The Night Watcher with Daphne Woolsoncroft

Welcome to the shit show.

Things are going to get weird.

It's your favede villain, Kale Lower.

And you're listening to Barely Famous.

Today on Barely Famous, I'm sitting down with Daphne Wollsencroft and she's the host of Going West, one of the top true crime podcasts.

We're talking about what it's like to dive into some of the darkest cases week after week and how she separates real life from work and the wildest stories she comes across.

She's also the author of a brand new book called The Night Watcher.

All right, Daphne, welcome to Barely Famous Podcast.

Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah, of course.

So before we were just talking about writing books and stuff, congratulations on The Night Watcher.

Thank you.

Yes.

So tell me about the book.

Obviously, you have your own, you have a podcast, you have a true crime podcast, but newer than that, you have your book.

Yes, my book, Nightwatcher, just came out last week.

So it's about a radio show host in Portland, Oregon.

And she's just living her life, doing her show.

And she gets this terrifying on-air call where the woman thinks there's a ghost in her house.

And it makes Nola realize that a serial killer from her childhood is back.

And she...

feels like she's being watched at her house.

So she thinks that the killer is back and coming for her because when she was a kid, he killed her babysitter.

And this is like a very prominent serial killer in the area.

So, yeah, it's very scary.

So, what inspired the book, though?

Well, because I have my podcast going west, I knew that I wanted-I mean, I've always loved thriller novels and mysteries.

Like, I was such a Nancy Drew kid and have just always been into that genre, and I love horror movies.

So, I knew I wanted to write a thriller novel always.

Yeah, but specifically, this story.

So, I met my husband in Oregon, but I'm from LA.

So, we were living in this amazing house in Portland.

It's very similar to the one that I describe in the book that Nola lives in.

And it like looked over the city and it was like.

located on a hillside and like my thriller brain was always like i feel like there's somebody on the street watching me so i i felt like it was a good setting for a book and i knew i wanted to write about a serial killer because of going west and just all my knowledge of serial killers and true crime investigations in general so and i knew i also wanted to have a perspective of a detective like at least just this once, to kind of like launch me into a book career, you know, coming from the podcast.

So we have his perspective as well as NOLA's.

And yeah, and I wrote the outline in like four days and it all just kind of tumbled out.

But I had a totally different idea I was going to go with that was a little, it's a little more thrillery that I ended up doing for my second book instead.

So okay, I was going to say, would you ever use it for another book?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

It was like, but that's why I felt like, you know, there's so much pressure going into your first book.

What is this book going going to be about?

What do I make this about?

Because it's like the first.

Yeah.

So I felt like doing it about a serial killer made the most sense for me.

What has the reaction been from your podcast audience?

It's been really good.

It was really exciting to see everybody pre-order it and just be excited about it.

Because I feel like there's also this weird connection of, oh, I have a platform, so I'm just putting my hands in all the pies, you know?

But I've always really wanted to be an author and I've always been a writer.

So it's been really nice to like so many people who have loved it are like, okay, so you you can write and it's not just you're just doing it to do it you know so i've gotten a lot of really good feedback but it's also in the same niche as your podcast so it also makes sense yeah so there's been a lot of transfer which is nice as well it's not like i'm writing a romance novel wait so tell me about the podcast you have going west and you're are you with unwell network yes yes okay so there that's That show is their first true crime show.

Is that right?

Yeah.

How exciting was that for you?

It was amazing.

So we, I didn't know Alex.

I knew of the Unwell Network.

When they approached us, they'd only been around for like maybe eight months or so because they're still really new.

But obviously I knew who Alex Cooper was and she's just such a powerhouse.

And we have the same agent.

Okay.

So our agent was trying to find us a new ad company.

Yeah, like a new home, but mostly just for ads because going west was under Dark West Productions, which is just our.

you know, we don't have any other shows on it.

It was just, just our like house network.

Right.

And our agent was like, so we pitched it to Unwell and Alex loves the show.

And we're like, oh, okay, that would be such a different experience, you know?

Yeah.

And we were kind of worried that maybe too much was going to change, but they have been so supportive.

Like it couldn't have been a better decision because everybody that works at Unwell is so nice and fun and excited for you.

And they're just like.

the best cheerleaders.

So and you need that, especially in the podcasting space.

I feel like you need people that are going to root for you.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so it's, it's been fun being there first because all their other shows are so different from ours, but it's nice to kind of like mix it up a little bit you know agreed and then you probably have access to potentially like podcast swaps and stuff like that yeah totally yeah it's been fun we've been just slowly meeting a bunch of the other podcasters over the last few months because a lot of them are in la but a lot of them are outside of la so it's been really fun to be a part of like a team yeah for so long it was just heath and i what inspired you to get into a career of true like in true crime i you know it's funny because i didn't grow up listening to anything true crime like i didn't watch dateline growing up or any of that.

Heath did.

And so he always loved it.

Like his mom is such a true crime buff, always watching Dateline and forensic files and stuff like that.

But I got into it because my mom's sister disappeared in 1984 when my mom was in her early 20s and when Carol, her sister, was 20.

And we know that she was murdered because,

like, I could talk about this case for so long, but essentially she had told our grandparents, our, I'm like saying our, my grandparents, that

she was afraid of her boyfriend, who she'd only been dating for like two months at that time, but they were living together because they worked at the same restaurant.

So a bunch of people from the restaurant lived in this house in Florida.

And

she

like learned that he was a drug dealer and that he was super violent.

And so she was trying to get away from him, but was scared how she would leave him.

Like it was that kind of abusive situation.

Right.

And then she went missing.

And he did so many suspicious things after she went missing.

Like he went to his dad's house, borrowed a shovel, borrowed his dad's car, and then drove 14 miles, came back, burned the shovel and said, if you tell anybody I was here, I'll kill you.

So it's like, you don't do that.

You know, he didn't report her missing.

My grandparents did, or yeah, my grandparents did, her parents did.

And then he fled to New York.

And years later, he killed.

two other women at least and their children.

And then he died in prison.

So that story just always haunted me, like being a part of a family that dealt with all that mystery and not knowing exactly what happened.

Her body has never been found, but we know she was murdered.

And like, I was always interested in that side of true crime, you know.

With that being said, and I hope this isn't too insensitive, do you think that it's easier to get away with murder than people think?

Because how did he not get caught for your aunt's disappearance?

No, I think I, my theory is that, because the area where his dad lived was very much swampland.

And so my theory is that he

drove out, like he killed her in some way and then dumped her in a swamp somewhere.

And the problem is, it's like so many cases, if there's no actual evidence and you don't have a body, they really have nothing.

So if he put her in a swamp in an alligator ate her, you know, then they're never going to find her and then they're never going to know what happened to her.

So if they don't know what happened, then they can't arrest him.

You know, literally, if there's no body, there's no

evidence.

Unless he killed her in their house and there was blood evidence, like enough blood evidence to prove that she died there.

But there wasn't, like, they didn't know where the crime scene was.

So, and he was not investigating with police either.

He wouldn't answer any of their questions.

And very early on in the investigation, he left the state for New York and then he never came back.

And there was nothing they could do about that.

Yeah.

And they're like still haunted to this day by it.

They've told me because they had nothing.

Are you haunted to this day?

Like, how did you grow up in a family where someone literally was disappeared?

It's really sad for my sister and I.

I think it was really tough for us growing up and knowing that our mom lost her sister and her only sibling.

Like that always just made us really sad when we thought about our relationship because we're twins and, you know, you have twins, twins do everything together.

And that's such a special connection.

So knowing that my mom lost that connection, even though she wasn't a twin.

was always really sad for us.

But my mom also didn't make herself a victim because of it.

Like she didn't walk through life with her head down and neither did my grandparents.

And so I think my mom always had a really positive outlook on it and didn't make us feel bad for her, you know, which I almost makes me feel more sad because I'm like, you're silently hurting.

So it was really, it was really hard also just thinking about the fact that, you know, where would she be today?

What would she look like?

What would she be like?

What would our relationship be like and her relationship with my mom?

And would she have kids that we would be friends with?

So yeah, it's, it's hard to think about in that way.

Does it change the way that you put out true crime content being that your family went through something like this?

100%.

I feel like Heath and I have always been very victim-based.

And I feel like there are a lot of true crime podcasts or true crime shows that sensationalize true crime.

And I understand why, because if you're not connected to it, like, oh my God, that's a crazy story.

We all think that when we hear about shit, you know?

So I understand that perspective.

But seeing it from the other side, I definitely always want to be as sensitive as I can while still trying trying to make light because it's so hard to think about because our show is still entertainment.

So it's like trying to find the line between being entertaining and not hurting people's feelings or being crass or rude or, you know, especially because a lot of time the family listens.

So I never want to hurt somebody's feelings.

And I think being on the inside of that in some way has helped me.

change the way that I approach it for sure.

Right.

Because you never want to disrespect like the victim's family or anything like that.

And it's really hard.

One of my other podcasts, we used to do true crime bonus episodes every month.

And I just,

I personally couldn't figure out a way to

put out the true crime in a way that was not offensive to the,

it's really hard.

It's hard to walk that line.

So I just never really know, but I'm a big fan of true crime, you know.

Dateline, 2020, ID channel, all the podcasts.

It's fascinating.

It's insane.

That's why it's, it's, I understand why it's sensationalized because it's crazy that people can do this.

And then we're obsessed with it.

Yeah.

it's so fascinating to me.

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When you do your podcast, do you think that any of the cases or your experience with your aunt disappearing has impacted your own relationship at all or the dynamic of the show?

With like Heath and I?

Yeah.

Um, yeah, i mean you know heath heath has always approached it as sensitively as i have and even though he kind of came from a different kind of background and i mean he like his uncle disappeared and that was kind of an ambiguous thing as well um but yeah i i think it's been really nice to kind of build it with him especially because we know each other so well and figure out like how we want to present the show we always wanted to do it in the same way heath's uncle disappeared yeah i don't really know the details of it it was like like his uncle, it was like hit one of his aunts, his aunt's husband, like way long ago.

And we don't know about it.

I've always wanted to know more and there's literally no information because it's a side of his family that he's not close with.

So yeah.

But did that bring you guys closer?

Because how do you like what?

I know.

I don't know.

I've always tried to find out more.

And he's like, yeah, we literally don't know.

But I don't, I think because he wasn't affected by it, because it was an uncle that he didn't really know.

He just has an interesting kind of connection to that side of things as well.

But, you know, he's, he is such a compassionate and amazing guy.

So he's always had that lens anyway.

You've also focused a lot of the stories on the BIPOC community.

What inspires you to do that?

I mean, I think naturally there's not enough attention on the BIPOC community.

I think we all know that.

And there's a lot of people that say that and then they still don't share those stories.

And I think that's part of it for us is just sharing everybody's story and not caring who it is, but also caring who it is in the sense that we're shedding light on the stories that need it the most.

I think, like, I would never cover the Zodiac color.

You know, we've done

more well-known stories, but it's always been an interest of ours to cover the lesser-known stories because the reason I wanted to start the podcast in the first place, I actually originally wanted to do a podcast about my aunt and I was going to call it the Doe Diaries.

And then I thought, well, I think the best way to get her story out there is to have a general true crime podcast.

and then eventually highlight her case if I can create a platform for myself.

And that's exactly what I've been able to do, luckily.

But because her case is so lesser-known, nobody knows about it.

You've never heard it on another true crime podcast until I brought it up and somebody has approached me to cover it, which has been really nice.

So I think just covering lesser-known stories is really important to us.

And unfortunately, a lot of people who go missing in the BIPOC communities are lesser known because a lot of people don't talk about them.

So that's kind of just come naturally as well with the type of stories that we want to tell to get attention to the stories that nobody's talking about.

Have other true crime podcasts not reached out?

I feel like because we're in the podcast space and podcast swaps are like the best way to grow.

I know.

Why are we not helping each other out?

I know.

The trail went cold.

His name is Robin.

He's such a sweet guy.

After I came out with the episode and people learned that I had a missing aunt, he reached out and he wanted to cover her case.

Crawlspace podcast did the same thing and they interviewed me and let me tell Carol's story on their podcast years ago.

So a couple have, but like nobody else has, which is fine.

But no, it's not fine.

It's not fine.

How do you go about choosing what cases you're going to cover?

Obviously, you want to pick the lesser known ones, but how do you then narrow it down even further?

Oh my God, we have literally thousands of cases.

We have like a Google Doc of all these cases because we get so many emails.

So the email recommendations help a lot because Heath and I on our own time

just

like sift through as many cases as we can, but it's so hard to find them randomly online, especially for the lesser known ones.

Cause like, what am I supposed to look up?

You know, so I'll do like Colorado 2004 missing woman.

Like I'll just randomly look shit up.

And sometimes that helps and we'll be able to find stuff that way.

Or, you know, I'll look up craziest lesser known cases and I'll dive through like hundreds of Reddit comments on random posts.

But usually we get recommendations, which is so helpful.

And then we just have to do the preliminary research of like, is there, okay, yes, it's lesser known, but is is there, is it so lesser known that there's not enough to talk about and the family isn't alive or willing to talk to us?

So it can be like weirdly hard to find something that has the perfect amount of information to cover it.

Right.

But we do two a week.

So we're like constantly looking.

People have reached out to me and been like, hey, can you talk about this case on your podcast just for awareness?

And I always feel so bad because I'm not a true crime podcaster.

Oh, I'm sorry.

So I don't even know how to truly.

put out that type of information.

Yeah.

When you're talking to, you know, victims, families, and stuff like that, do you ever feel like, I don't know if I would know the right things to say?

Oh, 100%.

I always feel so guilty.

And I always feel like a lot of the time I would rather just not even reach out.

But then that also makes me feel bad because if I come out with an episode, it has happened before where someone's like, hey, you didn't even try to contact me.

And I'm like, I just, honestly, I just didn't want to hurt your feelings.

I didn't want to dredge up old stuff.

Cause I think about my mom.

And I'm like, if somebody emailed my mom, she would be like, I don't want to talk about that.

But I think if somebody covered the case, she would be like, oh, cool.

So I think I just have that perspective of my particular mother.

Right.

And whereas some people think that's rude not to.

So it's, it's really hard, though, because it also, I feel like true crime podcasts have in a lot of ways, a bad rap as well.

Like, oh, you're just a true crime podcast.

You don't really care, which I fully understand.

So it's really sensitive.

And we always just try to come at it.

I always try to use the my aunt went missing card, which I hate to do as well, but just so they know that I'm not some vulture.

Right.

Like, you actually care.

Yeah, like I actually do care.

I wonder why people think that people that host true crime podcasts don't actually care.

I don't know.

I think, I feel like it's just a thing whereas, oh, you're just a true crime podcast.

Somebody asked me like a few months ago, like, oh, don't you feel so guilty that you have a career off of missing people?

And I can see it that way, but no, I'm trying to spread awareness.

That's the whole point for no other reason.

That's literally the reason I got into this.

And honestly, most true crime podcasters are that exact same way.

And I think a lot of people just don't see that.

So what do you think sets your podcast apart from other true crime podcasts?

I think

it's hard.

When we started the show, like I was obsessed with True Crime Garage.

They're one of my all-time favorites.

I don't listen to True Crime Podcasts anymore because I get enough of that.

But it wasn't necessarily that I felt like there was a gap and we needed to fill that gap.

I just feel like, I don't know, because I don't really think we're anything quote unquote special.

I love that Heath and I have the relationship that we do because I think it creates natural good conversation.

I think we both just have similar viewpoints as well, just on the cases and the cases that we cover.

Like I said, so yeah, I mean, I don't know.

I think, I think it's nice that we can come at it with a respectful angle and telling lesser known stories and not as much the John Bonets of it all, which I feel a lot of people actually don't focus on the lesser known stories.

People want to talk about John Bonet.

I do too, totally.

But a lot of people don't know about all these other people because there's so many people out there that are missing and murdered that don't get that attention.

Yeah.

Well, and I think because it was a different time, you're covering cases that couldn't have had the same media attention.

You know what I mean?

So, and

now we have the ability to

get the eyes on those cases.

Yes.

So that's helpful, I would imagine.

Absolutely.

I'm still just fascinated by the John Bonnet Ramsey of it all.

I don't think I'll ever get over that case.

Oh, I mean, same.

And that's why people are so fascinated by it for a reason.

I would listen to a podcast on John Bonet Ramsey today.

Like, that's why people talk about it because everybody always wants to talk about it because we can't understand it.

So, did any of the cases that you've covered on your podcast seep into when you were writing The Night Watcher?

Like, I think it's more so just the general knowledge of cases, but there was, there was like a few instances where I kind of did tap in.

It wasn't like, oh, we covered this case and I want to utilize that story for a book.

It was more so, like, I knew that I wanted the killer in my book to either like, I wanted there to be a break.

So I won't spoil if it's a hiatus or there's a copycat, but I wanted there to be an ambiguous break in when he's killing and he's killing again.

And because throughout the whole book, you're wondering, is it a copycat or did he take a break?

And if he took a break, why?

Like what happened?

So I was trying to figure out first and foremost, do people do that?

Because if you're a serial killer, you're killing multiple people.

So I was trying to figure out, do they ever take a break?

Or is there just a period where they're still killing and they're not being caught?

And then I learned about BTK because I never look into the big story.

So I didn't even know, I knew who BTK was find torture kill, but I didn't know all about him.

Do you know yeah oh yeah

I got his address

I want to write to him and get him on the podcast so bad you're a line but it's like I'm speaking it into existence but I so my old when I started in the podcast industry I started with a boutique network okay and the producer wrote to him and he wrote back no way yes what did he say um

he that he doesn't know why he killed He doesn't know why he killed people.

And he lived a double life.

He had a whole family.

He was married.

He had kids.

He would go to his son's boy scout camping and get up in the middle of it and go kill somebody and come back insane insane i wonder how many letters he even gets you know he's well does he still surely he still gets them but like which ones are grabbing his attention today yeah i mean it's not like he's constantly in the news but it was just his 20-year anniversary that's what like brought it all up for me because i'm like uh bro let's do it

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But wait, so did he go on a break?

Sorry.

Yeah.

So he went on a break and it was because he was tired.

No, he had a family, like you were saying.

So he had a family and he got married.

And he

started working a job that gave him like that feeling of having power.

Which is a lot of DBT one where he worked for the company.

Yeah, security.

I knew this case.

Yeah.

So he was like,

I think because he got that feeling of power from his job, like, oh, I work in security, he felt like he didn't have to kill during that period of time, which I thought was so interesting.

I thought, okay, so I got it fucked up then.

I thought that he was killing the families that he installed the system in.

Oh.

He was using, he was using that position of power as, I don't even know, I don't know what company he worked for.

I just know that he was ADNS.

Okay.

He worked, but he literally just from having that particular position, it felt like it gave him enough power because a lot of serial killers kill for that feeling of power.

They want, they want to overpower somebody.

So their way of doing that is by killing them, which is crazy, but a lot of serial killers do that.

And he felt like satisfied enough through his job that he didn't have to keep killing.

And then I actually don't remember what happened because this was like three years ago that I looked into.

I think we should do a deep dive.

I'm down.

So he was like a big inspiration because of that.

Because I'm like, oh, that has happened.

So I wanted to be able to know, okay, that happened.

Serial killers can take a break.

Again, if we even go that route, just so that was like something they could speculate on, you know, in my book.

The other case that not inspired it, but all the victims in my book die by having their throat slit, like from the back.

Like, my worst fear.

Your worst fear.

My worst nightmare.

Yeah.

So I wanted to, I was trying to think, oh, have we ever, because that's not very typical.

I feel like most of the cases that we cover, they're stabbed or they're shot, you know, or they're strangled.

Very seldom do we see that somebody's just slicing necks, you know?

But I mean, the Nicole Brown Simpson case, she was stabbed a lot in her head and in her neck, but she also had her throat slit.

And so I looked at her autopsy and I used a lot of her autopsy for my book.

But those are really the only two cases that I kind of like tapped into.

I didn't even know that they, how people get.

autopsy pictures.

I did see.

Oh, no, I didn't look at the pictures.

I looked at the report.

Oh.

Yeah.

No, I certainly didn't look at the pictures.

Oh, God.

But there was like like in my book i describe that she had one of the victims had like a six inch gash across her neck and so did nicole so that's where i got that oh that makes sense yeah because obviously we we're not scientists so we can't like put in the full details but if you take them from another case that makes sense i want it to be forensically correct no that i'm exactly i'm that's not my job so i wanted to look at a case that was kind of similar and say oh okay oh these arteries are severed when that happens i had to do a lot of research into like the body right and also i read like a police handbook.

I did so much research into what it's like to be a detective since that I'm not super familiar with other than knowing how investigations unravel.

So I had to do like a lot of that side of research as well.

What made you want to put a detective aspect in your book?

I think just because I knew that people who listen to Going West would probably want to hear about that.

And because of being a true crime podcaster myself, it felt like a good natural natural move to really focus on an investigation specifically.

Like the idea I was telling you about before that I had that I ended up making my second book.

Yes.

There's not, we don't see it from the investigative side of it.

So I felt like, okay, I feel like the time to do that is with my first book to show what I, because I'm also like, can I write a book?

I've never, I wrote a book when I was 19, but it was a novella and it was like 130 pages.

Did you publish it?

I self-published it.

Yeah.

You should repromote it.

Make some money.

No, I took it out of print because i i rushed it so bad just re-edit so yeah i may i may but that was like um that was like a crime romance situation kind of like a bonnie and clyde vibe but in the 70s in new orleans like it was that'd be like dark romance maybe yeah maybe some dark romance yeah absolutely so your other book that you

your second book my second book yeah is that the maiden hollywood no okay that's the book i'm talking about that's because your goodread says it's unpublished girl that should be off Goodreads.

I tried to get them to remove it and edit it out.

You don't have to edit it out.

No, no, no.

No, you can keep it.

Okay.

It's just fun.

No, Made in Hollywood is my first book, but that was the novella.

Oh, I love it.

My second book is going to be called The Season of Sinking.

Your first book came out last week.

Your second book, do you have a timeline for

the book talkers listening to this?

I think it'll be like a year.

I'm trying to do books every year because I love it so much, but that's why with my first book.

before I really wrote a full book other than my little novella that we don't even count as my book that I wrote because it was so short, which not that novellas aren't books, of course, but for me, it just didn't feel like an accomplishment.

So, so

yeah, with this other book though, I'm really excited about it.

I loved it.

It just didn't feel like the right choice for my first story.

But after I wrote Nightwatcher, I just knew that this was a good path for me.

And I want to keep writing books.

I want to be like an annual author.

So I think the season of singing will be out probably next July.

Do you feel pressure now that you've written one book to write more books or is it something that you genuinely want to do?

No, I like if I'm not working on my book, and I'm, I hate to say this because it's not that I don't like working on going west, but if I'm working, going west is so time consuming, so that's my full-time job, you know.

So I'm working on that all day, and I'm like, oh my God, I didn't get to write today, and I'm so sad about it.

So I do really love writing.

That's what I wanted to do since I was a kid.

It's just that being a true crime podcaster happened first, you know?

And now it's like a change of pace.

Yeah, I know.

No, I get that.

It's a nice little break from the heavy, real true crime side of things what who are your favorite authors

okay right now so i'm like i've read freedom mcfadden i loved verity by colleen hoover you know i read all i read all of it but an author who i think's or who i think needs so much more attention is camilla bruce she's like norwegian and okay you have to read this book it's called you let me in it came out i think in 2020 but i read it only a couple months ago and it's very dark psychological thriller.

It's so good.

It's essentially this woman who experiences childhood, or we start when she's a girl, and she experiences childhood trauma.

And she's kind of covering that childhood trauma with the idea that this like fairy man called the pepperman exists.

And you're trying to figure out if she's crazy or if she just has deep psychological trauma.

And it's so good.

And then she wrote another book called The Witch in the Well that I love.

So, right now, I'm like, I literally need more books from her so bad.

And are those the only two books that she has right now?

She has two other books that I haven't read because they're kind of more like old American true crime vibe.

And I like this more like

estate garden, dark psychological fantasy thing that she's doing with her other two books.

Okay.

So I haven't read the other ones.

But yeah, I think having a favorite author can be hard because people explore different kinds of settings and themes.

I love Robin Harding.

Have you read any of her books?

Girl.

The Drowning Woman is

no, that one is on my TBR.

It's the woman in the water.

She's like walking out.

Okay, or walking.

I guess perception is everything.

Yeah, on the cover.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

So that's on my TBR.

I just haven't gotten to it yet.

She's amazing.

Do you ever get overwhelmed with all the true crime consumption?

Because you're doing the podcast and you're listening to stuff and you're reading and you're writing and you're doing all the things.

Do you ever get overwhelmed?

100%.

I feel like I'm way too sensitive not to be overwhelmed with it.

And especially because we do

two cases a week, it can just feel like a lot.

These are real people's stories that we're talking about.

And even though I'm so fascinated by the subject, it can feel so heavy.

We recently came out with an episode, The Bellevue Killer, and it's this serial killer in 1990 in Bellevue, Washington.

And like, the positions that he left his victims in is just so horrific.

And just some of the things that you have to read and talk about, it's so dark, and just over and over and over again.

It's really hard.

So Heath and I have to decompress a lot afterwards.

Yeah, what do you do to decompress?

We have, like, so it's kind of funny because obviously we work together and we're married.

So I feel like a lot of people will go to work away from their spouse or partner and then they'll come home and that's their time together.

Ours is kind of the opposite.

I understand.

We work together all day.

And so usually when we're done working, he'll go like his way to decompress is like play Apex on his PlayStation or go in the hot tum with hot tub with some beers.

And I just like to read on the couch or watch a movie or something.

But we still hang out a lot.

And we love doing the same things like if we go out to a movie or go bowling or go to a bar, like a chic restaurant with our friends or something.

So we just try to like get away from it.

Or go out with your brother-in-law.

Right.

Or go out with my brother-in-law.

Yeah.

100%.

Me and Gary will go to the movies without Heath.

There was a time where I was only consuming true crime content.

So it was like ID channel all day, listening to true crime podcast all day.

When I listened to what, like morbid, then I could listen to another one and then I would listen to another one to the point that I was like.

jumping when I looked over my shoulder.

So I had to take like a clean break from it because it really does like consume your entire life.

And it makes you so paranoid.

Like I feel like anytime like my name on Uber is Duke, which is my dad's name, because I'm like, I can't, they can't know I'm a woman.

Like I am so paranoid now.

Yeah.

Like my postmate's name is also Duke.

Like I don't want somebody knowing a woman lives in my house.

So you just get really paranoid and it just, it's really heavy.

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Do you ever feel like it shapes the way that you view the world and like what humanity is capable of?

Yes, because there's you learn, wow, there's a lot of fucked up people out there.

And it's always people you never expect.

Like the BTK killer, for example.

That's the thing.

The fact that we have all probably stumbled across some sort of murderer at some point in our lives, because you truly have no no idea.

Yeah, that is really the scariest thing.

Actually, the day my book came out, we, or the day my book came out, we came out with this episode called The Hiding Man.

That's the killer in my book, Anatomy of a Serial Killer.

And we just really dove into the anatomy of a serial killer and talked about so many well-known killers that are just normal ass people.

Has there been a case that you've covered on your podcast specifically, or just that you know of that has sort of lived rent-free in your head?

Okay, my sister and I, so back before I was a true crime podcaster and we would obsessively listen to True Crime Garage, like we would really get addicted to just the really strange disappearances.

Do you know, you know, Brian Schaefer?

Oh my God, girl.

Like, so he in 2006 in Columbus, Ohio, he was like a young man.

He was like a med student to be, he wanted to be a doctor.

And he was out at a bar and there's literally security footage of him going into the bar and there's no footage of him leaving the bar.

So you're like, did you literally fall into a parallel universe like what like something had to have happened to your physical body what happened and so i think cases like that where somebody just goes missing especially in that situation where he was literally at a bar where there was a camera outside right and there's no footage of him leaving so how did he get out what do you mean how is he missing and his body's never been found so The reason we started with our first episode ever was Brandon Swanson.

Do you know that story?

I don't.

That was in 2008 in Minnesota.

And he was was also a young man.

He was at a friend's party, like a small gathering.

And he was taking the back Minnesota roads, like picture farmland.

And he drove his car into a ditch off the side of the road and his car got stuck.

So he called his parents and said, hey, I drove into a ditch.

Can you come pick me up?

And he was telling them exactly where he thought he was.

They go to that location where he's telling them they're honking their horn.

They're flashing their headlights.

And they're like, can you hear us?

Can you see us?

And he's like, no, can you hear me?

He's doing the exact same thing.

And they can't hear each other.

And

he, his phone, eventually, while he's on the phone with his parents, he says, oh, shit.

And the call drops.

And he's never been found.

And he was trying to walk through farmland, they think, to find his parents.

Farmland?

Yeah.

Like, you know, just like.

Right.

But so he wasn't by a car.

So he didn't get hit by a car.

No, there was no cars out.

So he, yeah, that's exactly what people think about.

They're like, did he fall and pass out?

And then a tractor ran over him.

and then they tried to cover it up, you know?

So your mind can go anywhere.

I think just those stories where there's no answers and somebody disappears so mysteriously just really stick with me.

Stay with you.

Yeah.

I feel like I've watched enough disappeared.

Yeah.

It's a great show.

Yeah.

On ID channel.

Yeah.

Is there like a high-profile case that you can think of that has stuck with you?

Like for me,

Lacey Peterson.

Yeah.

Also the Idaho 4, Brian Koberger.

My God.

And never get away.

He's so scary as as well.

Like, Heath and I were talking about this in our Anatomy of a Serial Killer case or episode that, you know, usually serial killers look normal.

They're normal people.

Yeah.

And I feel like Brian Koberger just looks so, like, his eyes are just scary.

Yeah.

So that story is insane.

Do you think we'll ever have answers from him?

I don't know because he's saying that he's admitting guilt, but he's not doing it.

So he's not actually saying, here's what happened.

I'm not super familiar with how it works.

There's so much coming out constantly as well.

I just think it's sad that he is able to say that he did it and not give details because that just feels like such a cop-out.

I want to know details for the victims' families.

Yeah, of course.

Wait, do you think Scott did it?

Scott Peterson?

I do.

I didn't for a little bit.

Like, I was like a flat earther for a second.

And I was like, hold on.

I don't, he might not have done it.

And then I talked to Beth and she was like going over what circumstantial evidence is and when it's no longer circumstantial.

And I was like, okay.

I could see how Scott Peterson could have gotten acquitted because Casey Anthony and O.J.

Simpson, like I get it.

But then when she brought up the perspective of like all the things, I was like, oh.

Girl, my dad thinks he's innocent.

And I do you think he's innocent?

Do you think he's innocent?

We have fought with our dad so much on this because, so like growing up, our dad was like obsessed.

I'm saying our dad because my sister's obsessed with the room.

Yeah, her twin sister is in the room.

My, like our dad was obsessed with true crime, but he didn't, he didn't like do that publicly.

And I think out of respect for my mom.

So I didn't ever see him watching like anything.

And so I got into all these cases really late.

And so probably within the first year of having going west, we covered Lacey Peterson.

And in my head, I was like, what?

This story is crazy.

Dad, have you heard about this?

And he was like, girl, I lived through that shit.

Like, yeah, I know, I know every detail.

And I'm like, he's so innocent or he's so guilty, blah, blah.

And my dad was like.

No, like he didn't do this.

And he just thinks that he's like a piece of shit, but he doesn't think he killed her.

There was a small window of time where I was like, okay, I could get behind this theory.

Like it was all circumstantial.

It was all a coincidence, if you will.

Well, isn't the Innocence Project looking at him now?

Yes.

What the fuck are they thinking?

I mean, I think just because we're like, I think just because the evidence is so weird, like I, I do in part understand why people think he's innocent, but I don't, I don't necessarily think he's innocent.

Like I understand why he's in prison.

It's one of those things that's weird with like, especially with high-profile cases.

I'm sure it happens with cases that we don't really hear about but i understand why people get acquitted yeah but that doesn't mean that they're not guilty and that's the biggest i think discrepancy is like oj simpson was acquitted but that doesn't mean he's innocent and no it doesn't casey anthony was acquitted but it doesn't mean she's innocent it's so weird still seeing like random pictures of her like on a date or something she has a whole boyfriend living her best life and we're just like why do you get to go on it's insane have you ever had victims reach out and say like maybe victims' families and reach out and say, like, thank you for covering the case?

And that, you know, maybe it brought up a new,

I don't know,

it re,

yeah.

There was one.

So we do get a lot of emails and comments like that, which always makes me feel like, oh, thank God.

Because I always get anxious when we release an unsolved case or even a solved case, because even if, let's say, the family has been out there for years trying to get answers and then they get answers and then you're talking about it.

It's like, I'm not trying to poke at a wound that is now healing so it's it's always really hard whether it's solved or unsolved to talk about things when i know that there's family out there and a lot of people who are advocating there is this boy who was

okay so

he died outside of his home like on his playground essentially like

on the swing set.

Like he was like strangled by the swing, essentially.

Or he was like hung by the swing.

He was alone, apparently.

And the police wrote this off as a suicide.

He was like a young teenage boy.

And the details of this case are so creepy in my head.

As soon as I started looking into it, because his mom has this whole Facebook page, she has all these really detailed posts of everything that happened, like in detail.

I've never really seen that, like a parent do that.

And somebody had sent it to us.

And I'm diving through these details.

Like, this boy did not take his own life.

How did the police think he did?

And to this day, they haven't reopened the case.

But she reached out to me or to Heath and I said the mom and said how much it meant to her to have us talk about it because nobody was talking about it.

I don't know if anybody else still has covered it.

But you don't think she did it.

No, I think somebody, this was, I think we covered it like three years ago now, so I'd have to refresh myself on it.

But I think somebody killed him 100%.

I think somebody came into the house and then staged his death to look like a suicide in his backyard.

Like

because he was a kid, probably didn't do a whole lot of like research into whether it was actually suicide or not.

Sean's case, um, I think we called that case what happened to Sean because that's what the page was called, and that's what she was like putting it out there as the his mom.

But it's so upsetting to see that.

And this poor woman knows that her son didn't do that.

He had like everything he was like playing his video game right before, and like he was home and you know, he had gone to school that day.

And like, it was very normal.

And that doesn't mean that you can't take your own life if you have a normal day.

But she knows that he didn't do it.

And the details are so creepy that we know he didn't.

And the police aren't doing what they need to do.

It's just so sad.

Would you ever bring your podcast to the ID channel?

We did a little something with ID.

We interviewed Holly Madison for episode 500 a couple months ago.

And so we were like talking to the PR woman at ID and she was like, let's work together again.

So she's emailed us since.

So I think that would be really fun.

That would be really cool.

That would be down.

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My God, I hope I didn't butcher like a thousand true crime details.

It's just like we cover so many that I'm like,

I can't even remember the year the case we covered last year or last week happened.

You know, it's just like crazy.

Um, do people remember?

Like

people know your aunt disappeared, though, right?

Like your listeners and stuff.

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've talked.

Well, we covered it in episode 200, I think, or maybe 100, episode 100.

It was episode 100.

But I haven't covered it since I was gonna like redo it recently but I wrote a piece for Oprah Daily recently that came out about her disappearance and like when I posted about it most people already knew well what what do you think is the best way for people to get their stories told for like the smaller stories that don't get the big media coverage like what is the best way to get eyes on those cases it's really sad because families shouldn't have to put boots on the ground themselves because this is just something that happened to them right but unfortunately if the media isn't naturally picking it up and police aren't doing their due diligence or the case is just cold and they don't have enough and that's not their fault,

it's really unfortunate.

But just like we're talking about Sean, his mom made a Facebook page.

That's the only reason I found out about this story.

So, and that's the only reason we covered it because if she just stayed quiet, nobody would know that his, that her son probably did not take his own life and that he was murdered and justice still needs to be served.

So I think trying to reach out to podcasts, a lot of families reach out to us.

And we just try our best to like prioritize those cases.

Again, if there's enough there that we can talk about.

So yeah, I think just reaching out to people as much as you can, making pages on social media.

A lot of people we see on TikTok, like Mara Murray's sister is still out there on TikTok trying to get Mara Murray's case out.

I don't know who that is.

That's one of like, that's also another really big disappearance case that's super ambiguous.

Like she vanished from her car after like a minor car accident.

I forget what it's in the northeast.

In the northeast.

Yeah.

That's a really big case.

You should never hear me.

I actually didn't even know about the Karen Reed case until

I just learned about it and I still haven't really, I only know what someone, what Beth Karis told me.

I don't know anything about it.

Yeah, we, we covered that in, I think, March and that was the first time I had heard about it.

But there was already, there's so many, there's so many true crime cases out there.

My, one of my, um, at my high school, I think it was the math teacher, Mr.

Green, that went missing on a hiking trail and just never came back.

He was with a group of people.

We have no idea what happened.

See, the hiking ones are always hard because a lot of people's minds go to, oh, they probably fell off a cliff, but that doesn't always happen.

Like, you fell off a cliff, but where was the rest of your group?

Yeah.

And where's the body?

Like, he just never recovered, never found the body.

How did he go missing if he was with a group?

Did he like get separated?

Nobody knows.

So they never.

Girl, let's look into it.

Like, we are covering this case.

That's our next collab.

What do you think is the most important detail to share with your audience when you're covering

a true crime case?

I think just trying to humanize them, we always dive into

their early life, you know, and talk about their personality and what their family and friends thought of them.

And I think it can sometimes come off as, oh, they lit up a room, you know, they did it.

I'll note that for your episode.

But so sometimes it kind of seems like that when we do, you know, we're recording so many episodes and we're talking about it and we're saying how amazing everybody is.

But it's like, I do think it's important that everybody gets their moment to talk about what they were interested in and have their family say, oh, they were going to be this.

They were trying to do this and not just talk about what happened to them.

I feel like a lot of podcasts or shows just go straight to the murder, straight to the disappearance.

And we really like to start the first like,

I don't know, maybe like 10 or 15 minutes about their background just to like make people see that they were a person that was also not just murdered, but that they were a person.

Right.

And that their life before they were murdered mattered.

Yeah, that they had so much life before.

Going back to The Night Watcher.

Um, you guys can buy this at Barnes and Noble, Amazon, wherever you guys get your books.

But what was your favorite part about writing The Night Watcher?

I think just honestly, the scary parts of the book, because there's, do you get scared easily?

Yes.

Okay, I think you'll be a little scared.

Right.

It was on, it was featured on CBS Mornings recently, and she said that the book should come with a warning that you can't read it at night.

The night watcher, but don't read it at night.

Yeah.

It's like, because I really loved focusing on making the book as scary as I could because I love horror movies.

Like, I have such a horror background.

Like, I grew up watching a lot of Alfred Hitchcock and Universal Monster movies and just always loving horror across the world.

Do you read the horror genre?

Have you read it?

Not really.

I just got Tender as the Flesh.

I have not read it yet.

Okay.

I feel like I know.

I bought a different book that sounds like that recently.

You haven't read it.

What's it about?

No, but it's horror.

It's in the horror genre.

I feel like.

And it's a cannibal, I think.

I knew you were going to say that.

Okay.

Like, good for you for writing that love.

But that's my problem.

Is I feel like a lot of horror books, like, I read a horror book recently.

I mean, I wouldn't call it a horror book.

I think it has horror themes, but it's very inconspicuous.

It's called Bloom by Delilah Dawson.

And it's a cannibalistic story.

And

I didn't really get that at first.

And then I was like, oh.

And now every time I think about it, I'm like, oh, six years on it.

But I feel like so many horror books are like about eating people.

Yeah.

And I don't like that.

I think there's another one that I have that I got.

Is it called Brother?

I don't like gore.

No, so horror is not, not it.

I like horror because I like being scared, like fictionally, but I like, I read thrillers more because I like the like tension building and the creepiness of that.

But I do, I do think it's really hard for me to find a book that scares me.

I actually read a book called Diabola by Jennifer Thorne.

It's, it's like a horror and it takes place in Italy.

And it's this girl who goes on vacation with her like horrible family that you just.

hate so much because they're just terrible people.

And

so I also don't love that because I'm like the whole time I'm like, I hate every last one of you because you're so rude, you know?

But it's about this like demon in the house, like in this old Italian villa.

Okay.

And she describes the woman standing behind her in the mirror with like bright yellow hair and like hovering directly behind her every time she looks in the mirror.

So I think horror in that way, like when I go to the bathroom in the night, I think about her behind me, you know?

So I like that kind of horror.

Okay.

So, so I think that's why writing Nightwatcher was fun and focusing on how to make like the perfect serial killer almost, but also make it realistic to when we learn everything.

Right.

Like, oh yeah, that would happen and kind of use my knowledge, but kind of tweak the, the really scary parts and just make them really, really scary.

That was super fun.

Did you read

Butcher and Blackbird?

No.

Okay.

That's like a serial killer vibe that you might like.

It has a lot of dark humor, though.

Butcher and the Blackbird?

Butcher and Blackbird, yeah.

Okay.

Well, check it out.

And I think there's

a sequel to it, too.

Oh, cool.

I love that, like, stalking, lurking, like someone's behind.

Dark romance.

Yeah, I need the romance.

There's a little romance in my book.

Do you like romance?

I like dark romance.

Okay.

Like BTK.

Bind me up.

Bind me up.

Girl.

Have you seen that picture of him?

No.

Girl, look it up.

Look up BTK.

He's not cute.

No, well, he's wearing, do you know that he would put on his victim's clothes and

wear them, the girl's stuff and everything have you seen weird pictures of it though.

No, he's like very homely looking You know what he reminds me of Walt from breaking bad

Like this is

right

What's his name Brian Cranston like he could play BTK in a movie.

He should

call Brian up he was married

To his wife even through like he's 80 years old now.

Wow.

Wait, he's married now.

I thought it said he was it's um they divorced in 2005, but like that would be crazy if she stayed with him while he went to prison.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Interesting.

Scary.

Oh, he's also a Pisces.

Wow.

No.

What does that say about you, Kale?

I mean,

there's nobody I want to kill, though.

Anyways, where can people find your podcast?

And where can people find your book?

And where can people find you?

Going West is available anywhere you listen to your podcasts.

Nightwatchers, it's like still coming out in bookstores.

Like a lot of people are DMing me.

Like, I can't find your book in person.

so it's still like rolling out.

It's, I think, Barnes and Noble is like, you're going to find it there unless they sold out of copies or something.

Um, and but like, it's at the strand.

Like, I'm going to go see it at the strand, you know, because why not maybe sign some copies?

But like, it's on Amazon, it's target.com, but it's not at Target.

Okay.

So, like, just go online and you'll find it.

And then, where can people find you on social media?

Oh, okay.

Um, my Instagram is at daphne.wollsoncroft.

And then I'm also on TikTok at DaphneWool.

Perfect.

I've been making videos lately.

I'm proud of me.

I'm going to put myself out there.

Book Talk will be good for Night Watcher.

Yes, Book Talk, absolutely.

Thank you so much for coming on Barely Famous.

Thank you, Kale.

It's so fun.

Yes.

Hi, I'm Adam Rippon, and this is Intrusive Thoughts, the podcast where I finally say the stuff out loud that's been living rent-free in my head for years.

From dumb decisions to awkward moments, I probably should have kept to myself, nothing's off-limits.

Yes, I'm talking about the time I lost my phone mid-flight and still haven't truly emotionally recovered from that.

There might be too many sound effects, I've been told to chill.

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