. My parents have probably looked at those pictures, not really knowing it was him.
Well, it's really great news that he ended up with a wonderful family. Yes, totally.
And then for him to reach out to us and see my parents are still together. I mean, he got two more sisters.
Yeah. He's like, I'm good on the sisters.
Is there a cool brother I can hang with? So have you guys become close? He was in my wedding. We've all gotten super close.
We've gone on vacations with his in-laws. Oh, this is lovely.
You can see my mom feels complete. Yeah.
And do they have a sweet relationship? Oh my gosh, yeah. My mom is like constantly stealing her grandson to babysit.
She annoys them all the time the same way she annoys me. And do his adoptive parents feel at all threatened by any of this or they're totally cool with it? They were totally cool with it.
His adoptive mom lives in Florida now, so she's not local anymore. And his dad did pass away.
But his sisters have reached out to me. They messaged me on Instagram and they could not be any sweeter.
So it was really a wild, cool thing. Big win.
This is. I'm really glad you didn't date.
Just really keep coming back to that. Yeah, just circle back to that.
Considering he's like a full brother, too. Yeah.
That would be really bad be real real bad maybe do 23 and me before dating anybody yeah let's do it in your teen years i'm scared to find stuff out on there though it's hard to find a partner if i really fell in love with someone i would not want to find out they were my full brother it's better to not know that i just don't want to know. That's right.
Just have a child that's a cyclops and then ask yourself, why did that happen? Worth it. Oh, well, Brooklyn, that was kind of an uplifting story.
Yeah, I liked that a lot. Life affirming.
Well, thank you guys for everything you do. You guys are not just my favorite podcast.
You're actually the only podcast that I will listen to. Good.
Don't stray. We don't know how we'll hold up to competition.
All the others are either too light, too dark. You guys really just kind of fit right in the middle.
Thank you. We aim to.
Delightful meeting you for real. All right.
Thank you guys so much. All right.
Take care. These are surprisingly happy stories.
I know. I'm kind of relieved.
Me too. But I want some bad ones.
How could they even go bad?

They're always going to probably be this, right?

Well, it could have gone incest.

Can only hope.

Well, you got a twofer coming up next.

What's that mean? Oh, two people.

Wow, this is a first.

Oh, this is exciting.

I'm nervous.

I'm butterfly.

I was going to say something.

I'm in gourd.

Dating your brother.

What if you found out you weren't related to your brother and then started dating him?

Oh, you're like, oh my God, this is the best news.

I've always been so attracted to you and I haven't been able to figure it out.

That would be a story, is that siblings found out they weren't siblings and promptly started dating.

But really, we know that's not going to happen because the pheromone exchange.

Yes, you mapped each other's stank stuff ew hello hi hi is this big a little a ron it is aaron you'll be our first dual caller is there a jessica also joining us she'll be here momentarily okay exciting now this cool painting behind you

there's a butterfly an airplane and it looks to be flying over like mexico city or something

what's happening in this photo just put that together it's kind of a collage she'll have to

tell you the story of that okay a lot is riding on jess's appearance she's the more charismatic

of the two well don't sell yourself short aaron where are you guys at we're on vashon island

Thank you. she's the more charismatic of the two of us well don't sell yourself short where are you guys at we're on vashon island washington state okay jessica has joined us jessica the painting collage what city are that butterfly in that airplane above oh he's facing the wrong way okay absolutely nothing that is actually a painting I did in college over a very ugly palm tree from one of those mall furniture decorating stores that you go to in grad school.
And you're like, sure, this is four feet by two. It's going to pick up the whole room and it's going to cost $39.
So I've just dragged that thing around for years. What is the relationship here between you and Aaron.
Well, we're going to tell you that. Oh, this is going to come up.
Oh, okay, okay, okay. Oh, we're excited.
Let's jump in. We need to know.
Technical matter. Jess, did you start recording? I'm doing it as we speak.
This is such a couple already, though, because she's like, you're facing the wrong way, and then he's in charge of tech. I mean, if I have it facing the window, it's usually just like a bright white nothing.
All right. So I've been selected to start the story.
So it's 1984. I'm 28.
And let's say I'm between things. I'd recently returned from a year of teaching English in the Canary Islands.
Instead of staying in paradise for some dumb reason, And I come back to the U.S. and then don't know what to do with myself.
So I move into my mom's basement and start driving a taxi. I also start dating a German woman, Kirsten, and it gets kind of serious, but then she goes back to Germany for work.
We decide, however, to keep dating and have a long distance relationship. Then one day in the local newspaper, I see an employment dad seeking sperm donors to help infertile couples.
It turns out that infertile couples means lesbian couples about 95% of the time, but I only learned that much, much later. Since Kirsten and I are being monogamous, this jerk-off job, as it were, seems both like easy money and a good outlet for my sperm.
I get hired and I wind up donating. They pay me, so I don't know why they refer to it that way, but I wind up donating about twice a week for a year.
Oh, so 104 trips. Probably a little less than that.
I tried to do this at UCLA because they were paying good money for UCLA sperm. And I went in and did a deposit.
And then they said, your sperm count isn't high enough. So you're more virile.
You're more manly than I was. My condolences.
Were they looking for a cab driver living in mom's basement? Despite that career profile, I went to Johns Hopkins, so maybe that helped. That definitely helps.
Okay, so at this end of this year of donating sperm, I moved to Germany to be with Kirsten. That relationship doesn't last too long, but in any case, I go on with my life, and I don't give the sperm donation much thought.
I'd signed a mutual confidentiality agreement with a sperm bank, and DNA testing doesn't exist yet. So I just assumed I'd never learn anything about any children born.
I don't ever get involved in a serious relationship and have children the standard way. So fast forward 30 years to 2016, and I begin to see ads for 23andMe.
I immediately understand that if I get a DNA test, I might be able to find my progeny, and I'm intrigued. But I procrastinate signing up for about a year.
But finally, I order the test, spit in the test tube, and mail it off, having no idea what the odds of finding any of the children are. A few weeks later, I get the results back.
Hold on one second. I do want to ask, when you spit in the test tube, what would have been your guess of how many kids resulted from these 100 plus or minus trips? I did do like a kind of back of the napkin calculation based on odds of conception.
It seemed like 60 to 70 children might be possible. Yeah, this is wild already okay so i get the results back and find exactly one child a son named bryce age 20 who lives in new york i was in pennsylvania at the time i see this result and i'm like yikes what do i do now i spend about a week thinking about what to write to him and he's also 23andMe, so I wonder if he's noticed me or been notified about my existence, and I wonder if I'm failing some sort of unwritten DNA test results getting etiquette.
I write to Bryce and let him know that I'm interested in connecting. I tell him a little bit about myself.

He writes back to me in about five minutes flat, and he writes back with an email that starts, dad, exclamation point, which is really alarming because I'm wondering what expectations does this guy have of me? But it turns out he's just joking around and having fun. Oh, okay.
He's got your sense of humor. He's very smart and funny.
We make a positive connection, and pretty soon he connects me with another of my kids, Maddie, who's also about 20, a daughter who he found through a different service. In fact, he's found in total five other children.
So I immediately go from one to six, except for Bryce and Maddie. All the other ones are younger.
They don't really come into this story. Bryce and Maddie and I wind up corresponding with each other.
We have like a Facebook chat going. We get to know each other a bit.
We exchange life stories and pictures. Our resemblance to each other is pretty striking.
There was no doubt that the results were accurate. But there are young college students in their 20s.
They have other things going on in their lives. So after not too long, things go dormant and we occasionally like each other's Facebook posts.
A few months pass, and then in early 2017, I get a kind of confusing message through 23andMe from a daughter named Alice, aged 11. But really, it's her mother, Jessica, that's writing.
And this seems like a good place to bring Jess in to tell her side of the backstory. Okay.
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That's betterhelp, H-E- this bank. So we picked a donor.
We had sperm shipped overnight. It comes in like a giant helium tank on dry ice.
You put on gloves and you lift out this little smoking half a chapstick cap of sperm. Oh, wow.
Okay. We went through that entire process and had our first daughter, Alice.
You have your first baby. You're over the moon.
You're like, she's obviously perfect. Let's replicate her.
So we used the same donor again and had our youngest daughter. And by the time Alice was 11, I was divorced and I was dating a man who coincidentally is also named Aaron David, like Aaron here.
Oh, wow. That seems impossible.
When he learned this, I was like, oh, they just made a mix-up at the Bureau of Boyfriends. And Alice at the time was really, really sick of hearing her grandma talk about like, oh, we're from Kent, we're from Romania, we're from all these places.
She knew I never knew my father. She obviously knew she grew up with two moms and an anonymous donor.
And she was like, you know what? 75% of me is a mystery. Why did you not know your dad? I just never did.
It was the seventies. I had a single mom.
It was not discussed in the Midwest and you didn't go looking because you're Midwestern, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a secret. But Alice is Gen Z and has no such qualms.
She just wanted the map of her countries. Being 11, she wasn't at the place that Bryce and Maddie as college students were.
She wasn't like, who am I? Where do I come from? She was like, I know who I am. I'm 11.
I'm cool. At the time, I'd never heard a DNA story of people finding adoptive parents.
So she asks grandma for this present for Christmas. Grandma is more than happy to provide.
And six weeks later, we get the results. And I click the DNA relatives tab and it's just father, 50% shared DNA.
My reaction was the same as Aaron's. You're like, what am I going to do about this now? He's probably getting a notification right now.
The clock is ticking. I Googled, I did what anyone would do.
I had no idea sperm banks had branches. So we had ordered from the DC area.
So luckily he went to Johns Hopkins because I found a guy on LinkedIn, right age, the right degrees in the DC area. So I went to Facebook and he had all of his school pictures, K to 12.
And I got chills at that moment.

It was no doubt in my mind,

here's my daughter with a 1960s boy full haircut.

I wrote him that confusing note and just said,

hey, I'm the mom.

I'm open to talking.

Write me back if you want pics.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

He wrote back.

He'd already written a bio for Bryce and Maddie.

So I read it to Alice and she wrote her own life story back to him,

which was very short.

But because she has 11, me and Aaron started texting. We just both found it fascinating.
We formed this friendship. Six months later that summer, because Bryce and Maddie are college age, we all decide that we're going to meet in Seattle.
He threw a huge party on the roof of his place and we all came. And I was cool with that, especially with such a young daughter that there were two other siblings there.
It was not going to be a big deal, but we all decided we were going to spend basically two weeks together. And Aaron does this huge hippie fest in Eugene every summer.
So we all pile in my car and we drive back down there and we go to this hippie fair. Instantly, Aaron and I were the parents in this scenario.
We're throwing sandwiches to the back seat. Do you have everything? Got to make sure everybody's happy.
We're both playing parents and yet we are actually the biological parents of one of the kids. Eugene was where I was living at the time.
He had been in a band in that area. He had commuted every weekend.
We could have passed him and the girls in grocery stores. We had some one step removed people in common.
So weird how close our paths had always been to crossing. So during that trip, we took a walk one night just to be alone and talk and sort of have our first date.
And it was like the wildest first date I've ever been on because we went to a cemetery by my house because all the kids are back in the house. You're on your first date, but you already have a child that's 11 years old.
Yeah. Right.
And what happens on this first date is most of it telling him what our, in quotes, daughters are like. Can I ask quickly how your ex-wife felt about you connecting with Aaron? Ex-wife was not in the picture at that point, but I can tell you for sure she would not have been supportive.

I got you.

Okay.

I'm a little bit more open about that kind of thing.

We went on this whole trip together.

We kind of played family.

So we came back to Seattle with him and we started dating.

And the rest is history.

It kind of progressed from there. You know, I met and got together with my daughter's bio dad 12 years after she was born.

Wow.

So how long have you guys been together now?

Since 2016.

So like, yeah, nine at this point.

Alice is in college.

Oh my God.

So you ended up Aaron raising your daughter from 11 on.

Only sort of.

Alice should probably be here to speak for herself,

but she has never considered me to be her father,

her other moms, her other parents, even if that parent hasn't been so great to her recently. I think Alice would double down on that and be like, that is why we cannot let her off the hook because gay family is family.
She was just like, my mom's already out of the picture and that really hurts. I'm not ready to pull someone else into that and risk that again.
And from what you've already told me about her personality, it's on brand. It's definitely on brand for her.
And it felt a lot safer for me. I tried to Google this and no one else on the internet had been in this situation before.
There was no answer to how do I date my kid's dad? Yeah. I tried to be a good mom about this.
And it felt better because I knew that she wasn't just going to like run into his arms and then it was going to end and I was going to be the worst mom on the planet. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That makes sense. Wow.
What about the younger daughter? My youngest daughter, what actually happened to estrange my wife and me is she withheld that daughter and abandoned Alice. So Alice hasn't seen her sibling in that amount of time either.
Alice is completely adamant that this child is not her sibling just because it's Aaron's. It's not like Maddie is now substitute sister or is as much sister.
We've kind of come full circle, like love definitely makes a family, but biology also can make some sort of family too. And both are not the whole enchilada and both are not nothing either.
Yeah, that's so true. Well, this might surprise you that the most shocking part of this whole story to me is that they keep the sperm for so long.
I would have thought I either had kids in that window of time I was jerking off at the place. I would not think there could be a 20 year span.
I actually found him because one of the vials they sent me had a date on it,

you know, January 1994. And I was like, 94.
I graduated high school in 94. It's 2004 when I'm trying to get pregnant.
I was like, he already had a master's by 94. Okay, here's his age.
Let's start Googling. I did not expect that that was 10 year old sperm.
They sold you expired. I got expired sperm, man.

Wow, what a story.

What a story. We're now aware of, I believe, 22 of my children.
Okay. 22.
Wow. I have a spreadsheet.
I've only met four. Does it stress you out at all? No.
Whenever I discover one, I write them an email and tell them a little bit about myself and say I'm open to connection. Though, strangely, other than Bryce and Maddie and one other, Emily, who happens to live near us, I guess we had a Zoom meeting with one family of three, but most of them just haven't been that interesting.
Yeah. Right.
Wow, this is a wild story. This really is.
This is the most interesting meet cute i've ever heard absolutely yeah after my piece was published in the new york times and jess also had a piece published by the bbc we did get some movie interest uh-huh i could see that i think the problem is there's not an obstacle in our story at all they They would have to invent that. Sure.
We're good at that. It's a creative license that's allowed.
We know how to do that. Well, you guys, this was delightful.
What an interesting story. What's the name of the New York Times piece and the BBC piece in case people want to read it? I think that might interest people.
No idea. But his New York Times, I mean, that's kind of how it got out.
He wanted to write A Modern Love with his creative writing degree on it. So there's A Modern Love that's like, am I in a chromosomally arrayed relationship? Oh, that's a clever title.
That's not the title, though. It is the Modern Love column.
And the title is First I Met My Children, Then My Girlfriend. They're Related.
Oh, that's nice. I like that.
That's tasty. I like your title, though, a lot, Jessica.

I don't know if that was a first draft.

That might be the subtitle on it.

Well, wonderful meeting both of you.

Thank you for telling us that story.

And thanks for doing it this way.

This was fun to have both of you.

Yeah, you laid it out beautifully.

Thank you so much for having us.

Okay, take care.

Bye.

Wow.

Meet cute alert.

I guess that sperm stays good for a fucking goat's age, huh it worked out yeah it's great alice taylor can you hear us yeah i'm sick so i'm sorry my voice is all you're gonna have to get healthy before we can talk to you you're gonna have to call us back i had some cold i thought it went away now it's back yeah these colds these are the new colds're for three months. That's just how the fucking colds are now.
Apparently. Okay, so you have a wild DNA story.
I do. I'm a twin.
We are the babies of seven. About six, they divorced, and my dad moved out with his friend girl.
He went to another state and kind of left my mom to raise all of us. And he made it really clear that he had left.
When I was about 16, she she was completely over me and my shit and so she booted me out here to live with him just me left everybody back where they were what about the twin yeah and are you guys identical or fraternal it's a boy so he stayed back we were freshmen in high school but i was a pain in the ass i have a 17 year old right now i'm like god bless her i know. I know I'm caught between.
So my brother was really, really challenging. And now that I think of his story and I write about it, I realized he really needed someone that had a lot of capacity to help.
I just feel bad for both people in the story. Like I feel bad for my mom and I felt bad for my brother.
So you probably needed a lot of help. I am so blessed by my children that I'm like, how did you do it? And she's like, I sent you.
I didn't. So she sent me here and I was nice and sassy.
And I was like, you know what? Why'd you leave? Like, what's your problem? Was she worth it? And he's like, wasn't the only one. For all I know, you're some Jack guys, baby.
I understood that this Jack guy was like a colleague of my mom's. I'd heard the name, but I'm like, you're deflecting.
You're just trying to take the attention off what you're doing. I was very much not here for it.
Also, Jack guy sounds like a term, like a certain kind of guy. Like he works at a guy.
Well, that would be great. But I was thinking more like he works at a mechanic shop, like he's jacking up cars or like a jack.
Different industries for sure. But yeah, fair enough.
He didn't harp on it. He never really had a lot of nasty things to say about my mom.
He was always very kind. He's like, she loves you.
But he was tired of being the only one taking the blame. And he kind of wanted to get his story out there.
But then we didn't talk about it again. And did he and the friend girl have any children? No, that happened for about a year.
And then after I had my third son, my mom mailed me my baby book. And the baby all these cards and crap in it.
There was a literal Western Union telegram, yellow with the tear on it and everything, that said, congratulations on the twins. I'm so happy.
Jack. Oh, my God.
This is curious. Yeah.
I'm a little curious. I tried digging.
I can't find anything, and I just move on. A couple years later, me and my twin decided we were both going to try Ancestry and 23andMe.
We wanted to prove that they were full of it. And everyone said the origins are off.
We weren't really doing it for DNA purposes. We were just trying to play with it.
And we were kind of right. His came up a little bit Irish and mine came up a little Scottish.
And then the rest of it was just Eastern European. Didn't think anything of it.
2022, I got back in this Jack fix. And I was like, I'm going to figure this out.
So I started digging through 23andMe, which had matches that were like fifth cousin nonsense. So I was bored.
So I was like, I'll log into my brother's ancestry because he would have different matches. And sure shit, I opened up, it says parent-child match, my brother and Jack.
Hold on a second though. Why didn't yours say that? Wait did ancestry oh you did different ones they divided and conquered oh i don't like to blow up my family over nothing so i'm like i'm gonna do my own ancestry because i had done 23 so that i can catch my breath you told your brother obviously he already knew at this point oh wow okay we don't live in the same state anymore so i just let it be and i didn't know how to process you know that's This is a fucking mess.
I do my own, ironically, Father. Okay.
We don't live in the same state anymore. So I just let it be.
And I didn't know how to process. You know, that's a lot.
This is a fucking mess. I do my own.
Ironically, Father's Day is the day I get mine back. I open it up and there is no Jack to be found.
And it says that me and my twin brother are half siblings. Wow.
Yeah, it's called Super Feet on Case. I don't know how to say it.
No. It's very, very rare.
There's like 10 cases in all of America. Whoa.
Wow. So your mother was carrying two different people's child.
Isn't that wild? At literally the exact same time. Yes.
What? I'm upset. Don't even know how to tell my brother that he's the only one of us seven that's not.
Well, do you know, though, the other fives, have they done Ancestry? None of them have. we don't know how much jack was in or out of the picture my dad has got black hair and blue eyes and my twin is the tallest out of everybody he's like 6'1 i'm 4'11 and he's blonder and so is jack after doing lots and lots of fun research so then i decided to go crazy on my ancestry and connect some more dots and just try to make sense of it.
And I couldn't. I couldn't connect any more dots.
So they have these things called DNA Angels. I don't know if you've ever heard of them, but like huge shout out to them.
They do it for free. They'll log into your ancestry and they'll help you connect some dots from fifth cousins all the way down to like maybe who your grandfather's father was.
So I call on them. I'm like, help me.
So she logs in and about 10 hours later, she calls me and she's like, I'm really sorry, but you're not your dad's either. What? Oh, plot fucking twist.
Stop it. Stop.
She's like, it's one of these three men. They're all brothers.
They connect to a grandfather that my DNA connected to. Mom was busy.
She sure was. U-S-Y- busy.
So I just started at the top of the three men. He's the oldest out of all of them closest to my mom's age.
His name was James. And about two hours into researching, do I not land on a photo of Jack, James, my mom, all at a conference the year of my birth? I mean, there's like 10 of them, but those three were in the middle.
It's like my mom was in the middle and Jack and James. And I continue to find out Jack was the president of this company and they were the trustees.
Can you now hold on? Was it a threesome? I ask that question a lot. I've done so much investigating.
The only thing I don't know is, did they take turns? Right. ESCS was one night and then the next night.
Did she like go down to the bar after? Exactly. Because it would have to be that fast.
There's a lot of permutations here. I think it was an orgy.
Even if she hyper ovulated, the studies show it has to be within a couple of days. Okay.
So have you discussed any of this with your mom? No, I haven't confronted her. You haven't? I told my twin, which kind of like ruined our relationship.
No. So he called Jack because I'm sitting on it for months.
And then he comes out here for our birthdays. And I'm like, so guess what? And he's like, mom got Eiffel Tower.
And I was like, that's not funny. What's that mean? What does that mean? She knows a lot of code words.
Just think about an Eiffel Tower. Oh, oh, sure.
Like a wobbly H, sawhorse. Yeah.
I don't get it. Oh, oh, oh, oh.
I do, I i do he calls this guy because i had this guy's phone

number mind you both these two men are married 50 years plus so they were married to these women

and they still are he calls them and he's like hey guess we parent child matched on ancestry

and jack's like your mom and i agreed we'd never have any contact with you so bye oh my god well

he's afraid sure and i'm not out here to hurt him but he could have been like here's a few medical

things you might need to know exactly minimally i'm sorry yeah here's 5 000 bucks jack

Thank you. But is your sister going to call? Because I need to tell her I don't want to talk to her either.
My sister calls. It's going to be a longer conversation.
He's not my dad, so I can't say anything to him. And then I looked up mine and he was once upon a time, the Supreme Court justice of a Southern state.
So I decided to leave that alone. And he's got kids and grandkids and I'm not ruining anyone's life.
It doesn't change who I am. But are you like, what am I? So yeah, what impact does this have? Because we've talked to some people today who have had this experience and some of them are like, it doesn't matter.
It's cool to know. And that's still my parent and I don't really care.
Yeah, I went to a conference on it. They're called NPE, non-parental event or non-expected parent.
And a lot of people are just crying like, the mailman's my dad and my mom lied my whole life and it's my identity. And I'm like, no, it's not.
You are who you are. Your blood's blood.
I grew up with step siblings. My kids have had a stepdad.
I don't identify with who was in the room that night. I identify with who I turned out to be and the people that cared to stay in my life.
I have great relationships with people that are blood and that aren't. I'm bummed.
And I can see why my mom always had just this undercover. I'm not so sure about her.
Get rid of her. She just didn't like me.
I can't imagine though that she assumed the twins were from two different men, even though she had sex with two different people. There's no way.
That would just not only spoil her, your dad left and cheated. Not only did he do that, but you doubled down, you know, and to tear down a woman in her late seventies.
It's just like, what's the point? I told one of my sisters, the other sibs don't know, and she's like, you've got to tell her. And I'm like, no, I don't.
I mean, the only reason I think to tell her is she is a medical marvel. History.
Literally. I mean, there probably is just 50 cases this has ever happened.
Yeah. I think that they said in just America, there's 12.
And then the other countries, there's more, but you don't have a lot of documentation on this. How many twins both do it? You just assume one's DNA is the others.
Wow. This is twisty and turny.
Growing up though, did you think you and your twin had twin abilities? Well, they did share a mom. Right.
And like we shared a room and we shared a lot of time together. And I always thought we had this special bond.
Are you left-handed? No. My little boy is though.
Maybe he'll be president. Sure.
Over index. What a story.
Oh my God. That's a barn burner.
Thank you so much for sharing it. Yeah.
Yeah, you guys. It was super fun.
I do need to give a shout out to one of my friends, Rebecca.

She actually used your story to ask about dyslexia, and she gives it to her students at the elementary school she teaches at.

And she loves, loves, loves you guys.

She got me interested in you guys' podcast.

Thank you, Rebecca.

Yeah, that's lovely.

Shout out.

Well, lovely meeting you.

I'll be thinking about that one for a while.

That one's going to stick.

Yep. Have a great day.
Take care. Feel better.
Thank you. Bye.
This one really got out of hand. I feel like we need to do this again.
I'm sweating. Four for four.
They also grew in intensity. Yeah.
There was like a natural progression that felt scripted. Yeah.
Oh, my God. A show.
Bon ami. Bon ami.

Joie de vie.

Faut les foues français.

Faire les mes bouches.

Are you gonna go look into your DNA?

I feel like now I'm not anyone's, don't you?

All those stories just make you feel like, oh shit.

Who are my, everyone. Who am I?

Who's my mom?

Isn't that in the book, Aren't You My Mother or something?

Yeah, are you my mom?

Are you my mom?

I thought it was Are You My Mother. She has a turtle.
It could be mother, but. It's mother.
Fuck. Sorry.
Yeah, that's so formal. Sorry and thank you.
No wonder people said no. They're like, you're stuck up.
I'm your mother. I'm your mom.
Mother? If you didn't grow up with them, they're your mother. The little bird asks a bulldozer if it's his mother.
Are you my mother's a very sweet story all right love you love you do you want to sing a tune or something we don't have a theme song okay great we don't have a theme song for this new show so here i go go go we're gonna ask some random questions and with the help of armchairs we'll get some suggestions on the flyer rindish on the flyer rindish enjoy follow armchair expert on the wondry app amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad-ery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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