From Case Files to Fiction with Ashley Flowers

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Speaker 9 Welcome to the shit show. Things are going to get weird.

Speaker 9 It's your fae villain, Kale Lower.

Speaker 9 And you're listening to Barely Famous.

Speaker 9 Welcome back to another episode of Barely Famous Podcast. Today we have Ashley Flowers.
Welcome to Barely Famous. Thank you.
And congratulations, publish day for the missing app.

Speaker 10 Yeah, so exciting.

Speaker 9 I know. Okay, you said it took you for you read, you wrote it a long time ago.
Yeah. Okay, so tell me about it.
Let's talk about it. Yeah.

Speaker 10 Well, the book's been done for like a year and a half.

Speaker 9 Oh, so what was that waiting for?

Speaker 10 Man, publishing.

Speaker 10 I like, it was like, you have to find all the right times, right? So like the publishers need like a certain amount of time to like get it in bookstores, sell it.

Speaker 10 Then it was like, by the time it was ready, it was going to be the election. It was like, not ideal.
Yeah. And then they're like, okay, we can wait till January, but then like.

Speaker 10 who knows what's going to happen this January. Yeah.
And so we just, it just kept pushing and pushing and pushing. So we landed on May 6th.

Speaker 10 Somehow, it felt like it was never going to come, but here we are. Yeah.

Speaker 9 No, it's a perfect timing, I feel, because we're just coming off of spring break, but going into the summer, so people will have more time to read.

Speaker 10 Beautre. That's what I'm hoping for.

Speaker 9 Okay, so what inspired the missing half?

Speaker 10 So for me.

Speaker 10 I don't know how.

Speaker 10 It's always just like an idea that comes to me. So the same for my first book, All Good People Here.

Speaker 10 It will be whether it's a concept or one twist. And then for like my writing process is kind of built around that one thing.
Okay.

Speaker 10 Which like I realized I had an event last night with Gillian Flynn and I was listening to like her and like very legit authors talk about their process. And I was like, oh, that's not how.
I do it.

Speaker 9 No, I've interviewed a lot of authors and all of their, none of them have a similar process.

Speaker 10 And that's what they said too. They were like, none of them.
They're like, our biggest advice people, people get so caught up in like, how do you do it?

Speaker 10 And taking the writing class and like taking the course and reading the book about writing.

Speaker 10 And they're like, the best thing you can do is just put pen to paper and start writing for yourself and figure out what your process is.

Speaker 9 So do you just like carry a notebook around and write notes down all day, or do you sit down and you do deadlines and you, you know, create a schedule for yourself?

Speaker 10 Um, so my notes app is

Speaker 10 psychotic. Oh, yeah, it's psychotic.

Speaker 10 Um, but I have, I have like a list of ideas, and then what the way that I'll my actual process for this is once I have the idea, I have a co-writer who's like one of my best friends now.

Speaker 10 Her name is Alex Keister, and her and I go away, we like lock ourselves in a cabin or in something for like three days.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 we get the whole book plotted out. We know the beginning, the middle, the end, every twist in between.
We know pretty much how every chapter is going to go.

Speaker 10 And then once we feel like we have the book, then we set deadlines for like, okay, we need the third of the book done by this time, second, and you know, we should be completely done.

Speaker 10 Like then we'll set deadlines for ourselves.

Speaker 9 I don't know how you do it because I'm just a fly-by-the-seat of my pants person. So I think I would just be, it would take me a year and a half to write a book.

Speaker 10 I have too much going on to fly by the seat of my fans anymore, which I don't even know how you do it all.

Speaker 9 So how did you, did you always know that you wanted to write books?

Speaker 10 No, I didn't know that I wanted to like tell stories for a living. I, my degree is in biomedical research,

Speaker 9 which is so different from what you ended up doing.

Speaker 10 Completely. Every time I, I always tell people, like, I kept reinventing myself, which is like.
Also, my greatest advice to someone is like, you're never stuck in what you're doing.

Speaker 10 And you get one life if you like try new things. So I thought I wanted to go into medicine early on.
And so I worked full-time at a hospital, was going to school for that.

Speaker 10 Thank God I worked full-time at a hospital because I actually saw what that life was like. Not for me.
Okay. Fair.
I mean, you wouldn't have known unless you did it. I know.
Yeah.

Speaker 10 And so then I went into research. I did genetics research.
So I moved back home to Indiana and did genetics research at the University of Notre Dame. And I was putting spider DNA into silkworms.

Speaker 10 And then what? I know. Yeah.

Speaker 9 What does that do?

Speaker 10 Are you like creating like a so they uh spider thread is incredibly strong, but like the web tangles it so you can't use it.

Speaker 10 Silkworms like spin it in one thread, but so they wanted the really strong thread, but like in a way that they could like use it for, I mean, I think they use it for like Kevlar vests, all these like crazy things you wouldn't think of.

Speaker 9 So it was like a hybrid?

Speaker 10 Yeah. So I did that.
Spider-Man stuff.

Speaker 10 I did that. And then after that, I went into like a very small six-person startup company selling a device that disinfected medical, like hospital rooms.
Right.

Speaker 10 And then after that, when I was done with that, I was like, you know what? Like time to reinvent myself again. Medical sales, not for me.

Speaker 10 And I googled companies that let you bring your dog to work.

Speaker 9 And like you googled that?

Speaker 10 Yeah, in Indianapolis, like companies in Indianapolis where I can bring my beloved dog to work. I love this so much.

Speaker 10 And I found this software company. They're a custom software company.
So I went and did business development for them. And it was when I was working with them that I started the podcast.

Speaker 10 So there was like a year overlap where I was doing both. And I like growing up, I just like, I never thought I was a creative person, but I don't think I allowed myself to be.

Speaker 10 I didn't think there was a future or a viable future. Right.

Speaker 10 I think like my parents were just very practical. We grew up very poor.

Speaker 10 And it was like, you got to find like, you got a good career, something that's going to be like stable, something you can, like, no matter where you go, you can get a job.

Speaker 10 Looking back though, like, it was right in front of me.

Speaker 10 Like, I have video after video where I wrote a mystery story and and made my sister and my cousin were like all acting it out and i'm directing it i even like inserted commercials because apparently back then i knew you had to pay for it somehow some way you're gonna fund it yeah so like all the signs were there and it wasn't you know until i fell in love with podcasting but what made you leap take the leap into podcasting right because we you started crime junkies around the same time i started my first show in 2017.

Speaker 9 and i'll be honest with you i only did it because my co-host asked me she reached out to me and was was like, hey, do you want to start a podcast?

Speaker 9 And everything that I learned about in, you know, going to school for radio, TV, and film was like, there's no money in podcasting. This isn't going anywhere.

Speaker 10 And so I was just like, I'll do it for her.

Speaker 9 And I didn't actually want to do it. So like, what made you even want to get into podcasting?

Speaker 10 So I.

Speaker 10 My best friend, Brett, who I do crime jamming. Yeah, yeah.
She had been trying to get me to listen to podcasts for years. She was like early, like 2010s onto podcasting.

Speaker 9 Oh, one of the early birds.

Speaker 10 Yeah. And I, because I drove a ton for work.
I would, I audio booked out the wazoo and she would tell me about podcasts and I was like, that sounds terrible. Yeah.

Speaker 10 I'm not going to listen to one of those.

Speaker 10 That's where I was.

Speaker 10 And she, I finally, she got me with cereal. So in 2014, I got obsessed with cereal.

Speaker 10 And then I was looking for anything and everything. I was listening to all of it, the good, the bad, the in-between, but like all crime stuff, because that's what I'm into.
And there just was not.

Speaker 10 the format I was looking for. There just wasn't enough good content back then.

Speaker 10 And so I spent a few years just kind of, A, learning the space and like what's working, what's not working, what do people respond to? What does it seem like they like?

Speaker 10 And B, kind of just waiting for someone else to make the show I wanted to hear. Okay.
And then I finally got to a point where I was seeing that there was no barrier to entry into podcasts.

Speaker 10 Like anyone could do it. And

Speaker 10 why not try to make the show that I, as a listener, want to hear? Which has kind of been my premise for so much of crime junkie and like the community is it's me. Like I know what I want.

Speaker 10 I know what I was looking for. And it's how I've decided even to go into like books, into publishing.
Like everyone initially was like, we just want a true crime book from you, Ashley.

Speaker 9 Well, it makes sense.

Speaker 10 Right. And I was like, no, you're like not understanding.
You're like putting my listeners in a box. Like they're not just into true crime.
I'm a crime junkie and I love fiction novels. Right.

Speaker 10 And I think that my.

Speaker 10 my community like are looking for different ways for us to show up in different places. 100%.

Speaker 9 And you've been doing a press tour. So what's that been like?

Speaker 10 It's been wild because I'm on tour for Crime Junkie right now.

Speaker 10 And as the book came out, so like Friday, we did Radio City Music Hall, and then, which was wild.

Speaker 10 And then I like had to go to Boston and did Boston. Then I came right back to New York.
And then it was like the Today Show and then an event with Gillian Flynn.

Speaker 9 I thought you were on a press tour for your book.

Speaker 10 I am now. Okay, so I'm also on tour for Crime Junkie.
Crime Junkie.

Speaker 9 Okay, so people can go see Crime Junkie live.

Speaker 10 I've got two more shows left.

Speaker 9 So why did I not know this? I don't know. It's so weird because like on social media, I'll have like we did tour last year and they're like, how did I not know you were coming to my city?

Speaker 9 And it's like the algorithm, if you don't see it, you don't see it and you completely miss it.

Speaker 10 And what's wild to me too, and this is like we're going on a social media tangent. We've been studying a lot.
The way that like the algorithm is, the algorithm is changing things.

Speaker 10 It's like, it doesn't matter if you even follow the person. You won't see it.
Why?

Speaker 10 I want to know. Like I'm following this person for a reason.
And I feel like the algorithm overrides even like what you're subscribed to or what you're following.

Speaker 9 I literally thought it was for the book tour only.

Speaker 10 No, yeah. We're on, we're on crime.
I got two shows left. I've got one in Phoenix and we go out with a bang in Las Vegas.
Oh, that's so exciting.

Speaker 9 Yeah. And I've heard it's fun to go to Las Vegas right in the spring.
So it's like right before it gets too hot.

Speaker 10 Oh, yeah. I mean, it's the desert.
It'll be hot. It'll be hot.
I guess it'll be hot before it is.

Speaker 9 So when you first started Crime Junkies, did you then, so Britt wanted to, wanted you to listen to podcasts. So did you go to her and you're like, all right, let's do this?

Speaker 9 Or you kind of just came to the idea together and we're like, we're going to podcast?

Speaker 10 I really wanted to start the show.

Speaker 10 And to me, it only makes, again, my idea of the show show I wanted was two people, really where one person was telling the story and the other person was kind of the representation of the whole audience that was listening.

Speaker 10 Okay. And it really was what Brit and I's friendship is like, where like, like, I would come to her and just tell her these stories I would find.
We'd have a conversation about it. And it just,

Speaker 10 I never, it's not like I auditioned friends. Like it never occurred to me it would be anyone else just because that was the natural dynamic Brit and I had.
Yeah.

Speaker 10 And I mean, yeah, she was like, she's totally, she was so down for it. I love that.

Speaker 9 Yeah. And then when you decided you were going to write books, did you just go to her and say, I think I'm going to write a book?

Speaker 10 I don't even know that I went to her. I think, I think I went to her like afterwards and I was like, I have a book.
Will you read it? She's like, can you be my beta reader? Yeah.

Speaker 9 I love that. What did she think? What was the reaction that you got, I guess, for both books?

Speaker 10 She loved it.

Speaker 10 I actually, I leaned on her pretty heavy before the book was done on the first one because I set the first book in Wakarusa, Indiana, which is close to where I live, but it is the town Britt grew up on.

Speaker 10 So, like, I was imagining like her farmhouse when I was writing so much of it. And so, I had her just read it to be like, Okay, make sure I didn't mess anything up.

Speaker 10 Does it feel really authentic to you who grew up in Waukarusa? So, I leaned on her hard for that.

Speaker 9 And you guys grew up together, you were childhood friends, is that right?

Speaker 10 We were born on the exact same day, shut up, and we have been best friends for 36 years.

Speaker 9 Are you kidding me? No, how did you meet then? And your parents met in the hospital, or what?

Speaker 10 Our moms, our moms were best friends. So, we grew up in this like very insular cult-like church.

Speaker 10 So our moms were best friends and her parents had been trying to get pregnant for a really long time, 11 years.

Speaker 10 And they finally decided they wanted to explore adoption and had like done all their paperwork and stuff. And at the same time, my mom had gotten pregnant.

Speaker 10 And so Britt's mom came to visit my mom in the hospital when she had me. And she's like, you know, it was a very bittersweet.

Speaker 10 feeling like I was really excited for my friend, but at the same time, really sad that this was something that I couldn't have that I wanted so bad.

Speaker 10 And my mom told her, she's like, well, for all you know, your baby could be being born right now. Like, right? She's looking at adoption.

Speaker 10 And then a couple of months later, they got Brit and found out she was born the exact same day.

Speaker 10 As crazy as that. You've never known a life without each other.
I love that.

Speaker 9 Would you ever write a book with her?

Speaker 10 It's so funny. There was this one case that like pre-crime junkie.

Speaker 10 over margaritas and just in salsa one time we're like we should make this a book so there's like definitely bullet points somewhere but i i don't know

Speaker 10 her and I would work very differently too. I don't know.
Really? Yeah. I don't know what like getting through a whole book would like look like with the two of us.

Speaker 9 That might be fun.

Speaker 10 Oh yeah. She's like the spreadsheet queen.
She'll keep me organized for sure.

Speaker 9 I think that's my dynamic also when I show up to podcasts. My co-hosts always have topics and I just show up.

Speaker 9 It's like I'll ad lib off of whatever you're saying because I don't have enough original thoughts, apparently.

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Speaker 9 Okay, so was there any point during this writing process with For the Missing Half that you were like, this is it? This is going to be the book?

Speaker 10 I mean, I...

Speaker 10 I don't feel like I am a creative enough person to like figure it out as I go. I would not have started writing it if I didn't didn't think it was the book.
Okay.

Speaker 9 So you already knew before you even started. Yeah.

Speaker 10 Like, so that's what I'm saying. Like once I have that idea, I'm like, this idea or the couple of points I have is like, are like great enough that I know this will be a banger for sure.

Speaker 10 If I can figure the other pieces out. And for this one, I felt like I had the beginning, a couple twists and the end.
And I was like, as long as I make it all make sense together,

Speaker 10 it's going to like surprise people. It's going to be a really fun ride for crime junkies.
Okay.

Speaker 9 I literally have no idea how you do it because you talk about crime cases on your podcast and now you're writing about it. Do you ever like feel like it's heavy or like for your mental health?

Speaker 9 You're like, okay, I've had enough for a minute.

Speaker 10 No. Really? No.
Like, and I, some, I, I've always say some people I think are just built to live in this world. Yeah.

Speaker 10 I think it's why you can be like in the FBI or working like crimes against children. Like some people can just operate in a darker space.
So I think I'm just, I'm built for it.

Speaker 10 Um, like it's all, it's all I consume. I mean, every once in a while, like, I'll pop over to a reality show for sure.
Like, yes, I was on like Temptation Island immediately. Like,

Speaker 10 but

Speaker 10 it's not as dark, I think, for me as many people find it because of the work we're doing.

Speaker 10 So, if I was just consuming, consuming, talking about, talking about it, about how terrible the world was, about all the bad people and all the way things could go wrong

Speaker 10 and stop the end, like, yes, that would get very heavy. But we, I mean, we started with this very like mission focused, I mean, from day one

Speaker 10 of wanting to really like change the way true crime is consumed, the way people interact with the community, engage with the content, create the content.

Speaker 10 And we've done a ton of advocacy work, worked with a ton of families and law enforcement. And so, in a way, it's like by talking about it, I feel like we're making the world better.

Speaker 10 And I have this sense of like, okay, if we weren't here doing this, like, who would be?

Speaker 10 And I think without the other end of that, it would get really heavy.

Speaker 10 But since I've had that since the beginning, even when I was just a consumer before I started, started the podcast, I felt heavy about just consuming it all.

Speaker 10 So I started volunteering with my local Crime Stoppers. I was on their board of directors.

Speaker 10 It was kind of like what even, that was like the other half of what led me into podcasting because they were looking for ways to get the word out about their program.

Speaker 10 It was like, I mean, I was the youngest person on the board by far. And so they're like, you know, everyone thinks we're this like Smokey the Bear or Scruff McGruff dog.

Speaker 10 We need to advertise. And so

Speaker 10 if you listen to like very, like our first couple of episodes are like baked in ads for crime stuffers, which makes sense, right?

Speaker 9 I mean, that makes sense to me. But I still find it so fascinating that so many of us, myself included, are so fascinated by true crime.
Because what about it?

Speaker 9 What is the morbid curiosity that we all have?

Speaker 10 I mean, I think we all like looking into like the darker parts of humanity.

Speaker 10 I think it says a lot about who we are as a person, as a community, as a society. So, like getting a peek, when people feel like they can get a peek at that from a distance,

Speaker 10 I mean, you know, right? I feel like it's why people like watching like reality TV too. They want to see like other people's lives be messy.

Speaker 9 But why? You know what I mean?

Speaker 10 Because I think it makes them feel like theirs isn't so bad. And I think a lot of people have

Speaker 10 very heavy trauma. I mean, I think the statistics are like one in four women experience sexual abuse in their life.
Like, I think very heavy things happen.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 there is this like a little bit of like, well, it could be worse or like, at least that didn't happen to me. So I think there's a piece of that.

Speaker 10 I think there's a piece of our human nature just wants to make sense of things that don't make sense. And like we're constantly trying to solve things, to bring order to things.

Speaker 10 So we're wanting to solve the mysteries.

Speaker 10 And then I think for a subset of our listeners and particularly women, many of the crimes are happening to women and I know when I used to listen what a lot what I was listening for was like or watching for whatever I was consuming is like what went wrong like how did that happen what could have happened differently like how do I learn something take something from this to not put myself in a scenario and we do a ton of like education on the show that like that people, I mean, we get emails all the time from people that were like, if I had not heard X, Y, and Z, like in this, like this situation happened to me, I think it would have ended very differently.

Speaker 9 How do you think people who listen to crime junkies or read your books can change the way that they're consuming the true crime because obviously we're not going to stop consuming it right um but you know how can we help i guess um i know you talked about crime stoppers and things like that but i think there's a lot of ways i mean i think at the at the very basic way it's making sure you're consuming something that you feel good about.

Speaker 10 Is what you're consuming, was that created strictly for sensational purposes? Is there a higher mission? Like what, how does the family feel about what's being created?

Speaker 10 I mean, there are a lot of questions to ask, and each person needs to decide what's important to them. But I mean, truly, just like the choice you make in hitting play is...

Speaker 10 Funding ad dollars is telling studios and industries what to make more or less of. So I think that there is power just in that.

Speaker 10 And then there are tons of ways for people to get involved in a deeper level. I mean, we do a ton of call to actions at the end of our episodes.

Speaker 10 So, I mean, there's sign the petition, write the letter to the attorney attorney general.

Speaker 10 And then there's tons of ways the way I got involved with Crime Stoppers. I mean, there's a ton of nonprofits nationally, locally, for people to get involved in.

Speaker 10 And so it's really up to each individual person in

Speaker 10 what they want to do. But I mean, truly, just the way what you hit play on is changing consumer behavior as well.

Speaker 9 I agree. I think you're,

Speaker 9 I think Crime Junkies is the only

Speaker 9 true crime podcast I've heard have a call to action at the end, but I don't know.

Speaker 10 There are definitely others.

Speaker 9 I'm sure there are. I just, I don't, not off the top of my head that I can't think of.
So I think that's really cool that you guys do that.

Speaker 9 Yeah, for sure. What do you think sets this book apart from, you know, other books in the same genre?

Speaker 10 The,

Speaker 10 it really is like all of my know-how behind it. So

Speaker 10 I think

Speaker 10 I really paid attention to a couple of things when I was writing this book. Like I, the same way Crime Junkie the Show was made for me and listeners like me, I wrote this book for readers like me.

Speaker 10 I am the reader who like chapter two or three, I'm like guessing based on like the order in which people are introduced, like, all right, you're sus, like you're here. I think this twist is coming.

Speaker 10 I know like, oh, well, this can't, like, I, I know every twist coming. I, oh, like, I can guess the ending like 99% of the time.

Speaker 10 And so I really wanted to surprise even those people that felt like they've read it all, seen it all, done it all. Yeah.

Speaker 10 And I think having the knowledge that I do, like, I mean, I've told 700 crime stories at this point, something close to that. I've consumed even more.

Speaker 10 I know what makes a great twist. Like in all of that content, I know what has stood out to me after all these years.
And so incorporating those pieces, I feel like you get like the best of the best.

Speaker 10 And it's so realistic too. Like I, I.

Speaker 10 painstakingly made sure that this book felt like it could happen. Like there's no cheats to anything.

Speaker 10 Like it's grounded in reality, even the relationships between victims and law enforcement, victims, and each other, and victims in the media, I've seen those conversations and those relationships play out.

Speaker 10 And so, I wanted it to feel, even though people will know it's fiction, it feels like it's rooted in reality.

Speaker 9 And I appreciate that. As a fiction girly, just overall, I don't love thrillers that have such far-fetched theories and like twists.
I mean, okay, now this isn't for me.

Speaker 10 Are we like, it's like we're venturing into sci-fi? Yeah, like this isn't for me.

Speaker 9 And so, I do appreciate the realistic um

Speaker 9 grounded in reality honestly um but so when you are covering cases on crime junkies but then also with your novels like how do you

Speaker 9 how does your brain work do you feel like you can solve some of these like unsolved mysteries because i feel like when you have that type of brain that you just you're like this is it well i think every crime junkie does i think like our our anthem is probably like get me alone in a room with that case file and i will be the one to solve it there are a couple cases though that i just don't think that i like, I obviously have my own theory, but not one that I'm like, okay, this is what happened.

Speaker 10 For sure. Like, and I, I agree.
I don't know. Well, that's the thing.
I think I could solve it given the right power and resources.

Speaker 10 Like, if I were the one who could order the DNA testing or go actually interview the person, but I don't know that there are, is any.

Speaker 10 that are unsolved that I'm like, oh, without a doubt, I know.

Speaker 10 No.

Speaker 9 Not even John Bene Ramsey.

Speaker 10 I do not know anything without a doubt in that case. Really? Dude.

Speaker 9 I thought maybe you had it figured out. Like you would be the one to figure it out.

Speaker 10 Listen, I'm still trying. Just because our episode is done does not mean that you haven't stopped thinking about it.

Speaker 10 It does not mean I didn't have a meeting a week ago to talk about this case with our legal counsel.

Speaker 9 I think everyone was really impressed and also really excited that you got to interview John Ramsey.

Speaker 10 In his home.

Speaker 9 What was that like to interview him in his home?

Speaker 10 It was weird.

Speaker 9 Did you get any eerie feelings?

Speaker 10 Yeah, but like, how much of that is me? And how much, like, it was, it was just, I think, a strange sensation overall. I mean, because truly, I mean, they've got this,

Speaker 10 what they call their grandkid room. And I mean, John Benet is not a grandkid, but like, she's always six forever.
And there's really like her, her boots and her tap shoes.

Speaker 10 And like to be in that, like the last page she colored at Jay's restaurant, like framed on the wall, like to be in that room was just very, very strange.

Speaker 10 Um, to hear him talk about her in person is really strange because he's so far removed from her as his daughter.

Speaker 9 It almost feels like she's a granddaughter. I think I read online.

Speaker 10 Uh, I don't, I don't know that it's like, I don't maybe, I don't think that's what it is. I mean, like at some point, she, I don't think she, he, she feels like a granddaughter to him.

Speaker 10 I just, she just never got to grow up. Like, they only have six years of memories.
Um, but it was like, you know, it was like we went, we traveled out there, and I thought it was a great interview.

Speaker 10 I got to ask him some tough questions that I didn't really get answers to.

Speaker 10 Um, but it was also interesting to hear him say, like, verbatim, like word for word, the stuff I had just read in like a 1996 transcript. So, I mean, it's

Speaker 9 did your feelings change compared with what you thought before you interviewed him?

Speaker 10 No,

Speaker 10 uh, I think my feelings changed as I started really digging into the case.

Speaker 10 But like the more I dug and dug and dug,

Speaker 10 I

Speaker 10 still don't know what I, again, I can't, I would be lying if I said I know what happened.

Speaker 9 I do not think he did it. That's just my thoughts.

Speaker 9 I won't put you on the spot and ask you what yours are because if you have meetings about it, I don't want to like jeopardize whatever you have going on. But I don't think he did it.

Speaker 9 He might know what happened, but I don't think he did it. That's those are my thoughts on it.

Speaker 10 I truly don't know. No, you don't.
Like, I truly have no idea what happened.

Speaker 10 But I still think that something happened in the house that nobody wants to talk about.

Speaker 9 I do too. That's exactly what I think.
But I don't think it was him.

Speaker 9 I don't know.

Speaker 10 It's so literally nothing makes sense in this case. And like,

Speaker 10 you can, you can spy off forever. Like,

Speaker 10 I can talk about the note for like the next 10 years.

Speaker 10 Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 9 What was your favorite part about writing The Missing Half? And also, what was your favorite part about writing All Good People Here?

Speaker 10 I think

Speaker 10 the fact that it was all fiction was such a nice break because

Speaker 10 I got to still play in the world of mystery and twists and like all the things I love about like trying to solve a case, but with the stakes being

Speaker 10 absolutely as low as they can be. Like there's no real family on the other side of this.
There's no investigation to like hurt. Like I just got to have fun

Speaker 10 without a lot of the pressure of a true crime case. And it was like that's what I enjoyed the most.

Speaker 9 Is there anything that you would pull from real life cases that you've talked about on the podcast and would say, okay, that could make sense in a story? Obviously, not,

Speaker 9 you know, exact things, but just you're like, okay, well, that's a really twisty piece of this case that could work in a book.

Speaker 10 There, yes. And I would say, like, they, I don't really go into it thinking, like, oh, I'm going to put this from this case.
Right, right.

Speaker 10 But they all stay with me enough that I look back and I'm like, I can look at some of the twists and be like, oh, that that reminds me of this case. Yeah.
Okay.

Speaker 10 Like I was talking at the Gillian Flynn event last night.

Speaker 10 There is part of like the theme of this book is the idea that when someone goes missing, especially at a young age, you really get like a snapshot of their life.

Speaker 10 And that 19-year-old, people will infer everything about you about like who you were at 19.

Speaker 10 And because you didn't have the chance to grow up. And like, we were all a fucking hot mess when we were 19.

Speaker 10 And one of the pieces, it talks about how people are picking her apart, like she stole this nail polish or something from a store. And it did remind me of the Maura Murray case.

Speaker 10 She went missing when she was 21.

Speaker 10 And after she went missing, like people just ripped her apart online. I mean, they were calling her a psychopath.

Speaker 10 They were like, I mean, diagnosing her with like mental illnesses based on things like she stole a lipstick or she stole.

Speaker 9 As if that gives any,

Speaker 9 what does that have to do with her going missing right like

Speaker 10 is she less of a human well they're saying like oh it was it all played into who she was and maybe she had more secrets and maybe like so i and i see that happen over and over again where people just feel like they can look at this much of someone's life and like know who they are

Speaker 10 and it's just wild to me so like i will i'll pick out like little things like that in in the rear view and like this in this one too there oh i don't want to spoil it but there's there is one piece of this story that looking back on it i'm like oh my god i know I've heard a story like this before, but now I, for the life of me, can't find what the real story is.

Speaker 10 It's never, it's one I know we never covered, but like it's killing me.

Speaker 9 Yeah, do you feel like you also being in the spotlight? You have audio chuck, you're an author now, you have the podcast, you're a mom, like you're doing all of these things.

Speaker 9 Do you feel like people also pick you apart and feel like they know you based on however much you show?

Speaker 10 Oh, I'm sure. Yeah.
I don't really read a lot of the internet to know what it is they're saying about me. That makes one of us.

Speaker 10 Really? Do you read all the comments? Yeah.

Speaker 9 It's bad. How? I don't know.

Speaker 9 I, and i'm getting better at it like i have like a team that helps me but i you also kind of like grew up in it which has to be a lot harder yeah i feel it and to your point like i feel like i'm still stuck in at 17.

Speaker 9 Like I feel like people still hold on to who I was when I was 17, 18, 19, which is bananas.

Speaker 10 Like weird. Thank God people didn't know who I was at 19.
Like

Speaker 10 if they, if they only looked at that or I went missing, like I would never have the chance to grow up and be like, oh, successful Ashley Flowers. Yeah.

Speaker 10 Girl, I was like a hot mess trying to figure it out watching Teen Mom. Like like i didn't know what i was doing watch teen mom obviously

Speaker 9 it's so weird because i'm like i i guess i don't put myself at on that same level so anytime like you or you know i had carly fortune in here earlier like they i for them to know who i am feels so weird because i still feel like i'm 17 and like just

Speaker 9 not real. I don't know.

Speaker 10 Well, I feel the same way. Like when I go and meet people, I'm always like, I, I'm like, I'm not going to bother anyone, like, but I'm fucking, I'm like, people probably freaked out.

Speaker 10 I don't, I don't know. I don't know, man.
I just, I'm like, it's just me. Like, I don't don't give up.
Yeah.

Speaker 9 So I get that.

Speaker 10 I definitely have imposter syndrome.

Speaker 9 Same. Well, did you have imposter syndrome for this book? Or you were like, it had been so much time since you wrote it that you're like, I'm ready for it to get out.

Speaker 10 Oh, I'm ready for it to get out.

Speaker 10 I think I always do a little bit, but I, and this is, I think this is the really.

Speaker 10 like essential part that I'm grateful for is that a lot of my success didn't come until I was like 30.

Speaker 10 And so I had time to like really figure out who I was and like what was important to me and what, whose opinions I valued and whose opinions actually like would change me and my life and and all of that and so I do have this usually this sense like I want people to love what I because I'm making it for them I want them to love it but if people hate it it's not like it won't kill me no one's gonna hate it I know I'm pretty I'm pretty confident in it I'm pretty confident I'm pretty confident in it like you said I know um how do you separate yeah I kind of touched on this a little bit already but how do you separate the emotional like reality your reality with all of the heavy cases?

Speaker 9 How do you separate them? You just, you just do? Like, do you go home to your family and you're a mom and you don't talk about crime cases?

Speaker 10 Not, I mean, not to my daughter. She's only three right now, but like I talk about it to my husband.
Yeah. I'm, this is, this is what I do for like at work.

Speaker 10 And so like, if I'm not talking to him about the case file, but I'm like reading in bed at night because this is what I enjoy.

Speaker 10 Like that's, I mean, it's like going home and talking to your spouse about what you did at work.

Speaker 9 Is he as obsessed as you are? Because I think I know men aren't. What is that?

Speaker 10 Or at least not. I mean, some of them are into it.
Like, I know

Speaker 10 we have male fans and not creepy ones.

Speaker 10 So far, so far, so good.

Speaker 9 I feel like I've never met a man that is as invested in true crime as I am. Like I fell asleep to the ID channel.

Speaker 10 Same. You know what I mean? Same.
They're very rare. Yeah.
My husband, he's like, well, and it's not even like he doesn't like it. It terrifies him.
Like, I can't watch Law and Order SVU.

Speaker 10 And I'm like, boo, that's like, it's so fake.

Speaker 9 You should make a cameo on SVU.

Speaker 10 You know how hard I'm trying?

Speaker 9 You absolutely should.

Speaker 10 I have been telling everyone it's like on my likes. Which one is your agent?

Speaker 10 Neither. Oh, they're not here.

Speaker 10 We need to get around that. I've been telling them forever.
I was like, I just like, let me play the dead body, if nothing else. Something.

Speaker 9 Like a barista?

Speaker 10 Anything.

Speaker 9 I know. That would be so cool.
If you could be on any.

Speaker 10 The guy who's just like, she's just like stacking shit. Doesn't matter if they're like pair asking about a murder.
She's like, still got to do her job. Like out that way.

Speaker 9 Or even just like act in a

Speaker 9 like a series or something. That would be really cool.

Speaker 10 People love a good crossover. I want to do when the when the book is TV or film or something.
Like that's the goal is to do like a. Is it optioned? No, but it will be.
I'm manifesting.

Speaker 9 Have you had calls about all good people here?

Speaker 10 Yeah. And I like, I just want to make sure it's really hard to like give up your baby to someone

Speaker 10 and let them do with it what they will.

Speaker 9 Well, because I think, at least from what I've heard, they have to like, I don't know how many pages all good people is here or all good people

Speaker 10 here. Here is.
Thank you. Yes.

Speaker 9 i don't know how many pages that is but what i've heard is they have to like cut it down like basically cut it in half to make it into a tv like a movie script and so it's really hard when you've worked so hard on this baby and then they have to cut it and change it to make it fit into you know one and a half hours yeah i can imagine that that would be really hard to

Speaker 10 it's the cutting it's the i mean when i i had some initial conversations and they wanted to change like major plot lines and i was just like but then it changes everything.

Speaker 10 I know, like, just go write another story.

Speaker 10 Why? Why do you even want mine?

Speaker 9 But But

Speaker 9 you have high hopes for this one to be on the big screen.

Speaker 10 Yeah, this one doesn't involve children. Children was also the issue with all good people here.
People are a little wary.

Speaker 10 This one, I think, is like an easier sell. So I think this was like, this is ripe for a limited series or short film or something.

Speaker 9 Okay, so Dreamcast.

Speaker 10 Do you have one?

Speaker 10 I think that for, I haven't thought about all of the characters, but I think that for Nick,

Speaker 10 I really loved Anna Kendrick when in the latest show she did on Netflix about the dating game killer. She's done like a really good like dark character.

Speaker 10 And I don't know, like I could see her being Nick. Okay.
Yeah.

Speaker 9 Anybody else that you've thought of?

Speaker 10 Not really for this one. I spent so much time thinking of all good people here.
I always, I'm like always vying for Merit Weaver. She's incredible.

Speaker 10 I have to like specifically though write an older character for her in my next book because she was in like Nurse Jackie. She was in Unbelievable on Netflix.

Speaker 10 She does oftentimes she's like the sidekick character.

Speaker 10 Like she, she was, for a lot of people who watched Severance, she was

Speaker 10 in Severance.

Speaker 10 Oh, she's so good.

Speaker 9 So, those two people,

Speaker 9 would you want a limited series or like a movie?

Speaker 10 I think for all good people here, a limited series. Okay.
I think for the missing half, a movie.

Speaker 9 That would be so cool. You'd have to get an EP credit.

Speaker 10 I'm like thinking

Speaker 10 close to writing it myself. You should.
Why wouldn't you? Sure. I'll just like, you know, give me a long weekend.
I'll write a movie script.

Speaker 9 Do you have plans for a third book?

Speaker 10 I haven't like, I have not had my writing retreat yet or set deadline. Okay.
However, I do have the one idea to build it all around. Okay.
It has been like sitting with me for probably the last

Speaker 10 year. And so I'm like at the point now where I'm like starting to itch.

Speaker 9 I need to like get it out before it just completely goes out of your head. And do you just put it in your notes app?

Speaker 10 Put it in my notes app. I've told my co-writer Alex about it.
I told my agent about it last night. She

Speaker 10 gave her gooseies. So I know it's a good one.

Speaker 9 I love that. You always know when you have a good feeling, right?

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Speaker 9 What do you hope people take away after reading the missing half?

Speaker 10 I think some of the stuff we talked about where

Speaker 10 in the in the first book, one of the big things that I wanted is just this sense of like, hey, you never know what's happening behind closed doors. Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Speaker 10 And for this one, a little bit of it is that sense of like, you don't, you cannot look at the week, the month, the year leading up to some event and pretend like you know that victim or the way you're going to talk about that victim or like you know them or their family or their circumstances.

Speaker 10 There are just layers and layers and layers.

Speaker 10 And I mean, it go, it ties back to the first, you don't know what's happening in their life, in their family, or who they would have become had they had the time to grow up and make choices, or even if they're older, make, just make different choices.

Speaker 10 So it's a little bit of that like, can we just give people

Speaker 10 the benefit of the doubt? Can we not assume the internet? I just like the way that we feel like we can talk about people we don't know is just wild to me.

Speaker 9 Yeah, I don't know how we get the audacity, to be honest. Crazy.
Yeah, no, for sure.

Speaker 9 Do you have a case or cases that have stuck with you since 2017 or even before that, before you started Crime Junkies?

Speaker 10 All of them. All of them? I have, like, truly, it's my superpower.
Like,

Speaker 10 I could retell you a story that I told a year and a half ago. Like, I, the details of cases are just, like, locked in my brain.

Speaker 10 But there, I mean, there are a few that are just like so wild that if I'm ever like talking to someone about it, they like come up over and over again.

Speaker 10 Like, there's a case of this guy named Robert Wong who who in DC was murdered and he was like in town for work. He like took the train in.
He ended up having to work late. So he doesn't go back home.

Speaker 10 He just stays with friends in the city. His wife and his family are home.
And he gets in his jammies. He goes to bed and he is found with a knife like in his heart.
Like he's been stabbed.

Speaker 10 There's like not no blood. The people in the home, like no one broke in.
They swear that someone had to have broken in, but like they're acting super weird.

Speaker 10 It feels like they showered before police got there.

Speaker 10 It is, it is bizarre, beyond bizarre, and like no one can explain it. And so it's like, it's those where they're obviously always the unsolved ones that I get obsessed with.

Speaker 10 Maura Murray will be like forever what the internet talks about. And I'm right there with them wanting to know what happened.

Speaker 9 How long do you study or research a case before you talk about it on your podcast?

Speaker 10 I think it depends. So if for like the weekly show, we have a team now of reporters.
So they're out like all over the country going in, interviewing family detectives.

Speaker 10 If it's something for like our weekly show,

Speaker 10 usually there's at least a few weeks that go into it, if not longer, because a lot of times we're just juggling a ton of stuff at once and things come together slowly. You have to file FOIA requests.

Speaker 10 You have to line up interviews and you're like doing multiple at a single time.

Speaker 10 But then there are others where we do like, I have a limited series called The Deck Investigates. And me and a reporter spent eight months like

Speaker 10 working on on this nonstop.

Speaker 10 And we got our like 10 episode series or whatever. So it really varies.
It's kind of all over the map. That's incredible.
It's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot of work.
A lot of people go into it too.

Speaker 9 And so then for one episode, you have put months and months or weeks together to do one episode, but then you, the next week, you have to have an episode to hear.

Speaker 10 It's the, I was telling Brett the other day, I was like, I feel like that like old, I don't know if it's a Sesame Street song where it's like, this is the job that never ends.

Speaker 9 Because I've stressed out about just regular recordings and we're just bullshitting our way through the episodes. And I'm like, do we have enough topics for next week?

Speaker 9 And you're over here investigating like lengthy cases.

Speaker 10 It's wild. But again, like this is why we have in the, in early days when we started, I mean, it was just me.
And so I had to do everything in a week. Like.

Speaker 10 That's just how it was. And, but as we've gotten more resources, more, whether it's, you know, money, people, whatever, it's part of the responsibility I feel.
Like, hey, like the show has grown.

Speaker 10 I have to, I have more. I have to do more with what I have.
Right.

Speaker 10 And so I wanted to make sure that we were doing a ton of original reporting, that we were making an effort to cover cases that weren't getting coverage everywhere else.

Speaker 10 And so our, you know, it started with like.

Speaker 10 a couple of four years ago i hired two reporters i was like one for the deck one for crime junkie um and now i mean all of audio check is 80 people and huge 80 people? 80 people.

Speaker 9 Did you ever envision this is where you would be or did you dream big from the beginning?

Speaker 10 I absolutely did not think this is what I was going to be.

Speaker 10 And I never started as like a hobby. Like I did give myself one year.
I was like, this has to be a job because I knew how much time I was going to pour into it.

Speaker 10 But at the one year mark, I was like, if I can't quit my full-time job, I have to quit the podcast. And like right at the one-year mark, I made it.

Speaker 10 But I also, when I left the job I was at, there were like a couple couple of things i saw i mean i saw that like employees were always like it was like the hr of everything i saw it way i'm on the owner of the business i was like oh hr no not for me and then i saw how much i hated slack we use slack i don't use slack the team uses slack yeah i like it drives me bonkers and so i was like so cocky when i left i was like and i love Bob.

Speaker 10 He actually works for me now, who's the owner of the company. But I was like, I was so cocky.
I was like, Bob, I'm never going to have like employees.

Speaker 10 It's just going to be like me and Britt and my brother. And I'm never going to have Slack.
And now we've got 80 employees and like 400 Slack channels.

Speaker 9 And you're like, I can't live without Slack. Yeah.
It's like the AIM of today, like work.

Speaker 10 I have been telling everyone that AOL is missing a huge opportunity. Yeah.
If they made an AIM for business, do you know how quickly us millennials and business owners would...

Speaker 9 Do you know what AIM is, Lyssa?

Speaker 9 Do you? Okay, they're in their 20s, so I didn't know if they knew.

Speaker 9 I never used it. I never used it.
I wish they would bring that back and sidekicks because the sidekicks for AIM business.

Speaker 10 Absolutely. I know.
I'm like, I don't know who at AOL I need to talk to, but AIM for business is my million dollar idea. Yeah, no, truly.

Speaker 9 I'll just be the assistant, the coffee runner while you have that meeting, but that is so funny.

Speaker 9 80 employees is insane.

Speaker 9 And here you are with books and audio chuck and crime junkie.

Speaker 9 How do you do it all? How do you balance being a mom and this?

Speaker 10 I mean, like, I'm trying.

Speaker 10 Hopefully, hopefully it goes well. I like the, you know, proofs in the pudding and she's not grown up yet.
But I think I'm doing a good job. I tell people, like,

Speaker 10 my version of having it all, like, that's just had to change. Like, like, what I wanted to have it all in business is completely different.

Speaker 10 Like, having it all and like mom, like, if I'm going to keep the business going, and you make sacrifices both places. I have to say no to business things to.
spend quality time with my daughter.

Speaker 10 And I've had to skip out on things that like my daughter's doing because I've got work commitments. But I'm like, you know, and in trying to do it, I mean, it makes me tired.

Speaker 10 I've got, I am gone because I'm touring for Crime Junkie and the book. I was gone for a whole week.
So she's in New York City with me right now.

Speaker 10 And like in between meetings, when normally I would like take a break, I'm like, I'm having to play attend.

Speaker 10 But it's so cute because she's like, she got to go see me just say hi on stage every other city. And so now her new favorite thing is she'll like find something that's like a stage.

Speaker 10 She was on the toilet seat today. And she goes, she's like, tastes her little hair.
And then she's like, hi, Crime Junkie.

Speaker 10 And we have to scream for her. And it's freaking beautiful.
I love that.

Speaker 9 I just had my first daughter, so I'll be curious to see how she gets to be when she's around that age.

Speaker 10 She's so fucking spicy.

Speaker 9 Oh, she's spicy now, and she's 18 months old. And she's a twin with a boy.
So the boy is like super cool, calm, and collected, but she's spicy.

Speaker 9 So when you're saying, like, she's on stage and like, oh, yeah. Like, that's my dream for my daughter is for her to like have a fun personality and like be fun.

Speaker 9 So I mean, I'll accept her no matter how she is, but.

Speaker 10 it would be fun to have one that is really a big personality it really is fun and like i forget because sometimes i watch her with other kids and i'm like oh other kids are are kind of boring

Speaker 9 because Josie. She's so real.

Speaker 10 She's just so, like, she's on the carousel with her face painted like a tiger singing as she like goes around.

Speaker 10 Oh, I love that.

Speaker 10 I love that.

Speaker 9 Do you think she'll take over crime junkies when you're done?

Speaker 10 I think she's going to try.

Speaker 10 That would be amazing. But I think she likes the limelight of it too much.
Like, that's like all the red flags in true crime.

Speaker 10 Like, if you're doing this for the limelight, you're in it for the wrong reasons. The recording, the performing is like my least favorite part of all of it.

Speaker 9 Like, like on stage, you mean?

Speaker 10 On stage, stage, even, even like in the podcast, like having to, like figuring out the story and doing the reporting and like all of that, like that is where I find so much joy and like getting it to the finished product.

Speaker 10 But then like, then we have to record it.

Speaker 9 And you don't like that part?

Speaker 10 Yeah, the like the,

Speaker 10 I'm good at it. I know, I know what I'm doing at the end.
But it's not my favorite part, no.

Speaker 9 We were talking about it before you guys came in here that your voice is meant for like podcast radio whatever like in a million years thought that but thank you do you edit your own stuff or does someone else edit because I cannot hear my own voice.

Speaker 9 I don't want to hear my own voice. No, no, no.
When I say it on the podcast, that is the last, the first and last time I'm saying it and hearing it.

Speaker 10 I had to edit like a few episodes early on.

Speaker 9 What do you think the turning point in your success was?

Speaker 9 Like when you said you gave yourself one year and you sort of hit it at that one year mark, for people who are trying to break into the podcasting space or the writing space and want to be an author, like what would you say?

Speaker 9 How did you, how do you think that crime junkies really hit the ground running?

Speaker 10 I mean, for me, it was a lot of like the, I mean, I was doing my own like on the ground marketing.

Speaker 10 I, I had, like I said, I kind of studied what other podcasts were doing and not just like in their content, but I was like watching in the way that they were cross-promoting with other shows and how they were getting the word out.

Speaker 10 And I really knew who my listener was. Like I had that dialed in.

Speaker 10 And so I felt like when I had a little bit of my own money to do marketing like if I or if I had nothing, but I had to go find them, like I knew where to find them because I knew who they were.

Speaker 10 I think if you're, if you go out, and it's like marketing 101, but if you go out and you're like, well, my show is for everybody, okay, well, maybe someday I hope for you, but like who are you trying to talk to today?

Speaker 10 And if you could get a hundred listeners, readers, like who is it for? And the more you know that, the more you can lean into it. Okay.
I think that really helps. But I was doing everything, man.

Speaker 10 I was like, I bought car.

Speaker 10 magnets and would just like everywhere I would drive I'd like drive around with like the crime junkie podcast on my car just like let people know it was a thing I bought these little stickers and every every time i would go to um a bar or a rest stop like i'm like i know who's my audience is these like women i'm like putting them all over women's restrooms i'm like moving cards everywhere so i mean i was like doing boots on the ground stuff myself you sign other shows to audio chuck right so do you help them also break into the space or is it like people that like are you helping them develop or is it um already established shows.

Speaker 10 We've done both.

Speaker 10 And so, but a lot of like what people come to us for if we want to bring a show in the network is that what we have built up is this network.

Speaker 10 And now, I mean, discoverability and podcasting is so hard. And one of the most effective ways to get people to listen is to advertise on other podcasts where the audience is.

Speaker 10 And so having that built-in audience where we're now getting. you know, 10 million people to show up every week.
If we can tell those 10 million people to go listen to something else,

Speaker 10 it's like we've got our own like built-in marketing machine now. Right.

Speaker 9 Okay. That makes sense.
We, um, I have one of my best friends is trying to break into the podcasting space. So, I hope that she listens to this and that helps her.
Oh, perfect.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 9 And, um, where can people find the missing half? All good people here. Tell us where to find you, Crime Junkies and Audio Chuck.
Yeah.

Speaker 10 So, Crime Junkie Podcasts on Instagram. I am Ashley Flowers on Instagram, Ashley Flowers, Crime Junkie on TikTok.
And both of my books are now officially available wherever books are sold.

Speaker 10 I will say that for those who read the first book, there is a Target exclusive book that has a bonus chapter that actually does tie back to the end of All Good People Here.

Speaker 10 And it kind of brings the universes together and it gives people answers, more answers to the end of all good people here. Oh, that's really exciting.
Thank you for coming. I'm Barely Famous.

Speaker 10 Thank you so much. This is amazing.
Yes.

Speaker 19 I'm Caitlin Bristow, host of Off the Vine podcast, where I get real, maybe a little too real sometimes, with my friends and celeb guests from Bachelor Franchise and Beyond.

Speaker 19 I'm talking guests like Jonathan Vaness.

Speaker 19 Nikki Glazer, Wells Adams, Elise Myers.

Speaker 10 Just like in this like business jacket, like I would love some tacos.

Speaker 19 Heidi D'Amilio, Big Brothers, Taylor Hale. I have to bring it up because it happened and we're going to get through it.
What I do. And so many more.

Speaker 19 So come hang out with us, hear ridiculous confessions, and get a little vulnerable because you know what? We're all just floating on this weird little planet together.

Speaker 19 Follow, rate, and review Off the Vine podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts.

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