Angel Mama ft. Heather Lohmeyer

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Welcome to the shit show.

Things are going to get weird.

It's your fae villain, Kale Lauer.

And you're listening to Barely Famous.

Hello, Heather.

Welcome to Barely Famous Podcast.

Hello, Kale.

I feel like this has been a long time coming.

Agreed.

Not necessarily this topic, but just having you on the podcast in general, because you've been a huge fan and a huge supporter of the shows over the years, from coffee combos, even baby mamas, and now barely famous, the southern tea, vibin, all of them.

And so fun, I wanted to say I appreciate you and I love you and I love all the support that you show me and all the girls on the team.

So I'm happy to have you.

Thank you so much for having me today.

Can we just take a minute and celebrate Killer Network right now?

Because I am just so happy for you.

I was in tears last night.

Just so happy and excited for all the downloads that you have hit.

It is truly just amazing what you are doing with your company.

Thank you.

It would not be possible without all the girls and the team, Kristen, El Sandra.

It's been, you know, really incredible working with all women too.

And occasionally, Chandler, he's the only guy.

And we don't see him as often as we would like to, but it wouldn't be as successful as it is without people like you.

So I think the feelings are mutual.

So, I think I can speak for the entire team when I say that we are so thankful for you.

Thank you so much.

You guys have really helped change my life, and we'll talk about that a little bit today.

But

I am just forever grateful.

And if I would have put money on my favorite teen mom back in the day, I would be a millionaire today.

So, I'm just gonna throw that out there.

School is always my favorite.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

And today we're going to talk about a really, really important topic and struggle for so many women and families, which is infant loss and pregnancy loss.

I don't know if they're not really considered the same thing, right?

Infant loss is very different.

And that's something that you shared with me.

And so

I don't want to be the one to tell your story.

So if you don't mind telling your story, sure.

I would love to obviously put a trigger warning out there for any mamas who are pregnant right now, anyone who's recently gone through a loss, because some of the things we're going to talk about today are a little difficult to hear.

And, you know, even saying that, saying I have to put a trigger warning out there before talking about my own child, that is difficult in itself.

But I really feel like this is a very important story.

and message that you have graciously given me the opportunity to get out there.

And so, to start just a little bit of background with my story, my husband and I met in 2018.

We got married during COVID wedding season in 2020.

And so, our honeymoon was delayed for a whole year.

So, then we took our honeymoon in 2021 to Disney World.

And that is actually where our first child, McKinseley, was conceived at.

And so I went the whole pregnancy.

It was my very first pregnancy at the age of 32.

So we felt like we were extremely behind everybody in real time.

We felt like we were going to be very old parents.

So zero complications through the entire pregnancy, really, just the normal morning sickness,

but nothing

bad at all.

And I live in Kansas and I was 30, I was turning 38 weeks pregnant, and there was actually a really bad snowstorm.

And so they canceled my weekly sonogram for that week,

which wasn't a big deal.

But unfortunately, over that weekend, my husband Ben made me breakfast.

And after he made me breakfast, I didn't feel McKinseley kicking.

And so I thought that that was a little odd.

And it was a Sunday.

So I contacted my doctor's office and they told me I should just go in.

We had had our hospital bags packed for a very long time.

I'm a big planner, so we just grabbed our bags and went.

On the way there, I was extremely nervous.

I remember praying the whole way there.

And when we got there, they brought in the first doctor and then they brought in a second doctor and a third doctor.

And by the fourth doctor, the fourth doctor told us that there was no heartbeat anymore so

while you are this is your first pregnancy right so you first you didn't have to get through but it sounds like so far it sounds like you sort of had a feeling because you were really nervous the whole way there

yes and thinking back to

you know, and I, all my pregnancies, that was something that was like, okay, well, they could be in the birth canal.

So that's maybe why, like, they're going to start making their way out.

And so I think, and I don't want to speak for every mom out there because that's the, I'm just going to speak for myself.

Was like, you know, maybe that for us, we are not thinking worst case scenario.

We're thinking, oh, we're close to the due date.

So maybe this means that we're about to go into labor.

And I was at 38 weeks.

So I was full term.

I was at the finish line.

And so when the doctor told us, I mean, my husband still says he can hear it.

I just let out the most imaginable scream ever.

And I remember screaming, like, oh my God, we had to call our parents.

They were all at church because it was a Sunday.

Everybody rushed up to the hospital and they couldn't give us any answers.

They couldn't tell us why.

The only thing I was told is that I was going to have to deliver her knowing that she was gone already.

And

could they do a C-section?

They did not do a C-section.

So what happened was she was actually transverse.

So she was still sideways.

She wasn't even head down yet.

And so they had to manually break my water.

They waited till the following day, but they had to actually break my water and put me into labor.

And then they delivered her stillborn, already knowing that she passed away.

Why did they wait until the next day?

And

why did they not do a C-section for that?

Do you have answers to that?

Or you have no idea?

I don't.

I think that if a C-section would have been necessary, they would have done it, but that wasn't even something that they talked to me about.

So I'm not 100% for sure on that.

I know they wanted to try to get her turned head down, which they did.

And my labor was about four hours from start to finish.

And so it's just very traumatic to even go through.

I don't have an answer as to why they waited waited till the next day.

I don't know because we had a lot of family up there.

Our pastor came up there to pray with us.

Ben and I were trying to understand exactly what was going on.

And so they just set it up for the day after in the morning.

And what's crazy is that the day that we're doing this recording marks three days, or I'm sorry, three years from that exact.

So it's three years today that we found out we lost.

And you sort of still don't have answers.

So before you were getting weekly ultrasounds towards the end of your pregnancy, was that because you were high risk, or was that just because you were towards the end of your pregnancy?

It was just toward the end of the end of the pregnancy.

So, just because that was actually going to be my first weekly one, it was two weeks prior to the one I missed because of the snowstorm.

But when I finally delivered McKinseley, they did see a teeny, tiny kink in the umbilical cord.

And that is what happened.

And do they say what causes the kink or it's just sort of something that can happen?

It's just one of those things that can unfortunately happen.

You know, at least that's what I was told.

I don't know if they can catch those things on an ultrasound.

Some doctors asked more questions and some doctors have told me yes.

Some have said no.

So I don't really have a clear answer on that.

But it's hard to think the what ifs.

What if the snow didn't come and I still had my weekly checkup?

Would they have caught something?

I don't know the answer to that.

When I read your initial email with your story and you said it was kind of hard for you to still think about that, what if you had that ultrasound?

The same thing sort of went through my head.

Like, would they have been able to see maybe a decrease in blood flow?

Would they have been able to see a slowed heart rate?

Like, is there just anything?

And I cannot imagine the feeling of living in

that what if space and and the guilt that must come with it even though you have to know it was not your fault.

It was truly nobody's fault.

It's hard because the blame game happens.

I can think of every detail leading up to that day.

You know, you think, did I sleep wrong?

Did I eat wrong?

Did I move wrong?

You know,

you blame yourself and your body, like, and this is what we're made to do.

Our bodies are supposed to be able to give children life.

And so when my body didn't do that, it was just really confusing.

And I remember after delivering her, everybody around me was just talking about funeral arrangements.

And

I couldn't, my head couldn't figure out what was going on.

I had just given birth for the first time.

And everybody around me is talking about planning a funeral.

My head just couldn't connect the two at all.

What was going on in that moment?

Did you ever, and I hope this isn't insensitive for me to ask, but knowing that you were going to have to go through labor and birthing McKinseley, like, was there any point in your mind where you're like, okay, maybe they're wrong, like, she'll come out and her, she'll be fine?

My husband was like that.

So Ben was like that.

He honestly thought she might be okay when I delivered her, but I personally knew because the kicks were gone, I couldn't feel her anymore.

And it is the craziest thing to feel life die inside of you.

I don't know how to explain that.

I don't know how to explain that.

But I remember the last kick that I felt being very faint.

And so you think, like, was that the moment I had to ask my OBGYN, you know, did she suffer?

Was she okay?

You know, as a mom, you just want to protect her.

And the hardest thing that Ben and I had to do was we had her with us in the hospital room that night.

They graciously moved us to a a different floor that didn't have any crying babies on it to protect me.

So the hospital was wonderful with that.

But the hardest moment was Win Ben and I had to send her down to the freezer so they could preserve her for the funeral.

Did they prepare you for like as much as they could?

Obviously, nobody's prepared for infant loss, right?

But like, did they walk you through it?

Did they tell you like this is, you know, the process of like what we're going to do?

You're going to have time with her and then we're going to send her downstairs or like, how does that like?

the nurse we had was very caring she told us to take our time with her but they did talk to us about how it is better to preserve and we did get to spend you know days with her in the mortuary ben and i took our favorite books up there we read to her we sang to her we tried to get as many parent moments as we could in with her and it was hard for me to hold her at first because you never imagine holding your child and they're cold to the touch you know and that was still very hard i wanted to just keep her warm but but she was already just gone

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And I know this is so difficult to talk about, but it happens more often than we realize.

Miscarriages are one in four.

Stillbirths are one in 175.

And so I know that we have heard you talk about miscarriages on your end.

It's nothing that any mother should have to go through.

And so I kind of want to ask you, how was that for you?

I don't even know how many miscarriages you actually had.

It's a different kind of pain because

for me at least, you know, you have a little bit of guilt, right?

Where it's like, could I have done something different, sort of like how you were describing?

And I'm only speaking for myself.

So anyone listening to this podcast, please don't get mad at me for saying this, but

because I had miscarriages in the first trimester, I didn't have that same question of did they suffer, right?

Like we're talking about a full-term baby that could have survived outside of the womb versus, you know, I was in such the early stages.

So I think it's just a different kind of pain.

I don't think I should have worn makeup for this episode.

I didn't even pick up waterproof mascara.

Heather and I were talking about it.

I too.

I knew you.

I don't know why I didn't just not put makeup on at all.

It was a different kind of pain.

And then I will say that, you know, and maybe you can relate to this part of it.

I then got pregnant with Lux.

I had two back-to-back miscarriages before Lux, and then I got pregnant with Lux, but I bled so often in that pregnancy

that I was just like, is this it?

kind of thing.

And so then there was a new fear where it was like, okay, I'm out of the first trimester, but now we're in the second trimester, which would be considered a stillborn, I believe.

So, I mean, all the way up to almost 20 weeks, I'm constantly checking to see if how much blood is coming out.

But I had a, I think it's called a subchronic hemorrhage.

And so they were able to see that.

through the ultrasound and things like that.

And so I was sort of prepared in that way, but I don't, I just, it's not the same as, and I'm not saying, but I am saying maybe stillborn is probably just on the spectrum of pain, it's just very different, and it's probably a deeper pain because, like I said, I mean, the what if, you know, what if the snow didn't come?

What if I would have got the ultrasound?

Would they?

And so, I think for a miscarriage, it's just not the same.

I think everybody can handle it differently, too.

Um, I will say that going full term, you know, you're at the end, you're at the finish line, but also when you have a miscarriage, too,

that that doesn't make the loss any less than when you have a stillbirth.

A loss is a loss.

It may just be the grieving may be a little bit different in the stages that you go through, but I can't imagine having a miscarriage either.

You know, this is something that I never imagined.

When you think about getting pregnant for the first time, you never imagine this.

And it was very traumatic.

You know, this is such an important message.

And all the resources that you emailed me are so important.

And I do think that, you know, infant loss is not talked about enough.

And when you said it's, you know, one in 175,

I remember a friend from high school,

she had some stuff on her Facebook about her stillborn.

And

she...

talked to me about it, but I never really questioned, like, I didn't ask her a lot of questions because I just wanted to leave it wherever she was comfortable.

You know, she brought it to me and, you know, mentioned some things.

And

I do have questions, but I don't want to ask them if you're not comfortable with me asking them.

I want you to ask them for sure.

You know, and I don't want this message to just be about McKinseley.

I want it to be about stillbirth.

I want it to be about miscarriages because it's so important.

Not everybody is going to have the same story that I have.

And as a whole, and I'm talking about Barely Famous, Karma and Chaos, the Southern Tea, Coffee Convos, all of those fan-based pages, there is conversation about this in all of them.

And so it's very important for us to touch on all of this all the way around, I feel like.

In terms of, you know, McKinseley specifically, you said that you were having to think about funeral arrangements.

How soon after she was born did you have to make those decisions?

And how did you make those decisions?

It was very, very difficult.

It was right away.

I mean, it was, I was in the hospital two days and it was immediately when we got home.

I was getting emails from funeral directors.

We were trying to pick out her headstone, you know, I was trying to email them songs and everything that I wanted.

We do have audio recording of it.

I've never listened to it.

We had her funeral at our church that we go to, that we attend to.

The same pastor that married my husband and I did McKinseley's funeral in the same chapel that we got married in.

So it's very bittersweet when you have the biggest joy of your life getting married to the person you love.

And then you're also in the same chapel,

you know, about to bury your child.

So that was very difficult in itself.

But when we got back home, so the day of the funeral, this is really crazy.

The day of the funeral, we got in a car accident on the the way home from the funeral.

Gosh.

Somebody hit us that had a trailer tractor with several cars on it, and we were coming home from the funeral.

And as we were filling out the paperwork for the car accident, a ladybug flew into Ben's truck.

And we see them everywhere now.

And it was February 28th.

Ladybugs don't happen in the wintertime in Kansas.

And the story we have over them, I mean, I have videos of ladybugs crawling on McKinsley's grave.

The house that we purchased after McKinsley passed away, the one that we live in now, the owners had ladybug pillows on the porch when we viewed the house.

The little girl that lives next door to us, her name is Kinsley, and she flies a ladybug kite outside.

I mean, the stories just go on and on and on.

And, you know, that's just our little sign from her

that she's just up there watching over us.

So, imagine that a car accident happens and a ladybug flies in the truck we were driving.

She just wanted to let you know she was there.

She was watching over you.

She still is.

So, that part of our story is pretty amazing.

I love sharing that part.

So, out at her grave, we have a lot of little ladybugs.

Our front yard, our house has a lot of little ladybug things in it.

So, that part of the story is pretty crazy and pretty cool to share because you do get little signs from heaven, whether they're butterflies, ladybugs, when you find pennies on the sidewalk, you know, people see different things from loved ones that have already passed away.

And do you and Ben ever talk about McKinseley or talk about any of it?

Or how, like, strange enough, I'm reading a book right now and there's infant loss in there.

One of the parents doesn't want to talk about it, keeps herself the mom.

She doesn't want to talk about it.

She wants to stay busy.

And then the dad wants to talk about it, wants to remember, you know, his daughter.

And so he, you know, just basically talks to himself about her in his head because he doesn't,

and then they get divorced.

So, what, what is that dynamic like in your house?

Like, are you and Ben on the same page, or do you have different ways of coping?

And did you guys ever think about like, okay, we, you know, maybe it affected your marriage more than you anticipated, or did you think it brought you guys closer together?

Both.

So people grieve in very different ways.

Absolutely.

I can't expect him to grieve the same way that I'm grieving, and he can't expect the same out of me either.

One conversation we had when she first passed away was very insightful.

He told me how jealous he was because he never got to actually feel her.

He can feel the kicks on the outside, but I could only feel her on the inside.

So he never got to actually feel her alive.

And so that's one thing that you never think about when it comes to the dads in this situation.

You know, the closest he got to her

was, you know, feeling the kicks on the outside, but it's completely different than feeling them on the inside.

And so that's something that I, you know, never took into consideration that I got those nine months with her that he wasn't able to get.

So that conversation with him was really, really important.

But like I said, we all grieve differently.

I had support through, oddly enough, Coffee Convo's podcast.

The kitty gang telegram had just started up.

And so that is where my support system came in.

Because I'll be honest, with dealing with McKinsley's death, My husband's alcohol level went very high.

He was always a drinker, but it went way more into extremes when we lost McKinseley.

That was his way of coping.

And so I was kind of all alone in my grief because he was, you know, in our basement drinking a lot, unfortunately.

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You know, Kale, and it really made me think of your mom and how, you know, alcohol changes a person.

It really does.

And your mom also had something very tragic that happened when she lost your aunt.

And it made me wonder, you know, is that what caused her to drink more when she lost her sister in a car accident yeah i definitely think that's possible i don't know why like i have these like visceral reactions to other people and like empathize with you and with ben and i don't know if it's because i don't have to live it but i had just feel so much anger more anger towards my mom when i should also have empathy for her because you could be very correct i mean that's that could be so true what do you think the turning point was was for you guys?

Like, is do you think that there was a turning point in the grief?

You know, you were sort of coping by yourself and he was drinking.

And then when do you, when do you see things starting to change for the better?

So he had to hit complete rock bottom.

I mean, he was gonna leave.

He was gonna go, you know, visit his friend in Kentucky, his best friend from the army.

That's where he lived at the time.

And so he just packed up his truck and he was gonna go.

But halfway through, he was just like what am I doing and so

he actually came back home and he told me he was gonna check himself into rehab and he finished his rehab program and I'm very proud to say that in June June 21st Ben will be three years sober from alcohol he is now leading AA meetings once a week

and he is also sponsoring somebody else.

And they have actually asked him back to the facility to talk to all of the people in rehab and so I'm just beyond proud of him.

We all are.

We love Ben.

We do love Ben.

I got to meet Heather and Ben in person back in September.

I think it was at, was it Dallas?

It was Dallas, yes.

It was Dallas.

And, you know, I don't know if he just comes along for the ride to support you or if he's acted, you know,

he likes the kitty gang, but we'll take him either way.

It doesn't matter.

I think think it's it's a little bit of both you know but he

really supports anything that I love so he will put on a pair of kitty ears with me and go along for the ride

the one thing he said to me that night when we left is he said Kayla's so pretty in person he said she's not all done up and anything he said she's just so pretty in person

I don't I cannot even I can't even picture him any other way so I can imagine how, you know, watching the, the changes in him and you guys are going through all of the, you know, the loss and the grief together and then watching him come out on the other side of it.

And now you guys, I would imagine you guys could grieve together rather than apart, if that makes sense.

For sure.

And I had to learn a completely new person.

Since we met, I've never known Ben completely sober.

So that took months of building trust.

I had to learn a whole new person, but the bin that I have now is just phenomenal.

He's so attentive, so amazing.

And it's just crazy how much alcohol can change a person.

It really can get a hold on somebody.

And I can't understand that.

I have never had an addiction problem ever with anything.

I've never tried even smoking cigarettes.

I've never tried drugs in my life.

I only had alcohol on very occasional occasions, you know.

So I can't understand when it has a grasp on somebody like that.

I mean, I agree with you.

I've never really been a drinker.

Obviously, I've tried it here and there, but like, it just isn't for me.

So I do have a really, a harder time.

But in this context, you know, I can't imagine losing an infant, let alone feeling the way that Ben felt, right?

Like.

That is a really, really valid perspective and point that he never got to feel McKinseley.

Like, you know, he never got to feel life with her where you grew her.

So it's, it's different.

And I'm not saying his is less.

And just what I'm saying is like trying to put ourselves in a man's shoes and not really being able to.

And so I would imagine that, you know, he turned to alcohol that he felt like he had no other option.

And

now you guys do have another child.

First of all, we love him.

We love, we love, I call him B, but

B.

Baby, b what was that process like

deciding to try for another baby what was knowing that you were still because i would imagine that the the the loss the feeling of loss the grief that comes with losing an infant that's lifelong i mean even though you didn't get to live you know she didn't get to live earthside with you and build these memories that's still your child right so

When people ask you, I have so many questions.

When people ask you, how many kids do you have?

Do you say one or do you say two?

Or do you go into it where you say, I have a son, but I did have a daughter?

Like, how what does that look like?

So I always say two.

McKinsley will always be my daughter.

But how I say it to people is I say, I have one angel baby and one earthly baby.

Do people think that you're talking about a miscarriage?

No, what they think.

You know, in the very beginning, it was really, really hard.

I went through a lot of traumatic things when we first lost McKinseley.

But when people ask, it can be triggering because you almost don't know what to say to them.

But I will never say that Brody is an only child.

I will never say that I only have one child.

One thing too is

I went through two pregnancies, two full-term pregnancies that destroyed my body.

You know, when I lost McKinseley, that was something else that it's like, here I am.

I don't even have my baby, but I have all these stretch marks.

Going through things like your milk supply coming in when you've lost your baby is so traumatic.

I can't even explain that to you.

Like having milk dripping out of you and you don't even have a child to feed it to.

The doctors had to help me with ways to try to dry it up because it was so traumatic.

You know, having the stretch marks, having your body just being so

just not the same anymore, and you don't even have the baby there, you know.

And a lot of people say, Oh, get through the pregnancy.

It's so worth it once you have your baby in your arms.

But I didn't have that.

So that is very difficult as well.

Did you ever, and I'm asking this, I don't know.

I didn't, this is a thriller book that I'm talking about with the infant loss.

And I never thought I would relate more because there's also alcohol involved as well.

In the book, the mom runs into someone who doesn't know she lost her infant.

Did you ever see someone after you lost McKinseley that maybe didn't know that you lost her and asked, like, oh, how's your daughter?

Or like, oh, did you have the baby?

And then you're triggered all over again and you have to relive all of the grief again.

So, this story, this, you're going to just be like, oh my gosh.

Oh, my gosh.

I went to my doctor's office for a checkup after I had the stillbirth, just to make sure that everything healed the way it was supposed to heal.

So I'm waiting in the waiting room, and they call my name to come back.

And I go back there, and the nurse sits me down and she starts giving me all these gifts for having your first child.

She gives me a diaper bag, she gives me formula, she tells me congratulations, she says we're going to check the baby's heartbeat.

And I just looked at her and I lost it.

I completely lost it.

And I said, I am not pregnant.

And she just looked at me and she just left me in the room to try to figure out what happened.

There were two Heathers in the waiting room.

Oh, no.

And I got up first.

And so the other Heather that was in the waiting room.

So they got us mixed up.

And so my OBGYN had to come in the room.

And I was left in that room by myself for a good 20 minutes while they were trying to figure out what the heck happened.

So my OBGYN had to come in the room and try to calm me down.

So I don't even know what to say.

Things like that will happen.

I had a dentist appointment where they were cleaning my teeth and I couldn't talk and they kept going on and on and asking me, you know, how many kids do you have?

This and that.

And tears just welled up in my eyes.

There are things like that that happen, unfortunately.

When I first lost McKinsley, I went through something that I've never gone through before.

And I started having traumatic hallucinations and visions of different ways that she died.

Did a doctor or anything warn you that that could happen, or is that a pretty unique experience to your knowledge?

I think it's a pretty unique experience.

In all of the support groups that I've been in, if I've brought it up, no one that I know has experienced that.

So that is hard.

You know, you feel like you're a little crazy, but I think my brain was trying to make sense of what happened.

I think a kink in the umbilical cord was not good enough for me.

I was trying to make sense out of it.

And I mean, these were very traumatic things that I saw.

I was looking out of our kitchen window and I saw her hanging from a tree.

The first one that happened, I was in our shower and we had a glass shower, and I could just like hear her banging on the shower saying, Mama, help me.

Like very traumatic things happen.

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Did you ever talk to a doctor about it?

I did, you know, and I really don't know what to say about it.

I know a couple people that they say it did happen to them as well, but I think it's a very unique circumstance.

And so when Ben got home from rehab, we actually sent me somewhere.

We sent me to Florida to get some help

because I just needed needed some sort of support.

And so I was gone for almost a month in a treatment facility.

And I learned a lot of amazing things there.

Talking in class, the biggest thing I learned was that my control had a control on me.

And so my need to control situations has a grasp and control on me.

And it still happens to this day.

I try to prevent bad things from happening.

So I try to control everything around me.

And this is because of infant loss and losing McKinseley.

That was sort of what happened, the toll that it took on you was that it manifested in the way of wanting to control things, you think?

Yes.

I think it was there a little bit before.

I think we all have a little control freak in us when we want things to go a certain way.

Of course.

But it got much worse after I lost McKinseley.

You know, anytime Ben wants to take Brody out somewhere, I think they're going to get in a car accident like i convince myself they're going to get in a car accident so i don't want them to go because i try to control the situation but in my therapy i learned that the control actually had the control on me it's it's very crazy and then one of the therapists there i told them when mckinsley died inside of me i felt like i died myself And he looked at me and he said, don't die twice.

He said, Heather

don't die twice.

One of my therapists when I went to Florida.

Wow.

I know.

Did that change or shift your perspective in any way?

It did, especially now that, you know, I have been in Brody to live for and myself, you know, not just them, but McKinsey's story can have such an impact too on others.

Like, that's my goal in this.

It's, it's not to become famous from barely famous.

It's not to get followers.

It's none of that.

It's to help other parents out there that are going through the same thing.

I honestly thought you just got through the 12 weeks and you were good to go.

Nobody educated me on this, that this could happen.

In all, you know, in all the teen moms that I've seen, there's been talk about miscarriages, you know, terminations, but there's never been a stillbirth.

One of the girls from the kitty gang actually made me aware that I believe it's Madison from Siesta Keys.

She had a stillbirth

and her story is very similar to mine.

She lost her son, Elliot, the December before I lost McKinseley, and it was a court accident, and she was 37 weeks.

I mean, one in 175 feels very, very...

a lot more common, like you were saying in the beginning, than any of us expect.

Like around here, they push for induction induction at 39 weeks.

And I thought maybe it was just to guarantee that they're delivering their patient's baby while they're on call and they can schedule that baby to be delivered while they're there or whatever the case may be.

And I don't, I don't know.

It just, it, I never really understood it, but I guess there can be complications towards the end, especially if they run out of room or they lay on the court a certain way.

I'm just wondering

in what ways can we reduce those numbers?

I just don't, but I'm not a doctor and I have, you know, I don't know what it is.

Is it, is it more, more checkups?

Is it, I don't know.

And so when you were

going through this and

you and Ben both go get treatment, which, I mean, kudos to you both for getting treatment because that couldn't have been easy.

And you being there for him, him coming home being there for you, like that's unheard of, I feel.

One, did you have the support when you, when you decided to, to go into treatment besides from Ben?

Like, did you have, did you have support from everybody else?

And then when you came home from that, did you ever think, you know, we don't, we're not going to do this again.

We don't want to have another baby because we're still going through the grieving process?

Yes.

So to answer the first question, I did have support.

No, it's crazy.

The kitty gang was my support.

When I was in that treatment facility, Kale, I received cards from members of the kitty gang that sent cards to my treatment facility.

I had so much support from the group that you and Lindsay created together.

I mean, that was my support.

I mean, I had Ben and my immediate family, obviously, too.

But when I needed an outlet, when I was on the couch alone by myself, because my mom went back to work and Ben went back to work, and it was just me at home.

I quit my job to be a stay-at-home mom with McKinseley.

So I was literally at home by myself.

So I lost McKinsley in February, and the kitty gang telegram started in May or August.

And then we talked about it in May, and then it started in August.

And then I went to the treatment facility in October.

And so, when I got back, the group was just so supportive to me.

We had some issues paying for McKinsley's headstone.

There were a couple things that happened with that.

And I shared my story on the gang page and i had members of the kitty gang that sent ben and i money for the headstone things that i'll never be able to repay back and so when people are like you know heather's really rah rah yeah kitty gang oh my gosh she's very over the top sometimes which i am we can all admit that and laugh at that you know number one fangirl over here i think that people don't realize what the kitty gang actually did for me in my life

that that was my support system.

The OG girls in there, when that first started, we created a bond that, you know, and it's still going.

You can't match what happened in that group when it first started.

I just want to say I'm sorry if I missed any of that because I don't think I knew any of that or I only knew bits and pieces of it.

And so I just want to apologize for not being there for you.

during that time.

Stop it.

Stop it.

You didn't even know me then.

But even if I didn't know you, like if I would have known

and maybe I knew parts of it, but I didn't know the full story, like I would have paid for, I would have paid for her tombstone.

Like that's something that I just would never ask you to do that.

You don't have to ask.

And I think that's the other part of it is that you're saying like people might not understand and I don't think they do.

I don't, and for you to say that you can't ever repay it, I think people that were

I don't want to speak for everybody, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think that they they don't need to be repaid.

Like they,

they can, I don't know if it's sympathize or empathize, but they wanted to be there for you and contribute.

You don't have to repay them.

And so I think that you being there,

being here now and sharing your message and sharing, you know, McKinseley's story and your story.

you don't know if maybe one of them will ever be in the same situation.

And so just you sharing your story and coming on here and also telling the story in the telegram, I think is so important.

So I don't think that you need to repay them or even worry about that

maybe maybe repay

stop you're beautiful crying we don't call it ugly cry it's beautiful cry beautiful cry

maybe repay is not the the right way to say it i think right

i think i just want to support that group so much because I know what they did for me and my life.

And so I want to pay it forward, I guess.

Yeah, and I think you do that.

I don't even think that it's, I think it just comes second nature.

I mean, coming on here and

sharing your story and spreading awareness, I think is paying it forward.

I just love, love that group so much.

They're just.

Oh, Heather, stop.

I can't.

I want to share this with Lindsay because I think she's on a beach trip right now, but I do want to share this with Lindsay because I think she might not know as well.

I think she doesn't know the extent of it or

that everybody came together in that way for you.

And I hope that that is the community community that we built.

I hope that it is still that way.

And I hope that,

you know,

when a fellow kiddie member, a kitty gang member, you know, needs something that we can uplift each other at the very least.

It does, you know, not even monetarily speaking, but just in a way of support, you know.

A lot of people go in there and they share their stories, you know, they're there for each other.

And I want that to continue.

You know, a lot of people feel comfortable sharing things and getting advice in that group.

And I just think what you and Lindsay have built is just so amazing.

It truly is.

And it did change my life.

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It's time to get busy living.

To answer the second part of your question, I know I went a little long on that.

No, me too.

Sorry about that.

No, no, that's what's fun about podcasts.

You don't know where they're going to go.

Yeah, this is true.

This is true.

With getting pregnant for the second time,

have you ever had sex and you just know you made a baby?

Like, you just, you finished and you just know it happened.

You just know it.

Yeah.

You know what?

That happened a lot more often than I'd be willing to admit, truly.

So it was one of those where when we did our business and then, you know, we said, we just totally made a baby you know you just know and 100% that's what happened

so we weren't preventing we weren't necessarily like trying really hard but it was difficult all the what-ifs came in I'm very fortunate that we have our rainbow baby, but going those nine months was very difficult.

But I had extensive checkups because of my history.

They did checkups every week with me.

I was going to ask you about that.

So knowing, well, because them not really having answers for McKinseley and the kink in the cord,

I don't want to be insensitive.

So, I hope that you understand that I'm not trying to be offensive when I say this, like

an act, like a freak accident, like

couldn't have been prevented.

There wasn't an illness, there wasn't a genetic disorder, there wasn't anything like truly.

I hope that's not offensive when I say this.

No, not at all, not at all.

You know,

I guess, regardless of being that way, they still do the extra testing, the extra everything.

Did they have plans to induce you early?

Like, how was the pregnancy different this time around with Brody compared with Mackensley?

Um, excessive checkups.

Anytime we felt uncomfortable, we went to the hospital immediately.

I was there all the time.

If I didn't feel him kicking for some reason, and Brody liked to sleep a lot in the womb, so he had me, he had me going for a while.

But anytime I felt uncomfortable, they said, come in immediately.

And we would check the heartbeat,

you know, heartbeat monitors at home.

I have mixed feelings on them because sometimes they don't work correctly and that can give you a scare.

So I think going to the hospital.

Just speaking on the heart, the heart monitors at home or like the little Dopplers, I also had one for Lux specifically after the double, after back-to-back miscarriages.

If you're a new mom and you don't necessarily know what you're trying to hear, like what to listen for, sometimes you get the whooshing of the blood versus an actual heartbeat, I think can be difficult and concerned, like you get anxious about it or you can't necessarily find it.

That's something I have mixed, I have really, really conflicting

feelings on them too.

I have a girlfriend who asked me and I said,

if you're an anxious person, maybe it would not be in your best interest to get one, but also everyone's different.

So when you were going to those appointments and going to the hospital all the time, were they already familiar with

your loss prior to?

Yes.

So we made sure that every nurse knew, I mean, it was in my charts.

I had the same OBGYN that I had with McKinsley,

same hospital, same everything.

So they did have our history, which I think is a positive thing.

So that part was really, really good.

But you just can't,

the 12 weeks to me doesn't exist.

The safety net in the 12 weeks, to me, that's non-existent.

Right.

And I know that's kind of harsh to say,

but you can lose a child at any time in the pregnancy.

Obviously, I was at the finish line.

And so

I don't say that to scare any mamas out there, but I want it to be known because I was not prepared at all.

I had no clue this could even happen.

I feel so uneducated about that and a little naive

because I think it made the grieving portion worse that I didn't know that this could even happen.

But even if you had known, I don't know that it would make it easier.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, it may not.

It may have even taken away some of the joy of the pregnancy, knowing and worrying that it could be, you know what I mean?

So almost that naive.

protected you a little bit all the way up to the 38 weeks.

So when you were, when you got pregnant with Brody and you found out, and then you guys were sort of planning the birth, did they, did they want to induce you early?

Um, they did at 38 weeks, it was 38 or 39, I think it's 38.

Um, and they did a C-section with Brody, so it was all scheduled.

I mean, we had him.

This C-sections are crazy.

They willed me back there.

I had Brody in my arms in half an hour.

Like, it was bizarre.

So,

they're so quick.

They're quick oh my god i um when you said brody slept a lot in the womb valley was on top um

and her positioning i always could tell the difference between who was moving

and she didn't move a whole lot where verse was just running and ex doing gymnastics in there and and so i freaked me out a lot that he

she was sleeping and so i would imagine every time brody was like not active for some time you were concerned and rightfully so Yeah, yeah.

So, there were a lot of trips to the hospital with him.

And I know you had some scares with First and Valley and Rio, all three were in the NICU.

So I'm sure that that was very hard.

And they were all three early as well.

Rio was technically full-term, but he was a nine-pound baby in the NICU, which was, that was the running joke at the time.

Like, they do get, they actually do get like, like, bigger babies in the NICU more often than people know because you think of like a NICU baby as you know, it may be like a premature baby or you know a little baby, but that's not always the case.

And so he was before his due date, though, right?

He came early, he was, yeah,

I mean, but I always say give or take two weeks because you know

technically you could go up, you could go up to 42.

They don't love that, which you know, for functions of a placenta, but um, I couldn't imagine being pregnant for 42 weeks.

Um, no, never.

One thing that is really hard, and I feel like I have to say this, that

infuriates me

is when the paparazzi is following you around when you're pregnant.

Heather, I thought you were going to say something about you and your mom.

No, Kale, I have to say this, and you can take it out of the podcast if you want it.

But no, this is serious.

The fact that they were following you around and taking pictures and not giving you your privacy, they don't know if you're having complications.

They don't know anything.

So, to follow you around with a camera because people know who you are is absolutely ridiculous.

And I just, I have to say that because

a woman, when she is pregnant, that is her right to know what is going on with her body and what she wants to tell publicly or not.

They had no idea if you had complications or not.

You could have known something about that pregnancy that nobody else out there knew.

That is a really good point.

I mean, to your point and to, you know, what you went through and in McKinseley's story is that

I could have been 38 weeks also.

I mean, it could happen to anyone.

And so, you know, they're trying to sell pictures of someone pregnant, not just me, but anybody that's pregnant.

You don't know if that baby will make it.

And then you just exploited her, you know, the most vulnerable time of a mother's life.

And I'm not just speaking for myself, I'm speaking for you know, any

mom to be anybody that's pregnant, and so that's really upsetting.

Yeah, um,

when all of that was in the media, um, I was very upset by that.

Well, I appreciate that, and um,

you have such a big heart, Heather.

I love that you were trying to tell your story, and you're talking about us.

It's all full circle, girls.

We're gonna link all of these resources that Heather has shared with us in the description of this episode.

So when you guys do get a chance to look, if you wanted to share them with someone or just save them on your own, we're going to put them in the description of the episode.

We're also,

we'll make sure they get out on socials.

So if you guys need, you know, maybe you know someone or maybe you've gone through it yourself or you just sort of, you know, want to read up on

these resources and that kind of thing, we'll make sure that you guys have them.

And then,

are you comfortable sharing the Wave of Light infant loss video?

Or can we?

Because you went to, it's like a vigil, right?

Yes, yes.

So, is that the right word?

Am I saying that correctly?

Vigil?

Yeah, so Wave of Light is something that Bridget's Cradles puts on every year.

If we have enough time, I just want to touch on them just a little bit.

So, Bridget's Cradles, they get a 501c3 non-profit organization incorporated in the state of Kansas.

It's founded after the birth of Matt and Ashley Aubeker's daughter, Bridget Faith.

She was stillborn at 24 weeks and five days.

In 2014, she measured at 10.5 inches long and weighed 13 ounces.

After Ashley had some complications, Ashley's mom wanted to knit Bridget a special small

blanket in the likely case that Bridget was born too early.

After making a small mint green blanket, she began to think that it would be difficult to wrap such a small blanket around a tiny baby, and so she knit the sides together to create a cradle.

Bridget's Cradles provides handmade knit and crocheted cradles to 1,050 plus hospitals in all 50 states to offer to families whose babies were born into heaven in the second trimester of pregnancy.

So they are designed to hold tiny babies who are born into heaven during the second trimester because babies are so small and fragile.

In the weeks 14 to 26 of pregnancy, traditional blankets do not meet the needs.

They also offer memory keepsakes, memory keepsakes, and they're provided to families who have lost babies in the first and third trimesters.

Ashley Obigler also has a podcast called Cradled in Hope and her book comes out in July of this year called Cradled in Hope.

It is a faith-based podcast and book.

So I wanted to put that out there.

She is very faith-based about babies being in heaven.

The organization,

I had no idea, but I received a cradle and a keepsake at the hospital when I lost McKinseley.

This organization is five miles from my house in Kansas.

Oh, wow.

And I had no idea.

So Ashley has has been a huge light in my life.

She helps so many others.

And so, I wanted to take that time just to share with everybody.

She has a podcast.

Her book is coming out.

She does online sessions for mamas who have lost babies.

And what they do there is just completely incredible.

I wrote that down.

I'll also link that stuff.

I'll link her links in the description as well, just for people to go back to.

I know some a lot of times people drive and they're driving while they're listening and so they can't they can't do both.

So just so you guys don't have to remember all of it, these links will be in the description.

And I just want to say also, if

anyone is interested, I donated my wedding gown.

Javi and I got married, I think.

20 we got married in 2012, had a wedding in 2013.

I donated that wedding gown to Washington.

There was a hospital in Washington that creates outfits out of the wedding gown for funeral outfits for infants.

That's also an option.

If anyone is interested, I can go look at exactly what organization I donated mine to, but there are other ones, so I can try to include some of those.

But oh my God, I literally, like, what the heck was I thinking putting makeup on?

I love you.

I just want to give you a hug.

I knew it was going to be emotional, but I just didn't know that it was going to be like.

I thought I could hold it together a little bit more.

Then clearly I just, you know, I could never be Diane Sawyer because she just keeps it straight.

Like, I don't think she's ever shed a tear in an interview.

And so I'll share the links for the wedding gown.

That's amazing that you did that.

I love that you did that.

That is so great.

It almost feels full circle, sort of, because at that time I didn't know anyone that had a stillborn.

I truly didn't know how often it was.

I thought it was like one in a million kind of things.

Like you, I just didn't even know that that was a possibility really, or it could happen or affect anyone near me.

And so it feels full circle, almost like maybe I would come in contact with you, or you know, I don't know.

It sort of feels full circle, but I thank you so much for sharing your story here and continuing to share McKenzie's story.

And I obviously wish the best for you and Ben and Brody.

And I love when you send me pictures of, look at all the snot coming out of my nose.

I'm so sorry.

It's beautiful.

I don't know about that.

And where can people find you if you are comfortable sharing and if you want to share your handles?

You know where people can find me.

They can find me.

I know, but they can find me in any podcast group that has to do with Kale Lowry.

So Coffee Convo's podcast group on Facebook.

They can find me in Karma and Chaos.

There's a barely famous one.

We've got one in Southern T.

And that's where the people can find me.

I know they can find you there.

But for anyone who's not on social media like us, if you want to find Heather, all you have to do is join one of the groups.

That's it.

That's all.

That's all you have to do.

Come talk to me over there.

Don't make me peace.

Thank you so much, Heather.

Yeah, love you, girl.

Take care.

Love you.

So sing on.

I'm Caitlin Bristow, host of Off the Vine Podcast, where I get real.

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