Halsey: Power Dynamics & Toxic Relationships (FBF)

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Speaker 1 What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy.

Speaker 1 Halsey, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

Speaker 2 Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 I am so happy that we're finally doing this. I feel like I've been waiting to meet you for so long.

Speaker 2 I know, me too.

Speaker 1 So, thank you for coming.

Speaker 1 I realize that some of the daddy gang may not know that your legal name is Ashley, and Halsey is a stage name.

Speaker 1 What do the people closest to you call you?

Speaker 2 Ash. Ash.
Everyone calls me Ash. My son just started calling me Ash.
I was like, you better

Speaker 2 get it together. I'm mommy to you, okay?

Speaker 2 Like, I'm going to start, I'm going to have to make him a shirt and make myself a shirt. It says, call me mommy.
Like, I was.

Speaker 2 He's like, he goes, Ash. I'm like, mm-mm.

Speaker 2 He goes, well, I want to call you Ash. I'm like, well, you can't.
You can't.

Speaker 1 I'm mother.

Speaker 2 I know. I don't know how to explain it to him in a way that doesn't sound like so.

Speaker 2 Like psychotically like you have to respect me and give me this name like there's no way to explain it it. Like, he's like, why can't I call you Ash if everyone else does?

Speaker 2 I'm like, that's a great question. No, it's.
But I just don't like it.

Speaker 1 But I also think it's like the rite of passage. Like, when you become a parent, you're like, give me at least like 10 years of calling me like mom and mommy.
Yeah, you're three.

Speaker 2 Right. You can call me Ash later.
Like, it's like, it's so funny. Yeah, it's, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 Is it weird if anyone in your life would like refer to you as Halsey?

Speaker 2 Some people do. Like, I think it's kind of interchangeable at this point.
I like answer to it the same way as if it was my name. It feels the same in my body.
It does.

Speaker 2 You know, like it feels like, it's like, it registers the same emotionally as if someone says Ash or Ashley.

Speaker 1 Have you ever looked at it like it's an alter ego?

Speaker 2 Recently, yeah. Okay.
I didn't mean to when I started. It was just a name because my name is Ashley Frangiapani and like you can't

Speaker 2 be Fran Gippani.

Speaker 2 You have to say it in your New Jersey accent. My name is Ashley Frangippani.

Speaker 2 So, you know, there was no, that wasn't happening. So it was just supposed to be like an easy like, moniker.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then, yeah, I would say like a couple years ago, I started having thoughts like that were like, oh, well, that's very Halsey. Or like, well, I dress like this when I'm Ash.

Speaker 2 And then I dress like this when I'm Halsey. And then I kind of was like, whoa, when did I start?

Speaker 1 differentiating between the two like when did they become two separate things was that like freaky or no kind of yeah because i was kind of like how did it happen what is the difference between halsey and ashley like give us an example

Speaker 2 well you know what's funny is i think Ashley is like,

Speaker 2 like,

Speaker 2 when I'm Ash, like, I'm definitely way more, I think, masculine than when I'm Halsey.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I'm not really certain

Speaker 2 where that kind of started to divert. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Like, when I'm home, like, I'm like a, I'm like a boy clothes, short hair, like, not to like gender clothes, but like, you know what I'm saying? Like,

Speaker 2 and I'm definitely kind of,

Speaker 2 I think that Ash is like less

Speaker 2 provocative. Like, I'm very like chill, very patient, you know what I mean? Like, very like

Speaker 2 maternal.

Speaker 2 And then I feel like Halsey, a lot of people have this idea that I'm like really provocative. And like, you know, I'm like always like yapping.
I'm a big yapper. Halsey's a yapper.

Speaker 2 Ash is not so much a yapper.

Speaker 1 Have you ever become like a little resentful of the persona that you've created?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely.
I think that the part part of the problem, though, is that like, like, you know, people just kind of decide who you are based on like when they got to know you.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean? Like I've been seeing a lot of that happening. Like every now and then like I'll see like a comment under like a picture of like me and my partner.

Speaker 2 And someone's like, I thought she was dating blah, blah, blah. And it's like someone from like six years ago.
And I'm like, oh, your update.

Speaker 2 And like, I don't expect everyone to know everything about me that's going on at any given moment.

Speaker 2 But like they just locked in something from like a big press moment or like a time when I was like really on or like they were reading about me or a lot and they were like, and that's who you are forever.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, whoa, it's been like six years. So much has happened.

Speaker 1 That's like kind of a mind fuck mentally to be like, no, no, no, I've progressed and grown, but you guys see this persona that like was very there in your minds and it never grew and I've like fully grown as a human being.

Speaker 1 Totally. And yet Halsey is just like.
almost like stuck in time for people, which I think a lot of celebrities or performers have that.

Speaker 2 Like, and everyone decides when they want to grow with a performer or not like yeah it's fucking confusing yeah how would you describe your relationship to fame i'm kind of indifferent at this point i used to be like it used to be not that way it used to be just torturous you know what i mean like i i will say like it never really felt normal it still doesn't like i've i've been doing this for like 11 years You would think at this point that I would just be like, yeah, I'm famous.

Speaker 2 No, that is not how it is.

Speaker 2 I like still wake up every day and not and then then like i wake up every day and i'm like oh my god it's more like i wake up every day and i'm like what the fuck you know what i mean and i think that i also like i've kept like a lot of really normal people around me and

Speaker 2 you know what actually that's the distinction that's when the distinction started happening was that was that when i started to become like a celebrity like the distinction between halsey and ashley i think is very much that like ashley stayed the same you know where like when i'm out with my friends like my best friend erica um she's been my best friend since i was like 13 and she's like she says to me like

Speaker 2 once a month or like a couple times a month like we'll be out somewhere doing something and someone will be like oh can you picture there's like a paparazzi there's like whatever and she'll be like dude i like just forget you're famous every day that's the best i just forget all the time and she's like lived with me she's been around for like every step of the journey she's like backstage at the VMAs with me and then like the next day she's like I feel very famous I'm like how you were at the VMA's yesterday how did you forget?

Speaker 2 And she's like, you just are still so, you're exactly the same as you were. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 I do think like that's so important to have, though, because at the end of the day, like all these people that are famous, it, you're famous for like something that you're really good at, obviously.

Speaker 1 Some people are just famous because they're famous, but like you are so talented and your talent has made you famous, of course.

Speaker 1 But with that, like you are just still a human being that like likes to sleep and likes to eat and likes to chill with friends.

Speaker 1 And so I think having those like friends around you must still make you feel like the person from new jersey yeah was just growing up and like had a talent i think that's helpful to have when do you feel most like yourself like what would you be doing um

Speaker 2 Well, I'm pretty boring.

Speaker 2 I didn't used to be. I like, I got it out of my system.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Like, I, I had like a couple years where I look back on and like cringe into like a black hole when I see those photos or like, but I'm also really grateful for them because I just like did it in a contained set of years and then I'll never have to do it again so like now I'm just boring like no you're not boring but I know what you're talking about I think we all have that where we're like yeah what was I doing like what what would you say you did that was cringe oh my god there's like so many pictures of me just like

Speaker 2 fucked up like leaving a club like

Speaker 2 like paparazzi like it's like three in the morning I'm like what are you doing but also I was like 22 you know what I mean so when I see that I'm like gentle with myself about it.

Speaker 2 But like, or like times where I like,

Speaker 2 I don't know, there's stuff that's like maybe cringe, but also maybe part of me, I'm a little bit like,

Speaker 2 go off. Like, you know, like, I clapped back at someone or I like, you know, like I went off or something like that.

Speaker 2 And like, I see that and I'm like, gosh, you were so angry and so confused and so like overwhelmed and like you had no one to help you. So I have like a lot of compassion for that version of me.

Speaker 2 But then there's also times where I'm like, girl, shut up. You know, I'm like, shut up.

Speaker 2 No, I think that's like no matter if you're famous or not like people can look back at old Facebook photos and be like what was I up to like what was going on there Alex but then at the end of the day you're like well I was fucking young and like I was having I think a good time I mean I didn't go to college you know what I mean so I didn't have like those years and it's funny the same like I feel like the same people who will pass judgment for like photos of me in like my 20s or like not even in my 20s like at 20 you know because I was 19 when I wrote my first album and you know there's like pictures of me from that time and people are like oh gosh like and I feel like there's this almost indication of like no class and I'm like what if I were at like a university and like these pictures were just like on Facebook or like whatever and I was just like going like you would just consider that a natural part of me like finding myself and like you know but because there's this extra set of expectations I think there's like a separate judgment that's passed and like I try to I try to like contextualize it that way and be like girl you would have been doing the same thing if you stayed in Jersey, if you went to Rutgers, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Like, you may have been worse, actually.

Speaker 1 I was gonna say, if you went to Rutgers, you would have been like face up on a keg stand. Like, you would have had pictures of you on the keg stand.
Like, it would have been similar, if not worse.

Speaker 1 I know. Um, how do you choose what to keep private and what to put into your art and your music? Um,

Speaker 2 I don't know that I really

Speaker 2 choose. Okay.
I think it kind of, I just like write what I'm feeling. There's a song on this album called Hurt Feelings, and it's about my dad.
I've written a song about my dad every single album.

Speaker 2 And every single time, just when we get to the time where we're deciding the track list, I cut the song because I'm like, I can't do it. I'm too scared.
I'm too scared. I'm too scared.

Speaker 2 And this time I didn't. And I put it on the album.
And that was like a moment for me where I was like, okay, this is something I have kept private. But now I feel ready to like get out there.

Speaker 2 And I feel like I have a responsibility kind of.

Speaker 1 Do you have a relationship with your father? Like does he know this is going to be on the album?

Speaker 2 He doesn't know it's going to be on the album. We have a pretty complicated relationship, which is like, you know, I don't think that's like groundbreaking.

Speaker 2 I feel like a lot of young women have complicated relationships with their fathers.

Speaker 2 I think for me especially, you know, I started making music when I was 18 and it kind of started to blow up when I was 19.

Speaker 2 And it just changed everything about our family's dynamic because I became the breadwinner and I became kind of like, you know,

Speaker 1 in a way, like I became

Speaker 2 like the matriarch patriarch of my family.

Speaker 2 And I think that, you know, for a man who like spent his whole life like working really hard to support his family, and then, you know, I kind of come in and I'm like still a kid to him and I take that role.

Speaker 2 I imagine that's probably.

Speaker 2 Just like conflicting. Yeah.
You know, in like an existential level. And it definitely showed up in our relationship.
And so it's like affected it since. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I can imagine that was very confusing for both of you. Like also you coming in being like, I don't know what the fuck to do either.
Like this is

Speaker 1 and when you do look back, what is your earliest childhood memory that comes to mind?

Speaker 2 It's so hard. I'm like one of those people that doesn't remember like a lot of their childhood.
I had like a really, I had like a really hectic childhood.

Speaker 2 My parents were really young when they had me. They dropped out of college.
They met at Fairleigh Dickinson in Jersey. And then they were like 19 or 20 when they got pregnant.

Speaker 2 They'd only known each other for like a couple months. And, you know, they both dropped out and started their family with me.
We moved all the time. Every year we moved.

Speaker 2 Like I wasn't at a school until like high school, I wasn't at a school longer than like two years.

Speaker 2 And I was always starting over in a new place. We were just trying to go where there was like cheaper apartments, better jobs.
My parents were working like multiple jobs.

Speaker 2 And like my experience felt so irrelevant to like what they were going through you know what I mean it was like my I think that when I look back on my childhood my experience my experience was very much to just like not get in the way because of how hard it was and like I failed at that miserably I was getting in the way all of the time you know what I mean and then I feel like that has probably attributed to like why I am in like the line of work that I'm in because it's like you know we're all looking to satisfy some sort of like not I don't want to say need for attention because I feel like that's really derogate derogatory, but like

Speaker 2 maybe like

Speaker 2 we're looking for our voice and our experience to matter, you know.

Speaker 1 But don't you feel like even hearing you say that when you're like, I was always in the way, I'm like, yeah, but I feel like that's what kids are supposed to do. Totally.

Speaker 1 And like, I imagine you though, like, under those circumstances of your parents constantly having to move, you were like hyper-aware of just like, stay over here, like, don't do anything, don't like, get in the way.

Speaker 1 Like, I'm not that important right now. do you remember like what you felt about when you would like view your parents like romantic relationship my parents were like really like

Speaker 2 i guess kind of volatile like they were either like super in love and like cuddled on the couch like laid the up like you know going on dates like obsessed with each other like kids or they were like at each other's throats there was like no no in between

Speaker 2 And, you know, like,

Speaker 2 I've actually never really talked about this before, but my household was like pretty, um,

Speaker 2 my household was pretty volatile. You know what I mean? Like there was a lot of like, um,

Speaker 2 there was a lot of like aggression, you know what I mean? Um, and aggression just like thrown in every direction, like, you know, and

Speaker 2 I think that it's so funny because I, it's so obvious that you you witness that you form that as your perception of not necessarily of what love is but what's acceptable in love you know and then that you apply that when I look on past relationships of mine I'm like

Speaker 2 okay I'm like literally this is two plus two equals four like it's so simple you know what I mean

Speaker 1 yeah I'm like oh that was that is why I went for this but it like seems so simple but it's like not also yeah because you don't catch yourself immediately doing it.

Speaker 1 And then when it's like a pattern, then you're like, whoa.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 2 And then it's funny because you think you do the work and then like a different trauma sneaks up on you where it's like, okay, so you're like, all right, I'm going to tolerate like violence or aggression or like whatever it is because I experienced it.

Speaker 2 But now I'm going to unlearn that so it never happens again. And then you get into another relationship and you're like, this one's better because it's not like the last one.

Speaker 2 And then like a different thing sneaks in. You know what I mean? Where it's like the person's like putting you down or they're like, I don't know, like gaslighting you or like, whatever.

Speaker 2 And you're like, is this a whole other thing?

Speaker 2 I'm, this is a whole other thing. Is it all just my childhood again? No, it's like,

Speaker 1 no, literally, it's like whack-a-mole because you're like, oh, maybe it's not like physical this time, but it's like emotional this time, but it's all under the same fucking umbrella. Totally.

Speaker 1 First of all, thank you for sharing that because I feel like you're someone that like you're when you write in your songs, like it's so fucking powerful.

Speaker 1 And I think a lot of people connect to you on how real you are in your lyrics, especially this new album coming out. When I was listening to it, I I was like, I need, I feel like I need to pull over.

Speaker 1 Like, this is, this is like, it's very heavy and emotional. Yeah.
And I feel for you, but I think a lot of people can sadly relate to what you're going through.

Speaker 1 When you were in those moments with your parents and it was volatile, like, were you someone that would just like be alone and not tell anyone?

Speaker 1 How would you like

Speaker 1 basically get through it?

Speaker 2 I think I kind of coped in that way or just like waited for it to be over. You know what I mean? Also, like, like, it changes hands when you're in a household like that.

Speaker 2 Like, it usually starts and it's like you can kind of feel it happening to your mom. And I'm the only daughter and the oldest.
Okay, wow.

Speaker 2 So, there was definitely a point where, like, the target kind of changed to me.

Speaker 2 And you feel, I think, really alone in that, in that sort of situation.

Speaker 2 I definitely.

Speaker 2 just mostly coped by writing. I've always been a writer, like, my whole life.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I like used to keep journals and like keep diaries and stuff like that and I read a lot and I def I was someone who kind of like I was into escapism for sure. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean like novels and like just putting myself into like other worlds that just felt like different than mine. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Would you ever talk to your mom like about it since she has I have.

Speaker 2 Okay. Yeah.
No, I have. My mom and I are super close.
Okay. Yeah.
She's like, my mom is like my, my best friend. And, you know, we have talked about it.

Speaker 2 And like, i think there's a couple stages of it right because then there's the first part where you have to be like hey why didn't you stand up for me and then there's the second part where you have to be like also i forgive you you were going through a lot and then there's like the third part of it which is like there's still stuff you do today that pisses me the fuck off but i understand why now because

Speaker 2 you know

Speaker 2 you've been conditioned, you know what I mean? In a certain way. And like you have to have just like so much grace and understanding.

Speaker 2 And like at a certain point, you have to just decide you have to decide what's forgivable right and some things are and some things aren't like i don't stand by the thing with people where it's like oh like they're your parents like whatever it is it's not that serious like you know you have to

Speaker 2 you have to just like make sure you keep the relationship like i don't agree with that at all but then at the same time i also don't agree with the idea of like we should punish our parents forever for what they did to us it's like some things you forgive some you don't and that's up to you to decide that's a good point and it takes so much fucking time because like

Speaker 1 the resentment i feel like goes in and out like depending at where you're at in life like you can be like okay we're feeling good now and then like something like triggers you and reminds you of something they did when you were younger and you're like oh my god actually we're not done with this conversation totally there's more shit i just remembered and it's like an endless cycle but i agree like it doesn't it can't just be black and white where you forgive or it's like all perfect like there's gonna be conversations that keep having to happen yeah i think also something interesting that you were talking about was like going to all these different schools.

Speaker 1 Like when we are young, a huge part also of like what forms our personality and our tendencies is like our relationship with our friends and our peers.

Speaker 1 You going to new schools constantly, like how did you approach a new school?

Speaker 2 Um, I was definitely like, this is an opportunity. You know, I was always like, if there's something I want to try out or someone I want to be, like, I can do it here because no one knows me.

Speaker 2 Oh, interesting. You know, like when I was growing up, I was like, Ashley with a Y.
I was like, Ashley with two E's.

Speaker 2 Oh, there was like one school I was at for like a really short period of time where I was like, I'm Ashley, but everyone calls me Sky. It's like, not true.
I made that up. I was just like nine.

Speaker 2 And then like, it was like years later. I was like in a bar in New York and someone came up to me and they were like, Sky.
And I was like, what? And they were like, Skye.

Speaker 2 Like, we went to school together. And I was like, bitch.
I'm stopped. I don't even remember being that person.

Speaker 2 Which is ironic now because if you know anything about me, like as an artist, like you're like, that tracks.

Speaker 2 Like you're constantly, you constantly look and seem and act like different, you know, but that's kind of like fun and tough as a kid.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You're constantly not having to have this like stable foundation around you of like I went to the same fucking school from like kindergarten to eighth grade.

Speaker 1 So like we all knew each other's parents and we all knew each other's shit, which has its pros and cons, but like constantly moving, I feel like you can, yes, reinvent yourself,

Speaker 1 but you also, I feel like, aren't really seen then.

Speaker 2 No, definitely not. Yeah, you're just, there's like fragments of you out in the world, just like these little whispers of a person who's like barely even formed.

Speaker 2 Like my manager, Anthony, has a tattoo on his arm and it's a tattoo of his childhood home. And he was like, yeah, it's like a drawing of my childhood home.

Speaker 2 And I was like, bitch, I don't, if you asked me what my childhood home was, I can't think of one because like I had so many. Like I can't, I can't picture like a childhood home.

Speaker 2 I lived in like eight houses, like apartments. Like, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 You couldn't even like draw something.

Speaker 2 I mean, I would have to, if I had to pick one that was like my childhood home, like maybe the house I lived in when I was in high school, but that's not really childhood.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean? It was like, I lived in so many different apartments. I lived in like Florim Park.
I lived in Linden. I lived in Clark.
I lived in

Speaker 2 like Sussex. I lived in, I just lived in so many different places and all these like little apartments.
And they're all just kind of this like, this like amorphous goo of like.

Speaker 2 a bedroom and I'm like in there with my little brother and then there's like the kitchen and then like, you know, like the apartment complexes, they all like blend into like one, like when I picture it, kind of.

Speaker 1 I'm interested to get your take on this. Like, what do you think is the difference between like hyper independence versus loneliness?

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 I think it's whether it's forced or it's a choice, you know what I mean? Yeah, I think that's kind of the difference.

Speaker 2 I think, like, if you're choosing to be hyper independent because it's like it's better for you and like you function, you know, better in that way.

Speaker 2 Versus if you're forced into hyper independence because you're not trusting, or you have like an attachment issue, or like, you know, you're, um,

Speaker 2 you put a lot of self, like a lot of pressure on yourself to succeed or to accomplish. That's kind of that, like, loneliness, like that solitude.
Like,

Speaker 1 would you say you were lonely as a kid?

Speaker 2 Oh my god, yeah, I was so lonely. I was, I'm still lonely.
I'm like, you know, loneliness is like

Speaker 2 when it it affects you on,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 I feel like there's like clinical loneliness, you know, it's like, there's like, there's being sad because something happened.

Speaker 2 And then there's like, obviously like depression, which is like, you know, it's clinical.

Speaker 2 I feel like there's a version of that with loneliness, you know, where it's like you're lonely because people aren't around and you have no one to hang out with or you're lonely because you're going through something singular.

Speaker 2 Then there's like deep, like carnal loneliness and I think that I've definitely felt that way for like a lot of my life

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 it's hard to fix

Speaker 2 you know it's like it's hard it's hard it's hard to to

Speaker 2 get around that especially if you become comfortable in it you know well and I feel like what you're sharing too about your life which I appreciate you sharing all of this just to pause for a second I feel like I'm being so dark no you're not fun podcast.

Speaker 2 I was lonely as a kid.

Speaker 1 Let me just say, like, this is the shit that I think, like,

Speaker 1 when we now, like, listen to your music, it even adds like more context. And, like,

Speaker 1 in my opinion, like, I feel not in a creepy way, but like, I feel closer to you now because I'm like, oh, fuck. Like, so many people are like, preach, yes, same, same, fuck, same.

Speaker 1 Like, you talking about your childhood.

Speaker 1 I think that when people are listening to your music, it's, it is kind of helpful to know, like, no wonder you are lonely because, like, you came from this household environment that you had to become lonely because you constantly were just like surviving alone.

Speaker 1 And like, I think that happens a lot of times when there are volatile or abusive situations at home.

Speaker 1 Like, if there's multiple people getting abused, you can't even connect in the moment over it because you're just surviving.

Speaker 1 And then you talking with your mom later on down the line, like, of course, you wish you guys could have bonded over it or talked about it when you were that young but you couldn't because you didn't have the tools either of you to be like yeah this is happening sometimes a lot of times it takes getting out to be able to talk about shit and it's generational you know what I mean like I always say it's like our like a lot of for a lot of us our parents were in the generation of survival we're the first with the luxury of existential thought you know what I mean like they didn't have the luxury to like be um

Speaker 2 like putting putting thought into, you know, their existence or like the roles and dynamics at play or like, you know, the reasons why they're doing something. Like it was mostly just like surviving.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, I'm really interested to talk about this high school glow up that you had because I could

Speaker 1 not relate more to something. I know that you've mentioned in the past you were kind of like insecure and unnoticed.
And then going into sophomore year of high school, you had this glow up.

Speaker 1 Can you talk to me about that time of your life?

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Can you talk to me about that time of your life?

Speaker 2 I was like really underdeveloped. Okay.
You know what I mean? I was like really skinny. I like didn't hit puberty until like a lot later.
And I was like super nerdy.

Speaker 2 I had the glasses and like, you know,

Speaker 2 I was like, yeah, I was just like a geek. And then.

Speaker 2 you know, I hit puberty and like I came back and all of a sudden I had like huge tits and like, you know, I got contacts and like, I, um,

Speaker 2 I also kind of like, that was where I sort of entered my like, I kind of entered my villain era like when I was like 15 where I was like tired of being nerdy and geeky and I was like fuck you guys like I actually have really cool interests and I hang out with adults like which is not good that's like a whole other separate bad thing but like

Speaker 2 yeah but I felt very like you know I felt very like emboldened by that and was just like at school like I don't know like my coping mechanism of like not getting along with the kids I went to school with or not like really fitting in and having a friend group was by telling myself it didn't matter because i had like cooler more interesting friends and people i knew most of whom were just like online like didn't really hang out with them in real life and i was like you know we're talking about like you know intellectual things and like whatever else but yeah i definitely um

Speaker 2 i feel like everything really changed really fast for me and i went from someone who was like look who looked like a nerdy 10 year old when I was 15 to like someone who was getting like tons of unwanted like sexual attention.

Speaker 2 And I was like, what the fuck?

Speaker 1 How did having like,

Speaker 1 cause I experienced a similar thing of like overnight going through

Speaker 1 me and being like, no, no, no, no, no. Like the same guy that's like bullying the fucking shit out of me is now like wanting to like take me on a date.
Totally.

Speaker 2 Hold on.

Speaker 1 Pause, you fucking piece of shit. Like nothing changed except my looks.
And yet now you're into me. Like, Like, how did that impact the way that you like felt about yourself?

Speaker 2 Um, I think it did in like a lot of different ways. The first was I had to like differentiate, you know,

Speaker 2 between

Speaker 2 what attention was like kindness and what wasn't. Because my first instinct is I was like, oh, people are being really nice to me now.
And I just missed the agenda completely.

Speaker 2 And like, that was really hard to navigate because I didn't have a lot of experience with that. And

Speaker 2 it took me a long time to learn like if someone is like giving you that kind of attention, you're not obligated to return it.

Speaker 2 I was really afraid of like making people mad or making people not like me.

Speaker 2 And, like, you know, on like the simplest level, it's like a guy will be like an asshole to you if you are kind of if you reject him. Yes.
And then on the worst version of it, there's violence.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean? So it was kind of like, it's, I had to learn how to navigate, like, I am not obligated to concede or to give in to the sexual pursuit of me

Speaker 2 just because it's happening.

Speaker 1 But it's hard because when you go from not experiencing any of it that like a lot of your peers are experiencing, and then all of a sudden all this validation comes.

Speaker 1 Like I remember when that happened to me, I felt at first so excited, like kind of like you're talking about, there's that like excitement of validation.

Speaker 1 But underneath it, I think when I was alone, I had some like anger because I was like, totally, what? Like, is it, it's so surface level.

Speaker 1 Like, I've been the same person the whole time, but you guys like didn't give me any fucking attention until I had tits and an ass.

Speaker 2 And like, that's when you have to start doing the would you have been nice to me before? And if the answer is no, then bye. Bye.
It's really confusing.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Um,

Speaker 1 you said once that you thought your sexiness was a superpower, kind of like we're talking about, and made it so no one could hurt you. And you would enter these rooms just like

Speaker 1 feeling that confidence.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I definitely wielded sexual power as like a you know

Speaker 2 I don't know like as a as a tool of acquisition you know like I definitely used it in certain circumstances because it was kind of all that I had can you give me an example well like you know if you're in a room full of people especially men you know and in this business as I was starting my business and I was learning how to navigate the industry is not just like I write songs and like oh I have to build a business you know um you're in a room full of people who are more experienced than you they're older than you they're richer than you they're very often men white men you know, and at the time I was, I started out by trying to be like, look how smart I am and look how much I know.

Speaker 2 And it was kind of like, okay. And I was like, well, that's not working.

Speaker 2 Okay. And then at a certain time, I think in the beginning, I kind of figured out like,

Speaker 2 I can make all of these like really smart men dumb instantly if I'm just hot. You know, like it's so crazy how fast they become stupid.

Speaker 2 Like there's so they have so much power over you in the moment where you're like, oh, the experience, the money, the power, the whatever.

Speaker 2 And then you have this one little magic trick in your pocket where you can just be like, really?

Speaker 2 And all of a sudden, that guy is like, uh,

Speaker 2 and you're like, oh, God, that was so easy. It's like, why wouldn't you use it if you have it then?

Speaker 1 And I think so many people can relate to this. Like,

Speaker 1 I do think, yes, like, women can relate to using that

Speaker 1 part of us that is so sexualized. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And leaning into it, you can feel this like great, great energy from it.

Speaker 2 And it's like until it becomes, feels gross, though, until it gets gross.

Speaker 1 And it feels gross pretty fast, I feel like.

Speaker 1 And I think like a lot of conversation I always see online, like I know Emily Radikowski has like talked a lot about it of like, there's this weird fucking thing where you know you can use it to an advantage, but then you also have to like have some

Speaker 1 ability to like navigate navigate for yourself what you're comfortable with and what you're not comfortable with. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like when do you think if you have like a memory that you were like, oh, I'm I'm taking it too far. This actually is like, I'm not feeling chill about this.

Speaker 2 I mean, there's been like a couple times. There was definitely like some times where like I was, you know, I was like out with like some collaborators and it was like late and like

Speaker 2 Someone was just like

Speaker 2 we were kind of like playfully flirting in a way that was like seemed really harmless. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then they got like really drunk and they just started kind of like touching me like in public and I was like, whoa.

Speaker 2 But at the time, you know, you're just like, I was younger then, but it was like, you don't want to cause a scene. You don't want to like, you know, there's other people there.

Speaker 2 You don't want them, them to see you freak out. And then they don't want to work with you because they think you're a drama queen and like whatever else.

Speaker 2 And, and, you know, and these are all, like I said, younger

Speaker 2 minded belief systems of mine that have obviously since changed now that I'm older. But like, it was those kind of things where I was like, this is not worth it.
You know, it's becoming unsafe.

Speaker 2 And I, uh, I don't want, you know,

Speaker 2 I don't want this to seem like I'm signing a, uh,

Speaker 2 I'm signing some sort of invisible contract where I'm promising something to someone. Yeah.
You know?

Speaker 1 And I think the concept of like being a young person in a situation where there's a power dynamic, like you're just, it's such such this like hard thing to explain until you're in those situations where you referenced it earlier of like, I didn't want to make this person upset and I didn't want it to escalate where it could literally get to the point where it goes like violent.

Speaker 1 So you kind of just like appease the situation.

Speaker 1 And I think that is where it can get really scary and it, and you keep just like, we just can appease people and like make it be like, oh, no, no, everything's fine. Everything's fine.

Speaker 1 And it's like, but then you go home and you feel like gross and shitty.

Speaker 2 I'm not with you. I had like a really strange situation a couple couple years ago.

Speaker 2 I mean, I guess it was quite a, it was quite a long time ago.

Speaker 2 But I was out and I was with this executive, like this really powerful executive who works in music in some capacity. And I'd been going out and like

Speaker 2 hanging out with him and like some other people at the company and like, you know, we were working together and like everything was like really fine. Like it was very just like

Speaker 2 celebratory and like there's a lot of like industry talk. I didn't feel weird about it at all.

Speaker 2 And I like had like my two managers with me who are kind of like older guys, and like, I never felt like unsafe or anything. We were out one night, and like

Speaker 2 he was like, oh, like, I want to send a photo to like my niece of us together or something like that. And I was like, okay.

Speaker 2 And I like took out my phone. I took like a selfie of the two of us and I handed him my phone and I was like, text it to yourself.
I have to pee.

Speaker 2 And then I went to the bathroom. And when I came back, he like handed me my phone like this.
And I saw he was like going through my nudes on my phone. What is wrong with people?

Speaker 2 And I like sat down and I was like,

Speaker 2 I actually didn't even know what to do. I was just like frozen.
I was like, did I just imagine that? Was that an accident? Like,

Speaker 2 did the phone like scroll out? Like, what? What the heck just happened? And then I was like, did he text them to himself and then delete the messages? Like, I don't even know where these are now.

Speaker 2 Like, I was just like,

Speaker 2 I was like frozen. And I was like, that's so crazy that, like, I'm in this situation where like I have so much power.

Speaker 1 I have a bodyguard.

Speaker 2 Like, I have a

Speaker 2 secure, a bodyguard, and I have, you know,

Speaker 2 all the leverage in the world. And I'm in this exclusive space in this, like, VIP.
Like, you know, I've reached the ranks of like, oh, I am

Speaker 2 protected, or like, whatever else it may be. And then this invasive thing just happens like on a whim.
And I was like,

Speaker 2 oh my god I was it made me feel

Speaker 2 I felt like

Speaker 2 it regressed me so much like it made me feel I went from being like yeah I'm like fucking hot shit and I'm one of the big players and like and I sat down and when that happened in that moment I was like you're nothing you're nothing you'll always be nothing you're still just like that fucking girl who's like getting, you know, taken advantage of or like men are talking about you behind your back or you're some sort of like collateral.

Speaker 2 I was like, you're nothing. It was so demoralizing.

Speaker 1 It's so,

Speaker 2 and so many worse things have happened to me than that, but that one stuck out for some reason because it was so nonchalant.

Speaker 1 Right. No, that, like, that's what I think.
It's so, I appreciate you sharing the details, even of like, you're where you at, you're in your career, you have a fucking bodyguard.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think, and, and you technically, like, we revert to that, like,

Speaker 1 little child of like

Speaker 1 men ruling the world and us just having to appease them, like we were just talking about. And you in that moment, like, no, of course.
And people be like, Why didn't you just say something?

Speaker 1 It's like, you don't get it until you're fucking in those moments where it's like,

Speaker 1 there is kind of nothing to say, but even if you said something, then you're the crazy bitch that it's like, oh, and then someone calls you a slut. Cause then, what do you mean?

Speaker 1 What are you talking about?

Speaker 2 You're nudes.

Speaker 1 You take nude, like, they can turn it so fucking fast on you.

Speaker 2 Also, it's like, are you a, are you like a bad bitch businesswoman?

Speaker 2 That's the other thing is it's like at what point you know where is the line between like i am a powerful woman so i have to stand up to myself and the line between that and i'm a powerful woman so i have to not let certain things bother me so that i can outplay these men in the long game there's so much to think about in that moment you know what i mean it's like am i gonna let this bother me this like pathetic squirmy little worm action of this man when like I could just let it go and then I'll get the last laugh because I'm building my business and I'm looking out for my life life and whatever.

Speaker 2 Or like, do I have a responsibility as a woman in a position of power to stand up for myself in that moment? I don't know which is what is expected of me.

Speaker 1 I don't think anyone in your position or

Speaker 1 anyone really in those moments knows what to do, even like the highest of powered people.

Speaker 1 Like, and I think that's why this is a really interesting conversation because it's like, you, you're so fucking right.

Speaker 1 Had you said something and made a scene, then you're just like, oh, she's like the crazy bitch. Like no one work with with her anymore.

Speaker 1 She like makes stuff up and she like uses her like sexual being parts of herself as like a way to like get people in trouble. We don't touch her anymore.

Speaker 2 Like, no, she's like a black widow, she'll flirt with you, and then she'll like screw you over later. I'm like, Whoa, okay.

Speaker 1 And men don't have that experience where they're never being like overly sexualized in those moments. They're like, Can't relate, gotta go.
Ew, she's crazy, bitch.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, get off of me, whatever, totally.

Speaker 1 It's not only is it the best interview because you're fabulous, it's also like I have been wanting to to have these type of conversations with someone that gets it and can talk about it, but also is not like above it where you're like, you are in it and you've experienced it.

Speaker 1 And I think so many young people are going to be like, yeah, fuck, thank you for just talking about something that we don't have the answer to any of this.

Speaker 2 No, also, that's the thing. People look to us and they're like, so what do you do in those situations? Because they're like, oh, thank you for sharing.
So what's the solution?

Speaker 2 And you're like, I don't know. I'm still figuring that out.
I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, I'm still figuring out so many things.
Like,

Speaker 2 I, even now, like, you know, I like, where are the lines, you know? Like, sometimes it's just like

Speaker 2 if someone's being like a little overly friendly, it's hard sometimes to be like, okay, is it like because they're excited to talk to me?

Speaker 2 Or is it because they're like, they don't understand social cues? Or like, you know, what is it? Or like, is this worth being like, yo,

Speaker 1 chill? Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, and I think I had a situation that happened to me this past year and I feel like odd because my show you would expect me to immediately like run and sit in front of the camera and talk about it for all of the young people listening to me.

Speaker 1 I'm still trying to figure out like how to talk about that situation because it is a work situation and I'm like, I may see this person again and it's a situation where it's like, wow, like

Speaker 1 I don't think anyone would expect me to not say something and I didn't say something in that moment and I was so uncomfortable. And it's like, I think the point is

Speaker 1 two people in seemingly positions of power are sitting here acknowledging today to young people that experience this.

Speaker 1 Like, there is no answer, but I do think through a show like this and through your music, like by us just talking about it, writing about it, singing about it, it just starts to like normalize more of the conversation so people don't feel so ashamed to talk to even a fucking friend.

Speaker 2 You don't have to report something immediately, like it doesn't have to go to the highest level, just like acknowledging it, I feel like is the first step to making some progress absolutely it's an ongoing conversation also people don't like it when rules change that's like the other thing is like people also don't like it when you have like nuanced rules you know like for example like I'm topless on my album cover for my fourth record and it's like my nipple was in target like it's everywhere but like people sometimes will just like walk into my dressing room and I'll be like, yo, the door.

Speaker 2 And it's like the expectation is like, what are you showing everyone your tits? And I'm like, okay, well, I'm revoking that right in this moment.

Speaker 2 Like, I'm allowed to decide, I don't want you to see me naked right now just because you've seen me naked before. Like, I'm allowed to change my mind.

Speaker 2 Or, like, someone's like, oh, like, you know, I saw you in this one interview with like this person and you were like so touchy-feely and like so comfortable.

Speaker 2 It's like, why are you being so standoffish to me? And I'm like, I have a, like, you don't know my relationship with that person separate of that interview. Or like, you don't know this.

Speaker 2 Or like, you know, I'm, I

Speaker 2 reserve the right to change what I'm comfortable with, but people don't like that because then they go, oh, she's so wishy-washy. They're always changing their mind.
Like, pick one. Like, what is it?

Speaker 2 And it's like, I'm allowed to change my mind.

Speaker 1 Not only are you allowed to change your mind, like there are different boundaries per situations you're in in life of like, you may have been having a really rough morning.

Speaker 1 And so like, yeah, I'm not in the mood for this. And like, no matter what the fuck you're in the mood for, that's okay.

Speaker 1 And people that make you feel uncomfortable or like you're being unreasonable, that is a red fucking flag.

Speaker 1 Like if something's, if someone is constantly coming at you and making you feel like you're over dramatic or you're being high maintenance and you're

Speaker 1 pause.

Speaker 2 Or like you took away the blanket consent that I thought you gave to all of us. And like I wanted that too.

Speaker 2 And like the reason they're reacting that way is because what they believe you've given them is,

Speaker 2 you know, with this like hypothetical blanket consent is like they see an opportunity that they want to leverage that for their own personal gain or their own whatever.

Speaker 2 And when you take it away, they're offended. It's like you've taken something from me and it's access to you.

Speaker 1 They feel like ownership over you in a way. Like that example of your nipple being in Target.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You made a decision the day of your photo shoot to do something creative and artistic that you were comfortable with that day.

Speaker 1 That does not mean that everyone in the fucking world, when you're walking on the street, can be like, I'm just going to pull out my

Speaker 1 nipple free for everyone to see. Like it's wild that they like people feel entitled.
The entitlement to our bodies and moments, if you it's crazy. Yeah, I want to talk about romantic relationships.

Speaker 1 Okay, because we kind of started about your childhood, and I feel like again, what we've been kind of talking about is like they're all fucking connected.

Speaker 1 Did you tend to fall in love easily when you were younger?

Speaker 2 Not when I was younger, actually.

Speaker 2 When I was younger, like when I was a young adult, definitely. When I was a teenager, not so much.

Speaker 2 I wasn't like super trusting, you know what I mean? Um,

Speaker 2 when I was, I think honestly, once I became famous, I think I fell in love faster because I was so desperate for like stability and like partnership and like I just wanted to be seen and I wanted like a constant.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so you know,

Speaker 2 I think that I, a lot of the time, would

Speaker 2 sort of project that onto people. Yeah, like you've ignored a lot of red flags, like that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 And like, not even like some of them super like insidious red flags, but some of them just like more harmless ones of, like, we're just not really compatible in that way. Yeah.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 You have talked about a relationship you had when you were 17. The guy was 24.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And he was a pretty big drug addict and was into drugs. Yeah.
What drew you to that person initially?

Speaker 2 I'm a fixer.

Speaker 2 I am a fixer. I'm like, I can fix you.
I can fix you. Like, you know, I am,

Speaker 2 it's funny. I felt like becoming a mom was so

Speaker 2 natural to me.

Speaker 2 I struggle with it in the same way that every mom does, but at the end of the day, I think I had so much blanket patience because of how much time I spent trying to like fix and mother people up until that point where like my

Speaker 2 like patience for someone not growing the way you want them to or as fast as you want them to or like whatever was like already so established.

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh, but you're like, I've been a mother way before my child.

Speaker 2 Yeah, seriously.

Speaker 1 I've been mothering these men for a long time, Alex. No, that makes sense.

Speaker 1 And I think it's, again, like interesting to hear you talk about a dynamic that can be like someone struggling so much with an addiction.

Speaker 1 Like I had a relationship with someone that struggled a lot with addiction and I was very young and he was older than me. And I remember the

Speaker 1 power and balance was like so ever present and I would feel so

Speaker 1 insecure and I I would want to, like, I think when you're the person that's not in the position of power, you find yourself like doing things to try to like even the playing field.

Speaker 1 And really, it's like kind of you appeasing them and doing what they want you to do, so you feel closer to them.

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 Did you experience that with this relationship?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I did it a lot of addicts.

Speaker 2 Like, that was a kind of a recurring theme for me until I was just like, okay, no, you know, and like, I think that, you know, part of the part of the problem, I think, when you're romantically involved with someone who is in active addiction is that there's no logic, right?

Speaker 2 So you try to reason with them and you try to go like, okay, well, can't you see that if you do this, then it hurts me and then I feel this way? Or like,

Speaker 2 you did that. I watched you do it.
And it's like they live in a completely different reality that they've constructed to.

Speaker 2 you know, as a, as a survival mechanism to not think about the fact that they're in active addiction. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 So it's like you're arguing with someone or you're reasoning with someone based on reality and like that's not their reality. So there, there's no,

Speaker 2 you can't, you can't like reason with someone who's not living in a world of reason.

Speaker 2 And then it turns into like this cognitive dissonance, like thought spiral where you start to feel like you're crazy.

Speaker 1 You start to go insane because there's no growth. It feels like growth when they're in a loop.
Right. They're not on drugs.
So then you're getting closer and you feel like, oh, we're so back.

Speaker 1 And then it happens again. And then you're like, wait, no.
But then the progress that feels like progress, it's just, you're just getting a little bit back to like normal.

Speaker 1 It's like, it's a really, really difficult spiral that I like empathize with anyone going through it right now that's listening of like, you're not crazy.

Speaker 1 And I do agree that a lot of people in those positions want to fix things.

Speaker 1 You can't fix someone that's going through that. And I think a lot of times we feel like we can.
Yeah. You can't.

Speaker 1 And I know it's easier said than done, but like once you get out of those moments, you obviously have clarity.

Speaker 1 But when you're in it, like I just have empathy for like friends going through it or people listening, like it's fucking hard. And again, there is no solution that we're providing today.

Speaker 1 I think it's just like talking about the real shit that you go through.

Speaker 2 I needed someone to tell me at that time, like, you're not a bad person if you leave someone who's like

Speaker 2 hurting you. You know what I mean? Because like I was always kind of like making excuses for those things and being like, oh,

Speaker 2 but what kind of person am I if I leave someone who's like in this grate of need?

Speaker 2 And I really needed someone to be like, baby, that is not your responsibility. You know what I mean? Especially because I was just so young.

Speaker 2 And also, I had to unlearn this thing that I was going through at that time where I was like, I've spent so long in just like misery wanting to fix this person.

Speaker 2 What if they get better one day and then someone else gets to have the better version of them that I worked so hard to build?

Speaker 2 And you're, and it's like, that is what kept me in it, was being like, well, no, one day, like, they're going to get better and then someone else is going to get to have the version of them that I always dreamed would existed.

Speaker 2 And all I got was just like the suffering. And then, what am I? I'm just like the lesson.
I'm the martyr. I'm the catalyst.

Speaker 2 I, I exist in their life just so that they could go be better for someone else. Like, and I was like determined to not have that because it also it felt like losing.

Speaker 2 I had to also deconstruct that too, that thing of like winning and losing. I It was like, no, baby, this is your life.
This isn't about winning or losing, you know?

Speaker 2 I don't know. Sorry.
It was no sense.

Speaker 1 I'm more just like speechless because I don't think I've ever heard someone like articulate it so perfectly that I can imagine everyone listening right now is like.

Speaker 1 maybe like pulling over to the side of the road.

Speaker 1 Just like have a have a pause because it's so fucking real of like most of those relationships, you go to the very possible end to the point that like you even are at risk of your own life when you go that fucking far down with someone so to leave feels like but what was this all for yeah and it's like it's just gonna keep going yeah it feels like giving up but it's not it's like making you're making like a

Speaker 2 it's like it is a hard choice I think that I started learning like in a way you really do become someone when you're spending that amount of time with them and you're like connecting with them on an energetic level that much where now like if I look at my partner and I wouldn't want to be them

Speaker 2 if I wouldn't want to be just like them, then, like, I probably shouldn't be with them.

Speaker 2 Like, you should kind of really only be spending that amount of time and putting that much love and connection and vulnerability into a person if, like,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 1 if you would be okay

Speaker 2 becoming them as a result, yeah, you know,

Speaker 1 you're preaching right now. I'm like, keep going, you're giving us a TED talk.

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Speaker 1 In one of your poems, you wrote, I won't love a man unless he is angry because of my father. Yeah.

Speaker 1 How did normalizing anger

Speaker 1 in these relationships that you were having make you you more willing to put up with the things that they were doing?

Speaker 2 Hmm, I think that I

Speaker 2 well, first of all, I had to change the way that I talked to myself. You know what I mean? Like, I had a therapist once who was like, um,

Speaker 2 was like, I was, I was talking to them about a partner, and I was like, they just like

Speaker 2 constantly tell me or make me feel like I'm not special or like, you know, I'm

Speaker 2 like,

Speaker 2 I'm embarrassing, or like, I'm weak, or I'm like, I don't know, just like all these things. And the person was like, okay, well, can I ask you a question? Like,

Speaker 2 do you think you're special? And I was like, no.

Speaker 2 Was like, I'm no. I don't know.
Like, what? Like, I'm better than everybody else? No, I don't think that. She was, it's not gonna ask you, ask you, do you think you're special? And I was like, no.

Speaker 2 She was like, and what do you tell yourself? Like, in those situations, like, how do you talk to yourself?

Speaker 2 And I was like, well, I just try to remind myself, like, you know, like, you have to be humble and like you're not better than everybody else and like you're not special.

Speaker 2 And like, you know, and she was like, okay. She was like, so if that's how you talk to yourself, then when someone else talks to you the same way,

Speaker 2 you're not going to notice that that's out of the norm. You know what I mean? Like that's,

Speaker 2 if you're, if you're, if you're communicating with yourself in that way, like if you believe those things,

Speaker 2 you know, I was like, yeah, but it's one thing for me to humble myself, but I want my partner to build me up. And they were like, no, you have to build yourself up.

Speaker 2 That's not, you can't depend on another person to do that, which was a really interesting conversation because I feel like sometimes we go into therapy so often when we're struggling with relationships, and we're like, What's wrong with all these people?

Speaker 2 And then there comes a part where you have to take responsibility.

Speaker 2 You know, like one of the things I started I had to take responsibility for to end up in a healthy relationship was sort of this like toxic empathy and like this, um,

Speaker 2 this sort of like toxic, um,

Speaker 2 uh,

Speaker 2 not like people pleasing, but

Speaker 2 I was like,

Speaker 2 I was realizing that if I don't set clear boundaries for myself and people repeatedly cross those boundaries, it's my fault because I'm not giving them, I'm not communicating with them or giving them a chance to learn that that's a boundary.

Speaker 2 And then also, it's building up, building up, building up, building up, and then I'm blowing up out of resentment. But they're confused because I never told them that that boundary was being crossed.

Speaker 2 And so, you know, that was a moment of where I was like, oh, God, like, I have, I have to also take a responsibility, you know, or like, cause I went through a phase, I think, where I was really like, I don't even, like, I don't even ask my partner for anything.

Speaker 2 Like, I take care of all my own stuff. I don't bring myself into the relationship.
Like, I'm not asking them to, like, support me or emotionally, whatever.

Speaker 2 Like, I literally just like, I take care of all my own shit and I take care of them. And like, still, they can't even like be there for me in the 5% I'm actually asking them to.

Speaker 2 And she was like, well, you're not showing up honestly. She was like, you're not being yourself.
She was like, You think that they're being like dishonest or they're being disingenuous?

Speaker 2 Like, bitch, so are you. And just because you think it's in a nice way doesn't mean that it's okay.

Speaker 2 Like, you're not like this, like, self-sacrificing act or whatever is actually you showing up and lying to them.

Speaker 2 And that shook me because when she first said it, I was like, Well, no, I'm, I didn't do anything wrong. I was like, Why are you telling me I did something wrong?

Speaker 2 And then I had to look at that and I had to be like, Damn. Okay, you're right.
You're right.

Speaker 1 If I'm showing up dishonestly, even if it's well-intending, I'm just as bad as it them yeah you have a great therapist like who is this therapist we all need this person no it's so true like not communicating something to your partner that you're like something is like festering inside of you and you're watching it all the time being so upset and they have no idea you're upset about it it's like how would they know you're upset if you don't tell them you're upset in one of your new songs, Panic Attack, I was listening to it and I was like, this is the most relatable thing I've ever fucking heard.

Speaker 1 And And so many people, when they hear the song are going to be like, yes, thank you, Waltzy. I am, I have, I have too been there.

Speaker 1 You talk about struggling essentially to differentiate. Like, am I having this, like, these panic attack feelings or am I falling in love? And like, what is the fucking difference?

Speaker 1 Can you talk about from your experience, like.

Speaker 1 how those two are kind of similar in the beginning phase of a relationship.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think like, you know, if you are like anxiously attached, like you kind of get those feelings of like like nervousness like and it's really easy to misinterpret those I said this a long time ago I have like a song from like a couple years ago from an album manic a song called graveyard where like in the bridge I say it's funny how the warning signs can feel like butterflies you know and so like I've kind of touched on this before panic attack is like a more expanded version of it which is like you know there is that moment kind of of like you know your heart's freaking beating out of its chest when their name pops up on your phone.

Speaker 2 What's that about? Is it because you're now entering this like dopamine cycle of like, you know, you actually aren't sure?

Speaker 2 Like if you're not sure they're going to answer you and then it excites you and they do, I don't think that's love. I don't think so.

Speaker 2 Like you shouldn't be putting that level of energy into a person if you're not sure that they're going to have the decency to respond to your message.

Speaker 1 It's so confusing and I love that you brought up graveyard because I was like gonna reference that and I'm like, no, but we have like a new and improved version.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Panic attacks over years.

Speaker 1 They are. And I feel like those butterfly warning signs are so easily misconstrued in the beginning phase.

Speaker 1 And I empathize a lot because it's hard until you start to just have your life experiences and go through multiple relationships.

Speaker 1 And it's that again, us not giving you guys the answer, but knowing like the more you experience, the easier it is to kind of be like, oh, no, no, no, I've felt that way before and I know how this goes down.

Speaker 1 Like I need to pump the brakes. But the beginning of relationships can be very hard to discern.

Speaker 1 yeah is this excitement or is this because this person is essentially like love bombing me or whatever the fuck is going on or is it like slightly mentally abusive but i'm seeing it as like he finally is giving me attention oh my god and there's a validation

Speaker 2 also toxic like toxicity in relationships is addictive it is it's absolutely addictive it's just like a cycle of like norepinephrine like that's like an adrenaline chemical you know what i mean and like dopamine and like you start to build patterns and like neural pathways to the ups and downs of feeling that like rejection, validation, rejection, validation, rejection, validation.

Speaker 2 And I remember when I kind of like

Speaker 2 when I had had like some distance from like my most toxic relationship and I was in relationships that were like a little bit more content, I do remember at times being kind of like

Speaker 2 And I don't want to say this as any kind of like diss to the people who might hear hear themselves in this conversation because you know, this, this isn't, this isn't a diss, but I did find myself kind of bored and like not bored with them, but bored with the lack of intensity and the lack of the up and down, and kind of just like

Speaker 2 wondering if

Speaker 2 because I had experienced such highs and lows in a toxic relationship, if every other form of love was gonna feel

Speaker 2 like less than satisfactory to me.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 real. Yeah.
Like, that's so fucking real.

Speaker 2 It's not true because I'm very much in love now and I'm getting all that. Yeah.
I mean, all the

Speaker 2 ring girl.

Speaker 2 I will say to anyone listening, that's not true. But I do think there's a period of time where like safety comes where you just kind of feel like

Speaker 2 it just doesn't hit the same. Right.
And like, you can't go back.

Speaker 2 I definitely was like, oh, I wonder if I'm just going to be like, what is is it for me is it contentment is it settling is it settling for safety do i get to have that same intensity without all of the

Speaker 1 danger you know and i feel like something i had to learn along the way and it's everyone has to like take their time with it is like you're right the toxicity is addicting but there's such a difference between like safe and boring are just not the same thing.

Speaker 1 And it can take you a really long time, but understandably, if you're on this fucking roller coaster ride and then you're slowly just like sitting in the little, the like the game that you're just like riding around and it's slow, you're like, this isn't fucking fun.

Speaker 1 I want to be screaming my head off and I want to have my hair all over the place.

Speaker 2 It's like, what if we told you that like 10 people died on that ride like last week? And you're like, well, it was fun though. Like, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 We keep going back. And it's like, why do we do this to ourselves? Because I was going to ask you about like, you have written about these like volatile relationships that you've been in.

Speaker 1 And like when you do get out of them, I guess you just answered it of like, what do you learn about yourself then when you get into new relationships that aren't as volatile?

Speaker 1 And it's like, I guess your answer was like kind of learning to be okay with peace a little bit maybe.

Speaker 2 Yes and no. Okay.
Because then what happened was, is I was like, okay, I guess this is it. I guess I'm just settling for contentment.
And then I realized that that wasn't true either.

Speaker 2 That was me putting safety. before my happiness.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Because I was going to say, like, if you have any advice to maybe someone that's watching this right now, that is like fully in that cycle of whether it's with an abusive partner or a toxic partner and they just can't get out of it and they're like but i'll never find something that makes me feel you will you will you have to heal first when you get out it's not going to feel that way right away because you need to heal and then like that new healed version of you is going to like you know i don't know it's kind of like when you get a wound and then you know the wound hurts and it hurts and it hurts but at least you're feeling something and then it scars and the scar is numb and you're like i don't have no feeling here But then eventually, new skin grows, and you get to feel again, but it's not, it doesn't hurt.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 No, it's so, it's so hard to tell people when they're in it.

Speaker 2 We're like, I'm promising

Speaker 1 if you leave and you get out of it and you heal, it's going to get better. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I want to ask you, like, as an artist, because I feel like a lot of people have these moments where they collaborate with someone they were in a relationship with, and you've done that in the past.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And you have this, like, very famous song with someone that you have, like, talked about like not having a good relationship with can you describe the feeling of like having a piece of art tied to a very like hurtful and not

Speaker 2 like positive experience I think the one thing I've been really smart about is they're never my songs I'm always on their songs. So then like that's your problem, not mine.

Speaker 2 I get to do my whole catalog and I don't have to deal with you. So like sorry that some of your biggest songs have me on them.
I don't know what to tell you.

Speaker 2 But I tend to be sort of the gatekeep about my art for that same reason where I'm like, yeah, I'll get on your thing, but like, not mine, you know, like this needs to, this, I need to preserve this for, for myself.

Speaker 2 You know, I think whether I'm on a record with someone and our, and like, you know, the relationship changes or not, or I just wrote a song about them, like, songs just carry so much

Speaker 2 cellular energy, but the good thing about them is that they do evolve. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Like, I've gotten on stage and sang the same song, like, over, like, Like, I've been singing Without Me for fucking years, you know? And every time I sing it, it feels different.

Speaker 2 It feels like it's about a different thing. And like, you know, I have so many songs that are about so many different times in my life or like experiences.
And like, I don't know. I think that,

Speaker 2 I think that

Speaker 2 I'll never shy away from being.

Speaker 2 honest, you know, it's like, and if you have to deal with the consequences of that later, then so be it. But like, I would rather regret, I would rather regret

Speaker 2 being

Speaker 2 honest and being reflective of where I was in my life at that time than regret not saying something or doing something that I wish that I had. I don't know.
I just.

Speaker 2 It's a great fucking answer. Yeah, no features on this album, though.
Just me. Nobody else getting in the way of my narrative.
Period.

Speaker 1 There is a ring on your finger. We've gone through childhood.
We've gone through your previous relationships and going through the mud to get to congratulations. You're engaged.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 I am like fucking married. I know.
It's crazy.

Speaker 1 It's insane.

Speaker 2 I have to get all the tea from you.

Speaker 1 No, I have to tell you everything.

Speaker 1 It's insane, and it still feels weird to say, like, I have a husband. Like, what is happening? You're a fiancé.
I know. This is exciting.

Speaker 1 How did the proposal happen? Can you tell me?

Speaker 2 Sweet, sweet.

Speaker 1 Tell me.

Speaker 2 So he proposed in Barcelona.

Speaker 2 It's kind of like where we first started hanging out. So it's like really special to us because we had this like kind of

Speaker 2 these few days where we were like

Speaker 2 we were hanging out a bunch and

Speaker 2 it was very like not, you know, I wasn't sure that I was ready. And so it was kind of like,

Speaker 2 you know, but I was also kind of like, you're literally the like most amazing, like smartest, hottest, nicest person I've ever met in my life. So also like, please don't go anywhere.

Speaker 2 I'm gonna, I'm trying to figure it out. Like, you know what I mean? Stay here.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And,

Speaker 2 you know, so he, yeah, he proposed in Barcelona. It was really sweet.
And

Speaker 2 immediately afterwards left to go shoot a show for like six months in Canada. And I was like, okay, bye.

Speaker 2 Stop.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So we, we haven't really had like the chance to be like engaged.
Right. You know what I mean? Um,

Speaker 2 but he's coming home and, you know, just in time for me to go start like all the album promo or whatever. And,

Speaker 2 you know, I think we're going to get to have like our time then. But I never wanted to be married.
Interesting. Never.

Speaker 1 Never. What changed?

Speaker 2 Avan.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I don't know. I never thought that I would ever want to be married.
And then like.

Speaker 2 I just knew I wanted to marry him. And I couldn't explain why, because I would deconstruct marriage like from such a logical perspective beforehand.

Speaker 2 Like I was so like practical, survival, like, you know,

Speaker 2 uh, like fiscal like about it. Like, you know, the way that I always, I always broke down marriage.

Speaker 2 And like, I couldn't really understand the point of marrying just from like an emotional point of view. It was like, well, if you love each other, then just be together.
Why do you get married? Yes.

Speaker 2 I didn't understand it. And then, I don't know, it was just something with him where I just knew I wanted to marry him.
And like, I can't even explain why. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Because I do, I love him in such a way that I feel like we would be just as fine if we didn't.

Speaker 1 But something about that that makes me want to do it more i relate a lot to what you're saying because i was very vocal like even when i met matt i was like i don't want to get married i never want to get married like i thought it would threaten my independence i was i felt the same way like why do we need a piece of paper and then i just like knew

Speaker 1 He was the person if I was gonna do it And I think that's so beautiful that it was just like something within you is like I know this is right I just knew and that's like how did you guys meet?

Speaker 2 We met kind of just like floating around He was like floating around Europe and so was I. We were both doing like some like fashion week stuff and some like I was playing some festivals and like

Speaker 2 you know we I we'd been like aware of each other like we followed each other on Instagram. You know what I mean? But it was like

Speaker 2 And we neither of us can really remember if we had like met in passing before that. I think I would remember, so I don't think we have.
You know what I mean? But

Speaker 2 I always, I had like, I always had like a weird feeling about him, you know?

Speaker 2 And then, you know, I, I, I got pregnant and I was, you know, with my son's father.

Speaker 2 And then like, I didn't have any feelings about anyone because I was like super committed to like making my family work and like, you know, this new life as like a mom with like my son. And so like,

Speaker 2 um, I wasn't really thinking about any of that kind of stuff. And then I became a single mom and I was like, I am never dating anyone ever again.
And it's going to be, I had so much to figure out.

Speaker 2 I was like, it's just me and my son. And like, you know, and I was also really sick.
I was really sick in like a life-changing way. Yep.
I was like not thinking about dating at all.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And so then we met, we like met up for a drink one night.

Speaker 2 And I just remember walking into this bar, this like hotel bar, and he was just like sitting in this like little beer garden at the hotel. And I walked in and I saw him.

Speaker 2 And the only way I can explain it was, is like,

Speaker 2 You know, in like a vampire movie when the vampire like glamours you? Like they do that thing that makes you like, yes, whatever. Like it felt like that was happening to me.

Speaker 2 Like I walked in all like, I walked in and I was like, hey. And he was like, hi.
And I was like, hi. Hi.

Speaker 1 Okay. See Edward Cullen Du.

Speaker 2 No, he straight up like mind tricked me. Like, and he wasn't doing it on purpose.
He just is very charming. Like, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I was just like, whoa, there was just like this like, this warmth and this like light just like emanating off of him.
It was so compelling. It was so alluring.

Speaker 2 I just like sitting at the table, just wanted to lean over the table, sit closer to him. Like, I was so just like

Speaker 2 drawn to him. Like, I don't know how to explain it.
It was so, it was different than like when you meet someone and you're like, I could see this working.

Speaker 2 And I'm like planning in my head and I'm like doing the calculation of like how this would work out. And like, okay, you're like that and I'm like this and this would be good.

Speaker 2 It was just like, I was like, whoa. I was head empty.

Speaker 2 I was not head full of, I'm going to get him math. I was head empty.
I was just like, hi.

Speaker 2 He's got empty. Yeah.
I don't know. We're all just like swooning in here.
We're like, whoa,

Speaker 1 keep going. No, that is like, that's when you know there's something special.

Speaker 1 What if you had to say, what do you love the most about him?

Speaker 2 Hmm.

Speaker 2 That's hard. I mean, he's so

Speaker 2 like freakishly

Speaker 2 like adjusted isn't the right word, but like there's nothing I could ever bring up that would freak him out. There's like no conversation we can't have like in like a,

Speaker 2 like, he's so solution-oriented. Like,

Speaker 2 everything

Speaker 2 between the two of us is always like,

Speaker 2 it's always with

Speaker 2 the goal of solution and bettering. And, like, you know, we're never like locked into like.

Speaker 2 who's gonna win this or who's gonna whatever also he's just like

Speaker 2 I remember when I first when I first started seeing him i was like what's it gonna be

Speaker 2 i was like you are like

Speaker 2 super successful you've been in this business for like a really long time you're smoking hot and everyone on the planet knows it i was like what's wrong with you

Speaker 2 and he was so nice and he was so family oriented and like I was like, oh, you're about to be the biggest psychopath of them all. You're about to ruin my life.
You're about to be the final boss.

Speaker 2 Like, you can't be like this.

Speaker 2 I was like, there's going to be what like whatever's wrong with you is gonna be like fbi's most wanted like you're gonna be secretly like have bodies in your basement like something you have to have the worst thing ever wrong with you and then it was like i was kind of like unsure for like a while like and then like you know as time went on well first i met his parents and they're fucking lovely and so that's where i was kind of like oh maybe this is real maybe he is just that great because he's great parents like raised him really well yep and then you know he

Speaker 2 he has got he has a relationship with my son now, you know, and just like watching the way that he shows up for my son in like such a authentic way.

Speaker 2 I was like, okay, you really are just like the best person.

Speaker 2 And then came the panic of me being like, well, I don't deserve someone that great.

Speaker 2 And so I had to kind of like, it was short-lived, but I had that little process of like, whoa, oh my God, if he really is that great, then like, what the hell is he doing with me?

Speaker 2 You know, and I, and then I had to kind of like, I had to start seeing myself.

Speaker 2 I had to value myself more, you know what I mean? Where I had to be like, well, I'm also really ambitious and I'm a really good mom.

Speaker 2 And like, I create like a really welcoming and like safe environment. I'm really patient.
I'm really

Speaker 2 communicative and I'm rational and I am, you know, supportive and proactive. And like, I had to start seeing myself like in that way.

Speaker 2 to have peace and to not enter like a cycle of insecurity, you know?

Speaker 1 Dude, that must have been so refreshing because I think when you are met by a healthy,

Speaker 1 good partner who we all have our own shit, but like someone that's genuinely trying to be like, no, I really want to make this work and I don't want to fuck you up and I don't want to be fucked up and I want to do this together.

Speaker 1 Like you just start to raise your standard for yourself of like how you are going to show up.

Speaker 1 And like you said, it's so beautiful, like with your child knowing how you care for a whole ass human being and how you show up for your child to see a partner like come into your life and be able to not only like embrace you guys, but also add value to the dynamic.

Speaker 1 Like, that's so fucking refreshing and probably nice for you.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it also forced me to do everything like really, really in the right way. You know what I mean? Like, becoming a single mom was like a real grown-up wake-up call for me.

Speaker 2 That was like a moment where I was like, I can't just like,

Speaker 2 you know, skate past this. Like, you know, this has changed the entire dynamic of my life.

Speaker 2 Like, it's changed everything about like my own feelings of hurt and wanting to act on those versus like what's right for my child. And like, you know, I had to,

Speaker 2 I had to like,

Speaker 2 I had already like speedrun grown up when I became a mom, but then I had to like secondary like speedrun grow up where like I grew out of that not wanting to be inconvenient or not wanting to be a problem or not wanting to be clingy or not wanting to be extra.

Speaker 2 Like I had to grow out of that to date again as a single mom. Whereas, like, I wasn't in a situation where, like, you know,

Speaker 2 I'm if you're like, I couldn't be in a situation where I'm like texting a guy or like a girl or talking to whoever. And I'm like, hey, so, like, do you want to make plans for next week?

Speaker 2 And they're like, oh, I'm not really like big into plans. Like, I'll see you when I see you.
Like, I couldn't be like, okay, like, I had to be like, I'm a mom. I have a schedule.

Speaker 2 Do you want to see me or not? And if you don't, then like, bye. You know what I mean? And so it was like, I, it just like, it forced me out of being able to

Speaker 2 like accidentally

Speaker 2 like people, please. I got to like make myself smaller because I was like, I can't.
So, like, what's up?

Speaker 1 You know, that is like so beautiful to hear. And I'm so happy for you in like everything you've shared today.

Speaker 1 I feel like that has like beautifully led you to where you're at now, where like you are engaged, you are a mother, like you are so successful.

Speaker 1 You have this new album coming out, which we have to talk about. Like, like I said, I was listening to it.
I'm like, there is a lot in this album. Yeah.
And it's called The Great Impersonator.

Speaker 1 What is the meaning behind the title?

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Speaker 2 I think it's, you know, it's sort of

Speaker 2 like a double entendre. Okay.

Speaker 2 You know, like on the one hand, I think it kind of touches on some of what we've talked about this time, which is me figuring out that Halsey's kind of serving as more of an alter ego than like just a stage name.

Speaker 2 Yep. And like kind of admitting that and like coming forward and being like, I've built a career off of being really honest and authentic.

Speaker 2 And maybe I haven't been as honest and authentic as I thought the past couple years.

Speaker 2 Maybe I have more to say. And what forced me into that was obviously getting so sick that I thought I was going to die.

Speaker 2 You know, like when you think you're going to die, you have an existential crisis that is just like indescribable to

Speaker 2 your former self. Like you kind of have to like live through it to understand it.
And like, I just started looking at myself and

Speaker 1 being like, okay, if you do die, is this,

Speaker 2 you're happy with this? This is how everyone's going to remember you?

Speaker 2 It's like the last thing you did, last thing you said, like, have, you know, we tell ourselves a lot of time we have more time and like we do, but like, nothing is promised to us.

Speaker 2 So there's times where I was like, like example, like the song about my dad, I told you, I was like, I was like, oh, I'll do it on the next album.

Speaker 2 I'll do it on the next album because I was too scared. And with this one, I was like, might not be a next album, bitch.

Speaker 1 Put it out.

Speaker 2 Speak your truth. There might not be a next album, you know? And so it kind of like forced me into the situation where I was like, I have to just act and do and be as truthful as I possibly can.

Speaker 2 But I started thinking about fate a lot. I started thinking like, okay, does everything happen for a reason, right? Like, I'm born in 1994.

Speaker 2 Does that, is that how I end up halsey? Is because like I'm born at the right time, at the right moment. Like, if I'm born 10 years earlier, five years later, do I end up famous?

Speaker 2 Do I end up an art teacher? Do I end up like in jail? Like, what am I, you know? And then, so I was like, what if I debuted in the 70s?

Speaker 2 Like, what if I debuted in the the 80s the 90s and I started exploring all these different like versions of me making music in like different decades so in a sense I'm kind of like impersonating other

Speaker 2 you know stars of of that time and kind of doing an exploration or like a thought experiment on that because it's like

Speaker 2 The big thing that kept coming up when I got sick was a lot of people like in the medical field were pretty adamant with me.

Speaker 2 Like you're sick because of your job interesting some said it just directly and some you know in not so many words just kind of like well like stress and like lack of sleep and traveling and jet lag poor nutrition putting strain on your body like these things can trigger autoimmune diseases and the particular autoimmune disease i have lupus can trigger um

Speaker 2 you know it can trigger leukemia lymphoma like a lot of a lot of like blood cancers and like lymph cancers are more more common in people who have chronic, you know, autoimmune conditions.

Speaker 2 And so they all kind of just trickle down to this like, you're stressed out all the time kind of thing. So that led me to be like,

Speaker 2 you know, becoming Halsey was like the craziest thing that's ever happened to me in my life. But like, is this a consequence of that? You know, and like, does it go this way?

Speaker 2 No matter what, if I become Halsey, this is how my life goes. Am I a single mom? Am I sick? Am I like, is there any way to like beat that fate or beat that destiny?

Speaker 2 can i ask like how are you feeling today pretty good okay yeah i like i came back from

Speaker 2 i came back from new york i was there for the vmas and i noticed i was kind of starting to have a flare like a lupus flare okay um

Speaker 2 and i haven't had one in a little while because you know my disease has been like you know in remission

Speaker 2 and i was kind of like

Speaker 2 thinking about it. I was thinking about how like a lot of my fans or a lot of my audience that's also dealing with chronic illness, they say to me all the time, like, I don't know how you do that.

Speaker 2 Like, you must be so much stronger than me. Like, I can barely get out of bed or I can barely go to school.
And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't want you thinking that

Speaker 2 I'm stronger than you or like you can't accomplish as much as me. Like,

Speaker 2 I went and did the VMAs. I worked really hard that whole week and then I had a flare as a consequence of that.
That's reality. That's the risk.
And you guys, like the fans, like, you're the reward.

Speaker 2 And I have to kind of like balance that every time I do something it's just like knowing that that's a possibility and kind of adapting to that new normal and like so what happens then is like I have to rest or I have to go get treatment or I have to like you know I have to change certain things but it's by no means because like I'm built differently than anyone else it's like I'm also in a significant position of privilege compared to most people who are dealing with chronic illness you know in terms of like you know, the treatments I can get, the access that I can get.

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 and so I'm just using all of those things to kind of to mitigate what is my new normal. I definitely had a situation like a couple

Speaker 2 a couple like weeks ago, um, and that's why I'm kind of like chuckling to myself about this flare because I did the thing where I was like, I'm feeling so good, I don't know if I need treatment anymore.

Speaker 2 And so I was like, I'm gonna stop treatment, like, I don't want to put this stuff in my body, like, I'm gonna be fine.

Speaker 2 It's like, I was like, bitch, you didn't learn your lesson when you did that with antidepressants.

Speaker 2 Like, first of all, but then, like, you know, I was like, I'm feeling really good like I don't think I need to do it anymore and like you know I'm putting all this these medicines in my body and like maybe I can just do it with like diet and like with whatever and

Speaker 2 I stopped for like a little bit I like skipped a treatment

Speaker 2 immediate flare I was like on the flight home and like one of the first signs of a lupus flare is you get this butterfly shaped rash across your cheeks yeah I got up to like go use the restroom on the plane I looked in the mirror and I was like fuck

Speaker 2 you've got to be fucking kidding me

Speaker 2 and i kind of like had to like i like walk ashamed back to my seat and like sat down and was like damn and that was a sad moment for me because i was like i had felt so good like you know i was like on tv and on the carpet and i was like i'm doing it again i'm great and everything's good and like it made me like kind of emotional because i was kind of like i'm still sick that's still

Speaker 2 reality like this is forever now and that was hard you know i couldn't just be like well that was crazy those two years ha ha moving on like i had to be like no this is still this is forever.

Speaker 2 I'm still like coming to terms with that, like little by little.

Speaker 1 I can only imagine how hard that is. And like, I, I think in different capacities, everyone can find a way to relate to that feeling of like, oh, no, no, no, I don't need this anymore.

Speaker 1 I'm going to be fine. And then it, you go back to not being fine and you're like, this is so emotionally heavy to deal with.

Speaker 1 But I do think that it's incredible that you have been open as much as you want to be about that because I do, again, believe it helps other people realize like someone that is as successful as you also is just not living this perfect fairy tale life, and everything's fucking fine.

Speaker 1 Like, everything you're writing about in this album is so fucking real. Like, what is the hardest song that, like, you wrote to write?

Speaker 2 The Life of the Spider. Really? Yeah, that was like the hardest.
It's like, just like me in a piano, kind of sounds like a voice note, like a little bit. And every time I hear it, I cry.

Speaker 2 Just like hearing my voice, like in that state.

Speaker 2 And I wrote that song about being sick and about just like feeling like such a burden. And also just feeling disgusting.
I felt so gross and so terrible about myself when I was sick.

Speaker 2 It's like, you know, I was like,

Speaker 2 I was really gaunt and like my face changed. And my face had just, my face and body had just changed because I just had a baby.

Speaker 2 You know, I was pregnant and like, I went through all those changes and then it changed again like this when I got sick so fast, you you know,

Speaker 2 and um

Speaker 2 I was like vomiting but then like you know, I was like s brushing my teeth made me scared because I was scared it was gonna induce more vomiting and like I was

Speaker 2 I was I was just so sick and so gross and like I felt revolting. Like I didn't feel good about myself at all and like you know I I felt

Speaker 2 I felt you know kind of trapped in like this cycle of feeling resentment from

Speaker 2 people close to me, you know.

Speaker 2 Some real, some imagined, you know, think both. Classic.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 just kind of this feeling of like

Speaker 2 everyone had depended on me for so long.

Speaker 2 And I kind of like, it was a hell of my own design because I told everybody for so long, like, I don't need help. I can take care of myself.

Speaker 2 And then I needed help, and everybody was like, What do you mean? Like, you conditioned us to believe that you take care of yourselves.

Speaker 2 And now you're getting mad at us because we're not helping, but we don't know how to because you've never let us before, you know. And so that was really, really hard.

Speaker 2 But also, just kind of feeling like, God, what a, how dare I inconvenience you so much by

Speaker 2 by being dying. Right.

Speaker 1 I was gonna say, like, like, but again, going back to everything you've shared today, like, you're used to being the one that's taking care of and fixing everyone.

Speaker 1 So, like, to ask for help must feel just so unnatural to you. Yeah.
But, like, you need help from people. You need support.
You need people to be there for you.

Speaker 1 But it's hard to ask when you're someone that is not used to asking. Yeah.

Speaker 2 A big thing for me was like a lot of my relationships, I felt like because I'm traveling all the time and because I'm gone and because I am really like insulated and self-sufficient in that way, where it's like, you know, I feel like when you're in the public eye or like you are like, you know, you're financially like secure in the way that like you are in the business, it changes your friendships, right?

Speaker 2 Because like I'm moving, right?

Speaker 2 I don't have to ask my friends to come help me move because I'm just going to move like at the moving company and do the thing or like I need someone to pick me up from a surgery or like take me to the dentist or like, you know,

Speaker 2 whatever and it's like, I'll get a driver.

Speaker 2 It's like, you know, you lose that kind of like village community we look out for each other kind of thing but then on the flip side I'm always taking care of stuff for other people right you know what I mean so it changes the dynamics of the relationship I'm also a spiritual person so I also believe sometimes that like you will end up in situations where if your like spirit guide or your guardian angel or whatever it is that you believe knows that you won't make a hard decision for yourself they'll kind of put you in a position where the other person does it for you but it's for you you know what i mean yes like you can feel it when it's happening yeah This whole album is incredible.

Speaker 1 I'm so excited for you. Last two questions, I promise.
Okay.

Speaker 1 One, what are you most excited to perform? What song?

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 There's two for two different reasons. I really can't wait to play Panic Attack because it's just like such a musical song.

Speaker 2 Like it's got like the piano, the piano is so warm and the guitar is so great and the drums are so like, I just imagine I'm going to get on stage and feel like I'm a part of like a big band, like a 70s big band.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean? And like with all the musicians on stage, just like twirling around. Like, it's very Laurel Canyon.
Like, you know, it's got that like Fleetwood Mac vibe.

Speaker 2 So I can't wait to do that because I just feel like it's going to be so like classic.

Speaker 2 But then definitely the Only Living Girl in LA. It's a six minute song.

Speaker 2 So like, I don't know how I'm going to play it live, but I feel like there's so many fun moments for the fans to like join in on, like ad-libs and stuff that it's going to feel like we're performing it together.

Speaker 2 And I love when a song feels like you and the audience are doing it together, not like you're doing it at them, you know?

Speaker 1 It's so sad and beautiful. And listening to it, I was like, Halsey,

Speaker 1 I wanted to like give you a hug. I was like, this is so fucking sad, but it's so, it's really an incredible song.

Speaker 1 I mean, every single song is incredible, and you're such an incredible writer, but I'm just so happy for you because

Speaker 1 you are clearly so talented, and everything that you have gone through in your career and your personal life to see this new work of art that you've put together is truly incredible.

Speaker 1 And I wouldn't say that if I didn't feel that way. Like, listening to it in my car, I also chose to listen to it in the car because I was like, I need this.
It's a car.

Speaker 2 It's facilitating.

Speaker 1 And I, I'm so happy I got to meet you because your energy and your spirit and just who you are as a person, like, it does change my fandom over you even more.

Speaker 1 Like, I feel like an even bigger fan after getting to speak with you today. Thank you for like taking the time today because it was, I think the daddy gang is going to freak out over this.

Speaker 1 And I know your fans will, but thank you for giving me the time.

Speaker 2 Oh my gosh, of course. Also, you have to teach me how to plan a wedding.
I don't know what I'm doing. Trust me.
I have no idea. I'm really overwhelmed.

Speaker 1 Trust me, I've got you because I was like, I didn't even know what I would want to wear. I was like the antithesis of a bride when I first started.
And like, I figured it out.

Speaker 2 Well, I told you, I never wanted to be married. So when I'm talking, people are like, when you were a little girl, what did you dream about? Like, nothing.
And I was like, I didn't. I have no idea.

Speaker 2 Right. Like, being successful.
I'm just obsessed with my fiancé.

Speaker 2 And I just like fucking like want to, like, I want to crawl inside his skin and be like a part of him and like I need a wedding where like I can either do that and it's not weird or like it there's something in place that prevents me from trying to do it, you know?

Speaker 1 Palsy, I could not relate more to you and I will give you all of the wedding tips that you need. Thank you for coming on Caller Daddy with Donner.

Speaker 2 Thank you. Thank you.
Thanks for having me.

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