Halsey: Power Dynamics & Toxic Relationships (FBF)

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What is up, Daddy Gang?

It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy.

Halsey, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

Thanks for having me.

I am so happy that we're finally doing this.

I feel like I've been waiting to meet you for so long.

I know, me too.

So, thank you for coming.

Of course.

I realize that some of the daddy gang may not know that your legal name is Ashley and Halsey is a stage name.

What do the people closest to you call you?

Ash.

Ash.

Everyone calls me Ash.

My son just started calling me Ash.

I was like, you better

get it together.

I'm mommy to you, okay?

I was like, I'm going to start, I'm going to have to make him a shirt, make myself a shirt.

It says, call me mommy.

Like, I was.

He's like, he goes, Ash.

I'm like, mm-mm.

He goes, well, I want to call you Ash.

I'm like, well, you can't.

You can't.

I'm mother.

I know.

I don't know how to explain it to him in a way that doesn't sound like so

like psychotically like you have to respect me and give me this name like there's no way to explain it like he's like why can't I call you ash if everyone else does I'm like that's a great question no which but I just don't like it but I also think it's like the rite of passage, like when you become a parent.

You're like, give me at least like 10 years of calling me like mom and mommy.

And now you're three.

Right.

You can call me Ash later.

Like, it's like, it's so funny.

Yeah, it's, it's crazy.

Is it weird if anyone in your life would like refer to you as Halsey?

Some people do.

Like, I think it's kind of interchangeable at this point.

I like answer to it the same way as if it was my name.

It feels the same in my body.

It does.

You know, like it feels like, it's like it registers the same emotionally as if someone says Ash or Ashley.

Have you ever looked at it like it's an alter ego?

Um, recently, yeah.

Okay.

I didn't mean to when I started.

It was just a name because my name's Ashley Frangiapani.

And like you can't

be Franjipani.

You have to say it in your New Jersey accent.

My name is Ashley Frangiapani.

So, you know, there was no, that wasn't happening.

So it was just supposed to be like an easy like moniker.

Yeah.

And then, yeah, I would say like a couple years ago, I started having thoughts like that were like, oh, well, that's very Halsey.

Or, like, well, I dress like this when I'm Ash, and then I dress like this when I'm Halsey.

And then I kind of was like, Whoa, when did I start differentiating between the two?

Like, when did they become two separate things?

Was that like freaky or no?

Kinda, yeah, because I was kind of like, How did it happen?

What is the difference between Halsey and Ashley?

Like, give us an example.

Well, you know, what's funny is I think Ashley is like,

like,

when I'm Ash, like, I'm definitely way more, I think, masculine than when I'm Halsey, and I'm not really certain, like, where that kind of started to divert, you know what I mean?

Like, when I'm home, like, I'm like a, I'm like a boy clothes, short hair, like, not to like gender clothes, but like, you know what I'm saying,

and I'm definitely kind of,

I think that Ash is like less

provocative.

Like, I'm very, like, chill, very patient, you know what I mean?

Like, very, like

maternal.

And then I feel like Halsey, a lot of people have this idea that I'm like really provocative.

And like, you know, I'm like always like yapping.

I'm a big yapper.

Halsey's a yapper.

Ash is not so much a yapper.

Have you ever become like a little resentful of the persona that you've created?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, definitely.

I think that the part part of the problem though is that like, you know, people just kind of decide who you are based on like when they got to know you.

You know what I mean?

Like I've been seeing a lot of that happening.

Like every now and then, like I'll see like a comment under like a picture of like me and my partner.

And someone's like, I thought she was dating blah, blah, blah.

And it's like someone from like six years ago.

And I'm like, oh, your update.

And like, I don't expect everyone to know everything about me that's going on at any given moment.

But like they just locked in something from like a big press moment or like a time when I was like really on or like they were reading about me or a lot.

And they were like, and that's who you are forever.

And I'm like, whoa, it's been like six years.

So much has happened.

that's like kind of a mind fuck mentally to be like no no no i've progressed and grown but you guys see this persona that like was very there in your minds and it never grew and i've like fully grown as a human being totally and yet halsey is just like almost like stuck in time for people which i think a lot of celebrities or performers have that like And everyone decides when they want to grow with their performer or not.

Like it's fucking confusing.

Yeah.

How would you describe your relationship to fame?

I'm kind of indifferent at this point.

I used to be like, it used to be not that way.

It used to be just torturous.

You know what I mean?

Like, I, I will say, like, it never really felt normal.

It still doesn't.

Like, I've, I've been doing this for like 11 years.

You would think at this point that I would just be like, yeah, I'm famous.

No, that is not how it is.

I like still wake up every day.

And not and then like, I wake up every day and I'm like, oh my God.

It's more like I wake up every day and I'm like, what the fuck?

You know what I mean?

And I think that I also like, I've kept like a lot of really normal people around me.

And

you know what?

Actually, that's the distinction.

That's when the distinction started happening was that, was that when I started to become like a celebrity, like the distinction between Halsey and Ashley, I think is very much that like Ashley stayed the same, you know, where like when I'm out with my friends, like my best friend Erica, um, she's been my best friend since I was like 13.

And she's like, she says to me like

once a month or like a couple of times a month, like we'll be out somewhere doing something and someone will be like, oh, can I picture there's like a papazi?

There's like whatever.

And she'll be like, dude, I like just forget you're famous every day.

That's the best.

I just forget all the time.

And she's like lived with me.

She's been around for like every step of the journey.

She's like.

backstage at the VMAs with me.

And then like the next day, she's like, I forget you're famous.

I'm like, how you were at the VMAs yesterday.

How did you forget?

And she's like, you just are still so, you're exactly the same as you were.

You know what I mean?

I do think like that's so important to have though because at the end of the day like all these people that are famous it you're famous for like something that you're really good at obviously some people are just famous because they're famous but like you are so talented and your talent has made you famous of course but with that like you are just still a human being that like likes to sleep and likes to eat and likes to chill with friends and so I think having those like friends around you must still make you feel like the person from New Jersey was just growing up and like had a talent.

I think that's helpful to have.

When do you feel most like yourself?

Like, what would you be doing?

Um,

well, I'm pretty boring.

Okay.

I didn't used to be.

I, I, like, I got it out of my system.

You know what I mean?

Like, I, I had like a couple of years where I look back on and like cringe into like a black hole when I see those photos or like, but I'm also really grateful for them because I just like did it in a contained set of years.

And then I'll never have to do it again.

So like now I'm just boring.

Like, no, you're not boring, but I know what you're talking about.

I think we all have that where we're like,

what was I doing?

Like, what, what would you say you did that was cringe?

Oh my God.

There's like so many pictures of me just like

fucked up, like leaving a club, like like paparazzi, like, it's like three in the morning.

I'm like, what are you doing?

But also, I was like 22, you know what I mean?

So when I see that, I'm like gentle with myself about it.

But like, or like times where I like,

I don't know, there's stuff that's like maybe cringe, but also maybe part of me, I'm a little bit like,

go off, like, you know, or like, like, I clapped back at someone, or I like, you know, like, I went off or something like that.

And like, I see that, and I'm like, gosh, you were so angry and so confused, and so like overwhelmed, and like, you had no one to help you.

So I have like a lot of compassion for that version of me.

But then there's also times where I'm like, girl, shut up.

You know, I'm like, shut up.

No, I think that's like, no matter if you're famous or not, like, people can look back at old Facebook photos and be like, what was I up to?

Totally.

Like, Like what was going on there, Alex?

But then at the end of the day, you're like, well, I was fucking young.

And like, I was having, I think, a good time.

I mean, I didn't go to college.

You know what I mean?

So I didn't have like those years.

And it's funny, the same, like, I feel like the same people who will pass judgment for like photos of me in like my 20s, like, not even in my 20s, like at 20, you know, because I was 19 when I wrote my first album.

And,

you know, there's like pictures of me from that time.

And people are like, oh, gosh.

Like, and I feel like there's this almost indication of like, no class.

And I'm like, what if i were at like a university and like these pictures were just like on facebook or like whatever and i was just like going like you would just consider that a natural part of me like finding myself and like you know but because there's this extra set of expectations i think there's like a separate judgment that's passed and like i try to i try to like contextualize it that way and be like girl you would have been doing the same thing if you stayed in jersey if you went to rutters you know what i mean like you may have been worse actually i was gonna say if you went to Rutgers, you would have been like face up on a keg stand.

Like, you would have had pictures of you on the keg stand.

Like, it would have been similar, if not worse.

I know.

How do you choose what to keep private and what to put into your art and your music?

Um,

I don't know that I really

choose.

Okay.

I think it kind of I just like write what I'm feeling.

There's a song on this album called Hurt Feelings, and it's about my dad.

I've written a song about my dad every single album.

And every single time, just when we get to the time where we're deciding the track list, I cut the song because I'm like, I can't do it.

I'm too scared.

I'm too scared.

I'm too scared.

And this time I didn't.

And I put it on the album.

And that was like a moment for me where I was like, okay, this is something I have kept private, but now I feel ready to like get out there.

And I feel like I have a responsibility, kind of.

Do you have a relationship with your father?

Like, does he know this is going to be on the album?

He doesn't know it's going to be on the album.

We have a pretty complicated relationship, which is like, you know, I don't think that's like groundbreaking.

I feel like a lot of young women have complicated relationships with their fathers.

I think for me, especially, you know, I started making music when I was 18 and it kind of started to blow up when I was 19.

And it just changed everything about our family's dynamic because I became the breadwinner and I became kind of like, you know,

in a way, like I became

like the matriarch patriarch of my family.

And and I think that you know for a man who like spent his whole life like working really hard to support his family

and then you know I kind of come in and I'm like still a kid to him and I take that role I imagine that's probably

uh

just like conflicting yeah you know like an existential level and it definitely showed up in our relationship and so it's like affected it since yeah I can imagine that was very confusing for both of you like also you coming in being like, I don't know what the fuck to do either.

Like

and when you do look back, what is your earliest childhood memory that comes to mind?

It's so hard.

I'm like one of those people that doesn't remember like a lot of their childhood.

I had like a really, I had like a really hectic childhood.

My parents were really young when they had me.

They dropped out of college.

They met at Fairleigh Dickinson in Jersey.

And then they were like 19 or 20 when they got pregnant.

They'd only known each other for like a couple months.

And,

you know, they both dropped out and started their family with me.

We moved all the time.

Every year we moved.

Like, I wasn't at a school until like high school, I wasn't at a school longer for than like two years.

And I was always starting over in a new place.

We were just trying to go where there was like cheaper apartments, better jobs.

My parents were working like multiple jobs.

And like, my experience felt so irrelevant to like what they were going through.

You know what I mean?

It was like, my,

I think that when I look back on my childhood, my experience, my experience was very much to just like not get in the way because of how hard it was.

And like, I failed at that miserably.

I was getting in the way all of the time.

You know what I mean?

And then I feel like that has probably attributed to why I am in like the line of work that I'm in.

Because it's like, you know, we're all looking to satisfy some sort of like, not, I don't want to say need for attention because I feel like that's really

derogatory, but like

maybe like

we're looking for our voice and our experience to matter, you know.

But don't you feel like, even hearing you say that when you're like, I was always in the way, I'm like, Yeah, but I feel like that's what kids are supposed to do.

Totally.

And, like, I imagine you, though, like, under those circumstances of your parents constantly having to move, you were like hyper-aware of just like, stay over here, like, don't do anything, don't like, get in the way.

Like, I'm not that important right now.

Do you remember like what you felt about when you would like view your parents' like romantic relationship?

My parents were like really like,

I guess kind of volatile.

Like they were either like super in love and like cuddled on the couch, like laid the fuck up, like, you know, going on dates, like obsessed with each other like kids, or they were like at each other's throats.

There was like no, no in between.

And, you know, like,

I've actually never really talked about this before, but my household household was like pretty um

my household was pretty volatile you know what I mean like there was a lot of like um

there was a lot of like aggression you know what I mean um and aggression just like thrown in every direction like you know and

I think that it's so funny because I It's so obvious that you we witness that you form that as your perception of not necessarily of what love is, but what's acceptable in love, you know, and then that you apply that.

When I look on past relationships of mine, I'm like,

okay.

I'm like, literally, this is two plus two equals four.

Like, it's so simple, you know what I mean?

Fucked.

Yeah.

And, oh, that was, that is why I went for this, but it seems so simple, but it's like not also.

Yeah.

Cause you don't catch yourself immediately doing it.

And then when it's like a pattern, then you're like, whoa.

I know.

And then it's funny because you think you do the work and then like a different trauma sneaks up on you or it's like, okay, so you're like, all right, I'm going to tolerate like violence or aggression or like whatever it is because I experienced it.

But now I'm going to unlearn that so it never happens again.

And then you get into another relationship and you're like, this one's better because it's not like the last one.

And then like a different thing sneaks in.

You know what I mean?

Where it's like the person's like putting you down or they're like, I don't know, like gaslighting you or like whatever.

And you're like, is this a whole other thing?

This is a whole other thing.

Is it all just my childhood again no it's like

no literally it's like whack-a-mole because you're like oh maybe it's not like physical this time but it's like emotional this time but it's all under the same umbrella totally first of all thank you for sharing that because i feel like you're someone that like you're when you write in your songs like it's so powerful and i think a lot of people connect to you on how real you are in your lyrics especially this new album coming out when i was listening to it i was like I need, I feel like I need to pull over.

Like, this is, this is like, it's very heavy and emotional.

Yeah.

And I feel for you, but i think a lot of people can sadly relate to what you're going through when you were in those moments with your parents and it was volatile like were you someone that would just like be alone and not tell anyone how would you like yeah basically get through it i think i kind of coped in that way or just like waited for it to be over you know what i mean also like it changes hands when you're in a household like that like it usually starts and it's like you can kind of feel it happening to your mom and i'm the only daughter and the oldest okay wow so there was definitely a point where like the target kind of changed to me and you feel i think really alone in that in that sort of situation i definitely just mostly coped by writing.

I've always been a writer like my whole life.

And, you know, I like used to keep journals and like keep diaries and stuff like that.

And I read a lot.

And I def I was someone who kind of like i was into escapism for sure yeah you know what i mean like novels and like just putting myself into like other worlds that just felt like different than mine yeah would you ever talk to your mom like about it since she has i have okay yeah no i have my mom and i are super close okay yeah she's like my mom is like my my best friend and you know we have talked about it and like I think there's a couple stages of it, right?

Because then there's the first part where you have to be like, hey, why didn't you stand up for me?

And then there's the second part where you have to be like, also, I forgive you.

You were going through a lot.

And then there's like the third part of it, which is like, there's still stuff you do today that pisses me the fuck off.

But I understand why now because,

you know,

you've been conditioned, you know what I mean?

In a certain way.

And like, you have to have just like so much grace and understanding.

And like at a certain point, you have to just decide.

You have to decide what's forgivable, right?

And some things are and some things aren't.

Like, I don't stand by the thing with people where where it's like, oh, like they're your parents.

Like whatever it is, it's not that serious.

Like, you know, you have to,

you have to just like make sure you keep the relationship.

Like, I don't agree with that at all.

But then at the same time, I also don't agree with the idea of like, we should punish our parents forever for what they did to us.

It's like some things you forgive, some you don't, and that's up to you to decide.

That's a good point.

And it takes so much fucking time because like

the resentment, I feel like goes in and out, like depending at where you're at in life.

Like you can be like, okay, we're feeling good now and then like something like triggers you and reminds you of something they did when you were younger and you're like oh my god actually we're not done with this conversation there's more i just remembered and it's like an endless cycle but i agree like it doesn't it can't just be black and white where you forgive or it's like all perfect like there's gonna be conversations that keep having to happen yeah i think also something interesting that you were talking about was like going to all these different schools.

Like when we are young, a huge part also of like what forms our our personality and our tendencies is like our relationship with our friends and our peers.

You going to new schools constantly, like, how did you approach a new school?

Um, I was definitely like, this is an opportunity.

You know, I was always like, if there's something I want to try out or someone I want to be, like, I can do it here because no one knows me.

Oh, interesting.

You know, like when I was growing up, I was like, Ashley with a Y.

I was like, Ashley with two E's.

Oh, wow.

There was like one school I was at for like a really short period of time where I was like, I'm Ashley, but everyone calls me Sky.

It's like, not true.

I made that up.

I was just like nine.

And then, like, it was like years later.

I was like in a bar in New York, and someone came up to me and they were like, Skye.

And I was like, what?

And they were like, Sky.

Like, we went to school together.

And I was like, bitch, I'm stopped.

I don't even remember being that person.

Which is ironic now because if you know anything about me, like as an artist, like you're like, that tracks.

Like, you're constantly, you constantly look and seem and act like different, you know.

But that's kind of like fun and

tough as a kid.

Yeah.

You're constantly not having to have this like stable foundation around you.

Of like, I went to the same fucking school from like kindergarten to eighth grade.

So like we all knew each other's parents and we all knew each other's shit, which has its pros and cons, but like constantly moving, I feel like you can, yes, reinvent yourself,

but you also, I feel like, aren't really seen then.

No, definitely not.

Yeah, you're just like fragments of you out in the world, just like these little whispers of a person who's like barely even formed.

Like my manager, Anthony, has a tattoo on his arm and it's a tattoo of his childhood home.

And he was like, yeah, this is like a drawing of my childhood home.

And I was like, bitch, I don't, if you asked me what my childhood home was, I can't think of one because like I had so many.

Like I can't, I can't picture like a childhood home.

I lived in like eight houses, like apartments.

Like, you know what I mean?

You couldn't even like draw something.

I mean, I would have to, if I had to pick one that was like my childhood home, like maybe the house I lived in when I was in high school, but that's not really childhood.

No.

You know what I mean?

It was like, I lived lived in so many different apartments i lived in like florum park i lived in linden i lived in clark i lived in um like sussex i lived in i just lived in so many different places and all these like little apartments and they're all just kind of this like this like amorphous goo of like a bedroom and I'm like in there with my little brother and then there's like the kitchen and then like you know like the apartment complexes they all like blend into like one like when I picture it kind of I'm interested to get your take on this like what do you think is the difference between like hyper independence versus loneliness

um

I think it's whether it's forced or it's a choice you know what I mean yeah I think that's kind of the difference I think like if you're choosing to be hyper independent because it's like it's better for you and like you function you know better in that way versus if you're forced into hyper independence because you're not trusting or you have like an attachment issue or like you know, you're um,

you put a lot of self, like a lot of pressure on yourself to succeed or to accomplish.

That's kind of that, like, loneliness, like that solitude.

Like,

would you say you were lonely as a kid?

Oh my god, yeah, I was so lonely.

I was, I'm still lonely.

I'm like, you know, loneliness is like

when it affects you on,

you know,

I feel like there's like clinical loneliness,

you know, it's like there's like there's being sad because something happened, and then there's like obviously like depression, which is like, you know, it's clinical.

I feel like there's a version of that with loneliness, you know, where it's like you're lonely because people aren't around and you have no one to hang out with, or you're lonely because you're going through something singular.

And there's like deep, like carnal loneliness.

And I think that I've definitely felt that way for like a lot of my life.

and it's hard to fix you know it's like it's hard it's hard it's hard to to

get around that especially if you become comfortable in it you know well and I feel like what you're sharing too about your life which I appreciate you sharing all this just to pause for a second I feel like I'm being so dark no you're not fun podcast

I was lonely as a kid let me just say like this is the shit that I think like when we now, like, listen to your music, it even adds like more context.

And, like,

in my opinion, like, I feel not in a creepy way, but like, I feel closer to you now because I'm like, oh, fuck.

Like, so many people are like, preach, yes, same, same, fuck, same.

Like, you talking about your childhood.

I think that when people are listening to your music, it's, it is kind of helpful to know, like, no wonder you are lonely because, like, you came from this household environment that you had to become lonely because you constantly were just like surviving alone and like i think that happens a lot of times when there are volatile or abusive situations at home like if there's multiple people getting abused you can't even connect in the moment over it because you're just surviving totally and then you talking with your mom later on down the line like of course you wish you guys could have bonded over or talked about it when you were that young but you couldn't because you didn't have the tools either of you to be like yeah this is happening sometimes a lot of times it takes getting out to be able to talk about shit and it's generational you know what i mean like i always say it's like our like a lot of for a lot of us our parents were in the generation of survival we're the first with the luxury of existential thought you know what i mean like they didn't have the luxury to like be um

like putting putting thought into you know their existence or like the roles and dynamics at play or like you know the reasons why they're doing something like it was mostly just like surviving yeah you know i'm really interested to talk about this high school glow-up that you had because I could

not relate more to something.

I know that you've mentioned in the past you were kind of like insecure and unnoticed, and then going into sophomore year of high school, you had this glow-up.

Can you talk to me about that time of your life?

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Going into sophomore year of high school, you had this glow up.

Can you talk to me about that time of your life?

I was like really underdeveloped.

Okay.

You know what I mean?

I was like really skinny.

I like didn't hit puberty until like a lot later.

And I was like super nerdy at the glasses and like, you know,

um, I was like, yeah, I was just like a geek.

And then,

you know, I hit puberty and like I came back and all of a sudden I had like huge tits and like, you know, I got contacts and like, I, um,

I also kind of like, that was where I sort of entered my like, I kind of entered my villain era like when I was like 15, where I was like tired of being nerdy and geeky.

And I was like, fuck you guys.

Like, I actually have really cool interests and I hang out with adults, like, which is not good.

That's like a whole other separate bad thing.

But like,

yeah, but I felt very like, you know, I felt very like emboldened by that.

And I was just like at school, like, I don't know, my, coping mechanism of not getting along with the kids I went to school with or not like really fitting in and having a friend group was by telling myself it didn't matter because I had like cooler, more interesting friends and people I knew, most of whom were just like online, like, didn't really hang out with them in real life.

And I was like, you know, we're talking about like, you know, intellectual things and like whatever else.

But yeah, I definitely, um,

I feel like everything really changed really fast for me.

And I went from someone someone who was like,

who looked like a nerdy 10-year-old when I was 15 to like someone who was getting like tons of unwanted like sexual attention.

And I was like, what the fuck?

How did having like,

because I experienced a similar thing of like.

overnight going through theory and being like no no no no no like the same guy that's like bullying the fucking shit out of me is now like wanting to like take me on a date.

Totally.

Hold on.

Pause, you fucking piece of shit.

Like nothing changed except my looks.

And yet now you're into me.

Like how did that impact the way that you like felt about yourself?

I think it did in like a lot of different ways.

The first was I had to like differentiate, you know,

between

what attention was like kindness and what wasn't.

Because my first instinct is I was like, oh, people are being really nice to me now.

And I just missed the agenda completely.

And like, that was really hard to navigate because I didn't have a lot of experience with that.

And

it took me a long time to learn, like, if someone is like giving you that kind of attention, you're not obligated to return it.

I was really afraid of like making people mad or making people not like me.

And like, you know, on like the simplest level, it's like a guy will be like an asshole to you if you are kind of if you reject him.

And then on the worst version of it, there's violence, you know what i mean so it was kind of like it's i had to learn how to navigate like i am not obligated to concede or to give in to the sexual pursuit of me

just because it's happening but it's hard because when you go from not experiencing any of it that like a lot of your peers are experiencing and then all of a sudden all this validation comes like I remember when that happened to me, I felt at first so excited, like kind of like you're talking about, there's that like excitement of validation,

but underneath it, I think when I was alone, I had some like anger because I was like, totally, what like is it?

It's so surface level.

Like, I've been the same person the whole time, but you guys like didn't give me any fucking attention until I had tits and an ass.

And like, that's when you have to start doing the would you have been nice to me before?

And if the answer is no, then bye.

Bye.

It's really confusing.

Yeah.

Um, you said once that you thought your sexiness was a superpower, kind of like we're talking about, and made it so no one could hurt you.

And you would enter these rooms just like

feeling that confidence.

Yeah, I definitely wielded sexual power as like a, you know,

I don't know, like as a tool of acquisition, you know, like I definitely used it in certain circumstances because it was kind of all that I had.

Can you give me an example?

Well, like, you know, if you're in a room full of people, especially men, you know, and in this business, as I was starting my business and I was learning how to navigate the industry, it's not just like, I write songs.

I'm like, oh, I have to build a business.

You know,

you're in a room full of people who are more experienced than you.

They're older than you.

They're richer than you.

They're very often men, white men, you know.

And at the time, I was, I started out by trying to be like, look how smart I am and look how much I know.

And it was kind of like, okay.

And I was like, well, that's not working.

Okay.

And then at a certain time, I think in the beginning, I kind of figured out like

I can make all of these like really smart men dumb instantly if I'm just hot, you know?

Like, it's so crazy how fast they become stupid.

Like, there's so they have so much power over you in the moment where you're like, all the experience, the money, the power, the whatever.

And then you have this one little magic trick in your pocket where you can just be like, really?

And all of a sudden, that guy is like, uh,

and you're like, oh, God, that was so easy.

It's like, why wouldn't you use it if you have it then?

And I think so many people can relate to this.

Like,

I do think, yes, like women can relate to using that

part of us that is so sexualized.

Yeah.

And leaning into it, you can feel this like great, great energy from it.

And it's like until it becomes, feels gross, though.

Until it gets gross.

And it feels gross pretty fast, I feel like.

And I think like a lot of conversation I always see online, like I know Emily Radikowski has like talked a lot about it of like there's this weird fucking thing where you know you can use it to an advantage, but then you also have to like have some

ability to like navigate for yourself what you're comfortable with and what you're not comfortable with.

Yeah.

Like when do you think if you have like a memory that you were like, oh, I'm I'm taking it too far.

This actually is like, I'm not feeling chill about this.

Um, I mean, there's been like a couple times.

There's definitely like some times where like I was,

you know, I was like out with like some collaborators and it was like late and like um

someone was just like

we were kind of like playfully flirting in a way that was like seemed really harmless yeah and then they got like really drunk and they just started kind of like touching me like in public and i was like whoa

but at the time you know you're just like i was younger then but it was like you don't want to cause a scene you don't want to like you know there's other people there you don't want them them to see you freak out and then they don't want to work with you because they think you're a drama queen and like whatever else and and you know and these are all like i said younger minded belief systems of mine that have obviously since changed now that i'm older but like it was those kind of things where i was like this is not worth it you know it's because it's becoming unsafe and i uh

i i don't want you know

i don't want this to seem like i'm signing a uh

I'm signing some sort of invisible contract where I'm promising something to someone.

Yeah.

You know?

And I think the concept of like being a young person in a situation where there's a power dynamic, like you're just, it's such this like hard thing to explain until you're in those situations where you referenced it earlier of like, I didn't want to make this person upset and I didn't want it to escalate where it could literally get to the point where it goes like violent.

So you kind of just like appease the situation.

And I think that is where it can get really scary and it and you keep just like we just can appease people and like make it be like oh no no everything's fine everything's fine and it's like but then you go home and you feel like gross and shitty with you i had like a really strange situation a couple years ago

i mean i guess it was quite a it was quite a long time ago

but i was out and i was with this uh executive like this really powerful executive who works in music in some capacity and i'd been going out and like

hanging out with him and like some other people at the company and like you know we were working together and like everything was like really fine like it was very just like um

celebratory and like there was a lot of like industry talk I didn't feel weird about it at all and I like had like my two managers with me who are kind of like older guys and like I never felt like unsafe or anything we were out one night and like

He was like, oh, like I want to send a photo to like my niece of us together or something like that.

And I was like, okay.

And I like took out my phone.

I took like a selfie of the two of us and I handed him my phone and I was like, text it to yourself.

I have to pee.

And then I went to the bathroom.

And when I came back, he like handed me my phone like this.

And I saw he was like going through my nudes on my phone.

What is wrong with people?

And I like sat down and I was like,

I actually didn't even know what to do.

I was just like frozen.

I was like, did I just imagine that?

Was that an accident?

Like.

Did the phone like scroll out?

Like, what?

What the heck just happened?

And then I was like, did he text them to himself and then delete the messages?

Like, I don't even know where these are now.

Like, I was just like,

I was like frozen.

And I was like, that's so crazy that, like, I'm in this situation where like I have so much power.

I have a bodyguard.

Like, I have a

secure, a bodyguard.

And I have, you know.

all the leverage in the world and I'm in this like exclusive space in this like VIP like you know I've reached the ranks of like oh I am

protected or like whatever else it may be.

And then this invasive thing just happens like on a whim.

And I was like, oh my God.

I was, it made me feel,

I felt like

it regressed me so much.

Like it made me feel, I went from being like, yeah, I'm like.

fucking hot shit and I'm one of the big players.

And like, and I sat down and when that happened in that moment, I was like, you're nothing.

You're nothing.

You'll always be nothing.

You're still just like that fucking girl who's like getting, you know, taken advantage of or like men are talking about you behind your back or you're some sort of like collateral.

I was like, you're nothing.

It was so demoralizing.

It's so

and so many worse things have happened to me than that, but that one stuck out for some reason because it was so nonchalant.

Right.

No, that's like, that's what I think it's so.

I appreciate you sharing the details even of like, you're where you at, you're in your career.

You have a fucking bodyguard.

Yeah, I think, and, and you technically, like, we revert to that like little child of like

men ruling the world and us just having to appease them, like we were just talking about.

And you in that moment, like, no, of course, and people be like, why didn't you just say something?

It's like, you don't get it until you're fucking in those moments where it's like.

There is kind of nothing to say, but even if you said something, then you're the crazy bitch that it's like, oh, and then someone calls you a slut.

Cause then, what do you mean?

What are you talking about?

You're nudes.

You take nudes.

Like they can turn it so fucking fast on you.

Also, it's like, are you a, are you like a bad bitch businesswoman?

That's the other thing is it's like, at what point, you know, where is the line between like, I am a powerful woman, so I have to stand up to myself and the line between that and I'm a powerful woman.

So I have to not let certain things bother me so that I can outplay these men in the long game.

There's so much to think about in that moment.

You know what I mean?

It's like, am I going to let this bother me?

This like pathetic, squirmy little worm action of this man when like I could just let it go and then I'll get the last laugh because I'm building my business and I'm looking out for my life and whatever?

Or like, do I have a responsibility as a woman in a position of power to stand up for myself in that moment?

I don't know which is what is expected of me.

I don't think anyone in your position or

anyone really in those moments knows what to do, even like the highest of powered people.

Like, and I think that's why this is a really interesting conversation because it's like, you're so fucking right.

Had you said something and made a scene, then you're just like, oh, she's like the crazy bitch.

Like, no one works with her anymore.

She like makes stuff up and she like uses her like sexual being parts of herself as like a way to like get people in trouble.

We don't touch her anymore.

Like, no one's like, she'll go to the black widow.

She'll flirt with you and then she'll like screw you

later.

I'm like, whoa, okay.

And men don't have that experience where they're never being like overly sexualized in those moments.

They're like, oh, can't relate.

Got to go.

Ew, she's crazy yeah yeah get off of me whatever totally it's not only is it the best interview because you're fabulous it's also like i have been wanting to have these type of conversations with someone that gets it and can talk about it but also is not like above it where you're like you are in it and you've experienced it and i think so many young people are gonna be like yeah fuck thank you for just talking about something that we don't have the answer to any of this no also as a thing people look to us and they're like so what do you do in those situations because they're like oh thank you for sharing so what's the solution and you're like i don't know i'm still figuring that out i don't know you know what i mean like i'm still figuring out so many things like i even now like you know i

like where are the lines you know like sometimes it's just like

If someone's being like a little overly friendly, it's hard sometimes to be like, okay, is it like because they're excited to talk to me?

Or is it because they're like, they don't understand social cues?

Or like, you know, what is it?

Or Or like, is this worth being like, yo,

chill?

Yeah.

You know?

And I think I had a situation that happened to me this past year.

And I feel like odd because my show, you would expect me to immediately like run and sit in front of the camera and talk about it for all of the young people listening to me.

I'm still trying to figure out like how to talk about that situation because it is a work situation.

And I'm like, I may see this person again.

And it's a situation where it's like, like, wow, like

I don't think anyone would expect me to not say something.

And I didn't say something in that moment.

And I was so uncomfortable.

And it's like, I think the point is two people in seemingly positions of power are sitting here acknowledging today to young people that experience this.

Like, there is no answer, but I do think through a show like this and through your music, like by us just talking about it, writing about it, singing about it, it just starts to like normalize more of the conversation.

So people don't feel so ashamed to talk to even a fucking friend.

You don't have to report something immediately.

Like it doesn't have to go to the highest level.

Just like acknowledging it, I feel like is the first step to making some progress.

Absolutely.

It's an ongoing conversation.

Also, people don't like it when rules change.

That's like the other thing is like people also don't like it when you have like nuanced rules.

You know, like for example, like I'm topless on my album cover for my fourth record.

And it's like my nipple was in Target.

Like it's everywhere.

But like people sometimes will just like walk into my dressing room and I'll be like, yo, the door.

And it's like the expectation is like, what are you showing everyone your tits?

And I'm like, okay, well, I'm revoking that right in this moment.

Like I'm allowed to decide.

I don't want you to see me naked right now just because you've seen me naked before.

Like I'm allowed to change my mind.

Or like someone's like, oh, like, you know, I saw you in this one interview with like this person and you were like so touchy feely and like so comfortable.

It's like, why are you being so standoffish to me?

And I'm like, I have a like, you don't know my relationship with that person separate of that interview or like you don't know this or like you know i'm i

reserve the right to change what i'm comfortable with but people don't like that because then they go oh she's so wishy-washy they're always changing their mind like pick one like what is it and it's like i'm allowed to change my mind Not only are you allowed to change your mind, like there are different boundaries per situations you're in in life of like, you may have been having a really rough morning.

And so like, yeah, I'm not in the mood for this.

And like, no matter what the fuck you're in in the mood for, that's okay.

And people that make you feel uncomfortable or like you're being unreasonable, that is a red fucking flag.

Like if something's, if someone is constantly coming at you and making you feel like you're over dramatic or you're being high maintenance and you're

pause.

Or like you took away the blanket consent that I thought you gave to all of us.

And like, I wanted that too.

And like, the reason they're reacting that way is because what they believe you've given them is, you know, with this like hypothetical blanket consent is like they see an opportunity that they want to leverage that for their own personal gain or their own whatever.

And when you take it away, they're offended.

It's like you've taken something from me and it's access to you.

They feel like ownership over you in a way.

Like that example of your nipple being in Target.

Yeah.

You made a decision the day of your photo shoot to do something creative and artistic that you were comfortable with that day.

That does not mean that everyone in the fucking world, when you're walking on the street, can be like, I'm just going to pull pull out my hair, like nipple-free for everyone to see.

Like, it's wild that they, like, people feel entitled.

The entitlement to our bodies and moments, if you, it's crazy.

Yeah, I want to talk about romantic relationships.

Okay, because we kind of started about your childhood, and I feel like, again, what we've been kind of talking about is like, they're all fucking connected.

Did you tend to fall in love easily when you were younger?

Not when I was younger, actually.

When I was younger, like when I was a young adult, definitely.

when I was a teenager not so much

I wasn't like super trusting you know what I mean um

when I was I think honestly once I became famous I think I fell in love faster because I was so desperate for like stability and like partnership and like I just wanted to be seen and I wanted like a constant yeah so you know

I think that I, a lot of the time, would

sort of project that onto people.

Yeah.

Like, you've ignored a lot of red flags, like that kind of thing.

And, like, not even like some of them super like insidious red flags, but some of them just like more harmless ones of like, we're just not really compatible in that way.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

You have talked about a relationship you had when you were 17.

The guy was 24.

Yeah.

And he was a pretty big drug addict and was into drugs.

Yeah.

What drew you to that person initially?

I'm a fixer.

I am a fixer.

I'm like, I can fix you.

I can fix you.

Like, you know, I am,

it's funny.

I felt like becoming a mom was so

natural to me.

I struggle with it in the same way that every mom does.

But at the end of the day, I think I had so much blanket patience because of how much time I spent trying to like fix and mother people up until that point where like my

my like patience for someone not growing the way you want them to or as fast as you want them to or like whatever was like already so established.

Oh my god.

You're like, I've been a mother way before my child.

Yeah, seriously.

I've been mothering these men for a long time, Alex.

No, that makes sense.

And I think it's again, like, interesting to hear you talk about a dynamic that can be like someone struggling so much with an addiction.

Like I had a relationship with someone that struggled a lot with addiction and I was very young and he was older than me.

And I remember the

power imbalance was like so ever present and I would feel so

insecure and I would want to like, I think when you're the person that's not in the position of power, you find yourself like doing things to try to like even the playing field.

And really it's like kind of you appeasing them and doing what they want you to do.

So you feel closer to them.

Absolutely.

Did you experience that with this relationship?

Yeah, I mean, I did it a lot of addicts.

Like that was a kind of a recurring theme for me until i was just like okay no you know and like i think that you know part of the part of the problem i think when you're romantically involved with someone who is in active addiction is that there's no logic right so you try to reason with them and you try to go like okay well can't you see that if you do this then it hurts me and then i feel this way or like

you did that i watched you do it and it's like they live in a completely different reality that they've constructed to

you know as a as a survival mechanism to not think about the fact that they're an active addiction you know what i mean so it's like you're arguing with someone or you're reasoning with someone based on reality and like that's not their reality so there there's no

you can't You can't like reason with someone who's not living in a world of reason.

And then it turns into like this cognitive dissonance, like thought spiral where you start to feel like you're crazy you start to go insane because there's no growth it feels like growth when they're loop right they're not on drugs so then you're getting closer and you feel like oh we're so back and then it happens again and then you're like wait no but then the progress that feels like progress it's just you're just getting a little bit back to like normal

it's like it's a really really difficult spiral that i like empathize with anyone going through it right now that's listening of like you're not crazy and i do agree that a lot of people in those positions want to fix things.

You can't fix someone that's going through that.

And I think a lot of times we feel like we can.

Yeah.

You can't.

And I know it's easier said than done, but like once you get out of those moments, you obviously have clarity.

But when you're in it, like I just have empathy for like friends going through it or people listening, like it's fucking hard.

And again, there is no solution that we're providing today.

I think it's just like talking about the real shit that you go through.

I needed someone to tell me at that time, like, you're not a bad person if you leave someone who's like

hurting you.

You know what I mean?

Because, like, I was always kind of like making excuses for those things and being like, oh,

but what kind of person am I if I leave someone who's like in this great of need?

And I really needed someone to be like, baby, that is not your responsibility.

You know what I mean?

Especially because I was just so young.

And also, I had to unlearn this thing that I was going through at that time where I was like,

I've spent so long in just like misery wanting to fix this person

what if they get better one day and then someone else gets to have the better version of them that I worked so hard to build and you're and it's like that is what kept me in it was being like well no one day like they're gonna get better and then someone else is gonna get to have the version of them that I always dreamed would existed and all I got was just like the suffering and then what am I?

I'm just like the lesson.

I'm the martyr.

I'm the catalyst.

I exist in their life just so that they could go be better for someone else like and I was like determined to not have that because it also it felt like losing I had to also deconstruct that too that thing of like winning and losing I was like no baby this is your life This isn't about winning or losing, you know

I don't know sorry

I'm more just like speechless because I don't think I've ever heard someone like articulate it so perfectly that I can imagine everyone listening right now is like maybe like pulling over to the side of the road.

Just like have a have a pause because it's so fucking real of like most of those relationships, you go to the very possible end to the point that like you even are at risk of your own life when you go that fucking far down with someone.

So to leave feels like, but what was this all for?

And it's like, it's just gonna keep going.

Yeah, it feels like giving up, but it's not.

It's like making, you're making like a.

It's like it is a hard choice.

I think that I started learning like in a way you really do become someone when you're spending spending that amount of time with them and you're like connecting with them on an energetic level that much.

Where now, like, if I look at my partner and I wouldn't want to be them,

if I wouldn't want to be just like them, then like, I probably shouldn't be with them.

Like, you should kind of really only be spending that amount of time and putting that much love and connection and vulnerability into a person if, like, you know,

if you would be okay

becoming them as a result, yeah, you know,

you're preaching right now.

I'm like, keep going.

You're giving us a TED Talk.

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In one of your poems, you wrote, I won't love a man unless he is angry because of my father.

How did normalizing anger in these relationships that you were having make you more willing to put up with the things that they were doing?

Hmm, I think that I,

well, first of all, I had to change the way that I talked to myself.

You know what I mean?

Like, I had a therapist once who was like, um,

was like, I was, I was talking to them about a partner and I was like, they just like

constantly tell me or make me feel like I'm not special or like, you know, I'm

like,

I'm embarrassing or like, I'm weak, or I'm like, I don't know, just like all these things.

And the person was like, okay, well, can I ask you a question?

Like,

do you think you're special?

And I was like, no.

Was like, I'm no.

I don't know.

Like, what?

Like, I'm better than everybody else?

No, I don't think that.

She she was.

I'm not gonna ask you, ask you, do you think you're special?

And I was like, no, and she was like, and what do you tell yourself, like, in those situations?

Like, how do you talk to yourself?

And I was like, well, I just try to remind myself, like, you know, like, you have to be humble and like you're not better than everybody else.

And like, you're not special.

And, like, you know, and she was like, okay.

She was like, so if that's how you talk to yourself,

then when someone else talks to you the same way,

you're not going to notice that that's out of the norm.

You know what I mean?

Like, that's if you're, if you're, if you're communicating with yourself in that way, like, if you believe those things,

you know, and I was like, yeah, but it's one thing for me to humble myself, but I want my partner to build me up.

And they were like, no, you have to build yourself up.

That's not, you can't depend on another person to do that, which was a really interesting conversation because I feel like sometimes we go into therapy so often when we're struggling with relationships and we're like, what's wrong with all these people?

And then there comes a part where you have to take responsibility.

You know, like one of the things I started I had to take responsibility for to end up in a healthy relationship was sort of this like toxic empathy and like this um

this sort of like toxic um

uh

not like people pleasing but

I was like

I was realizing that if I don't set clear boundaries for myself and people repeatedly cross those boundaries, it's my fault because I'm not giving them, I'm not communicating with them or giving them a chance to learn that that's a boundary.

And then also it's building up, building up, building up, building up.

And then I'm blowing up out of resentment, but they're confused because I never told them that that boundary was being crossed.

And so, you know, that was a moment of where I was like, oh, God, like, I have, I have to also take responsibility, you know, or like, cause I went through a phase, I think, where I was really like, I don't even.

Like, I don't even ask my partner for anything.

Like, I take care of all my own stuff.

I don't bring myself into the relationship.

Like, I'm not asking them to like support me or emotionally or whatever.

Like I literally just like I take care of all my own shit and I take care of them.

And like still they can't even like be there for me in the 5% I'm actually asking them to.

And she was like, well, you're not showing up honestly.

She was like, you're not being yourself.

She was like, you think that they're being like dishonest or they're being disingenuous.

Like, bitch, so are you.

And just because you think it's in a nice way doesn't mean that it's okay.

Like you're not like this like self-sacrificing act or whatever is actually you showing up and lying to them.

And that shook me because when she first said it, I was like, well, no, I'm, I didn't do anything wrong.

I was like, why are you telling me I did something wrong?

And then I had to look at that and I had to be like, damn, okay, you're right.

You're right.

If I'm showing up dishonestly, even if it's well intending, I'm just as bad as it.

Them.

You have a great therapist.

I'm like, who is this therapist?

We all need this person.

No, it's so fucking true, like not communicating something to your partner that you're like, something is like festering inside of you and you're watching it all the time being so upset.

And they have no fucking idea you're upset about it it's like how would they know you're upset if you don't tell them you're upset

in one of your new songs panic attack i was listening to it and i was like this is the most relatable thing i've ever fucking heard and so many people when they hear the song are gonna be like yes thank you walzy i am uh i have i have too been there you talk about struggling essentially to differentiate like am i having this like these panic attack feelings or am i falling in love and like what is the fucking difference can you talk about from your experience, like,

how those two are kind of similar in the beginning phase of a relationship?

Yeah, I think, like, you know, if you're like anxiously attached, like, you kind of get those feelings of like nervousness, like, and it's really easy to misinterpret those.

I said this a long time ago.

I have like a song from like a couple years ago from an album, Manic, a song called Graveyard, where like in the bridge, I say, it's funny how the warning signs can feel like butterflies, you know?

And so, like, I've kind of touched on this before.

panic attack is like a more expanded version of it, which is like, you know, there is that moment kind of of like, you know, your heart's freaking beating out of its chest when their name pops up on your phone.

What's that about?

Is it because you're now entering this like dopamine cycle of like, you know, you actually aren't sure?

Like if you're not sure they're going to answer you and then it excites you and they do.

I don't think that's love.

I don't.

think so.

Like you shouldn't be putting that level of energy into a person if you're not sure that they're going to have the decency to respond to your message.

It's so confusing.

And I love that you brought up graveyard because I was like going to reference that.

And I'm like, no, but we have like a new and improved version of panic attacks over here.

They are.

And I feel like those butterfly warning signs are so easily misconstrued in the beginning phase.

And I empathize a lot because it's hard until you start to just have your life experiences and go through multiple relationships.

And it's that, again, us not giving you guys the answer, but knowing like the more you experience, the easier it is to kind of be like, oh, no, no, no, I've felt that way before and I know how this goes down.

Like I need to pump the brakes, but the beginning of relationships can be very hard to discern.

Yeah.

Is this excitement or is this because this person is essentially like love bombing me or whatever the fuck is going on?

Or is it like slightly mentally abusive, but I'm seeing it as like, he finally is giving me attention.

Oh my god.

God, I mean, it's a validation.

also toxic like toxicity in relationships is addictive it is it's absolutely addictive it's just like a cycle of like norepinephrine like that's like an adrenaline chemical you know what i mean and like dopamine and like you start to build patterns and like neural pathways to the ups and downs of feeling that like rejection validation rejection validation rejection validation and i remember when i kind of like

when i had had like some distance from like my most toxic relationship and I was in relationships that were like a little bit more content I do remember at times being kind of like

and I don't want to say this as any kind of like diss to the people who

might hear themselves in this conversation because you know this this isn't this isn't a diss but I did find myself kind of bored and like not bored with them but bored with the lack of intensity and the lack of the up and down and kind of just like

wondering if

because I had experienced such highs and lows in a toxic relationship, if every other form of love was gonna feel

like less than satisfactory to me.

So

real.

Yeah.

Like that's so fucking real.

It's not true because I'm very much in love now and I'm getting

all the

ring girl.

I will say to anyone listening, that's not true.

But I do think there's a period of time where like safety comes, where you just kind of feel like

it just doesn't hit the same.

Right.

And like you can't go back.

I definitely was like, oh, I wonder if I'm just going to be like, what is it for me?

Is it contentment?

Is it settling?

Is it settling for safety?

Do I get to have that same intensity without all of the

danger, you know?

And I feel like something I had to learn along the way, and it's everyone has to like take their time with it.

Is like, you're right, the toxicity is addicting, but there's such a difference between like safe and boring are just not the same thing.

And it can take you a really long time, but understandably, if you're on this fucking roller coaster ride and then you're slowly just like sitting in the little the like the game that you're just like riding around and it's slow, you're like, this isn't fucking fun.

I want to be screaming my head off and I want to have my hair all over the place.

It's like, what if we told you that like 10 people died on that ride like last week?

And you're like, well, it was fun though like you know what i mean keep going back and it's like why do we do this to ourselves because i was gonna ask you about like you have written about these like volatile relationships that you've been in and like when you do get out of them i guess you just answered it of like what do you learn about yourself then when you get into new relationships that aren't as volatile and it's like i guess your answer was like kind of learning to be okay with peace a little bit yes and no okay because then what happened was is i was like okay i guess this is it i guess i'm just settling for contentment and then i realized that that wasn't true either.

That was me putting safety before my happiness.

You know what I mean?

Because I was going to say, like, if you have any advice to maybe someone that's watching this right now, that is like fully in that cycle of whether it's with an abusive partner or a toxic partner and they just can't get out of it.

And they're like, but I'll never find something that makes me feel.

Oh, you will.

You will.

You have to heal first.

When you get out, it's not going to feel that way right away because you need to heal.

And then like that new healed version of you is gonna like you know I don't know it's kind of like when you get a wound and then you know the wound hurts and it hurts and it hurts but at least you're feeling something and then it scars and the scar is numb and you're like I don't have no feeling here but then eventually new skin grows and you get to feel again but it's not it doesn't hurt you know what I mean no it's so it's so hard to tell people when they're in it we're like I'm promising I know you're if you leave and you get out of it and you heal it's going to get better yeah I want to ask you like as an artist because I feel like a lot of people have these moments where they collaborate with someone they were in a relationship with and you've done that in the past.

And you have this like very famous song with someone that you have like talked about like not having a good relationship with.

Can you describe the feeling of like having a piece of art tied to a very like hurtful and not

like positive experience?

I think the one thing I've been really smart about is they're never my songs.

I'm always on their songs.

So then, like, that's your problem, not mine.

I get to do my whole catalog and I don't have to deal with you.

So, like, sorry that some of your biggest songs have me on them.

I don't know what to tell you.

But I tend to be sort of the gatekeeper about my art for that same reason where I'm like, yeah, I'll get on your thing, but like.

not mine, you know, like this needs to, this, I need to preserve this for, for myself.

You know, I think whether I'm on a record with someone and are in, like, you know, the relationship changes or not, or I just wrote a song about them, like, songs just carry so much cellular energy.

But the good thing about them is that they do evolve.

You know what I mean?

Like, I've gotten on stage and sang the same song, like, over, like, I've been singing Without Me for fucking years, you know, and every time I sing it, it feels different.

It feels like it's about a different thing.

And, like, you know, I have so many songs that are about so many different times in my life or like experiences.

And, like, I don't know.

I think that,

I think that

I'll never shy away from being

honest, you know?

It's like, and if you have to deal with the consequences of that later, then so be it.

But like, I would rather regret, I would rather regret

being

honest and being reflective of where I was in my life at that time than regret not saying something or doing something that I wish that I had.

I don't know.

I just

a great fucking answer.

Yeah, No features on this album, though, just me, nobody else getting in the way of my narrative, period.

Um, there is a ring on your finger.

We've gone through childhood, we've gone through your previous relationships and going through the mud to get to congratulations.

You're engaged, yes,

I am like fucking married.

I know, it's crazy, it's insane.

I have to get all the tea from you.

No, I have to tell you everything too.

It's insane, and it still feels weird to say, like, I have a husband.

Like, Like what is happening?

You're a fiancé.

I know.

This is exciting.

How did the proposal happen?

Can you tell me?

Sweet, sweet.

Tell me.

So he proposed in Barcelona.

It's kind of like where we first started hanging out.

So it's like really special to us because we had this like kind of this like these few days where we were like

we were hanging out a bunch and

it was very like not you know, I wasn't sure that I was ready.

And so it was kind of like,

you know, but I was also kind of like, you're literally the like most amazing, like, smartest, hottest, nicest person I've ever met in my life.

So also, like, please don't go anywhere.

I'm gonna, I'm trying to figure it out.

Like, you know what I mean?

Stay here.

Yeah, give me a little bit.

Yeah.

And, uh, you know, so he, yeah, he proposed in Barcelona.

It was really sweet.

And

immediately afterwards, he left to go shoot a show for like six months in Canada.

And I was like, okay, bye.

Stop.

Yeah, so we haven't really had like the chance to be

engaged.

Right.

You know what I mean?

Um,

but he's coming home, and you know, just in time for me to go start like all the album promo or whatever.

And, um,

you know, I think we're going to get to have like our, our time then.

But I never wanted to be married.

Interesting.

Never.

Never.

What changed?

Avan.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I never thought that I I would ever want to be married.

And then, like,

I just knew I wanted to marry him.

And I couldn't explain why, because I would deconstruct marriage, like, from such a logical perspective beforehand.

Like, I was so, like, practical, survival, like, you know,

uh, like, fiscal, like, about it.

Like, you know, the way that I was always, I always broke down marriage.

And, like, I couldn't really understand the point of marrying just from, like, an emotional point of view.

It was like, well, if you love each other, then just be together.

Why do you get married?

Yes.

I didn't understand it.

And then, I don't know, it was was just something with him where i just knew i wanted to marry him and like i can't even explain why you know what i mean because i do i love him in such a way that i feel like we would be just as fine if we didn't but something about that makes me want to do it more I relate a lot to what you're saying because I was very vocal.

Like even when I met Matt, I was like, I don't want to get married.

I never want to get married.

Like, I thought it would threaten my independence.

I was, I felt the same way.

Like, why do we need a piece of paper?

And then I just like knew

he was the person if I was going to do it.

And I think that's so beautiful that it was just like something within you is like, I know this is right.

I just knew.

And that's like, how did you guys meet?

We met kind of just like floating around.

He was like floating around Europe and so was I.

We were both doing like some like fashion week stuff and some like I was playing some festivals and like

you know we i we'd been like aware of each other like we followed each other on Instagram.

You know what I mean?

But it was like

and we neither of us can really remember if we had like met in passing before that.

I think I would remember, so I don't think we have, you know what I mean?

But um,

I always, I had like, I always had like a weird feeling about him, you know.

And then, you know, I, I, I got pregnant and I was, you know, with my son's father, and then like, I didn't have any feelings about anyone because I was like super committed to like making my family work and like, you know, this new life as like a mom with like my son.

And so like,

um, I wasn't really thinking about any of that kind of stuff and then i became a single mom and i was like i am never dating anyone ever again and it's gonna be i had so much to figure out i was like it's just me and my son and like you know and i was also really sick i was really sick in like a life changing way yep i was like not thinking about dating at all yeah and so then we met we like met up for a drink one night and i just remember walking into this bar this like hotel bar and he was just like sitting in this like little beer garden at the hotel.

And I walked in and I saw him.

And the only way I can explain it was, is like,

you know, in like a vampire movie, when the vampire like glamours you, like, they do that thing that makes you like, yes, whatever.

Like, it felt like that was happening to me.

Like, I walked in, I'll like, I walked in and I was like, hey.

And he was like, hi.

And I was like, hi.

Hi.

Okay.

See Edward Cullen Dew.

No, he straight up like mind tricked me.

Like, and he wasn't doing it on purpose.

He just is very charming.

Like, you know what I mean?

Like, you.

Yeah, and I was just like, whoa, there was just like this, like, this warmth and this like light just like emanating off of him.

It was so compelling.

It was so alluring.

I just like sitting at the table, just wanted to lean over the table, sit closer to him.

Like, I was so just like.

Yeah.

drawn to him.

Like, I don't know how to explain it.

It was so, it was different than like when you meet someone and you're like, I could see this working and I'm like planning in my head and I'm like doing the calculation of like how this would work out, and like, okay, you're like that, and I'm like this, and this would be good.

It was just like, I was like, whoa, I was head empty.

I was not head full of

I'm gonna get him math.

I was head empty, I was just like, Hi,

yeah, I don't know.

We're all just like swooning in here, like, whoa, keep going.

No, that is like that's when you know there's something special.

What if you had to say, What do you love the most about him?

Hmm,

that's hard.

hard i mean he's so

like freakishly

like adjusted isn't the right word but like there's nothing i could ever bring up that would freak him out there's like no conversation we can't have like in like a

like he's so solution oriented like

everything

between the two of us is always like

it's always with the the goal of solution and bettering, and like, you know, we're never like locked into like

who's gonna win this or who's gonna whatever.

Also, he's just like,

I remember when I first, when I first started seeing him, I was like, what's it gonna be?

I was like, you are like

super successful.

You've been in this business for like a really long time.

You're smoking hot, and everyone on the planet knows it.

I was like, what's wrong wrong with you?

And he was so nice, and he was so family-oriented.

And, like,

I was like, Oh, you're about to be the biggest psychopath of them all.

You're about to ruin my life.

You're about to be the final boss.

Like, you can't be like this.

I was like, there's going to be what, like, whatever's wrong with you is going to be like FBI's most wanted.

Like, you're going to be secretly, like, have bodies in your basement.

Like, something, you have to have the worst thing ever wrong with you.

And then it was like, I was kind of like unsure for like a while.

And then, like, you know, as time went on, well, first I met his parents and they're fucking lovely and so that's where i was kind of like oh maybe this is real maybe he is just that great because he's great parents like raised him really well yep and then you know he

he has got he has a relationship with my son now you know and just like watching the way that he shows up for my son in like such a authentic way i was like okay you really are just like the best person

and Then came the panic of me being like, well, I don't deserve someone that great.

And so I had to kind of like, it was short-lived, but I had that little process of like, whoa, oh my God, if he really is that great, then like, what the hell is he doing with me?

You know, and I, and then I had to kind of like,

I had to start seeing myself.

I had to value myself more, you know what I mean?

Where I had to be like, well, I'm also really ambitious and I'm a really good mom.

And like, I create like a really welcoming and like safe environment.

I'm really patient.

I'm really

communicative and I'm rational and I am, you know, supportive and proactive.

And I got to start seeing myself like in that way

to have peace and to not enter like a cycle of insecurity, you know.

Dude, that must have been so refreshing because I think when you are met by a healthy,

good partner who we all have our own shit, but like someone that's genuinely trying to be like, no, I really want to make this work and I don't want to fuck you up and I don't want to be fucked up and I want to do this together.

Like you just start to raise your standard for yourself of like how you are going to show up.

And like you said, it's so beautiful like with your child knowing how you care for a whole ass human being and how you show up for your child to see a partner like come into your life and be able to not only like embrace you guys, but also add value to the dynamic.

Like that's so fucking refreshing and probably nice for you.

Yeah, it also forced me to do everything like really, really in the right way.

You know what I mean?

Like becoming a single mom was like a real grown-up wake-up call for me.

That was like a moment where I was like, I can't just like,

you know, skate past this.

Like, you know, this has changed the entire dynamic of my life.

Like, it's changed everything about like my own feelings of hurt and wanting to act on those versus like what's right for my child.

And like, you know,

I had to,

I had to, like,

I had already like speedrun grown up when I became a mom, but then I had to like secondary like speedrun grow up where like I grew out of that not wanting to be inconvenient or not wanting to be a problem or not wanting to be clingy or not wanting to be extra.

Like I had to grow out of that to date again as a single mom.

Whereas like I wasn't in a situation where like, you know,

I'm if you're like, I couldn't be in a situation where I'm like texting a guy or like a girl or talking to whoever.

And I'm like, hey, so like, do you want to make plans for next week?

And they're like, oh, I'm not really like big into plans.

Like, I'll see you when I see you.

Like, I couldn't be like, okay, like, I had to be like, I'm a mom.

I have a schedule.

Do you want to see me or not?

And if you don't, then like, bye.

You know what I mean?

And so it was like, I, it just, like, it forced me out of being able to

like accidentally.

Like, people, please, I got to like make myself smaller because I was like, I can't.

So, like, what's up?

You know, that is like so beautiful to hear.

And I'm so happy for you.

And like, everything you've shared today, I I feel like that has like beautifully led you to where you're at now, where like you are engaged, you are a mother, like you are so successful.

You have this new album coming out, which we have to talk about.

Like, like I said, I was listening to it, and I'm like, there is a lot in this album.

Yeah.

And it's called The Great Impersonator.

What is the meaning behind the title?

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what is the meaning behind the title i think it's you know it's sort of

It's like a double entendre.

Okay.

You know, like on the one hand, I think it kind of touches on some of what we've talked about this time is me figuring out that Halsey's kind of serving as more of an alter ego than like just a stage name.

Yep.

And like kind of admitting that and like coming forward and being like, I've built a career off of being really honest and authentic.

And maybe I haven't been as honest and authentic as I thought the past couple of years.

Maybe I have more to say.

And what forced me into that was obviously getting so sick that I thought I was going to die.

You know, like when you think you're going to die, you have an existential crisis that is just like indescribable to

your former self.

Like you kind of have to like live through it to understand it and like i just started looking at myself and

being like okay if you do die is this

you're happy with this this is how everyone's gonna remember you it's like the last thing you did last thing you said like have you know we tell ourselves a lot of time we have more time and like we do but like nothing is promised to us so there's times where i was like like example like the song about my dad i told you i was like i was like i'll do it on the next album i'll do it on the next album because I was too scared.

And with this one, I was like, might not be a next album, bitch.

Put it out.

Speak your truth.

There might not be a next album.

You know, so it kind of like forced me into the situation where I was like, I have to just act and do and be as truthful as I possibly can.

But I started thinking about fate a lot.

I started thinking, like, okay, does everything happen for a reason?

Right.

Like, I'm born in 1994.

Does that, is that how I end up halsey?

Is because like I'm born at the right time, at the right moment.

Like, if I'm born 10 years earlier, five years later, do I end up famous?

do i end up an art teacher do i end up like in jail like what am i you know and then so i was like what if i debuted in the 70s like what if i debuted in the 80s the 90s like i started exploring all these different like versions of me making music in like different decades so in a sense i'm kind of like impersonating other

you know stars of of that time and kind of doing an exploration or like a thought experiment on that because it's like

the big thing that kept coming up when I got sick was a lot of people like in the medical field were pretty adamant with me.

Like you're sick because of your job.

Interesting.

Some said it just directly and some, you know, in not so many words, just kind of like, well, like stress and like lack of sleep and traveling and jet lag, poor nutrition, putting strain on your body, like these things can trigger autoimmune diseases.

And the particular autoimmune disease, I have lupus, can trigger,

you know, it can trigger leukemia, lymphoma, like a lot of, a lot of like blood cancers and like lymph cancers are more, more common in people who have chronic, you know, autoimmune conditions.

And so they all kind of just trickle down to this, like, you're stressed out all the time kind of thing.

So that led me to be like,

you know, becoming Halsey was like the craziest thing that's ever happened to me in my life, but like, is this a consequence of that?

You know, and like, does it go this way?

no matter what if i become halsey's is how my life goes am i a single mom am i sick am i like is there any way to like beat that fate or beat that destiny

can i ask like how are you feeling today pretty good okay yeah i like i came back from

i came back from new york i was there for the vmas and i noticed i was kind of starting to have a flare like a lupus flare okay um

And I haven't had one in a little while because, you know, my disease has been like, you know, in remission.

And I was kind of like

thinking about it.

I was thinking about how like a lot of my fans or a lot of my audience that's also dealing with chronic illness, they say to me all the time, like, I don't know how you do that.

Like, you must be so much stronger than me.

Like, I can barely get out of bed.

I can barely go to school.

And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

I don't want you thinking that

I'm...

stronger than you or like you can't accomplish as much as me.

Like

I went and did the VMAs.

I worked really hard that whole week and then I had a flare as a consequence of that that's reality that's the risk and you guys like the fans like you're the reward yeah and i have to kind of like balance that every time i do something it's just like knowing that that's a possibility and kind of adapting to that new normal and like so what happens then is like i have to rest or i have to go get treatment or i have to like you know i have to change certain things but it's by no means because like i'm built differently than anyone else it's like i'm also in a significant position of privilege compared to most people who are dealing with chronic illness you know in terms of like you know the the treatments i can get the access that i can get like um

and so i'm just using all of those things to kind of to mitigate what is my new normal i definitely had a situation like a couple

a couple like weeks ago um and that's why i'm kind of like chuckling to myself about this flare because I did the thing where I was like, I'm feeling so good.

I don't know if I need treatment anymore.

And so I was like, I'm going to stop treatment.

Like, I don't want to put this stuff in my body.

Like, I'm going to be fine.

It's like, I was like, bitch, you didn't learn your lesson when you did that with antidepressants.

Like, first of all, but then like, you know, I was like, I'm feeling really good.

Like, I don't think I need to do it anymore.

And like, you know, I'm putting all this, these medicines in my body.

And like, maybe I can just do it with like diet and like with whatever.

And I stopped for like a little bit.

I like skipped a treatment.

Immediate flare.

I was like on the flight home and like one of the first signs of a lupus flare is you get this butterfly shaped rash across your cheeks.

Yeah, I got up to like, go use the restroom on the plane.

I looked in the mirror, and I was like, fuck,

you've got to be fucking kidding me.

And I kind of like had to like, I like walk ashamed back to my seat and like sat down and was like, damn.

And that was a sad moment for me because I was like, I had felt so good.

Like, you know, I was like on TV and on the carpet.

And I was like, I'm doing it again.

I'm great.

And everything's good.

And like, it made me like kind of emotional because I was kind of like, I'm still sick.

That's still reality.

Like, this is forever now.

And that was hard.

You know, I couldn't just be like, well, that was crazy.

Those two years.

Haha, I'm moving on.

Like, I had to be like, no, this is still, this is forever.

I'm still like coming to terms with that, like, little by little.

I can only imagine how hard that is.

And like, I think in different capacities, everyone can find a way to relate to that feeling of like, oh, no, no, no, I don't need this anymore.

I'm going to be fine.

And then you go back to not being fine.

And you're like, this is so emotionally heavy to deal with.

But I do think that it's incredible that you have been open as much as you want to be about that.

Because I do, again, believe it helps other people realize like someone that is as successful as you also is just not living this perfect fairy tale life and everything's fucking fine.

Like everything you're writing about in this album is so fucking real.

Like, what is the hardest song that like you wrote to write?

The Life of the Spider.

Really?

Yeah, that was like the hardest.

It's like, just like me in a piano, kind of sounds like a voice note, like a little bit and every time i hear it i cry

just like hearing my voice like in that state

and i wrote that song about being sick and about just like feeling like such a burden and also just feeling disgusting i felt so gross and so terrible about myself when i was sick it's like you know i was like

i was really gaunt and like my face changed and my face had just my face and body had just changed because I just had a baby.

You know, I was pregnant, and like, I went through all those changes, and then it changed again, like, this when I got sick so fast, you know?

And

I was like vomiting, but then, like, you know, I was like, brushing my teeth made me scared because I was scared it was going to induce more vomiting.

And, like, I was,

I was, I was just so sick and so gross.

And, like, I felt revolting.

Like, I didn't feel good about myself at all.

And, like, you know, I felt

I felt, you know, kind of trapped in like this cycle of feeling resentment from

people close to me, you know.

Some real, some imagined, you know, think both.

Classic.

And

just kind of this feeling of like

everyone had depended on me for so long,

and I kind of like it was a hell of my own design because I told everybody for so long, like, I don't need help, I can take care of myself.

And then I needed help, and everybody was like, What do you mean?

Like, you conditioned us to believe that you take care of yourselves, and now you're getting mad at us because we're not helping, but we don't know how to because you've never let us before, you know.

And so that was really, really hard.

But also, just kind of feeling like, God, what a, how dare I inconvenience you so much by

being dying.

Right.

I was gonna say, like, like, but again, going back to everything you've shared today, like, you're used to being the one that's taking care of and fixing everyone.

So, like, to ask for help must feel just so unnatural to you.

Yeah.

But, like, you need help from people, you need support, you need people to be there for you.

But it's hard to ask when you're someone that is not used to asking.

Yeah.

A big thing for me me was like a lot of my relationships i felt like because i'm traveling all the time and because i'm gone and because i am really like insulated and self-sufficient in that way where it's like you know i feel like when you're in the public eye or like you are

like you know you're financially like secure in the way that like you are in the business it changes your friendships right because like i'm moving right i don't have to ask my friends to come help me move because i'm just gonna move and like at the moving company and do the thing or like i need someone to pick me up from a surgery or like take me to the dentist or like you know

whatever and it's like i'll get a driver it's like you know you lose that kind of like village community we look out for each other kind of thing but then on the flip side i'm always taking care of stuff for other people right you know what i mean so it changes the dynamics of the relationship i'm also a spiritual person so i also believe sometimes that like you will end up in situations where if your like spirit guide or your guardian angel or whatever it is that you believe knows that you won't make a hard decision for yourself.

They'll kind of put you in a position where the other person does it for you, but it's for you.

You know what I mean?

Yes.

Like you can feel it when it's happening.

Yeah.

This whole album is incredible.

I'm so excited for you.

Last two questions, I promise.

Okay.

One, what are you most excited to perform?

What song?

Okay.

There's two for two different reasons.

I really can't wait to play Panic Attack because it's just like it's such a musical song.

Like it's got like the piano, the piano is so warm and the guitar is so great and the drums are so like, I just imagine I'm going gonna get on stage and feel like I'm a part of like a big band, like a 70s big band, you know what I mean?

And like with all the musicians on stage just like twirling around.

Like, it's very Laurel Canyon, like, you know, it's got that like Fleetwood Mac vibe.

So I can't wait to do that because I just feel like it's gonna be so like classic.

Um, but then definitely the only living girl in LA.

It's a six-minute song, so like I don't know how I'm gonna play it live, but I feel like there's so many fun moments for the fans to like join in on, like ad-libs and stuff, that it's gonna feel like we're performing it together.

and I love when a song feels like you and the audience are doing it together not like you're doing it at them you know it's so sad and beautiful and listening to it I was like Halsey

I wanted to like give you a hug I was like this is so fucking sad but it's so it's really an incredible song I mean every single song is incredible and you're such an incredible writer but I'm just so happy for you because

You are clearly so talented and everything that you have gone through in your career and your personal life to see this new work of art that you've put together is truly incredible.

And I wouldn't say that if I didn't feel that way.

Like listening to it in my car, I also chose to listen to it in the car because I was like, I need this in the car.

And I, I'm so happy I got to meet you because your energy and your spirit and just who you are as a person, like it does change my fandom over you even more.

Like I feel like an even bigger fan after getting to speak with you today.

Thank you for like taking the time today because it was, I think the daddy gang is going to freak out over this.

And I know your fans will, but thank you for giving me the time.

Oh my gosh, of course.

Also, you have to teach me how to plan a wedding.

I don't know what I'm doing.

Trust me.

I have no idea.

I'm really overwhelmed.

Trust me, I've got you because I was like, I didn't even know what I would want to wear.

I was like the antithesis of a bride when I first started.

And like, I figured it out.

Well, I told you, I never wanted to be married.

So when I'm talking, people are like, when you were a little girl, what did you dream about?

Nothing.

And I was like, I didn't.

I have no idea.

Right.

Like, being successful.

I'm just obsessed with my fiancé.

And I just like fucking

want to, like, I want to crawl inside his skin and be like a part of him.

And like, I need a wedding where like I can either do that and it's not weird or like it.

There's something in place that prevents me from trying to do it, you know?

Palsy.

I could not relate more to you.

And I will give you all of the wedding tips that you need.

Thank you for coming on Caller Daddy with Honor.

Thank you.

Thanks for having me.

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